IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2007-09-02

timelyxmilhouse: silly thought00:00
timelyxif the background of the page or cell isn't white, what happens?00:00
sp3000you might be able to allow it to finish by disabling lifeguard reset00:00
milhousedunno, let me try00:00
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smokiesp3000, the CPU usage grows. MEM is always 0.000:01
milhouseit displays the background colour where it should display the image00:01
milhouseso when i changed the bgcolor to red, it displayed red in between the left and right gifs00:02
smokiewhy is /dev/mtdbloc4 mounted as /mnt/initfs and "/" ?00:02
timelyxok, can you upload a testcase w/ an extra row that shows that?00:02
timelyxbtw, see the url field :)00:02
milhouseok00:02
timelyxsp3000: 1792...00:03
timelyxwhere can i dump this?00:04
sp3000I can't think of anything better than syssw/gen00:07
timelyxhow about    1919?00:10
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sp3000same00:10
* timelyx sighs00:11
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timelyx"Select component ..."  "Delete Component ..." what's wrong with this picture?00:11
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sp3000oh, darn, weba_me_copy_img_location00:14
* sp3000 forgets if that's filed somewhere00:15
timelyxsp3000:00:16
timelyxhttp://mxr-test.landfill.bugzilla.org/bugzilla/search?string=component&find=tmpl&filter=title.*%28elect%7Celete%2900:16
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milhousebug 1955 updated with additional screenshots/test case00:20
_MonkeyBug 1955 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195500:20
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sp3000timelyx: Translations :: Svenska (Servige)  s/Servige/Sverige/00:30
sp3000(name and desc)00:30
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timelyxoops. on it00:30
timelyxcheck agian?00:31
sp3000looks ok00:32
sp3000do you happen to remember if the missing string in the image context menu is filed somewheres or shall I file a todo note on bugs.maemo so I'll check it monday? :)00:32
timelyxdon't recall it00:32
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milhousetimeless: yes, i saw you changed the url field, that's quite neat - such a shame it doesn't work in IE00:41
smokiesp3000, i turned off the lifeguard (i can see some text on the bootlogo) , but the n770 restarts again. :-(00:42
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* timelyx sighs00:53
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timelyxmilhouse: yeah well, it works on microb and firefox. i don't care about anything else generally00:54
milhousei know - i was thinking it might be useful for other things00:54
timelyxmilhouse: note that typing the original url on my device is painful, so i use tinyurls00:54
timelyxthe reason to convert a random ip to a bugzilla link is that the bugzilla link will last forever00:54
milhousetrue... but i don't intend giving up this ip address for a long time :)00:55
timelyxoh sure00:55
timelyxi didn't  intend to give up my domain names00:55
timelyxi still almost did one or two days ago00:55
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milhousei don't mind, that's why i attached the archives just in case00:55
timelyxarchives are appreciated and encouraged :)00:56
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milhouseso going anywhere nice for your vacation?00:56
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timelyxvienna, bologna, milano, munich, frankfurt, bern(?), strausborg, paris00:57
timelyxvienna and paris have plane tickets, paris has  a place to stay, all points between are tentative00:57
milhousenice :) you'll need a month for all of those places!00:58
timelyxthat's the general idea :)00:58
timelyxeuropean vacation length is 4 weeks00:58
timelyxunlike american which is 2 for starters, and 3 eventually00:58
pupnik_You meeting up with anyone in frankfurt?00:58
timelyxknow anyone there?00:59
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pupnik_i'm in the neighborhood :)00:59
timelyxi know two people in vienna and hope to meet them00:59
milhousein the uk it varies... few firms will let you take a full month off even though you typically get 20+ days a year minimum00:59
timelyxwell, ... hrm, calendar,...00:59
pupnik_I don't know anything interesting in frankfurt per-se - expensive town01:00
milhousefrankfurt - not very nice so i've heard (from expats who live[d] there)01:01
milhousea bit industrial01:01
timelyxfrankfurt looks like it's ~sep 25-2701:01
timelyxi am likely to drop *something*01:02
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timelyxas balogna will have to be long (midweek + weekend). generally i'm trying to make cities one or the other01:02
milhouseno london?01:03
timelyxsorry, i did london in spring(?)01:03
timelyxit was before we announced microb01:03
milhouseedinburgh? though you'll have just missed the fringe01:03
timelyxlondon, cambridge, oxford, bath, windsor, brighton01:04
milhousei hope you like rugby, the world cup is taking place in france (several games in paris) during september01:05
timelyxi expect to return to the british isles (to do the isles...) some other year01:05
milhousehttp://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/fixtures/poolstage.html01:05
timelyxi'll be in france the first week of oct :)01:06
timelyxpupnik_: /msg me your contact info? (esp cell)01:06
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milhouseah, knock out stages by then - the only paris game is 19 Oct01:07
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milhousealthough saint-denis is only a short distance north of paris01:09
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timelyxhttp://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800/01:19
timelyxWhat Nokia Could Steal from Apple Today01:19
timelyxThe N800's "Hildon" UI is shown at left, ...01:19
timelyxam i disoriented or is the author confused?01:19
* timelyx is using noscript01:19
milhouseconfused I think :)01:20
timelyxhe's actually confused on a number of points01:22
timelyxalthough they're details01:22
timelyxhe claims you can't have more than one app on the screen01:23
timelyxyou can have about 301:23
timelyxTN, <whatever>, keyboard01:23
milhousepedant :)01:24
timelyxand proud of it :)01:25
kikkagood night01:25
timelyxwait, he's complaining that the n800 isn't stable because opera only crashed twice?01:25
timelyxsilly customer01:25
milhouseg'night... and time i was off too01:25
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milhouseopera? what's that?01:25
timelyxit's only 130am01:25
timelyxmilhouse: a stable application01:26
milhousemy dinner just arrived01:26
* timelyx is used to things crashing dozens of time01:26
timelyxs01:26
milhousenot on internet tablets!01:26
milhousei've had fewer crashes with micro-b than opera01:26
milhouse(well done)01:26
timelyxbtw, to some extent, i would like cores /media/mmc1/core-dumps/ from microb01:27
milhouseso if you create that directory, it will automagically create a core dump?01:27
timelyxalthough if it's flash related, we probably don't care. the next flash release w/ the next microb should be less crashy01:27
timelyxyes01:27
milhousedoes it overwrite an existing core or create a unique name?01:28
timelyxthere's a proc thing that controls it01:28
timelyxit uses pids and process names01:28
timelyxso you should run out of space before it overwrites01:28
milhousei'll create that directory... despite my above comment, in the last few days i've had a few errors starting micro-b... start it a second time and it works no problem01:28
timelyxand believe me, you will run out of space :)01:28
milhouseshould take a while... i've got 3GB of space :)01:29
timelyxi had 512 for my 770, that didn't work so i upgraded to 1gb, that didn't work01:30
timelyxand then we got n800s, so i eventually ordered 2gb cards01:30
milhousefor a single core?01:30
timelyxi've had cores that were ~400mb from mahjong :)01:30
milhouseflippin heck01:30
milhouse:)01:30
timelyx:)01:30
milhousewell 3GB should be enough to squeeze in a couple of cores!01:31
timelyxbut yeah, normally a core should be <100mb, so you should get a bunch before you run out01:31
timelyxof course, if you have a symlink in ~/MyDocs to say /01:31
timelyxand you have the media crawler daemon01:31
timelyxthen well,.... it'll just dump cores until your card is full :)01:31
milhousenice :)01:32
timelyxload: /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern in your browser01:32
timelyxhrm01:32
timelyxinteresting01:32
timelyxmine doesn't say what i expected01:32
timelyxwhat's yours say?01:32
timelyxsp3000: how do i control where cores go?01:32
sp3000timelyx: /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern01:33
* sp3000 reads up01:34
milhousemine says: /media/mmc1/core-dumps/%e-%s-%p-2007.26-8_PR.core01:34
timelyxwow01:34
timelyxso they've changed it occasionally01:34
timelyxyou can read google for core_pattern to understand what it means01:34
timelyxbut in short, the directory i gave is right :)01:34
milhouseyes, i've created it so next time micro-b refuses to start i'll send you a core - how do you like to receive them?01:35
milhousetoo big for a bug report01:35
timelyxdetailed bugs w/ urls to cores will do01:35
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timelyxi don't want cores while i'm on vacation :)01:35
milhousehmm... not sure how much space i have on my web host01:36
timelyxfeel free to bz2 them01:36
timelyxtry docs.google for hosting :)01:36
milhouseyeah, i probably have enough space for half a dozen assuming they compress nicely01:36
