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| trewq | http://www.pandamailer.de/?bettel=pimbolli | 00:58 |
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| _Lucretia_ | is there a doc somewhere outlining how developers who want to sell apps can do this based on the fact that maemo is mostly gpl? thanks. | 00:59 |
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| jebba | _Lucretia_: i dont think there is a doc, but what specific concerns do you have? Are you doing a non-free app? Or a free app? | 01:00 |
| _Lucretia_ | nothing atm | 01:01 |
| _Lucretia_ | I'm looking into it | 01:01 |
| jebba | you can sell GPL apps, that's not prohibited. | 01:01 |
| _Lucretia_ | well, from what I know, if I make an app that links with gpl code I have to distribute my code, so I cannot see how this would work on ovi | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | you simply sell the app as normal. | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | And include in the app links to source. | 01:02 |
| jebba | _Lucretia_: ya, if you link to GPL code or use GPL code, you have to make your code under GPL as well. | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | int he package | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | GPL != LGPL tho | 01:02 |
| jebba | _Lucretia_: you should just do GPL software :) | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | If you are just making an app with gnu libraries to run on maemo - you will not - usually - have to make it GPL. | 01:03 |
| _Lucretia_ | and what's to stop another guy coming, taking the code, compiling and selling elsewhere? | 01:03 |
| SpeedEvil | nothing. | 01:03 |
| _Lucretia_ | exactly | 01:03 |
| jebba | well, they would have to provide the code as well. | 01:04 |
| SpeedEvil | For example - you can link your commercial app against glibc - and sell it without problems. | 01:04 |
| SpeedEvil | You cannot slightly modify mplayer, and sell it without distributing it as GPL though. | 01:04 |
| _Lucretia_ | so do all these apps for maemo come with source then? | 01:04 |
| jebba | _Lucretia_: fsf.org and gnu.org have tons of info about this. What they say applies 100% to maemo stuff. | 01:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Some do, some don't. | 01:04 |
| _Lucretia_ | k | 01:05 |
| _Lucretia_ | have to be careful with what I link with then | 01:05 |
| jebba | yes. | 01:05 |
| jebba | or just make your app GPL :) | 01:05 |
| * _Lucretia_ played with an n900 today and it actually impressed | 01:05 | |
| jebba | ya, is nice. But lots of closed stuff. | 01:05 |
| SpeedEvil | In short - if you are writing your own code, and just linking against LGPL libraries - you do not need to release any code. If you incorporate any GPL code - you pretty much always have to release it as GPL. | 01:05 |
| _Lucretia_ | jebba: would like to get out of my job at some point :D | 01:05 |
| _Lucretia_ | SpeedEvil: aye, just wondered if there were any caveats wrt maemo | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | LGPL is GPL for libraries - it's specifically designed to allow this. | 01:06 |
| _Lucretia_ | SpeedEvil: yup | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | Not really - maemo is pretty much a desktop OS. | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | To restate - if you can sell your program without releasing source legally on debian or ubuntu, you can sell it on maemo. | 01:07 |
| _Lucretia_ | k | 01:07 |
| _Lucretia_ | thanks guys | 01:07 |
| jebba | np | 01:07 |
| _Lucretia_ | thought as much | 01:07 |
| SpeedEvil | debian/ubuntu/windows | 01:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer | you can sell open source though aiui. GPL doen't void copyright | 01:47 |
| SpeedEvil | GPL and copyright are seperate, and merely because I've violated the GPL doesn't mean tehre is no copyright in my work. | 01:49 |
| SpeedEvil | So - for example - if I sell a slightly modified mplayer - I am in breach of the GPL - however you cannot simply redistribute my work. | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if I GPLd a own work with some alien parts, I still keep full copyright aiui. It's not legal to simply modify the app name and branding and then sell it for anybody. Especially when he/she is claiming it's his own work | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | also see RHEL, SLES etc | 01:55 |
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| jebba | DocScrutinizer, huh? I can download (for example), audacity, rename it "jebbas rad audio editor: JRAE" and then sell it just like that (as long as i distribute the code). | 01:58 |
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| SpeedEvil | yes. | 02:02 |
| _Lucretia_ | hmm, the gui installer no longer exists? | 02:08 |
| _Lucretia_ | actually, http://repository.maemo.org/ doesn't exist | 02:11 |
| SpeedEvil | it's broken | 02:12 |
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| SpeedEvil | Normal service will be resumed - when it's not. | 02:12 |
| jebba | _Lucretia_: you can use this mirror for now: http://espejo.freemoe.org/ | 02:12 |
| _Lucretia_ | ta | 02:12 |
| _Lucretia_ | jebba: erm, to install the sdk on peecee? | 02:13 |
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| _Lucretia_ | ah ha! | 02:13 |
| jebba | _Lucretia_: ya, but you'll have to do a custom sources.list for the installer and use the -a option (iirc). | 02:13 |
| _Lucretia_ | what happened to the offical stuff? just down? | 02:14 |
| jebba | Things are much more painful when services don't work :( Unfortunately that's pretty much been the norm. | 02:14 |
| _Lucretia_ | well, that don't bode well | 02:15 |
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| _Lucretia_ | jebba: do I just use __url=http://espejo.freemoe.org/ ? | 03:21 |
| _Lucretia_ | cos it doesnt work | 03:26 |
| _Lucretia_ | or | 03:29 |
| _Lucretia_ | nope, doesnt work | 03:30 |
