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| Aiste | regarding budget stuff -- I am meeting with the hotel people Monday next week | 12:33 |
|---|---|---|
| Aiste | I will find out about streamers and such | 12:33 |
| Aiste | I think I gave information regarding booths to Laura before going on holiday. | 12:34 |
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| dboddie_work | Aiste: Sounds good. | 16:30 |
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| dboddie_work | pboddie: Are you convening a minimal meeting? | 18:58 |
| pboddie | I think it's going to be a normal meeting, isn't it? | 19:00 |
| dboddie_work | At 7pm or now? | 19:03 |
| pboddie | Now. That's when at least four of us said we'd be able to meet. | 19:04 |
| stedi67 | I'm here | 19:05 |
| dboddie_work | OK. I guess this is going to be fairly informal, then. | 19:05 |
| pboddie | I guess so. | 19:05 |
| stedi67 | doesn't look too crowded | 19:05 |
| dboddie_work | mgedmin: ping | 19:06 |
| mgedmin | pong? | 19:06 |
| dboddie_work | :-) | 19:06 |
| pboddie | Very well, I'll start off with a report on the mailing lists. | 19:06 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Go ahead. | 19:06 |
| pboddie | I contacted the mailman address at python.org, but I think I'm going to have to chase up the postmaster, since they bounce people away when using the published contact address. | 19:07 |
| pboddie | I'll also file another bug against the python.org site in their special tracker. | 19:07 |
| pboddie | I'll change the call for participation - http://www.europython.org/community/Planning/CallForParticipationDraft - in anticipation of these lists. Any remarks on that document or the themes? | 19:08 |
| dboddie_work | I think it's fine. We're just waiting for the mailing lists, as far as I'm concerned. | 19:08 |
| pboddie | What about sending it out? If we get the lists, are people OK about me just announcing talk submissions? | 19:09 |
| dboddie_work | I think it's fine, but you'll need to poll the others. | 19:09 |
| pboddie | I think this is more important than almost anything else right now. | 19:10 |
| dboddie_work | Regarding the tutorials, I don't expect to get a response about the tutor mailing list, so I imagine that we'll just end up scheduling tutorials as long talks. | 19:10 |
| dboddie_work | So, announcing the talk submissions is really the next big thing. | 19:11 |
| pboddie | Did you send anything to comp.lang.python? | 19:11 |
| dboddie_work | Yes. | 19:11 |
| dboddie_work | I imagine that Stefan Behnel read about it there. | 19:11 |
| dboddie_work | And it was on the blog as well. | 19:11 |
| pboddie | Well, it can be mentioned in the CFP. | 19:12 |
| dboddie_work | mgedmin: Is Laura handling the video conferencing? | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | guido made contact with the reval person (I was Cc'ed) | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | I'm not sure if there's anything else to do about it other than to wait for the techs to finish protocol negotiation | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | maybe payment? | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | anyway, I seem to be out of the loop now | 19:13 |
| dboddie_work | As long as it's being managed, that's OK. | 19:13 |
| dboddie_work | And that we know it's being managed, of course. :-) | 19:13 |
| pboddie | MrTopf: Any more information about copyright assignment practices around talk recordings? | 19:14 |
| MrTopf | ah, am I again missing a meeting? ;-) | 19:14 |
| pboddie | It was moved to an earlier time for Aiste's benefit, but she couldn't make it today. :-) | 19:15 |
| MrTopf | I don't know what the normal practices are but marking them CC licensed might help | 19:15 |
| MrTopf | do we know how we can record it by now? :) | 19:15 |
| pboddie | How was it done at, say, the Plone conference? Did you tell us this already? | 19:15 |
| MrTopf | I fear I forgot to ask Jon | 19:16 |
| dboddie_work | I wonder if Finn (a colleague) was at the Plone conference. I could ask him. | 19:17 |
| MrTopf | I am asking on the plone channel right now | 19:17 |
| MrTopf | for the plone symposium east somebody just emailed around asking for permission | 19:18 |