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milhouseright... my dinner is getting cold... really have to go... night all :)01:37
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ekim|ircDoes anyone here work on the maemo site ?01:45
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sp3000timelyx: wow02:28
sp3000I can get three different results from vkb upstrokes02:28
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sp3000in cases where there's no stylus jumping effects02:28
sp3000I can get a) nothing b) uppercase c) lowercase repeat (?!)02:29
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sp3000the funny thing is, lowercase repeat is triggered by tap and hold on a vkey, and dragging off the key stops the repeat02:30
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sp3000but a fast upstroke can lead to lowercase repeat starting after the drag, and not stoppable by dragging about more02:31
sp3000even if I intersect the active vkey02:31
timelyxnice02:31
pupniktimelyx: did you get my PMs?02:31
timelyxonly the first two02:32
timelyxoh right02:32
pupnikok - you never answered02:32
timelyxi can't msg back02:32
timelyxsorry02:32
pupniknp02:32
timelyxyou have to register to message back02:32
timelyxand i'm not registered02:32
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pupnikwb unique31102:33
unique311hello02:33
unique311http://forum.gizmoproject.com/viewtopic.php?t=7098&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=c9ce10b400d7c32129830109aa04849e02:33
unique311old news?02:33
timelyxbut my client  doesn't send me the error to the msg window, it sends it to the server window02:33
timelyxwhich i don't see02:33
pupnikyeah mine too - happens to me also02:33
unique311How to post on maemo.org news02:33
timelyxanyway, "yes, i rang" because calling is free02:33
GSsomeone know how to umount mmc1 card? tellme device busy and not app bussy i think02:34
pupnikunique311: maybe you should wait for a public release?02:35
unique311anyone?02:35
unique311well its on ITT..02:35
pupnikit could be put on the WIP page02:36
unique311well someone will see it on ITT, and post it on maemo.org02:38
GSok virtual memory its cause.. ;)02:38
GShehe02:38
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unique311will this push skype to incoperate the video feature in skype for the N89902:43
unique311800*02:43
unique311hope so, sound on gizmo to me is much better than skype on the N80002:44
pupnikhow loud can you turn up the volume using gizmo, unique311 ?02:46
sp3000timelyx: I bet part of the problem is many people like to do gestures like clicks and drags "harder" when they're not working02:46
unique311the vlume on my N800 is always at max02:46
unique311no reason to turn it down never use it with a headphone.02:47
sp3000which in the case of screwed up mouse clicks that end up as short drags in the hands of ...er, normal people or something... just makes it less likely to work02:47
sp3000and in the case of vkb upstrokes also makes it less likely to work02:47
sp3000not that it should or anything ;)02:50
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Blacksitoxbuenas tardes02:50
|tbb|any way to use the skype sms feature on n800?02:51
unique311|tbb|, when you figure out how to go about doing so, let me know.02:55
unique311only way I can think of is probably via web browser02:56
|tbb|to bad02:57
Tu13esI use AIM for texting peopel02:58
Tu13espeople02:58
_Monkeypeople are packing for guadec etc02:58
Tu13esI don't see why Skype charges normal SMS rates when you can do it free from plenty of places02:58
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GSone question03:02
GSi have a partition table in mmc card03:02
GSand i would like install os2007he there03:02
GShow i can install on card without eraser flash memory and os2006?03:03
timelyxTu13es: why question a business that makes money?03:03
|tbb|Tu13es: tell me a good one03:03
sp3000_Monkey: forget people03:04
_Monkeysp3000: I forgot people03:04
sp3000_Monkey: people is <reply>03:04
_MonkeyOK, sp3000.03:04
sp3000makeworkbot03:04
GSwith ./flasher-2.0 -F  SU-18_2007HACKER_2.2006.47-17_PR_F5_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R --enable-rd-mode  erase my flash memory, i would like install os2007 in mmc someideas?03:06
GSi have installed bootmenu and partition table with Linux_83 type03:06
GSi have use nokia propietary software on window$?03:07
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|tbb|timelyx: ill waiting ;)03:12
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timelyxgreat, web browser crashed trying to open themes03:23
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pupnikunique311: then gizmo must be using feedback-cancellation03:25
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timelyxsp3000?03:26
timelyxtry using /usr/share/themes/default and clicking "images"03:27
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sp3000wfm03:28
sp3000assuming the alternative is to crash03:28
timelyxk03:29
timelyxwhich browser?03:29
sp3000microb03:30
_Monkeymicrob is the nokia sponsored gtk2-cairo hack of gecko for use by /usr/bin/browser via eal on n800 (4.2007)03:30
sp3000thanks for the elaboration _Monkey03:30
timelyxi just hung images03:31
timelyxtry this:03:31
timelyxxterm03:31
timelyxcd03:31
timelyxcd M<tab03:31
timelyxln -s / rt03:31
timelyxexit03:31
timelyximages03:31
markghi people, when booting my n800, I am getting this "tcm825xsensor_init(): Failed to detect TCM825x sensor chip"03:31
markgis my device stuffed?03:31
timelyxfile>open (browse to desktop/rt/usr/share/themes/theme1/images)03:31
timelyxopen the first image, and press next (hardware?) 56+ times03:32
sp3000I got to 8803:35
timelyxand then?03:35
_Monkeythen is not free software, it is not GNU/linux embedded, i refuse to use a phone that has not GNU/linux03:35
timelyx_Monkey forget then03:35
_Monkeytimelyx: I forgot then03:35
timelyx_Monkey then is <reply>03:35
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.03:35
* timelyx finally gets Images - ... is not responding. Close application?03:36
sp3000hmm, why is that image of two or five sideways03:37
* sp3000 doesn't see such an image in the dir by the given prefix03:37
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sp3000$ fgrep image /proc/[0-9]*/cmdline | wc -l03:39
sp30001403:39
sp3000that's ...interesting03:39
timelyxyes, my top listed a great deal of "processes" of the same size03:41
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sp3000ah, initial image -> 4, filepicker -> 1203:45
* sp3000 wasn't expecting that many03:45
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unique311anyone using an n800 with gizmo installed04:30
unique311?04:30
unique311i want to test out the camera..04:30
unique311works on my end..04:30
unique311not sure about the beta, might have sound issues04:31
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unique311pupnik, did you add smw to the garage?06:53
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Blacksitoxbye07:32
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straind`Does anyone know how to switch from the fingerboard to the keyboard in VNC?08:23
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timelyxerr08:43
timelyxdepending on what you actually mean08:43
timelyxthe rumor implies you'd need to stick a maemo gtk immodule in the host system08:44
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timelyxstraind`: oh, from finger to virtual? shouldn't it be sufficient to minimize the finger keyboard and single tap an  input field?10:30
straind`It doesn't seem to work in VNC.10:31
timelyxyou're vncing to your device?10:32
straind`from10:32
timelyxfrom i.e. you're running vnc client on your device?10:33
straind`Yeah.  VNC viewer connecting to VNC server on my desktop.10:34
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timelyxso, getting those keyboards to work requires the application be able to explain widgets well enough to a gtk im10:34
straind`I get the virtual for password entry, but once connected, it's finger.10:35
straind`im?10:35
timelyxthe simplest test of this is trying to run vnc on your desktop to a second workstation and trying to use japanese input methods [im] on your client desktop10:35
timelyxif you can't make that work, then expecting this to work is unreasonable10:35
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straind`I need sleep.  That looks like english, but I don't understand it. :)10:36
timelyxsome languages are so complicated you can't really have a keyboard w/ just ~100 keys to input the characters10:40
timelyxso they generally require software and some sort of window for dealing w/ input10:40
timelyxthis begat Input Method Editors [IMEs]10:41
straind`It's weird.  I can get the finger up with the select button, and close it with the same.  When I try to get the keyboard up by tapping the icon of the paper and pencil, nothing happens until I tap it again and get the fingerboard again.10:41
timelyxsome devices are so frustratingly small, that they too needed some sort of window for dealing w/ input, this resulted in using the same system of IMEs on small devices10:42
timelyxbut typically in order to support an IME you need to either use widgets predesigned for the IME (e.g. Gtk widgets will sorta automatically work w/ gtk-im-modules)10:43
timelyxor you need to write your own glue to connect to them10:43
timelyxopera, mozilla, and vnc would fall into that latter catgeory10:43
timelyxs/geo/ego/10:43
infobottimelyx meant: opera, mozilla, and vnc would fall into that latter category10:43