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| woglinde_ | re jebba | 03:38 |
| _Lucretia_ | oh did you go somewhere? | 03:41 |
| _Lucretia_ | jebba: __url=http://espejo.freemoe.org/ is failing to work here | 03:41 |
| _Lucretia_ | I'm missing something i know | 03:41 |
| jebba | my net conneciton here is quite crap. | 03:43 |
| jebba | _Lucretia_: what you trying to do? Install SDK or on your N900. Cuz it's working for sure for others because I have 100Mbit pegged right now.... | 03:43 |
| _Lucretia_ | install on pc | 03:44 |
| _Lucretia_ | sdk | 03:44 |
| _Lucretia_ | http://pastebin.com/m697350b6 | 03:45 |
| _Lucretia_ | log | 03:45 |
| jebba | http://espejo.freemoe.org/stable/5.0//armel/maemo-sdk-rootstrap_5.0_armel.tgz is wrong. You need: | 03:49 |
| jebba | http://espejo.freemoe.org/repository.maemo.org/stable/5.0//armel/maemo-sdk-rootstrap_5.0_armel.tgz | 03:49 |
| _Lucretia_ | ahhh | 03:50 |
| _Lucretia_ | thanks | 03:50 |
| _Lucretia_ | do i need to pass new sources.lst files to that script? | 03:51 |
| _Lucretia_ | balls: E: Downloaded armel rootstrap file failed integrity test. | 03:53 |
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| _Lucretia_ | your md5sums are wrong maybe? | 03:59 |
| _Lucretia_ | I've just downloaded the archive and md5'd it, it's different to yours | 04:00 |
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| Orkut | Hello | 04:30 |
| Orkut | just wondering... #maemo channel locked? | 04:31 |
| Orkut | second question (not really devel related...) how do I connect with a n900 to a wpa protected wifi network without wpa_supplicant? | 04:31 |
| SpeedEvil | use the shiny network setup wizard? | 04:32 |
| smps | Orkut, i do that from network setup | 04:32 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, thanks, but thats exactly what I don't want to do... | 04:32 |
| smps | Orkut, setting -> internet connections | 04:32 |
| Orkut | I need to run some tests and do it in console | 04:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: k | 04:33 |
| smps | whats problem then ? | 04:33 |
| Orkut | smps, I need to do it in console... | 04:33 |
| Orkut | there's no special problem, actually, besides the fact that I can't understand how to pair to a network without wpa_supplicant... | 04:34 |
| Orkut | what does maemo use? | 04:34 |
| SpeedEvil | I think it's built into the GUI program | 04:34 |
| SpeedEvil | or I may have misunderstood my stracings | 04:34 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil ... OH! | 04:34 |
| SpeedEvil | Or forgotten stuff | 04:34 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, that's SUPER BAD ;) | 04:34 |
| SpeedEvil | I recall it's eitehr built in - or there is no simple command line client | 04:35 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, is there a way to start a specific IAP via command line? | 04:35 |
| Orkut | (I'll make things clearer... I am trying a simple script that has to start the connection, do something, close the connection, do something else, then finally start it again...) | 04:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: I haven't found one. | 04:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Though admittedly I only spent a few mins looking. | 04:37 |
| SpeedEvil | I was wanting to bring up 3g and phone so I could use a socks proxy on the phone over wifi to hit the 3g internet | 04:38 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, could you pont me to the src of the "shiny little console program?" | 04:38 |
| villager | you'd probably have to send a message to icd via dbus | 04:38 |
| SpeedEvil | ? | 04:38 |
| SpeedEvil | there isn't one | 04:38 |
| Orkut | is it nokia proprietary? | 04:39 |
| SpeedEvil | IIRC wlancontd | 04:40 |
| SpeedEvil | maybe | 04:40 |
| SpeedEvil | but I don't know about that | 04:40 |
| Orkut | (I also need to understand WHY this thing decides that I can't have 2 connections at the same time... like gprs and wifi...) | 04:41 |
| Orkut | I'll try to give it a look... | 04:41 |
| SpeedEvil | cd /etc;grep -i -r wlan . | 04:41 |
| SpeedEvil | looks interesting | 04:42 |
| Orkut | looks messy ;) | 04:43 |
| villager | there can only be one default route! one route to rule 'em all... | 04:46 |
| Orkut | villager, I disagree. | 04:46 |
| Orkut | and, besides, who said a connection has to setup a default route? | 04:46 |
| Orkut | (oh, btw, I currently have 2 default routes on my n900) ;) | 04:47 |
| villager | 2 default routes rarely makes both the actual default... only one of them is used by default... | 04:48 |
| villager | I think icd only cares about what your current route to the internet it, it doesn't really stop you from configuring interfaces manually | 04:48 |
| smps | Orkut, have you installed iputils ? | 04:48 |
| Orkut | villager, and here we are at my point... | 04:48 |
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| Orkut | suppose I have gprs0 up and running, | 04:49 |
| jebba | 2 *default* routes? What's your output of `route -n` look like Orkut? | 04:49 |
| Orkut | I need to start wlan0 | 04:49 |
| Orkut | (jebba, hold on) | 04:49 |
| Orkut | wlan0 is in WPA | 04:49 |
| Orkut | how do I connecto to wifi without loosing gprs0 ? | 04:49 |
| SpeedEvil | a default route to 10.0.0.* and a default route with a lower prio to the rest makes sense. | 04:50 |
| villager | presumably a future icd will allow multiple connections, in order to support mms | 04:50 |
| Orkut | I'll show you in a second the 2 routes... | 04:50 |
| jebba | wtf are you on about? How are you doing these lower prio default routes? | 04:50 |
| jebba | using BGP on your N900? ;) | 04:51 |
| smps | jebba, it is possible | 04:51 |
| Orkut | jebba, it all comes from a different thing, actually | 04:51 |
| smps | jebba, you have to maintain different route tables | 04:51 |
| Orkut | I'm kinda... hacking my telco ;) | 04:51 |
| Orkut | hold on | 04:51 |
