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| lardman | oh crap, missed a pm from fiferboy, someone please apologise to him for me tomorrow if I'm not about to do so myself | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| lardman | so not having been around for a while (work is busy), how's the N900 port coming along, and any clues on the upcoming Nokia hw? | 00:11 |
| lcuk | lardman, n900-de is awesome | 00:11 |
| lardman | fully working? | 00:11 |
| lcuk | really neat looking | 00:11 |
| lcuk | not last couple of days | 00:11 |
| lcuk | but on the whole, yeah | 00:12 |
| lardman | cool, will have to give it a go | 00:12 |
| lcuk | :D | 00:12 |
| lcuk | there is even a camera app now | 00:12 |
| lcuk | that takes out of focus photos (which needs some tlc) | 00:12 |
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| lardman | hmm, I could even try to address some mBarcode bugs and port it across then...: | 00:13 |
| lardman | my feeling is still that everything is somewhat up in the air, I hope I am wrong with that | 00:13 |
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| lardman | though updating the website might help to allay fears | 00:13 |
| w00t___ | updating what website? | 00:17 |
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| lardman | meego.com | 00:17 |
| w00t_ | to say what? "we're really not dead"? :-) | 00:18 |
| w00t_ | I think continuing to produce code is a more effective way to do that | 00:18 |
| lardman | perhaps, though that's quite hard to see from the outside tbh | 00:19 |
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| w00t_ | outside of release times (of which there is one coming up), it may be a little bit, yes | 00:19 |
| lardman | well perhaps is the wrong word, yes code is good, but it would be nice to see some sort of community stuff on the main page rather than static content | 00:19 |
| * w00t_ is confused | 00:20 | |
| w00t_ | virtually none of meego.com's front page is static, and it's full of community stuff (blogposts) | 00:20 |
| w00t_ | are we looking at the same thing? | 00:20 |
| lardman | hmm, I must have missed that and only see the 1 month old+ news items | 00:20 |
| w00t_ | where are you looking? | 00:21 |
| lardman | https://meego.com/ | 00:21 |
| lardman | MeeGo blog | 00:21 |
| lardman | Latest news from the team | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | http://w00t.dereferenced.net/p/i/imgbin20110428-6796-183lmy6-0.jpg | 00:21 |
| lardman | 14 February, 2011 - 21:21 | 00:21 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: top news item on front page is the 2/15 damage control | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | read the items under the first one | 00:21 |
| gabrbedd | ...or 2/14. | 00:21 |
| w00t_ | the first one is the most important one, but not necessarily the newest one | 00:21 |
| lardman | ah my mistake then, I simply looked at the date and presumed that was it | 00:22 |
| gabrbedd | w00t_: Ok. But I never bother to scroll down since the first one /should/ be the most recent. :-) | 00:22 |
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| * w00t_ tends to just not read meego.com | 00:23 | |
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| w00t_ | I get all the news elsewhere anyway :-P | 00:23 |
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| lardman | sure, I was just commenting on the meego.com main page | 00:23 |
| gabrbedd | "#meego -- where more aMeeGos get their news than any place else" | 00:24 |
| lardman | unfortunately I have to work these days without leaving an eye looking at irc ;) | 00:25 |
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| gabrbedd | lardman: It's just a joke... kind of a spoof on an ABC News (TV) slogan that they used to use in the US. | 00:26 |
| lardman | I'd really be happy to know only two things - whether we are going to get an extras style repo for community code, and what's going on with the ui | 00:26 |
| lardman | gabrbedd: ah ok, wrong country then :) | 00:26 |
| gabrbedd | where's berndhs where you need him? | 00:26 |
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| gabrbedd | :-p | 00:26 |
| gabrbedd | oh, wait... I think he's in canda. | 00:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t_: what horrific font rendering. | 00:27 |
| w00t_ | GeneralAntilles: I think it may be the jpg artifacts you're seeing | 00:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t_: nope, pretty sure it's the heavy font hinting. :P | 00:28 |
| * w00t_ is fine with it | 00:28 | |
| lardman | in irc or elsewhere? Perhaps my client is protecting me? | 00:29 |
| gabrbedd | lardman: extras-style repo -- AFAIK it's in the works with a lower priority. lbt is either heading it or IN THE THICK OF IT. | 00:30 |
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| * gabrbedd didn't mean to do ALL CAPS THERE, SORRY | 00:30 | |
| Jaffa | gabrbedd: Appropriate. | 00:30 |
| gabrbedd | lardman: As for UI... which UX in particular? | 00:30 |
| Jaffa | But there's only one now! | 00:30 |
| lardman | gabrbedd: cool, well I'm glad to hear someone is on the job of extras, and lbt will get it sorted I'm sure | 00:30 |
| lardman | gabrbedd: that's the question of course.... | 00:31 |
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| gabrbedd | Jaffa: only one... what? | 00:31 |
| Jaffa | Except, unless you read meego.com, where the fact that Netbook's adbandonned and Handset's not long for this world, and Tablet doesn't even exist (even if it was a Big Reveal by Intel, who said we were open?) | 00:31 |
| Jaffa | gabrbedd: Only one UX | 00:31 |
| Jaffa | No official announcement, just a continual drip of hint, question and suggestion. | 00:31 |
| lardman | So I'm sat thinking about running Ubuntu or Meego on my Galaxy Tab, and I look at the Ubuntu repos and think great, nothing on the Meego side, then I look at the potentil of Meego's finger friendliness and I wonder what the actual UI is these days | 00:32 |
| gabrbedd | Jaffa: yeah, it's kind of heading that way. IVI seems to be a holdout, though. | 00:32 |
| lardman | excuse my i for an a | 00:32 |
| Jaffa | lardman: http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/439238:hands-on-with-meegos-tablet-ux | 00:34 |
| gabrbedd | lardman: Things are headed toward the "MeeGo UX" (a.k.a. Tablet UX) | 00:34 |
| Jaffa | The trouble with IVI is that there MeeGo is a platform for hardware manufacturers, it's not of any real benefit to me as a car owner | 00:34 |
| Jaffa | a la http://lwn.net/Articles/439337/ | 00:34 |
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| gabrbedd | lardman: But as Jaffa said, there's no official announcements or commitments. That's just where all the action seems to be and the Handset UX is being kind of... shunned by some of the core devs | 00:35 |
| Jaffa | And MeeGo being an OEM OS is fine and dandy, but that's LiMo all over again; and Android's got the better start and mindshare (and, as I said, why do I really care if the headunit in my car runs a custom MeeGo build?) | 00:35 |
| lardman | thanks guys - I know this is what's happening because I've been paying at least some attention to the mls, but should this not be on the front page? | 00:35 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Just a couple of hours ago I was bemoaning the fact that there hadn't been an official post to meego-dev or -community about the fact that the 1.2 release has been delayed. | 00:36 |
| lardman | Jaffa: quite, I don't see any way to use it, even if it did run perfectly on whatever device | 00:36 |
| Jaffa | Which is a pretty big thing when you're doing time based releases. | 00:36 |
| gabrbedd | lardman: IMHO, yes... but I think there's a little bit of a hedge because the Tablet UX came out so close to the 1.2 release. | 00:36 |
| lardman | gabrbedd: more info is better than none imo | 00:37 |
| Jaffa | lardman: +1 | 00:37 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Anyway, I'm hoping that a big consumer electronics vendor gets on board and starts producing mainstream devices sooner rather than later. | 00:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Seems less and less likely. | 00:38 |
| gabrbedd | lardman: I'm on the outside with everyone else... so... yeah. | 00:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unless you're living in China. | 00:38 |
| lardman | and I guess everyone from the commercial interests is quite busy, but for those of us (not overly important) hobbyists, wondering whether bothering to port to the current Meego kernel is worthwhile, it is somewhat important to know that this project is still going | 00:38 |
| Jaffa | Another round of "look, our prototype hardware can run lots of OSes; does some OEM now want to develop and ship 'em" will be the deathknell for MeeGo as a hobbyist/community/open source project | 00:38 |
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| lbt | lardman: gabrbedd: actually X-Fade and Ferenc are doing a lot of the work there | 00:39 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Except the project isn't clear if it wants to be LiMo providing a stack for OEMs (in which case hobbyists aren't important and it's just a trade body) or whether it's taking on Android as the "next big thing" in mobile OSes | 00:39 |
| lardman | lbt: I stand corrected, but thanks too | 00:39 |
| lbt | just spreading the blame :) | 00:40 |
| lardman | Jaffa: yeah I see that, and twiddle my thumbs waiting for something to happen to push it one way or the other | 00:40 |
| lardman | lbt: :) | 00:40 |
| lbt | we're actually looking for apps to go into Apps right now | 00:40 |
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| lbt | if anyone has an | 00:40 |
| lbt | y | 00:40 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Nokia would've been pushing the latter as, at some point, there'd be a MeeGo(-compatible) device in shops | 00:40 |
| thiago_home | s/'d/'ll/ | 00:41 |
| lbt | actually, Jaffa, that'd be a useful "call to help" .... we need apps | 00:41 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: True | 00:41 |
| lardman | lbt: once I have something to run them on I'd be interested as long as there's a nice tutorial to move from sb to obs/whatever | 00:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt: apps for what, exactly? | 00:41 |
| lbt | GeneralAntilles: MeeGo | 00:41 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: I was kinda suggesting that if Nokia's board had invested in a slightly different strategy, we might've had them already | 00:41 |
| lardman | Jaffa: would've - past tense? | 00:41 |
| Jaffa | lbt: I think he means devices | 00:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: indeed. | 00:42 |
| lbt | ExoPC/Joggler/N900/Lenovo ... any of them is fine | 00:42 |
| * w00t_ wonders why he just got a bunch of items from meego weekly news in his meego rss feed all at once | 00:42 | |
| lbt | beagleboard/pandaboard, whatever | 00:42 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: no | 00:42 |
| lbt | nyah | 00:42 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I fixed the feed | 00:42 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: schedules haven't changed | 00:42 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: aha | 00:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: go back farther. | 00:42 |
| lardman | dev boards aren't very exciting or indeed useful unless you're a commercial dev or very interested in the platform | 00:42 |
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| thiago_home | schedules haven't changed due to the strategy change | 00:43 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: So Nokia's execution is really so shit that if the board had decided to invest *whatever* was required in MeeGo to make it a success, we *still* wouldn't have the device out yet? | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | correct | 00:43 |
| lardman | proper useful hw is the way forwards, and for that we have the N900, Tab, etc., so that's fair enough | 00:43 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: not all problems can be solved by just throwing endless piles of money at it | 00:43 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Since Feb 11th? | 00:43 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I very much know this. | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | yes | 00:43 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Yeah, I meant before that. | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | the device schedule changes are part of why the strategy changes happened, not the other way around | 00:44 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Thought as much | 00:44 |
| Jaffa | Which suggests that Nokia do indeed need to outsource as much as possible due to the inability to execute quickly enough :-( | 00:44 |
| Jaffa | I 'spose it's a "how do you get to $X?" "Well, first, I wouldn't start from here" | 00:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nokia could've pre-empted the iPhone if they'd put the necessary investment behind Maemo from day 1. | 00:46 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: some might say that it was excessive attention that derailed a perfectly good project | 00:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Instead they've faffed their way to irrelevancy. | 00:46 |
| anidel | GeneralAntilles: from day 1 it wasn't supposed to be a phone, me thinks? | 00:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | And good riddance to bad rubbish. | 00:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | anidel: s/iPhone/iOS/ then. | 00:47 |
| lardman | well in any case that's the past, and the question is what (if anything other than Win Phone 7) they plan to do about the future? | 00:47 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Nothing, it seems :-( | 00:47 |
| Jaffa | There's still talk of "disruptive technologies" but lay off loads of your R&D staff? Hmm. | 00:47 |
| lardman | hard to know in the short term, there's probably lots of posturing | 00:47 |
| anidel | GeneralAntilles: :) | 00:47 |
| lardman | Jaffa: where are the lay-offs coming from? | 00:48 |
| lardman | from the Linux guys? | 00:48 |
| Jaffa | lardman: According to The Register and other sites, "mostly from Symbian and MeeGo" | 00:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | "We'll keep these three guys working in the basement for the next three years, check in on them every 3 months or so. See if they've got anything industry rattling." | 00:48 |
| lardman | oh, well Symbian I can understand, but Meego too is craptastic | 00:48 |
| Jaffa | lardman: http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/04/27/nokia-announces-next-steps-in-transformation/?sf1382047=1&sf1382053=1 | 00:48 |
| Jaffa | 4000 ppl laid off by end of 2012. | 00:49 |
| Jaffa | 3000 further moved to Accenture | 00:49 |
| anidel | how many people Nokia had working on MeeGo? | 00:49 |
| Jaffa | On the former, "The planned reductions will have the greatest impact on the Symbian and MeeGo" | 00:49 |
| anidel | 7000 people in total, how many could have been working on MeeGo? | 00:49 |
| anidel | lardman: MeeGo is supposed to die in Nokia next year. | 00:50 |
| anidel | lardman: Symbian in 2013... | 00:50 |
| thiago_home | about 1000 worked in MeeGo | 00:50 |
| anidel | so | 00:50 |
| lardman | anidel: re number, that's a good question, and it dying do you have a source? | 00:50 |
| Jaffa | Maybe my N900 won't get thrown out of a window before Nokia's MeeGo-compatible device is released; maybe that'll be sufficient and have just enough of a hobbyist ecosystem until another major manufacturer is deeply committed to mainstream MeeGo handests. Maybe we'll get some promising news next month... | 00:51 |
| * TSCHAKeee is depressed | 00:51 | |
| GeneralAntilles | raster still insists Samsung has something worthwhile. | 00:51 |
| lardman | this doesn't paint a particularly rosy picture, do we think the promised Harmattan device will also fall by the wayside? | 00:51 |