timelyxsince they all draw their own "widgets" to the extent that they even understand what a widget is10:43
timelyxin the case of vnc, it would basically have to pretend to be an IM in order to ask the apps it's rendering enough questions to make a local IM happy10:44
straind`Ok.  So it's VNC on the 770s fault for not requesting the right thing, but it could be fixed by someone who understands it more than I do right now. :)10:46
timelyxthat's my presumption, yes10:46
timelyxand the way to test it is to use japanese w/ desktop boxes10:46
timelyxif japanese "works correctly", then the problem could be maemo's fault instead10:46
timelyxcould. IMEs are pains10:46
timelyxi think they make general unicode handling seem like a piece of cake10:47
straind`Ok.  I'm hoping I won't have to deal with that too soon. :)10:47
straind`While I've got you, how hard is it to modify a virtual keyboard?10:47
timelyxplease be more specific10:48
straind`I use the US & UK keyboards.10:49
timelyxthere are keyboard layouts, i think that someone reverse engineered enough to get hebrew working10:49
timelyxthere's actually a public doc explaining how to write your own layout10:49
timelyxand there's a package w/ the program to "compile" layouts10:49
straind`Ok.  I'll look for it when my eyes aren't closed. :)10:49
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timelyxwoohoo11:11
* timelyx goes off to kill 3 products11:11
* timelyx frowns11:13
timelyxwe have an Other for bugs about maemopad?11:13
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lle2timelyx: couldn't you maybe sneak in an inconspicuous product "3rd party" with skype and flash as components?11:18
timelyxlle2: skype is in communications11:18
timelyxbecause it was already in the bug db before i started11:19
timelyxso it moved to communications when i moved things11:19
timelyxbefore i was told not to have it11:19
lle2really? I couldn't see it at the time11:19
timelyxit's there11:19
timelyxi put ~5 bugs there recently11:19
lle2alright, no worries then11:19
timelyxflash is in browser because i own browser11:19
lle2:)11:19
timelyxand i need a place to say "not my fault"11:19
lle2yup11:20
timelyxthe only thing is that browser has nokians, so we can touch bugs11:20
timelyxit's unclear how places that don't have nokians will deal with bugs given standard contract procedure11:20
timelyxbut at least flash has promised to look periodically11:20
lle2maybe jaaksi will handle them11:20
timelyxwho?11:20
timelyxok.11:21
lle2dr. ari j. our benevolent leader ;)11:21
timelyxdoes he have a bugs.maemo.org account?11:21
lle2no idea, but he should11:21
timelyxit'd be amusing to make him watch misdirected:nokia ;)11:21
lle2:D11:21
timelyxis a bug about mameopad (sdk docs) something that should go in development platform, documentation, or website:documentation?. the bug includes a fix for a compile error11:22
* timelyx needs to see about killing website:documentation11:22
timelyxhe has an account11:23
timelyxi'm not quite sure i feel like sending an email saying "dear benevolent leader, i've impersonated you to make you watch misdirected nokia related bugs"11:24
lle2pre-texted, that's more mgmt language11:25
timelyxwhat i could do, i suppose, is write a blog entry with suggestions for what various people should watch and detailed steps11:25
timelyxpre-texted?11:25
lle2you've not followed the hp saga?11:25
timelyxi followed it, but i didn't expect someone to mention it11:25
timelyxso what would that mean?11:26
lle2pre-texting is supposedly when somebody (il)legitimately pretends to be someone else to gain something11:26
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timelyxactually11:26
timelyxthere's a simple way to do that11:26
timelyxi could send him an html message w/ an image which would subscribe him to the mail as long as he's already logged into bugzilla :)11:26
lle2I guess it was first used to describe the process of acquiring somebody else's phone records from the phone companies11:27
* timelyx nods11:27
timelyxin this case, one of the nokia qas sent me an email @ my nokia address asking me if i had impersonated them and why11:27
timelyxi said, yes. but i was fairly shocked that they recognized it was me11:27
timelyxsince afaik my real name and timeless aren't very connected in nokia circles11:28
lle2heh11:28
timelyxthere's a great quote in mozilla.org circles11:28
timelyxis a bug about mameopad11:29
timelyxeep11:29
timelyxhttp://quotes.burntelectrons.org/138811:29
timelyxooh, i got a kudo, wow11:31
`0660so what's with this new nick? are you trying to be anonymous? :)11:31
timelyxhttp://www.ohloh.net/accounts/6653/positions/339311:31
timelyx_Monkey me?11:31
_Monkeyhmmm... timelyx is your mac, it has scrollback11:31
timelyx_Monkey timele61i?11:31
_Monkeysomebody said timele61i was well, your phone or timeless using a nokia e61i (blueberry)11:31
timelyxno, i just have a number of accounts w/ various properties11:31
timelyxtimeless is my identity, the others are variations based on connectivity11:31
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`0660i didn't know you could do irc with Lyx :P11:32
`0660i wasn't even able to do my thesis with it11:33
`0660i had to use latex11:33
`0660so what's your nick when using n800? :)11:36
timelyxtypically timeless here11:39
timelyxfrom my n800 i tend to use ssh/screen/epic11:39
timelyxon moznet it's timeless/timely depending on the channel11:40
timelyx(two screen sessions)11:40
`0660pretty confusing :)11:40
timelyxi don't use nick coloring, always address timeless, i'll respond if i'm alert11:40
timelyxor when i read scrollback11:40
timelyxi'll respond to the others too, since i'm reading everything11:41
c0ffeedo you also have a life? :)11:41
timelyxi have a summer vacation starting next week, does that count?11:41
c0ffeedepends on what you do there11:42
c0ffeeif you'll spend it hanging on irc reading backlogs, no11:42
timelyxtravel/pray11:42
`0660i think 5 irc nicks should count as one life :)11:43
timelyxi expect to spend less than half my days w/ access to anything electronic11:43
timelyxthat includes things like lights11:43
c0ffeewhere to you travel to?11:43
timelyxwe'll see how close i get to that11:43
timelyxvienna, bologna, milano, munich, frankfurt, bern, strausborg, paris11:44
timelyxonly the first and last are guaranteed11:44
timelyxi'm currently considering swapping bologna, milano for milano, tonio, or milano, bologna11:44
c0ffeegoing along some pilgrims way?11:44
timelyxi might drop bern or trade it for zurich11:44
timelyxnot specifically, it's sorta a "hit classic central europe"11:45
c0ffeei live halfway between zurich and strasbourg11:46
timelyxi have plans to hit the Mediterranean and British Isles in subsequent years (along w/ a couple of others)11:46
timelyxoh yeah, Nordic countries is one of the other trips :)11:46
c0ffeemy next trip is to tokyo11:46
timelyxnice11:46
c0ffeechecking whether the sites from mega tokyo actually exist11:47
timelyxi have an invite but no allotment11:47
timelyxheh11:47
* timelyx tries to figure out what to do w/ a bug asking for bluetooth printing11:48
timelyxconnectivity:bluetooth, desktop:user interface, misdirected:nokia11:48
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therilHmm.. where have the sardine repositories gone?11:51
timelyx?11:52
therilhttp://repository.maemo.org/sardine/ says "Sardine has moved to the Maemo Garage. If your browser doesn't automatically redirect there click here"11:55
therilAnd the getting started document from that page redirects to wiki document, that gives the http://repository.maemo.org/sardine/ -repository11:55
timelyxhttp://sardine.garage.maemo.org/11:56
* timelyx sighs11:57
timelyxfinns are strange11:57
therilThat's the page that the old repository redirects to11:57
timelyxonly a finn would think to call sardine's fresh or tasty11:57
pupnikhahahaha11:57
timelyxnow, that's not to say i have anything personally against sardines, i just won't eat them :)11:58
pupnikthey're ok imo11:58
pupnikUnfortunately we are poisoning the oceans - mercury levels etc11:59
pupnikbut offtopic..11:59
timelyxhttp://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/11:59
timelyxsardine is walkable11:59
* timelyx loves seeing ip addresses in files: http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/sardine-experimental.sources.list12:01
theriltimelyx: They are internals12:02
timelyxtheril: that's fairly stupid for a public project, no?12:03
theriltimelyx: Yep12:04
timelyxbut what makes you say they're internal?12:05
therilBecause 192.x are intranet IPs12:05
lle2timelyx: why do you think sardine was coined by a finn?12:06
timelyxno12:06
timelyxhttp://www.geocities.com/technofundo/tech/misc/abcofip.html12:06
timelyxThere are 3 IP network addresses reserved for private networks.12:06
timelyx    * 10.0.0.0 to 10.255.255.25512:06
timelyx    * 172.16.0.0 to 172.31.255.25512:06
timelyx    * 192.168.0.0 to 192.168.255.25512:06
lle2timelyx: isn't that one of carlos' projects?12:06
timelyxlle2: maybe, perhaps i'm wrong. it just seems like a finnish choice. perhaps i should apologize :|12:07
therilThen I'm glad to be wrong :)12:07
therilBut the IP doesn't answer anyway12:08
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therilHmm.. lets try chinook then12:09
therilDoes anybody have chinook's repository's URL at hand?12:09
lle2timelyx: 192. addresses can still be internal to nokia12:09
timelyxlle2: to the extent that they're a specifically allocated netblock, sure12:10
timelyxbut not for the standard "oh, it's 192.168.*"12:10
lle2yes12:10
timelyxhttp://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/sardine-experimental_closed.sources.list12:10
