IRC log of #europython for Tuesday, 2008-03-18

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pboddieInteresting (and fairly neutral) conference perspectives here: http://panela.blog-city.com/pyxon_2008_thoughts_and_observations.htm13:00
pboddieFrom the above: "Saw DHH briefly in attendance on Saturday. Weird."13:13
pboddieAnd more discussion on PyCon: http://www.dougma.com/archives/73#comment-54513:14
lacwho is DHH?14:45
lacDavid Heinemeier Hansson the author of rails?  or somebody else?14:49
lac37 signals is in chicago, so I don't see what's so weird about that.14:49
pboddieI guess he means Mr Hansson. As for weird, perhaps he thought that the more enthusiastic Ruby people would shun this kind of event. Bridges burned and all that.14:51
lacThe sort of people who do that, I have observed, aren't the people who go out and create wonderful and useful things.14:53
lacIt seems a pretty strong indicator for 'not-even-second-rater'-14:53
pboddieMaybe. DHH has been the source of a lot of hot air, though, but perhaps he's noticed that in many respects the Django people have overtaken on the inside.14:54
lacits odd, I always thought that turbogears was a better framework than django.  Guess you can never tell about who will be successful in these things.14:55
lacIt may be that the sort of things django is better at is the sort of things that more people want to do.14:55
lacor it could be marketing.  I always wonder.14:56
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pboddieTG relied more on "buzz" than Django, resulting in premature publications and the consequent reworking of the software.15:44
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pboddieThe Django people just stated their case and pushed one coherent message.15:45
xorAxAxTG is dead, isnt it? :)16:35
pboddieNo, it's being reborn!16:44
xorAxAxyeah, people arrange a lot of pylons and see whether the construction work works our16:46
xorAxAxout16:46
pboddieEvery year at EuroPython I consider a lightning rant about Web framework standardisation, but I never do it in the end. Too bitter!16:47
mgedminfashions come and go16:49
mgedminit was once fashionable to invent a new unit testing framework16:49
mgedminnow it's fashionable to invent an egg-based build/install/whatever tool16:49
xorAxAxmgedmin: i havent seen any setuptools competitor16:49
mgedminno, but there's a multitude of tools built on top16:49
pboddiexorAxAx: Other than all the prior art? ;-)16:49
mgedmineasy_install, virtualenv, zc.buildout, etc.16:50
mgedminthe all solve different but slightly overlapping problems16:50
xorAxAxmgedmin: easyinstall is setuptools16:50
xorAxAxvirtualenv is something else16:50
xorAxAxi think it needs even setuptools16:50
xorAxAxyep16:51
xorAxAxzc.buildout starts with a z, so i dont want to know :)16:51
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xorAxAxbuildout seems to be a combination of virtualenv and setuptools16:52
xorAxAxfeature-wise16:52
pboddieBothering to look at prior art could be a topic for another lightning rant.16:53
xorAxAx(only a bit more advanced)16:53
xorAxAxpboddie: yeah, dont forget to show the knights who say NIH NIH NIH16:53
pboddieWith a Windows logo on their shields?16:53
xorAxAxwindows actually was prior art in some cases16:54
pboddieDependency management?16:54
xorAxAxno16:55
pboddieI think my rants about people ignoring stuff like the Smart Package Manager (talk at EP 2005) are part of the public record.16:55
xorAxAxi can only think of unrelated things (that are not connected to deployment :))16:55
xorAxAxwho should be using the spm?16:56
pboddieIt was just that a lot of thought went into dependency management for stuff like Smart, and then a bunch of people start pontificating about the same thing in public as if Smart (and all the other prior art) never existed.16:57
xorAxAxsetuptools doesnt really support dependency /management/, nor? :)16:58
xorAxAxso its not NIH but ignorance16:58
pboddieThere's dependency resolution, but I don't think it covers system packages.16:58
xorAxAxit does very trivial "dependency resolution"16:59
xorAxAxwhich happens to be pretty useless in a lot of real world cases :-(16:59
pboddieI did consider making a Python-only flavour of the Debian packaging infrastructure, but it's nasty in places: ar format archives, for example.16:59
xorAxAxhmm, is ar so dirty? i imagine its just a matter of writing the tarfile.py pendant, no?17:00
pboddieIn other words, allow some kind of Python debian/rules file, so that you can just use Python to make packages.17:00
pboddieI don't know about ar, since the last time I had to deal with it manually was at university when building library files by hand.17:01
pboddieYou'd still need the dpkg stuff, though, but that's probably in Perl.17:02
xorAxAxdpkg is perl/c17:02
dboddie_workhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar_(Unix)17:03
dboddie_work"The ar format has never been standardised; modern archives are based on a common format with two known variants, BSD and GNU."17:03
pboddieWell, I guess we know which one Debian uses. ;-)17:03
xorAxAxsee, so thats not an issue :)17:04
dboddie_workOh well, there's an Easter project for you. ;-)17:04
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