IRC log of #meego for Saturday, 2011-10-15

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digitalskyanother question about mic201:01
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digitalskyanyone know why the mic2 deb package installs the main scripts into /usr/local/bin and not /usr/bin?  Is there anyway to change it so that they install in the latter directory?  (I looked at debian/rules and Makefile but couldn't figure out why)01:02
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ejones2Hi all, wondering where I can get an image for the latest netbook images.  I see there is an update for netbooks 1.2.0.3.  When i look at http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/latest/images/ I only see two arm builds, no netbook.02:16
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CosmoHillcyas02:59
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eplanitwhat is the best source of information for downloading, customizing, building meego ivi?08:37
eplaniti'm on ubuntu, btw08:38
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pebcakmoin btw11:21
Stskeepsmoin11:21
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b3hnamIs meego available for tablet Archs 7c home ? ( arm )11:49
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dm8tbrb3hnam: that's a rockchip, isn't it?11:58
b3hnamdm8tbr: rockship ??11:59
dm8tbrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockchip11:59
b3hnamdm8tbr: yes ARM 9 CPU by Rockchip12:02
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b3hnamdm8tbr: RK2818 800 MHz12:03
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dm8tbryour best bet would be cooking your own hardware adaptation based on Mer for armv612:04
dm8tbrerr armv5 even12:05
Stskeepsarm9 is like armv4t12:05
Stskeepsisn't it12:05
* Stskeeps gets confused12:05
Stskeepsah, yes, armv512:05
dm8tbrthe all knowing pile says ARMv5TEJ12:05
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Stskeepsthere's no armv5 mer (yet..)12:07
dm8tbrah, then driving armv5 too :)12:07
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b3hnamSorry a little I confused :)12:08
b3hnamIs it it available ?12:08
b3hnamHow can I start ?12:08
dm8tbrno it's not12:09
dm8tbrthere would be lot's of work12:09
dm8tbrit's possible though, with skills and time12:09
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b3hnamdm8tbr: is any document for this ?12:10
b3hnamdm8tbr: How can I start ?12:10
Stskeepsis those devices even hackable12:10
Stskeeps?12:10
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dm8tbrStskeeps: rockchip usually is12:20
Stskeepsok12:20
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Stskeepsi'm actually planning on a armv4t port because i'd like to do some dumphone experiments with my freerunner12:20
dm8tbrarchos provide kernel sources (a rarity when it comes to RK hardware...)12:20
Stskeepsjust to gain experience in that12:21
Stskeepsbut frankly, it's really easy for people to start a port :P12:21
thiagoQt doesn't support ARMv4T12:21
thiagothe atomics may not compile12:21
Stskeepsah12:21
thiagoif that happens, ping me and I can take a look12:21
thiagothere might be a solution12:21
Stskeepswill do12:21
Stskeepsdm8tbr: https://gitorious.org/merproject/project-core/blobs/master/armv6l/_config.in , https://gitorious.org/merproject/project-core/blobs/master/armv6l/packages.xml.in12:22
Stskeepsdm8tbr: that's practically it + some obs handwaving12:22
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dm8tbrStskeeps: that's for b3hnam if he wants :)12:23
Stskeeps:nod:12:23
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dm8tbrStskeeps: I don't have RK hardware even12:23
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Stskeepsdm8tbr: how cheap are those home tablets anyway12:23
dm8tbrthe home line is cheap chines crap, prolly below 100 currency units (eu/us)12:23
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Stskeepsok12:24
b3hnamdm8tbr: tnx12:24
* dm8tbr prefers the 'Internet Tablet' line with the TI SoCs12:24
Stskeepsdm8tbr: did you ever get new archos tablet after it got lost?12:24
dm8tbrStskeeps: no, I still have a A32 that is also gen812:24
Stskeepsk12:24
dm8tbrit's a pain as it's so small though ;)12:25
dm8tbrI was thinking of getting an gen9, that's OMAP412:25
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b3hnamdm8tbr: should I port to ARMv4T ?12:30
b3hnamdm8tbr: where should I start ? I am not a meego user and I am new in meego12:30
b3hnamis there any documentation ?12:30
dm8tbrb3hnam: it's an armv5tej12:30
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dm8tbrb3hnam: join #mer it's more on topic there12:30
b3hnamtnx12:31
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berndhsmorning16:27