timelyxnow that's a funny list12:10
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therilArgh, developing outside Nokia is pain12:11
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timelyxi hope you don't think developing inside nokia is cake12:12
therilWell I didn't have to hunt down stuff like this12:12
* timelyx chuckles12:12
timelyxsure you do12:12
timelyxor at least, i do12:12
timelyxinstead of 3 inconsistent wikis12:13
timelyxyou have 50 you don't know about12:13
timelyxand hundreds of people you don't know well enough to know if they know what you need to know12:13
therilI know, but I'm now talking about getting the sources12:13
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timelyxsure12:13
timelyxsame problem12:14
timelyxgetting sources involves figuring out who has sources and how to retrieve them12:14
timelyxto /some/ extent, my computer at work solves that problem12:14
timelyxbut only when i found out, which can be months late12:14
therilWasn't atleast for me, I just put the integration repository to sources.list and pulled all the fresh stuff12:14
timelyxand since it isn't cron'd yet, my server will be basically 4 weeks stale for a heavy period12:15
* timelyx shrugs12:15
timelyxworking off integration repositories is /sometimes/ useful, and usually frustrating12:15
timelyxthey keep changing their structure12:16
timelyxhttp://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/Y.txt12:16
timelyxcan someone please explain that file?12:17
therilI had no problems12:17
therilA workaround for lack of /bin/yes?12:17
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* timelyx considers enrolling in sardine to fix a typo in http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/sardine/trunk/README.rootstraps#412:18
timelyxlle2: think anyone would mind?12:19
lle2timelyx: mind what?12:20
timelyxif i fixed the spelling of "built" by forcibly adding myself to svn access and committing the fix12:21
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therillle2: BTW, is it possible in Sb2 to have the .sbconfig file somewhere else than in the "root" directory?12:21
lle2that's counter-revolutionary thinking12:21
therilI'm thinking of using a mount of N800 root as Sb2 root fs12:21
lle2theril: sure it would be possible, what would be a good place?12:21
timelyxwhat's a "root" directory in this case?12:22
timelyxthe root of the scratchbox?12:22
lle2the root of the buildroot12:22
lle2as in $HOME/buildroot/.sb2config12:22
therillle2: Well perhaps home directory or someplace writable by 'user' (instead of root)12:22
timelyxdoes sb2config let me have more than one scratchbox?12:23
lle2timelyx: yes12:23
therilI really don't want to have sb2 running with root access on my device ;)12:23
lle2timelyx: as many as you like12:23
* timelyx is confused12:23
timelyxtheril: what am i missing?12:23
timelyxwhere does root come in?12:23
theriltimelyx: It would use a remotedly mounted FS of the N80012:24
therilAnd if I want to write the config to root of the N800, it would have to be mounted as root12:24
timelyxoh12:25
timelyxso you're using sb2 for sbrsh transparency12:25
therilAnd then sb2 magic would probably fuck up the system totally :P12:25
timelyxor trying to12:25
theriltimelyx: Not exactly12:25
* pupnik ponders12:25
lle2theril: that's interesting way of setting it up12:25
* timelyx doesn't exactly get it12:25
lle2might be useful12:25
therilIn fact I'm thinking of using raemo to mount and run stuff with sb212:25
timelyxRaemo?12:25
`0660Raimo12:26
theriltimelyx: http://raemo.garage.maemo.org/12:26
lle2theril: but raemo doesn't do that, as far as I know12:26
therillle2: Do what?12:26
therilBTW, I'm the one that wrote raemo ;)12:26
lle2theril: mount entire root filesystems anywhere12:26
lle2theril: right :D12:27
therillle2: Sure it can12:27
lle2theril: are you planning to sshfs the entire root from the device to the pc? that would work12:27
timelyxtheril: raemo didn't exist as a public svn creature when i pushed garage to timeless.justdave.net and practically speaking, i don't look at garage directly if i can avoid it :)12:27
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therillle2: Exactly12:28
lle2theril: .sb2config is only used by the sb2 script to read in and set some environment variables12:28
therilAnd I was about to run sb2 on it, but I didn't really want to mess around as root12:28
therillle2: So I can use ~/.sb2config to override it?12:29
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lle2theril: basically yes, you just need to modify sb2 script a bit12:29
therilOK12:29
lle2theril: it currently looks for .sb2rc file to find the buildroot from which to dig up .sb2config12:29
therilAnd it goes upwards the directory structure until it finds one?12:30
lle2theril: you might change it so that if the buildroot doesn't have a .sb2config it just uses whatever was in .sb2rc12:30
lle2theril: yes12:30
therilAnd the cache stuff could be configured in the same way12:30
timelyxlle2: did i ever resend that patch for sb212:30
lle2timelyx: no12:31
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* timelyx grumbles12:31
therilHmm.. perhaps even more elegant would be to put the .sb2config one directory below the root and in that .sb2config there would be path to the root12:31
therilSo the magic still works but it doesn't clutter the rootfs12:31
lle2theril: that wouldn't gain you anything12:31
timelyxconfig files should not be visible in the environment system12:31
lle2theril: I want to have multiple roots12:31
timelyxideally an app running in a scratchbox should not be able to figure out it's in scratchbox :)12:32
lle2theril: just do it so that the .sb2config parameters can be defined in .sb2rc as well12:32
therillle2: Yes, but you'd have like sb2/root1 sb2/root2 and sb2/.sb2config.root1 (or something like that) and when sb2 is run from inside sb2/root1 it would find the .sb2config.root1 from sb2/12:33
lle2theril: I don't run sb2 from inside the buildroot12:33
therilAnd also it would have sb2/.sb2config.root2 etc12:33
timelyxlle2: got sb2 sources handy?12:33
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therillle2: I do ;)12:33
lle2timelyx: http://freedesktop.org/Software/sbox212:33
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timelyxlle2: i mean to make changes12:33
timelyxi don't know where my secureid is, so i figure i'll tell you the patch here12:34
lle2timelyx: uh, no, not now, I'm selling my PCs :)12:34
timelyxand you fix it while i wait12:34
timelyx!?@12:34
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lle2timelyx: getting rid of everything, even the mac mini12:34
timelyxbah, i'll write the general patch here, and you can pull it from the irc logs later :)12:35
`0660are you turning into a monk?12:35
timelyxpreload/sb_exec.c12:35
timelyxdo_exec(...)12:35
lle2`0660: something along those lines12:35
lle2timelyx: I think I fixed that already12:35
timelyxlle2: you fixed the strdup?12:35
`0660cool :)12:35
timelyxerrr basename()12:35
JaffaMorning, all12:36
lle2timelyx: yeah, maybe12:36
`0660maybe you have a burnout?12:36
lle2`0660: no, maybe I had too many f'ing pcs that made my apartment look like a hosting facility12:36
`0660:)12:37
`0660how many are you going to keep? :)12:37
lle2`0660: just two tiny laptops12:37
therillle2: Are you going to sell the stuff?12:38
lle2theril: sold already, unless you're interested in a slightly whining 17" lcd12:39
lle2theril: it's not too bad, makes this annoying little sound when there's no signal12:39
therillle2: Hmm.. I could be12:40
therilI'm planning to get rid of my TV12:40
lle2theril: if you come and pick it up, you can get it for the low price of one good finnish beer12:41
lle2theril: one dead pixel12:41
therilOK. Which beer is the good one?12:42
lle2theril: koff!12:42
therilOK, if it has more than that, I'll take the beer back12:42
lle2theril: sure, I'll return it if it comes to that12:43
JaffaAnyone know of any full-screen, pretty, child-friendly URL/app launchers for XP? Something a bit like Apple's Front Row and/or their dock.12:45
timelyxjust buy an iphone w/o a sim card :)12:47
therilHmm.. has anybody got composite working on N800?12:48
therilI read some slides that said it's working on sardine and thought of backporting its xserver and now when I got the sources, they are the same as in bora12:49
therilAnd config has composite disabled12:49
therilAnd building with the flag fails12:49
lle2useful12:49
Jaffatimelyx: this is for an old ThinkPad being used by Jaffa Jr ;-)12:49
therilhttp://www.slideshare.net/jobi/xcomposite-on-internet-tables12:51
timelyxhttp://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=286201&cid=2043786512:51
theril"Already in sardine, will come with chinook". Yeah right12:51
* timelyx shrugs12:54
therilAnd the damned composite compiling fails on wrong arguments given to libtool (two libraries on row without spaces, like ../foo.a../bar.la)12:55
therilAnd of course it has some autogenerated autogeneration stuff so no human being can debug them12:55
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timelyxthat's a feature12:59
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timelyxwww.maemo.com ??13:01
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therilWhy the hell people even use autotools?13:03
pupnikbecause build environments differ?13:04
timelyxto make life difficult :). especially to ensure that if people upgrade autotools, builds will fail13:04
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pupniki've been confused about that stuff since the early 90s13:04
pupnikrun-around in circles waving hands in the air and hollering and then running into the wall confused13:05