| MrTopf | but I think we should prepare something to sign to agree that it's licensed under a CC license | 19:18 |
| MrTopf | NC-ND-SA might be ok | 19:19 |
| MrTopf | or people can sign the minimum and add restrictions by adding checkmarks ;-) | 19:19 |
| dboddie_work | Are there templates for that sort of thing on the CC Web site? | 19:19 |
| MrTopf | can't find anything with Google right now | 19:21 |
| dboddie_work | Well, maybe one of the organisers has legal connections that we can use to draft something. | 19:21 |
| pboddie | Perhaps PyCon also had some forms for this. | 19:22 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: I'll ask around. | 19:22 |
| dboddie_work | Regarding fees, I guess that we find out about those next week after Aiste meets with the hotel staff. | 19:22 |
| dboddie_work | So, I suppose we shouldn't do a meeting too early next week. | 19:23 |
| dboddie_work | (She said Monday, for those not on the channel 24x7.) | 19:23 |
| MrTopf | did anybody ask regaring a dedicated line for video streaming/recording? | 19:23 |
| dboddie_work | mgedmin: Maybe something for Aiste to ask? | 19:24 |
| pboddie | I don't recall the Internet discussion but wasn't there a dedicated line or something? | 19:24 |
| MrTopf | hiring somebody to do the video would of course also be an option but this might be expensive | 19:26 |
| MrTopf | another question is if some cameras/tripods/laptops should be rented for doing this | 19:26 |
| MrTopf | then only people are needed ("only") | 19:26 |
| pboddie | Perhaps we need to drum up enthusiasm again. The PyCon videos have been coming out, and perhaps people might be more interested now that they've seen some of those. | 19:27 |
| pboddie | My fear is that a lot of people won't be bothered about video: they're either going to be there or they won't be there and just won't care ahead of time. | 19:27 |
| MrTopf | they should think of the people who cannot go | 19:28 |
| pboddie | Logically, it would fit into the theme captain (track chair) hierarchy: the person "running" the talks in a particular room would be assisted by a video person. | 19:28 |
| dboddie_work | I think Kirby tried to drum up some enthusiasm. | 19:29 |
| MrTopf | but I mean, it's a community effort here. I will definitely at least record something or stream if possible | 19:29 |
| pboddie | But there hasn't been much activity on that front. | 19:29 |
| MrTopf | I will mail again next week | 19:29 |
| MrTopf | a bit sick these days unfortunately so I need to postpone some stuff | 19:29 |
| dboddie_work | I think this depends on getting the call for talks out. | 19:29 |
| pboddie | I wouldn't mind interviewing people - and actually doing it this time! | 19:29 |
| MrTopf | will send out a call for video people | 19:29 |
| dboddie_work | Then we can ask people what they want to see recorded. | 19:29 |
| pboddie | But that's not the same as recording talks. | 19:29 |
| MrTopf | Linden Lab wanted to propose a talk :) | 19:30 |
| pboddie | OK, I'll pester the python.org people in order to get the CFP out forthwith! | 19:30 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: I think people would be interested in having that recorded. | 19:30 |
| MrTopf | recording talks might be easier as you don't have to ask people about something ;-) | 19:30 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: It's also useful promotional material for Python. We should get the advocacy people involved. | 19:30 |
| pboddie | But I'd have to hold my camera steady unless it's a Dogme production. | 19:30 |
| MrTopf | I mean streaming is not that hard, start the stream, check the camera here and there to point at slides or speaker | 19:30 |
| MrTopf | yes, it's good to get these talks out | 19:31 |
| MrTopf | and we should make sure we have some connection to the audio system | 19:31 |
| MrTopf | otherwise sound will suck | 19:31 |
| pboddie | There should be some overlap with GvR's videoconferencing, since I imagine that there will be questions going to him as well. Thus, audio system magic will need to happen somehow. | 19:33 |
| pboddie | Anyway, I'm starting off a Wiki page for this: http://www.europython.org/community/Audio_and_Video | 19:34 |
