IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2012-05-21

Estel_	teotwaki, no, at least me. Livebox, yes, it's french	00:00
Estel_	but also used in Plland	00:00
Estel_	Poland*	00:00
teotwaki_	really? Interesting? By Orange/Wanadoo?	00:00
MrPingu	My grandparents have a livebox too	00:00
MrPingu	I live in the Netherlands BTW	00:00
teotwaki_	Shame you'll never get your hands on a freebox :P	00:01
Estel_	Orange/Telekomunikacja Polska SA :P	00:01
Estel_	our "national" provider	00:01
Estel_	in fact, national/private hybride	00:01
Estel_	monopolyst, sort of	00:01
DocScrutinizer	teotwaki_: how's this relevant for my living room?	00:01
Estel_	teotwaki, I don't want to. Livebox is worse router on earth	00:02
Estel_	ALL it's incarnations	00:02
teotwaki_	Estel_: and Freebox is one of the best ;)	00:02
teotwaki_	DocScrutinizer: makes your network card capable of running 100% real-time FFT or word analysis on voip streams.	00:02
Estel_	is it capable of running OpenWRT?	00:02
DocScrutinizer	errr wut, a FDDI concentrator?	00:02
teotwaki_	Estel_: nope	00:02
Estel_	so it isn't one of bect ;)	00:03
Estel_	it's like comparing iphone to N900	00:03
teotwaki_	Estel_: nope, it's not.	00:03
Estel_	anything with locked, closed firmware is of no interest to me	00:03
teotwaki_	DocScrutinizer: we bought a couple at work, initially to off-load part of the VoIP work from the CPU, directly onto the network card, but now, we're using it more to do "anger detection".	00:03
teotwaki_	Estel_: it's not closed, runs a full Linux stack, with published sources, and if you ask the right people, they give you the way to load your own.	00:03
Estel_	so it is capable of running openwrt	00:04
teotwaki_	yeah, but you most probably wouldn't want to.	00:04
Estel_	probably right	00:04
Estel_	unless You want to do like with arch linux on desktop (set up only needed tools fom scratch)	00:05
Estel_	but I'm sure You don't get it from Orange, yes?;)	00:05
teotwaki_	I run a very low-power version of our VoIP server on it, so I can program some ccxml/vxml logic into my phone line.	00:05
teotwaki_	only from the Free ISP.	00:06
Estel_	wonderful	00:06
Estel_	sounds great	00:06
Estel_	initially I though You're talking about some livebox successor, lol	00:06
teotwaki_	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebox#V6_generation.2C_Freebox_Revolution	00:07
Estel_	what is this Free ISP?	00:07
Estel_	ok got answer myself	00:08
MrPingu	Estel_ Aapo uploaded gcompris to devel, you might be interested? ( I read that somewhere)	00:09
Estel_	yea, I asked him to update it :)	00:10
Estel_	he was so kind to take it on himself	00:10
Estel_	actually I've helped him to track down some issues	00:11
Estel_	ohp, it reminds me that painting electrical schematics doesn't work due to some lacking file	00:11
Estel_	You can paint, but they wont work (simulate)	00:11
MrPingu	;)	00:12
Estel_	must report it to him	00:12
Estel_	for some reasons it works zillion times faster than same gcompris via easy debian	00:12
Estel_	at least initial startup	00:12
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MrPingu_	Yeah, crash #2	00:18
MrPingu_	Well semi-crash, only wlan crashed, actually	00:19
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MrPingu_	Going to say good night!	00:22
MrPingu_	Ciao	00:22
Estel_	goodnight!	00:22
DocScrutinizer	MrPingu_: one thing for dreaming:	00:22
DocScrutinizer	I found _many_ wlan-modem-routers crash on WPA	00:23
MrPingu_	I won't downgrade to WEP for sure	00:23
Estel_	;)	00:23
DocScrutinizer	maybe if you switch off WLAN, your modem runs stable	00:23
Estel_	+ using router, like we mentioned, as ethernet client	00:24
DocScrutinizer	yup	00:24
DocScrutinizer	plus proper AP	00:24
MrPingu_	yeah, thanks :)	00:24
DocScrutinizer	g'nite	00:24
MohammadAG	I need javispedro	00:24
Estel_	for what?	00:24
MohammadAG	teotwaki, nope, no idea what it is even :p	00:24
DocScrutinizer	well, dunno if javispedro needs you ;-P	00:25
MohammadAG	Estel_, making a video widget for MTF	00:25
MrPingu_	Btw already busted a "intruder" when router was at wep some years ago :o	00:25
MohammadAG	for Sociality youtube playback	00:25
MohammadAG	the UI is a 100% clone of the internal player	00:25
MohammadAG	but I need help with painting the colorkey	00:25
Estel_	MrPingu_, You could make him upside down net	00:25
Estel_	or kitty network	00:25
DocScrutinizer	I plan to set up a honeypot WEP	00:25
Estel_	:P	00:26
Estel_	and collect credit's card numers	00:26
MohammadAG	also I need to know how to detect that a swipe started	00:26
MrPingu_	I doubled security, WPA2 only (turned of mixed, disables some device), Hidden SSID, mac filtering	00:26
DocScrutinizer	dang, you'd think a H-E-N update would cause more noise	00:27
teotwaki_	MrPingu_: don't bother with mac filtering	00:27
Estel_	it's funny how many noobs are filtered out just by using hidden network	00:27
Estel_	teotwaki, cant agree	00:27
teotwaki_	MrPingu_: it's more hassle than it's worth (which is: zilch)	00:27
DocScrutinizer	hidden SSID is BS	00:27
Estel_	it is BS yet super effective against script kiddies	00:27
teotwaki_	that too.	00:27
Estel_	99% of them don't know that Your wifi exist	00:28
MrPingu_	BS? sorry :P	00:28
teotwaki_	sure they do	00:28
DocScrutinizer	Estel_: absolutely not	00:28
Estel_	and another 1% don't know how to reveal it	00:28
teotwaki_	they see the network, get signal strength, even AP MAC.	00:28
teotwaki_	All the info is there.	00:28
DocScrutinizer	au contraire - hidden SSID introduces new security threats	00:28
Estel_	it is, but not set in plain, untill You're actually transferring	00:28
Estel_	ah sry	00:29
Estel_	missread	00:29
MrPingu_	much traffic so AP ESSID is reveiled quite easil tho	00:29
Estel_	only during connect	00:29
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DocScrutinizer	exactly	00:29
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Estel_	cmon, most script kiddies don't know how to do it without essid	00:29
Estel_	at least they don't bother AP with fake auth to wpa2	00:30
teotwaki_	rule of thumb: if you need to hide to be safe, you're not safe. If you don't trust your encryption to provide good enough security, you shouldn't be operating wifi.	00:30
MrPingu_	Yeah but who knows to get airodump running, probably know how to use deauth	00:30
Estel_	useless for them, but bothersome	00:30
DocScrutinizer	plus your device configured to scan and query hidden APs, will disclose all the SSIDs your device is known to, no matter where you are - AIUI	00:30
Estel_	teotwaki, DocScrutinizer sure thing and I don't claim it's security at all	00:31
DocScrutinizer	it's anti-security	00:31
Estel_	it's just a thing that makes 99% of mosquitons not notice You	00:31
DocScrutinizer	plus a HUUUGE PITA for administration	00:31
Estel_	I'm using wpa2 with very strong passphrase	00:31
teotwaki_	but then again, if your security is good enough, they'll see you, and just skip to the next easy target.	00:31
Estel_	but I also use hidden network, so, miracolously, idiots stopped to deauth me	00:31
MrPingu_	Besides android can't handle all hidden SSIDs	00:31
MrPingu_	including my router xD	00:31
Estel_	teotwaki, not true with noobs	00:32
Estel_	tell me how You secure AP against deauths	00:32
teotwaki_	Hidden SSID causes the actual useful tools to not work properly, you need to remember your ssid name, etc... it's more trouble than it's worth.	00:32
Estel_	or Your security isn't good enough and You shouldn't have wifi? ;)	00:32
Estel_	standards are broken, even using strong encryption	00:32
teotwaki_	i don't give a fuck about deauths...	00:32
DocScrutinizer	teotwaki_: exactly	00:32
MrPingu_	deauths are irritating...	00:33
teotwaki_	well, my neighbours aren't asshats, for one.	00:33
Estel_	teotwaki, You will give, if You will download something huge and get deauth in middle, and server doesn't support resuming	00:33
Estel_	exactly	00:33
Estel_	but, in place where I live	00:33
MrPingu_	exactly estel_	00:33
Estel_	mnay kids try it	00:33
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teotwaki_	and if I notice deauths, I'd pull the plug on my wifi asap 'till the kiddies fly over.	00:34
Estel_	hidden network is useless in Yoiur user case teotwaki and DocScrutinizer	00:34
teotwaki_	who the fuck downloads something huge over wifi?	00:34
DocScrutinizer	MrPingu_: a bunch of fsckdup clients trying to roam to your AP as they are meant to associate to neighbour's also hidden SSID are more irritating	00:34
Estel_	but it doesn't mean it's useless for other cases	00:34
merlin1991	somebody ran a deauth attack at the university some time ago	00:34
merlin1991	was funny to watch	00:34
Estel_	teotwaki, not everyone sits on 120fiber	00:34
Estel_	My network is so cheap @ bandidth	00:34
Estel_	that I can use wifi without penalties	00:35
Estel_	whatever it is, watching stream, downloading, no matter what	00:35
Estel_	deqauths are irritating	00:35
teotwaki_	my router downloads huge files -- no disconnection possible. If it's a movie, I consume it over CPL on the telly, if it's a 6GB app, I don't mind plugging in a cable and speeding up the download 100x.	00:35
Estel_	see above.	00:35
teotwaki_	streaming is so 2007 :P	00:35
Estel_	don't care.	00:35
Estel_	whatever I use, turning hidden network ON made me 0 deauths	00:36
Estel_	since.	00:36
Estel_	it doesn't mean I'm not using strong passphrase wpa2 with low time of group key reneval	00:36
MrPingu_	wpa2 32byte hex key ;)	00:36
teotwaki_	you just got lucky, if you want i'll check if I still have my aircrack script that deauths everything in range, be it hidden or not -- it used to work fine on the n900, although power hungry.	00:37
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Estel_	nice, but it's not popular amonsgt noobs	00:37
MrPingu_	whole monitor mode on n900 is power hungry	00:37
Estel_	I've said zillion of times - hidden network isn't security, it's anti-noob tool	00:37
DocScrutinizer	Estel_: see? that's what I'll get a honeypot WEP for. Aloow deauthing fucking script kiddies to "hack" it, then fsck then decently	00:37
teotwaki_	see, i just got a disconnect from my shitty network card	00:37
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teotwaki_	did you notice anything? I sure didn't.	00:37
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, true ;)	00:37
teotwaki_	but wifi went down -- none of my downloads, or connections did.	00:38
Estel_	fine, but, I, for a turn, don't like such bloatboxes like freebox	00:38
Estel_	fine, but, I, for a turn, don't like such bloatboxes like freebox	00:38
Estel_	damn, sry	00:38
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teotwaki_	whatever floats your boat, I guess.	00:38
Estel_	it's decent router for sure, but	00:38
Estel_	if I want to plug hdd to it	00:39
Estel_	I don't need 250gb inside router	00:39
MrPingu_	Most of the time I use my gaming machine, connected with a wire	00:39
Estel_	and cmon, can't write dvb-t movies to external disk due to copyright reasons?	00:39
Estel_	my router is MY router	00:39
teotwaki_	Estel_: wha? That works.	00:39
teotwaki_	Estel_: there's two channels on which that doesn't work -- but stream it through VLC from the router, and dump it to the HD.	00:40
MrPingu_	but sometimes, it's just more comfortable when you can use a laptop everywhere	00:40
Estel_	well, so article on wiki is outdated, it was well known issue	00:40
Estel_	teotwaki, true	00:40
Estel_	but You must workaround Your own router	00:40
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teotwaki_	they're just playing ball with content providers, doesn't mean they make it exactly difficult.	00:40
Estel_	ok, I preffer to have own router that doesn't play ball with anyone	00:40
Estel_	I just don't like provider's stuff	00:41
teotwaki_	sure, how much do you pay again every month, and what kind of connection do you have? :P	00:41
MrPingu_	agree ^^	00:41
Estel_	not that I'm saying it's bad for You	00:41
Estel_	I just mean that Your user habits doesn't need to be valid for others. I preffer minimalistiv approach	00:41
MrPingu_	I was about to go to bed, hmm I stayed ;o	00:42
Estel_	freebox got many great things softwqre wise, but for me - I repeat just for me, it's bloated like Ubuntu's unity	00:42
MrPingu_	going for real now, good night!	00:42
Estel_	MrPingu_, interesting night conversations ;)	00:42
Estel_	bye bye!	00:42
teotwaki_	Don't mean to get in a pissing context, am just saying that even though I'm a FOSS dude, and I lobby everyone and their brother against patents, and copyright, and DRM, I have to admire when a company uses free software for "the greater good".	00:42
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Estel_	here I agree 100%	00:43
Estel_	freebox sounds like something 100% better than any router given by providers	00:43
Estel_	and people will, probably, always use provider's routers	00:43
Estel_	so I preffer FOSS ones	00:43
Estel_	it's just not for me	00:43
teotwaki_	And that's one thing Free has been doing, all the time. They fought all the stupid copyright laws in France (the one where the french RIAA can just submit a list of IPs, and demand the three strike law is applied against it -- they provide the data back in paper format, and charge the french riaa for the cost of printing it and shipping)	00:43
Estel_	I don't even need usb port in my router that much ;)	00:43
teotwaki_	When the government tried to kill off wikileaks' hosting in france, Free and OVH were the only two companies to go "Wait, that's against the constitution" and brought it to court.	00:44
Estel_	haha	00:44
Estel_	sounds great	00:44
Estel_	I mean paper	00:44
Estel_	printing	00:44
Estel_	sounds reasonable. Good to have such provider.	00:45
teotwaki_	yeah, that was brilliant -- sad the masses don't hear about it.	00:45
Estel_	I would surely subscribe to such provider, yet, our ones are "regular"	00:45
Estel_	Cable providers less bloated by restrictions, mass ones more	00:45
ThreeM	OVH MUST sue this. the most active consumers from OVH are in the warez business	00:46
teotwaki_	a decade ago, they kicked the phone industry in the bollocks, by providing free phone to the whole of france, on landlines, and 6 months later, free phone service to 3/4 of the world (landlines).	00:46
Estel_	would be interested in read about it, any links?	00:47
Estel_	btw, despite freebox greatness, it's possible to use other routers, and to use freebox on other's lines?	00:47
Estel_	i.e. not owned by Free?	00:47
teotwaki_	yeah sure	00:48
teotwaki_	a few months ago, they did it again, unlimited mobile phone contract, which includes unlimited minutes, texts, mms, 3g (bandwidth limited after 3GB as fair use), free SIM, no early termination fees, no subscription fees, nada... All that, for 15.99 a month (or 19.99 if you're not a prior customer)	00:48
teotwaki_	and the most beautiful part? 70% of their network is provided by... Orange.	00:48
Estel_	nice	00:48
Estel_	but where do they make money, acually?	00:49
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Estel_	and, what about speed limit on 3G after 3GB, any numbers?	00:49
teotwaki_	for regular users, they have a 40% margin.	00:49
merlin1991	DocScrutinizer: having conenction problems?	00:49
Estel_	my suckin provider limit it to 16 kbps ;)	00:49
teotwaki_	Estel_: no idea to be honest.	00:49
teotwaki_	Estel_: my girlfriend on the N900 never hit the limit.	00:49
Estel_	it's nice to have girlfriend using N900, I think ;) just side note	00:50
DocScrutinizer	merlin1991: why?	00:50
teotwaki_	she loves it	00:50
teotwaki_	absolutely unaware it would be able to connect to wifi and stuff, or that it runs Linux.	00:50
merlin1991	<-- jhb (~joerg@e176092221.adsl.alicedsl.de) hat das Netzwerk verlassen (Quit: Leaving.)	00:50
merlin1991	assumed that's you aswell :D	00:50