therilIts a lot easier to hand write the magic in Makefile than fight with autohell13:05
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pupnikwell it's been working fairly well for me13:06
pupniklately13:06
therilHack on cludge on hack13:07
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timelyxok. all products in bugs.maemo.org are things i want to exist13:13
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timelyxthat only leaves a couple of components that should die13:13
timelyxhelpwanted, there are 11 "applications:core", 8 "applications:hardware" and 12 "applications:User interface and graphics and style"13:14
therilHas there been any developments with the memory card corruption bug?13:16
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therilI don't dare to put my card in the device until its fixed :(13:17
timelyxno13:17
therilI heard that the cause is now known though13:18
timelyxreally?13:18
lle2yes13:18
therilIf you have access to internal bugzilla, there's probably more info13:19
timelyxi'd have to find my password13:19
timelyxwhich is more trouble than it's worth13:19
therilBut AFAIK the corruption happens when the device goes to power saving mode13:19
timelyxlle2: why isn't useful information in the public bugzilla?13:19
lle2timelyx: no idea13:19
therilIf I was in charge, all bugs would be in the public bugzilla13:20
timelyxtheril: this bug is in the public bugzilla13:20
timelyxwrong problem13:20
timelyxthe trick is getting all people to actually *use* the public bugzilla13:21
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timelyxand not, e.g. email, cubical hopping, or another bug tracker13:21
therilHmm.. my login to internal bugzilla is still working :)13:21
timelyxi can fix that for you :)13:21
therilWhy did I say anything :P13:22
timelyxi'd have to figure out who you are, and i'm way too lazy to do that13:22
therilMaybe I could talk about extending my NDA to keep the login13:23
lle2just disable access for everybody13:23
timelyxtheril: you couldn't talk to me about it :)13:23
timelyxbut it sounds like a good idea13:23
timelyxdo any of you know anything about gtk/hildon?13:24
timelyxdo windows have "names"?13:24
lle2I thought bugzilla accounts couldn't be deleted if they have bugs on them13:24
therilI heard that there are some community developers with access there13:24
lle2so just file a few13:24
timelyxlle2: disabled != delete13:24
lle2hmph, details, details13:25
timelyxdisabled = bugzilla refuses to let you login13:25
theriltimelyx: What kind of names? They do have window IDs13:25
timelyxtheril: is that a consistent human readable string that's likely to be unique per app13:25
timelyxbut consistent per app across app instances?13:25
lle2"bob"13:25
timelyxsounds good13:26
timelyxwhat happens if i want two "bob" windows?13:26
lle2"bob2"13:26
lle2that's what happened to me13:26
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timelyxbob2 won't work very well13:27
theriltimelyx: Hmm.. I don't think so. But you can set XProperty to the window13:28
therilThere is a function to set application's name in glib, but it may be just related to debugging output etc13:29
timelyxapplication names are useless13:30
timelyxapplications i care about have multiple window classes13:30
timelyxand yes, i know about the xproperties13:30
timelyxgecko tries (and probably fails miserably, it typically does...) to use them13:30
therilWhy would you need the name?13:30
timelyxpersisting window state13:30
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timelyxbecause some annoying free thinker thinks that maemo sucks13:31
timelyx(maemo does suck, but solving the problems he cares about is non-trivial)13:31
lle2maemo can't suck, it's not a physical entity13:31
timelyxmaemo as deployed in each product i can buy and or flash sucks13:31
timelyxis that acceptable?13:32
lle2maemo as manifested in the form of ITOS sucks13:32
lle2although even that's backwards13:32
theriltimelyx: So that every time window opens, it opens to same place or something like that?13:32
timelyxtheril: typically it has the same toolbar state13:32
timelyxor the same column order/sort, or widths13:33
therilI think that's more of the programs concern13:33
therilprogram's13:33
timelyxwell, err13:33
timelyxhe claims and in a way he's right that it's a platform bug13:34
timelyxthe fact is, if programmers have to do things, they won't, or at least they won't consistently13:34
therilI think that GTK+ API is too low level to even enable that13:34
lle2surely there must be a way to give a window a name?13:35
therilI'm not aware of system that would be needed for this13:35
timelyxlle2: i asked first =b13:35
lle2timelyx: :D13:36
therilThat it would detect that a window is instance of some widget configuration13:36
lle2but couldn't gtk just use X to do the dirty work?13:36
lle2whaat?13:36
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therilWhat is the common denominator with two instances of "same" window?13:37
lle2the name?13:37
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lle2or "class" or whatever they choose to call it13:38
therilYes, but GTK doesn't force (or even allow) the program to specify that13:38
lle2uhhuh13:39
therilSo every program would have to be hacked to explicitly set the name using XProperty or something like that13:39
lle2I'm so glad I don't have to use gtk to do my work13:39
timelyxi'd love to get rid of gtk13:39
therilIs not that bad IMHO :)13:39
timelyxit's such a stupid system upon which to build a platform13:39
timelyxtheril: no, it's much worse13:39
lle2maybe we shouldn't get rid of it, just build up something more sane on the side13:40
timelyxlle2: gecko13:40
lle2that integrates well with it13:40
therilThe abstraction level is a bit wrong though, but it makes a fine low level widget set13:40
timelyxxul based applications13:40
therilgecko is a pile of hack13:40
timelyxthey scale, they flex, they persist13:40
timelyxthree things the maemo platform doesn't do13:41
lle2maemo scales, in man months13:41
timelyxoh, and generally, gecko doesn't kill itself when it runs out of memory13:41
therilThey could be easily incorporated in the API13:41
timelyxlle2: that's something like 200 man months13:41
therilJust force programmer to set window name when creating a HildonWindow13:42
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therilAnd properly coded GTK apps do scale13:42
lle2yeah, more maemo specific crap will solve the problem13:42
timelyx++lle213:42
timelyxusing Gazpacho (?) might solve the problem13:43
timelyxsince it's basically getting rid of C initializers and using an xml dialect (xul done w/ gtk instead)13:43
therilI'm not too big a fan of that kind of stuff13:43
therilYou'll soon end up with having a gecko (which IMO isn't very good thing)13:44
therilBut a API like that over GTK would be good13:44
timelyxtheril: gazpacho is basically yet another gecko13:44
timelyxwhich is silly13:44
* timelyx wishes maemo would give up and just move to gecko13:44
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timelyxwe'd have a notes app that wouldn't suck13:45
timelyxwe'd have a chance at a mail app that didn't suck13:45
therilAFAIK gazpacho is yet another glade13:45
timelyxwe could make the ui designers actually write the UI instead of specifying it13:45
timelyxyeah, i originally wrote glade but replaced it w/ gazpacho13:45
therilAnd we'd have apps that take minutes to load13:45
timelyxi can't remember or understand the difference13:45
timelyxtheril: we have skype :)13:46
therilAnd 30Mb of javascript and XML loaded in the memory at all times13:46
timelyxbut actually, it becomes less of a problem if it's already loaded13:46
therilYeah, but the 30MB could be used to something more sane13:47
lle2like the current email client? :)13:47
timelyxtheoretically sure13:47
timelyxbut do you really trust nokia to manage that?13:47
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timelyxactually, at this point, i think you're likely to get the current email client :)13:47
therilWell maybe they'd make good use of a few of those 30 MBs :)13:48
timelyxpigs might fly13:48
timelyxwould you like a meta crawler with that?13:49
theriltimelyx: Have you done any gecko programming?13:49
timelyxtheril: only around 7 years13:49
timelyxthat's what i do for a living13:49
timelyxthat's why i'm working for nokia13:49
therilAnd you like the mess that's its architecture?13:49
timelyxin comparison to nokia/osso/maemo? absolutely13:49
timelyxi'm glad you asked ;-)13:50
therilI think the comparsion is more against GTK+ etc13:50
timelyxglib/gdk/gtk/gnome/hildon/dbus13:50
timelyxhow many cards did i miss in my house of cards?13:50
* timelyx blows and watches it collapse13:51
timelyxbut even ignoring all those layers13:51
therilIMHO putting that monster on a portable device is plain insane13:51
timelyxthe uis designed by/for mozilla.org are better than the junk shipped by nokia13:51
therilSo you compare the whole gecko to the separate libraries13:51
timelyxi'll compare it however13:52
timelyxi can compare nss(works) with libcst (POS)13:52
timelyxi can compare PSM(works) w/ certman (has to hack around libcst) and still won't always work13:52
therilHow about something like glib vs nsoldcludge, dbus vs the interface spec hacks etc13:52
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therilAnd I don't think gecko even has functionality that could be compared with dbus13:53
timelyxtheril: nspr v. glib? i don't mind, nspr works, is stable, and can be fairly safely used whereever13:53
therilSame for glib13:53
timelyxglib and nspr are fairly comprable13:54
