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| * CosmoHill grumbles about his hayfever pills | 00:06 | |
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| jedix | Anyone know why rpcbind and friends won't start on boot for me? | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| jedix | in meego 1.2 | 00:07 |
| CosmoHill | are the services disabled or set not to start on boot? | 00:07 |
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| Stskeeps | jedix: NFS isn't exactly working in meego | 00:08 |
| Stskeeps | not a FEA#, afaik | 00:08 |
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| lbt | jedix: Aard has nfs on c.obs IIRC | 00:18 |
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| auke | meego's kernel doesn't enable nfs | 00:20 |
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| * lbt goes looking for the registry setting... :) | 00:26 | |
| lbt | hmm he's not built a kernel on c.obs yet either.... | 00:27 |
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| vgrade | evening | 01:47 |
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| CosmoHill | hello vgrade | 02:13 |
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| Termana | morning | 03:06 |
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| berndhs | Termana is here, time for dinner | 03:16 |
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| wazd | hello all | 11:36 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Situation at my workplace in Sunnyvale just keeps getting more ugly: http://wl4.peer360.com/b/hjdv5csf5lEbR3N08jzL/main.asp?hl=105502532**** | 11:49 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | It's bad enough that there are netbooks running Windows showing a closed loop featuring Valtteri talking about MeeGo in the meanwhile. (This is NOT Valtteri's doing, I know.) | 11:50 |
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| lcuk | so success amongst the other stuff yesterday. | 13:49 |
| * lcuk wrote first .spec file | 13:49 | |
| timoph | lbt: anything that someone (e.g. me) can help with the formeego.org effort? | 13:49 |
| timoph | lbt: yay! | 13:50 |
| timoph | s/lbt/lcuk/ | 13:50 |
| infobot | timoph meant: lcuk: yay! | 13:50 |
| timoph | :D | 13:50 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Directlyorusing spectacle? | 13:50 |
| lcuk | timoph, the packages are building, but missing some components | 13:50 |
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| lbt | timoph: there must be... | 13:50 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, short, simple direct ones | 13:50 |
| lcuk | I just started with the .tar.gz that I would submit to maemo autobuilder | 13:50 |
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| lcuk | and very simple .spec file outside | 13:51 |
| timoph | lbt: could someone involved with it setup a wikipage or something so that people would know how/where to contribute | 13:51 |
| lcuk | timoph, I think it is stillbeing digested | 13:51 |
| lbt | phone ... bbiam | 13:52 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, once I wrote the .spec and submitted it | 13:52 |
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| lcuk | it was a case of tweaking and reading the build log | 13:52 |
| lcuk | so really no different to autobuilder | 13:52 |
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| lcuk | what difference to meego would it make if aegis were fully open and implemented on meego core? | 13:55 |
| lcuk | ie for any of the uxes | 13:55 |
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| timoph | lcuk: I thought it is -> https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security | 13:58 |
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| Jaffa | Indeed, although "(some of) the architects" have said it's not appropriate for MeeGo anymore | 13:59 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Have LF been clear that they're happy with COBS and repo.pub.meego.com containing installable packages? | 14:00 |
| lbt | no | 14:05 |
| lcuk | thanks timoph | 14:05 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: So basing a solution around that would be risky, but perhaps a stepping stone? | 14:13 |
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| chem|st | hello! | 14:14 |
| lbt | Jaffa: the stated problem and solution aren't consistent IMHO | 14:14 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Having apps.formeego.org provide OCS info to installers on device to install packages and repos from repo.pub.meego.com seems easy but, as you say, inconsistent. | 14:15 |
| lbt | since meego.com will actually distribute the binaries | 14:15 |
| lbt | they've removed the minor threat of linking whilst retaining the major of distributing.... | 14:16 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Almost like the whole thing hascome from lawyers without an appropriate understanding of the Internet and no feedback/filtering fromLF folks who do | 14:16 |
| lbt | so IMHO ... either this is anti-H or c.obs will be next | 14:16 |
| * timoph nods | 14:16 | |
| lcuk | Jaffa, side topic, https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=attitude&project=home%3Ajaffa adding .spec file at that level (should) allow the package to be buildable for n9x0-ce too | 14:16 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Indeed, one of the things onmy TODO :) | 14:17 |
| lcuk | lol | 14:17 |
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| * Jaffa bemoans the lack of TSG leadership, or even visibility, on this. | 14:18 | |
| Jaffa | But then the Internet's put me in a grumpy mood today | 14:19 |
| lcuk | well you were on holiday :P | 14:19 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: ;-) | 14:19 |
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| Stskeeps | the thought if to fork or fight does occasionally pop up. | 14:19 |
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| Jaffa | But at what level? | 14:20 |
| Jaffa | Maybe we could set up a ForMeeGo organisation & council ;-) | 14:20 |
| vvaltone | what? mount an assault on LF HQ? | 14:20 |
| Stskeeps | fighting=argue and making an effort to change things | 14:21 |
| lbt | "vote for option3" | 14:21 |
| * lbt considers making it a proposition | 14:21 | |
| Stskeeps | the only place the project really works is on the factory floor, management seems missing and invisible | 14:22 |
| X-Fade | I'd feel more for community run project with LF as trademark holder and compliance body? | 14:22 |
| lbt | X-Fade: yep ... that's option 3 | 14:22 |
| Jaffa | Because LF's cpmpliance process was really open to feedback? | 14:22 |
| X-Fade | Unless LF gets more than the 2 or 3 people working on MeeGo now. | 14:22 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: i've succesfully gotten things changed, though | 14:22 |