DocScrutinizer	nope	00:50
teotwaki_	that's his evil twin brother.	00:50
merlin1991	coming from a german network + joerg	00:50
Estel_	my ex wife wasn't this type, all I was able to convince her was 9300i communicator :P	00:51
merlin1991	:)	00:51
teotwaki_	on a side note -- it's the first time I'm lighting a cigarette on IRC in a long time (while talking on #maemo). Usually, I'd shout out "/me throws a lucky strike to lcuk" -- #knottedstomach.	00:51
Estel_	so You're saying that Your girlfriend loves N900 without knowing how to mess with linux?	00:52
Estel_	:)	00:52
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Estel_	It sound like great complement.	00:52
merlin1991	hm rate limit would be awesome	00:52
teotwaki_	well, she knows how to start up the terminal, launch python, and write an infinite loop saying "I love you".	00:52
merlin1991	I pay per gb	00:52
Estel_	;)	00:52
merlin1991	teotwaki_: I suppose that has to do ;)	00:53
Estel_	well, lately I've convinced my mother to sell her xperia x10 mini pro and buy N900	00:53
Estel_	She's year '53	00:53
teotwaki_	hey, I got her to use LyX/LaTeX for her uni work, and git to back it all up!	00:53
Estel_	no problems at all with usage	00:53
Estel_	teotwaki, :) technologgy to the masses ;)	00:54
teotwaki_	next step is Mint 13 with MATE when the stable release comes out. She likes it on the desktop.	00:54
merlin1991	dafuq is MATE?	00:54
Estel_	who said N900 wasn't also great for non-geeks?	00:54
merlin1991	also I should look into LaTeX one day	00:54
teotwaki_	Gnome 2, made awesome, and supported.	00:54
merlin1991	hm Gnome 2, that sounds kewl	00:54
Estel_	I'm all for LXDE	00:55
teotwaki_	my sister converted her whole Word-based workflow to LyX + BiBTeX (jabref to create the db) for her thesis in roughly 3 weeks.	00:55
Estel_	I've said about minimalism already, eh? ;)	00:55
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Estel_	nice. Why not LibreOffice?	00:55
teotwaki_	http://mate-desktop.org/	00:56
Estel_	sounds like more natural choose for people accustomed to word	00:56
teotwaki_	Estel_: because libreoffice sucks as much as office.	00:56
Estel_	rationale?	00:56
merlin1991	hm could be a lil more yellowis in the default style for my liking :D	00:56
teotwaki_	LyX enables you to work on your content, rather than be distracted by layout.	00:56
Estel_	personally, I like LibreOffice, it works great even on N900 ;)	00:56
Estel_	oh, I'm getting nrvous hearing that phrase	00:57
Estel_	most of the times used to rationale hiding interface from me	00:57
Estel_	when next chromium got url bar hidden by default, they've said that it lets You focus more on content	00:58
teotwaki_	Estel_: lemme take a couple of screenshots to illustrate, aye?	00:58
Estel_	heck, If I want fullscreen on text processor or browser, I just hit F11	00:58
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Estel_	of course	00:58
Estel_	thanks for the effort	00:58
teotwaki_	http://imagebin.org/213163	01:02
teotwaki_	http://imagebin.org/213164	01:03
teotwaki_	Estel_: ^	01:03
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teotwaki_	Estel_: LyX hides the complexity of LaTeX, while still empowering you to use all what it offers, and its flexibility.	01:05
Estel_	thanks for the effort	01:06
Estel_	damn	01:06
Estel_	my mesage got deleted	01:06
Estel_	I meant "thanks for screen,, I also took reading ride"	01:06
Estel_	looks like really great and powerful tool	01:07
Estel_	it's for sure really quick when writing pre-defined documents, although doesn't performance hurt when doing non-standarized (layouted) thing?	01:07
Estel_	You know, custom thing out of regular context	01:07
Estel_	I mean that it reminds me about .css classes	01:08
Estel_	teotwaki_^	01:08
teotwaki_	well, my girlfriend and sister use a template designed by some german dude	01:08
teotwaki_	called classicthesis	01:09
* Estel_ nods		01:09
Estel_	I can imagine it's really great and conveinent to use	01:09
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teotwaki_	for some teachers, who need specific layouts, I write up a quick layout for them	01:09
Estel_	and that You're able to write many complicated things blazingly fast	01:09
Estel_	I see	01:09
teotwaki_	usually very basic stuff, specific margins, spacing, font type and size, that kind of shit.	01:10
teotwaki_	I use it at work, with a bit more "expert" settings, such as logos, or even presentations	01:10
Estel_	well, I think it's not for everyone or at least not as sole text editor - I, for one, like to have fine tune about details on every basis :P	01:10
Estel_	I will surely download it and install	01:10
Estel_	and probably love it	01:11
teotwaki_	and code, with highlighting, etc.	01:11
Estel_	yet can't imagine it replacing LibreOffice with zillion of interface buttons	01:11
Estel_	that I can invoke @ any time :P	01:11
Estel_	for sure Lyx is a beast for things that You do often and need repeated styles	01:12
Estel_	do layout once and forget	01:12
Estel_	just write	01:12
Estel_	I'm just like this guy who sits in propeller plane and turn all this knobs manually, instead of buying ultralight personal jet :P	01:12
Estel_	that flights without me ;)	01:12
Estel_	which doesn't mean I don't like using jets for inter-dontinent travels	01:13
teotwaki_	well, it's got everything I need... Tables, table of contents, environments (format, headings), I use it to write our product documentation, release notes, meeting minutes, whatever with it	01:13
Estel_	I don't know how to explain it properly...	01:14
teotwaki_	and if something is bothering me, I just drop down to LaTeX and fix whatever the gui doesn't allow me.	01:14
Estel_	it's like with swype. it's great and speeds writing like hell... Yet I like more to tap on qwerty	01:14
Estel_	this way, I got like "mental connection" with text	01:14
teotwaki_	haha -- I asked for a zowie celeritas keyboard for my birthday at the end of the month.	01:14
Estel_	feeling that someone is formatting something for me, I got actual distracted...	01:15
Estel_	while interface buttons don't distract me	01:15
Estel_	just personal preff, I suppose	01:15
trumee	teotwaki_: ++lyx	01:15
trumee	teotwaki_: i have wanting to run Jabref on N900	01:15
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teotwaki_	shame it's java-based.	01:15
Estel_	btw, any way to port lyx to N900?	01:15
teotwaki_	I wouldn't recommend it, frankly.	01:15
trumee	teotwaki_: yes, nothing comes close to jabref in terms of functionality	01:16
Estel_	trumee, teotwaki, phoneME for java based?	01:16
teotwaki_	LaTeX is pretty hefty, think 300MB worth of dependencies.	01:16
trumee	Estel_: yes, i have been wondering about that too.	01:16
Estel_	300 mb is nothing	01:16
Estel_	I got 3GB easy debian image	01:16
Estel_	and I use LibreOffice on ED daily	01:16
trumee	Estel_: there is a jar for jabref, not sure if phoneME will work	01:16
Estel_	Lyx looks like perfect solution for on the go writing	01:16
teotwaki_	let's put it this way, on a good i5 2500K extreme CPU, generating a medium sized (90 pages) document takes 1.3 seconds, or something like that.	01:16
Estel_	forget formatting and hunting ui button with stylus	01:17
Estel_	hm	01:17
teotwaki_	On a 1 year old Pentium something (girlfriend computer), it takes roughly 40 seconds.	01:17
Estel_	trumee, we need to check ;)	01:17
teotwaki_	on a 600Mhz ARM CPU? I don't dare ask.	01:17
Estel_	teotwaki, You mean generating after writing?	01:17
teotwaki_	yeah	01:17
Estel_	when You finished and click "generate" ?	01:18
Estel_	so it's no problem	01:18
teotwaki_	true	01:18
Estel_	it can even do it 5 min	01:18
Estel_	I mean easy of writing itself	01:18
teotwaki_	it's like "compile time", not an issue for most devs.	01:18
Estel_	it's important	01:18
Estel_	yea	01:18
trumee	The UI will need to modified for lyx	01:18
Estel_	I use LibreOffice on N900 mainly with bluetooth mouse usb keyboard and tv-out	01:18
Estel_	but for writing on the go, lyx would be great	01:19
Estel_	trumee, I'll try lys via easy debian	01:19
trumee	I think latex is already available on N900	01:19
trumee	in the repos.	01:19
Estel_	but of course version tuned for Maemo would be best	01:19
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Estel_	hm, nice	01:19
teotwaki_	trumee: bibtex format is pretty standard, if it doesn't exist, writing a flexiyacc generator/parser would be easy... Integrating that into a small Qt app would be no challenge for MohammadAG.	01:20
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teotwaki_	3 weeks 'till it's in extras, methinks, if we got to it.	01:20
Estel_	MohammadAG is overprojected already	01:20
teotwaki_	not for me he ain't :P	01:20
Estel_	it took me year to convince him into update hen	01:20
trumee	teotwaki_: jabref has a very nice plugin which pulls pdf directly from the journal website	01:21
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teotwaki_	I did not know that.	01:21
trumee	teotwaki_: that feature is awesome	01:21
Estel_	...and he did it just when I started to do it myself :P	01:21
trumee	teotwaki_: http://www.lhnr.de/ext/localcopy/index.php	01:22
teotwaki_	nice	01:22
trumee	teotwaki_: have been using it for past few years. love using jabref because of this	01:23
teotwaki_	povbot: LOGMARKER JABREF	01:23
povbot	teotwaki_: Error: "LOGMARKER" is not a valid command.	01:23
teotwaki_	povbot: don't worry, google search will do it just fine :)	01:23
povbot	teotwaki_: Error: "don't" is not a valid command.	01:23
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Estel_	Installing LYX on ed frequired 482 MB of archive ;)	01:26
Estel_	archoves* downloading	01:26
Estel_	archives* heck	01:26
Estel_	831 MB will be used on disk	01:27
Estel_	wouldn't call it lightweight :P	01:27
teotwaki_	heh, it's funny when i see ads for my product on the telly :)	01:30
merlin1991	hehe	01:36
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teotwaki_	anyway, time for me to hit the sack	01:53
teotwaki_	'later dudes	01:53
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Estel_	merlin1991, quick dirty info, what's about maemo icon in /debian/control ?	01:58
Estel_	it's somehow bundled as a text string inside control file?	01:59
merlin1991	yes	01:59
merlin1991	it's what you see in ham	01:59
merlin1991	there is a defined one for xterm stuff	01:59
merlin1991	it's somewhere on the wiki	01:59
Estel_	hm, thanks... how to transform?	01:59
Estel_	yea	01:59
Estel_	remember about defined for terminal only	02:00
Estel_	somewhere in the wiki is my favorite navigational aid :P seriously though, I'll check it.	02:00
Estel_	normally there is no widely-remembered way to transform icon into text stuff?	02:00
merlin1991	uuencode	02:01
Estel_	thx	02:01
merlin1991	it's a 48x48 png icon base 64 encoded	02:02
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Estel_	aye. thanks a lot, saves huge searching trip	02:02
merlin1991	see http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Maemo-specific_fields	02:02
Estel_	wow, that saves even more ;)	02:03
Estel_	+orry for bugging You with numerous questions...	02:03
DocScrutinizer	n8	02:03
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Macer	heh	03:34
Macer	my water drives are almost done repairing the raid	03:34
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Macer	WD = water drives	03:34
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Hurrian	speaking of water drives, anyone else heard of HDD watercooling?	03:37
Hurrian	it's maximum rice.	03:37
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luke-jr	my N900 battery won't charge anymore :/	03:49
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beford	at least those batteries are common	03:50
luke-jr	is it the battery or the USB port? >_<	03:57
Hurrian	lukr-jr, power it off, and try to power it on	03:59
Hurrian	by plugging in the USB charger	03:59
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Macer	luke-jr: wooooo!!	04:17
Macer	luke-jr: n900s seem to have so many problems with them.. my sim reader died on me ;)	04:17
Macer	first n900 had the broken usb port problem	04:17
Macer	they just slapped them together and threw them out there	04:18
Macer	lol	04:18
luke-jr	Macer: I soldered my USB port down :/	04:18
Macer	luke-jr: i just gave into the dark side and got a lumia 900	04:18
Macer	the beta testing is over :-P	04:18
luke-jr	a what?	04:18
Macer	the wp7 phone	04:18
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luke-jr	wtf is wrong with yoyu	04:18
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Macer	got sick of using niche phones and crap ad-droid phones	04:18
Macer	believe it or not.. it's pretty awesome ;)	04:19
Macer	don't judge me... i was 2 steps shy of getting an iphone :-P	04:19
Macer	i got sick of buying phones that break	04:20
Macer	like HTC garbage and N900s heh	04:20
Macer	RIP N900... you served me well	04:20
robbiethe1st	Darn weak point.	04:20
robbiethe1st	Personally, I couldn't stand it. Anything without a root terminal and unlocked bootloader is not for me	04:20
Macer	robbiethe1st: well.. to each their own ;) it was cool when i didn't need something that worked.. but now i do and the lumia 900 works	04:21
robbiethe1st	I mean... Can your Lumia 900 run usb hostmode with a USB->serial adaptor?	04:21
robbiethe1st	Or USB soundcard(for SPDIF out)?	04:21
Macer	no but i honestly don't need those things either	04:21
robbiethe1st	Heck, that's the reason I still can't use my N950 as my main phone...	04:22
robbiethe1st	Cause my N900 has the odd shit I need -- which includes a lot of stuff from easydebian.	04:22
Macer	robbiethe1st: well.. maybe if you're a dev that's great.. but us mere mortals need something that can make sure that i get a data connection with my cell provider :-P	04:22
Macer	and charge without a port breaking off	04:23
robbiethe1st	Actually, erm... I had excellent luck using my N900 for that. Both on-device and USB tethering, it worked absolutely perfectly. But the second is /majorly/ valid.	04:23
Macer	i have an ssh client for irc and doing remote shell based stuff.. that's all i need ;)	04:23
Macer	and a jabber client	04:24
Macer	other than that i need a phone to be a phone	04:24
Macer	the stock stuff in wp7 is fine	04:24
robbiethe1st	Forgive me if I disagree, but...	04:24
Macer	plus.. att was damn near giving them away ;)	04:24
robbiethe1st	Oh, also, I'm not locked into a contract.	04:24
Macer	heh... i was too... i still am for about 3 more months.. i gave the phone to my gf so her son could use it	04:25
Macer	well.. the sim	04:25
Macer	it wasn't wroth paying the extra $100 and she needed something for her son so it actually worked out	04:25
Macer	ah well... i have to head out ;) ttyl .. .but yeah... i still have the n900 with the broken sim but without it being on tmob's 3G network it really isn't worth using	04:26
Macer	and it feels handicapped using it as a nit only	04:26
Macer	now it's just collecting dust	04:26
robbiethe1st	Sad	04:27
Macer	i'll probably ebay it with the broken sim and see if i get any takers.. other than that it's in GREAT condition.. i took great care of it	04:27
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Macer	robbiethe1st: it is.. i'm not saying i didn't love it.. i'm just saying it was time to move on ;)	04:27
Theytookourjobs	is there a roadmap or a release shedule when maemo will have reach stable?	04:29
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Theytookourjobs	I mean, how long is maemo around already?	04:34
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merlin1991	dafuq?	04:34
merlin1991	maemo is stable, it has seen several releases alreadyx	04:34
Theytookourjobs	merlin1991: now, I can prove it is now the case.	04:35
Theytookourjobs	merlin1991: if you go to maemo.org it states very clearly - MAEMO [BETA] -	04:36
