| timelyx | milhouse: silly thought | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| timelyx | if the background of the page or cell isn't white, what happens? | 00:00 |
| sp3000 | you might be able to allow it to finish by disabling lifeguard reset | 00:00 |
| milhouse | dunno, let me try | 00:00 |
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| smokie | sp3000, the CPU usage grows. MEM is always 0.0 | 00:01 |
| milhouse | it displays the background colour where it should display the image | 00:01 |
| milhouse | so when i changed the bgcolor to red, it displayed red in between the left and right gifs | 00:02 |
| smokie | why is /dev/mtdbloc4 mounted as /mnt/initfs and "/" ? | 00:02 |
| timelyx | ok, can you upload a testcase w/ an extra row that shows that? | 00:02 |
| timelyx | btw, see the url field :) | 00:02 |
| milhouse | ok | 00:02 |
| timelyx | sp3000: 1792... | 00:03 |
| timelyx | where can i dump this? | 00:04 |
| sp3000 | I can't think of anything better than syssw/gen | 00:07 |
| timelyx | how about 1919? | 00:10 |
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| sp3000 | same | 00:10 |
| * timelyx sighs | 00:11 | |
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| timelyx | "Select component ..." "Delete Component ..." what's wrong with this picture? | 00:11 |
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| sp3000 | oh, darn, weba_me_copy_img_location | 00:14 |
| * sp3000 forgets if that's filed somewhere | 00:15 | |
| timelyx | sp3000: | 00:16 |
| timelyx | http://mxr-test.landfill.bugzilla.org/bugzilla/search?string=component&find=tmpl&filter=title.*%28elect%7Celete%29 | 00:16 |
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| milhouse | bug 1955 updated with additional screenshots/test case | 00:20 |
| _Monkey | Bug 1955 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1955 | 00:20 |
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| sp3000 | timelyx: Translations :: Svenska (Servige) s/Servige/Sverige/ | 00:30 |
| sp3000 | (name and desc) | 00:30 |
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| timelyx | oops. on it | 00:30 |
| timelyx | check agian? | 00:31 |
| sp3000 | looks ok | 00:32 |
| sp3000 | do you happen to remember if the missing string in the image context menu is filed somewheres or shall I file a todo note on bugs.maemo so I'll check it monday? :) | 00:32 |
| timelyx | don't recall it | 00:32 |
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| milhouse | timeless: yes, i saw you changed the url field, that's quite neat - such a shame it doesn't work in IE | 00:41 |
| smokie | sp3000, i turned off the lifeguard (i can see some text on the bootlogo) , but the n770 restarts again. :-( | 00:42 |
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| * timelyx sighs | 00:53 | |
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| timelyx | milhouse: yeah well, it works on microb and firefox. i don't care about anything else generally | 00:54 |
| milhouse | i know - i was thinking it might be useful for other things | 00:54 |
| timelyx | milhouse: note that typing the original url on my device is painful, so i use tinyurls | 00:54 |
| timelyx | the reason to convert a random ip to a bugzilla link is that the bugzilla link will last forever | 00:54 |
| milhouse | true... but i don't intend giving up this ip address for a long time :) | 00:55 |
| timelyx | oh sure | 00:55 |
| timelyx | i didn't intend to give up my domain names | 00:55 |
| timelyx | i still almost did one or two days ago | 00:55 |
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| milhouse | i don't mind, that's why i attached the archives just in case | 00:55 |
| timelyx | archives are appreciated and encouraged :) | 00:56 |
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| milhouse | so going anywhere nice for your vacation? | 00:56 |
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| timelyx | vienna, bologna, milano, munich, frankfurt, bern(?), strausborg, paris | 00:57 |
| timelyx | vienna and paris have plane tickets, paris has a place to stay, all points between are tentative | 00:57 |
| milhouse | nice :) you'll need a month for all of those places! | 00:58 |
| timelyx | that's the general idea :) | 00:58 |
| timelyx | european vacation length is 4 weeks | 00:58 |
| timelyx | unlike american which is 2 for starters, and 3 eventually | 00:58 |
| pupnik_ | You meeting up with anyone in frankfurt? | 00:58 |
| timelyx | know anyone there? | 00:59 |
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| pupnik_ | i'm in the neighborhood :) | 00:59 |
| timelyx | i know two people in vienna and hope to meet them | 00:59 |
| milhouse | in the uk it varies... few firms will let you take a full month off even though you typically get 20+ days a year minimum | 00:59 |
| timelyx | well, ... hrm, calendar,... | 00:59 |
| pupnik_ | I don't know anything interesting in frankfurt per-se - expensive town | 01:00 |
| milhouse | frankfurt - not very nice so i've heard (from expats who live[d] there) | 01:01 |
| milhouse | a bit industrial | 01:01 |
| timelyx | frankfurt looks like it's ~sep 25-27 | 01:01 |
| timelyx | i am likely to drop *something* | 01:02 |
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| timelyx | as balogna will have to be long (midweek + weekend). generally i'm trying to make cities one or the other | 01:02 |
| milhouse | no london? | 01:03 |
| timelyx | sorry, i did london in spring(?) | 01:03 |
| timelyx | it was before we announced microb | 01:03 |
| milhouse | edinburgh? though you'll have just missed the fringe | 01:03 |
| timelyx | london, cambridge, oxford, bath, windsor, brighton | 01:04 |
| milhouse | i hope you like rugby, the world cup is taking place in france (several games in paris) during september | 01:05 |
| timelyx | i expect to return to the british isles (to do the isles...) some other year | 01:05 |
| milhouse | http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/fixtures/poolstage.html | 01:05 |
| timelyx | i'll be in france the first week of oct :) | 01:06 |
| timelyx | pupnik_: /msg me your contact info? (esp cell) | 01:06 |
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| milhouse | ah, knock out stages by then - the only paris game is 19 Oct | 01:07 |
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| milhouse | although saint-denis is only a short distance north of paris | 01:09 |
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| timelyx | http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800/ | 01:19 |
| timelyx | What Nokia Could Steal from Apple Today | 01:19 |
| timelyx | The N800's "Hildon" UI is shown at left, ... | 01:19 |
| timelyx | am i disoriented or is the author confused? | 01:19 |
| * timelyx is using noscript | 01:19 | |
| milhouse | confused I think :) | 01:20 |
| timelyx | he's actually confused on a number of points | 01:22 |
| timelyx | although they're details | 01:22 |
| timelyx | he claims you can't have more than one app on the screen | 01:23 |
| timelyx | you can have about 3 | 01:23 |
| timelyx | TN, <whatever>, keyboard | 01:23 |
| milhouse | pedant :) | 01:24 |
| timelyx | and proud of it :) | 01:25 |
| kikka | good night | 01:25 |
| timelyx | wait, he's complaining that the n800 isn't stable because opera only crashed twice? | 01:25 |
| timelyx | silly customer | 01:25 |
| milhouse | g'night... and time i was off too | 01:25 |
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| milhouse | opera? what's that? | 01:25 |
| timelyx | it's only 130am | 01:25 |
| timelyx | milhouse: a stable application | 01:26 |
| milhouse | my dinner just arrived | 01:26 |
| * timelyx is used to things crashing dozens of time | 01:26 | |
| timelyx | s | 01:26 |
| milhouse | not on internet tablets! | 01:26 |
| milhouse | i've had fewer crashes with micro-b than opera | 01:26 |
| milhouse | (well done) | 01:26 |
| timelyx | btw, to some extent, i would like cores /media/mmc1/core-dumps/ from microb | 01:27 |
| milhouse | so if you create that directory, it will automagically create a core dump? | 01:27 |
| timelyx | although if it's flash related, we probably don't care. the next flash release w/ the next microb should be less crashy | 01:27 |
| timelyx | yes | 01:27 |
| milhouse | does it overwrite an existing core or create a unique name? | 01:28 |
| timelyx | there's a proc thing that controls it | 01:28 |
| timelyx | it uses pids and process names | 01:28 |
| timelyx | so you should run out of space before it overwrites | 01:28 |
| milhouse | i'll create that directory... despite my above comment, in the last few days i've had a few errors starting micro-b... start it a second time and it works no problem | 01:28 |
| timelyx | and believe me, you will run out of space :) | 01:28 |
| milhouse | should take a while... i've got 3GB of space :) | 01:29 |
| timelyx | i had 512 for my 770, that didn't work so i upgraded to 1gb, that didn't work | 01:30 |
| timelyx | and then we got n800s, so i eventually ordered 2gb cards | 01:30 |
| milhouse | for a single core? | 01:30 |
| timelyx | i've had cores that were ~400mb from mahjong :) | 01:30 |
| milhouse | flippin heck | 01:30 |
| milhouse | :) | 01:30 |
| timelyx | :) | 01:30 |
| milhouse | well 3GB should be enough to squeeze in a couple of cores! | 01:31 |
| timelyx | but yeah, normally a core should be <100mb, so you should get a bunch before you run out | 01:31 |
| timelyx | of course, if you have a symlink in ~/MyDocs to say / | 01:31 |
| timelyx | and you have the media crawler daemon | 01:31 |
| timelyx | then well,.... it'll just dump cores until your card is full :) | 01:31 |
| milhouse | nice :) | 01:32 |
| timelyx | load: /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern in your browser | 01:32 |
| timelyx | hrm | 01:32 |
| timelyx | interesting | 01:32 |
| timelyx | mine doesn't say what i expected | 01:32 |
| timelyx | what's yours say? | 01:32 |
| timelyx | sp3000: how do i control where cores go? | 01:32 |
| sp3000 | timelyx: /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern | 01:33 |
| * sp3000 reads up | 01:34 | |
| milhouse | mine says: /media/mmc1/core-dumps/%e-%s-%p-2007.26-8_PR.core | 01:34 |
| timelyx | wow | 01:34 |
| timelyx | so they've changed it occasionally | 01:34 |
| timelyx | you can read google for core_pattern to understand what it means | 01:34 |
| timelyx | but in short, the directory i gave is right :) | 01:34 |
| milhouse | yes, i've created it so next time micro-b refuses to start i'll send you a core - how do you like to receive them? | 01:35 |
| milhouse | too big for a bug report | 01:35 |
| timelyx | detailed bugs w/ urls to cores will do | 01:35 |
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| timelyx | i don't want cores while i'm on vacation :) | 01:35 |
| milhouse | hmm... not sure how much space i have on my web host | 01:36 |
| timelyx | feel free to bz2 them | 01:36 |
| timelyx | try docs.google for hosting :) | 01:36 |
| milhouse | yeah, i probably have enough space for half a dozen assuming they compress nicely | 01:36 |