| Stskeeps | on technical stuff | 14:23 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Indeed. Getting Arjan et al over to the shadow-project would be good | 14:23 |
| Stskeeps | i think a CE style thing is more appropiate since there's still something about having a good common meego core | 14:24 |
| Jaffa | True | 14:24 |
| Stskeeps | and then focus on the open development of that | 14:24 |
| * Stskeeps doesn't really care for the UX'es | 14:24 | |
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| Jaffa | fd.o already deals with .desktop standards et al | 14:25 |
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| Stskeeps | problem is always how to delimit meego core :) | 14:26 |
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| * lbt has an idea ... as usual | 14:26 | |
| timoph | :D | 14:26 |
| lbt | back to the trim down core option | 14:26 |
| Jaffa | Various bits of the project seem out of touch, or control. Management/leadership, meego-qa@, ecosystem management, ... | 14:27 |
| lbt | then make the UXes and CE projects to build against core | 14:27 |
| lbt | Jaffa: and that's the problem | 14:27 |
| lbt | idea's are useless | 14:27 |
| lbt | unless we can have some organisational leadership | 14:27 |
| timoph | yep | 14:27 |
| Stskeeps | (+visible) | 14:28 |
| lbt | putting MeeGo project into an nfp and setting up a new TSG | 14:28 |
| lbt | (same as the old one for now) | 14:28 |
| Jaffa | NFP = Not Fit for Purpose? | 14:28 |
| lbt | not for profit | 14:29 |
| * Stskeeps is inclined towards a MeeGo reconstructed approach where we show, with code and documented procedures how things should be done | 14:29 | |
| lbt | yep... | 14:29 |
| Stskeeps | preparing meego 2.0 ;) | 14:29 |
| lbt | set that up as formeego.org ... nfp... reuse copies of the infra.... link to old infra | 14:29 |
| lbt | setup TSG, establish quorum rules ... invite Imad, and give him seniority | 14:30 |
| Jaffa | Call it Project SG or aomething | 14:31 |
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| * Stskeeps votes for Mer. | 14:32 | |
| * Stskeeps runs | 14:32 | |
| sivang | anybody knows how to add meego repos to n950? | 14:32 |
| Stskeeps | #harmattan | 14:32 |
| the-boss | Stskeeps: Error: "harmattan" is not a valid command. | 14:32 |
| lcuk | sivang, http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS | 14:32 |
| lcuk | it is noted in there how to do it | 14:32 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: oh thahnks | 14:32 |
| sivang | thank you lcuk | 14:32 |
| lcuk | since jaffa and lardman created an ecellent getting started | 14:32 |
| Jaffa | Architects have first comment on Technical matters | 14:32 |
| * sivang notes this is the best device Nokia has produced after the successful N900. :) | 14:33 | |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, why push everything n950 to #harmattan? | 14:33 |
| sivang | I had tears in my eyes to the image of the amazing multitasking, specifically navigatin and closing tasks | 14:33 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: that's where people are | 14:33 |
| Jaffa | Trolls too, tho' | 14:33 |
| timoph | lcuk: it really isn't on topic here | 14:33 |
| lcuk | are we not here also? | 14:33 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: but if we keep it here, we show how good meego is :) | 14:33 |
| lcuk | timoph, from the obs side we are | 14:33 |
| * sivang moves to #harmattan | 14:33 | |
| timoph | true | 14:33 |
| sivang | hmm I can't join | 14:34 |
| sivang | odd | 14:34 |
| * timoph tries not to start yet another what is meego debate :) | 14:34 | |
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| lcuk | sivang, what app are you wanting to create, or do you just want repositories to download | 14:35 |
| * sivang needs an armhlv7 skype deb | 14:35 | |
| sivang | :-) | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | so, how about this.. we start out with the objective of meego 2.0 design, organisationally and code wise, shaping meego to the future. on code level we don't fork, but 2.0 comes with no obligation for backwards compat | 14:35 |
| lardman | sivang: you just joined according to my client | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | so we start with a meego core | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | and slim it | 14:35 |
| lcuk | the problem still comes that end users expect normality | 14:36 |
| Jaffa | Aren't many end-users | 14:36 |
| lcuk | and compatability with media etc | 14:36 |
| lcuk | stuff like skype | 14:36 |
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| lcuk | meego itself is right to provide those corp apps, if we just remake mer | 14:37 |
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| lcuk | we end up still missing the common things expected | 14:37 |
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| timoph | lcuk: that's where the community extras/surrounds/whatever steps in | 14:39 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Code submission processes are MeeGo "upstream" not 2.0 | 14:39 |
| lcuk | yes timoph and that ontop of a senbile vendor setup would do that | 14:40 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: right | 14:40 |
| lcuk | s/senbile/sensible/ | 14:40 |
| infobot | lcuk meant: yes timoph and that ontop of a sensible vendor setup would do that | 14:40 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Perhaps it'snotpossible to fix without eother a wholesale fork, abandonning compatibility, only doing minor patches or fixing "upstream" | 14:40 |
| X-Fade | I'd rather see a restructure than a fork. | 14:41 |
| timoph | Jaffa: typing on a n950? :p | 14:41 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, ++ | 14:41 |
| X-Fade | But yeah, things like not having an active TSG, invisible working groups etc, doesn't give a good impression atm. | 14:42 |
| lcuk | now for a long while lbt has been discussing the reference vendor | 14:42 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: WG's aren't invisible actually, at least IVI and TV | 14:42 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: There are more :) | 14:42 |
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| X-Fade | And architect decisions aren't exactly discussed in public either? | 14:43 |
| slaine | IT seems like the meego core stuff is still very much handled behind closed doors | 14:43 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, like the irc stats we see, based on discussions in this channel only | 14:43 |
| Jaffa | timoph: iPad ;-) | 14:43 |
| timoph | :D | 14:43 |
| lcuk | when we know that around the meegosphere many people are advancing and discussing things | 14:43 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, meego run on it yet? | 14:43 |
| * Jaffa thinks the "a project based on MeeGo Core" idea has legs | 14:44 | |
| timoph | yep | 14:44 |
| Jaffa | Has to eat lunch first | 14:44 |