| pboddie | It's mentioned in the CFP, and perhaps we can get some enthusiasts in due course. | 19:34 |
| MrTopf | add some mentioning of a cc license in the CFP maybe | 19:36 |
| pboddie | Good idea! I'll indicate that we want to use a suitably nice CC licence for the material produced. | 19:37 |
| pboddie | OK, the agenda said something about the budget and fees, but I don't think everyone involved is here, so we might want to skip that. | 19:38 |
| pboddie | The same thing applies to the registration and payment systems, I suppose. | 19:40 |
| pboddie | And on surveys, since that's John's department. | 19:40 |
| pboddie | I suppose there wasn't anything really said about sponsors or sponsorship. | 19:44 |
| pboddie | We have to firm up the sponsor offer soon, though, since we've already had a request from a potential sponsor. | 19:44 |
| pboddie | Related to all this (for the brochure), I intend to add up the logo votes tonight and to declare a winner. | 19:45 |
| dboddie_work | OK. | 19:49 |
| pboddie | The CC people don't make it as easy to choose licences as they claim, in my opinion. | 19:50 |
| dboddie_work | There's a form on their site. | 19:50 |
| pboddie | MrTopf: Did you mean BY-NC-ND not NC-ND-SA? | 19:51 |
| dboddie_work | Anyway, I'm trying to get some information on how it worked at PyCon, so we can hopefully nail another issue. | 19:51 |
| MrTopf | I skipped the BY ;-) | 19:52 |
| MrTopf | this seems to be the case anyway | 19:52 |
| MrTopf | we should now just say that a CC license is required and we can check later which ones make sense or if we let people choose | 19:53 |
| MrTopf | e.g. if people are ok without NC then they can use this of course aswell | 19:53 |
| MrTopf | and so on | 19:53 |
| pboddie | SA seems to be about sharing modifications, which would surely conflict with ND. | 19:54 |
| dboddie_work | The PyCon people didn't get people to sign stuff in advance. | 19:54 |
| pboddie | I was hoping that the FSF would come through with the SFDL. | 19:54 |
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| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Hello again. | 19:56 |
| CarlFK | hi gang | 19:56 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK is doing the assignments for PyCon. | 19:57 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Didn't you also record the video output from laptops? | 19:57 |
| CarlFK | kinda. was going to, and ran into various technical problems | 19:58 |
| dboddie_work | That's a shame, after all that preparatory work. | 19:58 |
| dboddie_work | So, would you recommend that we talk to David Goodger about copyright forms/agreements? | 19:59 |
| dboddie_work | We've been discussing using a CC license. | 19:59 |
| CarlFK | http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pMUz8u6E2LUY79MJpn2MuDQ&inv=carl%40personnelware.com&t=1665042432404888852 | 19:59 |
| CarlFK | can you guys all view that? | 19:59 |
| dboddie_work | Anyone with a Google account? | 20:00 |
| CarlFK | I think so | 20:00 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie, MrTopf? | 20:00 |
| pboddie | Yes. | 20:01 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Do you do Google? | 20:01 |
| MrTopf | yes | 20:01 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: Can you access the spreadsheet? | 20:02 |
| MrTopf | yes :) | 20:02 |
| pboddie | Ah, I see that there are scanned permission forms. | 20:02 |
| CarlFK | It may be too late, given you have already told speakers they can speak, but trying to keep track of who has been asked, who has answered, what their answer was, do you have that in writing, and what footage does this apply to (sometalk.avi or tape) | 20:03 |
| CarlFK | huge nightmare | 20:03 |
| CarlFK | yeah, but we lost the scanns... | 20:03 |
| MrTopf | if possible we should make sure that everybody agreed | 20:04 |
| dboddie_work | I think it's usually seen as a good idea to get people to sign real paper documents. Perhaps the Europython Society could then hold on to those. | 20:04 |
| dboddie_work | Of course, we would want to scan them as well. | 20:04 |