| mikhas | raster would never tell you that Enlightment sucks, either | 00:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | mikhas: *g* | 00:52 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: what in particular? | 00:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman: I wouldn't take any announced plans of Nokia's with a positive light. | 00:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman: something not Bada. | 00:52 |
| lardman | certainly not their opensource-friendliness ;) | 00:52 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: well you can port Meego to Samsung devices without too much hassle, so year | 00:53 |
| lardman | yeah | 00:53 |
| lardman | perhaps needing a year ;) | 00:53 |
| Jaffa | lardman: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/nokia_cuts_memo/ "the majority of MeeGo activities are planned to be discontinued by the end of June 2012" | 00:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | I wonder how long I'll be able to stand using the N900. | 00:53 |
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| * thiago_home will just say that el reg got a lot of stuff wrong | 00:54 | |
| thiago_home | I will obviously not say what | 00:54 |
| * w00t_ agrees | 00:54 | |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: There are times when mine's so slow and laggy I almost throw it across the room | 00:54 |
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| lardman | Jaffa: that's what I feared | 00:54 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: w00t_: That's good, they are the Daily Mail of tech journalism | 00:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: me too. | 00:54 |
| lardman | I'm looking for something new | 00:54 |
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| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: can't say that makes the picture any less bleak. :) | 00:54 |
| lbt | Jaffa: yeah ... a projected activity in IT in 12 months... | 00:55 |
| lardman | once a decent handset with a kb comes out I'll be on it | 00:55 |
| anidel | need to go home...ttyl | 00:55 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: w00t_: But, to be brutally honest, it's *possible* in a big organisation which is undergoing such a transformation that they've heard something that hasn't yet been officially percolated to you :-/ | 00:55 |
| * GeneralAntilles has had far too much optimism punished by Nokia to hold out any more. | 00:55 | |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, you were born grumpy :P | 00:56 |
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| thiago_home | Jaffa: yes, it's possible | 00:56 |
| * Jaffa really hopes (having no experience with anything LG* at all) that the "prototypes" are so much more than that. | 00:56 | |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, nah, it was beaten into me. | 00:56 |
| w00t_ | I have faith in MeeGo, I don't really care about individual manufacturers | 00:56 |
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| thiago_home | Jaffa: but I think I know slightly more than your average leaker though | 00:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | w00t_: without any manufacturers it's all just a lot of handwaving. | 00:56 |
| mikhas | lcuk, no I think GeneralAntilles is right wrt. Nokia | 00:57 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Faith in MeeGo for what? A standalone platform for OEMs or a consumer brand and ecosystem like Android? | 00:57 |
| * auke holds a bucket under thiago_home to stop the leakage | 00:57 | |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Fair enough | 00:57 |
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| thiago_home | so MeeGo won't dominate the world on the schedule we had for Christmas | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | so what? | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | we'll take more time but we'll do it right | 00:58 |
| mikhas | hum ... I heard that before | 00:58 |
| mikhas | ;-) | 00:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | mikhas, was just typing that. . . . | 00:58 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: So (and this'll sound churlish and selfish), I've invested my time in seeing the platform grow from 2005. I don't want a device which'll be dropped by its manufacturer, will not have any of the shiny services other platforms have because of a lack of commercial uptake. | 00:59 |
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| ShadowJK | I don't suffer much lag from M5/N900, but it takes some discipline to avoid.. | 00:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK: mostly caused by evil JS-heavy websites. | 01:00 |
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| Jaffa | thiago_home: So, we'll all go away, wait for someone to do something (To Be Defined) with MeeGo and in the meantime start buying and developing for other OSes. Why'd we come back? | 01:00 |
| * lcuk goes and finds out if portal2 will run on ubuntu | 01:00 | |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Now, if MeeGo's aim *is* to be a standalone OEM proposition, none of that matters. | 01:00 |
| thiago_home | at this point, I don't know | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | but given that Android has decided to close the source, we have a vacuum to fill | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | the industry attention that we had hasn't changed | 01:01 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: if it doesn't get uptake from OEMs, it won't get that commercial uptake you want, so what else would its aim be? | 01:01 |
| Jaffa | ShadowJK: GeneralAntilles: I've stopped using my Bluetooth headphones and try and make sure no app is running when I'm not using it :-( | 01:01 |
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| lcuk | gnite guys \o | 01:02 |
| * GeneralAntilles notes the Lenovo finally updated Ubuntu. | 01:02 | |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: nite | 01:02 |
| ShadowJK | GeneralAntilles, i use opera almost always now. It really shines. Except when a site doesn't work in it. Fennec, well, just displaying google.com makes you bash your head against brickwall :) | 01:02 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I'm trying to suggest there is a difference in strategy between developing an offering which is useful to the mfrs but of little benefit to end-users (e.g. Android in photocopiers or car headunits or GPSes); or whether MeeGo builds a brand and an ecosystem (like Android) which is largely common across a wide plethora of devices. | 01:03 |
| ShadowJK | and i'm not even counting startup time for fennec | 01:03 |
| * gabrbedd thinks we'll have a better picture of MeeGo's future after the SF conference. | 01:03 | |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: I don't see them as mutually exclusive | 01:03 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: The latter is still an OEM proposition, indeed. | 01:04 |
| w00t_ | MeeGo on more devices, benefits the MeeGo brand | 01:04 |
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| * GeneralAntilles notes updating to 11.04 with Firefox in fullscreen is a Bad Idea. | 01:04 | |
| Jaffa | w00t_: But if, as a consumer, I don't see "MeeGo"; why do I care about it? (Apart from elements of cost and developer tools for custom apps) | 01:04 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: That's what the first strategy means. | 01:05 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: It means the consumer advantage of OEMs picking MeeGo is reduced cost. But there's no taking Angry Birds and running it on your car, for example. | 01:05 |
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| Jaffa | thiago_home: BTW, your point about taking the time to "do it right" doesn't help when iOS and Android are iterating and innovating more quickly. So the gap'll just increase unless there's some magic pixie dust which means not only will it be right but more'll get done in the same amount of time :- | 01:06 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, why? if the device is compliant it should have access to some kind of store or mall and hence angry birds on the motorway is on | 01:06 |
| w00t_ | well, afaik, nothing stops app stores (like AppUp) from installing to your car | 01:06 |
| * lcuk is not here though | 01:06 | |
| w00t_ | ...whether or not that answers your question... | 01:06 |
| Jaffa | Technically, sure. | 01:07 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: indeed. Running after the leaders isn't easy. | 01:07 |
| thiago_home | the solution is to do something different, something they don't do | 01:07 |
| thiago_home | don't try to beat them at their game, change the game | 01:07 |
| Jaffa | But if that *is* the aim of the MeeGo project; how about picking an architectural and UI strategy and actually delivering it? | 01:08 |
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| ShadowJK | ouch | 01:08 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: what sort of strategy? | 01:08 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Brilliant inspirational stuff; but also hard to do in an open way. | 01:08 |
| thiago_home | "do it in an open way" is the game-changing | 01:08 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Any. One which delivers *something*. Rather than "ah, this release our UX will be $RANDOM" | 01:09 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: and yes, pick one strategy and do it | 01:09 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Right. Now let's see that actually being done. | 01:09 |
| Jaffa | No more big reveals. | 01:09 |
| thiago_home | agreed | 01:09 |
| arfoll_ | RANDOM=xbmc | 01:09 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: that's easier said than done | 01:09 |
| Jaffa | TSG getting involved in discussions rather than rubber stamping "working groups" that were decided on some teleconference. | 01:09 |
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| thiago_home | Jaffa: tbh, I much prefer that to the TSG handing down everything | 01:10 |
| thiago_home | let the decisions be made by the people who are doing the work | 01:10 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I know. But I've been involved in a strategic shift for a company following a "we change or we die" moment, which involved massive shifts in technology; process and retraining. | 01:10 |
| w00t_ | (especially when I get the feeling, given some of the recent conversations on meego-dev etc, that Nokia were supposed to do work that basically wasn't done - you can't exactly plan for that) | 01:11 |
| mikhas | which company? when? what? | 01:11 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: But we carefully thought about things at the beginning, but realised we also had to deliver something which people would buy in 3-4 years when we were finished. | 01:11 |
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| mikhas | what was the outcome, I mean | 01:11 |
| Jaffa | mikhas: The outcome is that after millions of GBP in internal investment, our first client went live a few months ago; two more are going live this year and there are three other implementation projects now starting up | 01:11 |
| Jaffa | mikhas: Bit of a relief really :-) | 01:12 |
| Jaffa | (first client on the new platform) | 01:12 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Of course, with hindsight more open discussion and less closed thinking would've revealed those problems earlier. | 01:13 |
| * lardman thinks we should have Maemo re-union meeting rather than a Meego conf, or perhaps combine the two | 01:14 | |
| Jaffa | w00t_: MeeGo wasn't my strategy; but how can you have faith in something which no-one *needs* to have succeed | 01:14 |
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| Jaffa | As a corp. Intel don't need MeeGo to succeed; neither do anyone else involved. Nokia did, as it was the one life line. | 01:14 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: that's wrong | 01:15 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Presume you're not going to the US? | 01:15 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Which bit? | 01:15 |
| lardman | unfortunately no time, but will try hard to make an Autumn conf assuming there's one on | 01:15 |
| w00t_ | Intel aren't just doing this out of the good charitable nature of their heart, they have reasons for pushing this along and staying involved - especially now | 01:15 |
| gabrbedd | Jaffa: that's actually one reason why we chose a MeeGo strategy... because at the time it looked like Nokia /needed/ MeeGo to succeed. | 01:15 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I didn't say they were being charitable, nor that there aren't commercial interests in it. | 01:16 |
| w00t_ | Nokia never *needed* this to succeed, as witnessed by february 11, there are plenty of other options for them to explore - perhaps in tandem | 01:16 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: But Intel won't fail if MeeGo does. It sells chips. Those chips run Windows, Android, MeeGo, .... LF doesn't need MeeGo; hell it sponsored the Android Builder Summit. | 01:16 |
| w00t_ | likewise, I don't *need* MeeGo | 01:17 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Nokia's strategy *up* to Feb 11th was that MeeGo was the future for competing in the next gen mobile space. With that strategy, Nokia *did* need MeeGo to succeed. | 01:17 |
| w00t_ | it is where I choose to put my time and efforts, though | 01:17 |
| w00t_ | (both for work and play) | 01:17 |
| Jaffa | They just changed the strategy, so now they need WP7 to succeed | 01:17 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Absolutely. | 01:17 |
| w00t_ | no, they don't even need that, inertia will carry them a long way | 01:17 |
| w00t_ | though arguably less far now they've set their platform on fire :- | 01:18 |
| w00t_ | ) | 01:18 |
| Jaffa | Fine, "they need WP7 to succeed [to be seen as a viable competitor to Apple and Samsung/HTC/... in the high end mobile supersmartphone next-generation OS space]" | 01:18 |
| Jaffa | i.e. they *need* WP7 to succeed to make the corporate strategy succeed. | 01:19 |
| Jaffa | That's not to say the corporate strategy can't be changed again. | 01:19 |
| Jaffa | But which companies involved in MeeGo have a coprorate strategy which is dependent on MeeGo's success? | 01:19 |
| w00t_ | the OEMs | 01:20 |
| Jaffa | Which OEMs? | 01:20 |
| w00t_ | there are some producing netbooks, I forget who | 01:20 |
| Jaffa | Fujitsu have a MeeGo netbook. | 01:20 |
| w00t_ | .. and obviously, whoever else jumps on board | 01:20 |
| w00t_ | (oh, wetab too, if you consider them a mfg) | 01:20 |
| lardman | but will people jump on board now? | 01:21 |
| Jaffa | Not one which is going to change the world, no ;-) | 01:21 |
| w00t_ | lardman: I don't know | 01:21 |
| mikhas | wetab ... ahem | 01:21 |
| w00t_ | (safest answer) | 01:21 |
| mikhas | well, if that's your strategy, you're fucked | 01:21 |
| w00t_ | but my thoughts are that there is a market need for MeeGo | 01:21 |
| Jaffa | But Fujitsu have *one* MeeGo netbook in one market. That's hardly the core of the corporate strategy. | 01:21 |
| * mikhas played with one this week | 01:22 | |
| lardman | I think there's a need for something, but whether a company would go with Meego and the infighting and requirement to be open all the time vs doing it in house, I don't know.... | 01:22 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: thiago_home's point there about an open source (i.e. cheap) contender to Android with the closed source development is valid. | 01:22 |
| w00t_ | lardman: there's no requirement for _vendors_ to be open all the time | 01:22 |
| w00t_ | even if it is probably statistically cheaper for them to do that | 01:22 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: But that relegate's MeeGo to the Windows CE of the Chinese bottom feeders; since the big manufacturers (Samsung, Motorola et al) can still get the Honeycomb source | 01:23 |
| lardman | w00t_: but even the standard packages are changing day by day, so that advantage is also not present | 01:23 |
| w00t_ | lardman: in meego.com, they are | 01:23 |
| w00t_ | nothing stops you forking meego.com's obs | 01:23 |