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| milhouse | right... my dinner is getting cold... really have to go... night all :) | 01:37 |
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| ekim|irc | Does anyone here work on the maemo site ? | 01:45 |
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| sp3000 | timelyx: wow | 02:28 |
| sp3000 | I can get three different results from vkb upstrokes | 02:28 |
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| sp3000 | in cases where there's no stylus jumping effects | 02:28 |
| sp3000 | I can get a) nothing b) uppercase c) lowercase repeat (?!) | 02:29 |
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| sp3000 | the funny thing is, lowercase repeat is triggered by tap and hold on a vkey, and dragging off the key stops the repeat | 02:30 |
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| sp3000 | but a fast upstroke can lead to lowercase repeat starting after the drag, and not stoppable by dragging about more | 02:31 |
| sp3000 | even if I intersect the active vkey | 02:31 |
| timelyx | nice | 02:31 |
| pupnik | timelyx: did you get my PMs? | 02:31 |
| timelyx | only the first two | 02:32 |
| timelyx | oh right | 02:32 |
| pupnik | ok - you never answered | 02:32 |
| timelyx | i can't msg back | 02:32 |
| timelyx | sorry | 02:32 |
| pupnik | np | 02:32 |
| timelyx | you have to register to message back | 02:32 |
| timelyx | and i'm not registered | 02:32 |
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| pupnik | wb unique311 | 02:33 |
| unique311 | hello | 02:33 |
| unique311 | http://forum.gizmoproject.com/viewtopic.php?t=7098&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=c9ce10b400d7c32129830109aa04849e | 02:33 |
| unique311 | old news? | 02:33 |
| timelyx | but my client doesn't send me the error to the msg window, it sends it to the server window | 02:33 |
| timelyx | which i don't see | 02:33 |
| pupnik | yeah mine too - happens to me also | 02:33 |
| unique311 | How to post on maemo.org news | 02:33 |
| timelyx | anyway, "yes, i rang" because calling is free | 02:33 |
| GS | someone know how to umount mmc1 card? tellme device busy and not app bussy i think | 02:34 |
| pupnik | unique311: maybe you should wait for a public release? | 02:35 |
| unique311 | anyone? | 02:35 |
| unique311 | well its on ITT.. | 02:35 |
| pupnik | it could be put on the WIP page | 02:36 |
| unique311 | well someone will see it on ITT, and post it on maemo.org | 02:38 |
| GS | ok virtual memory its cause.. ;) | 02:38 |
| GS | hehe | 02:38 |
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| unique311 | will this push skype to incoperate the video feature in skype for the N899 | 02:43 |
| unique311 | 800* | 02:43 |
| unique311 | hope so, sound on gizmo to me is much better than skype on the N800 | 02:44 |
| pupnik | how loud can you turn up the volume using gizmo, unique311 ? | 02:46 |
| sp3000 | timelyx: I bet part of the problem is many people like to do gestures like clicks and drags "harder" when they're not working | 02:46 |
| unique311 | the vlume on my N800 is always at max | 02:46 |
| unique311 | no reason to turn it down never use it with a headphone. | 02:47 |
| sp3000 | which in the case of screwed up mouse clicks that end up as short drags in the hands of ...er, normal people or something... just makes it less likely to work | 02:47 |
| sp3000 | and in the case of vkb upstrokes also makes it less likely to work | 02:47 |
| sp3000 | not that it should or anything ;) | 02:50 |
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| Blacksitox | buenas tardes | 02:50 |
| |tbb| | any way to use the skype sms feature on n800? | 02:51 |
| unique311 | |tbb|, when you figure out how to go about doing so, let me know. | 02:55 |
| unique311 | only way I can think of is probably via web browser | 02:56 |
| |tbb| | to bad | 02:57 |
| Tu13es | I use AIM for texting peopel | 02:58 |
| Tu13es | people | 02:58 |
| _Monkey | people are packing for guadec etc | 02:58 |
| Tu13es | I don't see why Skype charges normal SMS rates when you can do it free from plenty of places | 02:58 |
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| GS | one question | 03:02 |
| GS | i have a partition table in mmc card | 03:02 |
| GS | and i would like install os2007he there | 03:02 |
| GS | how i can install on card without eraser flash memory and os2006? | 03:03 |
| timelyx | Tu13es: why question a business that makes money? | 03:03 |
| |tbb| | Tu13es: tell me a good one | 03:03 |
| sp3000 | _Monkey: forget people | 03:04 |
| _Monkey | sp3000: I forgot people | 03:04 |
| sp3000 | _Monkey: people is <reply> | 03:04 |
| _Monkey | OK, sp3000. | 03:04 |
| sp3000 | makeworkbot | 03:04 |
| GS | with ./flasher-2.0 -F SU-18_2007HACKER_2.2006.47-17_PR_F5_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R --enable-rd-mode erase my flash memory, i would like install os2007 in mmc someideas? | 03:06 |
| GS | i have installed bootmenu and partition table with Linux_83 type | 03:06 |
| GS | i have use nokia propietary software on window$? | 03:07 |
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| |tbb| | timelyx: ill waiting ;) | 03:12 |
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| timelyx | great, web browser crashed trying to open themes | 03:23 |
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| pupnik | unique311: then gizmo must be using feedback-cancellation | 03:25 |
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| timelyx | sp3000? | 03:26 |
| timelyx | try using /usr/share/themes/default and clicking "images" | 03:27 |
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| sp3000 | wfm | 03:28 |
| sp3000 | assuming the alternative is to crash | 03:28 |
| timelyx | k | 03:29 |
| timelyx | which browser? | 03:29 |
| sp3000 | microb | 03:30 |
| _Monkey | microb is the nokia sponsored gtk2-cairo hack of gecko for use by /usr/bin/browser via eal on n800 (4.2007) | 03:30 |
| sp3000 | thanks for the elaboration _Monkey | 03:30 |
| timelyx | i just hung images | 03:31 |
| timelyx | try this: | 03:31 |
| timelyx | xterm | 03:31 |
| timelyx | cd | 03:31 |
| timelyx | cd M<tab | 03:31 |
| timelyx | ln -s / rt | 03:31 |
| timelyx | exit | 03:31 |
| timelyx | images | 03:31 |
| markg | hi people, when booting my n800, I am getting this "tcm825xsensor_init(): Failed to detect TCM825x sensor chip" | 03:31 |
| markg | is my device stuffed? | 03:31 |
| timelyx | file>open (browse to desktop/rt/usr/share/themes/theme1/images) | 03:31 |
| timelyx | open the first image, and press next (hardware?) 56+ times | 03:32 |
| sp3000 | I got to 88 | 03:35 |
| timelyx | and then? | 03:35 |
| _Monkey | then is not free software, it is not GNU/linux embedded, i refuse to use a phone that has not GNU/linux | 03:35 |
| timelyx | _Monkey forget then | 03:35 |
| _Monkey | timelyx: I forgot then | 03:35 |
| timelyx | _Monkey then is <reply> | 03:35 |
| _Monkey | OK, timelyx. | 03:35 |
| * timelyx finally gets Images - ... is not responding. Close application? | 03:36 | |
| sp3000 | hmm, why is that image of two or five sideways | 03:37 |
| * sp3000 doesn't see such an image in the dir by the given prefix | 03:37 | |
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| sp3000 | $ fgrep image /proc/[0-9]*/cmdline | wc -l | 03:39 |
| sp3000 | 14 | 03:39 |
| sp3000 | that's ...interesting | 03:39 |
| timelyx | yes, my top listed a great deal of "processes" of the same size | 03:41 |
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| sp3000 | ah, initial image -> 4, filepicker -> 12 | 03:45 |
| * sp3000 wasn't expecting that many | 03:45 | |
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| unique311 | anyone using an n800 with gizmo installed | 04:30 |
| unique311 | ? | 04:30 |
| unique311 | i want to test out the camera.. | 04:30 |
| unique311 | works on my end.. | 04:30 |
| unique311 | not sure about the beta, might have sound issues | 04:31 |
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| unique311 | pupnik, did you add smw to the garage? | 06:53 |
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| Blacksitox | bye | 07:32 |
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| straind` | Does anyone know how to switch from the fingerboard to the keyboard in VNC? | 08:23 |
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| timelyx | err | 08:43 |
| timelyx | depending on what you actually mean | 08:43 |
| timelyx | the rumor implies you'd need to stick a maemo gtk immodule in the host system | 08:44 |
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| timelyx | straind`: oh, from finger to virtual? shouldn't it be sufficient to minimize the finger keyboard and single tap an input field? | 10:30 |
| straind` | It doesn't seem to work in VNC. | 10:31 |
| timelyx | you're vncing to your device? | 10:32 |
| straind` | from | 10:32 |
| timelyx | from i.e. you're running vnc client on your device? | 10:33 |
| straind` | Yeah. VNC viewer connecting to VNC server on my desktop. | 10:34 |
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| timelyx | so, getting those keyboards to work requires the application be able to explain widgets well enough to a gtk im | 10:34 |
| straind` | I get the virtual for password entry, but once connected, it's finger. | 10:35 |
| straind` | im? | 10:35 |
| timelyx | the simplest test of this is trying to run vnc on your desktop to a second workstation and trying to use japanese input methods [im] on your client desktop | 10:35 |
| timelyx | if you can't make that work, then expecting this to work is unreasonable | 10:35 |
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| straind` | I need sleep. That looks like english, but I don't understand it. :) | 10:36 |
| timelyx | some languages are so complicated you can't really have a keyboard w/ just ~100 keys to input the characters | 10:40 |
| timelyx | so they generally require software and some sort of window for dealing w/ input | 10:40 |
| timelyx | this begat Input Method Editors [IMEs] | 10:41 |
| straind` | It's weird. I can get the finger up with the select button, and close it with the same. When I try to get the keyboard up by tapping the icon of the paper and pencil, nothing happens until I tap it again and get the fingerboard again. | 10:41 |
| timelyx | some devices are so frustratingly small, that they too needed some sort of window for dealing w/ input, this resulted in using the same system of IMEs on small devices | 10:42 |
| timelyx | but typically in order to support an IME you need to either use widgets predesigned for the IME (e.g. Gtk widgets will sorta automatically work w/ gtk-im-modules) | 10:43 |
| timelyx | or you need to write your own glue to connect to them | 10:43 |
| timelyx | opera, mozilla, and vnc would fall into that latter catgeory | 10:43 |
| timelyx | s/geo/ego/ | 10:43 |
| infobot | timelyx meant: opera, mozilla, and vnc would fall into that latter category | 10:43 |
| timelyx | since they all draw their own "widgets" to the extent that they even understand what a widget is | 10:43 |