| MrTopf | or can you say "if you submit a talk you also agree to have it recorded under a CC license" ? | 20:04 |
| MrTopf | SA btw means share-alike and this means that you have to use the same license as the original work | 20:05 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: Sure. We may need to get them to sign something, just to make sure. | 20:05 |
| MrTopf | yep, maybe at signup | 20:05 |
| dboddie_work | Yes. | 20:05 |
| MrTopf | registration desk I mean | 20:05 |
| CarlFK | MrTopf: but you have already accepted talk submissions, right? | 20:05 |
| pboddie | CarlFK: Not yet, no. | 20:05 |
| dboddie_work | As usual, things are going very slowly. | 20:05 |
| CarlFK | ah | 20:06 |
| pboddie | I think it's kinder to let people veto their talk being distributed - it could still be recorded - but then provide an incentive for them to sign off. Perhaps a competition! | 20:06 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: We're basically waiting to get a python.org mailing list activated. | 20:06 |
| pboddie | MrTopf: Having them sign something at registration could be very effective, yes. | 20:07 |
| CarlFK | if you can do something that covers everyone without having to track each speaker, do that | 20:07 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: I assumed you meant at registration. :-) | 20:07 |
| MrTopf | if we stream it live we actually should be sure that we actually are allowed to do it | 20:07 |
| stedi67 | need to run. have a good night | 20:07 |
| dboddie_work | stedi67: Thanks for coming. | 20:08 |
| MrTopf | cya stedi67 | 20:08 |
| CarlFK | the minute you try to get any one speaker to do anything, you are asking for a headache | 20:08 |
| *** stedi67 has left #europython | 20:08 | |
| pboddie | I think people are becoming less tolerant of certain kinds of restrictions on talks. Things like ultraproprietary stuff, not having their slides available online (because they're "top secret"). | 20:08 |
| MrTopf | that's why I think we need to put this on the CFP already explaining a bit more what it means (e.g. that we don't sell their stuff) | 20:09 |
| pboddie | Maybe it is best to insist on compliance as early as possible. | 20:09 |
| dboddie_work | I think that we should indicate that we prefer to record/stream all talks, even if we have to get people to sign forms. | 20:09 |
| dboddie_work | And get people to say beforehand if they want to be recorded or not. | 20:10 |
| dboddie_work | And make it all public and transparent. | 20:10 |
| MrTopf | a blame list ;-) | 20:10 |
| CarlFK | in us.07 there was a talk by a guy from Sony Pictures that had some Spider Man Movie stuff that could not be recorded. "we wouldn't be able to see that talk if we forced everyone to agree to release..." | 20:11 |
| MrTopf | well, we can still see what the exception might be | 20:11 |
| MrTopf | and can sort them out then | 20:11 |
| CarlFK | my posision: then we don't see that talk. managing this release mess is way more 'cost' that that talk had 'value' | 20:11 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: Not really blame, but make it obvious who gave a talk but wouldn't commit to a decision. | 20:11 |
| pboddie | Maybe there has to be an "opt out". | 20:11 |
| dboddie_work | If people don't want to be recorded, it's better to find out beforehand than after it was recorded. | 20:12 |
| pboddie | CarlFK: Which licence did you use? | 20:12 |
| dboddie_work | I'm happy if people don't want to be recorded, but I don't want people to waste time filming if it can't be shown later. | 20:12 |
| pboddie | Well, they can say when they submit their talk if they shouldn't be recorded or streamed. | 20:13 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Agreed. | 20:13 |
| CarlFK | http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/Release%20agreement-2008.rtf | 20:13 |
| MrTopf | CarlFK: also an option of course | 20:13 |
| MrTopf | maybe that's even better | 20:13 |
| MrTopf | even if it's a keynote | 20:13 |
| MrTopf | because then it makes even less sense ;-) | 20:13 |
| pboddie | And the Sony people will have to be satisfied that DRM isn't yet applicable to the eyes and brain. ;-) | 20:13 |
