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| matti | ambv: ;] | 15:16 |
|---|---|---|
| ambv | elo | 15:16 |
| ambv | alive? | 15:16 |
| matti | Barely. | 15:16 |
| matti | ;] | 15:17 |
| matti | How are you? | 15:17 |
| ambv | just finished my master's degree | 15:33 |
| ambv | got through the final exam on Tuesday | 15:33 |
| ambv | so behold | 15:33 |
| ambv | :D | 15:33 |
| _dboddie | ambv: Congratulations! | 15:39 |
| ambv | _dboddie: thanks :) | 15:40 |
| _dboddie | ambv: What are you a master of? | 15:40 |
| ambv | _dboddie: the f-ed up thing is, I don't really know | 15:41 |
| ambv | the thing is, I am a BScE in computing science | 15:41 |
| ambv | continuing the same studies I received a Master's degree | 15:41 |
| ambv | that's basically in computing science as well | 15:41 |
| ambv | but the English translation provided by the university | 15:41 |
| ambv | states that the MSc is in IT | 15:42 |
| ambv | which is really radically inferior | 15:42 |
| matti | ambv: Very nice! Congratulations! | 15:43 |
| matti | ambv: You are lucky actually ;] | 15:43 |
| ambv | _dboddie: I studied in Poland do in my native language it seems I'm a computing science major | 15:43 |
| matti | ambv: As studying in Poland is free, basically. | 15:43 |
| matti | ambv: MSc in UK is quite expensive ;/ | 15:43 |
| ambv | matti: yup, that's one of the few good things about living in Poland | 15:44 |
| ambv | ;) | 15:44 |
| matti | ambv: :) | 15:44 |
| matti | ambv: I've decided to take another course towards BSc as well. | 15:45 |
| matti | ambv: Then perhaps PhD, not sure yet. | 15:45 |
| ambv | hell no | 15:45 |
| ambv | don't do PhD | 15:45 |
| matti | No? | 15:45 |
| matti | Why not? | 15:45 |
| ambv | my observations are that PhD, or even the act of trying to get it, makes you mentally disconnected | 15:46 |
| matti | I already have BSc is Physics, but people look at it with some sort of "a grin" when I apply for IT jobs. | 15:46 |
| matti | ambv: In what way | 15:46 |
| matti | ? | 15:46 |
| ambv | our company is seeking Python developers since about a month | 15:46 |
| matti | Is it? | 15:47 |
| matti | Remote work as well? | 15:47 |
| ambv | nope, Poznan based only. | 15:47 |
| matti | I could do some part time ;) Even for very little salary, just to get more hands on, as RIM prefers Ruby and Lua and... Java... to Python. | 15:47 |
| matti | ambv: Shame. | 15:47 |
| matti | ;] | 15:47 |
| ambv | sorry, not my decision actually. | 15:48 |
| matti | I know. | 15:48 |
| matti | No worries. | 15:48 |
| matti | I presume you are having troubles with people? | 15:48 |
| ambv | but the really challenging thing is that we got a couple of PhD (actual or wannabes) come for interviews. | 15:48 |
| matti | I mean, finding people? | 15:48 |
| matti | And/ | 15:48 |
| matti | ? | 15:48 |
| ambv | the first one wanted to get approx. twice the salary our best developer is receiving. | 15:49 |
| ambv | and based on my two fairly basic Python interview questions, he has little to none experience with the language. | 15:49 |
| matti | I reckon PhD-wannabe wants BIG salary for their title (or titles) and they are like... dreamers... floating away... somewhere and somehow different direction than what company have in mind. | 15:49 |
| matti | LOL | 15:50 |
| matti | Why do they apply then? | 15:50 |
| ambv | the second one who came to the company actually got the job | 15:50 |
| matti | But | 15:50 |
| matti | ? | 15:50 |
| ambv | because he was the boss's old friend from studies | 15:50 |
| matti | Oh god. | 15:50 |
| matti | Terrible. | 15:50 |
| matti | I hate that. | 15:50 |
| ambv | he was acting as he was better than the rest of us | 15:50 |
| matti | :( | 15:50 |
| ambv | even calling the team "snots" over the phone | 15:50 |
| matti | LOL | 15:51 |
| matti | But no every PhD student is like that, isnt it? | 15:51 |
| matti | ;] | 15:51 |
| matti | They are some humble ones as well. | 15:51 |
| matti | For instance, zeth | 15:51 |
| matti | ;] | 15:51 |