| timelyx | in the case of vnc, it would basically have to pretend to be an IM in order to ask the apps it's rendering enough questions to make a local IM happy | 10:44 |
| straind` | Ok. So it's VNC on the 770s fault for not requesting the right thing, but it could be fixed by someone who understands it more than I do right now. :) | 10:46 |
| timelyx | that's my presumption, yes | 10:46 |
| timelyx | and the way to test it is to use japanese w/ desktop boxes | 10:46 |
| timelyx | if japanese "works correctly", then the problem could be maemo's fault instead | 10:46 |
| timelyx | could. IMEs are pains | 10:46 |
| timelyx | i think they make general unicode handling seem like a piece of cake | 10:47 |
| straind` | Ok. I'm hoping I won't have to deal with that too soon. :) | 10:47 |
| straind` | While I've got you, how hard is it to modify a virtual keyboard? | 10:47 |
| timelyx | please be more specific | 10:48 |
| straind` | I use the US & UK keyboards. | 10:49 |
| timelyx | there are keyboard layouts, i think that someone reverse engineered enough to get hebrew working | 10:49 |
| timelyx | there's actually a public doc explaining how to write your own layout | 10:49 |
| timelyx | and there's a package w/ the program to "compile" layouts | 10:49 |
| straind` | Ok. I'll look for it when my eyes aren't closed. :) | 10:49 |
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| timelyx | woohoo | 11:11 |
| * timelyx goes off to kill 3 products | 11:11 | |
| * timelyx frowns | 11:13 | |
| timelyx | we have an Other for bugs about maemopad? | 11:13 |
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| lle2 | timelyx: couldn't you maybe sneak in an inconspicuous product "3rd party" with skype and flash as components? | 11:18 |
| timelyx | lle2: skype is in communications | 11:18 |
| timelyx | because it was already in the bug db before i started | 11:19 |
| timelyx | so it moved to communications when i moved things | 11:19 |
| timelyx | before i was told not to have it | 11:19 |
| lle2 | really? I couldn't see it at the time | 11:19 |
| timelyx | it's there | 11:19 |
| timelyx | i put ~5 bugs there recently | 11:19 |
| lle2 | alright, no worries then | 11:19 |
| timelyx | flash is in browser because i own browser | 11:19 |
| lle2 | :) | 11:19 |
| timelyx | and i need a place to say "not my fault" | 11:19 |
| lle2 | yup | 11:20 |
| timelyx | the only thing is that browser has nokians, so we can touch bugs | 11:20 |
| timelyx | it's unclear how places that don't have nokians will deal with bugs given standard contract procedure | 11:20 |
| timelyx | but at least flash has promised to look periodically | 11:20 |
| lle2 | maybe jaaksi will handle them | 11:20 |
| timelyx | who? | 11:20 |
| timelyx | ok. | 11:21 |
| lle2 | dr. ari j. our benevolent leader ;) | 11:21 |
| timelyx | does he have a bugs.maemo.org account? | 11:21 |
| lle2 | no idea, but he should | 11:21 |
| timelyx | it'd be amusing to make him watch misdirected:nokia ;) | 11:21 |
| lle2 | :D | 11:21 |
| timelyx | is a bug about mameopad (sdk docs) something that should go in development platform, documentation, or website:documentation?. the bug includes a fix for a compile error | 11:22 |
| * timelyx needs to see about killing website:documentation | 11:22 | |
| timelyx | he has an account | 11:23 |
| timelyx | i'm not quite sure i feel like sending an email saying "dear benevolent leader, i've impersonated you to make you watch misdirected nokia related bugs" | 11:24 |
| lle2 | pre-texted, that's more mgmt language | 11:25 |
| timelyx | what i could do, i suppose, is write a blog entry with suggestions for what various people should watch and detailed steps | 11:25 |
| timelyx | pre-texted? | 11:25 |
| lle2 | you've not followed the hp saga? | 11:25 |
| timelyx | i followed it, but i didn't expect someone to mention it | 11:25 |
| timelyx | so what would that mean? | 11:26 |
| lle2 | pre-texting is supposedly when somebody (il)legitimately pretends to be someone else to gain something | 11:26 |
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| timelyx | actually | 11:26 |
| timelyx | there's a simple way to do that | 11:26 |
| timelyx | i could send him an html message w/ an image which would subscribe him to the mail as long as he's already logged into bugzilla :) | 11:26 |
| lle2 | I guess it was first used to describe the process of acquiring somebody else's phone records from the phone companies | 11:27 |
| * timelyx nods | 11:27 | |
| timelyx | in this case, one of the nokia qas sent me an email @ my nokia address asking me if i had impersonated them and why | 11:27 |
| timelyx | i said, yes. but i was fairly shocked that they recognized it was me | 11:27 |
| timelyx | since afaik my real name and timeless aren't very connected in nokia circles | 11:28 |
| lle2 | heh | 11:28 |
| timelyx | there's a great quote in mozilla.org circles | 11:28 |
| timelyx | is a bug about mameopad | 11:29 |
| timelyx | eep | 11:29 |
| timelyx | http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/1388 | 11:29 |
| timelyx | ooh, i got a kudo, wow | 11:31 |
| `0660 | so what's with this new nick? are you trying to be anonymous? :) | 11:31 |
| timelyx | http://www.ohloh.net/accounts/6653/positions/3393 | 11:31 |
| timelyx | _Monkey me? | 11:31 |
| _Monkey | hmmm... timelyx is your mac, it has scrollback | 11:31 |
| timelyx | _Monkey timele61i? | 11:31 |
| _Monkey | somebody said timele61i was well, your phone or timeless using a nokia e61i (blueberry) | 11:31 |
| timelyx | no, i just have a number of accounts w/ various properties | 11:31 |
| timelyx | timeless is my identity, the others are variations based on connectivity | 11:31 |
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| `0660 | i didn't know you could do irc with Lyx :P | 11:32 |
| `0660 | i wasn't even able to do my thesis with it | 11:33 |
| `0660 | i had to use latex | 11:33 |
| `0660 | so what's your nick when using n800? :) | 11:36 |
| timelyx | typically timeless here | 11:39 |
| timelyx | from my n800 i tend to use ssh/screen/epic | 11:39 |
| timelyx | on moznet it's timeless/timely depending on the channel | 11:40 |
| timelyx | (two screen sessions) | 11:40 |
| `0660 | pretty confusing :) | 11:40 |
| timelyx | i don't use nick coloring, always address timeless, i'll respond if i'm alert | 11:40 |
| timelyx | or when i read scrollback | 11:40 |
| timelyx | i'll respond to the others too, since i'm reading everything | 11:41 |
| c0ffee | do you also have a life? :) | 11:41 |
| timelyx | i have a summer vacation starting next week, does that count? | 11:41 |
| c0ffee | depends on what you do there | 11:42 |
| c0ffee | if you'll spend it hanging on irc reading backlogs, no | 11:42 |
| timelyx | travel/pray | 11:42 |
| `0660 | i think 5 irc nicks should count as one life :) | 11:43 |
| timelyx | i expect to spend less than half my days w/ access to anything electronic | 11:43 |
| timelyx | that includes things like lights | 11:43 |
| c0ffee | where to you travel to? | 11:43 |
| timelyx | we'll see how close i get to that | 11:43 |
| timelyx | vienna, bologna, milano, munich, frankfurt, bern, strausborg, paris | 11:44 |
| timelyx | only the first and last are guaranteed | 11:44 |
| timelyx | i'm currently considering swapping bologna, milano for milano, tonio, or milano, bologna | 11:44 |
| c0ffee | going along some pilgrims way? | 11:44 |
| timelyx | i might drop bern or trade it for zurich | 11:44 |
| timelyx | not specifically, it's sorta a "hit classic central europe" | 11:45 |
| c0ffee | i live halfway between zurich and strasbourg | 11:46 |
| timelyx | i have plans to hit the Mediterranean and British Isles in subsequent years (along w/ a couple of others) | 11:46 |
| timelyx | oh yeah, Nordic countries is one of the other trips :) | 11:46 |
| c0ffee | my next trip is to tokyo | 11:46 |
| timelyx | nice | 11:46 |
| c0ffee | checking whether the sites from mega tokyo actually exist | 11:47 |
| timelyx | i have an invite but no allotment | 11:47 |
| timelyx | heh | 11:47 |
| * timelyx tries to figure out what to do w/ a bug asking for bluetooth printing | 11:48 | |
| timelyx | connectivity:bluetooth, desktop:user interface, misdirected:nokia | 11:48 |
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| theril | Hmm.. where have the sardine repositories gone? | 11:51 |
| timelyx | ? | 11:52 |
| theril | http://repository.maemo.org/sardine/ says "Sardine has moved to the Maemo Garage. If your browser doesn't automatically redirect there click here" | 11:55 |
| theril | And the getting started document from that page redirects to wiki document, that gives the http://repository.maemo.org/sardine/ -repository | 11:55 |
| timelyx | http://sardine.garage.maemo.org/ | 11:56 |
| * timelyx sighs | 11:57 | |
| timelyx | finns are strange | 11:57 |
| theril | That's the page that the old repository redirects to | 11:57 |
| timelyx | only a finn would think to call sardine's fresh or tasty | 11:57 |
| pupnik | hahahaha | 11:57 |
| timelyx | now, that's not to say i have anything personally against sardines, i just won't eat them :) | 11:58 |
| pupnik | they're ok imo | 11:58 |
| pupnik | Unfortunately we are poisoning the oceans - mercury levels etc | 11:59 |
| pupnik | but offtopic.. | 11:59 |
| timelyx | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/ | 11:59 |
| timelyx | sardine is walkable | 11:59 |
| * timelyx loves seeing ip addresses in files: http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/sardine-experimental.sources.list | 12:01 | |
| theril | timelyx: They are internals | 12:02 |
| timelyx | theril: that's fairly stupid for a public project, no? | 12:03 |
| theril | timelyx: Yep | 12:04 |
| timelyx | but what makes you say they're internal? | 12:05 |
| theril | Because 192.x are intranet IPs | 12:05 |
| lle2 | timelyx: why do you think sardine was coined by a finn? | 12:06 |
| timelyx | no | 12:06 |
| timelyx | http://www.geocities.com/technofundo/tech/misc/abcofip.html | 12:06 |
| timelyx | There are 3 IP network addresses reserved for private networks. | 12:06 |
| timelyx | * 10.0.0.0 to 10.255.255.255 | 12:06 |
| timelyx | * 172.16.0.0 to 172.31.255.255 | 12:06 |
| timelyx | * 192.168.0.0 to 192.168.255.255 | 12:06 |
| lle2 | timelyx: isn't that one of carlos' projects? | 12:06 |
| timelyx | lle2: maybe, perhaps i'm wrong. it just seems like a finnish choice. perhaps i should apologize :| | 12:07 |
| theril | Then I'm glad to be wrong :) | 12:07 |
| theril | But the IP doesn't answer anyway | 12:08 |
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| theril | Hmm.. lets try chinook then | 12:09 |
| theril | Does anybody have chinook's repository's URL at hand? | 12:09 |
| lle2 | timelyx: 192. addresses can still be internal to nokia | 12:09 |
| timelyx | lle2: to the extent that they're a specifically allocated netblock, sure | 12:10 |
| timelyx | but not for the standard "oh, it's 192.168.*" | 12:10 |
| lle2 | yes | 12:10 |
| timelyx | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/sardine-experimental_closed.sources.list | 12:10 |