| timoph | take the core and build a communnity distro on top of that | 14:45 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: No, but it's nicely jailbroken now | 14:45 |
| Jaffa | distro*s* | 14:45 |
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| sivang | lcuk: I am about to create a QDeclartiveView app that will drink its qml off a web service, but wanted to intsall skype | 14:45 |
| timoph | true | 14:45 |
| sivang | lcuk: or a youtube app if that alread exists. | 14:45 |
| lcuk | timoph, n9x0-ce | 14:45 |
| sivang | timoph: you mean provide more than reference UX ontop of the meego compliant core? | 14:45 |
| lcuk | already exists | 14:45 |
| lcuk | and is the sort of model required? | 14:46 |
| timoph | lcuk: exactly but with a wider scope | 14:46 |
| lcuk | indeed - the meego-ce or formeego-ce | 14:46 |
| sivang | so ce is the UX on top of the DE? | 14:46 |
| * sivang been away for a bit. | 14:46 | |
| lcuk | sivang, Developer Edition transmogrified into Community-Edition | 14:46 |
| lcuk | and with the N950 coming out, its scope slightly wdened to put effort to N9x0-ce | 14:47 |
| Jaffa | Cordia too | 14:47 |
| lcuk | but I see no reason why MeeGo-CE shouldn't come from it | 14:47 |
| Jaffa | Multiple UXes around an open project with third party apps which is MeeGo Compliant and open processes | 14:47 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Exactly. | 14:48 |
| * timoph nods | 14:48 | |
| lcuk | 3rd party apps, we also need first party apps | 14:48 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: But it treats the Handset UX as separate upstreams | 14:48 |
| lbt | :) | 14:49 |
| Jaffa | s/it treats/it would treat/ | 14:49 |
| infobot | Jaffa meant: lcuk: But it would treat the Handset UX as separate upstreams | 14:49 |
| sivang | lcuk: what's not enough in DE? | 14:49 |
| lcuk | as an example, how would formeego handle skype? | 14:49 |
| slaine | Aren't you describing what we have already with the CE work ? | 14:49 |
| lcuk | yes | 14:49 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: How is meego.com handling Skype? | 14:49 |
| lbt | lcuk: don't go there.... same way as it handles MS Word.... | 14:49 |
| slaine | I'm failing to see any difference. | 14:50 |
| * sivang wants to read about DE vs. CE | 14:50 | |
| lcuk | it is a question we would need | 14:50 |
| lbt | libreoffice/XMPP | 14:50 |
| Jaffa | slaine: Sort of, yes. Using that as a model to the next logical step | 14:50 |
| lcuk | else how would the technical group handle video conferencing? | 14:50 |
| lcuk | *grin* | 14:50 |
| X-Fade | Don't forget the problem we have is even about 'free' software. | 14:50 |
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| X-Fade | The non-free software part is a whole different thing. | 14:50 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, the problem may be open software | 14:50 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: ForMeeGo is successful when a MeeGo device, with its vendor-specific UI, is built on ForMeeGo | 14:51 |
| lcuk | but we must consider closed software too | 14:51 |
| slaine | The problem is as it's always been, community repos | 14:51 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: I was not considering that at all for meego. | 14:51 |
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| lcuk | ok | 14:51 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: You should. | 14:51 |
| lcuk | RST38h, \o | 14:51 |
| X-Fade | just OSI licensed software was scary enough. | 14:51 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Or I will have to bring up my own repo =) | 14:52 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: ForMeeGo would provide the open base and drop-in ecosystem for vendors | 14:52 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Go ahead. | 14:52 |
| slaine | I fail to see why it needs to be a fork/rebase | 14:52 |
| Jaffa | slaine: It's not. | 14:52 |
| X-Fade | A restructure only works if the people involved want it. | 14:52 |
| slaine | surely it should be a supplemental layer that a user can add to their device, if the vendor allows adding 3rd party repos | 14:52 |
| lcuk | aren't we around meego to try and work together | 14:53 |
| X-Fade | So far this has been a very quiet subject. | 14:53 |
| lcuk | slaine, that sounds reasonable | 14:53 |
| Jaffa | slaine: It takes MeeGo Core as an upstream and provides the openness and ecosystemm that MeeGo is currently lacking and has no desire to (seemingly) have | 14:53 |
| slaine | Jaffa, yeah, I get that. But how is that different to the n9x0-ce ? And nobody considers that a fork/rebase | 14:54 |
| Jaffa | slaine: As mentioned, a restructure/fix of The MeeGo Project requires the participation of those leading the project. | 14:54 |
| Jaffa | slaine: It's exactly similar to N9x0-CE, but wider in scope. | 14:55 |
| Jaffa | slaine: It's a fork of all the layers of the MeeGo *Project* above Core. Not a fork of Core code | 14:55 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, you call it a fork | 14:56 |
| Jaffa | (IMHO) | 14:56 |
| lcuk | it was described as a reference vendor | 14:56 |
| slaine | Well, from where I'm standing, MeeGo Core is the only remaining "closed" element of The MeeGo Project, not the IVI, TV, Handset/N9x0 layers. So basing a ForMeeGo project off that is already going down the same roads | 14:56 |
| lcuk | since that is what needs reproducing for every vertical | 14:56 |
| Jaffa | slaine: Fair point | 14:56 |
| slaine | And by closed, I mean there's no transparency to architecturall decisions. | 14:57 |
| Stskeeps | slaine: i wouldn't mind a Core WG tbh.. | 14:57 |
| slaine | We're told via the meego-dev mailing list that things are happening, but never get to see the discussions behind it. | 14:57 |
| Jaffa | slaine: OK, so fixing that requires the restructuring/fixing of the existing Project | 14:58 |
| slaine | so again, I'm failing to see how a ForMeeGo release, based on MeeGo Core, would be anything more than another UX project layer like what we already have and are encouraged to do. | 14:58 |
| slaine | (slow typing, sorry) | 14:58 |
| lbt | what packages should come out of core then? | 14:58 |
| Jaffa | Something being attempted, but when the project owners don't come fwd to kick off the apps.meego.com discussions, that seems unlikel | 14:59 |
| dm8tbr | As the person that was pushing the forMeeGo subject and owns the domain I'd like to add that I see the community as an symbiotic part together with the 'business thing' that is the MeeGo Project they should form the larger thing that is the real MeeGo that lives and evolves | 14:59 |
| Jaffa | slaine: Agreed. But layers *below* Core seem open | 14:59 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: everything up to what delivers meego api | 14:59 |
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| Stskeeps | (a functional) | 14:59 |
| slaine | Jaffa, in principal, that's upstream for the projects, but I get your point | 15:00 |