| * matti hugs zeth | 15:51 | |
| matti | Hehe. | 15:52 |
| ambv | I don't know. Based on who went for PhD from my Master's studies... it seems that most of PhD students really ARE like that. | 15:52 |
| ambv | still yet | 15:52 |
| ambv | that's not the last example | 15:52 |
| matti | OK | 15:52 |
| matti | Carry on | 15:52 |
| matti | ;] | 15:52 |
| ambv | the PhD hired is already on the recoil | 15:52 |
| matti | Hm. | 15:53 |
| ambv | because basically the whole team is able to easily show his incompetence and dreamy attitude (that we should be oh so methodological) | 15:53 |
| mgedmin | we have one phd in our office, he's okay | 15:53 |
| ambv | mgedmin: respect him, he's a rarity | 15:54 |
| mgedmin | maybe lacks confidence in his programming skills a bit | 15:54 |
| matti | mgedmin: As I said, not all of them are like those described by ambv | 15:54 |
| matti | mgedmin: What is the point for a company to get PhD student on-board? | 15:54 |
| matti | I wonder. | 15:54 |
| ambv | matti: so I expect the PhD to surrender in less that three weeks | 15:54 |
| ambv | but the best part is that he's not the last example | 15:54 |
| matti | ambv: Hehe, is you team making bets already? | 15:54 |
| ambv | yup, we were since we heard him calling us 'snots' over the phone | 15:55 |
| ambv | :D | 15:55 |
| matti | ambv: Don't keep me in such state of anxiety, tell me! I want the last example! | 15:55 |
| ambv | today I interviewed a guy that's a PhD in physics | 15:55 |
| ambv | he claims 10 years experience with Python | 15:55 |
| matti | OK | 15:55 |
| ambv | numerous open source activity | 15:56 |
| matti | Did you Googled him? | 15:56 |
| matti | ;] | 15:56 |
| ambv | papers, conference attendance, certificates | 15:56 |
| ambv | yup, a little, seems to be more of a teacher than a scientist | 15:56 |
| matti | And... | 15:56 |
| matti | At the end... | 15:56 |
| matti | ;] | 15:56 |
| matti | He fail terribly on something, didnt he? | 15:57 |
| ambv | but still, we gave him a chance, despite his statement that he wants to get at least 150 PLN an hour | 15:57 |
| matti | Is that a lot? | 15:57 |
| ambv | which gives you over 25K full time | 15:57 |
| matti | PLN? | 15:57 |
| ambv | the Polish president does not earn that much | 15:57 |
| matti | Hahah. | 15:57 |
| ambv | but still | 15:58 |
| matti | Well, he certainly is a character ;] | 15:58 |
| ambv | we thought, hell, maybe he will be The Man | 15:58 |
| matti | Big ego tho. | 15:58 |
| ambv | maybe he'll be the new lead | 15:58 |
| matti | ... and... | 15:58 |
| matti | and ... | 15:58 |
| ambv | (Google tells me 25K PLN is around 5300 GBP) | 15:58 |
| ambv | but you can't really directly compare. costs of living being different and stuff. summing it up: 25K is astronomical. | 15:59 |
| _dboddie | I guess you need to make sure that these guys actually know how to write code rather than just wave their arms. | 15:59 |
| ambv | on to the guy: | 15:59 |
| _dboddie | That problem isn't restricted to people with PhDs. | 15:59 |
| ambv | 1. he actually yelled at me when I asked him to write some code on the whiteboard | 15:59 |
| matti | LOL? | 16:00 |
| matti | Interesting. | 16:01 |
| matti | ;] | 16:01 |
| ambv | yup, he told me I am being ridiculous by asking him to write code during the interview | 16:01 |
| matti | Of course. | 16:01 |
| matti | ;p | 16:01 |
| _dboddie | Sounds like someone is afraid of writing code. It might the fear of being shown up. | 16:02 |
| matti | He dare you to even ask him anything during the interview. | 16:02 |
| matti | s/He/How | 16:02 |
| matti | _dboddie: I am usually quite nervous during the interviews. | 16:02 |
| ambv | but I told him that he's trying to get a job as a developer, and as such, his daily work will involve coding. the real reason behind seing people code isn't to check whether they remember the std lib by heart. it's to see how they operate with idioms. | 16:02 |
| _dboddie | matti: When interviewing or as a candidate? | 16:02 |
| _dboddie | :-) | 16:02 |