| timelyx | now that's a funny list | 12:10 |
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| theril | Argh, developing outside Nokia is pain | 12:11 |
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| timelyx | i hope you don't think developing inside nokia is cake | 12:12 |
| theril | Well I didn't have to hunt down stuff like this | 12:12 |
| * timelyx chuckles | 12:12 | |
| timelyx | sure you do | 12:12 |
| timelyx | or at least, i do | 12:12 |
| timelyx | instead of 3 inconsistent wikis | 12:13 |
| timelyx | you have 50 you don't know about | 12:13 |
| timelyx | and hundreds of people you don't know well enough to know if they know what you need to know | 12:13 |
| theril | I know, but I'm now talking about getting the sources | 12:13 |
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| timelyx | sure | 12:13 |
| timelyx | same problem | 12:14 |
| timelyx | getting sources involves figuring out who has sources and how to retrieve them | 12:14 |
| timelyx | to /some/ extent, my computer at work solves that problem | 12:14 |
| timelyx | but only when i found out, which can be months late | 12:14 |
| theril | Wasn't atleast for me, I just put the integration repository to sources.list and pulled all the fresh stuff | 12:14 |
| timelyx | and since it isn't cron'd yet, my server will be basically 4 weeks stale for a heavy period | 12:15 |
| * timelyx shrugs | 12:15 | |
| timelyx | working off integration repositories is /sometimes/ useful, and usually frustrating | 12:15 |
| timelyx | they keep changing their structure | 12:16 |
| timelyx | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/Y.txt | 12:16 |
| timelyx | can someone please explain that file? | 12:17 |
| theril | I had no problems | 12:17 |
| theril | A workaround for lack of /bin/yes? | 12:17 |
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| * timelyx considers enrolling in sardine to fix a typo in http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/README.rootstraps#4 | 12:18 | |
| timelyx | lle2: think anyone would mind? | 12:19 |
| lle2 | timelyx: mind what? | 12:20 |
| timelyx | if i fixed the spelling of "built" by forcibly adding myself to svn access and committing the fix | 12:21 |
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| theril | lle2: BTW, is it possible in Sb2 to have the .sbconfig file somewhere else than in the "root" directory? | 12:21 |
| lle2 | that's counter-revolutionary thinking | 12:21 |
| theril | I'm thinking of using a mount of N800 root as Sb2 root fs | 12:21 |
| lle2 | theril: sure it would be possible, what would be a good place? | 12:21 |
| timelyx | what's a "root" directory in this case? | 12:22 |
| timelyx | the root of the scratchbox? | 12:22 |
| lle2 | the root of the buildroot | 12:22 |
| lle2 | as in $HOME/buildroot/.sb2config | 12:22 |
| theril | lle2: Well perhaps home directory or someplace writable by 'user' (instead of root) | 12:22 |
| timelyx | does sb2config let me have more than one scratchbox? | 12:23 |
| lle2 | timelyx: yes | 12:23 |
| theril | I really don't want to have sb2 running with root access on my device ;) | 12:23 |
| lle2 | timelyx: as many as you like | 12:23 |
| * timelyx is confused | 12:23 | |
| timelyx | theril: what am i missing? | 12:23 |
| timelyx | where does root come in? | 12:23 |
| theril | timelyx: It would use a remotedly mounted FS of the N800 | 12:24 |
| theril | And if I want to write the config to root of the N800, it would have to be mounted as root | 12:24 |
| timelyx | oh | 12:25 |
| timelyx | so you're using sb2 for sbrsh transparency | 12:25 |
| theril | And then sb2 magic would probably fuck up the system totally :P | 12:25 |
| timelyx | or trying to | 12:25 |
| theril | timelyx: Not exactly | 12:25 |
| * pupnik ponders | 12:25 | |
| lle2 | theril: that's interesting way of setting it up | 12:25 |
| * timelyx doesn't exactly get it | 12:25 | |
| lle2 | might be useful | 12:25 |
| theril | In fact I'm thinking of using raemo to mount and run stuff with sb2 | 12:25 |
| timelyx | Raemo? | 12:25 |
| `0660 | Raimo | 12:26 |
| theril | timelyx: http://raemo.garage.maemo.org/ | 12:26 |
| lle2 | theril: but raemo doesn't do that, as far as I know | 12:26 |
| theril | lle2: Do what? | 12:26 |
| theril | BTW, I'm the one that wrote raemo ;) | 12:26 |
| lle2 | theril: mount entire root filesystems anywhere | 12:26 |
| lle2 | theril: right :D | 12:27 |
| theril | lle2: Sure it can | 12:27 |
| lle2 | theril: are you planning to sshfs the entire root from the device to the pc? that would work | 12:27 |
| timelyx | theril: raemo didn't exist as a public svn creature when i pushed garage to timeless.justdave.net and practically speaking, i don't look at garage directly if i can avoid it :) | 12:27 |
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| theril | lle2: Exactly | 12:28 |
| lle2 | theril: .sb2config is only used by the sb2 script to read in and set some environment variables | 12:28 |
| theril | And I was about to run sb2 on it, but I didn't really want to mess around as root | 12:28 |
| theril | lle2: So I can use ~/.sb2config to override it? | 12:29 |
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| lle2 | theril: basically yes, you just need to modify sb2 script a bit | 12:29 |
| theril | OK | 12:29 |
| lle2 | theril: it currently looks for .sb2rc file to find the buildroot from which to dig up .sb2config | 12:29 |
| theril | And it goes upwards the directory structure until it finds one? | 12:30 |
| lle2 | theril: you might change it so that if the buildroot doesn't have a .sb2config it just uses whatever was in .sb2rc | 12:30 |
| lle2 | theril: yes | 12:30 |
| theril | And the cache stuff could be configured in the same way | 12:30 |
| timelyx | lle2: did i ever resend that patch for sb2 | 12:30 |
| lle2 | timelyx: no | 12:31 |
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| * timelyx grumbles | 12:31 | |
| theril | Hmm.. perhaps even more elegant would be to put the .sb2config one directory below the root and in that .sb2config there would be path to the root | 12:31 |
| theril | So the magic still works but it doesn't clutter the rootfs | 12:31 |
| lle2 | theril: that wouldn't gain you anything | 12:31 |
| timelyx | config files should not be visible in the environment system | 12:31 |
| lle2 | theril: I want to have multiple roots | 12:31 |
| timelyx | ideally an app running in a scratchbox should not be able to figure out it's in scratchbox :) | 12:32 |
| lle2 | theril: just do it so that the .sb2config parameters can be defined in .sb2rc as well | 12:32 |
| theril | lle2: Yes, but you'd have like sb2/root1 sb2/root2 and sb2/.sb2config.root1 (or something like that) and when sb2 is run from inside sb2/root1 it would find the .sb2config.root1 from sb2/ | 12:33 |
| lle2 | theril: I don't run sb2 from inside the buildroot | 12:33 |
| theril | And also it would have sb2/.sb2config.root2 etc | 12:33 |
| timelyx | lle2: got sb2 sources handy? | 12:33 |
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| theril | lle2: I do ;) | 12:33 |
| lle2 | timelyx: http://freedesktop.org/Software/sbox2 | 12:33 |
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| timelyx | lle2: i mean to make changes | 12:33 |
| timelyx | i don't know where my secureid is, so i figure i'll tell you the patch here | 12:34 |
| lle2 | timelyx: uh, no, not now, I'm selling my PCs :) | 12:34 |
| timelyx | and you fix it while i wait | 12:34 |
| timelyx | !?@ | 12:34 |
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| lle2 | timelyx: getting rid of everything, even the mac mini | 12:34 |
| timelyx | bah, i'll write the general patch here, and you can pull it from the irc logs later :) | 12:35 |
| `0660 | are you turning into a monk? | 12:35 |
| timelyx | preload/sb_exec.c | 12:35 |
| timelyx | do_exec(...) | 12:35 |
| lle2 | `0660: something along those lines | 12:35 |
| lle2 | timelyx: I think I fixed that already | 12:35 |
| timelyx | lle2: you fixed the strdup? | 12:35 |
| `0660 | cool :) | 12:35 |
| timelyx | errr basename() | 12:35 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 12:36 |
| lle2 | timelyx: yeah, maybe | 12:36 |
| `0660 | maybe you have a burnout? | 12:36 |
| lle2 | `0660: no, maybe I had too many f'ing pcs that made my apartment look like a hosting facility | 12:36 |
| `0660 | :) | 12:37 |
| `0660 | how many are you going to keep? :) | 12:37 |
| lle2 | `0660: just two tiny laptops | 12:37 |
| theril | lle2: Are you going to sell the stuff? | 12:38 |
| lle2 | theril: sold already, unless you're interested in a slightly whining 17" lcd | 12:39 |
| lle2 | theril: it's not too bad, makes this annoying little sound when there's no signal | 12:39 |
| theril | lle2: Hmm.. I could be | 12:40 |
| theril | I'm planning to get rid of my TV | 12:40 |
| lle2 | theril: if you come and pick it up, you can get it for the low price of one good finnish beer | 12:41 |
| lle2 | theril: one dead pixel | 12:41 |
| theril | OK. Which beer is the good one? | 12:42 |
| lle2 | theril: koff! | 12:42 |
| theril | OK, if it has more than that, I'll take the beer back | 12:42 |
| lle2 | theril: sure, I'll return it if it comes to that | 12:43 |
| Jaffa | Anyone know of any full-screen, pretty, child-friendly URL/app launchers for XP? Something a bit like Apple's Front Row and/or their dock. | 12:45 |
| timelyx | just buy an iphone w/o a sim card :) | 12:47 |
| theril | Hmm.. has anybody got composite working on N800? | 12:48 |
| theril | I read some slides that said it's working on sardine and thought of backporting its xserver and now when I got the sources, they are the same as in bora | 12:49 |
| theril | And config has composite disabled | 12:49 |
| theril | And building with the flag fails | 12:49 |
| lle2 | useful | 12:49 |
| Jaffa | timelyx: this is for an old ThinkPad being used by Jaffa Jr ;-) | 12:49 |
| theril | http://www.slideshare.net/jobi/xcomposite-on-internet-tables | 12:51 |
| timelyx | http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=286201&cid=20437865 | 12:51 |
| theril | "Already in sardine, will come with chinook". Yeah right | 12:51 |
| * timelyx shrugs | 12:54 | |
| theril | And the damned composite compiling fails on wrong arguments given to libtool (two libraries on row without spaces, like ../foo.a../bar.la) | 12:55 |
| theril | And of course it has some autogenerated autogeneration stuff so no human being can debug them | 12:55 |
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| timelyx | that's a feature | 12:59 |
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| timelyx | www.maemo.com ?? | 13:01 |
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| theril | Why the hell people even use autotools? | 13:03 |
| pupnik | because build environments differ? | 13:04 |
| timelyx | to make life difficult :). especially to ensure that if people upgrade autotools, builds will fail | 13:04 |
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| pupnik | i've been confused about that stuff since the early 90s | 13:04 |