| lbt | name 10 | 15:00 |
| lbt | emacs .... 9 to go | 15:00 |
| Jaffa | Qt | 15:00 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: qt and dependancy ggraph of that, systemd and uxlaunch :P | 15:00 |
| lbt | nah | 15:00 |
| lbt | Qt not in core? | 15:00 |
| lbt | uxlaunch,... OK | 15:00 |
| Jaffa | Oh, was answering a different question ;-) | 15:00 |
| slaine | dm8tbr: that's basically where I was coming from with my "supplemental layer" bit above | 15:00 |
| Stskeeps | my list is meego core | 15:00 |
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| lbt | hehe | 15:01 |
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| lbt | I just need a small number of glaring extras | 15:01 |
| dm8tbr | slaine: just that this ain't a layer cake. For business success and devices, MeeGo needs the 'business thing' side of things. But for that to exist it MUST also have the community that works with it (cf. reference vendor, etc) | 15:01 |
| dm8tbr | it is more of a one begets the other circle | 15:02 |
| slaine | dm8tbr: yes, I was just about to comment on the dangers of layer cake | 15:02 |
| slaine | and breaking up the lower part of the stack, MeeGo Core, into sub-layers is going to lead to that too | 15:02 |
| slaine | imho, the Community as a Reference Vendor approach makes the most sense | 15:03 |
| vvaltone | Yes, quickly.. add as much GPLv3 as possible | 15:04 |
| slaine | to give it that broader scope over the n9x0-ce project that Jaffa was talking about | 15:04 |
| lcuk | slaine, ++ | 15:04 |
| lcuk | and what we had been heading towards anyway | 15:05 |
| dm8tbr | slaine: the CE shares aspects of the forMeeGo story and should be part of it IMHO | 15:05 |
| lcuk | the ce is gives the stage to allow formeego in light of yesterdays announcement | 15:05 |
| lcuk | what ^ | 15:05 |
| slaine | dm8tbr: I guess thats the point we're all agreeing on, the vector on how to achieve it is where we're getting muddled. | 15:06 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, to show the -ce or even formeego itself would work requires packaging for meego | 15:06 |
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| lcuk | and unlike recent very quick starting around harmattan | 15:07 |
| Jaffa | slaine: I suppose the advantage of treating Core as an upstream of ForMeeGo is that it acknowledges that it's a closed box and we can't do anything about it. That's why I suggest it's a project fork/reference vendor/ecosystem in a box. | 15:07 |
| lcuk | we need apps actually being made for meego | 15:07 |
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| lcuk | how much scope is there still to simply reference a maemo repository? | 15:08 |
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| lbt | http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/restructuring-meego-executive-summary.html | 15:08 |
| lbt | http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-core-focus.html | 15:08 |
| dm8tbr | it's really not that hard. it should draw a lot on the pictures of opensuse, fedora and the likes | 15:08 |
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| dm8tbr | besides, this, exactly, what lbt just said! | 15:09 |
| slaine | I think we're put in a logistical tight spot with the LF rejection of apps.meego.com rather than a philosophical one. We've all known that getting the extras/garage/surrounds issue resolved would be difficult, it's taken us a year and a half to get here. Having LF endorse it would have been a life saver, but we're now back to the mercy of strangers to get an infrastructure in place that can manage this service now. | 15:09 |
| * sivang a bit confused at the discussion not sure what's the midpoint. | 15:09 | |
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| lcuk | question: does the meego-ce currently have apps. beta repositories enabled? | 15:10 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: I doubt it as there's no way of getting apps into apps-testing or apps yet | 15:10 |
| lbt | http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-systems-and-processes.html | 15:10 |
| dm8tbr | slaine: AFAICT the infrastructure is on it's way and the LF actually will endores it, they just don't want the legal obligation of hosting the website | 15:10 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, so it is vapourware still | 15:11 |
| Jaffa | dm8tbr: Which, bluntly, doesn't make sense | 15:11 |
| lcuk | how about we get apps up and running | 15:11 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: I imagine a lot of it is paused until apps.meego.com/LF was resolved. Unfortunately, it wasn't | 15:11 |
| dm8tbr | Jaffa: it does, more than you think | 15:12 |
| lcuk | well a good start by app developers is actually going the extra bit and making their apps work on meego-ce | 15:12 |
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| sivang | anyone care to reference me to an ml thread about this? | 15:12 |
| dm8tbr | slaine: meego-community | 15:12 |
| slaine | ^sivang | 15:12 |
| lcuk | otherwise we are dicsussing a nothingness because there are no apps to infringe | 15:13 |
| lcuk | shadows | 15:13 |
| Jaffa | dm8tbr: Really? Having a third party website which links to repo.pub.meego.com (which is also HTTP accessible) which contains the scary source code & binaries provides sufficient legal indemnification? | 15:13 |
| slaine | lcuk: ok, my Broadcom driver rpm, probably a good example of something that LF would never allow to be hosted | 15:13 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: apps are already being built on COBS and put into repo.pub.meego.com, as you know | 15:14 |
| lbt | http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-lead-by-example.html | 15:14 |
| dm8tbr | Jaffa: that is the other elephant in the room, if you scream louder they will pull teh plug today | 15:14 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, I know | 15:14 |
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| Jaffa | dm8tbr: Right, which is why the argument doesn't make sense. So it's either the lawyers are talking without knowledge/filtering/correction, or it's political | 15:15 |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: meego.com linking to a app which contains problematic things already puts them at risk. | 15:15 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: And that is just a link on the website. | 15:16 |
| Jaffa | dm8tbr: So, as I said, the argument doesn't make sense. Understanding the position, what might happen next and what the Project leadership think about it cuts to the heart of the matter | 15:16 |
| javispedro | dispatch another iteration of an sbdmock based autobuilder and host it on maemo.org! | 15:16 |
| * javispedro hides | 15:16 | |