| Jaffa | lardman: A company would have to be pretty convinced (or desperate) to buy totally in to a platform which (from their point of view) was abandonned by one of its creators. | 01:23 |
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| w00t_ | in fact, i'd expect any sane vendor to do pretty much exactly that | 01:23 |
| lardman | Jaffa: quite, or they could pick the bones and go in house | 01:24 |
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| mikhas | Jaffa, dont you think it's the other way around? | 01:24 |
| w00t_ | you want to build on a stable, unchanging platform | 01:24 |
| w00t_ | also, i agree with mikhas | 01:24 |
| w00t_ | with nokia not beng there, there's *more* reason for others to jump in | 01:24 |
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| w00t_ | more chance for differentiation, and less chance of being competed with by the people supposedly building the platform | 01:24 |
| mikhas | yes, Nokia can be scary | 01:24 |
| Jaffa | Have you ever been in a corporate risk meeting, *especially* around technology? | 01:24 |
| w00t_ | and I actually think that the recent activities with the handset WG mirror that | 01:25 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: More risk for you, because you haven't got an industry behemoth doing the heavy lifting | 01:25 |
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| mikhas | I dont get that part, really. | 01:25 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: I'm not arguing that there is risk | 01:25 |
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| Jaffa | mikhas: It depends who you imagine the vendor is. | 01:26 |
| w00t_ | but really, when you have a platform that is fairly well advanced software-wise (finally), and still have one huge company pouring resources into it, it's a calculated risk | 01:26 |
| w00t_ | (not that I imagine nokia will jump out yet either, even assuming the register is 100% complete and they're firing the last of the meego people in what, 2013? | 01:26 |
| w00t_ | ) | 01:27 |
| w00t_ | *correct | 01:27 |
| Jaffa | If I'm a relatively small handset manufacturer, Android look(s|ed) attractive to me because I could get it at low cost and start shifting devices which would be known to work; I could differentiate on cost or quality/features - but basically I had no concerns about my software platform. | 01:27 |
| w00t_ | why? | 01:27 |
| w00t_ | (as in, why do you have no concerns) | 01:27 |
| Jaffa | If I'm a relatively small handset manufacturer, MeeGo does *not* look attractive to me, because I have to do more of the work to get it to the same level to compete with the people using Android (say) | 01:28 |
| w00t_ | as a small handset manufacturer, there is no guarentee you can get any future versions of Android | 01:28 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Because it's a proven technology shipped on millions of devices. | 01:28 |
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| w00t_ | how is that risk-free? | 01:28 |
| thiago_home | different risks | 01:28 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I didn't say (or mean to say) risk-free. | 01:28 |
| thiago_home | of course, right now, MeeGo isn't ready | 01:28 |
| Jaffa | But the risk is hedged/punted. | 01:28 |
| w00t_ | okay, perhaps I misinterpreted | 01:28 |
| Jaffa | And the costs are lower. | 01:28 |
| lardman | there is equally no guarantee that you'll get a future version of Meego though | 01:28 |
| thiago_home | so you can't just get it for free and put on your devices. You need to put some R&D into it. | 01:29 |
| Jaffa | Whereas with MeeGo my costs are higher and the risks are higher. | 01:29 |
| w00t_ | lardman: in what sense? | 01:29 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: What if Intel abandon it too? | 01:29 |
| lardman | cf future versions on Android | 01:29 |
| lardman | s/on/of | 01:29 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: there is that risk, yes | 01:29 |
| arfoll_ | but you end up with something different, otherwise you do yet another cheap android phone | 01:29 |
| mikhas | Well, but that's the whole idea, no? The costs of furthering MeeGo Core is carried by all vendors. Which is still much cheaper as if one vendor had to do it all alone. | 01:29 |
| w00t_ | mikhas: the argument is that there is no point in paying to do meego, because android is done | 01:30 |
| lardman | agreed, as long as a decent number of vendors are involved | 01:30 |
| w00t_ | I don't really agree with that, because that leaves you with basically nothing to differentiate on except price | 01:30 |
| lardman | to mikhas that was | 01:30 |
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| mikhas | w00t_, hm, software is never "done" | 01:30 |
| thiago_home | if you're satisfied with android, use it | 01:30 |
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| thiago_home | if you need something sligthly different, good luck convincing Google | 01:30 |
| w00t_ | and when you look at the prices of e.g. the ZTE blade, there isn't much differentiation you can do without paying people to use your devices.. | 01:30 |
| arfoll_ | i agree with w00t fighting on price is not a good position | 01:31 |
| Jaffa | Now, if I'm a *big* manufacturer (let's say HTC (now) or Samsung): there's no way I would've made MeeGo the core of my business whilst Nokia were the only people shipping (or going to ship) MeeGo handsets. I'd wait to see how there's panned out. But I do want to differentiate from the other Android manufacturers. But if Nokia have done a cost/benefit analysis and decided MeeGo doesn't let them compete with *me*, why am I going to move to the platform they aba | 01:31 |
| mikhas | there are new concepts, new ideas all the time. once you realize you cannot influence the direction of Android, MeeGo starts to look very attractive | 01:31 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: so, going by that logic, why are there now suddenly manufacturers in the handset WG where before, there was nokia? | 01:31 |
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| lardman | for r&d perhaps, but not your mainline products | 01:31 |
| Jaffa | Because it's an industry body to join to hedge your bets and do R&D | 01:32 |
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| thiago_home | Jaffa: you may also notice that Nokia's ambition is slightly higher | 01:32 |
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| lardman | but equally we're not in a position where much is finalised afaict, so developing new cutting edge UIs isn't the game plan atm | 01:32 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: The flipside of your argument is why does the Linux Foundation support, and encourage adoption of, LiMo; MeeGo and Android - if MeeGo is "their" platform of the future | 01:32 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: the role of the LF is to further linux, not meego | 01:33 |
| thiago_home | the LF has as their business foster open source and linux | 01:33 |
| thiago_home | if XYZ matches that, they'll encourage it | 01:33 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: And yes, if you can get to the point where manufacturers are collaborating on a new platform, you've reinvented OHA but without Google. That may or may not be a good thing (for me), but there are probably good reasons for it as a manufacturer. | 01:33 |
| w00t_ | I'd say they may have their preferences as to which they'd rather see 'win' in the end (more and less open), but, if it's linux, it's in their interests | 01:33 |
| Jaffa | And *exactly* the same applies to $VENDOR's stock price. | 01:34 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: OHA is why android got to where it is now | 01:34 |
| thiago_home | android had several years' headstart | 01:34 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: literally, yeah | 01:35 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: And more now, according to your "and we can get it right" | 01:35 |
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| thiago_home | android did not start with the g1 | 01:35 |
| w00t_ | i read about it the other day, started in 2005 | 01:35 |
| w00t_ | oh, sorry, no | 01:35 |
| w00t_ | purchased by google in 2005 | 01:35 |
| w00t_ | so presumably started before that, even | 01:35 |
| Jaffa | Maemo started in 2004. Time doesn't make you the winner, execution does. Money does. Investment does. | 01:35 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: execution has always been maemo's problem more so than money, I really think | 01:36 |
| w00t_ | the vision has always been there, the execution of it, less so | 01:36 |
| Jaffa | My point is that all the evidence so far suggests that no major manufacturer is going to invest in mainstream MeeGo devices within 6 months. And they'll effectively be the first consumer MeeGo devices in the same way that the first WP7 devices show "promise" but have rough edges. | 01:37 |
| w00t_ | well, there will be harmattan | 01:37 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: appearances can be deceiving | 01:37 |
| w00t_ | (if nothing else) | 01:37 |
| Jaffa | So, add on another 6-12 months (depending on level of investment (i.e. commitment)) to get those polished off. | 01:37 |
| w00t_ | but.. i'd also really expect this year to be the year when more meego products start appearing anyway | 01:37 |
| w00t_ | we're now just over a year since meego's start | 01:37 |
| * auke wonders about #meego-bar :) | 01:38 | |
| thiago_home | auke: they're probably discussing development | 01:38 |
| auke | hehehe | 01:38 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: And, we know from Nokia, that there is nothing else. So Harmattan is - perhaps unfairly now - a plaything to experiment with MeeGo APIs for brave developers before the "real" devices start shipping. | 01:38 |
| w00t_ | i'm sorry, but this is a "general discussion about meego" (per the topic) :-p | 01:38 |
| w00t_ | I should probably go onto hacking anyway | 01:39 |
| auke | meego != nokia ... ;) | 01:39 |
| w00t_ | I have patches that won't write themselves | 01:39 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: "More MeeGo products" - there's approximately one so far. Available in one country. + the STB guys (but that's my OEM argument - it's of no interest to me if my STB runs MeeGo) | 01:39 |
| arfoll_ | Jaffa, it's pretty awesome you can install XBMC on it ;-) | 01:40 |
| lardman | Random thought - it seems to me that being able to develop in-house is faster than needing to do it in the open, is this a fundamental problem for the mobile phone industry trying to use a shared version of Linux? | 01:40 |
| Jaffa | auke: That's my point - the project needs to choose a direction; and my contention is that MeeGo == Intel & ...? doesn't have the same motivation to see MeeGo's short term success in the consumer market that Nokia had. | 01:41 |
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| w00t_ | Jaffa: otoh, it might actually have more motivation to getting software in a shippable state | 01:41 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: But which software do you focus on? Given that both WeTab and the Harmattan device have custom UXes... | 01:42 |
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| w00t_ | Jaffa: http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux/ | 01:43 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: So, and this is the point that lbt was trying to make after #feb11 (but was told, "Nokia pulling back doesn't affect MeeGo like that"), forget the large investment in "reference" UXes. | 01:43 |
| w00t_ | why? | 01:43 |
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| w00t_ | if anything, they are more crucial than ever | 01:43 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I'd rather the investment in the stack from the kernel to the UI framework which allowed compelling UIs whilst doing excellent battery management autonomously. | 01:43 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Because nobody's shipping them. | 01:44 |
| w00t_ | or do you really think that OEMs would have built anything on android when handed an image which booted to a console...? :) | 01:44 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: And every time a MeeGo vendor shows something it's billed in the press as "MeeGo's new UI" | 01:44 |
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| w00t_ | the media is stupid | 01:44 |
| w00t_ | not much you can do about that | 01:44 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I don't disagree | 01:44 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: Presumably building something from scratch to a console, with good battery management and something like Qt & QML, would be Hard. And therefore being given that as bootable image is shiny. | 01:45 |
| lardman | I think a working reference set of apps is needed to demonstrate what could be done, but vendors will want to differentiate so really the main work should, as Jaffa said, go into the underlying core | 01:45 |
| w00t_ | the underlying core is in place, it works, and works well | 01:45 |
| w00t_ | (and it has since 1.0) | 01:46 |
| Jaffa | But if the expectation (and experience to date) is that each manufacturer will develop their own UI, the investment there in the core should be as little as possible. | 01:46 |
| lardman | battery management? | 01:46 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I find that very hard to believe. | 01:46 |
| w00t_ | I haven't seen anybody making products out of it | 01:46 |
| w00t_ | lardman: n900 != every other device | 01:46 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Writing a QML app doesn't stop updating the screen when it's out of focus or the display is locked | 01:46 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: according to you, UX isn't the focus | 01:46 |
| lardman | w00t_: sure, what other devices does it have great battery management on? | 01:46 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: ? | 01:47 |
| w00t_ | lardman: anything that can charge a battery? I dunno, it manages to charge my lenovo just fine | 01:47 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Qt & QML are part of the core delivery. Building a UI shell which nobody ships shouldn't be the focus. | 01:47 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: screen locking is part of the UI shell | 01:47 |
| lardman | w00t_: charging != efficient use/management of course ;) | 01:47 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: 'out of focus' is part of the UI shell | 01:48 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I don't mean "battery management" as in "I can plug it in and it recharges" nor "I leave it sitting on a table and it lasts a day". I mean it makes it harder to write battery sucking apps than it is to write battery saving apps (even with whizzy UI effects) | 01:48 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I'm sorry, you've lost me. | 01:48 |
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| * ShadowJK vaguely recalls someone finding some sensor code that constantly polls the sensor. Maybe that was acc, or als, I forget :) | 01:49 | |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: screen locking, and focusing of applications, everything to do with application interaction in fact is, part of a UX | 01:49 |
| lardman | Jaffa: well sitting on a table and lasting a day would be good for starters ;) | 01:49 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: QML already won't draw when it isn't visible, as far as I'm aware, so if your UX doesn't tell QML it isn't visible, that is your UX's problem | 01:49 |
| w00t_ | and per your definition, out of scope | 01:49 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: OK, so if the UX *is* in the core - by your contention - that battery management's all there, or planned to be right? Because no-one's talking about it and there's various articles about "how to ensure your app doesn't draw too much power" | 01:50 |