| pupnik | run-around in circles waving hands in the air and hollering and then running into the wall confused | 13:05 |
| theril | Its a lot easier to hand write the magic in Makefile than fight with autohell | 13:05 |
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| pupnik | well it's been working fairly well for me | 13:06 |
| pupnik | lately | 13:06 |
| theril | Hack on cludge on hack | 13:07 |
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| timelyx | ok. all products in bugs.maemo.org are things i want to exist | 13:13 |
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| timelyx | that only leaves a couple of components that should die | 13:13 |
| timelyx | helpwanted, there are 11 "applications:core", 8 "applications:hardware" and 12 "applications:User interface and graphics and style" | 13:14 |
| theril | Has there been any developments with the memory card corruption bug? | 13:16 |
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| theril | I don't dare to put my card in the device until its fixed :( | 13:17 |
| timelyx | no | 13:17 |
| theril | I heard that the cause is now known though | 13:18 |
| timelyx | really? | 13:18 |
| lle2 | yes | 13:18 |
| theril | If you have access to internal bugzilla, there's probably more info | 13:19 |
| timelyx | i'd have to find my password | 13:19 |
| timelyx | which is more trouble than it's worth | 13:19 |
| theril | But AFAIK the corruption happens when the device goes to power saving mode | 13:19 |
| timelyx | lle2: why isn't useful information in the public bugzilla? | 13:19 |
| lle2 | timelyx: no idea | 13:19 |
| theril | If I was in charge, all bugs would be in the public bugzilla | 13:20 |
| timelyx | theril: this bug is in the public bugzilla | 13:20 |
| timelyx | wrong problem | 13:20 |
| timelyx | the trick is getting all people to actually *use* the public bugzilla | 13:21 |
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| timelyx | and not, e.g. email, cubical hopping, or another bug tracker | 13:21 |
| theril | Hmm.. my login to internal bugzilla is still working :) | 13:21 |
| timelyx | i can fix that for you :) | 13:21 |
| theril | Why did I say anything :P | 13:22 |
| timelyx | i'd have to figure out who you are, and i'm way too lazy to do that | 13:22 |
| theril | Maybe I could talk about extending my NDA to keep the login | 13:23 |
| lle2 | just disable access for everybody | 13:23 |
| timelyx | theril: you couldn't talk to me about it :) | 13:23 |
| timelyx | but it sounds like a good idea | 13:23 |
| timelyx | do any of you know anything about gtk/hildon? | 13:24 |
| timelyx | do windows have "names"? | 13:24 |
| lle2 | I thought bugzilla accounts couldn't be deleted if they have bugs on them | 13:24 |
| theril | I heard that there are some community developers with access there | 13:24 |
| lle2 | so just file a few | 13:24 |
| timelyx | lle2: disabled != delete | 13:24 |
| lle2 | hmph, details, details | 13:25 |
| timelyx | disabled = bugzilla refuses to let you login | 13:25 |
| theril | timelyx: What kind of names? They do have window IDs | 13:25 |
| timelyx | theril: is that a consistent human readable string that's likely to be unique per app | 13:25 |
| timelyx | but consistent per app across app instances? | 13:25 |
| lle2 | "bob" | 13:25 |
| timelyx | sounds good | 13:26 |
| timelyx | what happens if i want two "bob" windows? | 13:26 |
| lle2 | "bob2" | 13:26 |
| lle2 | that's what happened to me | 13:26 |
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| timelyx | bob2 won't work very well | 13:27 |
| theril | timelyx: Hmm.. I don't think so. But you can set XProperty to the window | 13:28 |
| theril | There is a function to set application's name in glib, but it may be just related to debugging output etc | 13:29 |
| timelyx | application names are useless | 13:30 |
| timelyx | applications i care about have multiple window classes | 13:30 |
| timelyx | and yes, i know about the xproperties | 13:30 |
| timelyx | gecko tries (and probably fails miserably, it typically does...) to use them | 13:30 |
| theril | Why would you need the name? | 13:30 |
| timelyx | persisting window state | 13:30 |
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| timelyx | because some annoying free thinker thinks that maemo sucks | 13:31 |
| timelyx | (maemo does suck, but solving the problems he cares about is non-trivial) | 13:31 |
| lle2 | maemo can't suck, it's not a physical entity | 13:31 |
| timelyx | maemo as deployed in each product i can buy and or flash sucks | 13:31 |
| timelyx | is that acceptable? | 13:32 |
| lle2 | maemo as manifested in the form of ITOS sucks | 13:32 |
| lle2 | although even that's backwards | 13:32 |
| theril | timelyx: So that every time window opens, it opens to same place or something like that? | 13:32 |
| timelyx | theril: typically it has the same toolbar state | 13:32 |
| timelyx | or the same column order/sort, or widths | 13:33 |
| theril | I think that's more of the programs concern | 13:33 |
| theril | program's | 13:33 |
| timelyx | well, err | 13:33 |
| timelyx | he claims and in a way he's right that it's a platform bug | 13:34 |
| timelyx | the fact is, if programmers have to do things, they won't, or at least they won't consistently | 13:34 |
| theril | I think that GTK+ API is too low level to even enable that | 13:34 |
| lle2 | surely there must be a way to give a window a name? | 13:35 |
| theril | I'm not aware of system that would be needed for this | 13:35 |
| timelyx | lle2: i asked first =b | 13:35 |
| lle2 | timelyx: :D | 13:36 |
| theril | That it would detect that a window is instance of some widget configuration | 13:36 |
| lle2 | but couldn't gtk just use X to do the dirty work? | 13:36 |
| lle2 | whaat? | 13:36 |
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| theril | What is the common denominator with two instances of "same" window? | 13:37 |
| lle2 | the name? | 13:37 |
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| lle2 | or "class" or whatever they choose to call it | 13:38 |
| theril | Yes, but GTK doesn't force (or even allow) the program to specify that | 13:38 |
| lle2 | uhhuh | 13:39 |
| theril | So every program would have to be hacked to explicitly set the name using XProperty or something like that | 13:39 |
| lle2 | I'm so glad I don't have to use gtk to do my work | 13:39 |
| timelyx | i'd love to get rid of gtk | 13:39 |
| theril | Is not that bad IMHO :) | 13:39 |
| timelyx | it's such a stupid system upon which to build a platform | 13:39 |
| timelyx | theril: no, it's much worse | 13:39 |
| lle2 | maybe we shouldn't get rid of it, just build up something more sane on the side | 13:40 |
| timelyx | lle2: gecko | 13:40 |
| lle2 | that integrates well with it | 13:40 |
| theril | The abstraction level is a bit wrong though, but it makes a fine low level widget set | 13:40 |
| timelyx | xul based applications | 13:40 |
| theril | gecko is a pile of hack | 13:40 |
| timelyx | they scale, they flex, they persist | 13:40 |
| timelyx | three things the maemo platform doesn't do | 13:41 |
| lle2 | maemo scales, in man months | 13:41 |
| timelyx | oh, and generally, gecko doesn't kill itself when it runs out of memory | 13:41 |
| theril | They could be easily incorporated in the API | 13:41 |
| timelyx | lle2: that's something like 200 man months | 13:41 |
| theril | Just force programmer to set window name when creating a HildonWindow | 13:42 |
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| theril | And properly coded GTK apps do scale | 13:42 |
| lle2 | yeah, more maemo specific crap will solve the problem | 13:42 |
| timelyx | ++lle2 | 13:42 |
| timelyx | using Gazpacho (?) might solve the problem | 13:43 |
| timelyx | since it's basically getting rid of C initializers and using an xml dialect (xul done w/ gtk instead) | 13:43 |
| theril | I'm not too big a fan of that kind of stuff | 13:43 |
| theril | You'll soon end up with having a gecko (which IMO isn't very good thing) | 13:44 |
| theril | But a API like that over GTK would be good | 13:44 |
| timelyx | theril: gazpacho is basically yet another gecko | 13:44 |
| timelyx | which is silly | 13:44 |
| * timelyx wishes maemo would give up and just move to gecko | 13:44 | |
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| timelyx | we'd have a notes app that wouldn't suck | 13:45 |
| timelyx | we'd have a chance at a mail app that didn't suck | 13:45 |
| theril | AFAIK gazpacho is yet another glade | 13:45 |
| timelyx | we could make the ui designers actually write the UI instead of specifying it | 13:45 |
| timelyx | yeah, i originally wrote glade but replaced it w/ gazpacho | 13:45 |
| theril | And we'd have apps that take minutes to load | 13:45 |
| timelyx | i can't remember or understand the difference | 13:45 |
| timelyx | theril: we have skype :) | 13:46 |
| theril | And 30Mb of javascript and XML loaded in the memory at all times | 13:46 |
| timelyx | but actually, it becomes less of a problem if it's already loaded | 13:46 |
| theril | Yeah, but the 30MB could be used to something more sane | 13:47 |
| lle2 | like the current email client? :) | 13:47 |
| timelyx | theoretically sure | 13:47 |
| timelyx | but do you really trust nokia to manage that? | 13:47 |
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| timelyx | actually, at this point, i think you're likely to get the current email client :) | 13:47 |
| theril | Well maybe they'd make good use of a few of those 30 MBs :) | 13:48 |
| timelyx | pigs might fly | 13:48 |
| timelyx | would you like a meta crawler with that? | 13:49 |
| theril | timelyx: Have you done any gecko programming? | 13:49 |
| timelyx | theril: only around 7 years | 13:49 |
| timelyx | that's what i do for a living | 13:49 |
| timelyx | that's why i'm working for nokia | 13:49 |
| theril | And you like the mess that's its architecture? | 13:49 |
| timelyx | in comparison to nokia/osso/maemo? absolutely | 13:49 |
| timelyx | i'm glad you asked ;-) | 13:50 |
| theril | I think the comparsion is more against GTK+ etc | 13:50 |
| timelyx | glib/gdk/gtk/gnome/hildon/dbus | 13:50 |
| timelyx | how many cards did i miss in my house of cards? | 13:50 |
| * timelyx blows and watches it collapse | 13:51 | |
| timelyx | but even ignoring all those layers | 13:51 |
| theril | IMHO putting that monster on a portable device is plain insane | 13:51 |
| timelyx | the uis designed by/for mozilla.org are better than the junk shipped by nokia | 13:51 |
| theril | So you compare the whole gecko to the separate libraries | 13:51 |
| timelyx | i'll compare it however | 13:52 |
| timelyx | i can compare nss(works) with libcst (POS) | 13:52 |
| timelyx | i can compare PSM(works) w/ certman (has to hack around libcst) and still won't always work | 13:52 |
| theril | How about something like glib vs nsoldcludge, dbus vs the interface spec hacks etc | 13:52 |
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| theril | And I don't think gecko even has functionality that could be compared with dbus | 13:53 |