| CarlFK | dboddie_work: we are spending more time keeping track of who did/didnt allow than we spent recording | 20:13 |
| MrTopf | ok, so prereq should be to allow streaming/recording | 20:14 |
| MrTopf | most people won't have a problem with it anyway I'd guess | 20:14 |
| CarlFK | prereq should be to allow everything :) | 20:14 |
| MrTopf | at least nobody so far said I have to delete some video | 20:14 |
| CarlFK | anyone with a problem should not speak | 20:14 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Even more of a reason to find out beforehand. :-) | 20:14 |
| pboddie | CarlFK: I can't resolve that address. | 20:14 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Fine here. | 20:15 |
| CarlFK | Connecting to dev.personnelware.com|76.29.25.210|:80... connected. | 20:15 |
| MrTopf | works for me | 20:15 |
| dboddie_work | Looks like it allows derivative works, redistribution. | 20:16 |
| pboddie | I guess the local DNS isn't happy, or Firefox. | 20:16 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: I'll forward it on to you. | 20:16 |
| dboddie_work | I'll chase up David Goodger about that. I think we'll want to simplify/customize it a bit. | 20:17 |
| dboddie_work | We may also want to add something to the Call for Participation about recording. | 20:17 |
| CarlFK | I am extra grumpy about this mess because last year I was trying to do away with allowing speakers the choice. the "but spiderman.." argument won out, and now I am left with over 100 hours of recording, and am spending huge amounts of time (over 10 hours so far) trying to sort out what I can/can't release | 20:17 |
| MrTopf | I would really use some CC license blurb in this as this is what most people know.. reading through that fine print might frighten some people | 20:17 |
| MrTopf | and I think CC is sort of clear by stating BY, NC, ND etc. | 20:17 |
| MrTopf | (esp. NC) | 20:18 |
| MrTopf | CarlFK: that sucks | 20:18 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: The Microsoft guy at EuroPython last year showed a Fantastic Four trailer, but his talk wasn't worth recording, anyway. :-) | 20:18 |
| MrTopf | I recorded it ;-) | 20:19 |
| MrTopf | but didn't release it | 20:19 |
| CarlFK | the only reason I can see allowing talks that can't be recorded is if you are short on speakers | 20:19 |
| MrTopf | or some MS talk | 20:19 |
| CarlFK | heh | 20:19 |
| MrTopf | but it was mostly a pitch anyway | 20:19 |
| MrTopf | no need in publishing this ;-) | 20:19 |
| dboddie_work | It's a good idea to mention recording at submission because it may help people decide what to put in their presentation. | 20:20 |
| CarlFK | the other idea I have heard is "publish everything, and take it down if anyone complains" | 20:20 |
| dboddie_work | If they want to be recorded then no Spiderman. :-) | 20:20 |
| MrTopf | so I think we need a legal blurb and maybe some "human" explanation of what it means | 20:20 |
| MrTopf | and what not to do then | 20:20 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Isn't that what YouTube is for? ;-) | 20:20 |
| MrTopf | so far I always waited for complaints and never got one | 20:20 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: Legal blurb with CC license icons and maybe another explanation. | 20:20 |
| MrTopf | and esp. at Barcamps we don't ask for permission but record things and publish them | 20:21 |
| MrTopf | for barcamps it would seem strange to sign somethign first as it's a very flexible planning there anyway | 20:21 |
| CarlFK | http://www.youtube.com/user/pycon08 - we are getting some stuff up | 20:22 |
| CarlFK | brb - need lunch | 20:22 |
| MrTopf | take care! | 20:22 |
| MrTopf | dboddie_work: yep | 20:23 |
| pboddie | I guess we need some boilerplate which says that having your talk accepted (and you accepting that your talk is accepted!) means that you accept the recording and distribution terms. | 20:23 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Thanks for dropping by. | 20:23 |
| MrTopf | you can simply copy the CC license agreement on some paper and add something similar to the top like the PSF one | 20:23 |
| MrTopf | and use the most restrictive license maybe | 20:23 |