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| dm8tbr | Jaffa: it makes sense, the lawyer drafting this was not aware of COBS, else it would be offline by now. | 15:16 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: OBS works well (it seemes), the problem are the build agents and output. Who pays? Who manages? | 15:17 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: We're not that far off. | 15:17 |
| dm8tbr | Jaffa: I see it as highly likely that we will need to move COBS to forMeeGo at some point | 15:17 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Actually an OBS hosted there yeah. | 15:17 |
| X-Fade | I already ordered some servers for it, just in case. | 15:17 |
| Jaffa | dm8tbr: Right, which is where this starts getting expensive real-quick | 15:17 |
| dm8tbr | Jaffa: what X-Fade said | 15:18 |
| * lcuk wanders off to try and fix bug 20099 | 15:18 | |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20099 nor, High, ---, geoff, NEW, [CE] Calculator crashes after pressing any button and then "." . | 15:18 |
| lbt | http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-and-hacker-community.html | 15:18 |
| dm8tbr | oooh, that url looks promising | 15:18 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Being paid for, managed and owned by whom? | 15:18 |
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| timoph | lbt: you publish those faster that I can read them :) | 15:18 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Nokia is paying the bill for it now, to bootstrap it. | 15:18 |
| lbt | they've been weeks in the writing timoph | 15:19 |
| timoph | ah | 15:19 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: They feel that meego needs a community offering. | 15:19 |
| * dm8tbr encourages everyone here to read http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-and-hacker-community.html -- especially those that think that MeeGo should be completely community driven. | 15:19 | |
| javispedro | btw, what's on obs.maemo.org ? | 15:19 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Hoping that it enough to bootstrap and others will chip in later. | 15:19 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Right | 15:20 |
| lbt | http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-infrastructure.html | 15:20 |
| timoph | dm8tbr: imho it shouldn't be just community driven but it needs the community layer - the reference vendor / community edition story.. | 15:21 |
| dm8tbr | timoph: exactly | 15:21 |
| dm8tbr | timoph: just drop the layer bit | 15:21 |
| timoph | yep | 15:21 |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: dm8tbr and I have already setup dns for formeego.com/.org so we can point to whatever we need. | 15:22 |
| Jaffa | dm8tbr: Who's said "community-driven"? AFAICT, the talk has been about openness, predictability and increasing attractivness to vendors by providing an ecosystem-in-a-box they can differentiate with their own UX | 15:22 |
| dm8tbr | Jaffa: it may not have been explicitly stated, but I have been sensing the misunderstanding that lbt addresses in that posting many times. | 15:24 |
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| slaine | lbt: just finished reading those, +1 for everything. I've the same opinions | 15:26 |
| dm8tbr | open ended devices like N900, N9(50) or the various Archos generations are really just the side-show, the playground for us the community. This is very important, but not for Vendors. Vendors can benefit though by e.g. recruiting out of the community or drawing on the open source projects in the community. | 15:27 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: hope you'll send urls fo those to meego-dev@ | 15:27 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: yeah .. it's about time ... | 15:27 |
| timoph | lbt: s/DE/CE/ :) | 15:27 |
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| lbt | timoph: shit... did I correct it the wrong way :) | 15:28 |
| * Stskeeps heads out to his accountant | 15:28 | |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I wanted to wait for apps to settle down ... silly | 15:28 |
| lbt | shoulda posted-early, posted often : | 15:28 |
| lbt | :) | 15:28 |
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| SpeedEvil | dm8tbr: To a degree. | 15:32 |
| SpeedEvil | dm8tbr: There are plenty of phones with crappy clone OSs coming out of china. | 15:32 |
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| SpeedEvil | Hardware is improving fast enough that it's not going to be that long until CE/DE are a sane alternative to rolling your own crappy OS | 15:33 |
| dm8tbr | SpeedEvil: yes, but devices do not necessarily need to be 'hackable'. that is a misconception. It is great if they are and I encourage people to vote with their wallet for those | 15:33 |
| SpeedEvil | Indeed. | 15:33 |
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| lbt | final one ... for now http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-restructured.html | 15:34 |
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| dm8tbr | :) | 15:34 |
| dm8tbr | lbt: thanks for putting so much time and effort into this | 15:35 |
| lbt | well, as I mention ... I had help from community reviewers :) | 15:35 |
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| dm8tbr | notwithstanding, thanks | 15:36 |
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| berndhs | morning | 15:53 |
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| CosmoHill | afternoon | 15:54 |
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| slaine | afternoon CosmoHill | 15:56 |
| CosmoHill | .o/ | 15:56 |
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| * CosmoHill goes out to make himself dapper | 16:05 | |
| CosmoHill | (I've not worn smart trousers or shirts since highschool) | 16:05 |
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| berndhs | CosmoHill: don't make a habit out of it now, you have a reputation to uphold | 16:08 |
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| lcuk | berndhs, he might look good dressing in a habit | 16:12 |
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| berndhs | perhaps, but then they might brand him as a religious extremist | 16:14 |
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| lcuk | sigh | 16:18 |
| slaine | In Qt Creator, can I break out the Help window to a separate window ? | 16:18 |
| * slaine is new to Qt | 16:18 | |
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| lcuk | the OBS builder is quite adept | 16:39 |
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| lcuk | but does t trigger rebuilds after every single file uploaded? | 16:40 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: After every 'package' revision. | 16:40 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: When using web client, each upload is a revision. | 16:40 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, so whenusing the webservice to upload a single file | 16:40 |
| lcuk | it becomes a revision | 16:40 |