| timelyx | theril: nspr v. glib? i don't mind, nspr works, is stable, and can be fairly safely used whereever | 13:53 |
| theril | Same for glib | 13:53 |
| timelyx | glib and nspr are fairly comprable | 13:54 |
| theril | yes | 13:54 |
| timelyx | dbus is basically a library guaranteed to enable your app to crash when the system runs out of memory | 13:54 |
| timelyx | i'm happy not to be forced to have such a library | 13:54 |
| theril | And doesn't gecko use GDK? | 13:54 |
| timelyx | it doesn't have to use gdk | 13:54 |
| timelyx | at some point i'm hoping for cairo-xlib | 13:54 |
| theril | But it uses | 13:54 |
| timelyx | and on windows and osx and qnx and beos it certainly does not use gdk | 13:55 |
| timelyx | it only uses it on a handful of backwards platforms :) | 13:55 |
| theril | I think that apps should be free to crash when run out of memory | 13:55 |
| timelyx | sure | 13:55 |
| timelyx | but they shouldn't be killed by libraries | 13:55 |
| timelyx | there's a difference | 13:55 |
| theril | Working around memory ending situations is IMO too complex for application level anyway | 13:55 |
| timelyx | if my app wants to crash or not crash when it runs out of memory, that should be its cohice | 13:55 |
| timelyx | it shouldn't be in a position where a fundamental system library will crash/kill the app | 13:56 |
| timelyx | you think the system does better? | 13:56 |
| timelyx | you're nuts. | 13:56 |
| theril | I don't usually even bother to check mallocs | 13:56 |
| timelyx | the os is the thing that gets apps into the problem in the first place, and the only thing it can do to deal with it is go around shooting things | 13:57 |
| timelyx | the os is *not* in a good, or even particularly useful place to make anything close to sane decisions | 13:57 |
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| timelyx | in 2006, the os decided that the only thing it could do when it ran out of memory was shoot alarmd | 13:57 |
| theril | I have yet to see program that manages handling out of memory really better than just shutting down | 13:58 |
| timelyx | after it shot alarmd, it remembered it was supposed to run alarmd whenever alarmd died | 13:58 |
| timelyx | so, it went off and started it again | 13:58 |
| timelyx | and then it shot it again | 13:58 |
| timelyx | this repeats | 13:58 |
| timelyx | they eventually did fix that one ... | 13:58 |
| timelyx | but integrating sanity into the os is clearly rocket science | 13:59 |
| lle2 | I think the memory use of apps should be compartmentalized, and localise the killing to the box that is actually overflowing instead of going out and killing some random process | 13:59 |
| theril | The D-Bus implementation admittedly isn't very great | 13:59 |
| timelyx | lle2: what do you do when the user is annoying and tries to build make -j 100 on a box? | 13:59 |
| timelyx | no one specific process uses a lot of memory | 13:59 |
| timelyx | now sure, you could claim a job pool is | 14:00 |
| timelyx | i'd claim it's the X server :) | 14:00 |
| theril | I vote for gecko | 14:00 |
| timelyx | or init :) | 14:00 |
| theril | :P | 14:00 |
| lle2 | timelyx: those processes would sit in the "misc" box which gets only a limited chunk to be split among them | 14:00 |
| timelyx | lle2: but the main problem w/ shooting the biggest consumer | 14:00 |
| timelyx | is that on average you shoot the app the user was actually *using* | 14:00 |
| lle2 | timelyx: and X resource allocations should be taken into account | 14:00 |
| timelyx | namely, the web browser or media player | 14:01 |
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| lle2 | timelyx: I'm not shooting the biggest user, as long as it stays within its boundaries, it will live | 14:01 |
| timelyx | lle2: best way to set the boundaries is by actually returning NULL for alloc failures | 14:01 |
| timelyx | and letting the app deal | 14:01 |
| timelyx | everything else is just bad hacks | 14:02 |
| timelyx | that don't work | 14:02 |
| lle2 | timelyx: yes, that would be returned when the boundary is exceeded | 14:02 |
| theril | Programs should tell the OS how much memory they need and after the process tries to allocate more, it's shut down | 14:02 |
| timelyx | theril: how much does a web browser need? | 14:02 |
| timelyx | answer: as much as the user demands the browser need | 14:02 |
| theril | timelyx: A lot less than it uses now | 14:02 |
| lle2 | theril: it needs to be more dynamic than that | 14:02 |
| theril | lle2: Of course, but something in those lines | 14:02 |
| timelyx | theril: user decides to open 100 very heavy web pages | 14:02 |
| timelyx | user expects them all to be alive and fully functional | 14:03 |
| lle2 | timelyx: the user is then told that's not possible | 14:03 |
| timelyx | (user is crazy, but whatever) | 14:03 |
| timelyx | lle2: i'd love to | 14:03 |
| timelyx | lle2: theril wants the app to die instead | 14:03 |
| lle2 | timelyx: yup, murderous bastard | 14:03 |
| timelyx | yup | 14:03 |
| timelyx | or at least bloodthirsy | 14:03 |
| timelyx | s/y/yt | 14:04 |
| timelyx | arg | 14:04 |
| timelyx | or at least bloodthirsty | 14:04 |
| theril | I'd rather let my application die than to try to write a desperate attempt in rescuing it | 14:04 |
| timelyx | theril: fwiw, i'd rather not let users exceed 4 windows | 14:04 |
| timelyx | but i atm have no budget for making such a ue | 14:04 |
| timelyx | s/e$/i/ | 14:04 |
| sp3000 | set a tax on windows :P | 14:04 |
| lle2 | theril: the browser must be able to deal with that, it's just bad form to crash if you go to a massive slashdot comment page or something | 14:04 |
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| theril | Let them have all the windows they want, but write the DOM to HD and let it rerender it when needed | 14:05 |
| theril | lle2: Yes, but I'm talking from developers' point of view | 14:05 |
| lle2 | theril: there's no space for that on the flash, besides that would suck anyway | 14:05 |
| theril | So the better solution is just to spam the memory until it ends? | 14:06 |
| timelyx | theril: for kicks, consider: http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/1024-768.html | 14:06 |
| timelyx | theril: it's a start | 14:06 |
| timelyx | ideally gecko will recognize that it can drop an image that's not currently visible | 14:06 |
| timelyx | and replace it w/ one that it needs to show *now* | 14:06 |
| timelyx | theril: anyway, try loading that page | 14:06 |
| timelyx | butt be warned, i killed a Samsung Q1 w/ that last year | 14:06 |
| theril | timelyx: I loaded it in lynx :P | 14:06 |
| timelyx | and i've killed various unix boxes in the past | 14:07 |
| timelyx | the Q1 bluescreened, unix boxes panic | 14:07 |
| timelyx | or the xserver gets killed, which is equally amusing | 14:07 |
| timelyx | theril: anyway, how do you "render" that page? | 14:08 |
| timelyx | specifically, user loads the page and jumps to the bottom | 14:08 |
| timelyx | how do you know where the "bottom" is? | 14:08 |
| timelyx | hrm, wrong url | 14:08 |
| theril | True, I got the point | 14:08 |
| timelyx | sorry, http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html | 14:08 |
| timelyx | that's the right url | 14:08 |
| theril | But then we'll get to the subject of how much HTML sucks | 14:09 |
| * timelyx shrugs | 14:09 | |
| timelyx | i have to live with it | 14:09 |
| lle2 | browser is special of the apps that we have on the device | 14:09 |
| timelyx | i'd rather you not kill me over it | 14:09 |
| timelyx | lle2: mail and media player are not too far from it | 14:09 |
| lle2 | maybe email is a second one | 14:09 |
| timelyx | rss reader too | 14:09 |
| lle2 | kill that | 14:09 |
| timelyx | depending on how stupid you make them | 14:09 |
| theril | Well, I'm sort of pro-euthanasia | 14:09 |
| timelyx | lle2: gladly :) | 14:09 |
| timelyx | anyway, yeah, the browser is special | 14:10 |
| timelyx | most of the other apps have little excuse | 14:10 |
| timelyx | consider images which seems to get sick of the themes graphics directories :) | 14:10 |
| timelyx | it sorta goes off and hangs itself | 14:11 |
| timelyx | note: it is possible for browser to actually deal w/ that page properly | 14:11 |
| timelyx | and in fact, it doesn't do /such/ a bad job today in gecko, although it can do a better one | 14:11 |
| timelyx | actually, all things considered, that page is tame, albeit slightly overweight | 14:11 |
| theril | timelyx: Couldn't that be handled by just downloading size of the images and rendering empty boxes in place of them? | 14:11 |
| timelyx | theril: no | 14:12 |
| timelyx | you need to know if the image is valid | 14:12 |
| timelyx | which requires decoding it start to finish | 14:12 |
| timelyx | because if it's corrupt you're required to replace it | 14:12 |
| theril | By some spec? | 14:12 |
| timelyx | oh, and what happens if the image is dynamically changing between corrupt and not corrupt | 14:12 |
| timelyx | theril: html spec, yes | 14:12 |
| theril | Well, I'd say fuck you to that | 14:13 |
| timelyx | now, you could go off and download each one in turn, and determine its size and then discard it | 14:13 |
| timelyx | and then pray that the image doesn't change | 14:13 |
| timelyx | which i'm fine w/ doing | 14:13 |
| timelyx | but if you're on GPRS and paying by the byte, you /might/ not appreciate that :) | 14:13 |
| timelyx | actually, at 100+mb for the entire directory, you will never appreciate that page if you pay by the byte :) | 14:13 |
| theril | If I were to write a browser (that nobody would use :P), it would throw a parse error on corrupt data just like any other sane parser does | 14:14 |
| timelyx | no one would use it, it'd render maybe 5 pages | 14:14 |
| theril | It would also ease lots of the pain in creating the pages | 14:14 |
| timelyx | and i'm not sure which sort of corrupt data you're talking about | 14:15 |
| theril | Yes, but that's how it should work | 14:15 |
| theril | timelyx: Any | 14:15 |
| timelyx | corrupt images throw dom events | 14:15 |
| timelyx | which web pages can react to :) | 14:15 |
| timelyx | by e.g. changing the image location ... | 14:15 |
| timelyx | see... users are annoying, they expect web pages and web browsers to self correct | 14:15 |
| theril | Why the hell should corrupt images be supopported? | 14:15 |
| timelyx | offering them something instead of an error | 14:15 |
| timelyx | what do you mean "supported"? | 14:16 |
| timelyx | if an image is corrupt, you get a dom event and the image is replaced | 14:16 |
| theril | That browser should do anything else than stop rendering when one is encountered | 14:16 |
| timelyx | ?? | 14:16 |
| timelyx | the browser does lots of other things | 14:16 |
| timelyx | but the web app might want to pick an alternate image if the one it got from some server is broken | 14:16 |
| timelyx | the browser isn't a program, it's a platform | 14:17 |
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| theril | Would you like GCC to start quessing stuff (which may or may not be wrong) for you when you have incorrect syntax? | 14:17 |