GeneralAntilles	Theytookourjobs, Maemo is discontinued.	04:37
GeneralAntilles	Theytookourjobs, it clearly states: maemo.org beta.	04:38
GeneralAntilles	Lern2reed	04:38
Theytookourjobs	OMG! Then it will never reach stable!	04:39
GeneralAntilles	Theytookourjobs, warning #1 (you only get 1). Quit trolling. Nobody's interested.	04:39
Theytookourjobs	now come on, that isn't really trolling. more or less you should get rid of this [beta].	04:41
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Theytookourjobs	maemo.org beta,	04:48
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Theytookourjobs	beta	04:51
Theytookourjobs	this beta even has a red background.	04:51
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Theytookourjobs	you know, in case nokia will go bankcrupt and the webserver goes offline, I'll write a wikipedia entry "...one reason might be because maemo.org was beta until the very end". no joke.	04:59
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GeneralAntilles	Cripes	05:00
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DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles: we need a +b cleaning day eventually	09:12
DocScrutinizer	almost too much for freenode ;-D	09:13
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DocScrutinizer	oops, IPv6 might be static	09:19
DocScrutinizer	well, let's see	09:19
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ruskie	http://zareason.com/shop/zatab.html	09:39
archeyDevil	Estel_: I don't like mounting via usb for two reasons. A. It makes a part of the storage unavalible to the device it's self and requires udev on my arch to work with the storage correctly (Which doesn't always work with phones in my experience)	09:39
archeyDevil	Sicelo: I'll look into it.. Thanks :)	09:39
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Sicelo	archeyDevil: actually Estel_ meant usb-networking :P	09:46
archeyDevil	Meh.	09:47
* archeyDevil doesn't like teathering through usb :P		09:47
archeyDevil	dbus-send --type=method_call --dest=org.freedesktop.Notifications /org/freedesktop/Notifications org.freedesktop.Notifications.SystemNoteInfoprint string:"This is a test"	09:47
archeyDevil	Anyone know how to make that notification message stay?	09:47
DocScrutinizer	use SystemNoteDialog	09:48
DocScrutinizer	instead of SystemNoteInfoprint	09:48
DocScrutinizer	$dbussend --type=method_call --dest=org.freedesktop.Notifications \ /org/freedesktop/Notifications \ org.freedesktop.Notifications.SystemNoteDialog \ string:"`echo -en "Shutting down 5V supply for USB! Reason:\n$errortext2"`" uint32:0 string:"WARN";	09:49
archeyDevil	DocScrutinizer: Thanks.. Just one more question... How to get that as a function (shell)?	09:54
archeyDevil	so mesg "this is a message"	09:55
archeyDevil	Maybe a different function name.. mesg is taken :P	09:55
archeyDevil	Just msg then.	09:55
Sicelo	you can also check out `phone-control` package that does (almost) the same with less 'typing' :P	09:56
archeyDevil	Haha	09:57
archeyDevil	so ssh method to use other parts of the phone?	09:58
archeyDevil	What repository?	09:58
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* archeyDevil can't find the package :(		09:59
Sicelo	extras, i suppose	09:59
archeyDevil	apt-get install ...?	10:00
archeyDevil	E: Couldn't find package phone-control	10:00
* archeyDevil can't find it in the gui either..		10:00
archeyDevil	even with the search terms "phone" nor "control"	10:01
* archeyDevil installs qtlockscreen :)		10:01
Sicelo	http://maemo.org/packages/view/phone-control/	10:01
archeyDevil	It's in extra-devel.. Going to add it :)	10:03
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archeyDevil	Repo added :)_	10:06
archeyDevil	Nokia-N900:~# apt-get update; apt-get upgrade; apt-get install phone-control	10:08
archeyDevil	:)	10:08
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archeyDevil	cutetube updated overnight? o.O	10:09
* archeyDevil hopes it works for downloading now :)		10:09
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archeyDevil	how to use phone-control --ledon Sicelo ?	10:21
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DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control	10:23
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archeyDevil	o.O Thanks	10:26
archeyDevil	Possible to change what colors for what events? And create new events? ( For the led )	10:28
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DocScrutinizer	err, the notification led?	10:29
archeyDevil	Yea.	10:29
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DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/LED_patterns	10:31
DocScrutinizer	etc/mce/mce.ini	10:32
archeyDevil	Hmm.	10:33
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/LED_Pattern_Editor	10:34
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archeyDevil	There better alternatives to qtlockscreen?	10:44
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Sicelo	gosh.. archeyDevil - careful with apt-get upgrade, especially with devel enable	10:49
archeyDevil	Sicelo: XD I gave it lower priority.	10:49
archeyDevil	http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel -- Mentions it	10:50
archeyDevil	At the end of the page.	10:51
Sicelo	i know, lol	10:52
archeyDevil	:)	10:52
* archeyDevil isn't a complete debian noob :P		10:52
* archeyDevil used to run with Debian for his desktop.... Since I tried Arch; No going back :D		10:53
DocScrutinizer	maemo != debian	10:53
archeyDevil	DocScrutinizer: Ture. However, apt-get == debian.pkgmgr	10:53
DocScrutinizer	but maemo / nokia repo is a bit... unusual	10:53
archeyDevil	True.	10:54
archeyDevil	Debian freemantle correct?	10:54
archeyDevil	Or is that the maemo version?	10:54
* archeyDevil doesn't remember freemantle in debian history.		10:54
DocScrutinizer	fremantle	10:54
DocScrutinizer	fremantle is maemo5	10:54
archeyDevil	s,ee,e,	10:54
archeyDevil	Okay :)	10:54
archeyDevil	Maemo going to get out of beta? ;)	10:55
DocScrutinizer	eh?	10:55
archeyDevil	http://maemo.org/ The header :P	10:55
DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles kicked somebody for that question like 6h ago	10:55
archeyDevil	beta	10:55
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* archeyDevil wonders why it says beta yet almost no development since 2011 (afaik)		10:56
DocScrutinizer	maemo.org seems got a bit messed up lately	10:56
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archeyDevil	Okay..	10:56
DocScrutinizer	anyway that beta never was about maemo, it always been about the website	10:56
archeyDevil	Ohhh.	10:57
archeyDevil	Fair enough.	10:57
DocScrutinizer	and I honestly wonder who messed up maemo.org html again	10:57
* archeyDevil wonders if anyone has openssh on their maemo device and don't have passwords disabled... :P (Very unsecure assuming data plan w\ enough signal)		10:58
DocScrutinizer	there's no way to use ssh without password	10:58
archeyDevil	Yes there is..	10:58
archeyDevil	ssh-keygen; ssh-copy-id etc	10:58
* archeyDevil blocked password login for ssh. Keys required.		10:59
archeyDevil	key *	10:59
DocScrutinizer	oops, sorry I misread	10:59
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* archeyDevil has keys for all his computers ( and now phone )		10:59
DocScrutinizer	paswords DISabled	10:59
eddyb	this is weird, ~/MyDocs is read-only, how did that happen?	11:00
* archeyDevil is root so doesn't notice ;)		11:00
archeyDevil	drwxrwxrwx 14 user root 65536 May 21 17:26 MyDocs	11:00
archeyDevil	eddyb: just chown 700 to the folder.	11:01
psycho_oreos	eddyb, unclean mount?	11:01
eddyb	no idea	11:01
* archeyDevil knows that is 777 but fixing that up now.		11:01
psycho_oreos	that's a bad idea	11:01
eddyb	why is it vfat?	11:01
archeyDevil	chmod 700 *	11:01
psycho_oreos	for users who have windows PC or otherwise non-*nix based PC	11:01
eddyb	but...	11:01
eddyb	how do I copy 13GB of files onto it, then?	11:01
* archeyDevil used sshfs		11:02
archeyDevil	apt-get install openssh; sshfs from desktop. Mounted phone via ssh.	11:02
psycho_oreos	eddyb, remount it as rw, make sure no other programs are using it.. though I'd still check dmesg	11:02
psycho_oreos	sshfs won't work even if the fs is mounted as read-only.. not even root can write to it	11:03
eddyb	I managed to delete some files	11:03
eddyb	but not copy others	11:03
eddyb	now, the app (evopedia) can only load files from one of the vfat partitions	11:04
eddyb	and my files are 13GB	11:04
eddyb	that won't fit in a vfat partition	11:04
eddyb	:(	11:04
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: True...	11:04
archeyDevil	eddyb: df -h	11:04
eddyb	hmm?	11:04
archeyDevil	Ehh. dw	11:05
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* archeyDevil crys at df w\ busybox		11:05
archeyDevil	no -T :'(	11:05
psycho_oreos	~messybox	11:06
infobot	messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	11:06
* psycho_oreos is certain someone else would agree in here ;)		11:06
* archeyDevil knows it's type not giving read/write mode for the mount		11:06
eddyb	how the heck has a FAT partition 25GB?	11:06
archeyDevil	eddyb: Nokia n900?	11:06
psycho_oreos	I've installed bash along with many other proper utils, though from time to time I do use busybox-power (not busybox standard package) and regular gnutools	11:07
archeyDevil	eddyb: Nokia N900, comes with that partition like that so it can be unmounted for windows/non-nix systems to mount it via usb/mass-storage.	11:07
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eddyb	but FAT32 has a limit of 4GB	11:07
archeyDevil	E: Couldn't find package zsh	11:08
* archeyDevil cries.		11:08
psycho_oreos	for single file sizes yes.. but you that doesn't mean you can make it purely ext3 (though with some hacks)	11:08
eddyb	user "user" is not allowed to run umount	11:08
archeyDevil	eddyb: No it doesn't.	11:08
psycho_oreos	eddyb, sudo or do it as root	11:08
eddyb	archeyDevil: hmm, I thought it did	11:08
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, I think ruskie has zsh via his repo (though I don't think it was stable)	11:08
* archeyDevil wonders which he should have installed? rootsh or gainroot?		11:08
eddyb	psycho_oreos: that's what sudo says	11:08
psycho_oreos	eddyb, try getting a root console instead	11:09
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: Interesting.. However, not stable.. I'm not using it :)	11:09
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ruskie	yeah I have zsh	11:09
ruskie	what do you mean stable?	11:09
archeyDevil	pftt.. What am I talking about.. Gimme zsh :)	11:09
eddyb	psycho_oreos: how?	11:09
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: install rootsh or gainroot (I just asked which is prefured; don't know which, I'm using rootsh here)	11:10
psycho_oreos	ruskie, shrugs I recall you had it under `broken' part of your repository but shrugs its been a long while since I last checked	11:10
psycho_oreos	eddyb, sudo -i	11:10
archeyDevil	ruskie: Whats your repo info?	11:10
ruskie	psycho_oreos, the broken stuff is something else ;)	11:10
* archeyDevil is new to maemo btw. ( Not Linux )		11:10
ruskie	archeyDevil, http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Ruskie	11:10
ruskie	should all be there	11:10
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* archeyDevil is used to Arch Linux ( And other Linux systems such as Debian, Slack, etc. Oh and BSD's too )		11:11
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archeyDevil	:)	11:11
archeyDevil	ruskie: thanks	11:11
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, I'm personally neither :) I just use R&D mode and access gainroot from there if needed be but these days my sudo automatically takes care of that	11:11
eddyb	user "user" is apparently not allowed to run anything	11:11
psycho_oreos	ruskie, ahh I see	11:11
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: Fair enough.	11:12
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psycho_oreos	eddyb, its a logical security feature.. obviously synonymous with every other regular linux distro out there	11:12
eddyb	...	11:12
archeyDevil	eddyb: app manager, install rootsh or gainroot	11:12
eddyb	it's the message sudo gives me	11:12
eddyb	okay	11:12
archeyDevil	zsh - just don't set it as your default shell	11:12
archeyDevil	ruskie: What about default for root and have another user toor? :)	11:13
eddyb	time to wait another half an hour for the app manager to load]	11:13
archeyDevil	eddyb: XD it's slow.. Once you have installed it just use apt-get to install from the command line.. FAR FASTER :D	11:13
eddyb	is the password for root the same as for user?	11:14
ruskie	archeyDevil, I have some stuff in my .ashrc that auto executes zsh on ssh and I have a custom shortcut for the terminal	11:14
psycho_oreos	eddyb, what about sudo gainroot? I assume you don't have openssh-daemon, rootsh or gainroot installed	11:14
eddyb	because it seemed to have worked	11:14
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eddyb	I have only openssh	11:14
archeyDevil	ruskie: Nice :)	11:14
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psycho_oreos	eddyb, if it has worked you should get a root prompt	11:14
eddyb	hmm, the user password doesn't work for root in sftp	11:15
eddyb	but it "works" for sudo, except sudo thinks I'm too stupid to touch anything as root	11:15
archeyDevil	ruskie: haha, My remove list :D	11:15
psycho_oreos	eddyb, normally iinm it should be the password you set when you installed openssh-client-server	11:15
eddyb	well, I set a password	11:16
archeyDevil	ruskie: You have a screencast of your phone (from boot onwards)?	11:16
psycho_oreos	well I'd change password for root and you'll have ssh/sftp access via root	11:16
eddyb	and it works for user	11:16
ruskie	archeyDevil, nope	11:16
eddyb	and root in sudo	11:16
archeyDevil	ruskie: D:	11:16
eddyb	but not root in ssh	11:16
psycho_oreos	yeah you'll need to set passwd for root.. by default the passwd for root is `rootme'	11:16
archeyDevil	ruskie: Your maemo device.. Nokia n900?	11:17
eddyb	rootsh is gainroot, btw	11:17
ruskie	archeyDevil, yup	11:17
archeyDevil	ruskie: :)	11:17
* archeyDevil got his Nokia n900 yesterday :D		11:17
archeyDevil	eBay AU$120	11:18
psycho_oreos	shrugs like I said, I only use R&D mode and gainroot works well	11:18
psycho_oreos	2 years back and you would have looked somewhere almost three times that price	11:18
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eddyb	umount/mount as root (with gainroot) worked :D	11:19
eddyb	thanks guys :D	11:19
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: R&D?	11:19
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eddyb	what, 8h :\|?	11:19
psycho_oreos	eddyb, I'd still check dmesg as to why it was mounted ro, I'm certain only if the FS is uncleanly mounted for instance would make it remount as ro	11:19
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, research and development.. a mode that can only be enabled via flasher tool (and linux only). Though its not recommended for average/daily use (though personally I really don't care :))	11:20
psycho_oreos	eddyb, 8h?	11:20
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: Haha. So development maemo version?	11:20
eddyb	psycho_oreos: to copy those 13GB	11:21
archeyDevil	ruskie: What does your bootmenu change for you?	11:21
ruskie	archeyDevil, just gives me a shell and ssh though it's untested really	11:21
eddyb	psycho_oreos: apparently a FAT entry beyond EOF	11:21
ruskie	I think I tried it once or twice	11:21
archeyDevil	ruskie: Haha.	11:21
archeyDevil	So no X?	11:21
ruskie	nope	11:22
ruskie	it's meant to recover the system	11:22