| mikhas | UX cant be out of scope since we need to provide the integration | 01:50 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: competing requirements | 01:50 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: Are you being deliberately argumentative? I said "as little as possible", if that includes hook points for power management that's a requirement for the core. | 01:50 |
| ShadowJK | So somewhere QT discards focus information that it receives from X? | 01:51 |
| w00t_ | tbqh, I'm all in favor of a device which only allows one application to run at a time, and has functionality to soft-shutdown apps that background | 01:51 |
| mikhas | ShadowJK, once you enter QGraphicsView territory, yes | 01:51 |
| w00t_ | it would be much friendlier on battery life, and other resource usage | 01:51 |
| mikhas | but window activation and window focus handling (as in: X11 window) is always there | 01:51 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: i'm not, i'm trying to understand where you're coming from | 01:52 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Besides, battery management is more than just "don't draw". It's disabling timers, it's providing APIs to align network access (as the heartbeat stuff on Maemo tried to do) | 01:52 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: i don't think we fundamentally disagree | 01:52 |
| mikhas | well, "always" - if you have a X11 window manager | 01:52 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I'm saying you say the MeeGo core is there. | 01:52 |
| Jaffa | Err, scratch that. | 01:52 |
| Jaffa | That was silly. | 01:52 |
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| w00t_ | honestly, all platforms (maemo, android, the lot) suck at battery | 01:53 |
| ShadowJK | I have 8 xterms on my N900/Maemo now, streaming various data, I'd hate it if I had to cycle between them constantly to keep them running in order to not lose data ;p | 01:53 |
| thiago_home | ShadowJK: running != painting | 01:54 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I believe you said the MeeGo Core is basically "done" (FSVO "done"). I'm saying that, unless there's a load of cool stuff I'm not aware of (in which case it needs advertising more), there is still loads of room for architectural designs from the kernel all the way to the UI framework (and, if you want, your reference UX) to make it *easy* to be well-behaved and conserve as much power as possible. | 01:54 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: yeah | 01:54 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: wayland! | 01:54 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: What happened to "MeeGo can do something different to compete"? ;-) | 01:54 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: 'done' in that context was 'it runs on devices, and runs well' | 01:54 |
| w00t_ | I don't think software is ever really done | 01:54 |
| Jaffa | There's a lot of strength in Apple's argument that "we'll let you multitask using these APIs to accomplish certain tasks in the background" and then grow those APIs over time. | 01:55 |
| lardman | well is in the eye of the beholder | 01:55 |
| w00t_ | I still think a good solution would be to SIGSTOP backgrounded processes (plus other magic to force close resources that aren't asked to be kept open) | 01:55 |
| lardman | though I've not tried the most recent Meego releases on the N900, but certainly they previously worked well to warm my hands while holding the device | 01:56 |
| w00t_ | lardman: the n900 had no power management at all, it does now, so the situation has improved | 01:56 |
| auke | wayland | 01:56 |
| auke | systemd | 01:56 |
| w00t_ | I think in the DE images, the screen even turns off | 01:56 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I've been proposing that for years on maemo-developers and certain @nokia.com email addresses said "just fix the buggy applications, all you need to do is turn on R&D mode, SSH in, run powertop, add debug symbols so you can see what it is that's doing the work, profile the app and then you're done" | 01:56 |
| auke | plenty of new stuff coming... | 01:56 |
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| lardman | auke: coming to Meego? | 01:57 |
| Hydreee | hello?? | 01:57 |
| Jaffa | lardman: yup | 01:57 |
| auke | lardman: sure | 01:57 |
| auke | systemd is pretty much done for 1.3 | 01:57 |
| auke | the core is finished | 01:57 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: i'm actually open to helping patch this sort of implementation up and work at upstreaming it into the reference ux as an option | 01:57 |
| Hydreee | Anyone here running meego on an eeepc 900a? | 01:57 |
| lardman | which is great, but again it's a moving target, and moving rather fast afaict | 01:57 |
| auke | wayland is in pdev stage | 01:57 |
| auke | Hydreee: was, ages ago, yes | 01:57 |
| Jaffa | auke: But isn't there a need to design APIs for app authors to fit into? Or is the thought that ideal autonomous power management can be fully autonomous? | 01:57 |
| thiago_home | auke: pdev? | 01:57 |
| w00t_ | product development(?) | 01:58 |
| auke | dev/proto | 01:58 |
| auke | typo, I just meant 'dev' | 01:58 |
| Jaffa | Cos this is really interesting stuff, but where's the wiki page describing the plan for how it all fits together? Where're the interesting design discussions about how to make it work happening? | 01:58 |
| thiago_home | that also doesn't make sense. Everything is in development :-) | 01:58 |
| mikhas | auke, is it realistic to expect wayland for 1.3 already? | 01:58 |
| lardman | Jaffa: +1 | 01:58 |
| thiago_home | mikhas: wayland in 1.3 would be "you can play with it" | 01:58 |
| thiago_home | not "entire system working perfectly with it" | 01:58 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: depends | 01:59 |
| auke | Jaffa: meego arch list for some stuff | 01:59 |
| w00t_ | it's quite far along | 01:59 |
| mikhas | thiago_home, well, I can already imagine how it will go | 01:59 |
| Jaffa | auke: Sorry, don't believe you. | 01:59 |
| auke | wayland will be a 'toy' until late 1.3 | 01:59 |
| mikhas | there will be a kill list of apps/libs that use Xlib | 01:59 |
| Jaffa | auke: I don't mean your (good) announcement of "systemd is coming soon" | 01:59 |
| Hydreee | Auke: maybe you can help me... i install meego just fine off the USB, but it won't boot without the USB drive plugged in. How do I make it boot from the local drive? | 01:59 |
| auke | Jaffa: most features are still in internal discussion | 01:59 |
| Jaffa | auke: I'm subscribed to meego-arch - I'm an architecture. | 01:59 |
| lardman | auke: someone should be employed to parse the lists and generate blog posts summarising useful info then I'd say | 01:59 |
| Jaffa | auke: Right. Why is it internal discussion? | 01:59 |
| Jaffa | s/an architecture/an architect/ | 01:59 |
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| Jaffa | auke: We've just been discussing that MeeGo competes on openness... | 02:00 |
| auke | I try to do my part - hence my systemd posts | 02:00 |
| auke | the other people need to do their parts | 02:00 |
| thiago_home | any company discusses what they want to invest on privately first | 02:00 |
| mikhas | (and your conference talks) | 02:00 |
| w00t_ | it is a little unrealistic for things to be open from day 0 | 02:00 |
| ShadowJK | w00t_, actually I think when not using any of the buggy things, N900/Maemo has excellent battery life. Like, I have 2 days standby with xchat following 30-something irc channels (on 2g and wifi), and a simple irc-powersaving script (I meant to make a proper powersaving proxy but havent had time yet). Considering it wasn't that many years ago that xchat on my PC was so heavy that I could tell by everything else pausing whenever GTK was adding another text | 02:01 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: What the aim and ideal for the project and what people are willing to pay for are different. | 02:01 |
| auke | it's hard to tell people that they also need to start announcing their work to the public before it is working :) | 02:01 |
| ShadowJK | line of chat, 2 days on a tiny battery seems just awesome :-) | 02:01 |
| w00t_ | ShadowJK: it has excellent battery life if you don't use it | 02:01 |
| lardman | w00t_: yes, but while things are happening behind closed doors it's nice for those outside to know what the direction is | 02:01 |
| Hydreee | I found this post, but I can not edit the extlinux.conf because I don't have permissions... this is my first time using a linux os. :( ugh! | 02:01 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Sorry, that's a bullshit argument and one we've been hearing since 2005. "You can't expect things to change overnight" | 02:01 |
| Hydreee | http://likeablebias.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/meego-linux-on-asus-eeepc-900a/ | 02:01 |
| w00t_ | once you use it, it goes downhill fast | 02:01 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: no, it really isn't feasible | 02:01 |
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| auke | afk boring meeting with other managers, bbl | 02:01 |
| w00t_ | even in oss-land, individuals decide when _they_ are ready to talk about their work | 02:01 |
| mikhas | and they often compete in secret | 02:02 |
| Jaffa | auke: But it's not an architecture list, nor will you ever have any input into designing a system which meet's application authors' requirements, nor any new architects, if you don't discuss the direction. | 02:02 |
| w00t_ | to varying degrees where I know some people who don't put code in public until they are happy with it | 02:02 |
| mikhas | only to do this "oh you did the same for 6 months" posts | 02:02 |
| thiago_home | and if you work for a company, a company's decisions are its own | 02:02 |
| w00t_ | (and this is individuals...) | 02:02 |
| thiago_home | where resources get allocated, etc. | 02:02 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Which is why there are things like the Linux Collaboration Summit, Plumbers Conference and Ubuntu Desktop Summit to try and coordinate in the open | 02:02 |
| w00t_ | in companies, you also have to deal with ..what thiago said | 02:02 |
| thiago_home | meego wants wayland. Sure. Who's going to do the work? | 02:02 |
| thiago_home | anybody raising their hands? | 02:02 |
| w00t_ | btw | 02:03 |
| w00t_ | I am not arguing that meego is *good* at communication | 02:03 |
| thiago_home | nor am I. There's a lot to be improved. | 02:03 |
| ShadowJK | w00t_, well, compared to a symbian phone getting 8 hours for "idle on irc" ;p | 02:03 |
| w00t_ | I think there should be a lot more developers talking more about what they do, and doing more of what they do in public places | 02:03 |
| Jaffa | Do you know see that this argument is one where you're saying that MeeGo can *never* succeed at its stated USP: openness. | 02:03 |
| * thiago_home can get 4 days on his N900 in Offline mode. | 02:03 | |
| lardman | w00t_: should that really be a developer's job though, is that a natural thing for them to do? | 02:04 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: I'm saying that it can't match your apparant idea of openness, because I don't think that exists except in any utopia | 02:04 |
| mikhas | lardman, who else could do it? | 02:04 |
| w00t_ | I think it can succeed in being far more open than anything else | 02:04 |
| mikhas | bloggers? lol ... | 02:04 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Why is discussing "we think Wayland will bring benefits X, Y & Z; which we can use with $OTHER_TECH to help power management" preclude the fact that a) you've still got an official architecture team and b) companies who are bought in to those conclusions | 02:04 |
| w00t_ | lardman: in open source land, it is common | 02:04 |
| lardman | mikhas: that;s the question, certainly not indies, but I doubt all devs want to blog | 02:04 |
| w00t_ | lardman: go look at planet gnome/kde/* | 02:04 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Your argument is the oldest strawman against open source: "anyone will be able to commit to our source tree, so how will we maintain quality" | 02:04 |
| mikhas | lardman, you could have people that interview devs | 02:04 |
| mikhas | and do regular write-ups | 02:04 |
| lardman | mikhas: indeed | 02:05 |
| mikhas | not everyone has good writing skills | 02:05 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: What do you think I'm arguing *for*? | 02:05 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: that's not at all what I'm saying. | 02:05 |
| Hydreee | Hey people, I just installed meego on my eee pc 900a.... how can I change the /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf file to look for the correct device on boot? | 02:05 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: I think the discussion on whether Wayland is good is past. People agree it will be good. | 02:05 |
| lardman | mikhas: we're singing from the same song sheet on that | 02:05 |
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| mikhas | so the barrier is perhaps not that devs wouldnt want to advertise their stuff, but they simply lack the skills | 02:05 |
| Jaffa | " thiago_home> meego wants wayland. Sure. Who's going to do the work? anybody raising their hands?" | 02:05 |
| lardman | Hydreee: use su | 02:05 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: right. Who is going to do that work? | 02:05 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: $companyrep coming out 2 months before work even commences and saying "hey, we're budgeting to put wayland on meego" | 02:05 |
| thiago_home | are we waiting for Intel to do it? | 02:05 |
| Hydreee | what is su? | 02:06 |
| thiago_home | ok, then let Intel make their resource decisions. | 02:06 |
| lardman | mikhas: or they are more motivated to work than to talk | 02:06 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: My point is that there's no discussion or vision for *why* it's good or why it contributes to a battery management strategy. | 02:06 |
| mikhas | lardman, one could try to let interested devs sign up :-) actually, the MeeGo Conf would be an excellent place for such interviews, once more | 02:06 |
| lardman | Hydreee: Google | 02:06 |
| Hydreee | haha | 02:06 |
| Hydreee | arghhh | 02:06 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: No. That's not what I'm asking for. | 02:06 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: because people already agreed it's good. | 02:06 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: discussion is over. | 02:06 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I'm saying that "the MeeGo architects" should be communicating and discussing their vision for the project and how technology choices (which then may or may not be implemented by someone willing to do the work) are good. | 02:07 |
| thiago_home | Jaffa: btw, not about battery, but about graphics performance. | 02:07 |
| Hydreee | ok, let me rephrase... how do you launch the su command from boot or within meego? | 02:07 |
| mikhas | lardman, if they are more motivated to work than to talk then we need to explain why some level of talk is *part* of their work | 02:07 |
| lardman | Hydreee: add su before whatever command you plan to use to edit the file, e.g. su vi filename_here | 02:07 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: auke said Wayland for battery | 02:07 |
| * thiago_home agrees to that last part | 02:07 | |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: The vision and technology choices laid out by the architects then inform anyone (including Intel managers and bean counters) coming along and saying "we want to improve graphcs performance" | 02:07 |
| thiago_home | agreed | 02:08 |
| Jaffa | That can be a private discussion between $COMPANY_WILLING_TO_DO_WORK and the Architects. | 02:08 |
| w00t_ | well, isn't this already there, though? | 02:08 |
| w00t_ | via the FEAs in bugzilla | 02:08 |
| lardman | not that I can see | 02:08 |
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| lardman | urgh | 02:08 |
| w00t_ | that's the reason all that was put in place, as I understood it | 02:08 |
| w00t_ | to provide the capability to roadmap | 02:08 |