| dboddie_work | I don't want to force people to be recorded. I just want them to commit to something, one way or the other. | 20:24 |
| pboddie | OK, I've added some text to the Audio and Video page. | 20:26 |
| pboddie | I imagine that a GPL-like approach is the way to go: that if you do something then you agree to something else. | 20:27 |
| pboddie | That you get told that if you cross a particular line, you agree to something. Thus, crossing the line implies agreement. | 20:27 |
| pboddie | See here for a start: http://www.europython.org/community/Audio_and_Video | 20:29 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Do you have a link for that license? | 20:30 |
| pboddie | No, but you can probably reproduce it. | 20:31 |
| dboddie_work | http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ | 20:31 |
| MrTopf | ND or SA is the question here I guess | 20:31 |
| MrTopf | but SA should be ok | 20:31 |
| MrTopf | so people can reuse slides ;-) | 20:32 |
| dboddie_work | Right. Well, we could offer a choice of two licenses, but we should be against license proliferation. :-) | 20:34 |
| CarlFK | im back | 20:35 |
| CarlFK | dboddie_work: any choice means you have to track what all the choices are | 20:35 |
| dboddie_work | The main thing is to know in advance, and to shame people who change their mind because Spiderman told them, "No publicity!" | 20:35 |
| CarlFK | er, that didn't sound right. ... track what each person chose | 20:36 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Agreed, but I think we'll have to face the possibility that there will be some exceptions, though hopefully only a few. | 20:36 |
| CarlFK | and if they chose, and where the formal record of their choice is | 20:36 |
| dboddie_work | Sure. | 20:37 |
| pboddie | I think SA is safest from our side, anyway. | 20:37 |
| CarlFK | I see no need for exceptions | 20:37 |
| MrTopf | take this, it will be ok :) | 20:38 |
| CarlFK | there is no "medium" solution. it is either really easy, or.. really really anoying | 20:38 |
| dboddie_work | I guess this raises the issue of registration and having forms that need to be signed before you get your badge and registration pack. :-) | 20:38 |
| dboddie_work | I can't believe nobody mentioned badges. :-) | 20:38 |
| pboddie | Anyway, we can float the idea on the mailing list or, deviously, just go with BY-NC-SA and see if people complain. ;-) | 20:38 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Any reaction is better than no reaction. | 20:39 |
| pboddie | I think we only need to get people to sign stuff if a lawyer or someone similar tells us that this is needed. | 20:39 |
| CarlFK | do you think you will have trouble getting enough speakers? | 20:39 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: I think the biggest problem is with indifference. Is that something you found with PyCon? | 20:39 |
| CarlFK | indifference? | 20:39 |
| pboddie | As I said, by standing up and crossing the line (think distributing GPL-licensed code), you've just accepted the terms set out by the organisers. | 20:39 |
| pboddie | Being a speaker at EuroPython shouldn't happen accidentally. Although lightning talks might be a different matter. | 20:40 |
| CarlFK | lightning talks are a big part of my mess | 20:41 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Asking for opinions and getting few responses. | 20:41 |
| CarlFK | no - got lots of responses, most were "we wana see Spiderman" | 20:42 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: I think it's useful to have something on paper, then you can avoid people changing their minds later and requesting that videos be taken down. | 20:43 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: Of course, it might just be easier to let people do that. They'll only damage their own reputations in the process. | 20:44 |
| * dboddie_work wonders if you could film someone agreeing to the CC license and use that as a legally binding "document". | 20:44 | |
| dboddie_work | Are we finished with our informal meeting? | 20:46 |
| MrTopf | that's also a lot of work I think to ask this in front of every talk | 20:46 |
| MrTopf | you might forget it | 20:46 |
| CarlFK | hold.. | 20:46 |