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, not so much development but it just adds some fancy verbose messages at boot plus maybe slightly more verbose stuff in dmesg and other things.. again not really recommended for average joe as it may also drain battery	11:22
ruskie	it also requires fbcon	11:22
psycho_oreos	eddyb, yeah I'd run fsck imo	11:22
archeyDevil	ruskie: Yea, fbcon? Isn't that just for framebuffers on the console? ( i.e console background? )	11:23
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, R&D mode is also used when one cannot boot their device regularly as it can be used to disable/bypass certain hardware features, such as hw watchdog	11:23
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: How to flash the whole phone?	11:24
psycho_oreos	~flashing	11:24
infobot	somebody said maemo-flashing was http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	11:24
psycho_oreos	^	11:24
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: I mean. On the keyboard while booting.. Flash from image on the device as normal phones?	11:24
archeyDevil	Not giving it custom firmware	11:24
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, flashing on the keyboard? you mean like LED flashes on the keyboard?	11:25
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: No..	11:25
* archeyDevil means, during boot. wipe the phone so it's the default image ( as from manufacture )		11:25
* archeyDevil just wiped his Nokia n95 by mistake D:		11:26
archeyDevil	Lol	11:26
psycho_oreos	well that's done through flashing as pointed above... you can't flash the device once it enters into operational state.. there are certain conditions which has to be met for one to enter flash mode at boot	11:26
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archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: I know.. I was asking during the boot. ( as you press the on button ) What buttons to also hold to flash/reset/wipe the phone?	11:27
psycho_oreos	n95 is a different case, the last time I flashed it was using nokia suite and that was to update.. there's a software called phoenix flasher which apparently is used by nokia technicians.. and there's firmwares for n95 floating around.. I think cpkb.org is one site where you maybe able to obtain info	11:27
* archeyDevil isn't going to do it now. ( Got all my music; just would be great if I do brick it :P )		11:27
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: n95 is too easy to reset/flash/wipe.	11:28
archeyDevil	n900 on the other hand.. How?	11:28
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, for N900 its the letter U, but you hold it down as soon as you see USB icon	11:28
psycho_oreos	again its noted on the wiki	11:28
* archeyDevil can't find it on the wiki....		11:28
archeyDevil	N900: While holding the u key, connect the N900 to your computer via USB. Wait until you see a dim screen on your N900 with a Nokia logo in the middle of your screen with an USB icon in the top right corner. Note: You may not need to hold the U key - it seems to automatically flash if the flasher is ready at boot time.	11:29
archeyDevil	:D	11:29
archeyDevil	Found it :P	11:29
archeyDevil	/ u	11:29
psycho_oreos	I was about to paste that exact same line :þ	11:29
archeyDevil	:)	11:29
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: haha	11:29
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psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, I'd also take note of the paragraph directly below the one you just pasted	11:30
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: already read.	11:30
archeyDevil	Not really much as it's just obvious.	11:30
archeyDevil	imho	11:30
psycho_oreos	true but not all people realises that and complain (and you get all these tmo threads)	11:31
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archeyDevil	http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Ruskie - My remove list -- Anything in that list that I'd have to consider removing or not? (Looks legit to me)	11:31
* archeyDevil will leave adobe flash for the pure fact that cutetube doesn't want to work..		11:32
* archeyDevil might try out another alt		11:32
ruskie	archeyDevil, I use youtube-dl	11:33
archeyDevil	modest -- Thats the email client right?	11:33
* archeyDevil keeps that :P		11:33
archeyDevil	Maybe remove the other language packs..	11:34
archeyDevil	nokiamessaging -- Whats this?	11:34
archeyDevil	Nokia-N900:~# apt-get install ytube qmltube mytube	11:37
* archeyDevil tests out a few :)		11:37
archeyDevil	After this operation, 42.1MB of additional disk space will be used.	11:37
archeyDevil	XD	11:37
archeyDevil	thats more than my average archlinux update.	11:37
* archeyDevil stops talking alone.		11:38
archeyDevil	ruskie: ezitext-english-us You removed this.. There other english?	11:41
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ruskie	archeyDevil, I don't use ezitext at all	11:44
archeyDevil	Okay	11:44
Sicelo	archeyDevil: flashing using hardware button is not actually flashing.. it's just a deep reset .. most usually seen on symbian devices	11:45
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archeyDevil	What is ezitext?	11:52
archeyDevil	ruskie:	11:53
* archeyDevil hates it when ssh stops replying for his phone -.-		11:54
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* archeyDevil thanks xargs :D		11:59
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archeyDevil	stdin http://sprunge.us/eCHM?text	12:02
archeyDevil	wth?	12:02
archeyDevil	It won't let me uninstall them! D:	12:02
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archeyDevil	:) --yes	12:04
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* archeyDevil just removed one very nice feature from maemo :P Just got one desktop/workspace :P		12:12
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archeyDevil	apt-get install aircrack-ng	12:14
archeyDevil	Ahh.. Whoops	12:15
psycho_oreos	needs more than just that	12:15
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: What? aircrack?	12:16
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, yes aircrack-ng needs more than just installing that package alone in order for one to gain benefits	12:16
archeyDevil	True; What to install though? ( Used to backtrack just having it )	12:17
psycho_oreos	kernel power + lxp `bleeding edge' drivers	12:17
archeyDevil	Eh.	12:18
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: Serious, needs custom kernel?	12:18
psycho_oreos	that's just the standard stuff, there's an optional stuff you can install which will allow you to switch between wireless drivers on the fly	12:18
archeyDevil	And more drivers?	12:18
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, for injection support yes..	12:18
archeyDevil	o.O	12:18
* archeyDevil doesn't really need to inject. But yes, I guess thats a great feature.		12:18
* archeyDevil might get a ubertooth so might be monitoring bluetooth too :)		12:19
psycho_oreos	aireplay-ng requires injection and aireplay-ng is part of aircrack-ng suite	12:19
psycho_oreos	there's kismet and bluetooth plugin I think in the repos	12:20
archeyDevil	psycho_oreos: What do I run to get these extra drivers ( and otf driver switcher? )	12:20
psycho_oreos	archeyDevil, there's a thread (well a fair few to be frank) that discusses where to get lxp's drivers. From memory I think its http://david.gnedt.eu/	12:20
psycho_oreos	otf driver switcher was by another bloke, I can't remember the name of the package but I think it was written by ossipena (tmo handle)	12:21
archeyDevil	http://david.gnedt.eu/blog/2010/12/28/bleeding-edge-wl1251-driver-for-maemo-fremantle/	12:21
archeyDevil	:)	12:21
psycho_oreos	you'll still need kp anyway	12:22
psycho_oreos	and kp adds things like USB hostmode which is directly related to your desires in wanting to attach ubertooth to yer N900	12:25
* archeyDevil might continue this tomorrow. I have to go now.. Cya		12:26
psycho_oreos	cya	12:26
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narcos	Hey all. I've installed openvpn, and am trying to start it via the command line with "/etc/init.d/openvpn start"	13:13
narcos	The message I get is "Starting virtual private network daemon: Autostart disabled."	13:14
narcos	And no VPN seems to come up, and the above messages seems like it should only be a warning	13:14
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MohammadAG	Well considering the script is used for autostart...	13:15
MohammadAG	pastebin it	13:15
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cityLights	narcos: you should define a vpn acording to the debian guide lines	13:16
cityLights	where did you put the vpn config files?	13:16
narcos	MohammadAG: Here's the autostart script, which is just the default one which ships with the installation	13:17
narcos	cityLights: I can start the openvpn fine manually, "openvpn --config /etc/openvpn.conf"	13:18
cityLights	right, I remember I had to run it manually	13:18
cityLights	and fixed the script... let me see	13:18
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narcos	ahhhh	13:18
narcos	cityLights: That'd be awesome :)	13:19
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cityLights	narcos: I need 1hr to get the script	13:28
narcos	cityLights: Phew, big config file ;-)	13:29
narcos	cityLights: But no worries, I'll be around	13:29
narcos	cityLights: I appreciate your help	13:30
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cityLights	pls check the talk.maemo.org for openvpn, I think I may have posted it	13:37
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narcos	cityLights: Checking...	13:44
narcos	cityLights: Not finding it...	13:49
cityLights	ok, keep tuned	13:57
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cityLights	btw, you may use a widget to run the vpn config you want	13:58
cityLights	there is a openvpn widget	13:58
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narcos	cityLights: Naww I need to do stuff from CLI	14:38
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MohammadAG	andre__: #maemo-bugs's dead right?	14:43
andre__	MohammadAG, yes	14:44
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cityLights	narcos: I think I just ran it manually from the cli	15:27
cityLights	is this also your version:	15:27
cityLights	85f23f875a45f38c6fcd22d236d67647 /etc/init.d/openvpn	15:27
cityLights	pls run: md5sum /etc/init.d/openvpn and post the line	15:28
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teotwaki	heh	15:38
teotwaki	Chrome beats IE.	15:38
teotwaki	http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-weekly-201121-201221	15:38
jacekowski	well, google did some pretty heavy marketing	15:40
chem\|st	teotwaki: most downloads from IE - mozilla firefox; most initial searches with bling - mozilla firefox	15:41
chem\|st	ehrm bing	15:41
jacekowski	firefox is shit	15:42
jacekowski	i'm not sure if you noticed that firefox is losing users as well	15:42
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chem\|st	jacekowski: firefox is eating RAM	15:44
chem\|st	and getting slow...	15:44
narcos	cityLights: 27b6481561705b9e744da6a6d4b6957b /etc/init.d/openvpn	15:46
narcos	Not the same it seems	15:46
narcos	cityLights: So yeah, I think I'll just do a "openvpn --config /etc/openvpn.conf"	15:47
cityLights	I think its what I did	15:47
cityLights	let me post my init	15:47
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narcos	k cool :)	15:48
narcos	Also, what's the best way to install dhcpd3-server on the maemo? I don't like udhcpd	15:50
narcos	(N900)	15:50
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cityLights	narcos: http://dpaste.com/750758/	15:55
jacekowski	chem\|st: that's nothing new	15:58
jacekowski	chem\|st: it's been doing that for years	15:58
Sicelo	narcos: server? iirc dnsmasq is on by default	15:59
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narcos	cityLights: Thanks!	16:01
narcos	Sicelo: I want to hand out dhcp leases on my hotspot. I'm using udhcpd at the moment	16:02
Sicelo	N900 will hand the IP's out?	16:03
narcos	yeah	16:04
narcos	cityLights:	16:05
narcos	Nokia-N900:/etc/openvpn# /etc/init.d/openvpn start	16:05
narcos	Starting virtual private network daemon: Autostart disabled.	16:05
narcos	With your config	16:05
narcos	Hmm	16:05
Sicelo	dnsmasq can handle that .. examples are here ..http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_PirateBox, http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_router	16:06
narcos	Sicelo: ok thanks	16:09
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narcos	So, for example, I did want to install dhcpd3-server instead of dnsmasq (for existing configs etc) - could I?	16:32
narcos	I can't seem to find a .deb	16:32
Sicelo	definitely not in any repos -- you can roll out your own :P	16:32
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narcos	Sicelo: Not sure what you mean by rolling out my own :)	16:33
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cityLights	he means you can get the source to a development env then make build it	16:34
narcos	ah	16:38
narcos	gotcha	16:39
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juozapas	hi i'm looking for n900 charger circuit. I guess it's similar to iphone charger, it uses not only vcc and gnd but data lines too. anyway, maybe someone has any experience with that ?	17:20
joga	juozapas afaik, you just need to short the data pins	17:21
joga	I just recently built a ghetto solar charger for usb stuff and just soldered the two middle pins together, it worked at least	17:21
joga	but to do a fast charging circuit, I don't know about that	17:22
juozapas	i found that many iphone users put resistors between data lines and vcc gnd	17:22
Sicelo	afaik it's joga's design which is correct for N900	17:23
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merlin1991	juozapas: iphone is fucked up	17:27
merlin1991	n900 follows the usb specs	17:27
merlin1991	thus short that datalines to make the phone recognize your circuit as a "dumb" charger	17:28
jacekowski	well, as much as i hate to say that, apple way of detecting charger is better	17:28
juozapas	:/	17:28
merlin1991	jacekowski: what do they do actually?	17:28
jacekowski	2.5V on data lines	17:29
jacekowski	through iirc 10k resistors from VCC and GND	17:29
jacekowski	rather than dead short	17:29
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jacekowski	http://www.ladyada.net/images/mintyboost/usb4res.png	17:30
jacekowski	2.06V and 2.76V	17:30
juozapas	fuck i have to make new pcb now..	17:31
jacekowski	that way you can always add easy signaling later on	17:32
jacekowski	to signal higher powered charger	17:32
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chem\|st	DocScrutinizer51: did you have an eye on tizen? intel and samsung are promising to bring netbooks (in Q3) and smartphones (in Q4)	17:42
juozapas	is it save to charge other devices (like ebook readers, ipod, camera, gps) with data lines shorted ?	17:43
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flux	tizen was that web2.0 mobile platform?	17:45
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o GeneralAntilles		17:48
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b Theytookourjobs!@		17:48
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b DeRbi!@		17:49
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b pugSk8r_!@		17:49
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b !uslimahan@27.248.218.*		17:49
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*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b !~ju@.cust.tele2.ru		17:51
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b !@154.Red-79-148-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net		17:51
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b \|R1095!@		17:51