| jebba | smps: ya, but that's not *default route*. Those are different routes to different networks. `route -n` speaks louder than words... | 04:52 |
| Orkut | jebba, be patient... | 04:52 |
| jebba | heh, this is a great hostname for a gateway: bottleneck.utdallas.edu. | 04:53 |
| Orkut | how do I take a screenshot of my n900? | 04:53 |
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| Orkut | if you want to see my route -n | 04:55 |
| Orkut | I need a screenshot thing ;) | 04:55 |
| villager | Orkut: by the way, exactly why would you want to connect to wlan0 without losing gprs, assuming you could reach internet through both anyway? and to which of them should internet traffic go? I suspect nokia just didn't see much of a reason to make a complicated network setup that nobody's going to see the need for | 04:56 |
| Orkut | because (thanks wlancond) my wifi is now down ;) | 04:56 |
| villager | Orkut: other than the mms thing, of course | 04:56 |
| Orkut | villager, I suppose that's WAY beyond nokias business ;) | 04:56 |
| Orkut | one reason? no internet on wlan? | 04:56 |
| Orkut | local machines I need to control? | 04:57 |
| Orkut | or, tethering? | 04:57 |
| Orkut | or... need more? | 04:57 |
| villager | Orkut: so you have wlan without internet? on wpa? | 04:57 |
| Orkut | come on, that's a really *stupid* objection, if I may dare... | 04:57 |
| villager | Orkut: what objection? | 04:58 |
| villager | Orkut: not sure what you mean | 04:58 |
| Orkut | villager, that my setup would be pointless... | 04:58 |
| smps | Orkut, i think screenshot is ctrl+shit+p | 04:58 |
| villager | Orkut: who said that? | 04:58 |
| smps | shift | 04:58 |
| Orkut | if you don't mind, I find it important for me... even thou nokia doesn't care | 04:58 |
| Orkut | smps, where is it saved? | 04:58 |
| villager | Orkut: you're saying nokia think your setup is pointless, and that it is an objection? | 04:59 |
| smps | should be somewhere in ~/MyDocs/ | 04:59 |
| villager | Orkut: and you didn't answer my question, you have a wlan without internet, on wpa? | 04:59 |
| Orkut | villager, yes, one wlan is with no gw, and has wpa | 04:59 |
| Orkut | with a cert, even... | 05:00 |
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| villager | Orkut: I guess nokia figured someone might build an app for such specialized setups then, it probably wasn't a primary design goal of theirs before the first rollout in any case... | 05:02 |
| Orkut | that's fine | 05:03 |
| villager | Orkut: though I still don't understand what you mean by objection, since nokia hasn't stopped anyone | 05:03 |
| Orkut | but I still think it could be done | 05:03 |
| Orkut | villager, your objection, not nokias... | 05:03 |
| villager | Orkut: me? now I'm really confused | 05:03 |
| Orkut | villager, you were kinda saying it was a pointless setup I was trying... (if I understood correctly) | 05:04 |
| villager | Orkut: I can't recall saying that | 05:04 |
| smps | Orkut, /home/user/MyDocs/.images/Screenshots | 05:05 |
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| Orkut | ok | 05:06 |
| Orkut | have the screenshot, if you want, I can upload it somewhere | 05:06 |
| smps | yes do it | 05:07 |
| villager | Orkut: I do my tethering with usbnet or bluetooth, beyond that is specialized stuff that may as well be done with specialized tools, I said nokia may have seen no reason to put that on a consumer device by default, but I've never said that setup itself is pointless or anything, I've dealt with many networks | 05:08 |
| Orkut | http://temp.cappelleri.net/ | 05:09 |
| Orkut | ther u go | 05:09 |
| Orkut | tell me when u're done, so I delete the vhost... | 05:10 |
| Orkut | and, now, let's get back to the point... | 05:10 |
| Orkut | suppose I want to share my gprs0 over wlan | 05:10 |
| Orkut | would this be so complicated? | 05:10 |
| Orkut | sorry | 05:10 |
| Orkut | I mean, would it be so crazy? | 05:10 |
| villager | I think the pc-connectivity guys are trying to build apps for that | 05:10 |
| Orkut | (it IS darn complicated with n900) ;) | 05:10 |
| Orkut | villager, yes, they are... | 05:11 |
| Orkut | but I am thinking of other stuff... | 05:11 |
| Orkut | my setup is kinda ... particular... I know what I need it for ;) | 05:11 |
| Orkut | I was just wondering if there was a tool to pair with a wpa wifi... | 05:11 |
| Orkut | and it looks like there's not ... | 05:12 |
| villager | probably not yet... someone has to develop something | 05:12 |
| smps | Orkut, there is no iptables nat modules either | 05:12 |
| smps | Orkut, nor iptables | 05:13 |
| Orkut | smps, I know | 05:13 |
| Orkut | but there's ssh | 05:13 |
| Orkut | and that's more than enough | 05:13 |
| smps | oh hehehe | 05:13 |
| smps | tunnel ? | 05:13 |
| Orkut | smps, of course | 05:13 |
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| Orkut | as you can see from the screenshot, I'm not really scared about tunnels ;) | 05:13 |
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| smps | Orkut, there are wifi tools in extras-devel repo if i recall it correctly | 05:14 |
| Orkut | smps, installed them all | 05:14 |
| Orkut | no wpasupplicant | 05:14 |
| smps | Orkut, why would you use wpa with wireless if your going to use ssh tunnel ? | 05:14 |
| Orkut | come on guys, I know my needs ;) | 05:15 |
| Orkut | why do you keep objecting I should do something that I need to do?? | 05:15 |
| Orkut | please ;) | 05:15 |
| smps | you could setup wifi connection with those (without wpa) tools and forget about gui :D | 05:15 |
| smps | i dont know better solution right now | 05:15 |
| Orkut | smps, I wish I could | 05:15 |
| smps | or compile wpa_supp yourself | 05:16 |
| Orkut | smps, that's a good point... | 05:16 |
| Orkut | compile wpa... | 05:16 |
| Orkut | I really thought it was already there | 05:16 |
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| Orkut | I was really surprised to now find it... | 05:16 |