| timelyx | the web app is the program, and it's the browser's job to offer the web app full flexibility | 14:17 |
| timelyx | theril: you're confused | 14:17 |
| timelyx | web browsers aren't compilers | 14:17 |
| timelyx | they're translators | 14:17 |
| theril | What's the difference? | 14:18 |
| _Monkey | the difference is Archos TI chip is more powerfull DSP | 14:18 |
| timelyx | and yes, when i speak through an interpreter, i want feedback so i can try to pick another explanation if the translator can't figure out what i'm saying | 14:18 |
| sp3000 | that'd be an interesting feature, auto-search for image based on page text content when you see a broken image | 14:18 |
| sp3000 | it could get psychedelic | 14:18 |
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| timelyx | _Monkey forget the difference | 14:18 |
| _Monkey | timelyx: I forgot difference | 14:18 |
| timelyx | _Monkey the difference is <reply> | 14:18 |
| _Monkey | OK, timelyx. | 14:18 |
| lle2 | theril: compilers are used by programmers, browsers are supposed to eat random crap from real people | 14:19 |
| timelyx | users have higher expectations than programmers | 14:20 |
| timelyx | oh, and they have money | 14:20 |
| lle2 | that helps too | 14:20 |
| timelyx | and they vote with their wallets | 14:20 |
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| timelyx | programmers either know not to use gcc or don't have a choice | 14:20 |
| timelyx | :) | 14:20 |
| theril | So everybody has to suffer so that any moron can spit crap from Frontpage that should be rendered fine? | 14:23 |
| timelyx | define suffer | 14:24 |
| timelyx | but sure | 14:24 |
| theril | I don't think that people who don't know HTML write HTML anymore | 14:24 |
| timelyx | you clearly don't browse the web | 14:24 |
| theril | I think the official definition of suffering is to get any non-trivial website working with all browsers | 14:24 |
| timelyx | or you don't use anything interesting to check for web quality | 14:24 |
| timelyx | because it's more important that i can get access to poorly written and unmaintained content than that you have some pristine value | 14:25 |
| theril | And people would learn to write HTML if the parser/browser would just spit a parse error | 14:25 |
| * timelyx chuckles | 14:25 | |
| timelyx | chicken, meet egg | 14:25 |
| timelyx | and no, they won't | 14:25 |
| timelyx | validator.w3.org exists | 14:25 |
| timelyx | extensions exist to integrate it | 14:25 |
| timelyx | most decent web design toolsets include some sort of validator | 14:26 |
| theril | Yeah, lets drag some 1985 weight just to not to have to deal with chicken-egg | 14:26 |
| theril | Yes, but because the browser renders badly formatted stuff, the validator is essentially useless | 14:26 |
| timelyx | http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmaemo.org&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0 | 14:27 |
| theril | And also as long as same HTML is rendered differently by browsers (especially with the current extent) | 14:27 |
| timelyx | http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmaemo.org%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=XHTML+1.0+Transitional&group=0 | 14:27 |
| theril | timelyx: That is useless | 14:28 |
| timelyx | theril: what about it? | 14:28 |
| theril | As long as browsers accept to render that, that has no importance at all | 14:28 |
| theril | timelyx: Validating the code | 14:28 |
| timelyx | it's basic web 101, include ALT tags for all images | 14:28 |
| timelyx | maemo.org can't even get that right on their main apge | 14:28 |
| timelyx | s/apg/pag | 14:28 |
| theril | And that basic web 101 is idiocy | 14:29 |
| * timelyx shrugs | 14:29 | |
| timelyx | you were the fool using lynx | 14:29 |
| timelyx | or was it links? | 14:29 |
| theril | I use both from time to time | 14:29 |
| theril | But for me it doesn't matter if it says [IMG] or "Image of cat" | 14:30 |
| timelyx | don't go complaining about me complaining about lack of alt tags when you use multiple browsers who benefit from it | 14:30 |
| timelyx | that's because you don't care about content | 14:30 |
| timelyx | which makes you a user i don't need to support | 14:30 |
| timelyx | users care about content | 14:30 |
| timelyx | that's why they browse the web | 14:30 |
| theril | Yes, but I've done years of web development and demanding alt is just idiotic | 14:30 |
| theril | Ask how many cares about the freaking alt-text | 14:31 |
| timelyx | how often have you been sued under sec508? | 14:31 |
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| timelyx | sp3000: did i get the number right? | 14:31 |
| theril | Never | 14:31 |
| sp3000 | probaby | 14:32 |
| sp3000 | l | 14:32 |
| timelyx | theril: try being blind for a while | 14:32 |
| lle2 | theril: the only one suffering is the poor programmer writing the browser | 14:32 |
| timelyx | it should open your eyes when you're done | 14:32 |
| lle2 | theril: nobody eles cares how bad things are, as long as it works | 14:32 |
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| theril | timelyx: I do understand the accessibility issue, but forcing the alt tag doesn't solve it the least | 14:33 |
| Jaffa | "Poor programmer" writing the browser? Spare me (apologies to timelyx) | 14:33 |
| timelyx | it's a start | 14:33 |
| Jaffa | timelyx++ | 14:33 |
| theril | Well, forcing the alt would be ok, if CSS wouldn't be such crappy | 14:33 |
| * timelyx doesn't follow | 14:34 | |
| theril | So that you'd have to use the img-tag only for "content" images | 14:34 |
| Jaffa | CSS is fine - it's idiotic web designers using images for text that cause problems in the CSS/no images combo | 14:34 |
| theril | Jaffa: CSS is far from fine | 14:34 |
| timelyx | theril: you mean if people could use css to make a page that required a 10000x9000 cnavas size? | 14:34 |
| timelyx | s/cna/can/ | 14:34 |
| infobot | timelyx meant: theril: you mean if people could use css to make a page that required a 10000x9000 canvas size? | 14:34 |
| timelyx | oh wait, they can | 14:34 |
| timelyx | i'm not sure how that helps matters | 14:35 |
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| Jaffa | theril: CSS is fine in the situation you're describing. I'm well aware of all the limitations of CSS, having been fighting with IE6 yesterday | 14:35 |
| timelyx | in fact, that makes life difficult for embedders (a hat i get to wear this year) | 14:35 |
| theril | timelyx: So that you could really put content in the HTML and formatting in CSS | 14:35 |
| timelyx | theril: if people actually used css for formatting | 14:35 |
| timelyx | i'd be in much worse shape | 14:35 |
| timelyx | i'd have to figure out what to do w/ pages such as the one i described | 14:35 |
| theril | timelyx: I do as much as I can | 14:38 |
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| theril | Well, the CSS spec sucks for both HTML and browser developers | 14:39 |
| timelyx | hildon is worse :) | 14:39 |
| theril | Floating mode has to be abused to get block elements side by side etc | 14:39 |
| theril | Hildon is about 10000x better than HTML/CSS specwise at least | 14:40 |
| lle2 | very hard to compare | 14:40 |
| lle2 | I can write a simple webpage | 14:41 |
| lle2 | I failed to write a simple hildon app when I tried | 14:41 |
| lle2 | I didn't follow any instructions for either feat | 14:41 |
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| lle2 | I find doing it using plain xlib is easier, but that's just me | 14:43 |
| timelyx | hildon doesn't have a spec | 14:43 |
| timelyx | and it changes yearly | 14:43 |
| timelyx | plus you need to recompile every 6 months | 14:44 |
| timelyx | none of these are better | 14:44 |
| timelyx | xlib is better | 14:44 |
| theril | You are insane | 14:44 |
| timelyx | i care about having a product that doesn't require a rewrite every six months | 14:44 |
| timelyx | just because someone got clever and decided to break apis | 14:44 |
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| timelyx | someone here have a normal gtk app w/ a scrollbar handy? | 14:55 |
| lle2 | theril: when are you going to pick up the monitor? | 14:55 |
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| theril | lle2: Where can I pick it up from? | 15:00 |
| timelyx | http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=286139&cid=20439513 | 15:01 |
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| tko | lle2: comparing a webpage to an application is not really interesting. it's like comparing a leaflet to tv-series | 15:24 |
| lle2 | tko: that's why I said it's hard to compare | 15:24 |
| tko | or whatever bad analogy you'd want to use | 15:24 |
| tko | right | 15:24 |
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| tko | timelyx: so how's the mozilla xlib/motif backend going? (speaking of stable APIs...) | 15:25 |
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| theril | Does anybody know where I could get an adapter for N800 which would split the 3-pole audio plug to separate input and output plugs? | 15:32 |
| theril | I couldn't even find a handsfree with wires (and don't want to destroy the one that came with the device) | 15:33 |
| theril | Or even just a 3-pole jack | 15:34 |
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| `0660 | theril, i take you mean left and right channel? | 15:51 |
| timelyx | `0660: he means mic and headset | 15:52 |
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| `0660 | hmm, is it possible? | 15:53 |
| timelyx | oh man | 15:57 |
| * timelyx curses | 15:57 | |
| timelyx | osso sucks | 15:58 |
| tko | what did it do this time? | 16:01 |
| timelyx | the contacts status bar item is a sym link to the contacts task navigator item | 16:01 |
| timelyx | so in order to disable the task navigator item and get the status bar item | 16:02 |
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| timelyx | it isn't sufficient to delete or rename the task navigator item | 16:02 |
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| timelyx | you must actually move it to statusbar | 16:02 |
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| timelyx | and then of course, it doesn't actually work | 16:02 |
| timelyx | let's not forget that detail | 16:03 |
| * timelyx gives up | 16:03 | |
| timelyx | ok, i'm down to two components | 16:09 |
| timelyx | people really don't want to help? | 16:09 |
| pupnik | what? sorry i want to help | 16:10 |
| timelyx | bugs.maemo.org, query applications:hardware or applications:core | 16:11 |
| timelyx | move the bugs to anywhere else | 16:11 |
| pupnik | ok | 16:11 |
| timelyx | preferably where they best belong | 16:11 |
| timelyx | for hardware, misdirected:nokia is often correct | 16:11 |
| timelyx | although sometimes systemsoftware:(xserver/dsme/...) is better | 16:11 |
| timelyx | for core, desktop/ or systemsoftware/ are probably best | 16:11 |
| timelyx | i have a long un posted comment for 1262 | 16:12 |