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LilltigerI am trying to mount a NFS share on my Nokia N9, but when mounting as root i get a permission denied from bindresvport, but i cant find an /etc/hosts.allow file, so where is the rights for the deamons set?16:39
SpeedEvilRoot does not on n9 have all permissions.16:41
SpeedEvilIt is constrained by the security infrastructure.16:41
Lilltigerbut why would the include the NFS module if you are unable to use it?16:41
SpeedEvilAlso - you may find better response over in #harmattan16:42
Lilltigerok16:42
SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Activities_blocked_by_the_N9_and_N950_security_policy16:42
Lilltigerohh that sucks :(16:43
LilltigerNokia is such retards, add a crappy "security" function that all it does is prevent users from doing perfectly valid things. While hardly making it harder for attakers to screw you up.16:45
RST38hLilltiger: You are not their customer. Phone service providers are.16:45
RST38hLilltiger: You are the goods :)16:45
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CosmoHillhey RST38h and berndhs17:57
CosmoHilland SpeedEvil17:58
berndhsanother exciting day17:59
npm_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV2QJiDGQvI&feature=related17:59
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npmtoo bad the watch is probably bigger than one of those little HP webos phones18:00
npmhttp://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Activities_blocked_by_the_N9_and_N950_security_policy is only half the story and half-the-perspective and somewhat misrepresents things IMHO18:04
npmfor example in "Privileges not available" -- aren't those privs specifiable in an aegis manifest?18:05
npmHow else would you create a secure platform?18:05
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SpeedEvilSome of them are, I think, some are not.18:09
SpeedEvilIt's complex, and that page as I understand it is slightly misleading.18:09
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SpeedEvilThere are - as I understand it - three seperate classes.18:09
npmi can understand being pissed off by being blocked by stuff all the time18:09
SpeedEvilThe set of permissions you can get by running your app on the command line.18:09
npmthat is simply not going to happen18:09
SpeedEvil(without proper installation)18:10
npmthere is no manifest for a commandline18:10
npmhow can you validate and write down all it's permissions w/o manifest?18:10
SpeedEvilThe set of permissions you can get if you compile it yourself, and generate the package yourself.18:10
SpeedEvilThe set of permissions you can get through OVI.18:10
SpeedEvilAnd lastly - the set of permissions you can't ever get.18:10
npmwhat is annoying is that there isn't a real root account that can simply bypass everything, for debug/devel purposes18:10
SpeedEvil(without replacing the kernel)18:10
SpeedEvilThis last set includes stuff like making the notification light flash, loading modules, ...18:11
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npmhm  so does ovi limit the set of permissions too restrictive?? seems like some of the perms shouldn't be frobbed by an app, such as certificates etc18:11
npmseems like if you want to load modules and stuff, just run meego ce ...18:13
DocScrutinizerdevelsh permissions == OVIstore permissions18:13
DocScrutinizerand javispedro's page tried to list only those permissions that are *NOT* available either way18:13
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npmbut i see stuff in the list i thought could be accessed e.g..  GRP::pulse ... i can see why GRP::pulse-rt wouldn't be. Easiest DOS on the planet.18:15
DocScrutinizerand forbidding loading of modules is completely insane in my book, at least if those modules are "available" from Nokia. Creating own modules OTOH and loading them obviously defeats all security18:15
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npmyeah. perhaps it's a bug? harmattan is quite all-singing and dancing so you can't expect everything to be perfect right away.18:17
DocScrutinizernot allowing a user app to request a certain LED Pattern* form mce via dbus msg is plain idiocy, as that's why mce got this function so arbitrary apps can make the LED blink patterns defined in mce.ini, in a controlled clearly defined and threat-safe manner18:18
npmwhat i see in the list of forbidden stuff is anything that could undermine "resource policy manager" ... and dbus would be a big part of that.18:19
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npmseems like a bug where they need to be convinced it's a needed function and then make a change to add a limited way of accessing just that fnality w/o fully exposing dbus18:19