| Orkut | didn't understand the fact that wpa is handled by wlancond | 05:17 |
| Orkut | and, besides, I am ok with the "shiny panel" ... | 05:17 |
| Orkut | the only thing that bothers me | 05:17 |
| Orkut | is the fact that it disconnects my gprs0 !! | 05:18 |
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| Orkut | so, either one, I have to start manually | 05:18 |
| Orkut | and ... gprs0 seems almost impossible to turn up from console... | 05:18 |
| Orkut | so I was looking at wlan0 | 05:18 |
| Orkut | which actually comes up easily, but with no wpa :( | 05:19 |
| villager | hmm, you can't turn gprs on from the console? interesting | 05:19 |
| Orkut | villager, ifconfig gprs0 up throws an error | 05:19 |
| Orkut | it doesn't find the i-face | 05:19 |
| Orkut | (a module unloaded?) | 05:19 |
| villager | never tried, but assumed it would be possible | 05:19 |
| villager | oh well | 05:19 |
| Orkut | Nokia-N900-42-11:/etc# ifconfig gprs0 up | 05:20 |
| Orkut | ifconfig: SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device | 05:20 |
| villager | but a future icd would have to support some kind of multiple connections in order to support mms properly, so perhaps that will also solve your problem | 05:21 |
| villager | just didn't happen at rollout time | 05:21 |
| villager | that's also why no mms | 05:21 |
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| Orkut | villager, what drives me nuts is that I see absolutely NO REASON to limit at 1 connection a time... | 05:22 |
| jebba | pong Orkut :) back | 05:22 |
| villager | Orkut: there's no reason, especially when needed by mms... they just didn't have time for it, obviously | 05:22 |
| Orkut | villager, no time for what? | 05:22 |
| villager | Orkut: multiple connections | 05:23 |
| Orkut | whats the point of multiple connections? | 05:23 |
| Orkut | what difference does it make? | 05:23 |
| Orkut | the kernel is able to handle them since 1.0 | 05:23 |
| villager | Orkut: it solves the mms problem, and apparently, solves yours | 05:23 |
| Orkut | there must be something I'm missing... | 05:23 |
| Orkut | there's no need to limit 1 connection... actually, it takes longer (in code terms) to switch oter connections off | 05:24 |
| Orkut | so, if they did so... they had a reason for it | 05:24 |
| villager | and perhaps shorter in design terms | 05:24 |
| Orkut | and I am missing that reason... | 05:25 |
| Orkut | villager, u run linux? | 05:25 |
| villager | yes of course | 05:25 |
| Orkut | villager, if you run ifconfig eth0:0 4.4.4.4 | 05:25 |
| Orkut | does it change a bit of your kernel? | 05:25 |
| Orkut | there you go, 2 connections... nothing has changed | 05:26 |
| villager | so? | 05:26 |
| Orkut | so, why bother to switch other connections off? | 05:26 |
| Orkut | imho, there's something else ... | 05:26 |
| Orkut | it's not a routing problem | 05:26 |
| Orkut | it's not a kernel problem | 05:26 |
| villager | to avoid routing conflicts, irate users, and to keep the interface simple? | 05:27 |
| smps | Orkut, power saving ? | 05:27 |
| villager | and to reduce development time because of such concerns | 05:27 |
| Orkut | villager, that could be.... | 05:27 |
| villager | easier to shut the interfaces down than to design a ui for multiple connections, even if they could be made to work | 05:27 |
| Orkut | smps, ah! power! yes... my batteries drain in 6hrs... | 05:27 |
| smps | mine in 8hrs | 05:27 |
| Orkut | villager, imho, no ... but that's way beyond me... | 05:28 |
| smps | depends what i do | 05:28 |
| villager | which in the mms case doesn't work because the primary gprs and mms routing can conflict and needs to be kept in separate routing tables, ifconfig gprs:0 won't do | 05:28 |
| Orkut | smps, I think the battery/power thing need a mAJOR rewrite | 05:28 |
| Orkut | not switching an iface | 05:28 |
| smps | i think it wont happen soon | 05:29 |
| smps | and i think this battery is too small | 05:29 |
| Orkut | smps, unfortunately... | 05:29 |
| Orkut | smps, ok, I'm a maemo noob... but... to me, it looks like this little thing scores 3 over 10 | 05:29 |
| Orkut | could be MUCH MUCH MUCH better | 05:30 |
| Orkut | but I am happy anyway ;) | 05:30 |
| villager | I'm sure nokia is working on it, they need mms support sooner or later... they just couldn't do it in time for the rollout, and are probably taking the time to get it right... but until then, one connection at a time, unless you use third-party apps to configure stuff I guess | 05:30 |
| Orkut | and I also feel like it's been developed by people ho never used a cell phone ;) | 05:30 |
| smps | hehehe | 05:31 |
| smps | Orkut, hows gps working for you ? | 05:31 |
| Orkut | smps, still never used | 05:31 |
| SpeedEvil | GPRS multiple connections is not as simple as ethernet | 05:31 |
| Orkut | (and probably never will... ) | 05:31 |
| SpeedEvil | ethernet is simple - the packets are all constructed in RAM - and simply handed off to the ethernet device. | 05:31 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, but why switch the wifi when starting gprs? | 05:32 |
| jebba | Orkut: sry, my connection dropped. What was your `route -n` ? | 05:32 |
| SpeedEvil | GPRS - there is a ppp stream - to have two simultaneous ones - you have to have a seperate multiplexing protocol | 05:32 |
| Orkut | jebba: http://temp.cappelleri.net/Screenshot-20100117-035811.png | 05:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: because that's the usual use-case, it saves power, and it keeps things simple | 05:32 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, fine, how do I turn it on myself? ;) ;) | 05:33 |
| Orkut | who cares the battery and user friendlyness ;) | 05:33 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: I'm not even sure it's in-kernel, or even written. | 05:34 |
| SpeedEvil | the multiplexer that is | 05:34 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, do u think gprs0 drains battery more or less than wifi? | 05:35 |