| ambv | so he tried to write SOMETHING | 16:02 |
| matti | _dboddie: Both. | 16:02 |
| matti | ;] | 16:03 |
| ambv | and then... | 16:03 |
| ambv | 2. he started indexing a Python list starting from 1 | 16:03 |
| matti | _dboddie: I reckon it is easier with age and experience. | 16:03 |
| _dboddie | matti: Or if you have a few drinks beforehand. ;-) | 16:03 |
| matti | ambv: Hehehe. | 16:03 |
| ambv | 3. he told me that preparing a domain model with 3 classes is impossible without prior formalisation of the problem | 16:04 |
| matti | _dboddie: Tried that once with coffee... | 16:04 |
| ambv | 4. he didn't know how to check the length of a list | 16:04 |
| matti | _dboddie: I did slightly too much ...caffeeeine ;p | 16:04 |
| ambv | 5. when I told him it's "len", he wrote "list.len()" | 16:04 |
| matti | _dboddie: They invited me for the second interview, but I was not allowed coffee ;p | 16:04 |
| matti | ambv: 10 years you say. | 16:05 |
| matti | ;] | 16:05 |
| ambv | yup. | 16:05 |
| matti | Even I am not that bad. | 16:05 |
| ambv | but I was really hopeful. | 16:05 |
| _dboddie | 10 years of Python 3? ;-) | 16:05 |
| matti | _dboddie: ;p | 16:05 |
| ambv | _dboddie: don't laugh | 16:05 |
| ambv | there was a guy today also | 16:05 |
| matti | ambv: I want to work for half of his salary. | 16:06 |
| ambv | claiming he wrote his BSc thesis project in Python 2.6 | 16:06 |
| ambv | 4 years ago | 16:06 |
| matti | ambv: I refuse to do interview. | 16:06 |
| matti | ambv: And I dont want to write code. | 16:06 |
| matti | ambv: Plus I want to mokney patch list build in, so I can have .list() instance method in 2.{5,6}+ :) | 16:06 |
| matti | ambv: Do you agree? | 16:06 |
| matti | ;] | 16:06 |
| _dboddie | matti: If you can travel through time as well, ambv will give you the job! | 16:06 |
| ambv | :D | 16:07 |
| matti | _dboddie: Sure thing I do! | 16:07 |
| matti | _dboddie: ;p | 16:07 |
| matti | _dboddie: But I refuse to prove it ;p | 16:07 |
| ambv | so, to sum up the PhD story of the last miserable guy. | 16:07 |
| ambv | I let him show what he's actually good at and asked about one of the projects. | 16:07 |
| ambv | he explained that it is a massive simulation framework in C++ with an XML interface and Python client bindings. | 16:08 |
| matti | Interesting. | 16:08 |
| ambv | when I asked what XML parser they used | 16:08 |
| ambv | he told me: "there was this function we wrote" | 16:08 |
| ambv | I asked again: "what parser did the function use?" | 16:08 |
| matti | ambv: What would be the ratio of competent-people to incompetent-people you interview? | 16:08 |
| ambv | he replied: "the function was parsing XML, I don't understand your question" | 16:09 |
| ambv | so, fail fail fail. epic fail. | 16:09 |
| matti | ;] | 16:09 |
| ambv | matti: I'd say 1 hacker for every 10 losers. | 16:09 |
| matti | That's bad. | 16:09 |
| matti | Actually. | 16:09 |
| ambv | the problem with the hackers is that they usually want to work remotely, as yourself. | 16:10 |
| matti | I am merely a humble python user. | 16:10 |
| matti | Not much of a hacker. | 16:10 |
| ambv | working remotely does not scale in our environment where most of the work is done in a pretty confident manner. we don't even have the source code on our local computers. | 16:10 |
| matti | Too much languages on my plate, hard to get one at the master level. | 16:10 |
| ambv | matti: don't "humble" me. i only talk to hackers. | 16:10 |
| ambv | ;) | 16:10 |
| matti | I have to look after code in Lua, Java, Ruby and Perl... plus Python and C/C++. | 16:11 |
| matti | Too much sometimes. | 16:11 |
| ambv | yup, that's hard. | 16:11 |
| matti | After a week in Perl I keep adding ; everywhere. | 16:11 |
| matti | After a week in Ruby I would like to use closuers everywhere. | 16:11 |
| matti | After a week in C++ I need a psychotherapy. | 16:12 |
| matti | ;] | 16:12 |
| matti | And God my witness... | 16:12 |
| matti | I damn HATE Java. | 16:12 |
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