therilyes13:54
timelyxdbus is basically a library guaranteed to enable your app to crash when the system runs out of memory13:54
timelyxi'm happy not to be forced to have such a library13:54
therilAnd doesn't gecko use GDK?13:54
timelyxit doesn't have to use gdk13:54
timelyxat some point i'm hoping for cairo-xlib13:54
therilBut it uses13:54
timelyxand on windows and osx and qnx and beos it certainly does not use gdk13:55
timelyxit only uses it on a handful of backwards platforms :)13:55
therilI think that apps should be free to crash when run out of memory13:55
timelyxsure13:55
timelyxbut they shouldn't be killed by libraries13:55
timelyxthere's a difference13:55
therilWorking around memory ending situations is IMO too complex for application level anyway13:55
timelyxif my app wants to crash or not crash when it runs out of memory, that should be its cohice13:55
timelyxit shouldn't be in a position where a fundamental system library will crash/kill the app13:56
timelyxyou think the system does better?13:56
timelyxyou're nuts.13:56
therilI don't usually even bother to check mallocs13:56
timelyxthe os is the thing that gets apps into the problem in the first place, and the only thing it can do to deal with it is go around shooting things13:57
timelyxthe os is *not* in a good, or even particularly useful place to make anything close to sane decisions13:57
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timelyxin 2006, the os decided that the only thing it could do when it ran out of memory was shoot alarmd13:57
therilI have yet to see program that manages handling out of memory really better than just shutting down13:58
timelyxafter it shot alarmd, it remembered it was supposed to run alarmd whenever alarmd died13:58
timelyxso, it went off and started it again13:58
timelyxand then it shot it again13:58
timelyxthis repeats13:58
timelyxthey eventually did fix that one ...13:58
timelyxbut integrating sanity into the os is clearly rocket science13:59
lle2I think the memory use of apps should be compartmentalized, and localise the killing to the box that is actually overflowing instead of going out and killing some random process13:59
therilThe D-Bus implementation admittedly isn't very great13:59
timelyxlle2: what do you do when the user is annoying and tries to build make -j 100 on a box?13:59
timelyxno one specific process uses a lot of memory13:59
timelyxnow sure, you could claim a job pool is14:00
timelyxi'd claim it's the X server :)14:00
therilI vote for gecko14:00
timelyxor init :)14:00
theril:P14:00
lle2timelyx: those processes would sit in the "misc" box which gets only a limited chunk to be split among them14:00
timelyxlle2: but the main problem w/ shooting the biggest consumer14:00
timelyxis that on average you shoot the app the user was actually  *using*14:00
lle2timelyx: and X resource allocations should be taken into account14:00
timelyxnamely, the web browser or media player14:01
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lle2timelyx: I'm not shooting the biggest user, as long as it stays within its boundaries, it will live14:01
timelyxlle2: best way to set the boundaries is by actually returning NULL for alloc failures14:01
timelyxand letting the app deal14:01
timelyxeverything else is just bad hacks14:02
timelyxthat don't work14:02
lle2timelyx: yes, that would be returned when the boundary is exceeded14:02
therilPrograms should tell the OS how much memory they need and after the process tries to allocate more, it's shut down14:02
timelyxtheril: how much does a web browser need?14:02
timelyxanswer: as much as the user demands the browser need14:02
theriltimelyx: A lot less than it uses now14:02
lle2theril: it needs to be more dynamic than that14:02
therillle2: Of course, but something in those lines14:02
timelyxtheril: user decides to open 100 very heavy web pages14:02
timelyxuser expects them all to be alive and fully functional14:03
lle2timelyx: the user is then told that's not possible14:03
timelyx(user is crazy, but whatever)14:03
timelyxlle2: i'd love to14:03
timelyxlle2: theril wants the app to die instead14:03
lle2timelyx: yup, murderous bastard14:03
timelyxyup14:03
timelyxor at least bloodthirsy14:03
timelyxs/y/yt14:04
timelyxarg14:04
timelyxor at least bloodthirsty14:04
therilI'd rather let my application die than to try to write a desperate attempt in rescuing it14:04
timelyxtheril: fwiw, i'd rather not let users exceed 4 windows14:04
timelyxbut i atm have no budget for making such a ue14:04
timelyxs/e$/i/14:04
sp3000set a tax on windows :P14:04
lle2theril: the browser must be able to deal with that, it's just bad form to crash if you go to a massive slashdot comment page or something14:04
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therilLet them have all the windows they want, but write the DOM to HD and let it rerender it when needed14:05
therillle2: Yes, but I'm talking from developers' point of view14:05
lle2theril: there's no space for that on the flash, besides that would suck anyway14:05
therilSo the better solution is just to spam the memory until it ends?14:06
timelyxtheril: for kicks, consider: http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/1024-768.html14:06
timelyxtheril: it's a start14:06
timelyxideally gecko will recognize that it can drop an image that's not currently visible14:06
timelyxand replace it w/ one that it needs to show *now*14:06
timelyxtheril: anyway, try loading that page14:06
timelyxbutt be warned, i killed a Samsung Q1 w/ that last year14:06
theriltimelyx: I loaded it in lynx :P14:06
timelyxand i've killed various unix boxes in the past14:07
timelyxthe Q1 bluescreened, unix boxes panic14:07
timelyxor the xserver gets killed, which is equally amusing14:07
timelyxtheril: anyway, how do you "render" that page?14:08
timelyxspecifically, user loads the page and jumps to the bottom14:08
timelyxhow do you know where the "bottom" is?14:08
timelyxhrm, wrong url14:08
therilTrue, I got the point14:08
timelyxsorry, http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html14:08
timelyxthat's the right url14:08
therilBut then we'll get to the subject of how much HTML sucks14:09
* timelyx shrugs14:09
timelyxi have to live with it14:09
lle2browser is special of the apps that we have on the device14:09
timelyxi'd rather you not kill me over it14:09
timelyxlle2: mail and media player are not too far from it14:09
lle2maybe email is a second one14:09
timelyxrss reader too14:09
lle2kill that14:09
timelyxdepending on how stupid you make them14:09
therilWell, I'm sort of pro-euthanasia14:09
timelyxlle2: gladly :)14:09
timelyxanyway, yeah, the browser is special14:10
timelyxmost of the other apps have little excuse14:10
timelyxconsider images which seems to get sick of the themes graphics directories :)14:10
timelyxit sorta goes off and hangs itself14:11
timelyxnote: it is possible for browser to actually deal w/ that page properly14:11
timelyxand in fact, it doesn't do /such/ a bad job today in gecko, although it can do a better one14:11
timelyxactually, all things considered, that page is tame, albeit slightly overweight14:11
theriltimelyx: Couldn't that be handled by just downloading size of the images and rendering empty boxes in place of them?14:11
timelyxtheril: no14:12
timelyxyou need to know if the image is valid14:12
timelyxwhich requires decoding it start to finish14:12
timelyxbecause if it's corrupt you're required to replace it14:12
therilBy some spec?14:12
timelyxoh, and what happens if the image is dynamically changing between corrupt and not corrupt14:12
timelyxtheril: html spec, yes14:12
therilWell, I'd say fuck you to that14:13
timelyxnow, you could go off and download each one in turn, and determine its size and then discard it14:13
timelyxand then pray that the image doesn't change14:13
timelyxwhich i'm fine w/ doing14:13
timelyxbut if you're on GPRS and paying by the byte, you /might/ not appreciate that :)14:13
timelyxactually, at 100+mb for the entire directory, you will never appreciate that page if you pay by the byte :)14:13
therilIf I were to write a browser (that nobody would use :P), it would throw a parse error on corrupt data just like any other sane parser does14:14
timelyxno one would use it, it'd render maybe 5 pages14:14
therilIt would also ease lots of the pain in creating the pages14:14
timelyxand i'm not sure which sort of corrupt data you're talking about14:15
therilYes, but that's how it should work14:15
theriltimelyx: Any14:15
timelyxcorrupt images throw dom events14:15
timelyxwhich web pages can react to :)14:15
timelyxby e.g. changing the image location ...14:15
timelyxsee... users are annoying, they expect web pages and web browsers to self correct14:15
therilWhy the hell should corrupt images be supopported?14:15
timelyxoffering them something instead of an error14:15
timelyxwhat do you mean "supported"?14:16
timelyxif an image is corrupt, you get a dom event and the image is replaced14:16
therilThat browser should do anything else than stop rendering when one is encountered14:16
timelyx??14:16
timelyxthe browser does lots of other things14:16
timelyxbut the web app might want to pick an alternate image if the one it got from some server is broken14:16
timelyxthe browser isn't a program, it's a platform14:17
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therilWould you like GCC to start quessing stuff (which may or may not be wrong) for you when you have incorrect syntax?14:17
timelyxthe web app is the program, and it's the browser's job to offer the web app full flexibility14:17
timelyxtheril: you're confused14:17
timelyxweb browsers aren't compilers14:17