| jebba | Orkut: that's just sending all traffic (e.g. default route) to 192.168.30.5 | 05:35 |
| Orkut | jebba, nope | 05:35 |
| Orkut | jebba, gprs0 as well | 05:35 |
| Orkut | that's what comes out in vodafone-it | 05:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: much more if at all active. | 05:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: Assuming a powersaving wlan | 05:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Orkut: I get >30h battery life with a shell active doing while true; do sleep 60;cat somefile;done | 05:36 |
| SpeedEvil | over ssh | 05:37 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, I don't know... my N95 was connected all the time over gprs0 | 05:37 |
| Orkut | but battery only suffered from wlan | 05:37 |
| Orkut | gprs0 was almost transaprent in terms of battery drains... | 05:38 |
| SpeedEvil | I hope to have some good power measurements next week | 05:38 |
| Orkut | I assume the gsm radio is "almost on" all the time in any case | 05:38 |
| SpeedEvil | A hell of a lot of this stuff depends on consultation at the early stages happening between HW and SW devs | 05:38 |
| SpeedEvil | it's not. | 05:38 |
| Orkut | if you use gprs or not... | 05:38 |
| SpeedEvil | It's powersaving extremely, and the radio hardware is only powered up for minimal periods. | 05:39 |
| Orkut | SpeedEvil, u're probably right... I dont know | 05:39 |
| Orkut | speaking as a user... I always had gprs on... and barely noticed it | 05:39 |
| Orkut | (N95) | 05:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Anyway - numbers come next week sometime. | 05:39 |
| jebba | Orkut: in that route -n, you only have gprs active. There's no wlan0 | 05:40 |
| Orkut | jebba, how about the last line? | 05:40 |
| Orkut | jebba, the good question is: are 2 default routes working? | 05:41 |
| Orkut | jebba, you can have them... absolutely... but, to make them work... you need some tweaks... | 05:42 |
| jebba | Orkut: uh you have 0.0.0.0 pointing to 0.0.0.0. Basically everything you have will go out the 192.168.30.5 | 05:43 |
| Orkut | gprs0 routes have no gateway | 05:45 |
| Orkut | (at least, with vodafone italy) | 05:45 |
| Orkut | both routes are working, trust me | 05:45 |
| Orkut | the point is the IP the packets are built with... | 05:45 |
| Orkut | it may happen that you route a packet with 1 ip on the wrong iface | 05:45 |
| Orkut | (but there comes iproute2 in hand...) | 05:46 |
| Orkut | (or an application level stuff... ie with sip) | 05:46 |
| Orkut | sip is a messy protocol ;) | 05:46 |
| Orkut | anyway, I still have my problem ;) | 05:48 |
| Orkut | I think I'll post on maemo.org | 05:49 |
| Orkut | if someone has a clue... | 05:49 |
| jebba | Orkut: ok, so it's going out gprs0 and what else exactly? Try putting `tcpdump -i wlan0` or somesuch | 05:51 |
| jebba | Orkut: how can something "go" to 0.0.0.0, btw? Can you ping 0.0.0.0? ;) | 05:51 |
| Orkut | jebba, do you think I'm making a fool of you? | 05:53 |
| jebba | no | 05:54 |
| Orkut | so, please, trust me ;) | 05:54 |
| jebba | why? | 05:54 |
| Orkut | with vodafone italy, you get a gprs0 connection | 05:54 |
| Orkut | with default gw 0.0.0.0 | 05:54 |
| Orkut | and that's a valid routing table | 05:54 |
| Orkut | believe it or not ;) | 05:54 |
| jebba | it looks like all traffic is going out that gprs0 connection. | 05:54 |
| Orkut | and, no, you can't ping 0.0.0.0 of course | 05:54 |
| Orkut | it looks, but it's now | 05:55 |
| Orkut | in a normal kernel | 05:55 |
| Orkut | if you have 2 default routes | 05:55 |
| Orkut | the traffic is "balanced" between both | 05:55 |
| Orkut | but the point is how the packed is built | 05:55 |
| jebba | Orkut: are you saying it's going out wlan0? As that doesnt appear in your routing table. | 05:55 |
| Orkut | as in the payload you might end up having a wrong src address | 05:55 |
| Orkut | no, at that moment, it was going out from gprs0 and tun0 | 05:56 |
| Orkut | (that's the only way to have 2 interfaces active in maemo!!) | 05:56 |
| Orkut | if I could have wlan0 as well, I could make even 3 default routes!! | 05:56 |
| Orkut | the number of default routes is not a concern... | 05:57 |
| Orkut | the point is in how the packet is built | 05:57 |
| Orkut | if it goes via tun0, the src MUST be 192.168.30.6... | 05:57 |
| jebba | you can have 2 interfaces active in maemo (e.g. gprs0 and wlan0) | 05:58 |
| Orkut | BUT (you're right in this) the kernel is not smart enough to do it always, if u lack iproute2 | 05:58 |
| Orkut | jebba: HOW | 05:58 |
| Orkut | (at least, how with wpa ;) | 05:58 |
| jebba | http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/NAT | 05:58 |
| jebba | note, it needs the custom kernel for the NAT part, but not for actually bringing up two interfaces. | 05:58 |
| Orkut | great, I need wpa ;( | 05:58 |
| Orkut | jebba, all perfect... i need wpa thou :( | 05:59 |
| jebba | why not use WPA? I just do open networks, but this could be done with WPA too. | 05:59 |
| Orkut | jebba, how do I pair with no wpa supplicnt? | 05:59 |
| Orkut | that's exaclty my problem :( | 06:00 |
| Orkut | jebba, btw, I noticed your page earlier today ;) | 06:00 |
| Orkut | nice job ;) | 06:00 |
| jebba | ah, wpa supplicant cli is missing? haven't needed it meself. I do connect to wpa crap via the gui tho | 06:01 |
| Orkut | jebba, if you use the gui, the gprs0 goes off :/ | 06:02 |
| jebba | ya | 06:03 |
| jebba | seen that part | 06:03 |
| jebba | and no wpa_supplicant CLI. Well, that needs to be built than. That isn't hard is it? | 06:03 |
| Orkut | no no... I'm afraid it will break something else | 06:04 |
| jebba | really? if it's just sitting there not running. hmm | 06:04 |
| Orkut | if the wpa is handles somewhere else, I was just afraid to break some other points | 06:04 |
| Orkut | jebba, no idea... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=40985 | 06:05 |
