IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2013-11-15

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john_______Hi, is there somebody please?00:16
john_______I have a question...00:20
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chainsawbikejohn_____ ask it :)00:22
DocScrutinizer05uhuh, "first 500 preorders will be served by DNA at 27th of November" Jolla00:24
infobotQuestions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.00:24
DocScrutinizer05longest e-peen I even seeeeeeeeeeen00:25
DocScrutinizer05vi____ been humble against it00:26
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john_______Ok, I'm new here, thank you for the many tips. I would like to ask how fast the neo900's CPU is compared to the N900's00:49
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infobotQuestions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.01:08
john_______sixwheeledbeast, checked alrady, no answer to my question01:09
john_______2x faster, 10 times faster?01:09
john_______Both are same Cortex A801:09
sixwheeledbeastthe specs are side by side01:09
john_______3 years old01:09
john_______I know, but can't find the neo900's on Wiki01:09
john_______If it's only the clock bump, it would be the same as overclocking the n900's CPU, no?01:10
sixwheeledbeast"faster" is subjective IMO01:10
sixwheeledbeastIt clearly says the CPU's are different 3430 600Mhz Vs 3730 1Ghz01:17
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john_______Do you also know some things about the GPU? I there HW h264 support?01:19
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sixwheeledbeastNope. It's all proposed at the moment anyway. But I am not the best person to ask.01:23
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john_______Thx anyway sixwheeledbeast01:26
DocScrutinizer05john_______: for CPU yes, it's just the clock, and DM3730 runs at 1GHz while N900 runs at 500(600)MHz. However GPU is about 2 times faster and more powerful, and the bottlenext RAM is two times minimum, which makes for a speed increaso of magnitudes01:27
john_______Ah, thx DocScrutinizer0501:28
john_______I saw the N900 had some trouble decoding media easily, and I would like to use it to watch mkv's smoothly01:28
DocScrutinizer05and 3530 is h.264 base profile while it seems dm3730 can handle high profile01:28
john_______Really love your project!01:29
Defiantup to 720p01:29
DocScrutinizer05yup, high profile01:29
john_______Looks ok to me, will check the ARM though (shouldn't be a beast, but at least it should run smooth)01:30
DocScrutinizer05thread search01:30
DocScrutinizer05I elaborated on DM3730 improved capabilities there01:31
DocScrutinizer05like 20M polygons / second instead of 1001:31
DocScrutinizer05DSP also has more grunt beyond mere clock boost01:32
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john_______(reading the threat you gave me)01:34
john_______Also: owenh seems to have an interesting question, I relay it:01:34
john_______[07:42] <owenh> Hi all, probably it has already been mentioned; what about wireless master (AP) mode on the neo900?01:35
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DocScrutinizer05WLAN module not finalized yet01:36
DocScrutinizer05we will pick the best we can cram in and particularly can buy on low quantities01:36
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DocScrutinizer05please read feasibility study, it elaborated a bit on our options01:37
DocScrutinizer05we need a WLAN module suited for embedded mobile01:38
DocScrutinizer05means it mustn't cut thru battery in 2h01:38
DocScrutinizer05most WLAN chipsets are not optimized for that01:38
DocScrutinizer05since on a laptop it's negligible01:38
DocScrutinizer05you probably wouldn't want a WLAN that needs to get disabled as soon as *the devie* doesn't need to transmit data, would you?01:39
DocScrutinizer05device even01:40
DocScrutinizer05I love it very much that my N900 can idle on IRC and WLAN for 24h easily01:40
DocScrutinizer05and Neo900 must have same capabilities01:41
john_______I love my N900, great phone, excellent, and I love this project, I really do, I hope this gets traction. I also do hope it will be a little bit beefier :)01:41
DocScrutinizer05so AP is a bit down on the priority list of requirements for WLAN module, but we will try to find one that has AP too01:42
john_______Thx DocScrutinizer0501:42
DocScrutinizer05thanks for your interest01:42
john_______I will continue running down the forum for the other info, you've been a great help01:42
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zemmydid anyone think about google service(google music/play) adding it at Musikloud ?12:38
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FIQLTE is planned for neo900, but which frequencys will be supported if you go ahead with the planned modem for that?13:05
FIQtried to research this a bit, but didn't find what I was looking for13:09
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zemmyit's a protocol... using the LTE feature and is an hardware upgrade such as a plugging thing for with microusb13:12
zemmythe protocol does not mean frequency13:12
zemmythe protocol LTE support all its frequencys13:12
FIQzemmy: from what I understand regarding mobile connectivity, operators operate on different frequencies for each protocol (i.e. UMTS, LTE, etc) and that the module used for the connectivity has to support it on at least one of these to be able to use it13:16
FIQperhaps my question wasn't clear enough13:16
kolpFIQ: specific chips for the neo900 have not been decided on, afaik. Also, there is #neo900 ;)13:17
FIQfor example, my current operator has 4 different LTE networks, and one of the alternatives looked at (GTM801) supports 3 of them (found the "feasibility" document), so it seems fine13:18
zemmyyes... frequency is part or that protocol... UMTS and GSM and LTE are all protocols... using different frequencies... that's right... but LTE uses all its frequencies... do you want to read more on wikipedia? maybe you wish reading about your country frequency bandwidth13:18