npmfor example GRP::audio is on there because you're supposed to go through pulseaudio (the suck)18:20
DocScrutinizerthat's all already there, it's exactly this functionality aka message that is forbidden on dbus18:20
npmhm. well then that sounds like even more of a bug18:21
DocScrutinizera bug in paegis18:21
DocScrutinizeryes18:21
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DocScrutinizerand that's what this page is all about18:21
npmnote that i'm not happy with all of it. like i'd love to be able to access GRP::audio directly and not have pulseaudio suckage in there at all18:21
npmbut if i want that, i guess i can put meego-ce on it.18:21
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npmlike this little bit of awesomeness: http://midi-clorianos.blogspot.com/2011/10/vmpk-fluidsynth-010-released.html would be even more awesome if pulseaudio could step out of the way and quit using the precious CPU as a mixer18:23
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npm(the app makes a good handwarmer as well)18:24
berndhswhat I dont like about all these trusted entity security models is that there are too damn many trusted agents18:24
berndhsits not a political problem, its engineering, this can never work18:24
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npmnot sure if i get what you mean.... too many ones to learn so nobody can become expert at any particular one?18:26
berndhsno, too many to stay trustworthy18:27
berndhssome of them will behave badly, its just a matter of time18:27
npmmicrosoft  seems to have done fine w/ that model :-)18:28
berndhsthis isn't a specific aegis issue, it is about the concept of having agents that are perpetually trusted18:28
berndhsno its not fine, it breaks every day18:28
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berndhscompany data and personal data are compromised all the time, i don't call that "working" for the security models18:28
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npmi know it's not fine, but nobody cares. doctors regularly kill their patients and nobody cares either...18:29
berndhsright18:29
npmbut we're here because we don't believe in that18:29
berndhsbut the concept of trusted agents is broken from the start18:29
npmbut i can't expect swine to suddenly stop grunting and digging in shit18:30
berndhsI do expect security professionals to eventually admit that their model is broken18:30
npmdoctors don't admit their model is broken., capitalists don't admit their model is broken. why would security professionals. they make money on their own broken systems they create18:31
berndhsbecause they are professionals ?18:31
npmyes, that is the definition of professionalism18:31
berndhsairplane engineers admit when their aircraft dont fly18:32
npmit's right up there with whore18:32
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npmso when people stop getting paid to lie or create broken systems they profit from... that's when change will happen18:32
berndhsor when someone can show a system that isn't as broken18:32
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berndhsi don't care who makes how much money off it, that's fine with me18:33
npm" airplane engineers admit when their aircraft dont fly " -- you mean like http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-national/virtual-fence-fiasco-along-u-s-mexico-border18:33
npmairplane engineers can't even build a fence18:34
berndhsyeah its not an airplane18:35
dm8tbrI doubt that was aeronautical engineers...18:35
npmand our own military can't keep viruses out of their remote controlled drones. but are totally covering up the extent of the fiasco18:35
npmand drones are the domain of airplane engineers18:35
berndhsi am sure the drones fly18:35
npmyes, one day they'll fly and explode somewhere they aren't supposed to18:36
* RST38h yawns and notes how history repeats itself18:37
berndhsthe way out of this is to admit that there will be failures, and engineer the system to deal with them18:37
berndhsrather than pretend you can make a failure-proof boundary18:38
npmi think that's implicit. the difference is that reality needs to be marketed as well.18:38
berndhsyou will have passwords compromised, and illegal immigration18:39
berndhsit's not implicit, most people act as if total security can be achieved if the walls are high enough18:39
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npmi'm not a proponent of the fence. it's just a good example of what happens when "aeronautical engineers" of the US military-industrial complex get involved in engineering.18:39
npmthey should stick to $1000.00 toilet seats18:40
RST38hhigh enough walls do work, you know?18:40
berndhsnot forever18:40
RST38hespecially if you have got a few gatling guns on them18:41