| Orkut | that was just the point of my post... | 06:05 |
| jebba | i'll build the old etch one | 06:05 |
| Orkut | having wpa_supplicant (assuming it will not break anything else) would solve my problem | 06:07 |
| smps | where do they keep kernel image ? | 06:11 |
| jebba | smps it gets flashed somewhere majickal | 06:12 |
| smps | hmm thats interesting | 06:13 |
| Orkut | smps... looks like they didnt find space in 32GB ;) | 06:13 |
| Orkut | eheheh | 06:13 |
| Orkut | smps, apparently it resides with the bootloader... | 06:14 |
| smps | they have "partiton" on mtd device only for kernel | 06:17 |
| goodwill | is linux kernel considered tainted since it has nokia binaries? | 06:19 |
| goodwill | on n900 | 06:19 |
| goodwill | jebba: do yo have a screenie of a n900 booting with one of your kernels? | 06:20 |
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| jebba | goodwill: http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/MALF/dsc_0325.jpg | 06:22 |
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| jebba | goodwill: kernel isnt tainted | 06:22 |
| goodwill | jebba: nice ... thanks .. :) | 06:23 |
| Orkut | jebba, where are your kernels | 06:23 |
| Orkut | ? | 06:23 |
| jebba | none for PR1.1 yet: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Kernel | 06:23 |
| goodwill | jebba: I thought linking binary non gpl components against linux kernel is consedered tainiting? | 06:23 |
| smps | mtd0 is boot loader | 06:23 |
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| Orkut | found them... | 06:24 |
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| smps | kernel seems to be on mtd3 | 06:26 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | jebba: what's different in your kernel? | 06:26 |
| Orkut | jebba, can I just use your modules, instead of the whole kernel? | 06:26 |
| jebba | goodwill: they arent | 06:29 |
| jebba | Orkut: i did modules too, but many dont work (e.g. NAT) because other bits are missing | 06:29 |
| Orkut | jebba, yup, reading the logs... | 06:30 |
| Orkut | but I can't find the directory with the kernels... | 06:31 |
| smps | Orkut, on device ? | 06:32 |
| jebba | http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/dists/unstable/main/binary-armel/ Orkut kernels there | 06:32 |
| Orkut | no, on jebba's page | 06:33 |
| Orkut | thanks ;) | 06:33 |
| jebba | if you are looking for the .debs | 06:33 |
| jebba | though note again, not for PR1.1 yet, due to upstream bug | 06:33 |
| jebba | (plz vote for bug: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7972 ) | 06:33 |
| povbot` | Bug 7972: Kernel in PR1.1 build-depends on fiasco-gen which is nowhere to be found | 06:33 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | well | 06:34 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ~dict fiasko | 06:34 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | humm | 06:35 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | you know what I mean | 06:35 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ~dict fiasco | 06:35 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | aah we got no bot here | 06:36 |
| jebba | what kinda wifi card this thing got in there again? wl0404040 foo? what is that? | 06:36 |
| Orkut | jebba, I'll vote, if bugzilla sends me the password ;) | 06:37 |
| jebba | mailserver down i think | 06:38 |
| smps | wl12xx | 06:38 |
| jebba | just looking at what wpasupplicant foo is needed to support it. wext? wl12xx | 06:40 |
| smps | thats something from TI | 06:40 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I thought even airodump was working on N900@so it should be wellknown | 06:41 |
| jebba | smps: i'm editing this: http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/scratchbox/wpasupplicant/freemoe/wpasupplicant-0.6.9/debian/config/linux | 06:41 |
| smps | wl1251 | 06:41 |
| Orkut | jebba, your kernel supports dm-crypt? | 06:41 |
| Orkut | I was thinking of truecrypt, but dm-crypt would be nice as well... | 06:42 |
| jebba | Orkut: yes, dmcrypt | 06:45 |
| jebba | works too :) | 06:45 |
| jebba | http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Cryptsetup | 06:45 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | jebba: you poked some of the nokia guys about gen-fiasco? | 06:46 |
| jebba | DocScrutinizer51: Stskeeps is gonna. other than that bug report, that's it. Vote for it :) | 06:48 |
| jebba | gah, wpasupplicant is building smart card stuff even thoguh it shouldnt | 06:48 |
| smps | jebba, you should read this | 06:48 |
| smps | jebba, http://android.modaco.com/content-page/294951/21-dec-1-91-teknologist-kernel-with-tun-ko-ext4-cifs-and-compache-ramzswap-for-gsm-hero/page/340/#entry1119706 | 06:48 |
| jebba | thx | 06:52 |
| Orkut | jebba, thank you for your effort... | 06:53 |
| jebba | np | 06:53 |
| Orkut | I'll check you page later tomorrow... | 06:53 |
| Orkut | gotta sleep now | 06:54 |
| Orkut | (6am) ;) | 06:54 |
| Orkut | would be nice if you took a little time to reply to the post when done... maybe someone will need it too ;) | 06:54 |
| Orkut | thank you so far!!! | 06:54 |
| jebba | sleep well | 06:55 |
| jebba | CONFIG_DRIVER_NL80211 needed? hmm. | 06:56 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | night Orkut | 06:56 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | *cough* | 06:56 |
| jebba | i'm kinda out of date on this stuff. I'm building wpasupplicant without NL80211 | 06:57 |
| jebba | built | 06:57 |
| jebba | ok, wpasupplicant_0.6.9-4 in my repo: http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/ | 07:00 |
| jebba | http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/dists/unstable/main/binary-armel/wpasupplicant_0.6.9-4_i386.deb | 07:00 |
| jebba | If someone that actually knows how to use it could give it a test, that woudl be cool :) | 07:00 |
| smps | jebba, it wont work on device | 07:03 |
| smps | jebba, this is i386 binary | 07:03 |
| jebba | hahahaha | 07:03 |
| smps | :) | 07:04 |