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*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b zaleb!@		17:51
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DocScrutinizer51	yay	17:52
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b Teth!@		17:52
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b pupni!@*		17:52
DocScrutinizer51	chem\|st: nope	17:52
GeneralAntilles	^ we probably shouldn't ban him for more than 24 hours.	17:52
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chem\|st	juozapas: it is the USB standard to do so	17:52
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DocScrutinizer51	whom? pupnik?	17:53
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	17:53
DocScrutinizer51	he asked for permanent ban	17:53
chem\|st	o.O	17:53
GeneralAntilles	Did he?	17:53
DocScrutinizer51	yep actrually	17:53
DocScrutinizer51	gently and honest	17:53
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b porcher!@*		17:53
GeneralAntilles	Ah well, hopefully he's over it.	17:53
*** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b !@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net		17:53
MohammadAG	haven't seen him for a while	17:54
DocScrutinizer51	s/gently/polite/	17:54
infobot	DocScrutinizer51 meant: polite and honest	17:54
chem\|st	juozapas: the n900 is the only device I know not charging, but chargers should have datalines crossed	17:54
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chem\|st	flux: LiMo+MeeGo+Intel+Samsung=Tizen	17:55
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GeneralAntilles	OK, keeping the bot bans	17:55
juozapas	chem\|st: what do u mean 'not charging'? if i understand corect it should charge when data lines are crossed	17:56
* DocScrutinizer51 feels reminded at 'orbit cleaning day' as introduced by 'Max Headroom'		17:58
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, whos is pupnik? what he did to earn ban? ;)	18:01
merlin1991	Estel_: be happy not to know :D	18:01
Woody14619	USB2 standard is 200mA at plugin, which is enough to charge most devices when idle (including N900). After negotiation (or proper detection, like shorted data pins) amperage draw can go up to 500mA.	18:01
Estel_	Woody14619, I always heard of 100 mA @ plugin	18:02
Estel_	and 500 after neg.	18:02
Estel_	and after shorted data pins, it can go up to 1.8A	18:03
Estel_	as per usb dedicated charging pin spec	18:03
GeneralAntilles	Estel_, he's a Maemo legend.	18:03
Estel_	negotiation - 500mA, crossed data - 1.8A (up to)	18:03
GeneralAntilles	Estel_, one of the original emulator guys.	18:03
Estel_	thats why I asked, I like legends. Less interested in him (or totally not interested), interested in story behind it	18:04
Woody14619	Estel_, my bad, you are correct, spec is min of 100mA. Most PCs offer 200mA though.	18:04
Woody14619	Estel_: Though USB2 max spec is 900mA. USB3 I believe goes up to 1.8A.	18:05
* Estel_ nods		18:05
Estel_	arghhh, damn fm radio program, it keeps stucking on heavy swap usage	18:06
Estel_	I would be very grateful for proper fm radio implementation (utilising allowed passthrough to jack/speakera without working on cpu power)	18:06
Estel_	No idea why it wasn't ever implemented :/	18:07
MohammadAG	max is 900?	18:07
Woody14619	Mind you, shorted data pins means no negotiations, and the 900mA is max negotiable power by USB2 spec. So... you could run 5A over it if you wanted in your custom app, but be prepared for it to not work with most chargers. ;)	18:07
MohammadAG	Nokia's charger outputs 1200mA	18:07
Estel_	we have one FM radio program with fancy UI, yet bugged as hell	18:07
MohammadAG	which is?	18:08
jacekowski	Woody14619: well, usb specs makes a provision of "negotiation" of current by limiting voltage	18:08
Estel_	Woody14619, I'm absolutely sure 1.8 A is max as per USB dedicated charging port specification	18:08
Estel_	btw, all dumb chargers with usb port are dedicated charging ports	18:08
Estel_	...as usb specified dedicated charging port can't be used for normal usb connection = got data pins shorted solid = it's dumb charger in reality	18:09
Estel_	...coming back to radio thread, we got another radio ap in qt, also working on cpu, but only mono due to bugs in qt...	18:09
Estel_	MohammadAG, "FM Radio" is bugged as hell	18:10
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Estel_	this one with interface looking like old radio	18:10
Woody14619	Estel_, while that may be the concesus amoung manufactures, it's not part of the USB2 spec. (But then neither is shorting the data pins, other then saying that applications must be able to handle that.)	18:10
chem\|st	juozapas: dumb chargers do not negotiate so they have to have crossed datalines for n900s to charge at all	18:10
Estel_	with kinetic scrolling of frequency	18:10
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Estel_	Woody14619, I remember reading about "dedicated" (aka dumb) charging port in usb specification	18:11
Estel_	no idea where, honestly	18:11
jacekowski	nope	18:11
jacekowski	there is separate spec for usb charging	18:11
Woody14619	May have been an addendum at some point, but it's not part of the actual USB spec.	18:11
Estel_	... why the hell no one uses capability of our radio module (analog passthrough without involving cpu yet controlable from userland = from program)	18:12
Estel_	jacekowski, thanks	18:12
* Estel_ agree		18:12
jacekowski	look people	18:12
jacekowski	spec is public	18:12
Estel_	btw under my desktop I got 20A usb charging port :P	18:12
jacekowski	just read it	18:12
jacekowski	http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20_101111.zip	18:13
jacekowski	http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_30_spec_022412.zip	18:13
jacekowski	all docs are there	18:13
Woody14619	Is there a coper path from the radio output to the jack or speakers?	18:13
jacekowski	Woody14619: no	18:13
Estel_	Woody14619, sec, I'll find refference link	18:13
Estel_	unless jacekowski remeber it exactly	18:13
DocScrutinizer51	usb charging supplement	18:14
jacekowski	it's in that zip	18:14
Estel_	jacekowski, but I'm not talking bullshit about analog passthrough, yep?	18:14
Woody14619	jacekowski, Thanks. Yes, I've got a copy of that, but have read mainly the parts I've care about for projects. It's a rather dry/boring read for the most part.	18:14
jacekowski	Estel_: bit pointless	18:14
Estel_	why?	18:14
jacekowski	Estel_: it doesn't use a lot of cpu power	18:14
jacekowski	as long as you don't involve PA	18:14
Estel_	but still = shorten battery life using fm radio. and, what's more important to me...	18:15
Estel_	this thing stutters/freeze on swap usage	18:15
Estel_	analog passthrough should free us from that	18:15
jacekowski	well, that's because implementation is shit	18:15
Estel_	goddamn useless android phones are known for playing radio stutterless even if os hangs up almost completely	18:15
jacekowski	yes, because implementation isn't so fucked up	18:16
jacekowski	n900 uses piece of shit called PA	18:16
Estel_	but they're using passthrough. If i start fm radio on N900 and android, N900 is half second delayed due to processing on cpu	18:16
jacekowski	with plain alsa it could have been done in 3 lines of code that could have been easily mlocked	18:16
Estel_	I see.	18:16
jacekowski	Estel_: again, that's because shit called PA	18:16
Estel_	ok, but analog passthrough take us out of PA too, yep?	18:16
Estel_	I see and understand.	18:16
jacekowski	yes, but that's not required	18:16
jacekowski	you still want notifications and audio from other apps	18:17
jacekowski	so you can't just change over	18:17
Estel_	ok, but implementing passthrough is much more complicated that implementing pa-free on-cpu processing?	18:17
jacekowski	yes	18:17
Estel_	I see.	18:18
Estel_	so what You would propose to properly implement fm radio application, witch least hassle required?	18:18
jacekowski	on n900?	18:18
jacekowski	you can't	18:18
Estel_	yea	18:18
Estel_	hm	18:18
jacekowski	but in simple word	18:19
jacekowski	words	18:19
Woody14619	I propose you go to a dollar store and get a cheep fm receiver... much easer. :)	18:19
jacekowski	get rid of PA	18:19
Estel_	passthrough can't coexist with notifications from programs (latter via pulseaudio)	18:19
jacekowski	change it to alsa builtin DMIX	18:19
Estel_	Woody14619, not the point	18:19
Estel_	I also record fm radio on N900	18:19
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jacekowski	fix all apps that relied on PA directly	18:19
Estel_	passthrough can't coexist with notifications from programs (latter via pulseaudio) <- it was meant to be question, ? got eaten	18:20
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Woody14619	I generally find most of the carp on FM isn't worth listening to, yet alone recording. :P It's 70% commercials and 25% top 40. But to each their own. :)	18:20
Estel_	Woody14619, in Poland we got polish radio program 3 with is all different ;)	18:21
Estel_	for both many polish people and overbroad artist, it's best radio station in the world ;)	18:21
jacekowski	Estel_: not really	18:21
jacekowski	what????????	18:21
jacekowski	stop spreading BS like that	18:21
Estel_	?	18:21
Woody14619	I'm sure it is, if you speak Polish. ;)	18:22
Estel_	erm, gustas et not discutante I would say	18:22
jacekowski	3 is pretty bad	18:22
Estel_	well, see above	18:22
Estel_	(as for overbroad artists I mean Tori Amos, Peter Gabriel, old good leo cohen, Archive, zeppelins, old guys from pink floyd etc etc)	18:23
Woody14619	I mainly use the interent radio for content. And on some occasions shortwave. (Though that's saddly going away, what with BBC reducing US coverage and what not).	18:23
Estel_	all were here in 3's recording studio, and were amazed	18:23
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Estel_	I like when radio speaks to me, instead of shouting playlist on me	18:24
jacekowski	i hate when they talk on radio	18:24
Estel_	3 is quite eclectic	18:24
Estel_	well, if I need background music, I got my own.	18:24
Estel_	from radio I expect something more	18:24
Estel_	personalities, intelligent conversation (also about music), new musical horizons...	18:25
Woody14619	Well, here in the US, you have three choices: FM=Top 40 and commercials, almost exclusivly. AM=Right-wing talk (and maybe PBS/NPR), or pay for XM where you get less commercials but otherwise most of the same content as FM.	18:25
Estel_	it's quite funny, cause, for example, Piotr Kaczkowski is known only for 3's fans in Poland, yet, one of most respected music journalists abroad, at least in so called "ambitious" music world	18:26
Estel_	Woody14619, I know and feel Your pain	18:26
Estel_	3 is all about music and personalities. We've got many real music/music journalist personalities here	18:27
Estel_	both from "old good times" and new ones learning stuff from masters	18:27
Estel_	it's quite a Community around 3	18:27
Estel_	so, when jacekowski said "i don't like when they speak in radio"	18:27
Estel_	it reminds me of iphone fans saying "what, opening terminal to do anything?!"	18:28
Estel_	;)	18:28
jacekowski	i want them to play music	18:28
Estel_	gustas et... etc ;)	18:28
jacekowski	i only listen to radio in a car and i can't really focus on what they are talking about	18:28
Estel_	Iphone fans want them to "just work" ;)	18:28
jacekowski	because i'm focusing on a moron that is behind/in front of me	18:29
Estel_	I understand. Well, I listen to radio almost all awake time, while doing other things too	18:29
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Estel_	yea, another thing about most polish car drivers - everyone see morons all around on street :P	18:29
Estel_	while I agree there are many...	18:29
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Estel_	I'm curious why there is so much aggression, hidden or not, in roads. Never seen that in any other country I've been in, even in eghypt and cairo	18:30
teotwaki	cairo is a country now?	18:30
Estel_	very funny	18:30
teotwaki	anyway, road-rage is everywhere. It's not local.	18:31
Estel_	...but, considering that it's unofficially 27 000 000 people...	18:31
Estel_	and poland is 38 000 000	18:31
Estel_	why not.	18:31
Estel_	teotwaki, I know	18:31
teotwaki	so? London is 15M+, Belgium is 11M+.	18:31
jacekowski	teotwaki: you've never been to poland then	18:31
Estel_	^agree	18:31
teotwaki	jacekowski: actually, I've driven through Poland.	18:31
Estel_	I see jacekowski know what I mean ;)	18:32
jacekowski	things like people ignoring red light, overtaking when it's not safe to do so and things like that are pretty common	18:32
jacekowski	as in, you see it few times a day	18:32
jacekowski	i'm doing something around 40000 miles/year	18:32
teotwaki	and? Grab a taxi in Italy and ask him to get you quickly from one train station to the other -- exactly the same behaviour.	18:32
jacekowski	teotwaki: nothing like that	18:33
jacekowski	first thing	18:33
Estel_	btw, funny fact - in eghypt, where no one cares about lights etc but everyone know it, You got much more small, non-fatal collisions	18:33
jacekowski	in poland people don't try to avoid accidents	18:33
Estel_	although much less fatal ones.	18:33
Estel_	In countries when You actually expect other to obey the law, much less small, unharmfull colisions, yet more fatal ones	18:33
teotwaki	Try India.	18:33
jacekowski	when you see somebody pulls out in front of you	18:34
Estel_	I suspect it's because on eghypt etc everyone know to 100% not trust anyone around	18:34
teotwaki	Egypt*	18:34
jacekowski	in normal country it you slow down first trying to avoid accident	18:34
jacekowski	in poland, first - horn, second - accelerate	18:34
Estel_	jacekowski, but teotwaki got a point here, simillar behavior is in italy	18:34
jacekowski	because they had right of way	18:34
teotwaki	India is probably the worst place on Earth I've had to drive.	18:35
jacekowski	Estel_: in italy taxi driver will try to avoid accidents	18:35
Estel_	...but polish car drivers tend to think they're "better" than those barbarians in italy or egypt	18:35
jacekowski	because that means time without a car and no work	18:35
Estel_	jacekowski, You're exxagerating it a little. idiots happen, but most people will try to avoid accident :P	18:35
jacekowski	Estel_: not really	18:35
jacekowski	Estel_: everywhere else, it's brakes first	18:35
Estel_	teotwaki, agree that india is even worse	18:35
jacekowski	Estel_: in poland it's horn first	18:36
Estel_	but, we're - suppposedly - in europe...	18:36
Estel_	hehe, horn first is really strange thing	18:36
Estel_	although I agre	18:36
jacekowski	and people doing 60km/h or more through towns	18:36
Estel_	if only 60;)	18:36
Estel_	80-90 is absolutely common	18:37
Estel_	110 is seen 2-3 times a day (some idiot)	18:37
Estel_	at least here in Poznan	18:37
Estel_	in warsav it's even worse, sometimes	18:37
jacekowski	which gives you total stopping distance of 40m+	18:37
jacekowski	at 60km/h	18:37
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joga	in india I guess the speeds are relatively low	18:38
teotwaki	joga: beg your pardon?	18:39
joga	teotwaki I haven't driven there, just judging by the videos I've seen and my friends who have	18:39
teotwaki	joga: people will happily do 80-100 (kph) on any road, whether the lights on their vehicle are working or not.	18:39
teotwaki	(at night)	18:39
joga	but in a crowded, messed up intersection in a city it seems unlikely you can even drive straight for more than a couple of meters	18:40
Estel_	hehe, fun thing in india is that people crossing road don't care about anything driving there	18:41
teotwaki	Right outside Pondi, near Auroville, there's a famous crossing -- small dirt road that goes to Avy (actually, might be paved by now) that crosses with a "main" road to Pondi. there's roughly 1 deadly accident a day.	18:41