berndhslook at the Great Wall of China, look at the Berlin Wall18:41
RST38hfor as long as the other side does not figure out how to traverse them18:41
berndhsthe Berlin Wall had plenty of machine guns, it failed18:41
RST38hBoth GWoC and the Berlin Wall were built to keep people INSIDE18:41
RST38hSo, bad comparison.18:42
berndhsthe Berlin Wall was made for both directions18:42
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RST38hberndhs: not really, no.18:42
berndhsit didn't keep people inside, and it didn't protect the state18:42
RST38hberndhs: it did keep people inside18:42
RST38hberndhs: for as long as the state that wanted to keep them inside existed18:42
berndhsfor a relatively short time18:43
berndhsthen the state collapsed18:43
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RST38hberndhs: which had nothign to do with the wall itself18:43
berndhsyes it did actually18:43
RST38h...and just shows us how important it is to see the whole picture18:43
berndhsthey failure was more massive because they relied on near-total containment of the people18:43
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RST38hyou do know that the Berlin was has been located...ummm...inside the country? :)18:44
berndhsI know where these walls were yes18:44
RST38hand that GDR had large boundaries with other countries, unwalled?18:44
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berndhsseen them, lived on the western side of it18:44
berndhsyou don't have to educate me on european geography :)18:45
RST38hthen why continue fapping at the symbol that, at the end, had nothing to do with GDR's demise?18:45
npmberndhs: finally thought of a good example of aircraft engineers not admitting failure (because it is part of military contracting where there are no checks and balances on the lies being told,and no free market and press to vet their bullshit): http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/08/despite_65_billion_investment.html18:45
berndhsthe wall is an example of their strategy18:46
berndhsand that strategy did have to do with their demise18:46
RST38hthe wall was a tactic, not a trategy18:47
RST38hthey built it in haste to prevent berliners crossing over into West Berlin18:47
berndhsyeah, tactic for several decades :)18:47
RST38hcorrect18:47
berndhsok tactic that became strategy18:47
RST38hin fact, I can hardly thing of *anything* Soviets or their allies have ever donethat could qualify as strategy18:48
RST38hWhich is probably one of reasons they so utterly failed at the end18:48
npmactually the journalists have been doing their jobs, but the corrupticrats keep trying to sell us expensive junk "In 2009, the Washington Post noted early structural deficiencies and computer flaws with the F-22s, as well as problems with the jet’s radar-absorbent coating, which required costly and time-consuming maintenance."18:48
npmThe fleet of 158 F-22 planes, at $412 million each, has yet to see a single day of combat.18:48
berndhsSoviet strategy wasn't that much different from Czarist strategy18:48
RST38h70 years of plugging the holes with corks of various sizes and shapes...18:48
berndhsits all imperial Russia basically18:49
* RST38h has not lived in Imperial Russia, so he cannot relate18:49
berndhspretty much the same as Imperial Anything :)18:49
dm8tbrwow I didn't expect #meego to deteriorate into #politics ...18:50
RST38hAlthough good old Nikolai II must have screwed things up pretty badly, to end up the way he did18:50
berndhsberndhs: right, there isn't enough competition18:50
berndhsnpm: not enough competition18:50
RST38hberndhs: IMperial Britain worked out pretty well for a long while18:50
berndhsRST38h: depends on who you ask18:50
RST38hberndhs: So did Ottoman and Austrohungarian empires18:51
berndhsfor the imperial side sure, and to some extent for the imperial citizens18:51
RST38hberndhs: I am not going to "ask", just looking at how long it existed and how many problems (unrest, civil wars, etc) it had18:51
RST38hberndhs: that is the only side there is, if we are talking about imperial success18:52
npmthere also isn't enough competition in OSes. and so much force to kill off viable ones before they can challenge the system18:52
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berndhsanyway, that's what bothers me about these security systems, that they don't want to deal with the inevitable failures and pretend there won't be any18:54
berndhshow many trusted certificates are hard coded in all browsers, and how of those many companies have you even heard of ?18:55
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npmtrue. but is it really a problem anymore?? http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/10/meego-harmattan-kernel-sources-published-nokia-n9-n950/18:55