| CarlFK | given you guys seem to be considering paperwork | 20:46 |
| CarlFK | one thing that will help: pre-filled out forms | 20:47 |
| CarlFK | "record/distribute? [ ]yes [ ]no... talk title... speaker name... signed:______ date: _____" | 20:47 |
| CarlFK | include some sort of Talk ID so you can quickly tie the paper back to what talk it is | 20:48 |
| pboddie | I'd prefer to avoid paperwork, really. | 20:48 |
| CarlFK | I have 2 forms that I have no idea what they are releasing | 20:49 |
| pboddie | I've updated http://www.europython.org/community/Audio_and_Video to put the barriers up front. | 20:49 |
| CarlFK | I would avoid paperwork | 20:49 |
| CarlFK | avoid paperwork, choice, anything that has to be kept track of. | 20:50 |
| pboddie | As I said, by the time anyone is standing in front of an audience, they should be aware that the camera is running or that they had to say that the camera should not be running. | 20:50 |
| pboddie | No-one is going to get into the situation by accident. | 20:50 |
| pboddie | It's more difficult with lightning talks because these happen spontaneously. | 20:50 |
| MrTopf | not sure if it is sufficient to say that you only can hold one if you agree to those terms | 20:51 |
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| pboddie | But you can say that they may opt out of being recorded. | 20:52 |
| CarlFK | MrTopf: I have heard that concern. I am hoping someone looks into it | 20:52 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: It can be difficult to hold people to things unless there's a signed document. | 20:52 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: I'd love to avoid forms, but the people giving talks (unlike the ones recording them) aren't going to be involved in redistributing them, so it's not quite like the usual software license situation. | 20:54 |
| dboddie_work | I think it's a bit like having a click-to-agree license. | 20:55 |
| pboddie | My point was that someone can't actively do something and then claim that they didn't know what they were doing. | 20:55 |
| dboddie_work | Sure. | 20:56 |
| CarlFK | David Goodger is going to ask about this in a few hours, including... | 20:56 |
| CarlFK | would he know what applies in Europe? | 20:56 |
| CarlFK | (12:55:20 PM) David Goodger: don't know. | 20:56 |
| CarlFK | (12:55:25 PM) David Goodger: I have a meeting shortly, but I'll ask him after that. | 20:56 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: OK. Thanks for passing the message on. | 20:56 |
| pboddie | I'd like to hear a legal opinion about this, certainly. | 20:57 |
| CarlFK | anything to avoid the hell I am in :) | 20:57 |
| MrTopf | I have to go | 20:58 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: The problem is that people could say that they didn't want the talk to be recorded, and if they didn't distribute the recording themselves, it's just one person's word against another. | 20:58 |
| MrTopf | need to get home | 20:58 |
| pboddie | Me too! | 20:58 |
| MrTopf | cya next time! | 20:58 |
| dboddie_work | MrTopf: Thanks for coming. | 20:58 |
| MrTopf | yw :) | 20:58 |
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| pboddie | dboddie_work: Yes, perhaps there has to be some kind of audit trail. | 20:58 |
| pboddie | dboddie_work: Although you could potentially get around that by just making everyone agree or to take their talk to another conference. | 20:59 |
| pboddie | dboddie_work: It'd be just like modern Britain: closed circuit monitoring everywhere! ;-) | 20:59 |
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| dboddie_work | pboddie: But I don't want everyone to agree that they have to be recorded. | 21:00 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: And it's probably not binding without a signature, anyway. | 21:01 |
| pboddie | dboddie_work: Well, I don't know what's best. I say that we wait for an opinion. | 21:01 |
| dboddie_work | Indeed. | 21:01 |
| dboddie_work | I'm just saying that we should be prepared to handle forms because that's likely to be the only way to create formal agreements. | 21:02 |
| pboddie | http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/07/oscon-bring-your-camcorders.html | 21:02 |