FIQkolp: all right, didn't know that, ty13:18
FIQ@ #neo900 existed13:18
FIQzemmy: I already found the frequency bandwidth list for my operator, it's fine13:19
zemmyalright then13:19
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WizardNumberNexthello. I have rather unusual problem. I have 3 N900, 1 have busted modem. I am trying to get bootmenu-backupmenu working on one with busted modem. It was working previously, even after full reflash (excluding CMT). Now no matter what I do I cannot seam to make backupmenu working. I would appreatiate any insight.17:13
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WizardNumberNextBTW. The problem is on my 1st n900. I just  have reflashed my 2nd n900 and backupmenu is working there.17:15
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ShadowJKDoes backupmenu install? Does it start?17:34
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stevenmThis has probably been asked before but I'm finding it hard locating a topic about it...   Since MS has acquired the devices division of Nokia... does this mean any of the Nokia-owned portions of Maemo are now owned by MS?  Does this pose a problem?17:52
stevenmOr did MS just get the Lumia-related line of devices17:52
GI_Jackstevenm, maemo is open source and run by the community now17:52
stevenmGI_Jack, I thought it still had some ties to Nokia left - or did all the closed source stuff get re-implemented?17:53
GI_Jackstevenm, closed source stuff, no, but the community still maintains the software, and releases new updates17:53
GI_Jackand adds new features17:53
GI_Jackthere is even a community kernel17:53
stevenmGI_Jack, how can it maintain the closed source stuff without the source?  if nokia has it (and now MS has it) then there is a question about how co-operative they'll be going forward.17:54
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GI_Jacknokia has completely abandoned the n90017:54
GI_Jackthere is no more support for it17:54
GI_Jackclosed source things are going to be things like hardware drivers17:54
GI_Jackthings like the kernel are open, and customizable17:54
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stevenmwell drivers are still important - as is stuff like the skype integration and flash17:55
GI_Jackits a tad of a stumbling block because its stuck at kernel 2.6.28, because nothing later will really work17:55
GI_Jackstevenm, it doesn't change, same as is17:55
stevenmnokia clearly had partnerships with both to integrate those17:55
GI_Jackwell no, skype and flash closed source bits don't get maintained really17:55
GI_Jackadobe ported flash 10 a while ago, but that was it17:55
GI_Jackit runs slow as dogshit anyway17:55
stevenmbut they are a part of maemo - heck skype is integrated with telepathy17:56
GI_Jackthey aren't just willy nilly importing new versions from upstream if thats what your asking17:56
stevenmno that's not what I'm asking17:56
GI_Jacksome vauge concept of "rights"17:57
GI_JackI am sure ms owns the IP rights to the phone17:57
GI_Jackmaemo is enough open source it would be able to work as a community project, none of the closed components are critical17:58
stevenmI'm asking what has Nokia(MS) got left... that should/could be given up to the maemo community to make it more independent... clearly they still have the code to some important bits like drivers, but also useful shared source agreements with skype/flash - and that's just my small understanding - probably more than that17:58
stevenmwell making/receiving calls, making/receiving texts and such is important, using 3g properly, etc.. they're important - as I understand it even nitdroid don't have all that working17:58
GI_Jackstevenm, thats just not going to happen, given they got bought out by microsoft17:58
stevenmGI_Jack, precisely my point17:59
GI_Jackexisting closed source bits need to be re-used as is, meaning using the same kernel 2.6.28, but you can recompile it, and backport features17:59
stevenmyou couldn't today - recompile and release a full version of maemo for the n900... not without their help.  In short the 'maemo community' is a community that pecks and tweaks a dead OS from a company that has turned they're back on it18:00
GI_Jacksuch as the community kernel has a whole host of normal linux features re-added18:00
stevenmthe only remedy is to release a maemo that is re-implemented in a way that can be totally re-producable solely by that community18:00
GI_Jackmaemo is reproducable, if you made your own hardware, with your own drivers, something in the works18:01
GI_Jacksee the link18:01
GI_Jackflash and skype should still run on it18:01
stevenmno maemo isn't reproducable on n90018:02
stevenmnot unless maemo is altered (stripped of bits that can be re-produced) so then it can call itself entirely reproducable18:02
stevenm*can't be18:02
stevenm*can't be re-produced18:03
stevenmyou get what i mean18:03
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GI_Jackits reproducable if you copy the closed source bits, if you want to port it to another device you need drivers18:05
GI_Jackso short of a nightime raid on nokia now microsoft's facilities, thats not likely to happen18:06
GI_Jackthe neo900 will be a motherboard replacement with 4G LTE, a faster chip, and drivers18:07
anYcexcept 3d as far as I understood18:07
stevenmwhich kinda defeats the point, although it looks like an n900 - it's not, it's based off a gta04... and it's not likely that maemo will be pushed as a recommended os for it18:08
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anYcactually, it is expected to become the recommended os18:10
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stevenmanYc, how can it be expected to be the recommended OS when maemo hasn't even had a rerelease that a) has the non-closed stuff taken out and b) is available for more than one device!18:11
sixwheeledbeastI would expect so, due to the support and packages from here.18:11