| jebba | 1 minute... | 07:04 |
| jebba | thx for noticing ;) | 07:05 |
| smps | np | 07:05 |
| jebba | libqt4-dev: Depends: libqt4-webkit but it is not going to be installed | 07:06 |
| jebba | nonono. fine on i386 ar | 07:06 |
| jebba | (the dep) | 07:06 |
| smps | hehe | 07:08 |
| jebba | shit. non-free software strikes again. | 07:08 |
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| jebba | i think that webkit is in non-free which i dont mirror and i dont have it installed=screwed | 07:09 |
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| jebba | but i did have it installed in x86 already. Gar. Anyway, when the admins get things working again....i'll fix it. I can't count how many times I have been thwarted by non-free software and crappy servers since working on this project. | 07:09 |
| smps | heheheh | 07:10 |
| smps | lol | 07:10 |
| smps | k | 07:10 |
| jebba | actually, i think i'm wrong about which package it is | 07:10 |
| smps | i should go to sleep | 07:10 |
| jebba | libgles2 those are the ones that are screwing me (further down dependency list= | 07:10 |
| jebba | me too, off to bed. Another project dropped on the floor! yee haw. | 07:11 |
| smps | haha | 07:11 |
| smps | good night | 07:11 |
| jebba | nite | 07:11 |
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| _Lucretia_ | jebba: do you have a webcache or proxy on your site? | 12:51 |
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| flux | jebba, dpkg-repack could be useful, but it's not packaged either :) | 13:27 |
| _Lucretia_ | anyone else having md5sum probs with jebba's mirror? | 13:31 |
| SpeedEvil | hax! | 13:31 |
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| VINCENT_ | does anyone know if there is a lib52a audio codec available | 14:42 |
| VINCENT_ | liba52* | 14:42 |
| VINCENT_ | hmm odd i have this video and sound doesn't work with kmplayer but it does in the default player | 14:45 |
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| niekt0 | hmm, how were fiasco images generated before PR1.1? | 15:06 |
| niekt0 | or, anyone tryied to downgrade already?;) | 15:07 |
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| sle | Can someone please help me with making this example: http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE/Qt_Example installable with an icon ? | 17:24 |
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| jeremiah | sle: Hi! | 18:05 |
| jeremiah | http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_a_Qt_application | 18:06 |
| jeremiah | ^^ That is a good resource | 18:06 |
| jeremiah | In short you want to make sure you have your icon in the control file as a base64 object | 18:06 |
| jeremiah | and then you need to instruct dpkg where you want your icon installed | 18:07 |
| jeremiah | Note that the Maemo server farm is a little sickly. | 18:07 |
| jeremiah | So you might not even reach the web site - let alone the autobuilder | 18:07 |
| sle | thank you jeremiah, i can reach the site | 18:08 |
| sle | isnt the icon in the controll file just for the application manager ? | 18:09 |
| sle | how do i instruct dpgk to do that ? I have tried the discription on that wiki page a couple of times, but I dont think i get it right :/ | 18:12 |
| sle | from what i understand the most important thing is to get the *.desktop file into /usr/share/applications/hildon/ | 18:13 |
| sle | am i right ? | 18:13 |
| jeremiah | sle: Yeah | 18:38 |
| jeremiah | That is important if you want the app to show up in the app selection screens | 18:38 |
| jeremiah | If you want it to show up in HAM, you want the icon in your contorl file. | 18:38 |
| sle | okay, I have tried alot of things, but i just cannot get the .desktop file to be moved into /usr/share/applications/hildon/ when i run dpgk | 18:42 |
| sle | do i need a shitload of things to be just right for that to happend ? Iam getting pretty frustrated right now.. | 18:43 |
| slonopotamus | sle, it's debian packaging... :) | 18:44 |
| sle | well.. I am new to that :P | 18:46 |
| SpeedEvil | Doh. http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/4281438805/ | 18:48 |
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| jeremiah | sle: I was helping someone esle with this the other day - I wonder if the autobuilder is broken. | 19:27 |
| jeremiah | sle: I will have to look into this to see why it is not happening, I'll do some test packaging myself and see if I can create an incantation that works | 19:27 |
| sle | jeremiah: great, thank you, that will be great :) | 19:30 |
| jeremiah | Sure thing! I realize this is frustrating, hopefully we can make the process more clear. :) | 19:36 |
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| sle | basicly, my problem is following these steps: http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE/Qt_Example and then trying to apply this: http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_a_Qt_application to get an icon in the app selection screen | 19:49 |
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| ruskie | hmm nice been playing music on the n900 for the last 8 hours on battery and still have 20% of the battery | 20:04 |
| SpeedEvil1 | ruskie: I was surprised how well it coped with large unamplified speakers. | 20:05 |
| SpeedEvil1 | 4 ohms. | 20:05 |
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| ruskie | SpeedEvil, well I never really did get such decent time | 20:10 |
| goodwill | I'd say battery time has improved with PR1.1 | 20:11 |
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| goodwill | I got a day and a half of decent usage out of it this week | 20:11 |
| ruskie | yeah it did | 20:16 |
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| chezgi | hello, can i use GSM modem of N900 to dial someone and send some data? where can i find AT-commands for that? | 20:33 |
| smps | chezgi, google "nokia at commands" | 20:35 |