| dboddie_work | The problem isn't really that we couldn't record and upload talks, it's more that it would be unclear whether the EP society or the PSF could re-use them. | 21:04 |
| dboddie_work | I mean, you might find a talk online which you want to "remix" or use in some way, but it might be unclear whether you really can if the presenter later came along and said that they didn't want it to be recorded. | 21:05 |
| dboddie_work | I don't mind putting in extra work beforehand to remove uncertainty later. I want to avoid the problem that CarlFK has. | 21:06 |
| pboddie | I'm sure one could just play it safe and get people to sign stuff. | 21:06 |
| dboddie_work | Right. | 21:06 |
| dboddie_work | The act of signing is a lot more explicit (and legally binding) than some bloke (or bird) saying, "Yeah, you can record this." | 21:07 |
| pboddie | My approach was to avoid the possibility of someone saying that they didn't agree to being recorded because by actually giving their talk they accepted the conditions attached to giving the talk. | 21:07 |
| CarlFK | at the event, a google employee asked "why don't you setup a digitally signed web page form?" or something... | 21:07 |
| dboddie_work | pboddie: But you'd need to make the submission form handle this, which is OK, but how legally binding is it? | 21:08 |
| CarlFK | "I" have no clue how/what that is, but if it can be made part of the talk submission... good. | 21:08 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: That could work. | 21:08 |
| pboddie | I mean, presenters have to register (and obviously anyone registering can give a lightning talk), so you could actually make it part of registration. | 21:09 |
| dboddie_work | The "I have read and agreed to the terms and conditions" thing might work for registration. | 21:09 |
| pboddie | That's then backed by their credit card, which is pretty close to "good enough" authentication. | 21:09 |
| dboddie_work | Unless their secretary registers for them... | 21:09 |
| pboddie | Well, then the buck stops with them, not us. | 21:09 |
| dboddie_work | We could do the form thing - we still need some legalese - but still expect some paperwork. It's a bit like the badge situation... | 21:10 |
| pboddie | Anyway, it's time to go. | 21:11 |
| dboddie_work | OK. See you. | 21:11 |
| pboddie | See you later on! | 21:11 |
| dboddie_work | I should go, too. | 21:11 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: Thanks for dropping by. It's been useful to discuss things. | 21:11 |
| CarlFK | my pleasure | 21:12 |
| CarlFK | I am in #pycon most of the time - feel free to bother me | 21:12 |
| dboddie_work | CarlFK: I'll stay on this channel if you have anything to add, but I won't be reading it until tomorrow (later today in your time zone). | 21:12 |
| dboddie_work | Did you have any success with your VGA dongles in the end? | 21:13 |
| CarlFK | yes | 21:13 |
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| CarlFK | http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pMUz8u6E2LUY79MJpn2MuDQ&inv=carl%40personnelware.com&t=1665042432404888852 | 21:13 |
| CarlFK | column N | 21:13 |
| CarlFK | the ones with file names | 21:13 |
| dboddie_work | That's good to know. You should document what software you used. I'm sure there are others who are desperately trying to make it work. | 21:14 |
| CarlFK | haven't figured out how to combine them with the video/audio yet | 21:14 |
| CarlFK | one problem is the hardware/driver/app have to be able to deal with the vga source 'changing' (and that is where 1/2 my problems are) | 21:15 |
| CarlFK | until a week before the event, when the speaker unplugged his laptop, it would cause the driver/app to error, but not exit | 21:16 |
| CarlFK | a new transocde feature is "exit on error" | 21:16 |
| CarlFK | another "change" is resolution changing like when the spaker starts flipping things around to make the projector happy | 21:17 |
| CarlFK | in a month or 2 I may have this all worked out :) | 21:18 |
| dboddie_work | Oh well, there's always next year. :-) | 21:22 |
| dboddie_work | Anyway, got to go. See you around! | 21:23 |
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