| Jaffa | But $COMPANY_WILLING_TO_DO_WORK can see the arguments made and be advised "well, we've looked at this and you're right - you could do A, B and C to improve gfx performance; but Wayland is probably better for MeeGo in the long term - see here for the justification and how it fits into the larger picture" | 02:09 |
| lardman | Really the whole thing is very unclear, the website is bad especially the wiki design, but perhaps the info lurks in there somewhere unseen by most of us | 02:09 |
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| w00t_ | lardman: file bugs | 02:10 |
| w00t_ | (or raise discussions on the ML) | 02:10 |
| w00t_ | it's not going to change unless someone does | 02:10 |
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| lardman | I can't be the only one surely | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: you really think this debate will change anything now. It's been a birth defect of meego that the whole architecture and paradigms haven't been discussed publically | 02:10 |
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| w00t_ | lardman: if everyone passes the buck, then it'll never get changed | 02:10 |
| w00t_ | and that type of thinking is exactly how that happens :-) | 02:11 |
| lardman | w00t_: I know that, I don't have time atm to do any discussing though | 02:11 |
| lardman | well other than this evening :) | 02:11 |
| Hydreee | lardman: to use the su command do I have to launch the terminal? I'm guessing it's the equivalment to the command prompt in windows? forgive me, i'm a linux newb. :P | 02:11 |
| w00t_ | I have enough other commitments, so I guess it'll be waiting on someone else | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: and quite obviously a good few of srchitectural elementary guidelines not even been discussed "internally" | 02:11 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: I'm tired of making this argument. I've made it on the mailing lists, I made it in 2006. | 02:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | like "you MUST NOT poll" | 02:12 |
| lardman | Hydreee: yes, but really I think you should do some reading up before you start randomly editing things if you don;t know what you're doing | 02:12 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: if you're tired, then perhaps you need to take a break | 02:12 |
| w00t_ | I did, and it worked wonders for me | 02:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | or "all middleware is using same API, which is dbus" | 02:12 |
| lardman | w00t_: I'll add it to my list to do in June | 02:13 |
| Hydreee | lardman: well I know what i want to do and I'm following a guide that says I need to replace the entry “root=/dev/sdb2″ to say “root=/dev/sda2″. | 02:13 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/04/20/maemo_org_what_next | 02:13 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Indeed. But, like you, I *want* to see MeeGo succeed. I *want* to contribute more than applications. I'm *selfish* and want a good, hackable, usable, mainstream, Linux device in my pocket. | 02:14 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: calling openoffice.org a good corporate sponsored open source project is amusing considering it imploded this year precisely because it has never been one :-p | 02:15 |
| w00t_ | right | 02:15 |
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| w00t_ | I'm not saying to give up | 02:15 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: And it annoys me when the claimed USP of MeeGo is so blatantly untrue. MeeGo is open source; not open development. This is a battle I'm facing at work, I'd _like_ to be able to point to MeeGo and say 'this is how we should do it'; instead I find a closed source "our code is our IP and our IP is our life" company does open development (internally) better than an open project. | 02:15 |
| w00t_ | I'm just saying that if frustration is getting overwhelming, it's not healthy | 02:15 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: That article is 3 years old. Almost to the day. | 02:16 |
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| Jaffa | w00t_: Meh, I'm going to go to bed in a minute and I won't be worrying about MeeGo's failings except a) here, b) on the mailing lists, c) in person in SF | 02:16 |
| w00t_ | Jaffa: and, while some of those points are still of course problematic, some of them have seen improvement | 02:17 |
| w00t_ | meego (the project, not the vendor bastardisations) has no closed tracker, has no closed source (beyond hardware support blobs for e.g. the n900), and has an (admittedly somewhat dysfunctional, but at least present) architecture ML | 02:17 |
| w00t_ | (and, tooling like FIASCO images.. well, mic2 and friends..) | 02:18 |
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| Jaffa | Present but empty about from announcements (even, it seems, without impact analysis - not wanting to pick on auke but the tone of the mail was "you need to look to see if your project is affected") | 02:18 |
| Jaffa | s/about/apart/ | 02:19 |
| infobot | Jaffa meant: Present but empty apart from announcements (even, it seems, without impact analysis - not wanting to pick on auke but the tone of the mail was "you need to look to see if your project is affected") | 02:19 |
| * GeneralAntilles catches up on scrollback. | 02:19 | |
| w00t_ | i do think it's encouraging that @intel/@nokia have a strong presence on the MLs at all, especially considering the crapshoots that go on there at times | 02:20 |
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| w00t_ | could be improved, yes, but better than the past | 02:20 |
| w00t_ | the biggest hurdle is always going to be: why should I write this mail when I can go talk to $x in person | 02:21 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: "It's better than being shit" isn't a glowing endorsement :) | 02:21 |
| w00t_ | hahah | 02:21 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: Which then, as we discussed earlier, leads to miscommunication and distrust between the two companies. | 02:21 |
| Jaffa | w00t_: And "things not getting done" | 02:21 |
| * w00t_ notes he was #6 on sent mails in march, and is amazed | 02:21 | |
| w00t_ | I didn't think I was that spammy | 02:22 |
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| lardman | night all, /me has to work tomorrow | 02:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | o/ GeneralAntilles | 02:30 |
| * Jaffa has to, erm, entertain Jaffa Jr. when Mrs. Jaffa is watching the wedding. | 02:30 | |
| Jaffa | And do the MWKN hacking GeneralAntilles and Stskeeps were talking about earlier | 02:31 |
| thiago_home | the wedding doesn't start for another 7.5 hours | 02:31 |
| * GeneralAntilles chuckles at royalty. | 02:31 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, the hacking can wait until next week, eh? | 02:31 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Yeah, but it's a 4 day weekend (royalty useful for something), so I'm more likely to have time | 02:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah, I see. | 02:32 |
| Jaffa | thiago_home: Some sleep would be useful, given I've been feeling ill all day | 02:32 |
| thiago_home | yeah, sleep is good | 02:33 |
| thiago_home | going too | 02:33 |
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| tiagoprn | hello | 04:06 |
| tiagoprn | is there any release date for meego DE final on N900? | 04:06 |
| tiagoprn | I wanted to install the actual version, but everyone says even the betas are slow as hell... is that true? | 04:07 |
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| gabrbedd | tiagoprn: I'll bet it won't be before the MeeGo 1.2 release. (5/19) | 04:17 |
| * gabrbedd shoulda looked at the logs. :-p | 04:17 | |
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| timeless_w7ip | andre__: ping | 11:04 |
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| * achipa having wiki session problems (again) | 11:13 | |
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| lcuk | morning | 11:32 |
| lcuk | who is watching the wedding? | 11:32 |
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| arfoll | the wedding is today? | 11:32 |
| lcuk | in about 90minutes | 11:33 |
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| arfoll | wow i really should pay more attention to the world news... is there going to be anything exciting enough to watch? | 11:33 |
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| RST38h | Yes | 11:35 |
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| RST38h | There should be a few civilian casualties in Lybia, Siria, and some other countries. | 11:35 |
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| RST38h | Maybe a terrorist act or two. No large-scale disease epidemics though, and the Fukushima kinda gone quite lately. | 11:36 |
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| RST38h | Ah, almost forgot: THE WHITE IPHONE is being released! Fun! | 11:37 |
| arfoll | i meant at the wedding, I'm not that newsless ;-) | 11:37 |
| arfoll | of course I knew about the iphone, that's the one piece of news i can't go without | 11:38 |
| * RST38h knew it =) | 11:38 | |
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| toggles | arfoll: not worth watching, they said the chaser can't comment | 11:41 |
| lbt | lcuk: you're getting married? | 11:42 |
| lcuk | well if I am I would need to get dressed | 11:43 |
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| * lcuk just downloading todays n900-de | 11:44 | |
| lbt | I wonder if we should have torrents | 11:44 |
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| lcuk | acceptance is coming at 500 kB/sec for me from the server? | 11:46 |
| lcuk | http://repository.maemo.org/meego/n900-de/daily/1.1.99.4.20110427.5.DE.2011-04-29.1/images/mg-handset-armv7nhl-n900-de-acceptance/ | 11:46 |
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| arfoll | is there a way of getting someone's email from their obs name? | 11:51 |
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| X-Fade | arfoll: for admins, yes. But not for regular users. | 11:57 |
| arfoll | X-Fade, could you tell me who jhe34 is? | 11:58 |
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| X-Fade | arfoll: no account like that in meego.com or c.obs. | 12:00 |
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| arfoll | X-Fafe, he just made request #17249 | 12:00 |
| arfoll | on meego.com obs | 12:00 |
| X-Fade | arfoll: Don't have access to that. | 12:01 |
| arfoll | ah my bad, i thought you did | 12:01 |
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| amjad | are there any plans/idea to integrate libmobiledevice into meego ?? | 12:04 |
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| bkalinga | Hi, I am new to Meego OBS, and trying to figure out how to work with it | 12:11 |
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| bkalinga | i can see "Create new package based on existing package" under my Packages for project home:kalinga | 12:12 |
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| bkalinga | clicking on that asks me "Name of original project:" | 12:12 |
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| bkalinga | where can I see the list of projects name | 12:13 |
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| bkalinga | i am using https://build.pub.meego.com | 12:26 |
| bkalinga | in wiki it shows "Link Package" but for me it shows "Create new package based on existing package" | 12:28 |
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| X-Fade | lbt: What happened to pubworker01? | 12:32 |
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| lbt | *sigh* | 12:33 |
| bkalinga | Unable to find package 'libmeegotouch' in project 'MeeGo:1.1:Core:Handset'. | 12:34 |
| bkalinga | when i gave libmeegotouch as package name and MeeGo:1.1:Core:Handset project name | 12:34 |
| lbt | GPF | 12:34 |
| X-Fade | lbt: Ah nice stack trace in dmesg. | 12:34 |
| bkalinga | can someone please point me where can i see these info | 12:34 |
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| alterego | bkalinga: isn't mtf in core, not handset? | 12:36 |
| lbt | X-Fade: reboot? | 12:37 |
| bkalinga | how do see this info | 12:37 |
| bkalinga | altergo: could you please share the link, where i can see all project names and available packages inside it | 12:38 |
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| bkalinga | Also can someone explain the difference between MeeGo:1.0:Core and MeeGo:1.0:Core:Handset | 12:39 |
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| lcuk | bkalinga, give actual links to the obs repos you are specifying | 12:40 |
| lbt | bkalinga: did you look on the wiki? | 12:41 |
| bkalinga | yeah | 12:41 |
| lbt | was it there? | 12:41 |
| bkalinga | in wiki it talks about Link Package | 12:41 |
| lbt | would it have been helpful if it was there? | 12:41 |
| bkalinga | which is not showing in my case | 12:41 |
| lbt | where? | 12:42 |
| bkalinga | also in wiki its not clear..very difficult for first timer | 12:42 |
| lbt | where are you looking? | 12:42 |
| bkalinga | https://build.pub.meego.com/project/packages?project=home%3Akalinga | 12:43 |
| lbt | in the wiki... | 12:43 |
| bkalinga | http://wiki.meego.com/Build_Infrastructure/Packagers_Developers/WebUI_part_2 | 12:43 |
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| bkalinga | the example Meego:1.0:core and bash I tried which gave me error | 12:44 |
| bkalinga | in wiki the option is "Link Package" | 12:44 |
| bkalinga | but in My case its showing "Create new package based on existing package" | 12:45 |
| lbt | yep - that's for the core OBS - we need something for community | 12:45 |
| bkalinga | true, but it does not say where some one look for this available packages i.e. "bash" in the example | 12:46 |
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| bkalinga | what ever i enter there i am getting error | 12:46 |
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| lbt | bkalinga: I'm busy right now... what are you trying to do ... end goal, not "link a package" | 12:48 |
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| bkalinga | my goal is to learn OBS and use it compile examples inside libmeegotouch | 12:49 |
| bkalinga | lbt: you please carry on with your work | 12:49 |
| bkalinga | if provide me pointers latter | 12:49 |
| bkalinga | that would be really great | 12:49 |
| lbt | OK - linking packages is a bit advances | 12:50 |
| lbt | d | 12:50 |
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| lbt | I suggest you grab some tarball/spec examples and just build them for now | 12:50 |
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| bkalinga | yes that is what I am trying to do..but not getting where to start | 12:51 |
| lbt | it is possible - but you'd be doing inter-obs links | 12:51 |
| bkalinga | lets say i want to compile MTF code | 12:52 |
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| bkalinga | what to specify and where to specify that | 12:52 |
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| bkalinga | lcuk: as you mentioned, i can give actual links to the obs repos | 12:53 |
| lbt | OK ... create a tarball and a spec file. Upload them to your home project | 12:53 |
| lbt | that's it | 12:53 |
| lbt | you can grab a source rpm | 12:53 |
| lbt | and extract a "known good" tar/spec | 12:53 |
| lbt | or you can do a git export ... etc | 12:54 |
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| bkalinga | ok but there no option for uploading my local tar file.. | 12:55 |
| lbt | add a package... | 12:55 |
| bkalinga | it shows Name, Title and Desc | 12:56 |
| lbt | if you need help filling those in then I'd reconsider your career choice... ;) | 12:57 |
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| bkalinga | Ohhh...I got it now ...After I fill these info and save ..then I am able to see Add Files option there i can upload my source | 12:59 |
| bkalinga | thanks lbt, | 12:59 |
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| lbt | :) | 13:02 |
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| lcuk | oooh dd actually managed 1.1MB/s | 13:13 |