timelyxthey're translators14:17
therilWhat's the difference?14:18
_Monkeythe difference is Archos TI chip is more powerfull DSP14:18
timelyxand yes, when i speak through an interpreter, i want feedback so i can try to pick another explanation if the translator can't figure out what i'm saying14:18
sp3000that'd be an interesting feature, auto-search for image based on page text content when you see a broken image14:18
sp3000it could get psychedelic14:18
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timelyx_Monkey forget the difference14:18
_Monkeytimelyx: I forgot difference14:18
timelyx_Monkey the difference is <reply>14:18
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.14:18
lle2theril: compilers are used by programmers, browsers are supposed to eat random crap from real people14:19
timelyxusers have higher expectations than programmers14:20
timelyxoh, and they have money14:20
lle2that helps too14:20
timelyxand they vote with their wallets14:20
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timelyxprogrammers either know not to use gcc or don't have a choice14:20
timelyx:)14:20
therilSo everybody has to suffer so that any moron can spit crap from Frontpage that should be rendered fine?14:23
timelyxdefine suffer14:24
timelyxbut sure14:24
therilI don't think that people who don't know HTML write HTML anymore14:24
timelyxyou clearly don't browse the web14:24
therilI think the official definition of suffering is to get any non-trivial website working with all browsers14:24
timelyxor you don't use anything interesting to check for web quality14:24
timelyxbecause it's more important that i can get access to poorly written and unmaintained content than that you have some pristine value14:25
therilAnd people would learn to write HTML if the parser/browser would just spit a parse error14:25
* timelyx chuckles14:25
timelyxchicken, meet egg14:25
timelyxand no, they won't14:25
timelyxvalidator.w3.org exists14:25
timelyxextensions exist to integrate it14:25
timelyxmost decent web design toolsets include some sort of validator14:26
therilYeah, lets drag some 1985 weight just to not to have to deal with chicken-egg14:26
therilYes, but because the browser renders badly formatted stuff, the validator is essentially useless14:26
timelyxhttp://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmaemo.org&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=014:27
therilAnd also as long as same HTML is rendered differently by browsers (especially with the current extent)14:27
timelyxhttp://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmaemo.org%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=XHTML+1.0+Transitional&group=014:27
theriltimelyx: That is useless14:28
timelyxtheril: what about it?14:28
therilAs long as browsers accept to render that, that has no importance at all14:28
theriltimelyx: Validating the code14:28
timelyxit's basic web 101, include ALT tags for all images14:28
timelyxmaemo.org can't even get that right on their main apge14:28
timelyxs/apg/pag14:28
therilAnd that basic web 101 is idiocy14:29
* timelyx shrugs14:29
timelyxyou were the fool using lynx14:29
timelyxor was it links?14:29
therilI use both from time to time14:29
therilBut for me it doesn't matter if it says [IMG] or "Image of cat"14:30
timelyxdon't go complaining about me complaining about lack of alt tags when you use multiple browsers who benefit from it14:30
timelyxthat's because you don't care about content14:30
timelyxwhich makes you a user i don't need to support14:30
timelyxusers care about content14:30
timelyxthat's why they browse the web14:30
therilYes, but I've done years of web development and demanding alt is just idiotic14:30
therilAsk how many cares about the freaking alt-text14:31
timelyxhow often have you been sued under sec508?14:31
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timelyxsp3000: did i get the number right?14:31
therilNever14:31
sp3000probaby14:32
sp3000l14:32
timelyxtheril: try being blind for a while14:32
lle2theril: the only one suffering is the poor programmer writing the browser14:32
timelyxit should open your eyes when you're done14:32
lle2theril: nobody eles cares how bad things are, as long as it works14:32
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theriltimelyx: I do understand the accessibility issue, but forcing the alt tag doesn't solve it the least14:33
Jaffa"Poor programmer" writing the browser? Spare me (apologies to timelyx)14:33
timelyxit's a start14:33
Jaffatimelyx++14:33
therilWell, forcing the alt would be ok, if CSS wouldn't be such crappy14:33
* timelyx doesn't follow14:34
therilSo that you'd have to use the img-tag only for "content" images14:34
JaffaCSS is fine - it's idiotic web designers using images for text that cause problems in the CSS/no images combo14:34
therilJaffa: CSS is far from fine14:34
timelyxtheril: you mean if people could use css to make a page that required a 10000x9000 cnavas size?14:34
timelyxs/cna/can/14:34
infobottimelyx meant: theril: you mean if people could use css to make a page that required a 10000x9000 canvas size?14:34
timelyxoh wait, they can14:34
timelyxi'm not sure how that helps matters14:35
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Jaffatheril: CSS is fine in the situation you're describing. I'm well aware of all the limitations of CSS, having been fighting with IE6 yesterday14:35
timelyxin fact, that makes life difficult for embedders (a hat i get to wear this year)14:35
theriltimelyx: So that you could really put content in the HTML and formatting in CSS14:35
timelyxtheril: if people actually used css for formatting14:35
timelyxi'd be in much worse shape14:35
timelyxi'd have to figure out what to do w/ pages such as the one i described14:35
theriltimelyx: I do as much as I can14:38
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therilWell, the CSS spec sucks for both HTML and browser developers14:39
timelyxhildon is worse :)14:39
therilFloating mode has to be abused to get block elements side by side etc14:39
therilHildon is about 10000x better than HTML/CSS specwise at least14:40
lle2very hard to compare14:40
lle2I can write a simple webpage14:41
lle2I failed to write a simple hildon app when I tried14:41
lle2I didn't follow any instructions for either feat14:41
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lle2I find doing it using plain xlib is easier, but that's just me14:43
timelyxhildon doesn't have a spec14:43
timelyxand it changes yearly14:43
timelyxplus you need to recompile every 6 months14:44
timelyxnone of these are better14:44
timelyxxlib is better14:44
therilYou are insane14:44
timelyxi care about having a product that doesn't require a rewrite every six months14:44
timelyxjust because someone got clever and decided to break apis14:44
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timelyxsomeone here have a normal gtk app w/ a scrollbar handy?14:55
lle2theril: when are you going to pick up the monitor?14:55
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therillle2: Where can I pick it up from?15:00
timelyxhttp://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=286139&cid=2043951315:01
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tkolle2: comparing a webpage to an application is not really interesting. it's like comparing a leaflet to tv-series15:24
lle2tko: that's why I said it's hard to compare15:24
tkoor whatever bad analogy you'd want to use15:24
tkoright15:24
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tkotimelyx: so how's the mozilla xlib/motif backend going? (speaking of stable APIs...)15:25
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therilDoes anybody know where I could get an adapter for N800 which would split the 3-pole audio plug to separate input and output plugs?15:32
therilI couldn't even find a handsfree with wires (and don't want to destroy the one that came with the device)15:33
therilOr even just a 3-pole jack15:34
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`0660theril, i take you mean left and right channel?15:51
timelyx`0660: he means mic and headset15:52
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`0660hmm, is it possible?15:53
timelyxoh man15:57
* timelyx curses15:57
timelyxosso sucks15:58
tkowhat did it do this time?16:01
timelyxthe contacts status bar item is a sym link to the contacts task navigator item16:01
timelyxso in order to disable the task navigator item and get the status bar item16:02
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timelyxit isn't sufficient to delete or rename the task navigator item16:02
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timelyxyou must actually move it to statusbar16:02
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timelyxand then of course, it doesn't actually work16:02
timelyxlet's not forget that detail16:03
* timelyx gives up16:03
timelyxok, i'm down to two components16:09
timelyxpeople really don't want to help?16:09
pupnikwhat? sorry i want to help16:10
timelyxbugs.maemo.org, query applications:hardware or applications:core16:11
timelyxmove the bugs to anywhere else16:11
pupnikok16:11
timelyxpreferably where they best belong16:11
timelyxfor hardware, misdirected:nokia is often correct16:11
timelyxalthough sometimes systemsoftware:(xserver/dsme/...) is better16:11
timelyxfor core, desktop/ or systemsoftware/ are probably best16:11
timelyxi have a long un posted comment for 126216:12
pupnikO_o16:12
sp3000https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?product=Applications&component=Core&component=Hardware16:12
pupnikok i'll schedule a block here - 19:00-21:00 CET16:13