| chezgi | smps: thank you, what is dev name of N900's modem. | 20:36 |
| smps | dont know | 20:37 |
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| SpeedEvil | chezgi: many providers don't support that. | 20:42 |
| SpeedEvil | chezgi: most providers if they do support it require it to be enabled on the account, and will charge more for it. | 20:43 |
| SpeedEvil | And it will not be enabled usually. | 20:43 |
| SpeedEvil | At least - this is the case in the UK. | 20:43 |
| chezgi | SpeedEvil: ok | 20:45 |
| chezgi | SpeedEvil: if it is supported then how can i use it? | 20:45 |
| SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_Switched_Data | 20:46 |
| SpeedEvil | I have no idea if tehre is an API to use it | 20:46 |
| SpeedEvil | the above suggests it's very patchy. | 20:46 |
| chezgi | SpeedEvil: it must be done like othere serial GSM modems that only writes AT-commands to /dev/modem? | 20:47 |
| SpeedEvil | I haven't seen anything that directly communicates with the modem | 20:47 |
| smps | SpeedEvil, i think he wants just to send at command to phone | 20:48 |
| chezgi | SpeedEvil: my question is: can i use N900 to do this? | 20:48 |
| chezgi | smps: no i am inside of N900. | 20:48 |
| smps | SpeedEvil, like on other nokia phones where you could connect your usb cable to phone and send it commands over serial link / usb (ttyACMx) | 20:48 |
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| smps | chezgi, maybe this could help | 20:51 |
| smps | chezgi, https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/wiki/index.php?CSD%20services&id=1106&type=g | 20:51 |
| SpeedEvil | No - CSD is a seperate phone protocol - that goes over the GSM network. | 20:51 |
| smps | chezgi, https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/wiki/index.php?CSD%20interfaces&id=1106&type=g | 20:51 |
| smps | k | 20:51 |
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| ruskie | hmm 12h and counting and all the time playing music | 21:42 |
| ruskie | I'm actually impressed | 21:42 |
| ruskie | this is lasting longer than any of my PMPs | 21:43 |
| ruskie | and those are all screenless at that | 21:43 |
| ruskie | can't imagine what the battery life will be like with a mugen double power battery | 21:44 |
| flux | for me the battery life has apparently increased after the upgraded shortcutd (and disabling proximityd) and the pr1.1 | 21:49 |
| flux | but it's still easy to waste power by using the screen a lot | 21:49 |
| ruskie | naturally | 21:51 |
| ruskie | screens are power hungry | 21:51 |
| flux | yes. so, for that reason, I'll still seriously consider the mugen power, once it comes available | 21:52 |
| ruskie | naturally | 21:52 |
| ruskie | I'll most likely buy it | 21:52 |
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| flux | still nothing ;-) http://www.mugen-power-batteries.com/rss/catalog/category/cid/854/ | 21:53 |
| ruskie | they did say february 2010 | 21:53 |
| ruskie | according to the emails that showed up in the threads | 21:53 |
| ruskie | gah can't figure out why apt would consider a dummy pkg to be different to the one installed... even though both have exactly the same name and version | 21:58 |
| ruskie | not to the one installed... to the one available in the repos | 21:59 |
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| villager | ruskie: what do you mean by considering it different | 22:11 |
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| ruskie | villager, well I have for example a dummy: adobe-flashplayer at version "3.0" | 22:12 |
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| ruskie | and installed version is exactly the same name and same version | 22:12 |
| ruskie | if I install the dummy one using dpkg -i | 22:12 |
| ruskie | it will install it | 22:12 |
| ruskie | but the moment I do an apt-get dist-upgrade | 22:13 |
| ruskie | it will try to replace it with the one that was removed | 22:13 |
| villager | hmm yeah, I sometimes get that with locally built packages on my desktop pc | 22:13 |
| ruskie | haven't yet figured a way to tell it use the dummy one in the repo | 22:13 |
| villager | I usually deal with it by marking the package as held, but never tried to find out how it knows | 22:14 |
| ruskie | in this case I'm trying to have a ton of dummy pkgs for maemo so that I can remove things I don't want | 22:14 |
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| villager | looks like apt has code to create a version hash by looking at such things as dependency fields and Installed-Size | 22:25 |
| ruskie | hmmm | 22:25 |
| villager | might be how it insists on reinstalling | 22:25 |
| ruskie | Intalled size certainly differs | 22:26 |
| ruskie | dependncy fields don't | 22:26 |
| ruskie | I'll try using the same installed size | 22:26 |
| ruskie | just for the kick of it | 22:26 |
| flux | ruskie, are you trying to avoid upgrading the package or what? | 22:27 |
| ruskie | no | 22:27 |
| ruskie | trying to make it so I can remove stuff I don't need without removing mp-fremantle-generic-mp | 22:28 |
| flux | :) | 22:28 |
| ruskie | so generating dummy pkgs for all it's dependencies | 22:28 |
| ruskie | that way I could do apt-get install adobe-flashplayer (which would be the dummy one) | 22:28 |
| ruskie | and it would remove the normal one and install the dummy one | 22:29 |
| ruskie | that way mp-fremantle would still think it's the same | 22:29 |
| ruskie | but it wouldn't have anything installed | 22:29 |
| ruskie | hmm finnaly a low battery alert | 22:31 |
| ruskie | though lshal is claiming battery is at 0 | 22:31 |
| ruskie | it seems like the % isn't updated a lot | 22:32 |
| ruskie | I kept getting the same numbers over and over | 22:32 |
| ruskie | and then a drop for ~10 | 22:32 |
| ruskie | and so on until it hits 0 | 22:34 |
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| ruskie | yay 13 hours | 22:59 |
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