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| _|Nix|_ | Hi! Could someone please point me to the latest daily build of the meego ia32 tablet image? | 13:18 |
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| _|Nix|_ | Oh ... /repo/.meego.com | 13:18 |
| * _|Nix|_ facepalms | 13:18 | |
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| lcuk | _|Nix|_, which device are you testing it on? | 13:59 |
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| _|Nix|_ | lcuk: lenovo ideapad | 14:01 |
| lcuk | :D you want the pinetrail image afaik | 14:02 |
| * lcuk adores his ideapad | 14:02 | |
| _|Nix|_ | lcuk: I got it figured out meanwhile, now if only I could get my wireless and display driver working on my Dell Latitude E6420 :-S | 14:02 |
| _|Nix|_ | lcuk: I have iwlagn, but for some reason it doesn't work with this model ... I've seen others have this problem on forums, but I can't figure it out ... Guess I'll wait for a new kernel ... | 14:03 |
| lcuk | http://wiki.meego.com/Devices | 14:03 |
| lcuk | the dell latitude 2100 is included but not your model so far | 14:04 |
| lcuk | _|Nix|_, it may very well be the same solution as other devices in the list | 14:04 |
| lcuk | quite many devices are now documented with the workarounds and stuff | 14:04 |
| _|Nix|_ | lcuk: I'm trying to get Fedora to work with my Dell :) No joy there either. | 14:05 |
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| lcuk | _|Nix|_, what does work on it? | 14:07 |
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| * smoku 's wife adores his ideapad | 14:08 | |
| lcuk | smoku, what OS is running on it? | 14:09 |
| smoku | cordia of course :) | 14:09 |
| smoku | she's my pre-alpha tester :D | 14:09 |
| lcuk | children are good for that too | 14:10 |
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| smoku | don't have that yet ;-) | 14:11 |
| lcuk | smoku, then get off the computers and go snuggle up :P | 14:12 |
| * lcuk is sure something will emerge from it | 14:12 | |
| smoku | yeah... and what is going to pay to raise them if not these computers? :> | 14:13 |
| smoku | at Poland children are not the property of the whole society yet | 14:14 |
| smoku | ;-) | 14:14 |
| RST38h | smoku: should wait until there is a EU directive to this effect then! | 14:14 |
| smoku | i'm sure I don't have to wait long | 14:15 |
| lcuk | this dd imaging takes so long on this computer | 14:16 |
| alterego | Dialer is so much more responsive with prestart | 14:17 |
| alterego | Startup time is like 2 seconds | 14:17 |
| alterego | I blinked and it appeared :D | 14:17 |
| lcuk | :D | 14:17 |
| lcuk | alterego, is that integrated into daily testing? | 14:17 |
| alterego | No | 14:17 |
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| alterego | I managed to fix some issues I was having with prestart and the application launcher icon yesterday, as my battery went flat. | 14:18 |
| alterego | So I couldn't upload it to git, so now I'm tidying up my rather frantic attempts at fixing it to work out what combination of things I did made it work :D | 14:18 |
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| alterego | It's cool though, from power on I have the ability to receive calls, though with the current lack of ring tone .. | 14:19 |
| smoku | what is prestart? | 14:19 |
| alterego | I might hack a QML ring tone player for the time being. | 14:19 |
| lcuk | alterego, have you tried asking shane about how to do ringtones and stuff properly? | 14:21 |
| alterego | The problem is apparently N900 specific related to PA policies | 14:22 |
| lcuk | ahh | 14:23 |
| alterego | Not sure if it's in the top 10 | 14:24 |
| alterego | But it should be really .. | 14:24 |
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| tmpsantos | where can I find any docs about contextkit? | 14:26 |
| lcuk | alterego, do you know the bug number? | 14:26 |
| * tmpsantos can't find at apidocs.meeggo | 14:26 | |
| tmpsantos | meego* | 14:26 |
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| lcuk | tmpsantos, apidocs.meego.com exists: http://apidocs.meego.com/1.2-preview/ | 14:27 |
| alterego | I'm checking now | 14:27 |
| tmpsantos | lcuk: it was suppose to be there at Application Frameworks IMO | 14:28 |
| lcuk | tmpsantos, ? | 14:28 |
| tmpsantos | lcuk: /me looking for contextkit library API documentation | 14:29 |
| alterego | lcuk: there's this: bug 12103 | 14:29 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12103 enh, High, ---, gavin.hindman, NEW, [FEA] Incoming call indication | 14:29 |
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| alterego | So, how would I go about disabling the screen? | 14:32 |
| alterego | I know there aren't any Qt mobility APIs to do with actually blanking the screen, just preventing screen blanking. | 14:32 |
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| lcuk | hurrah N900-de booted | 14:35 |
| alterego | :) | 14:36 |
| alterego | Weird .. | 14:38 |
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| lcuk | and the tap to bring up the screen (and associated bug 16542 I filed) might need adjustment. since waiting for the screen to go dark then putting it in pocket brings up the screen again | 14:40 |
| lcuk | hmm | 14:40 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16542 nor, Undecided, ---, jesse.barnes, NEW, [N900] Tapping after Screen blank is actioning button | 14:40 |
| lcuk | so it might be the actual slider should be used and to not have taps rebrighten the screen | 14:40 |
| lcuk | hmm | 14:40 |
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| mizerydearia | I'm working with a friend on an Exopc tablet running Meego. He downloaded | 14:54 |
| lcuk | mizerydearia, pleased he finished download | 14:55 |
| lcuk | ing | 14:55 |
| * lcuk hopes you used fibre connection to download him | 14:56 | |
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| mizerydearia | I'm working with a friend on an Exopc tablet running Meego. He downloaded the MeeGo v1.1 SDK from https://meego.com/downloads/releases/1.1/meego-v1.1-sdk | 14:57 |
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| mizerydearia | That page does say supported distributions of Ubuntu and Fedora and not MeeGo. | 14:58 |
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| tmpsantos | mizerydearia: you can use a chroot'ed meego image instead of the SDK | 15:01 |
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| ali1234 | mizerydearia: you don't need the SDK if you are running meego, just install meego-development and meego-packaging | 15:06 |
| ali1234 | it's a lot easier than dealing with chroots and sdks that want to install broken packages all over your distro of choice | 15:07 |
| mizerydearia | ali1234: Ah, that's an interesting point. We've been trying to download and install the SDK even though we're already using MeeGo environment. | 15:09 |
| mizerydearia | How do we install meego-development and meego-packaging? Simply download and install them? | 15:09 |
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| mizerydearia | Does MeeGo support an IRC client? I didn't see any package manager to install apps such as irssi or xchat. | 15:10 |
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| thiago | mizerydearia: you didn't see the package manager? or you didn't see those apps in the package manager? | 15:11 |
| mizerydearia | I didn't see the package manager | 15:11 |
| ali1234 | mizerydearia: zypper in meego-development-tools meego-packaging-tools | 15:11 |
| jkyro | netbook 1.1 panics on boot on asus eeePC 1001px :( | 15:12 |
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| ali1234 | the meego package manager isn't exactly easy to find even on netbook | 15:12 |
| ali1234 | and iirc it doesn't really show packages and metapackages but a simplified "apps" view instead | 15:12 |
| sivang | hi all | 15:13 |
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| lcuk | morning sivang \o | 15:14 |
| sivang | hey lcuk | 15:14 |
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| sivang | I wish I could be in London today. | 15:15 |
| sivang | :) | 15:15 |
| lcuk | the wedding is spectacular | 15:16 |
| lcuk | so many people | 15:16 |
| sivang | that is what thought | 15:16 |
| lcuk | from all walks of life | 15:16 |
| sivang | *I | 15:16 |
| lcuk | and Pippa Middletons ass is still thebest thing on show :P | 15:16 |
| sivang | lcuk: took the words out of my mouth. | 15:17 |
| sivang | lcuk: let's go to -bar | 15:17 |
| toggles | lcuk: send a link | 15:17 |
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| sivang | guys, let'scontinue in -bar | 15:17 |
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| lcuk | Sage, awesome, the fixes for icon scaling will be in on Monday? | 15:30 |
| lcuk | bug 16430 | 15:30 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16430 nor, Medium, ---, fathi.boudra, WAIT, [REG]Application icons in quick launch bar downward offset. | 15:30 |
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| Sage | lcuk: for DE yes | 15:32 |
| Sage | for rest of the MeeGo if it is approved as release blocker | 15:32 |
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| thrall | Have you guys installed MeeGo on Nokia N900? Is it stable enough for using it as a daily phone? I don't mind a few glitches as long as it's usable. | 15:35 |
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| Myrtti | I really really really REALLY wish there were torrents of these bloody installation images | 15:37 |
| Sage | thrall: I would say no, there is too many bugs still that prevent daily usage. E.g., volume control is missing :) | 15:37 |
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| lcuk | Sage, there is a volume slider? | 15:40 |
| lcuk | I have not heard any audio to need it mind you | 15:40 |
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| Sage | lcuk: there is separate application yes, but that is not very handy. | 15:41 |
| Sage | the systemui volumecontrol is missing and not sure if the volumekeys are working either. | 15:42 |
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| thrall | I see. Have you had any problems with registering the sim card in the N900. Mine keeps refusing all operators except Telenor. I'm thinking it may be locked even though they say it's not... | 15:43 |
| thrall | Do you know of a way to check if it's locked to a specific operator? | 15:43 |
| lcuk | Sage, is there a bug to track about it and to try and figure out how we can get it resolved? | 15:44 |
| lcuk | or is it relating to the UX documentation also | 15:44 |
| lcuk | ie have to find correct place for the volume setting | 15:44 |
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| Sage | lcuk: I know there is it is on my browser atm :) | 15:45 |
| lcuk | (I personally adore the maemo control panel in that regard) | 15:45 |
| lcuk | Sage, :D | 15:45 |
| Sage | One reason could be that /var/run/pulse/dbus-socket isn't in the filesystem. And I have no idea if it should be there, if it has moved or something else. | 15:46 |
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| jkyro | is the live image installer using a different kernel than the actual installed system? | 15:53 |
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| jkyro | for me the installer and the live systems work but booting the installed system panics immediately | 15:54 |
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| deepa1 | hi do we have cabal for meego? | 16:18 |
| Stskeeps | cabal? | 16:18 |
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| deepa1 | Glasgow haskell compiler | 16:19 |
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| Stskeeps | ah.. | 16:19 |
| deepa1 | http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Cabal-Install#Installing_a_package | 16:19 |
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| Stskeeps | i don't think so | 16:19 |
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| _|Nix|_ | How can I find out which source package creates a given binary package? | 16:35 |
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| gabrbedd | _|Nix|_: rpm -q --info <packagename> | 16:36 |
| gabrbedd | _|Nix|_: ...I think that'll work. :-) | 16:36 |
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| _|Nix|_ | OK, so the source rpm's name is the same as the binary rpm's name. Yet zypper source-install <name> says no such package or something like that. | 16:39 |
| gabrbedd | _|Nix|_: Then you probably don't have your source repos enabled. | 16:40 |
| gabrbedd | _|Nix|_: `zypper repos` to see the status | 16:40 |
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| gabrbedd | _|Nix|_: and `zypper mr --enable <reponame>` to enable a disable repos | 16:40 |
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| _|Nix|_ | Right ... | 16:41 |
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| lcuk | oooh I hear music from the meego-de :D | 17:41 |
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| lcuk | the media player is a bit fiddly though | 17:41 |
| lcuk | and as sage pointed out, volume is hard to change | 17:42 |
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| lcuk | good afternoon fiferboy \o DawnFoster \o mece and amjad too :P | 17:48 |
| DawnFoster | hey lcuk | 17:49 |
| Mece | hello lcuk | 17:49 |
| * lcuk wadid you watch the wedding DawnFoster? | 17:49 | |
| lcuk | -/me wa | 17:49 |
| DawnFoster | lcuk: was there a wedding ;) | 17:50 |
| DawnFoster | no, I didn't watch it | 17:50 |
| lcuk | there are flags everywhere over here | 17:50 |
| thiago | did she run? | 17:50 |
| * lcuk has not heard any parties though | 17:50 | |
| thiago | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/28/operation_pumpkin/ | 17:50 |
| Mece | DawnFoster, well here's the short version: Harry didn't wear a hitler costume | 17:50 |
| lcuk | thiago, nahh in that dress it would be tricky | 17:51 |
| thiago | was anyone drunk? | 17:51 |
| thiago | the groom's father maybe? | 17:51 |
| Mece | lcuk, harry is the one with the hitler costume, right? | 17:52 |
| * thiago thinks everyone is now reading about Operation Pumpkin | 17:53 | |
| Stskeeps | indeed | 17:53 |
| gabrbedd | A headline discribed Kate's dress as 'A Triumph' | 17:53 |
| * gabrbedd snickers | 17:53 | |
| lcuk | Mece, idk | 17:53 |
| lcuk | the lads did look splendid | 17:53 |
| lcuk | some strange hats | 17:53 |
| lcuk | (on the ladies) | 17:53 |
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| * gabrbedd would describe the dress as "white" | 17:54 | |
| * Mece is having trouble opening the pumpkin thing because ham is hogging ol the cpu on his N900 | 17:55 | |
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| Mece | heard on the radio that over 2 billion people watched the wedding. | 17:56 |
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| Stskeeps | a lot of wasted work hours | 17:56 |
| thiago | or sleep | 17:56 |
| arfoll | football still alot more popular then | 17:57 |
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| GAN900 | Crazy anglophiles. | 17:57 |
| Mece | haha operation pumpkin indeed :D | 18:01 |
| gabrbedd | arfoll: Yeah, some of my friends thought all the attention was silly. I was thinking, "Eh, give 'em a break. They don't get the superbowl every year like we do" | 18:01 |
| gabrbedd | :-p | 18:01 |
| thiago | since this happens every 30 years or so, is the audience 30 times greater than the superbowl? | 18:01 |
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| arfoll | i'm just surprised why so much attention for a wedding when hes not even going to be king | 18:02 |
| Mece | isn't he? | 18:02 |
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| arfoll | Mece, no that would be the prince of wales | 18:03 |
| gabrbedd | operation pumpkin... hahahaha that's great. (Looks like an onion article, tho) | 18:03 |
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| gabrbedd | thiago: I dunno. Probably. | 18:04 |
| gabrbedd | :-) | 18:04 |
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| Mece | arfoll, but isn't this will fellow charles' eldest? | 18:04 |
| gabrbedd | Are there many outside the US who watch the superbowl? (Other than US expatriates) | 18:05 |
| arfoll | Mece, seen a picture of charles? | 18:05 |
| Mece | arfoll, yes...? | 18:05 |