stevenmthe neo900 isn't really an n90018:11
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stevenmunless there is a downloadable maemo image/installer for another phone that isn't an n900?18:11
stevenmbecause if not then it's just a team of people tinkering with old abandoned firmware18:12
WizardNumberNextanything what is not exactly same in both hardware and software isn't n900, stop arging fact18:12
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WizardNumberNextI wish I could get some normal GNU/Linux distro working on SS4, but I didn't hear that's possible yet18:13
stevenmnot that I'm a fan of the ubuntu touch phone thingy os (whatever the heck they're calling it now)... but at least there is a list of devices it can be installed on and instructions18:14
stevenmmaemo is an n900 only, tweaked version of what is left from a nokia premade image18:14
anYcI don't know their plans for flash & skype but they're working on the remaining parts to create an open phone (except the firmware stuff)18:14
GI_JackI'd be fine, if I could get GNU userland running alongside Android on popular android phones18:14
stevenmGI_Jack, yeah that'd be nice18:14
WizardNumberNextif you are displeased with SP of our times, then build your own from scratch - nobody is preventing you from doing that18:15
stevenmthe SP?18:15
GI_Jackthe closeds I've seen is a port of busybox18:15
WizardNumberNextwhy alongside android?18:15
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GI_JackWizardNumberNext, I'll get right on that, and I'll mabey have to pay $10k for a phone, because of volume of scale18:15
GI_Jackand I don't have the man hours to put in, nor the research facility18:15
WizardNumberNextif on VM, then I understand, but android would be guest in my scheme18:15
stevenmi'm not displeased with maemo if that's what you mean... as an OS it rocks (more than meego)... i just want to see it _actually_ become a portable OS... not just the leftover firmware that only runs on the hardware it was designed for18:16
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stevenmthat's the first step - not this neo90018:16
WizardNumberNextI would love to see maemo on other devices, apart from hw dependable code, rest can happily run even os ss418:17
GI_Jackor any portable working phone OS, that works with a good number of modems and sound cards18:17
GI_Jackthe bare essentials to work as a phone18:17
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stevenmWizardNumberNext, 'os ss4'?18:18
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WizardNumberNextGI_Jack: Linux Kernel is very portable and can run on many SP18:18
WizardNumberNexts/even os ss4/even on ss418:18
GI_JackWizardNumberNext, its not the kernel, its drivers18:18
WizardNumberNexts/even os ss4/even on ss4/18:19
infobotWizardNumberNext meant: s/even on ss4/even on ss418:19
GI_JackAndroid already runs on those devices so the kernel is not the issue18:19
stevenmwoah that's a lot more closed packages than I thought18:19
WizardNumberNextdrivers are in krernel18:19
WizardNumberNextloads of them - just have a look18:19
GI_JackI know18:19
stevenmand of course the reason why the maemo community can't make a whole new image right?   instead it's just "install the lastest one from nokia then..."18:19
WizardNumberNext3.8 support almost every single device in n90018:19
WizardNumberNextnot main camera18:20
GI_JackWizardNumberNext, what about the modem18:20
GI_Jackthe most important part of the phone, the HPSA+ modem18:20
WizardNumberNextI assume you can get any samsung exynos based device fully working on linux18:20
WizardNumberNextthat's biggest problem18:20
stevenmthis server...   is it nokias?  (ms's?)   if it went offline, who else has the right to re-distribute that firmware?18:21
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stevenmbecause once it's not officially available... a completely reimplemented maemo version (with installer image) is really really needed18:21
WizardNumberNextbecause in most cases you won't ever get specsheet18:21
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WizardNumberNextstevenm, I don't think that simple installer would work on all devices - you would some flashers for different devices and installing OS on SP - this something what I would never attempt18:22
WizardNumberNextflashing OS - yes, but installing - no way18:22
stevenmsod an installer... just an image file that can be downloaded without contacting a nokia server would be nice18:23
stevenmstep 2 would be a second image for some other phone18:25
stevenm*then* you can call Maemo an OS that stands on it's own apart from nokia/ms and works multiplatform18:25
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stevenmand not just a set of packages to bolt on to ex-nokia firmware18:25
WizardNumberNextanyway I still have no idea why I cannot get backupmenu working18:26
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sonohm i should look into the kernel related stuff, i just harldy have the time to even play with my current n90018:56
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sonoi am sure we will not be forced to use nokia 2.6 for neo900 maemo, whatever that will be or look like in userland.18:57
sonoit wouldn't even make sense (or work)18:58
sonodoc has to carve out the specs18:58
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kolpstevenm: creating the neo900 and getting rid of closed blobs in maemo are parallel efforts. They're neither mutually exclusive nor technically related19:03
kolpThat was re: <stevenm> that's the first step - not this neo90019:04
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Ken-YoungDoes anyone have a suggestion for a good tablet that runs something closes to a standard gnu/linux distribution?20:30
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lexikmaybe PengPod?20:37
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Ken-Younglexik, Thanks!   I'll take a look at that one.20:40
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