| *** znapper has quit IRC | 02:01 | |
| *** pedronis has joined #europython | 10:45 | |
| *** pboddie has joined #europython | 13:00 | |
| pboddie | Interesting (and fairly neutral) conference perspectives here: http://panela.blog-city.com/pyxon_2008_thoughts_and_observations.htm | 13:00 |
|---|---|---|
| pboddie | From the above: "Saw DHH briefly in attendance on Saturday. Weird." | 13:13 |
| pboddie | And more discussion on PyCon: http://www.dougma.com/archives/73#comment-545 | 13:14 |
| lac | who is DHH? | 14:45 |
| lac | David Heinemeier Hansson the author of rails? or somebody else? | 14:49 |
| lac | 37 signals is in chicago, so I don't see what's so weird about that. | 14:49 |
| pboddie | I guess he means Mr Hansson. As for weird, perhaps he thought that the more enthusiastic Ruby people would shun this kind of event. Bridges burned and all that. | 14:51 |
| lac | The sort of people who do that, I have observed, aren't the people who go out and create wonderful and useful things. | 14:53 |
| lac | It seems a pretty strong indicator for 'not-even-second-rater'- | 14:53 |
| pboddie | Maybe. DHH has been the source of a lot of hot air, though, but perhaps he's noticed that in many respects the Django people have overtaken on the inside. | 14:54 |
| lac | its odd, I always thought that turbogears was a better framework than django. Guess you can never tell about who will be successful in these things. | 14:55 |
| lac | It may be that the sort of things django is better at is the sort of things that more people want to do. | 14:55 |
| lac | or it could be marketing. I always wonder. | 14:56 |
| * lac is away: lunch | 14:59 | |
| * lac is back | 14:59 | |
| * lac is away: lunch for real now | 15:00 | |
| *** lenscape has joined #europython | 15:01 | |
| pboddie | TG relied more on "buzz" than Django, resulting in premature publications and the consequent reworking of the software. | 15:44 |
| *** mgedmin has joined #europython | 15:44 | |
| pboddie | The Django people just stated their case and pushed one coherent message. | 15:45 |
| xorAxAx | TG is dead, isnt it? :) | 16:35 |
| pboddie | No, it's being reborn! | 16:44 |
| xorAxAx | yeah, people arrange a lot of pylons and see whether the construction work works our | 16:46 |
| xorAxAx | out | 16:46 |
| pboddie | Every year at EuroPython I consider a lightning rant about Web framework standardisation, but I never do it in the end. Too bitter! | 16:47 |
| mgedmin | fashions come and go | 16:49 |
| mgedmin | it was once fashionable to invent a new unit testing framework | 16:49 |
| mgedmin | now it's fashionable to invent an egg-based build/install/whatever tool | 16:49 |
| xorAxAx | mgedmin: i havent seen any setuptools competitor | 16:49 |
| mgedmin | no, but there's a multitude of tools built on top | 16:49 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: Other than all the prior art? ;-) | 16:49 |
| mgedmin | easy_install, virtualenv, zc.buildout, etc. | 16:50 |
| mgedmin | the all solve different but slightly overlapping problems | 16:50 |
| xorAxAx | mgedmin: easyinstall is setuptools | 16:50 |
| xorAxAx | virtualenv is something else | 16:50 |
| xorAxAx | i think it needs even setuptools | 16:50 |
| xorAxAx | yep | 16:51 |
| xorAxAx | zc.buildout starts with a z, so i dont want to know :) | 16:51 |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 16:52 | |
| xorAxAx | buildout seems to be a combination of virtualenv and setuptools | 16:52 |
| xorAxAx | feature-wise | 16:52 |
| pboddie | Bothering to look at prior art could be a topic for another lightning rant. | 16:53 |
| xorAxAx | (only a bit more advanced) | 16:53 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: yeah, dont forget to show the knights who say NIH NIH NIH | 16:53 |
| pboddie | With a Windows logo on their shields? | 16:53 |
| xorAxAx | windows actually was prior art in some cases | 16:54 |
| pboddie | Dependency management? | 16:54 |
| xorAxAx | no | 16:55 |
| pboddie | I think my rants about people ignoring stuff like the Smart Package Manager (talk at EP 2005) are part of the public record. | 16:55 |
| xorAxAx | i can only think of unrelated things (that are not connected to deployment :)) | 16:55 |
| xorAxAx | who should be using the spm? | 16:56 |
| pboddie | It was just that a lot of thought went into dependency management for stuff like Smart, and then a bunch of people start pontificating about the same thing in public as if Smart (and all the other prior art) never existed. | 16:57 |
| xorAxAx | setuptools doesnt really support dependency /management/, nor? :) | 16:58 |
| xorAxAx | so its not NIH but ignorance | 16:58 |
| pboddie | There's dependency resolution, but I don't think it covers system packages. | 16:58 |
| xorAxAx | it does very trivial "dependency resolution" | 16:59 |
| xorAxAx | which happens to be pretty useless in a lot of real world cases :-( | 16:59 |
| pboddie | I did consider making a Python-only flavour of the Debian packaging infrastructure, but it's nasty in places: ar format archives, for example. | 16:59 |
| xorAxAx | hmm, is ar so dirty? i imagine its just a matter of writing the tarfile.py pendant, no? | 17:00 |
| pboddie | In other words, allow some kind of Python debian/rules file, so that you can just use Python to make packages. | 17:00 |
| pboddie | I don't know about ar, since the last time I had to deal with it manually was at university when building library files by hand. | 17:01 |
| pboddie | You'd still need the dpkg stuff, though, but that's probably in Perl. | 17:02 |
| xorAxAx | dpkg is perl/c | 17:02 |
| dboddie_work | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar_(Unix) | 17:03 |
| dboddie_work | "The ar format has never been standardised; modern archives are based on a common format with two known variants, BSD and GNU." | 17:03 |
| pboddie | Well, I guess we know which one Debian uses. ;-) | 17:03 |
| xorAxAx | see, so thats not an issue :) | 17:04 |
| dboddie_work | Oh well, there's an Easter project for you. ;-) | 17:04 |
| *** mgedmin has joined #europython | 17:11 | |
| *** mgedmin_ has joined #europython | 18:19 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 18:24 | |
| *** mgedmin_ is now known as mgedmin | 18:24 | |
| *** pboddie has left #europython | 18:58 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 19:46 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #europython | 19:49 | |
| *** pedronis has quit IRC | 21:02 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 21:39 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 4.0.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!