Estel_	and people driving dont't care about someone crossing road	18:41
jacekowski	joga: yeah, but everyone is trying to avoid bumping into other cars	18:41
teotwaki	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxZxjgKcsPE	18:41
Estel_	it's a interesting think than no road holocaust happens	18:41
teotwaki	(I got a +5 Interesting on Slashdot for posting a link to that video...)	18:42
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joga	when I used to live in soviet russia behind our house there was some road where every week at least there was a pile-up with deaths	18:42
Estel_	btw I remember when guys from polish radio 3 ( ;) ) have gone in motorcycle trip around world	18:42
joga	nowadays I hear the police there fine people even for not using the signals	18:43
Estel_	...and in india...	18:43
Estel_	1 guy without legs on platform with wheels tried as hard ase he could (he was quite fast, suprisingly) to get under motorcycle	18:43
Estel_	as he hope to get money after	18:43
joga	jacekowski yeah, which - I guess - would keep the speeds there low enough that not all of them die :)	18:43
Estel_	they need to kick him during actual driving	18:44
Estel_	to not allow him get under wheel	18:44
joga	how does he stop?	18:44
joga	oh, nevermind	18:44
teotwaki	joga: if you think you get fined in India for not using your indicators, think about this: helmets are "recommended", not obligatory.	18:45
joga	read that the legless guy was attempting to drive the cycle	18:45
Estel_	no idea, there were 2 of them on 2 motorcycles and one of them needed to kick him while avoiding	18:45
joga	teotwaki sure	18:45
Estel_	ahaha	18:45
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MrPingu	merlin1991: Which package do I need for gst-launch-0.10?	18:50
merlin1991	lemme check	18:51
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merlin1991	MrPingu: I think its gstreamer-tools	18:53
MrPingu	Atleast, it downloads something...	18:54
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Estel_	merlin1991, what is /debian/compat file in source package?	18:56
Estel_	most packages have "5" there, although I've seen "7" too	18:56
merlin1991	it's the minimum version of debhelper the package script demands	18:56
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merlin1991	autobuilder runs 5 by default so 5 is perfect	18:56
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Estel_	I see. thanks	18:57
MrPingu	Yes, it is :) Thanks, but ximagesrc is no element?	18:58
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MrPingu	Seems I dont have libistximagesrc.so, from what I found out in google	19:11
MrPingu	Maybe I am missing a plugin package?	19:11
MrPingu	Got to go now, if you know don't hesitate to write it here I will read back the log :)	19:12
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Estel_	Funny, I'm on ad-hoc wifi, listening to fm radio via speakers and browsing tmo via chromim - I'm charging via dedicated charger and barely 150 mA is put into battery, rest consumed by working things	19:13
Estel_	(battery less than half charged, so it's not rate limiting)	19:14
freemangordon	ad-hoc wifi?	19:14
Estel_	yea	19:14
Estel_	it consumes most power	19:14
freemangordon	there is where the current is flowing	19:14
Estel_	exactly	19:14
Estel_	If I would enable torch, make screen to go max brightness + enable gps and something else, I would be consuming more than charging circuit cn pull	19:15
Estel_	can*	19:15
Estel_	I'm on specific situation now - my AP is working in client mode, so I must transfer net via ethernet cable through whole room and corridor, then, my notebook streams wifi to N900 via ad-hoc	19:16
Estel_	if I would have 2 ap's, one would be wifi client, and another one would be connected via cable and spread net under new name	19:17
Estel_	(I'm doing this because signal is enough only in one place oh a house, and using pt with boosted transmit power)	19:17
Estel_	haha, sounds like perfect scenario for stealing wifi bandwidth from someone, lol	19:18
Estel_	not that I'm doing so	19:18
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ioan	Is moving from a n900 to a n9 a good idea or should I keep the n900?	19:23
_berto_	ioan: it all depends on what you're looking for	19:25
_berto_	ioan: the n9 is a smartphone, the n900 is a pocket linux-based computer	19:26
_berto_	that's how I see it	19:26
Gh0sty	not giving any money to mokiasoft	19:26
Corsac	and the n9 has less apps than n900, too	19:26
Corsac	(in case that matters)	19:27
Gh0sty	so i keep my n900	19:27
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Gh0sty	lucky i have it with me right now	19:27
Corsac	well, the n9 is really nice, I dont regret it	19:28
Gh0sty	in hospital for most of the day ... with nothing to do n900 with internet ...	19:28
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Estel_	chem\|st, could You kill this thread? -> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1210290	19:33
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Sicelo	17:19 < Estel_> I also record fm radio on N900 <<< that's why I keep my Nokia N-Gage :P	19:37
Sicelo	;)	19:37
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Sicelo	btw, Estel_, you tried C Fm radio? seems less memory hungry	19:38
chem\|st	Estel_: done	19:43
chem\|st	Estel_: there is a report button, do you know about it?	19:44
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DocScrutinizer	(If I would enable torch, make screen to go max ...) and do 3G massive data	19:55
DocScrutinizer	and vibra	19:55
DocScrutinizer	and video decoding	19:55
DocScrutinizer	I can't suggest vboost as that's mutually exclusive with charging ;-P	19:56
Sicelo	:P	20:00
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freemangordon	Estel_, the guy having problems recording in HD on TMO said he has downgraded to CSSU-stable	20:02
freemangordon	and camera-ui is only in -testing	20:03
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MrPingu	Can you pull more 1200 mAh?	20:04
MrPingu	I mean my charger says output 1200 mAh	20:05
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MrPingu	merlin1991: Which other gst-packages do you have installed?	20:11
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, may I ask you (politely) next time when you question my expertise and experience on driving SW projects to let me at least be a part of the conversation. It would be even better if you have some information on what I do for life, what is my posstion in the company I work for, etc...	20:13
DocScrutinizer	eh?	20:14
DocScrutinizer	wazzup?	20:14
DocScrutinizer	bitter about my notion that's missing some indication of experience in risk management in your acting?	20:16
freemangordon	bitter? no, just think it is fair if I am included in conversation too	20:17
DocScrutinizer	sure thing	20:18
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DocScrutinizer	sorry if you feel I acted incorrectly	20:19
freemangordon	NP, lets move on. DocScrutinizer, according to those logs you somehow were able to read the logs re thumb2 on #beagle	20:19
DocScrutinizer	only what you pasted	20:21
freemangordon	that is all :)	20:21
DocScrutinizer	I supported you in claiming a proper discussion with those who think they know was the right approach	20:22
DocScrutinizer	the problem is it's a niche case for them	20:22
DocScrutinizer	so probably way too much effort for zero ROI from their perspective	20:22
freemangordon	and it the end it turned out(at least that is my understanding) that they don't care/never tried hard to achieve it	20:23
freemangordon	yep	20:23
DocScrutinizer	the real pity is all that knowledge wasted	20:23
freemangordon	BTW Estel_'s words for FUD spreading are not so distant from the reality AIUI	20:24
DocScrutinizer	which is a sad case that at least allows us to learn from it: never neglect documenting what you do	20:25
freemangordon	As I can bet both n900s I have, that thumb errata workaround was never enabled on n900 since a month ago.	20:26
freemangordon	yeah, sure	20:26
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freemangordon	now, AIUI you(and maybe Jaffa) insist on having a proper testbed. I will think on that, but having in mind the errata description, I don't think it is possible without speciol tools which most probably only TI has.	20:29
DocScrutinizer	I don't think it's particularly hard to plumb together some assembler that reliably provokes the error	20:29
freemangordon	BTW, did you read errata description?	20:29
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, I think it is impossible	20:30
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DocScrutinizer	why?`	20:30
freemangordon	if we go into the details, I don't think I am that good in ARM assembler to be able to control BTB/BTAC contents on every cycle	20:31
DocScrutinizer	aah	20:31
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freemangordon	read the errata description again	20:31
freemangordon	what conditions are needed, so it to be triggered	20:31
freemangordon	want a link?	20:31
DocScrutinizer	sure	20:31
freemangordon	http://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/ARM_ERRATA_430973.html	20:32
DocScrutinizer	if ARM (and THUMB) opcode description doesn't allow to precisely smith a piece of code that invokes the error, then I'd say ARM is crap	20:32
DocScrutinizer	(the company)	20:33
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, there is a pile of debug registers you have access to once attached to jtag ;)	20:33
DocScrutinizer	I know	20:33
freemangordon	and it is not the code itself, it is the branch prdictor which does not realize that there are new instructions on the same virtual address	20:34
DocScrutinizer	and just 6h ago I talked with a colleague about how to exploit the HTB in ARM for a FOSS project	20:34
freemangordon	HTB?	20:34
DocScrutinizer	Hardware Treace Block or sth	20:35
freemangordon	aah, ok	20:35
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DocScrutinizer	a nice IP that recors the last nn k of instructions and register data	20:36
DocScrutinizer	it can get read out not only via JTAG	20:36
freemangordon	I realy can't think of anything besides turning u-boot upside-down, hoping I am smart enough to make the correct conclusions based on short description of the errata	20:36
DocScrutinizer	we're developing a AppProc based debugging tool at my company	20:37
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, not entirely true, those can be rad, but only in secure priviledged mode if one of the core pins has the appropriate level on boot	20:37
freemangordon	*read	20:37
freemangordon	CP15DISABLE or something	20:37
DocScrutinizer	quite possible that this HS shit interferes	20:38
freemangordon	that is for sure	20:38
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DocScrutinizer	even possible the OMAP3430 has no ETB (not HTB, E like Embedded)	20:39
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freemangordon	so, there are 2 options left AIUI. You may accept my logic why errata workarounds work. After all we have quantum theory based almost on pure (i) logical thinking :). BTW I am not sure i've ever tried to.	20:41
freemangordon	s/i've/you've/	20:42
infobot	freemangordon meant: so, there are 2 options left AIUI. You may accept my logic why errata workarounds work. After all we have quantum theory based almost on pure (i) logical thinking :). BTW I am not sure you've ever tried to.	20:42
freemangordon	the other is to wait long enough thumb-testing to have enough users, and if there is no single sigill report for a long enough period of time (2-3 months) to assume that stable. After all we are talking about handheld device here, not a banking core server	20:44
DocScrutinizer	to me the explanation is pretty clear	20:45
freemangordon	yes, it is	20:45
freemangordon	and the workaround is, too	20:45
DocScrutinizer	you simply run a interworking branch, then replace it by something that's not switching from ARM to THUMB or vice versa, and run it again -> BOOM	20:46
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freemangordon	do you think it is so simple?	20:47
DocScrutinizer	according to that description it is	20:47
freemangordon	in a multi-process environment?	20:47
DocScrutinizer	nah	20:48
DocScrutinizer	you for sure block all interrupts before you run that testbed	20:48
DocScrutinizer	a testbed needs no X sever to output the results relatime	20:50
freemangordon	well, I am not so good in omap kernel hacking (so far). But will think If I could do something in user space.	20:50
DocScrutinizer	realtime*	20:50
freemangordon	yeah, maybe u-boot	20:50
freemangordon	but again, if we change the conditions, then the testbed is not correct	20:51
freemangordon	if I don't do context switchws, then the workaround is useless	20:51
freemangordon	if I do, then I cannot predict when I will hit it	20:52
freemangordon	see	20:52
freemangordon	i meant "when i will hit the errara"	20:53
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DocScrutinizer	nope, that's not how a testbed is meant to work and to prove things	20:59
freemangordon	what we are trying to prove?	20:59
freemangordon	errata existance or workaround effectiveness?	20:59
DocScrutinizer	the fact that opcode sequence A, B ,	20:59
DocScrutinizer	C d	20:59
DocScrutinizer	breaks on C without your fix	21:00
freemangordon	as workaround is meant to fix things in multi-process environment	21:00
DocScrutinizer	and runs with your fix	21:00
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, ok, I will try to do some user-mode stuff which provoces it	21:01
freemangordon	*provokes	21:01
DocScrutinizer	good	21:01
DocScrutinizer	:-D	21:01
freemangordon	but can't promise anything, so you think on your side what will be the next best option :P	21:02
freemangordon	as it is more than obvious that the only(accesible) expertise left on that matter is here	21:03
DocScrutinizer	alas this seems right	21:05
DocScrutinizer	freemangordon: we seen modest segfaulting like mad when compiled for THUMB, no?	21:06
freemangordon	yes	21:06
freemangordon	every minute or so	21:06
DocScrutinizer	maybe it's possible to reduce modest code to the bare minimum needed for triggering that degfault	21:06
DocScrutinizer	maybe even running it under gdb and watch it segfault	21:07
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, it is not the modest itself, every application behaves like that. ANd it is not only htumb-compiled, arm binaries SIGILL too	21:07
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, it is not SEGFAULT, write it down somewhere for further reference :P	21:08
freemangordon	it is SIGILL	21:08
freemangordon	I've seen that a lots of times for the last months	21:08
DocScrutinizer	I'm just saying somewhere inside modest there hast to be that core A,B,C.D opcode sequence that proves your patch effective	21:08
DocScrutinizer	sure sure sigill	21:09
freemangordon	CPU tries to execute thumb instruction (i.e. PC%4 !=0) in ARM mode and sigills	21:09
freemangordon	but it is not a specific instruction sequence that bugs the core, it is some random memory mammping	21:10
freemangordon	*mapping	21:10
DocScrutinizer	err, then modest wouldn't run even with your patch?	21:11
freemangordon	it will, as branch predictor "stale data" is flushed after the context is switched to "modest" and before the control is returned to user space. So on the next branch CPU will read the code and will behave as it should, instead of relying on what BP thinks	21:12
freemangordon	BTW patch is from TI, not mine	21:13
freemangordon	MY part is actually enabling it by calling the secure monitor	21:14
DocScrutinizer	even the better - then we only need to show your part actually enables the patch	21:15