| lcuk | roger | 16:40 |
| X-Fade | Using the osc tool is better :) | 16:41 |
| lcuk | indeed it is | 16:41 |
| lcuk | but learning to walk first | 16:41 |
| lcuk | :) | 16:41 |
| X-Fade | hehe | 16:41 |
| berndhs | the webclient is cool even if you use the cli tool, lets you watch what it's doing | 16:42 |
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| lcuk | X-Fade, the webclient logic is similar to normal maemo autobuilder | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Yes and no :) | 16:43 |
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| lcuk | X-Fade, do we know how many pure native qt apps exist on maemo? as in ones without explicit maemoisms | 16:56 |
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| pavi | guys tried out Meego CE on N900 , quite nice UI but the touch response is slow ,what might be the reason ? | 17:07 |
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| Stskeeps | give it a bit to rest, first boot is always slow due to media indexing | 17:09 |
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| rafael2k | hi people, | 17:18 |
| rafael2k | can anyone tell me if the N950 has a FM receiver? | 17:18 |
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| slaine | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/N9DevelopmentTipsAndTricks#Accessing_HW | 17:20 |
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| lcuk | lol arfoll vgrade | 17:26 |
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| rafael2k | is it true that n950 has a fm transmitter but it does not come with a transmitt antenna? | 17:27 |
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| dm8tbr | rafael2k: the wifi chip has that functionality in theory. | 17:28 |
| rafael2k | lets see if nokia deliver my N950 soon in order to put my hands on this | 17:29 |
| dm8tbr | rafael2k: unless i2s and antenna is wired to it, it will just not work. | 17:29 |
| rafael2k | dm8tbr: :/ | 17:29 |
| dm8tbr | FM is so 80s | 17:29 |
| rafael2k | it could be a good hw mod to enable the fm tx | 17:29 |
| dm8tbr | sure if you are into BGA reballing | 17:30 |
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| rafael2k | it's the chip pin available for soldering? | 17:30 |
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| timoph | dm8tbr: http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2011-08-03/ | 17:31 |
| dm8tbr | rafael2k: all the major ICs are BGA on nowadays devices, no, chance, in, hell. | 17:31 |
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| dm8tbr | timoph: yes, take a guess why I said that :D | 17:32 |
| timoph | :D | 17:32 |
| rafael2k | dm8tbr: ok. is this information about the fm tx confirmed? | 17:34 |
| dm8tbr | rafael2k: what do you mean by 'this'? | 17:34 |
| rafael2k | dm8tbr: the unconnected fm tx issue | 17:34 |
| dm8tbr | rafael2k: no, ask nokia for a schematic. | 17:35 |
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| rafael2k | thanks | 17:35 |
| rafael2k | hopefully someone will disassembly a N950 for us | 17:36 |
| rafael2k | and with regards to the fm rx, it it working as expected? | 17:37 |
| timoph | http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=23759&postcount=2 | 17:37 |
| timoph | it is ^ | 17:37 |
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| rafael2k | Great. My project is related to FM/RDS. | 17:38 |
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| javispedro | rafael2k: rds does work: http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=26750&postcount=5 | 17:47 |
| javispedro | audio, on the other side... | 17:48 |
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| rafael2k | javispedro: this is good news | 17:58 |
| rafael2k | javispedro: I hope audio works also... | 17:58 |
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| rafael2k | javispedro: do you think the fm audio issue can be solved or the issue seems a hw problem? | 18:00 |
| javispedro | no idea until I have schematic | 18:00 |
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| javispedro | some nokian said fmrx should work, so I'd bet it's sw. | 18:01 |
| rafael2k | good | 18:02 |
| rafael2k | how about USB hostmode, any idea? I really like this functionality in my N900 | 18:02 |
| lcuk | if I wanted to try and use the meego-app-calculator on harmattan | 18:03 |
| lcuk | do I jnust need to add a .dsc file? | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | -app is more difficult, it uses meego-ux-components | 18:03 |
| lcuk | or does it need a whole debian subfolder/tar.gz | 18:03 |
| lcuk | well that is a technical issue only really? | 18:04 |
| lcuk | since harmattan is meego 1.2 | 18:04 |
| lcuk | and these components are in meego 1.2 | 18:04 |
| lcuk | :P | 18:04 |
| javispedro | rafael2k: you should ask this stuff on #harmattan | 18:04 |
| vgrade_ | lcuk, ? | 18:04 |
| lcuk | vgrade_, I was giggling at what you retweeted | 18:04 |
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| rafael2k | javispedro: ok | 18:04 |
| vgrade_ | ah, yes, very funny OBS joke | 18:05 |
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| * lcuk moves onto another bug | 19:36 | |
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| CosmoHill | It's 29.7C in my bedroom | 19:38 |
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| lcuk | crikey CosmoHill | 19:41 |
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| auke | CosmoHill: not cool | 19:46 |
| Stskeeps | morn auke | 19:47 |
| auke | hey | 19:47 |
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| lcuk | so I am sat here with 3 devices with meego instances on them | 20:01 |
| lcuk | how do they work together? | 20:01 |
| lcuk | if I am reading a book on one | 20:01 |
| lcuk | can it be continued on another? | 20:01 |
| lcuk | when I make notes on the laptop, can they be available on the others? | 20:01 |
| lcuk | w00t_, this is the sort of problem you have tinkered with I believe | 20:02 |
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| lcuk | i ask because I am wanting to read a book and have same document on all machines | 20:06 |
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| lcuk | awesome, 50 new n950 devices from Nokia | 20:12 |
| lcuk | DDP moreso | 20:12 |
| * lcuk stops talking to himself | 20:12 | |
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| Stskeeps | 50 new devices? | 20:13 |
| maligor | probably found in some developers closet | 20:13 |
| maligor | while excavating after the battle of elop | 20:14 |
| maligor | or atleast I assumed they weren't manufacturing them?-) | 20:14 |
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| * CosmoHill cackles cos the number of minutes he has has just doubled | 20:23 | |
| CosmoHill | now if only I had someone to phone :( | 20:23 |
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| lcuk | berndhs, too complex for muggles | 20:47 |
| lcuk | good idea though (ssh-fs) | 20:47 |