RST38hberndhs: Sorry, are you talking about Aegis?18:55
npm"So now you can compile this kernel, add the hack to disable aegis, flash the kernel and what you have is a Aegis security free MeeGo Harmattan Device."18:55
npmnext!18:55
berndhsi am talking about the approach to security that assumes trusted agents will stay trustworthy18:56
RST38hnpm: sorry it does not work this way18:56
npmwhy?18:56
npmsame way it would for meego ce.18:56
RST38hnpm: your userland will check kernel checksum and stop working when the checksum is wrong.18:56
npmof course would it work w/ ovi store? no18:56
RST38hsomeone tried already18:56
RST38hberndhs: Then you should reconsider what you think is a goal of this system18:56
npmbut you wouldn't be running harmattan stuff on this non-harmattan systenm18:57
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berndhsRST38h: ti will fail for the state goals and for the real goals :)18:57
RST38hberndhs: Will you agree with the statement "Success of X is measured by how well X addresses its implementation goal"?18:57
npmbut you could for example, use it to run a real-time midi synth without pulseaudio preventing real time audio18:57
berndhss/state/stated/18:57
infobotberndhs meant: RST38h: ti will fail for the stated goals and for the real goals :)18:57
RST38hberndhs: but will you agree with the statement above?18:58
SpeedEvilnpm: currently 'aegisfs' goes read-only.18:58
berndhswhat is the point of that? I am talking about a concept, not aegis in particular18:59
SpeedEvilnpm: which makes basically all messaging and SMS stop working.18:59
npmi never said it would work as a phone :-)18:59
npmmy example was that it might work as a synth. of course why use a n9/n950 for that when you can buy a cheap x86 tablet and do the same19:00
berndhsunless of course you assume the goals of aegis have nothing to do with security of any kind19:00
RST38hberndhs: my statement applies to concepts as well19:00
RST38hberndhs: There is a GOAL all these security schemes are trying to reach19:00
SpeedEvilberndhs: Aegis - as implemented on the n9 is sort-of-half-done.19:00
RST38hAnd they actually do. It is just not the same goal as the one you have in mind.19:00
SpeedEvilberndhs: It neither implements its final goals - partly due to policy - or can be 'gotten out of the way' in an acceptable manner.19:01
npmit is always good to have a specific "threat model" in place before designing a security sysstem19:01
berndhsbut this discussion illustrates the wider context - everyone has already given up19:01
npmso perhaps that needs to be better defined so as to drive a correct architecture19:01
SpeedEvilThe threat model was concieved at the time that aegis was imagined to be rolling out to half a billion phones.19:01
npmbut won't meltemi eventually roll out to all those phones?19:02
RST38hberndhs: not everybody19:02
npmand woulnd't it probably have some derivative of aegis (he speculates, wishing he knew more about meltemi or could work on it :-) )19:02
RST38hberndhs: The lawyers have not given up and all these schemes serve the one and only purpose - to satisfy the lawyers by having documentation saying "we have got a security system in place"19:03
RST38hSo, yes, Aegis et al reach their goal19:03
SpeedEvilI'd pay a modest amount more for a phone with a properly implemented user security system.19:03
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SpeedEvilAegis has about 99% of the stuff to get there.19:03
npmnot really lawyers, but the carriers that pay them and expect some security in place19:03
RST38hSpeed: You and another dozen of geeks19:03
SpeedEvilRST38h: Indeed19:04
RST38hSpeed: On the other side of the scales is the rest of humanity19:04
RST38hSpeed: I went to a BestBuy store in the US yesterday19:04
* SpeedEvil needs to eat more pies then.19:04
RST38hSpeed: half the ANdroid tablets on display are logged into some peoples' accounts19:04
SpeedEvilRST38h: Joy.19:04
RST38hSpeed: Note that I could even BUY apps from the ANdroid market19:04
SpeedEvilDid you?19:04
RST38hSpeed: Nah19:05
RST38hSpeed: No reason to make idiots' life even worse than it is :)19:05
SpeedEvilI love the recent ruling in the US about cellphones.19:05
npmwhich19:05
SpeedEvilArrested for anything - the cellphone is in 'plain sight' - and the cops can dig through the entire contents if they choose.19:06
SpeedEvilIt's an 'open box' of information.19:06
RST38hwhat if it is not in plain sight?19:06
RST38hwill they still be able to dig through it, just not in plain sight? :)19:06
npmoh that19:06
berndhsthe trick then is to arrest you while you're talking on the phone19:06
npmyeah. sounds like they've created a market for a secured phone with an encrypted filesystem19:07
berndhsand the reason for the arrest is that you crossed the street while on the phone19:07