freemangordon	oooh, that is easy :D	21:15
DocScrutinizer	as I'm absolutely sure TI tested the patch for effectiveness	21:15
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, why you don't read what I wrote	21:15
DocScrutinizer	err, I do	21:16
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, in this case You don't :P	21:16
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freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, what I did is to run u-boot and to get the contents of ACR. We need IBE bit set. It is not	21:17
Estel_	freemangordon said ages ago that negators are forcing himto prove that TI err5a does what it does	21:17
Estel_	he proved long time ago that his method to enable Ti's workaround is working	21:17
Estel_	and all concerns from You ( DocScrutinizer ) , dm8tbr, Jaffa etc were based on doubts that TI errata does what it promises	21:18
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Estel_	i.e. testbed would only be meant to prove the latter	21:18
Estel_	(checking if TI does what promises with errata)	21:18
DocScrutinizer	an erratum never promises anything, it's simply an exiasting annoyance	21:18
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, patch code is here http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/git-commits-head/2009/5/3/5622724 , follow me and I will explain why what we have in KP does not work and how I make it work	21:18
Estel_	exactly	21:18
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Estel_	but but insisting on testbed, You wanted mechanism to prove that errata isn't fcked up itself	21:19
freemangordon	the patch consist of two parts, first is setting IBE bit in ACR	21:19
Estel_	nevermind	21:19
freemangordon	+mrcp15, 0, r10, c1, c0, 1@ read aux control register	21:19
freemangordon	+orrr10, r10, #(1 << 6)@ set IBE to 1	21:19
freemangordon	+mcrp15, 0, r10, c1, c0, 1@ write aux control register	21:19
freemangordon	sorry	21:19
Estel_	freemangordon is saying more interesting stuff than me, so bear with him ;)	21:19
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, the part of the patch which sets IDE bit in ACR does not work on n900	21:20
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	21:20
freemangordon	as ACR is not accessible in unsecure priviledged mod (i.e. kernel)	21:20
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	21:20
freemangordon	same for u-boot	21:21
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Estel_	...in meantime, I got question about program (well, just set of interconnected scripts) I'm preparing for repositories, so just tell me when You two ends and I'll ask, as I'm ashamed to break such conversation) ;)	21:21
freemangordon	A month or so ago I found an SMC call (that is a call that transfers the control to ROM code) which is used for setting ACR contents	21:21
freemangordon	And it is desctibed in TRM by the way	21:22
freemangordon	*described	21:22
DocScrutinizer	fine, so I stae I think your patch is fine, for the scope of this erratum	21:22
DocScrutinizer	state*	21:22
freemangordon	so I patched u-boot https://gitorious.org/~freemangordon/u-boot-shr/freemangordons-u-boot/commit/409fec178945067233629a471653361b927c05f0	21:23
Estel_	when I told You same thing You negated it :( just joking, I was using term secure mode, which probably wasn't so clear to You ( DocScrutinizer )	21:23
DocScrutinizer	now we only got this rumour there are two errata and allegedly mutually exclusive. We'd need to find who invented that and if he was right or wrong	21:23
freemangordon	aah, that rumor, yeah	21:24
Estel_	afaik 2nd errata is in bin space	21:24
freemangordon	give me a second and I will explain (with the links)	21:24
freemangordon	Estel_, no	21:24
Estel_	and 3th errata is irrelevant if 1st errata is in place	21:24
Estel_	Ok, swicthing to listening mode :P	21:24
freemangordon	just give me some time	21:24
DocScrutinizer	Estel_: a patch isn't an erratum	21:24
DocScrutinizer	erratum=bug, patch=fix	21:25
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, true, true	21:25
Estel_	in meantime, when freemangordon searchs, I'll ask my small question ok?	21:25
Estel_	first one is rather simple	21:25
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, the errata which we are told is mutually exclusive (and its number is stated in logs on #beagle dm8tbr is talking about) is 687067	21:25
Estel_	I would like to "unleash" (in sh script) notification that stays until that line of code is done	21:26
Estel_	(showing processing circle)	21:26
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer: that is what I found about it, not Cortex-a8, but the same OMAP3 core http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/errata/IMX50CE.pdf	21:26
freemangordon	search the pdf for 687067	21:27
freemangordon	and read the errata description. My understanding is that someone has misread that as setting the IBE bit would lead to errata triggering, and because part of the previous workaround is setting the IBE bit, thus mutual exclusivity	21:28
Estel_	(i.e. re-enabling swap, and popping-up notification about it via maemo notifications, that stays until lines of code responsible for reswapping aren't finished)	21:28
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, which is nonsense, as to really trigger errata 687067, one have to issue "invalidate Branch predictor by MVA"	21:29
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freemangordon	along with having IBE bit enabled. But workaround for the previous errata does not issue "invalidate Branch predictor by MVA", but "Invalidate entire branch predictor array."	21:33
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javispedro	untrue	21:34
freemangordon	so errata 687067 is never triggered.	21:34
javispedro	it is the same thing	21:34
javispedro	behind the scenes	21:35
freemangordon	javispedro, those are 2 diffrent operations, check on ARM side, coprocessor c7, cache operations	21:35
DocScrutinizer	(My understanding is that someone...) yes	21:35
javispedro	I know, they have a one bit difference iirc	21:35
freemangordon	and it is clearly stated that errata is triggered by "invalidate by MVA"	21:36
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freemangordon	javispedro: "3. An invalidate Branch predictor by MVA operation is executed"	21:37
javispedro	this is not an errata	21:38
javispedro	it is actually intentional	21:38
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DocScrutinizer	anyway 687047 explains that a proper initialized to 0 "L1 System Array Debug Register 0" will "fix" the erratum, just as does IBE=0	21:38
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, we don't have acces to that	21:38
freemangordon	*access	21:39
freemangordon	javispedro, if you have some additional documentation, please share it. What is not errata? And why is that intentional, what intention?	21:39
* mva >_> freemangordon		21:40
javispedro	"debug"	21:40
javispedro	the entire acr is for debug stuff	21:41
javispedro	*acr register	21:41
freemangordon	and how is that related?	21:41
javispedro	ibe	21:41
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javispedro	you are not supposed to use it :)	21:42
freemangordon	aaah, ok	21:42
DocScrutinizer	???	21:42
freemangordon	:)	21:42
javispedro	in any case	21:42
freemangordon	javispedro, where did you get that from?	21:42
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javispedro	there is a true official way to disable the branch predictor iirc	21:42
DocScrutinizer	yes	21:42
freemangordon	and btw we are talking about upstream patch, not some invention of mine	21:42
freemangordon	javispedro, disable the whole BP? why should anyone want to do that?	21:43
freemangordon	and how is that related to workaround working/not?	21:44
Estel_	andp again, please provide sources of Your informations, javispedro	21:44
DocScrutinizer	if any possible	21:44
Estel_	s/andp/and	21:44
* Estel_ is wondering why s/ / never works for him		21:45
freemangordon	you are missing the last /	21:45
DocScrutinizer	because it's s/ / /	21:45
Estel_	thanks	21:45
Estel_	guys, again, could please someone tell me how to invoke notification, that is persisting until operation in that line of code (which it's attached to) ends?	21:46
Estel_	for example, sh script that re-enables swap - I would like maemo notification (yellow bar) to pop-up and stay until it proceeds	21:46
javispedro	freemangordon: was thinking to check if the crashes stop	21:46
Estel_	saying "Re-enabling swap..."	21:47
DocScrutinizer	Estel_: no known method to close a notification programmatically	21:47
Estel_	damn, Saturn is using it on Cleven	21:47
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Estel_	during searching for surrounding networks	21:48
Estel_	it says "scanning for networks"	21:48
Estel_	and anomated circle is inside this yellow notification bar - this whole thing dissapear after search is complete	21:48
freemangordon	javispedro: I (and not only me) am able to boot and use ubuntu 12.04 with those fixes. Without them it crashes(SIGILL) every 15-20 seconds	21:48
Estel_	if it take 5 seconds, it persist for 5 seconds. If it take 30, it stays 30 sec	21:49
Estel_	will need to ask saturn I suppose	21:49
DocScrutinizer	687067 is a rather unlikely_to_happen erratum	21:49
Estel_	2nd question, much moreimportant for actual operation of my "program", so please, bear with me	21:50
Estel_	I want to create a script, meant to be used only once...	21:50
DocScrutinizer	nevertheless we should fix it before moving to a system that might trigger it	21:50
Estel_	that sources config filled by user, and patches /event.d/rcS-late accordingly	21:51
Estel_	replacing given line with other content	21:51
freemangordon	javispedro, have in mind you will need latest u-boot and KP49 or custom build KP50 with workaround for 430973 enabled, as it is disabled in KP50	21:51
Estel_	could anyone tell me, how such script should look like?	21:51
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer, again, it is never triggered	21:51
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Estel_	of course, initially I'm sourcing config file with values, then using those values to prepare proper lines	21:51
DocScrutinizer	please discuss this with javispedro, it seems he thinks different	21:52
DocScrutinizer	as I'm away for dinner now - sorry	21:52
javispedro	I... don't, actually	21:52
Estel_	then, I want script (run as root) to find certain line in rcS-late, and replace it with line defined in my script	21:52
javispedro	if it's working, what was the problem then?	21:52
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer is not convinced :D	21:53
javispedro	you will still see random failures in jitted code	21:53
Estel_	javispedro, the thing is that many - otherwise respectable - people think that errata fix is not applicable to N900	21:53
Estel_	no matter what	21:53
javispedro	well	21:53
DocScrutinizer	I am the problem, I want to know it really got fixed and not simply moved elsewhere, like an alignment error in data section	21:53
Estel_	without any reasoning, beside some FUD ;)	21:53
freemangordon	btw I have to go, otherwise I risk my GF leaving :D	21:53
javispedro	the errata imposes a small cycle penalty on context switch	21:54
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, isn't the problem	21:54
javispedro	s/the errata/the fix	21:54
javispedro	well, _comparatively_ small	21:54
freemangordon	javispedro, yes, but the point is that we have 20-40 % reduction in codesize	21:54
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Estel_	dm8tbr, and some random clueless arm employee was more of a problem	21:54
freemangordon	and having in mind RAM size on n900...	21:55
freemangordon	we could get rid of most of the swapping	21:55
Estel_	...it would make me happy penguing	21:55
javispedro	that is the part I don't believe	21:55
freemangordon	which part?	21:55
dm8tbr	Estel_: stop being a jerk. I tried to help and the conversation between gordon and mru didn't go beyond chitchat.	21:56
* DocScrutinizer waves		21:56
Estel_	I don't think 20-40% would get us out of swapping, but I belive It would reduce it	21:56
Estel_	s/It/it/	21:56
infobot	Estel_ meant: I don't think 20-40% would get us out of swapping, but I belive it would reduce it	21:56
javispedro	cya DocScrutinizer	21:56
freemangordon	but of course	21:56
freemangordon	there is no way we could run only in RAM, but still	21:56
Estel_	dm8tbr, not necessary, when I discutted with You last time, You were making stupid facedesks and other emoticons	21:56
Estel_	without any counter-reasoning	21:57
freemangordon	20-30 (or even more) MB of free RAM will make a difference	21:57
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freemangordon	BTW I got to go too, happy arguing :P	21:57
Estel_	and I was using same argumentd as freemangordon today, yet using less technical wording, as I'm much less experienced. Still, merit was understandable for anyone with willing other thing making laughs	21:57
Estel_	freemangordon, see ya	21:58
dm8tbr	Estel_: I do not think I need to discuss this with you. If anyone else here wants to, that's fine, but you have been hostile from the get got, so please just go put me on ignore and stop being a jerk. KTXBAI	21:58
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Estel_	I see no hostility on discussing, I'm just stating facts. anyway, it's no problem for me	21:58
Estel_	and I don't need excuses, if this was meant to be it ;)	21:59
dm8tbr	FOAD plonk	21:59
Estel_	lets just move forward	21:59
Estel_	BTW, last time You've used this face on a desk when I was talking about possible source of FUD around errata, so...	21:59
Sicelo	~foad	21:59
infobot	foad is probably \"fuck off and die\". Considered by many to be impolite.	21:59
Estel_	take Your time, it's EOT for me	22:00
Estel_	haha	22:00
Estel_	Sicelo, n1	22:00
Sicelo	n1? i just didn't know that foad thingie	22:00
Estel_	I think he meant face on a desk, though	22:00
Estel_	still, it's his face, so, let him enjoying it.	22:00
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Sicelo	oh	22:01
Sicelo	:D	22:01
Estel_	but it mixed nicely with discussion	22:01
Estel_	merlin1991, ping	22:01
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Sicelo	just one question from me regarding this Thumb thing: say we all eventually embrace it, etc and we start using thumb-compiled stuff ... what about the stuff which can't be thus recompiled, eg bme?	22:04
* Sicelo doesn't even really know what this Thumb is (besides being some property of the CPU)		22:05
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Estel_	theoretically, there is a speed disadvantage when running non-thumb compiled code AND errata fix applied, but, it's hardly noticeable in real life	22:06
Estel_	and speed gain due to less ram used by core components is much bigger advantage	22:06
Estel_	thumb2 is just a flag during compiling, from developer side	22:06
freemangordon	Sicelo, it will continue to work as before "thumb era"	22:07
freemangordon	there is no need to re-compile everything	22:07
Estel_	freemangordon, You've lost girlfriend? haven't beed suspecting You'll return so quickly ;)	22:07
freemangordon	Estel_, luckily she got a phonecall, still talking :D	22:08
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Estel_	:D	22:08
Estel_	wouldn't You mind to help such a noob as me with small thing?	22:08
freemangordon	so actually I didn't return, nut still not left	22:08
Estel_	question, actually	22:08
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Sicelo	i see.	22:09
freemangordon	Sicelo, thumb 2 instructions are 16bit (2 bytes) while ARM are 32 bits(4 bytes)	22:09
Estel_	I'm finishing small package that I wqant to upload into repos. Last thing that is keeping me from it is that I would like to spare editing of rcS-late to users by hand	22:09