| berndhs | better solution than NFS for small networks | 20:47 |
| berndhs | and its in the meego repos | 20:48 |
| lcuk | berndhs, installation is one thing | 20:48 |
| lcuk | ensuring that real people can configure it is another | 20:48 |
| berndhs | rc.local :) | 20:49 |
| berndhs | even systemd supports rc.local, I think | 20:49 |
| RST38h | https://picasaweb.google.com/luarvique/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKaR39fjs8PNgAE#5636687252037733650 | 20:49 |
| lcuk | berndhs, i don't even know what rc.local is | 20:49 |
| berndhs | it is the tail end of the boot sequence, you can put your own scripts there | 20:50 |
| lcuk | berndhs, could your parents? | 20:50 |
| berndhs | well, not any more, they finished booting anything soem years ago | 20:50 |
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| lcuk | berndhs, :( but you understand the intent | 20:51 |
| berndhs | but you could configure it for the non-technical people in the family, they won't even know its there | 20:51 |
| berndhs | their devices just see soem shared directories | 20:51 |
| lcuk | directories? I see sketches and books :P | 20:52 |
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| berndhs | thsoe are stored in directories | 20:52 |
| berndhs | whether the users know it or not | 20:52 |
| berndhs | the devices sees that its shared, the user doesn't | 20:53 |
| timoph | yay! http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=28124&postcount=27 | 20:54 |
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| berndhs | there shouldn't be a central app store for all of meego, there should be a whole pile of them | 20:56 |
| berndhs | competition is healthy | 20:56 |
| timoph | who said that there's going to be a central repo for all of meego? | 20:57 |
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| berndhs | the complaint is that there isn't | 20:58 |
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| berndhs | because LF won't do it | 20:58 |
| timoph | it's not just about repos | 20:58 |
| berndhs | so best thing is to make independent ones | 20:58 |
| wmarone | how about instead of all this "formeego" stuff, why not just create an actual "compliant" derivative of MeeGo with standard repositories and a "store" of sorts? | 20:58 |
| timoph | besides I really don't want to see the mess maemo had with repositories before n900 | 20:58 |
| wmarone | something with its own name | 20:58 |
| berndhs | right its not just about repos, that's why I said "app store" | 20:58 |
| berndhs | there should be more than one oil company, more than one refrigerator company, more than one app store | 20:59 |
| timoph | well. not a store. It also host community made meego builds for different devices that the official builds don't support etc | 21:00 |
| berndhs | yes | 21:00 |
| timoph | but as I see it formeego isn't stopping anyone from setting up their own stuff | 21:00 |
| berndhs | indeed, if someone wants to, nobody can stop them | 21:01 |
| timoph | yep | 21:01 |
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| w00t_ | lcuk: do you know what a document oriented store/database is? | 21:10 |
| Robot101 | its a paradigm | 21:13 |
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| w00t_ | (drink? :P) | 21:14 |
| CosmoHill | (Cidre?) | 21:14 |
| lcuk | w00t_, informal database | 21:15 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: right, pretty much | 21:16 |
| * lcuk had experience with basics of them | 21:16 | |
| w00t_ | lcuk: what i've done is to tack some metadata on top of that and write something which is capable of using that to send changes around different devices using link-local discovery | 21:16 |
| lcuk | w00t_, link local is only one part of it | 21:17 |
| lcuk | after (for instance, using real uses case) tracy sets off for morrisons | 21:17 |
| lcuk | and she forgot something on the shopping list | 21:17 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: yes, I do plan to add other distribution methods over time, they're just not a priority for now | 21:17 |
| w00t_ | so that's still very technically possible | 21:17 |
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| lcuk | so a lan cloud database | 21:18 |
| w00t_ | yup | 21:18 |
| lcuk | does each client have to always retain entire copy | 21:18 |
| lcuk | or does the syncing attempt to pull everything together? | 21:18 |
| w00t_ | it acts as a mesh, so you can have two completely different devices merge together | 21:19 |
| ali1234 | "document oriented database" is a completely meaningless set of buzzwords which was invented to promote couchdb | 21:19 |
| lcuk | w00t_, consider a group of sketches | 21:19 |
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| lcuk | or contacts | 21:19 |
| lcuk | but contacts are less issue because you generally do not create new ones every few minutes | 21:19 |
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| w00t_ | mhmm | 21:20 |
| lcuk | w00t_, 3 machines, machine1..2..3 etc | 21:20 |
| ali1234 | couchdb is exactly like every other database ever made, except instead of using SQL, you query it using a json api over http | 21:20 |
| lcuk | each might have a set of sketches growing constantly | 21:20 |
| lcuk | ali1234, NoQL also | 21:21 |
| lcuk | w00t_, knowing which set of devices have the data on is a tough problem to overcome | 21:21 |
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| w00t_ | lcuk: ah, i get what you're meaning, but no, they'd each have copies of them | 21:22 |
| lcuk | when you do load banacing clusters online, generally you still need one index node | 21:22 |
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| ali1234 | you're right, it is tough. which is why couchdb doesn't attempt to solve it at all | 21:22 |
| ali1234 | instead, you're expected to sync the entire database file yourself | 21:22 |
| lcuk | ali1234, couchdb is one example, just talking problem through | 21:22 |
| ali1234 | which would work exactly as well using sqlite, or mysql | 21:22 |
| w00t_ | I didn't want to do that sort of thing at all because these are still very much about wandering off solo/mobile, disconnected from the rest of the devices, and then wander back and say hello to them | 21:22 |
| ali1234 | which is why everyone is now dropping couchdb for sqlite | 21:22 |
| ali1234 | ...because sqlite actually works, and isn't just a bunch of buzzwords | 21:23 |
| ali1234 | couchdb and the whole "nosql" movement in general is a great example of being different purely for the sake of it | 21:24 |
| lcuk | w00t_, i think a pseudo domain controller machine on the lan would be practical way to solve it | 21:24 |
| ali1234 | the developers decided they don't like SQL, and therefore decided that *anything* must be better | 21:24 |
| lcuk | each device as in your contacts example syncs to that one | 21:24 |