RST38hSpeed: Anyway, it is just part of the wider trend. The "law enforcement" has got all the power of legislative government branch on its side, legislating laws "to make things safer"19:07
npmsounds like a reason to take the data out of plain sight19:07
RST38hSpeed: The rest of us have got nothing.19:08
npmand they can just look at your lockscreen19:08
RST38hSpeed: So, the other side keeps pushing general population back,until a breakage point, I guess19:08
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RST38hSpeed: Which has been nicely illustrated by the recent UK riots :)19:09
npmor flying airplanes into skyscrapers19:09
RST38hnpm:in a way,although there was a different mechanism at work there19:09
npmnot really. USA killed 30,000 retreating soldiers in Gulf War -- soldiers that were marching back to baghdad to overthrow saddam hussein19:10
npmwhich would have resulted in nationalized oil companies intead of us oil companies in iraq19:11
berndhsi dont think that had much to do with it19:11
npmhttp://nielsmayer.com/roller//NielsMayer/entry/bottom_line_regarding_war_on19:11
RST38hThe keyword is "would"19:11
RST38hYou do not really know.19:11
berndhsairplanes in skyscrapers is more of a Saudi issue19:11
RST38hAnyway, 30k able-bodied muslim men less is a good thing if you are viewing situation as an occupying force19:12
RST38hberndhs: cause by the same problems in Saudi Arabia19:12
npmbut they were retreating under a "white flag"19:13
RST38hberndhs: Saudis were just smart enough to channel their young males' anger toward the US. For now.19:13
berndhsyeah, there is too much money to be made in oil, otherwise the whole region could be ignored19:13
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npmand the "basra uprising" which was iraq's own arab spring. was put down w/ a lot of US assistance.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_uprisings_in_Iraq19:14
RST38hberndhs: until they come streaming across your borders of course.19:14
RST38hnpm: Saddam has been American lapdog for a while, as well as Osama (to lesser degree), so, not sure why are you even quoting these19:15
berndhsif Mexico had a decent economy, the US wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem19:15
RST38hberndhs: Mexico *has* a decent economy for a third world country.19:15
berndhssure, but not compared to the US19:16
RST38hberndhs: just got surplus of low quality uneducated work force19:16
berndhsI lived along that border too19:16
RST38hberndhs: you know, how this can be fixed one of TWO ways... ;)19:16
RST38hand the second one appears to be in progress just about now...19:16
npmRST38h: in response and evidence against "<berndhs> i dont think that had much to do with it"19:17
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berndhsi don't think bin Laden's friends had a iraqi civilians in mind19:18
npmyou frustrate the people enough and everybody loses. it's not like the french revolution was "clean and easy"19:18
berndhsif the US acted nice and benevolent, people would still hate them just because they are bigger and stronger19:20
npmberndhs: they absolutely did have iraq in mind. "Al-Qaeda ideologues envision a complete break from all foreign influences in Muslim countries"19:20
Bostikberndhs: I suspect you're mixing hate and envy19:21
Stskeeps##politics , people19:21
the-bossStskeeps: Error: "#politics" is not a valid command.19:21
RST38hIraq wasn't even a muslim country under Saddam. Was pretty secular.19:21
npmthe 1998 declaration of war against the US specificially cited the gulf war19:21
npmthe uprisings weren't secular19:21
npmmy college friend, Danny Pearl, died as a journalist trying to get to the bottom of all this...19:24
CosmoHillwhat is "the-boss", it doesn't seem a very smart bot19:30
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lbtCosmoHill: it's not a smart bot, it's an echo service19:59
* CosmoHill giggles at some of the P4 based crap scan are trying to clear20:02
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* CosmoHill wonders if he could be a HPC consultant23:05
Venemo_webchatCosmoHill: wut is a HPC?23:05
CosmoHillHigh Performance Computing; that will be £523:06
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ZogGhello23:35
ZogGis there an option to share internet from laptop to n9 under linux?23:36
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thiagoZogG: you need to ask in #harmattan23:39
ZogGthnx23:40
ZogGthough meego maemo and there have same people =)23:40
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thiagoconfigure your networking to route through your laptop then23:45
thiagohow are you connected to the laptop?23:45
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