| arfoll | gabrbedd, no one outside the US watches american football | 18:05 |
| Mece | gabrbedd, what arfoll said. | 18:05 |
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| arfoll | Mece, prince charles is quite a bit older | 18:07 |
| Mece | arfoll, hence it would surprise me if he outlived his son... | 18:07 |
| gabrbedd | arfoll: Mece: That's what I figured... but things are always as I figure. :-) | 18:08 |
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| arfoll | Mece, oh wow my understanding of the royal family just went out the window. ignore me | 18:08 |
| arfoll | i should give back my british passport | 18:09 |
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| Mece | gabrbedd, I actually have 2 friends who follow american football | 18:09 |
| Mece | arfoll, LOL | 18:09 |
| Mece | gabrbedd, 2 who are'nt american I mean | 18:09 |
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| fiferboy | GAN900: The Rays are really pouring it on, while the Orioles are fading already | 18:16 |
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| gabrbedd | fiferboy: Go Astros! | 18:21 |
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| gabrbedd | or.... lAstros... | 18:21 |
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| fiferboy | gabrbedd: I'm cheering for the Cardinals, so I can't wish the Astros well | 18:25 |
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| GAN900 | fiferboy, how about that Zobrist. :P | 18:28 |
| lcuk | helia_co just highlighted this on #meego-qa http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/QA-tools/TDriver/Getting_Started/Tutorial_for_test_creation | 18:28 |
| GAN900 | I was cracking up during the 1st game yesterday. | 18:28 |
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| lcuk | it is quite a nice overview of tdriver stuff | 18:29 |
| GAN900 | fiferboy, there's no way I could've envisioned this sort of hitting coming out of Spring training. | 18:30 |
| GAN900 | Especially with Longoria on the DL and Manny out. | 18:30 |
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| GAN900 | fiferboy, probably going to go when the Jays are in town next week. | 18:32 |
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| lcuk | with the music player on n900-de the screen layout is odd | 18:40 |
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| fiferboy | GAN900: Nah, the Jays can never get a good handle on the Rays | 18:44 |
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| GAN900 | fiferboy, to a game. | 18:47 |
| Venemo_N900 | good afternoon guys | 18:47 |
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| lcuk | \o Venemo_N900 | 18:47 |
| Venemo_N900 | o7 lcuk | 18:47 |
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| lcuk | in the de music player, the scroll list is less responsive than other apps | 18:56 |
| lcuk | and tiny too | 18:56 |
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| lcuk | the jazz coming out of the speakers is literally music to my ears though :D | 18:56 |
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| Pauleee | is it possible to watch netflix in meego? | 18:56 |
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| lcuk | Pauleee, IDK which system are you running? | 18:57 |
| Pauleee | the latest netbook version. | 18:57 |
| Pauleee | 1.1 | 18:57 |
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| lcuk | not sure tbh | 18:58 |
| lcuk | best is to try it and let us know? | 18:58 |
| Pauleee | hmm, i think netflix requires silverlight, but I don't know if silverlight can be installed in meego. | 18:58 |
| Pauleee | no prob | 18:58 |
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| TSCHAKeee | i have yet to see Netflix running on a Linux desktop | 18:59 |
| akk | Probably not. It doesn't work in Linux. | 18:59 |
| Venemo_N900 | Pauleee: try moonlight for silverlight | 18:59 |
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| TSCHAKeee | it took a miracle for Netflix to bless the Boxee box (and those guys are a bunch of cunts..oh shit, did I say that out loud?) | 18:59 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: No, you can't run Netflix in any Linux. | 18:59 |
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| gabrbedd | Pauleee: While Netflix is using silverlight for the bulk of the work, it still requires some ActiveX BS to actually run. | 19:00 |
| Venemo_N900 | well then, moonlight won't do any good there either | 19:00 |
| DawnFoster | TSCHAKeee: language :) | 19:00 |
| arfoll_ | doesnt netflix work on boxee box? | 19:00 |
| TSCHAKeee | arfoll_: again... | 19:01 |
| Pauleee | pity :( thanks for the info, gabrbedd. | 19:01 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: It's possible someone's come up with some kind of hack with wine and moonlight... but I've yet to hear of a success. | 19:01 |
| TSCHAKeee | arfoll_: Netflix and Boxee went round and round for months just to get it to run on the boxee box...just to ALLOW them to do so. | 19:01 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: I would politely complain to Netflix. | 19:01 |
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| arfoll_ | TSCHAKeee, yeah but i think on sodaville they have h/w accelerated silverlight | 19:01 |
| TSCHAKeee | Netflix does NOT want Linux support. | 19:01 |
| arfoll_ | not sure on the details | 19:01 |
| TSCHAKeee | meaning anything that isn't an appliance. | 19:02 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: You are their customer, after all. However, I've heard that they are hostile to Linux. | 19:02 |
| TSCHAKeee | hostile is an understatement | 19:02 |
| TSCHAKeee | they want protected media platforms only | 19:02 |
| TSCHAKeee | because they have made a lot of promises to content providers | 19:02 |
| arfoll_ | that's not necesarily their choice, they can get sued big by the content providers | 19:02 |
| TSCHAKeee | and are undercutting themselves financially like crazy | 19:02 |
| TSCHAKeee | just to pull it off. | 19:02 |
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| TSCHAKeee | Linux desktop users will never | 19:03 |
| TSCHAKeee | ever | 19:03 |
| TSCHAKeee | ever | 19:03 |
| TSCHAKeee | get premium content. | 19:03 |
| TSCHAKeee | ever. | 19:03 |
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| TSCHAKeee | some day you guys will actually realize that. | 19:03 |
| GAN900 | Some day the media giants will collapse under their own weight. | 19:04 |
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| TSCHAKeee | I know the types that run the content companies...and they are _SCARED_ of an operating system with an open media path. | 19:04 |
| arfoll_ | TSCHAKeee, bbc iplayer works fine on linux, so actually we allready have some protected content ;-) | 19:04 |
| TSCHAKeee | they have leveraged themselves to the hilt...to build a new business model based on the volatility of DRM, the fact that the tech will keep changing, and you will have to buy your media again and again | 19:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | THEY LIKE THIS ASPECT. | 19:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | and will fight tooth and nail for it | 19:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | because to them IT MEANS MORE MONEY. | 19:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | they will not give up. | 19:05 |
| * CosmoHill likes that you can fast forward the copy right stuff on VHS | 19:06 | |
| TSCHAKeee | these guys lied, cheated, stole their way to their jobs | 19:06 |
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| TSCHAKeee | and they want to keep their jobs. | 19:06 |
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| Venemo_N900 | TSCHAKeee ++ | 19:07 |
| TSCHAKeee | and anyone who thinks i'm stretching the truth...spend time in a room in a room with these guys. | 19:07 |
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| TSCHAKeee | and read them. | 19:07 |
| TSCHAKeee | "douche chills:" isn't a strong enough phrase to encapsulate the pretention in the room. | 19:08 |
| TSCHAKeee | they have no creative aspects themselves, but they want to own all of our creativity. | 19:08 |
| TSCHAKeee | </rant> | 19:09 |
| Stskeeps | indeed | 19:10 |
| Venemo_N900 | yeah TSCHAKeee, I think you are right | 19:10 |
| Pauleee | TSCHAKeee, but how do you really feel about content companies? lol :P | 19:11 |
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| lcuk | TSCHAKeee, put a pad and pen infront of anyone and they can be creative | 19:15 |
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| TSCHAKeee | lcuk: spend time in a movie script notes session. ;) | 19:16 |
| gabrbedd | Work with me here, people. WORK WITH ME. | 19:17 |
| Stskeeps | gabrbedd: what, you're hiring? | 19:18 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:18 |
| gabrbedd | Stskeeps: you never get my jokes. :-p | 19:18 |
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| lcuk | lbt, on the #meego-boss channel it shows activities | 19:49 |
| lcuk | but is there a page outlining what each is? | 19:49 |
| lbt | yep | 19:49 |
| lcuk | can a link be added to the /topic ? | 19:49 |
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| lbt | http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Infrastructure/BOSS/OBS_Event_List | 19:50 |
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| lcuk | thanks \o | 19:50 |
| lbt | http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Infrastructure/BOSS/Participants too | 19:50 |
| lbt | and http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/DeveloperEdition/BOSS | 19:51 |
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| rfvfr | how big memory card meego need? | 19:51 |
| lcuk | 4gb is the normal described | 19:52 |
| lcuk | try to get one with high class | 19:52 |
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| rfvfr | i try install meego once but that never work | 19:53 |
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| lcuk | rfvfr, I tend to install meego every day to check things out | 19:54 |
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| lcuk | general workflow: | 19:54 |
| lcuk | choose latest acceptance image from: http://repository.maemo.org/meego/n900-de/daily/ | 19:55 |
| lcuk | download the image itself mg-handset.....-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 | 19:55 |
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| lcuk | get the kernel too mg-handset.....-vmlinuz-2.6.37-12.3.DE-adaptation-n900 | 19:56 |
| lcuk | plug in n900 booted to maemo with mmc inserted | 19:56 |
| lcuk | select disk mode | 19:56 |
| lcuk | run fdisk -l | 19:56 |
| lcuk | and find out which /dev device is yours | 19:57 |
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| lcuk | (on my system it s /dev/sdc normally) | 19:57 |
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| lcuk | run "dd of=/dev/sdc if=IMAGE_YOU_JUST_DOWNLOADED" | 19:57 |
| lcuk | and wait for a bit | 19:58 |
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| lcuk | once completed, turn off n900 and remove battery | 19:58 |
| lcuk | (keep usb plugged in) | 19:58 |
| lcuk | run "sudo ./flasher-3.5 -l -b -k [kernel]" | 19:58 |
| lcuk | put battery in, let it flash, pop lid back on | 19:59 |
| lcuk | and you should have meego-de :) | 19:59 |
| rfvfr | have to try | 19:59 |
| * lcuk might have been simpler with just pointing to the wiki, but I use those steps normally | 19:59 | |
| TSCHAKeee | sigh, more vapourware LG prototypes | 20:00 |
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| Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee: afaik, according to the lg people that come around here, the ones they showed in their presentations aren't actually photoshops | 20:00 |
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| Stskeeps | they're real meego arm | 20:01 |
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| TSCHAKeee | i know they aren't... but this isn't the first time that LG has gone all the way to "trade show sample", with a Moblin or MeeGo device, only to say at the end, "uh..no." | 20:01 |
| TSCHAKeee | anyone remember the 990? | 20:02 |
| Stskeeps | research is always funny | 20:02 |
| TSCHAKeee | mhm | 20:02 |
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| TSCHAKeee | on the other hand, I can understand | 20:03 |
| rfvfr | is the any finnish meego user if i need help it easyer talk finnish | 20:03 |
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| TSCHAKeee | I am starting to actually understand that Moorestown and Medfield are at best interim iterations of a more refined low power solution from Intel still 4-5 years out. | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | mm, i wouldn't say 4-5 years | 20:04 |
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| TSCHAKeee | you think? | 20:05 |
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| TSCHAKeee | maybe 3.. but they are at least one more generation out. | 20:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | before they have something competitive with ARM. | 20:05 |
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| rfvfr | does meego work on this memory card Nokia MU-43, 8GB MicroSDHC? | 20:09 |
| lcuk | I think what matters more is the computer it is attached to | 20:09 |
| Stskeeps | should | 20:09 |
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| lcuk | damn, venemo is not here | 20:22 |
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| lcuk | I am booted into meego on my n900 | 20:22 |
| lcuk | and just trying to quickly follow venemos instructions | 20:23 |
| * npm just paired wiimote with meego netbook | 20:23 | |
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| lcuk | <lcuk> how would I get it on my meego device? | 20:23 |
| lcuk | <Venemo> lcuk, 'wget http://sources.venemo.net/puzzle-master-1.2.2-1.fc15.src.rpm' 'rpmbuild --rebuild puzzle-master-1.2.2-1.fc15.src.rpm' 'rpm -i puzzle-master-*.rpm' | 20:23 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> hah, and that would work happily on the n900 too? | 20:23 |
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| Pauleee | so if netflix only works with boxee, can i install boxee in meego? | 20:25 |
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| * npm wonders if qtmobility accelerometers have been interfaced via wiimote (watching the motion sensor gui in 'wmgui' move as a waggle wiimote) | 20:26 | |
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| * npm uses 'wminput', pairs wiimote, now it's my mouse :-) | 20:35 | |
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| MarcA-N | SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS: The MeeGo San Francisco conference planning committee is seeking to feature select quotes/phrases on conference signage. Please help us make this a community centric event! | 20:37 |
| MarcA-N | https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/T6P5C8H | 20:37 |
| npm | and the wii cursor keys work as remote control in xbmc ... this was too easy :-) | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | MarcA-N: hehe, nice | 20:38 |
| MarcA-N | ;) | 20:38 |
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| DawnFoster | my favorite question … If MeeGo was a super hero, it would be _______ [fill in the blank] | 20:43 |
| Stskeeps | i think we're bordering to something undead or zombie like, given how many times we've been declared dead | 20:44 |
| Stskeeps | Jesus? | 20:44 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:44 |
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| GAN900 | MarcA-N, isn't it supposed to be an industry event, though? | 20:45 |
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| MarcA-N | GAN900, we would like to feature thoughts/quotes/phrases from the community | 20:46 |
| GAN900 | "Where's the beef?" | 20:46 |
| MarcA-N | last event we featured quotes that were open source centric—keeping up with a similar vein we would like to see what might come from this simple questionnaire ;) | 20:47 |
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| Jaffa | "Openness is a 'flexible' concept" | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: ah, good one - i'll steal that for my presentation ;) | 20:48 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: :) | 20:49 |