| lcuk | even if the data comes from some other machine | 21:24 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: it doesn't need one | 21:24 |
| w00t_ | any device can connect to any other device and happily catch up | 21:25 |
| lcuk | w00t_, indeed a binary pair works, but when it expands to 3..n devices it becomes a problem to know where update means | 21:28 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: it handles that | 21:29 |
| lcuk | does the client share key field details of everybody it knows? | 21:29 |
| lcuk | or how does it know what data to download? | 21:29 |
| * lcuk once did data sync between whole store group computers and head offices | 21:30 | |
| w00t_ | well, there's two different mechanisms, document store (which we've talked about so far), and directory tree synchronisation, which is much more WIP | 21:30 |
| w00t_ | document store keeps a set of metadata per-object (and in the future, per-field) like last modified timestamp and hash, and does magic to know what has changed between devices, and resolve collisions by using the most up to date copy | 21:31 |
| lcuk | w00t_, that is entirely the issue, "most upto date might have to be recalculated over practically the entire dataset | 21:32 |
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| lcuk | without some machine knowing the leading edge | 21:32 |
| w00t_ | no, as it only exchanges metadata | 21:32 |
| lcuk | it becomes like a git problem | 21:32 |
| w00t_ | I don't think I understand your concern, perhaps I'm not being overly clear too, but a lot of this only exists in my head or in a very messy scratchpad, I've not often tried to explain it | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | while you try to figure out the "best" way to solve this problem using buzzwords, normal people are just putting the sqlite.db into their dropbox and finding it works just fine | 21:34 |
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| lcuk | w00t_, http://liqbase.net/20110610_002.jpg | 21:35 |
| lcuk | the computers there are on the same lan | 21:35 |
| lcuk | i draw a new sketch on today | 21:35 |
| lcuk | i think I need a central server to sync the new sketch to all of them | 21:35 |
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| w00t_ | how many sketches do you have, total? | 21:35 |
| lcuk | right now, 9000ish | 21:36 |
| * w00t_ calculates | 21:36 | |
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| w00t_ | I imagine these are stored as individual files | 21:36 |
| lcuk | but that obviously does not include the other things tags photos bookpositions notes etc | 21:36 |
| lcuk | yeah | 21:36 |
| w00t_ | all in one directory, or (preferred) multiple trees? i.e. 2011/07/3/<something>.sketch | 21:37 |
| lcuk | i have /cal /sketches /tags /photos etc | 21:37 |
| lcuk | each file is datestamped | 21:38 |
| lcuk | it would be trivial to use folder structure as you state though | 21:38 |
| lcuk | though would slow down startup time ;) | 21:38 |
| lcuk | w00t_, the problem scope is simple with a few files, just tar.gz the folder tree and mirror contents, but at some point the amount of meta data being sent becomes non trivial | 21:39 |
| w00t_ | ok, fine. the way directory sync will work is that metadata will be stored at the directory level (i.e. a hash), when devices first meet up, they'll say "hey, /sketches has a hash of <foo>, how's yours?", if they match, nothing happens, so you've only had a ~20 byte transfer.. if they don't match, each side will exchange metadata on each file, and handle healing any differences (via simple differencing too, so if you have a large file you append | 21:39 |
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| lcuk | sounds reasonable indeed | 21:40 |
| w00t_ | the metadata for each file is.. um. filename (say, 12 bytes), plus 8 byte filesize, plus a sha-1 hash | 21:40 |
| lcuk | would that work in an even more general sense for entire user profile sync? | 21:40 |
| w00t_ | 'user profile' like settings, data, etc? | 21:41 |
| w00t_ | yes | 21:41 |
| w00t_ | that's why i originally started to write it | 21:41 |
| lcuk | harmattan natively (and in hardware) stores sha1 hashes does it not? | 21:41 |
| lcuk | ie can we get that part "for free" from the os? | 21:41 |
| w00t_ | the directory tree part comes in because I want to sync photos between my mobile and laptop (say) | 21:41 |
| w00t_ | maybe | 21:42 |
| w00t_ | I haven't looked at putting it on harmattan much - yet | 21:42 |
| w00t_ | I want to get directory trees finished first | 21:42 |
| w00t_ | as in, written and working :) | 21:42 |
| lcuk | of course | 21:42 |
| w00t_ | I have the theory behind it | 21:42 |
| w00t_ | I just need to make it work | 21:42 |
| * lcuk nods | 21:42 | |
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| lcuk | w00t_, I was tinkering with php server and made the push part of calendar sync work | 21:43 |
| lcuk | i even made the server return sketches as .png files for building my diary/blog page | 21:44 |
| w00t_ | :) | 21:44 |
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| lcuk | i keep trying to do it without needing the server | 21:44 |
| Stskeeps | why not just rsync | 21:44 |
| lcuk | there are so many places in the world without internet | 21:44 |
| ali1234 | why not just git? | 21:44 |
| w00t_ | Stskeeps: directed at me? | 21:45 |
| lcuk | configurability | 21:45 |
| w00t_ | Stskeeps: rsync can't handle deletes properly | 21:45 |
| w00t_ | you either know which direction you have to sync in (and lose changes on one side) or you ignore that and get stuff you deleted come back, etc | 21:45 |
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| lcuk | w00t_, where are you doing the sync stuff, I am sure some folks might want to follow its progress and may have more ideas | 21:49 |
| w00t_ | https://github.com/saesu/ | 21:50 |
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| pavi | zypper update on meego CE for N900 gave me error building cache | 21:54 |
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| pavi | warning : disabling repo oss 1.2 daily because repo type cant be determined | 21:56 |
| pavi | I did a zypper clean and zypper update , no use | 21:56 |
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| * CosmoHill puts on a shirt and tie after many years and several attempts | 23:50 | |
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| berndhs | the necktie - a symbolic noose ? | 23:52 |
| CosmoHill | I've not worn a shirt and tie since highschool in 2005 | 23:53 |
| berndhs | I haven't worn a necktie since before you were born probably | 23:53 |
| CosmoHill | maybe, UK highschool finishes at 16 | 23:54 |
| berndhs | actually wayyyy before you were born :) | 23:54 |
| CosmoHill | I could do with a wider neck shirt tbh, nothing relaxes your nerves in an interview like feeling like you can't breath properly | 23:58 |
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