timelyxsp3000: hrm..16:13
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timelyxsp3000: timely dcc?16:15
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sp3000I usually give up on dcc16:16
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timelyxtry it16:16
* sp3000 looks for an irssi manual16:16
timelyx /dcc chat victim16:16
sp3000it doesn't get through the proxy to cz16:17
timelyx?16:17
timelyxyou're proxying chatzilla?16:17
sp3000cz talks to irssi-proxy16:17
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timelyxah16:18
timelyxok, lemme know if that looks ok16:18
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Blacksitohola16:28
_Monkeyhey, Blacksito16:28
Blacksitohi _Monkey16:28
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lle2theril: hello, so are you coming?16:48
therillle2: How are you home today?16:48
lle2theril: right now, and I'm not going anywhere16:48
therilI'll have to finish one Linux installation first16:48
lle2x)16:48
therillle2: OK, I'll try to come before 19:0016:49
lle2theril: cool, you got my address?16:50
therilOh, do you have a box for it or should I bring something myself (I'm coming by bus)16:50
lle2no box, sorry16:50
therillle2: I *had* it, but I don't have logging on and irssi got shut down when I pulled the power plug :P16:50
therilSo could you resend pleasE?16:51
lle2will do16:51
therilI'll come up with somekind of box16:51
lle2I think you'd manage even without one, it's in one piece16:52
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therilIt just may start raining by look of the clouds16:54
lle2that'll just add to the street credibility16:55
therilYeah, and a broken monitor :P16:56
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timelyxok. all gone17:03
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Blacksitoxhi17:21
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pupnikmade by a genuinely retarded guy17:29
pupnikwww.alternativetentacles.com/octopodes/483/u0HBOB9KbXNa1lR233g/Wesley_Willis-Rock_n_Roll_McDo.mp317:29
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LynoureHi, I hope you don't mind if I ask more device question than actual maemo one...18:12
LynoureI just got a N800 and the screen seems to get scratches very easily, so I'm considering a hard case and a screen protector. Recommendations?18:13
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lle2Lynoure: did you remove the film that it ships with?18:15
lle2I've /seriously/ punished some of those displays and I can't get them to scratch18:15
Lynourelle2: this was used... I see some layer on the screen, but a part of it (about 2mm) seems to go under the bevel at the top... so I thought it was the touch sensor layer and decided not to try remove it with force18:16
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lle2hmm, in the lower left corner there should be a "flap" that you can get it off from18:17
lle2maybe the original owner cut that off18:17
Lynoureno flap, whatsoever18:17
LynoureI wish I could show this, but no way I can get that good macro shot18:18
sp3000it's really easy to get smudges that look like scratches18:19
LynoureBut, when you guys look at the very edge of the screen, can you see a border about 1-2 mm from the edge?18:20
pupnikthe display coverings are made out of a chemical with a long name that i forget18:20
sp3000that said I do have a few scratches but the smudges usually win18:20
LynoureI really do not want to put force in removing something that should stay there...18:20
LynoureSo I need to first be sure it's something removable :)18:21
lle2sure I can see the edge of the whole lcd panel, but the covering shouldn't go underneath the case18:21
Lynourelle2: this edge is inside the lit area...18:22
Lynoureever so slightly18:22
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Lynoureand I can feel my fingernail running along it, if I try that. The scratches are definately scratches, or at least microfiber cloth would not remove them18:23
lle2hmm, maybe try it with something not too pointy but slim enough to fit there and try to lift it18:24
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lle2no way could I get a fingernail to the edge of the lcd, but that's mostly 'cause I ain't got any18:25
lle2btw, do the testing at the bottom middle of the screen, least used area ;)18:26
Lynourelle2: you could feel the same edge with an edge of a paper or business card, if it there18:27
Lynoures/it/it is18:27
lle2I only hit the metal edge of the lcd, under which the glass + ts films go18:28
lle2if you're not sure about it, just leave it. easiest way to break the lcd is to press with a sharp object near the edge18:29
LynoureI need to do something... now it gets a scratch every time I draw a line with a stylus, no matter how light touch I use18:30
lle2for sure those are not real scratches, I've hit one with a stylus so hard the stylus broke in pieces and there was no trace of it18:31
LynoureThat's why I asked recommendations for screen protectors18:31
Lynourelle2: how do you define real scratches? I just rubber them with microfiber for 20 seconds, and they still seem real enough18:31
Lynoures/rubber/brubbed18:32
Lynoure(typos, sorry)18:32
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lle2real scratch would be something you can feel when drawing a line across it with a stylus18:32
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Lynoureto me, real scratch is anything that I can see and feel on the screen, and that is not dirt. I wish they were18:34
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lle2I've had the n800 going around without any cover at all, for about 6months, and there are no scratches I could see when the backlight is on and it's showing something other than solid black18:35
LynoureI guess it must be then that the protective film is still on and it gets scratches easily... I'm waiting a verification from the ex-owner before pulling it off with a tape18:38
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lle2I've seen screens that went through 30 000 - 60 000 chinese characters to the same place by a robot and I have to look *very* carefully to see any sign of that load18:39
lle2sure it affects the electrical properties, but it's very difficult to see it visually18:40
LynoureThat's nice  to hear18:40
pupnikcool18:40
LynoureThen, once I get that thing off thing, I'll only need a case, and no protector18:41
pupnikwell as long as the protector is on, only the protector is getting scratched18:42
Lynourepupnik: yes, sounds so. I bet no pulling on the screen has been tested, though, so I hope this film is not too stickily on.18:43
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Lynourehttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4975 sounds like my story (minus the fact I never saw the tab)18:47
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Lynoureespecially this bit sums up why I was wondering about whether it was the touchfilm: " I've looked closely at the factory 'screen protector' - there's a strange tiny tab at the top that disappears under the plastic rim (top mid-right) - never removed it as I feared the screen protector may actually be the touchscreen film itself!"18:51
lle2we really should mark it with "remove before use"18:52
lle2in big bold opaque letters diagonally across the whole screen18:52
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LynoureGot it out now with the tape trick18:54
Lynoure:)18:54
lle2I bet that "protector" wears off pretty badly as it's only designed to protect the lcd during the manufacturing process18:55
lle2same thing as some people leave that film in place for their mobile phones, can hardly see anything through after couple of months18:56
Lynoureit seems many people managed to pull off the removal tab, but not the film18:57
lle2heh18:57
LynoureI'll have to post the trick to that thread. A lot safer than trying to press in a fingernail18:58
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LynoureThanks, all, again :)19:14
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robtaylorjumpula: hey, do you know if chinook will be moving the debian-etch devkit?20:07
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tsogah, i keep getting the "new version" message when starting pidgin. but its not available on the repos :(20:12
`0660try not start it :)20:13
tso:P20:14
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therillle2: The display is dead silent21:29
lle2?21:30
lle2no way21:30
therillle2: The display I "bought" from you21:30
therilDid you use DVI or VGA?21:30
lle2you've connected the power cable?21:30
lle2both21:30
therilYes21:30
lle2checked all the connections?21:30
lle2does it light up the orange led in the power button?21:31
therilNo, I mean that there's no extra sounds :P21:31
therilThe picture is ok :)21:31
lle2oh21:31
lle2man21:31
lle2I think I muted it from the menu21:33
lle2theril: check the menu thingy for something related to audio21:34
therilSo the sound comes from the speakers?21:34
lle2yes21:35
lle2or so I think21:35
lle2maybe it has some psychic interface21:35
therilOK. I'm not planning to use it anyway21:35
lle2it's better to keep it muted21:35
therilYeah, maybe it has something personal against you21:35
lle2I remember that it made hideous noise21:35
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therillle2: Do you know what the USB-port in the display is for?22:12
lle2theril: there is a usb port?22:16
therillle2: Yep, with a weird kind of connector22:17
therilLike one on some printers22:17
lle2no idea22:18
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