| pupnik | O_o | 16:12 |
| sp3000 | https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?product=Applications&component=Core&component=Hardware | 16:12 |
| pupnik | ok i'll schedule a block here - 19:00-21:00 CET | 16:13 |
| timelyx | sp3000: hrm.. | 16:13 |
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| timelyx | sp3000: timely dcc? | 16:15 |
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| sp3000 | I usually give up on dcc | 16:16 |
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| timelyx | try it | 16:16 |
| * sp3000 looks for an irssi manual | 16:16 | |
| timelyx | /dcc chat victim | 16:16 |
| sp3000 | it doesn't get through the proxy to cz | 16:17 |
| timelyx | ? | 16:17 |
| timelyx | you're proxying chatzilla? | 16:17 |
| sp3000 | cz talks to irssi-proxy | 16:17 |
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| timelyx | ah | 16:18 |
| timelyx | ok, lemme know if that looks ok | 16:18 |
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| Blacksito | hola | 16:28 |
| _Monkey | hey, Blacksito | 16:28 |
| Blacksito | hi _Monkey | 16:28 |
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| lle2 | theril: hello, so are you coming? | 16:48 |
| theril | lle2: How are you home today? | 16:48 |
| lle2 | theril: right now, and I'm not going anywhere | 16:48 |
| theril | I'll have to finish one Linux installation first | 16:48 |
| lle2 | x) | 16:48 |
| theril | lle2: OK, I'll try to come before 19:00 | 16:49 |
| lle2 | theril: cool, you got my address? | 16:50 |
| theril | Oh, do you have a box for it or should I bring something myself (I'm coming by bus) | 16:50 |
| lle2 | no box, sorry | 16:50 |
| theril | lle2: I *had* it, but I don't have logging on and irssi got shut down when I pulled the power plug :P | 16:50 |
| theril | So could you resend pleasE? | 16:51 |
| lle2 | will do | 16:51 |
| theril | I'll come up with somekind of box | 16:51 |
| lle2 | I think you'd manage even without one, it's in one piece | 16:52 |
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| theril | It just may start raining by look of the clouds | 16:54 |
| lle2 | that'll just add to the street credibility | 16:55 |
| theril | Yeah, and a broken monitor :P | 16:56 |
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| timelyx | ok. all gone | 17:03 |
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| Blacksitox | hi | 17:21 |
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| pupnik | made by a genuinely retarded guy | 17:29 |
| pupnik | www.alternativetentacles.com/octopodes/483/u0HBOB9KbXNa1lR233g/Wesley_Willis-Rock_n_Roll_McDo.mp3 | 17:29 |
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| Lynoure | Hi, I hope you don't mind if I ask more device question than actual maemo one... | 18:12 |
| Lynoure | I just got a N800 and the screen seems to get scratches very easily, so I'm considering a hard case and a screen protector. Recommendations? | 18:13 |
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| lle2 | Lynoure: did you remove the film that it ships with? | 18:15 |
| lle2 | I've /seriously/ punished some of those displays and I can't get them to scratch | 18:15 |
| Lynoure | lle2: this was used... I see some layer on the screen, but a part of it (about 2mm) seems to go under the bevel at the top... so I thought it was the touch sensor layer and decided not to try remove it with force | 18:16 |
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| lle2 | hmm, in the lower left corner there should be a "flap" that you can get it off from | 18:17 |
| lle2 | maybe the original owner cut that off | 18:17 |
| Lynoure | no flap, whatsoever | 18:17 |
| Lynoure | I wish I could show this, but no way I can get that good macro shot | 18:18 |
| sp3000 | it's really easy to get smudges that look like scratches | 18:19 |
| Lynoure | But, when you guys look at the very edge of the screen, can you see a border about 1-2 mm from the edge? | 18:20 |
| pupnik | the display coverings are made out of a chemical with a long name that i forget | 18:20 |
| sp3000 | that said I do have a few scratches but the smudges usually win | 18:20 |
| Lynoure | I really do not want to put force in removing something that should stay there... | 18:20 |
| Lynoure | So I need to first be sure it's something removable :) | 18:21 |
| lle2 | sure I can see the edge of the whole lcd panel, but the covering shouldn't go underneath the case | 18:21 |
| Lynoure | lle2: this edge is inside the lit area... | 18:22 |
| Lynoure | ever so slightly | 18:22 |
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| Lynoure | and I can feel my fingernail running along it, if I try that. The scratches are definately scratches, or at least microfiber cloth would not remove them | 18:23 |
| lle2 | hmm, maybe try it with something not too pointy but slim enough to fit there and try to lift it | 18:24 |
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| lle2 | no way could I get a fingernail to the edge of the lcd, but that's mostly 'cause I ain't got any | 18:25 |
| lle2 | btw, do the testing at the bottom middle of the screen, least used area ;) | 18:26 |
| Lynoure | lle2: you could feel the same edge with an edge of a paper or business card, if it there | 18:27 |
| Lynoure | s/it/it is | 18:27 |
| lle2 | I only hit the metal edge of the lcd, under which the glass + ts films go | 18:28 |
| lle2 | if you're not sure about it, just leave it. easiest way to break the lcd is to press with a sharp object near the edge | 18:29 |
| Lynoure | I need to do something... now it gets a scratch every time I draw a line with a stylus, no matter how light touch I use | 18:30 |
| lle2 | for sure those are not real scratches, I've hit one with a stylus so hard the stylus broke in pieces and there was no trace of it | 18:31 |
| Lynoure | That's why I asked recommendations for screen protectors | 18:31 |
| Lynoure | lle2: how do you define real scratches? I just rubber them with microfiber for 20 seconds, and they still seem real enough | 18:31 |
| Lynoure | s/rubber/brubbed | 18:32 |
| Lynoure | (typos, sorry) | 18:32 |
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| lle2 | real scratch would be something you can feel when drawing a line across it with a stylus | 18:32 |
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| Lynoure | to me, real scratch is anything that I can see and feel on the screen, and that is not dirt. I wish they were | 18:34 |
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| lle2 | I've had the n800 going around without any cover at all, for about 6months, and there are no scratches I could see when the backlight is on and it's showing something other than solid black | 18:35 |
| Lynoure | I guess it must be then that the protective film is still on and it gets scratches easily... I'm waiting a verification from the ex-owner before pulling it off with a tape | 18:38 |
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| lle2 | I've seen screens that went through 30 000 - 60 000 chinese characters to the same place by a robot and I have to look *very* carefully to see any sign of that load | 18:39 |
| lle2 | sure it affects the electrical properties, but it's very difficult to see it visually | 18:40 |
| Lynoure | That's nice to hear | 18:40 |
| pupnik | cool | 18:40 |
| Lynoure | Then, once I get that thing off thing, I'll only need a case, and no protector | 18:41 |
| pupnik | well as long as the protector is on, only the protector is getting scratched | 18:42 |
| Lynoure | pupnik: yes, sounds so. I bet no pulling on the screen has been tested, though, so I hope this film is not too stickily on. | 18:43 |
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| Lynoure | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4975 sounds like my story (minus the fact I never saw the tab) | 18:47 |
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| Lynoure | especially this bit sums up why I was wondering about whether it was the touchfilm: " I've looked closely at the factory 'screen protector' - there's a strange tiny tab at the top that disappears under the plastic rim (top mid-right) - never removed it as I feared the screen protector may actually be the touchscreen film itself!" | 18:51 |
| lle2 | we really should mark it with "remove before use" | 18:52 |
| lle2 | in big bold opaque letters diagonally across the whole screen | 18:52 |
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| Lynoure | Got it out now with the tape trick | 18:54 |
| Lynoure | :) | 18:54 |
| lle2 | I bet that "protector" wears off pretty badly as it's only designed to protect the lcd during the manufacturing process | 18:55 |
| lle2 | same thing as some people leave that film in place for their mobile phones, can hardly see anything through after couple of months | 18:56 |
| Lynoure | it seems many people managed to pull off the removal tab, but not the film | 18:57 |
| lle2 | heh | 18:57 |
| Lynoure | I'll have to post the trick to that thread. A lot safer than trying to press in a fingernail | 18:58 |
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| Lynoure | Thanks, all, again :) | 19:14 |
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| robtaylor | jumpula: hey, do you know if chinook will be moving the debian-etch devkit? | 20:07 |
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| tso | gah, i keep getting the "new version" message when starting pidgin. but its not available on the repos :( | 20:12 |
| `0660 | try not start it :) | 20:13 |
| tso | :P | 20:14 |
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| theril | lle2: The display is dead silent | 21:29 |
| lle2 | ? | 21:30 |
| lle2 | no way | 21:30 |
| theril | lle2: The display I "bought" from you | 21:30 |
| theril | Did you use DVI or VGA? | 21:30 |
| lle2 | you've connected the power cable? | 21:30 |
| lle2 | both | 21:30 |
| theril | Yes | 21:30 |
| lle2 | checked all the connections? | 21:30 |
| lle2 | does it light up the orange led in the power button? | 21:31 |
| theril | No, I mean that there's no extra sounds :P | 21:31 |
| theril | The picture is ok :) | 21:31 |
| lle2 | oh | 21:31 |
| lle2 | man | 21:31 |
| lle2 | I think I muted it from the menu | 21:33 |
| lle2 | theril: check the menu thingy for something related to audio | 21:34 |
| theril | So the sound comes from the speakers? | 21:34 |
| lle2 | yes | 21:35 |
| lle2 | or so I think | 21:35 |
| lle2 | maybe it has some psychic interface | 21:35 |
| theril | OK. I'm not planning to use it anyway | 21:35 |
| lle2 | it's better to keep it muted | 21:35 |
| theril | Yeah, maybe it has something personal against you | 21:35 |
| lle2 | I remember that it made hideous noise | 21:35 |
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| theril | lle2: Do you know what the USB-port in the display is for? | 22:12 |
| lle2 | theril: there is a usb port? | 22:16 |
| theril | lle2: Yep, with a weird kind of connector | 22:17 |
| theril | Like one on some printers | 22:17 |
| lle2 | no idea | 22:18 |
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