freemangordon	sed?	22:09
Estel_	I want to create a single-run script, that will read config file...	22:09
Estel_	and find line in rcS-late + replace it with thing I prepare	22:10
Estel_	(using variables from config)	22:10
Estel_	I know how to source etc	22:10
Estel_	just how to properly sed	22:10
Estel_	rcS-late (or any other existing script)	22:10
Estel_	I'm big noob here	22:10
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Estel_	so example of hyphotetical line of code would help much	22:11
Estel_	lets say I want to find a "foo" line in rcS-late and replace it with "bar is great"	22:12
freemangordon	Estel_, I am not the best one to ask re shell scripts, but AFAIK you should use sed to do a inline replacement, along with leaving your "signiture" somewhere in the script to avoid double replacements. Sorry, I think it is better to ask DocScrutinizer or merlin1991	22:12
Estel_	ok, thanks a lot for suggestion anyway	22:12
Estel_	I'll try messing with seed or ask them	22:12
Estel_	tried that, but DocScrutinizer was too much on thumb thing and merlin1991 is absent, will try to catch them	22:12
freemangordon	*sed	22:12
freemangordon	not seed :P	22:13
* Estel_ is going to read about sed		22:13
Estel_	:P	22:13
freemangordon	you'd better not, justr ask google	22:13
freemangordon	*just	22:13
Sicelo	sed -e -i s/<original>/<new>/ <filename>	22:13
freemangordon	:nod:	22:13
Sicelo	i think it's like that	22:13
freemangordon	why -e ?	22:13
freemangordon	abyway, bb	22:14
freemangordon	*anyway	22:14
Estel_	oh god, sed is the thing I'm using to correct lines here? I said I'm noob	22:14
Estel_	see ya, thanks!	22:14
Sicelo	yeah, lol.. remove the 'e'	22:14
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Sicelo	anyway, reading is best .. ;)	22:16
Raimu	:P	22:16
Woody14619	Estel_, technicaly, sed is based on ed, a line editor the came before vi. (s = streem)	22:16
Raimu	...whoops, wrong window. Sorry.	22:17
Estel_	Woody14619, nice to know	22:17
Estel_	hm, I've searched about it, but can't find what freemangordon meant by "kind of signature" to avoid double-replacing	22:18
Woody14619	Also note, that most ed commands still work in vi when in ed mode (using :) So :s/orig/new/ works in vi as well. (one per line, append a g to the end to have it happen multiple times per line)	22:18
DocScrutinizer	yeah. ed anybody?	22:18
DocScrutinizer	:-P	22:18
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DocScrutinizer	Woody14619: probably s in sed wasn't for stream but for silly	22:18
DocScrutinizer	;-)	22:18
Sicelo	lulz	22:19
DocScrutinizer	ed is really a monster	22:19
javispedro	Estel_: you are being way overoptimistic	22:19
Woody14619	lol :) Yes, ed sucks, but was a lot nicer than puch cards, which was the other option at the time.	22:19
DocScrutinizer	edlin and whatnot else	22:19
javispedro	let's assume for a moment that thumb actually produces a 40% reduction in code size, which I don't believe	22:19
Woody14619	.oO(and vi doesn't work well on tele-type devices, which lack screens...)	22:20
DocScrutinizer	indeed	22:20
javispedro	use procps to measure the text resident size of all processes in the system	22:20
javispedro	iirc, on a fresh booted n900 it was around 50MiB	22:20
javispedro	note that this is overly pessimistic as this countes shared pages twice	22:20
javispedro	s/twice/more than once	22:20
Woody14619	edlin was the crappy MS nock-off of ed. It would be like compairing the "NOKlA" brand "n900" against the one from NOKIA.... ;)	22:21
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javispedro	you will save 25MiB _hard_ maximum	22:21
javispedro	the real number will probably be way less than that	22:21
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Estel_	javispedro, any way I could measure text resident size of processes I've enabled now?	22:21
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Estel_	what's the point of measuring it for fresh system	22:21
javispedro	use procps, grep man for text resident size	22:21
Estel_	on fresh system You hardly use swap	22:22
javispedro	fremantle preloads, you know	22:22
Estel_	problem is when You use qt things	22:22
Estel_	yes.	22:22
DocScrutinizer	and on system with huge uptime, memory gets used by data, not progamtext	22:22
javispedro	a fresh system here has already a bunch of all the most used apps	22:22
Estel_	but printfood for not-preloaded things, yet thumb compiled, will drop to, yes?	22:22
Estel_	s/to/too	22:23
javispedro	"yes"	22:23
DocScrutinizer	the size of code stays the same	22:23
Estel_	s/to/too/	22:23
infobot	Estel_ meant: s/too/too	22:23
DocScrutinizer	haha	22:23
Woody14619	:)	22:23
Estel_	I mean that, during usage of memory-heavy things, we main gain more	22:23
Estel_	:)	22:23
DocScrutinizer	no	22:23
DocScrutinizer	memory heavy things are heavy on data, not on code	22:24
Estel_	byw 25 MB would be more than 10% ;)	22:24
Estel_	true	22:24
DocScrutinizer	btw code never gets swapped out	22:24
Estel_	(in fact it depends, but generally true)	22:24
javispedro	DocScrutinizer was missing a "to swap" there.	22:24
Estel_	so it's even more important to have it with reduced size ;)	22:24
DocScrutinizer	useless to swap out code, as it's already on 'disk'	22:25
javispedro	aka code never gets swapped out to swap :)	22:25
Estel_	all after all we get more ram available for data that don't need to be swapped out	22:25
* DocScrutinizer waves again		22:25
Estel_	considering ramzswap was a way to gain a little ram at cost of CPU	22:25
Estel_	cycles	22:26
javispedro	Estel_: as said, this is assuming 40% code reduction (which I don't believe), and 0% loss in performance (which I don't believe either)	22:26
Estel_	and now we can gain a little ram without any cost (almost)	22:26
Estel_	I think it's worrth effort	22:26
javispedro	well	22:26
javispedro	it's an effort.	22:26
Estel_	everything is :)	22:26
javispedro	for the interesting programs, it will for sure not be as simple as toggling -mthumb	22:27
Estel_	cdreating HD video recording for N900 was an huge effort too, and I enjoy it very much	22:27
javispedro	think inline asm, etc.	22:27
Estel_	hm.	22:27
Estel_	last two lines should be forwarded to freemangordon, I've no idea, frankly	22:27
javispedro	also, I don't remember if interworking is enabled =)	22:27
Estel_	would be interested in his comment about it	22:27
Estel_	btw I mean that even "wasting" cpu cycles for compression using ramzswap is a win, most of the times, on system with low ram	22:28
Woody14619	javispedro, I believe the 40%... The stats on that are pretty firm. But it's not a huge ammount. Still, if it's available, even getting back 15-20Mb would make a difference for some people, usage dependant.	22:28
Estel_	so such "almost" free ram gain is a real deal	22:28
javispedro	Woody14619: 40% would mean that ~40% of the code doesn't need the extra upper arm registers	22:29
javispedro	still possible and quite certain for some programs, but I have my doubts if that will be the case for "everything"	22:29
Estel_	only one way to check that	22:30
Estel_	for sure	22:30
Estel_	actually trying :)	22:30
javispedro	feel free	22:30
Estel_	cssu devel sounds great place for that	22:31
Estel_	s/sounds/seems like/	22:31
infobot	Estel_ meant: cssu devel seems like great place for that	22:31
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Woody14619	Which is believable, and even testable. I'm betting it compiles a little differntly, but most would compile fine. It is an effort, yes. But if there's a working patch for the issue, it may be worth it for some.	22:33
Estel_	as for sed	22:34
Estel_	ok, but how will it allow me to replace multi-line things in config?	22:34
Estel_	s/config/file/	22:34
infobot	Estel_ meant: ok, but how will it allow me to replace multi-line things in file?	22:34
Estel_	lets say I want my script to replace 2-liner in rcS-late with 7-liner	22:35
Estel_	Sicelo, DocScrutinizer, Woody14619?	22:35
Sicelo	that's for the greats :P	22:36
Sicelo	i think you will use a bunch of \n though	22:36
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Estel_	probably right	22:37
Woody14619	yup yup. Or, if you're feeling really self-damaging, look at awk. :)	22:41
Woody14619	work becons	22:41
Estel_	hm, smth bad	22:45
Estel_	sed s/original\n3liner\ncontent/new\n2linder/	22:45
Estel_	doesnt work	22:45
Estel_	it should replace 3 lines	22:46
Estel_	"original 3liner content"	22:46
Estel_	with 2 lines "new 2linder" (typo, should be liner, but whatever)	22:46
Estel_	any ideas?	22:46
Sicelo	~jrtools	22:47
infobot	methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools	22:47
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NIN101	I am no sed pro according to my experience multilne replacements with sed are PITA.	22:47
Estel_	it says "unmatched "/"	22:47
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Estel_	agree. what's better alternative?	22:48
Estel_	(unmatched "/" probably mean it wasn't able to find matching original content due to \n's inside)	22:48
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Sicelo	you used the "?	22:49
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Estel_	?	22:51
Estel_	could You elaborate more?	22:51
Sicelo	look..i'm worse than even NIN101 on this :P	22:52
Sicelo	i was just asking if you remembered to use the quote marks in appropriate places .. sed -i "s/.../.../"	22:53
Estel_	of course forget about it, thanks a lot	22:54
Estel_	will try now	22:54
Estel_	btw request here	22:55
Estel_	does anyone have unmodified rcS-late?	22:55
Estel_	could You please paste it to zerobin or any pastebin?	22:55
Sicelo	lol..me doesn't even know where that stays :P	22:58
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Estel_	now sed is working for me and I can replace one linders properly	23:00
Estel_	yet, no way of using \n allows me to replace multi-liners	23:01
Estel_	i've tried:	23:01
Estel_	line1\nline2	23:01
Estel_	line1 \nline2	23:01
Estel_	line1\n line2	23:01
Estel_	line1 \n line2	23:01
Estel_	...al to no avail	23:01
Estel_	s/al/all/	23:02
infobot	Estel_ meant: ...all to no avail	23:02
Estel_	any ideas, anyone? Woody14619?	23:02
Sicelo	where's this rsS-late	23:02
Estel_	/etc/event.d/rcS-late	23:02
* Sicelo is lazy to do a find		23:02
Estel_	critical file during booting	23:02
Estel_	file isn't problem here I'm testing it with test file	23:02
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Estel_	problem is with replacing multi liners with multiliners	23:03
Sicelo	oh, i thought you wanted it pasted? :\	23:03
Estel_	ah sorry	23:03
Estel_	of course	23:03
Estel_	forget, but still need it	23:03
Estel_	:P	23:03
Estel_	I could invoke sed multiple times, but it still doesn't allow me to change number of lines to greater	23:04
Estel_	(I could replace 7 lines with less, for example, 5, by replacing unnecesary lines with spaces...)	23:05
Sicelo	http://paste.debian.net/170489/	23:05
Estel_	(but can't change 5 lines to 7)	23:05
Estel_	thanks a lot	23:05
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Estel_	so now only sed problem remains	23:06
NIN101	Estel_	23:06
NIN101	system-services	23:07
NIN101	this package contains /etc/event.d/rcS-late	23:07
Estel_	thanks.	23:07
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Estel_	anyway, problem with correct way for multi-lines replacing with arbitrary lines number still persist	23:08
Estel_	I want to replace 1 line with multiliner :/	23:08
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, ping	23:09
Sicelo	http://www.refining-linux.org/archives/27/20-Multi-line-sed-search-and-replace/	23:10
Estel_	oh	23:10
Estel_	thanks!	23:10
* Estel_ is going to read		23:10
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DocScrutinizer	Estel_: use diff / patch	23:12
* DocScrutinizer away again, cursing his own life		23:12
Estel_	thanks...	23:12
* Sicelo gets ready for bed		23:13
Sicelo	this channel rocks.. 98% of my linux knowledge comes from here :P	23:14
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GNUtoo-desktop	DocScrutinizer, hi I didn't understand the errata either, does it fix the issues like when you switch from arm to thumb and it illegal instructions because of that?	23:24
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DocScrutinizer51	it seems the branch prediction queue isn't getting properly cleaned in some cases when using a opcode (bx?) that is switching instruction set	23:26
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GNUtoo-desktop	ok I understand that(branch prediction)	23:27
GNUtoo-desktop	it's fixed in 3.4?	23:27
GNUtoo-desktop	because we have firefox that illegal instructions on SHR	23:27
GNUtoo-desktop	and it's related to arm->thumb interworking switch	23:28
DocScrutinizer51	it's fixed in more recent chips	23:28
GNUtoo-desktop	ok	23:28
GNUtoo-desktop	is it fixed in the gta04 chip?	23:28
DocScrutinizer51	not on n900 omap soc though	23:28
DocScrutinizer51	dunno, probably	23:28
GNUtoo-desktop	ok	23:29
GNUtoo-desktop	thanks	23:29
DocScrutinizer51	check revision	23:29
DocScrutinizer51	ask nikolaus	23:29
DocScrutinizer51	r0p1 ?	23:33
DocScrutinizer51	til r2pq ?	23:33
DocScrutinizer51	it's in one of the links freemangordon posted	23:34
Estel_	ping Hurrian	23:34
DocScrutinizer51	Estel_: there are lesser-effort approaches to safe 15, 20 Mb of memory	23:35
Estel_	like?	23:35
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, ^^^	23:38
DocScrutinizer51	forex look into all the preloaded stuff. Look at that 25MB file containing ALL translations	23:39
Estel_	it's nice, we can mix it up with thumb2 and get 30-40 Mb of memory :)	23:39
Estel_	but it's data, not code, yep?	23:40
DocScrutinizer51	htop is your ftiend, and your common sense your shrpest weapon	23:40
Estel_	unused translation must be amongst few things that get swapped out	23:40
Estel_	common sense tells me that it's not mutualy exclusive with thumb2	23:40
Estel_	btw, question	23:40
DocScrutinizer51	WUT? you won't gain 20	23:41
DocScrutinizer51	ooh, all together	23:41
Estel_	swapon -a in rcS-late, it enables swap	23:41
Estel_	how does it know where it is?	23:41
Estel_	searches automatialy emmc?	23:41
Estel_	and enable first found swap?	23:41
DocScrutinizer51	look at autogenerated fstab	23:42
Estel_	i.e. checks all mmcblk0p* and enable first found swap, or have it hardcoded?	23:42
Estel_	I see	23:42
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Estel_	emr, so my guess that if user have swap on /dev/mmcblk0p758, swapon -a will also enable it	23:43
Estel_	?	23:43
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Estel_	no requiment for it to be on /dev/mmcblk0p3?	23:43
jacekowski	well kinda	23:44
jacekowski	it would have to be in fstab	23:44
jacekowski	and fstab is regenerated quite often	23:44
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Estel_	jacekowski, for my use case it's invoked from rcS-late, so it's during boot	23:54
Estel_	no chances for missing fstab generation ;)	23:54
Estel_	DocScrutinizer, dumbie question again... while working with sed, how to distinguish "/" being part of line to be parsed, from "/" being part of sed command?	23:57
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Estel_	i.e. sed -i "s/home/user/newhome/newuser/"	23:58
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DocScrutinizer51	use arbitrary other delimiyer	23:58
Estel_	use what?!	23:58
DocScrutinizer51	like @	23:58
Estel_	erm, any examples? I fail to get it	23:59
DocScrutinizer51	s@foo/bar@fsck@	23:59
Estel_	oh	23:59
Estel_	and sed is bright enough to know what is delimiyer and what not	23:59
Estel_	well, You've made it so simple :)	23:59
DocScrutinizer51	yep	23:59
Estel_	thanks a lot...	23:59

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