| * Jaffa is trying to work out how to summarise last night's debate, either for MWKN or his blog. | 20:49 | |
| Stskeeps | i tried to read it with not enough caffeine in my blood, i should probably read it again | 20:50 |
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| Jaffa | Ooh, there should be some bullshit bingo cards for the keynotes :) | 20:51 |
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| Jaffa | MarcA-N: Nice concept, but is the superhero question pandering to the stereotype of the "community" being full of Comic Book Guy geeks? :-/ | 20:53 |
| MarcA-N | hah! I think it is just a reflection of my geeky self interest... | 20:53 |
| Jaffa | Worst. Stereotype. Ever. | 20:53 |
| Jaffa | :) | 20:53 |
| lcuk | jaffa, you mean you don't have a cape on now? | 20:53 |
| MarcA-N | hahah | 20:53 |
| MarcA-N | I know I do...err wait. | 20:54 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Do have my pants on the outside | 20:54 |
| lcuk | good good | 20:54 |
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| * lcuk was playing football with jake before | 20:54 | |
| lcuk | thankfully he was not wearing his superman costume today | 20:54 |
| DawnFoster | does this mean I can't wear my cape to the conference? | 20:54 |
| lcuk | DawnFoster, if it is anything like maemo a cape should be required dress code | 20:54 |
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| DawnFoster | maybe it's a portland thing - we even have super hero fried pies here: http://www.whiffies.com/ | 20:55 |
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| Jaffa | With top hat and cane. | 20:55 |
| lcuk | http://penguinbait.com/collectall6.jpg | 20:56 |
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| MarcA-N | mmm, fried pies | 20:56 |
| gabrbedd | So, along with Jaffa's idea... perhaps it would be "Plastic Man" | 20:56 |
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| gabrbedd | http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1016&bih=664&q=plastic+man&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq= | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: that one is a classic | 20:56 |
| Jaffa | gabrbedd: Mr Fantastic | 20:57 |
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| Jaffa | Maybe The Hulk: heart's in the right place, but tends to smash things up. | 20:57 |
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| MarcA-N | It may not be a superhero that even exists yet.... | 20:58 |
| Jaffa | Or the brainy one from The Watchmen: too clever for its own good | 20:58 |
| MarcA-N | I know I haven't revealed my superhero identity yet... | 20:58 |
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| Jaffa | MarcA-N: That would be appropriate | 20:58 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, x-men have a university and training academy for that sort of stuff | 20:58 |
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| gabrbedd | Who knows what lies in the UX of Intel?? | 20:59 |
| gabrbedd | THE PHANTOM KNOWS! | 20:59 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: MeeGo is one of the irritating mutant kids at Professor Xavier's School for the Gifted who thinks it's ready to go out and fight evil, but really isn't completely potty trained yet... | 20:59 |
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| gabrbedd | Jaffa: hahaha | 21:00 |
| Jaffa | ? | 21:00 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, but it is coming upto 1.2 | 21:02 |
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| lcuk | if what you say is right, shouldn't it be at 0.7 or something | 21:03 |
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| Stskeeps | at least they didn't end up on the YEAR.MM versioning | 21:03 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: You know version numbers... | 21:03 |
| lcuk | is there a potty training testcase btw? | 21:04 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: I think we're switching to pottyd for MeeGo 1.3 | 21:04 |
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| lcuk | jaffa when we get fuel cells in the future a page in the manual about potty training to ensure no spillage might actually be needed | 21:07 |
| Jaffa | Heh | 21:07 |
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| lcuk | am I right in thinking that creating mandelbrot set in QML would be a bit tricky | 21:13 |
| lcuk | or does QML have direct pixel access? | 21:13 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: *Lots* of Rectangle :-/ | 21:14 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: Presuambly building up a image and rendering that. | 21:15 |
| lcuk | so it would have to be a native Qt QWidget | 21:15 |
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| w00t_ | http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-labs/qmlcanvas | 21:15 |
| lcuk | ooh thank you w00t_ | 21:15 |
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| anidel | hi, is there a winner for the t-shirt contest? | 21:39 |
| lcuk | anidel, evening, not seen anything so far | 21:42 |
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| anidel | lcuk: hi.. ok.. may be today | 21:43 |
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| Jaffa | anidel: Maybe when you pick it up | 21:45 |
| anidel | pick up ? there in San Francisco? | 21:46 |
| anidel | :) | 21:46 |
| Jaffa | Yeah | 21:46 |
| anidel | sure | 21:46 |
| Jaffa | I didn't get one in Dublin | 21:46 |
| Jaffa | Or the brolly | 21:46 |
| anidel | ah right.. I did get it, but was ordered from fiancee not to bring it back home | 21:47 |
| anidel | (here design wasn't the one printed on it :D ) | 21:47 |
| anidel | her | 21:47 |
| anidel | btw can't download latest daily N900 DE, problems with repository.maemo.org ? | 21:48 |
| anidel | I can browse all the way to : /meego/n900-de/daily/latest/images | 21:49 |
| anidel | but the file I get is of 0 bytes.. I guess it's too short :) | 21:49 |
| Stskeeps | there's a problem with that symlink | 21:50 |
| Stskeeps | it's been noted and fixed when someone is around that can do it ;) | 21:50 |
| anidel | :) | 21:50 |
| anidel | ok I'll avoid the symlink | 21:50 |
| anidel | thanks | 21:51 |
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| Pauleee | Can someone help me? I've booted up MeeGo, started up the Terminal, typed in "su root" and my password, and now I want to change the /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf file to look for the correct device on boot. To do this, I want to replace the entry “root=/dev/sdb2″ to say “root=/dev/sda2″. What do I need to type to do this? | 22:11 |
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| thiago_home | huh? | 22:13 |
| thiago_home | you type what you want the file to be | 22:13 |
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| gabrbedd | Pauleee: vi ?? | 22:15 |
| jespada | Pauleee, just replace append ro root=/dev/sdb2 for append ro root=/dev/sda2 | 22:15 |
| gabrbedd | nano if it's installed | 22:15 |
| jespada | oh... Pauleee you need a text editor... like vi or nano as gabrbedd pointed to you | 22:17 |
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| Pauleee | gabrbedd: how do i access vi? i don't see it under system tools or accessories... | 22:27 |
| * CosmoHill wonders how long Pauleee has been using linux | 22:29 | |
| Pauleee | 3 days! :) | 22:29 |
| CosmoHill | congrats | 22:29 |
| Pauleee | can ya tell? :P hah | 22:29 |
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| * CosmoHill gets the baby spoon so he can feed Pauleee instructions so he grows up to be a big strong boy | 22:29 | |
| Pauleee | is vi a text editor program like notepad in Windows? | 22:30 |
| Myrtti | not exactly | 22:30 |
| CosmoHill | it's like notepad if notepad was used under command prompt | 22:30 |
| berndhs | vi is a text editor, but its not a lot like notepad | 22:30 |
| Myrtti | it's the most unlogical text editor in the world | 22:30 |
| Myrtti | this is a subject to religious-like debate | 22:30 |
| CosmoHill | Myrtti: "ed" and "joe" | 22:30 |
| Pauleee | is nano the same way command prompt based? | 22:30 |
| CosmoHill | yes, nano would probably be easier for you | 22:31 |
| Myrtti | yup, but it is actually helpful to newbies | 22:31 |
| berndhs | gedit is good too | 22:31 |
| CosmoHill | Vi tends to trap newbies | 22:31 |
| Pauleee | is gedit available otb in meego? | 22:31 |
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| lcuk | on netbook it is | 22:31 |
| lcuk | afaik | 22:32 |
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| CosmoHill | NSFW: http://black-flag.co.uk/files/emacs_comic.jpg | 22:35 |
| CosmoHill | or children for that matter | 22:36 |
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| gabrbedd | Pauleee: $ nano /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf | 22:36 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: if that fails, you'll have to learn vi ($ vi /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf) | 22:36 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: or get really creative with sed. | 22:37 |
| CosmoHill | or give Ed and Joe a go | 22:37 |
| lcuk | install ssh, use winscp and notepad. | 22:37 |
| * CosmoHill has no idea why he installs Ed on his distro | 22:37 | |
| Pauleee | i'm using the netbook version 1.1 trying to find the gedit program... where is it? | 22:38 |
| berndhs | or use cat and type real careful, so you get it right the first time:) | 22:38 |
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| berndhs | sudo zypper install gedit | 22:38 |
| CosmoHill | you know the G in Gedit stands for Gnome which is not used in MeeGo | 22:38 |
| lcuk | isn't gedit the normal netbook editor? | 22:39 |
| * lcuk books it to see | 22:39 | |
| CosmoHill | there must be some kinda GUI text editor in meego | 22:39 |
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| lcuk | echo and redirection | 22:39 |
| thiago_home | meego doesn't use gnome, but meego does use some gnome apps | 22:39 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: lcuk: AFAIK gedit is on 1.1 | 22:40 |
| CosmoHill | http://xkcd.com/378/ | 22:40 |
| lcuk | yeah thought so | 22:40 |
| gabrbedd | # gedit /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf | 22:40 |
| boss | gabrbedd: Error: "gedit" is not a valid command. | 22:40 |
| gabrbedd | That is to say, gedit is on 1.1 netbook. | 22:40 |
| gabrbedd | boss: who asked you? | 22:41 |
| boss | gabrbedd: Error: "who" is not a valid command. | 22:41 |
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| CosmoHill | vi /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf | 22:41 |
| gabrbedd | Bad robot! | 22:41 |
| CosmoHill | %s/sdb2/sda2/ | 22:41 |
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| CosmoHill | :wq | 22:41 |
| lcuk | ancient runes! | 22:41 |
| CosmoHill | jophish_: Lion's Head right? | 22:42 |
| * lcuk still sees the command line as mystical place and mentally puts on a wizards hat when trying anything | 22:42 | |
| gabrbedd | # sed -i 's/sdb2/sda2/' /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf | 22:44 |
| boss | gabrbedd: Error: "sed" is not a valid command. | 22:44 |
| gabrbedd | buyer beware, though. | 22:44 |
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| CosmoHill | Pauleee == boss ? | 22:44 |
| thiago_home | no | 22:44 |
| berndhs | all this for changing 1 byte | 22:44 |
| Pauleee | i'm no boss. yes, this is way too complicated for changin g1 byte of informatin! haha | 22:46 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: Yeah, these command line incantations aren't sexy... but they get a lot more mileage than any of the GUI tools on any OS. Esp. when things aren't working right. | 22:46 |
| * CosmoHill lives in the command line | 22:46 | |
| gabrbedd | CosmoHill: I think boss is lbt's pet robot | 22:46 |
| CosmoHill | s/robot/gimp/ | 22:46 |
| thiago_home | s/gimp/boss/ | 22:47 |
| CosmoHill | (everyone's faviour photo editor) | 22:47 |
| Pauleee | gabrbedd: so if i type "# sed -i 's/sdb2/sda2/' /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf" in the terminal it will replace the entry “root=/dev/sdb2″ to say “root=/dev/sda2″? | 22:47 |
| CosmoHill | wait have I just insulted someone's boss? | 22:47 |
| CosmoHill | Pauleee: search/find/replace/ | 22:48 |
| CosmoHill | you don't actually type the # part | 22:48 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: yes. But you gotta be a little careful that it also doesnt change vmlinux-sdandup-foo to vmlinux-sdbndup-foo | 22:49 |
| thiago_home | CosmoHill: no, it's a bot | 22:49 |
| gabrbedd | :-) | 22:49 |
| CosmoHill | thiago_home: oh good | 22:49 |
| gabrbedd | Right, the '#' part just means "the prompt you have when you are root" | 22:49 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: much safer to use nano, though. | 22:50 |
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| Pauleee | gabrbedd: well this is only half of the solution to my problem, I also have to open /etc/fstab and edit all entries that read “sdbN” to be “sdaN.” | 22:50 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: what does "which nano" give you? | 22:50 |
| gabrbedd | Or "which gedit" ?? | 22:50 |
| Pauleee | gabrbedd: I'm using MeeGo Netbook v1.1 ... it doesn't come with gedit. :( | 22:51 |
| Pauleee | i'm not even sure it comes with nano... | 22:51 |
| lbt | yep boss is mine | 22:51 |
| gabrbedd | So... what does "which gedit" and "which nano" give you? (Because I'm 99.9% sure that Netbook v1.1 has gedit) | 22:52 |
| Pauleee | [14:38] <CosmoHill> you know the G in Gedit stands for Gnome which is not used in MeeGo | 22:53 |
| Pauleee | is that correct? | 22:53 |
| berndhs | yes and no | 22:53 |
| berndhs | gedit is in meego netbook | 22:53 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: I've just confirmed that gedit /is/ in netbook. | 22:53 |
| Pauleee | I just want to be able to search and replace text in these two documents... will gedit allow me to do that? | 22:54 |
| * CosmoHill pets boss | 22:54 | |
| * CosmoHill has just remembered that MeeGo doesn't include vim by default | 22:55 | |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: Open up a terminal (it's in the bottom group... System, I think) | 22:55 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: And type this: | 22:55 |
| CosmoHill | can't he use the same sed for the new file? | 22:55 |
| gabrbedd | sudo gedit /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf | 22:55 |
| Pauleee | ok | 22:56 |
| gabrbedd | I think you can figure it out from there. | 22:56 |
| Pauleee | oh my god, you saved me from a premature death! thank you gabrbedd. | 22:57 |
| Pauleee | now this is something I can work with! | 22:57 |
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| CosmoHill | yay | 22:58 |
| gabrbedd | Pauleee: you're welcome. :-) | 22:59 |
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| serio___ | i am looking for help on this tablet with the meego | 23:51 |
| serio___ | i got this tablet from intel yesterday and some say that it has windows 7 on it | 23:52 |
| serio___ | but i cant find it at boot | 23:53 |
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| gabrbedd | Serio__: To get the boot menu, you have to press [Tab] at the Right Time after the BIOS stuff. Your window of opportunity is very small (like .1 sec). | 23:55 |
| gabrbedd | Serio__: If it doesn't appear there... then W7 isn't on your device. | 23:55 |
| toninikkanen | exopc? you have to tap the "BSS" icon that appears briefly on startup | 23:55 |
| toninikkanen | then you can select what device to boot from | 23:55 |
| akk | I don't think they have windows loaded ... at least mine doesn't seem to. | 23:56 |
| akk | The whole point they were giving them away was to get us to write MeeGo apps. :) | 23:56 |
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| akk | s/point/reason | 23:57 |
| serio____ | im looking for some developement help with the meego tablet tha | 23:58 |
| * lcuk ponders how to get some games onto n900-de | 23:58 | |
| lcuk | jake just picked it up and went looking for them | 23:58 |
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| Stskeeps | lcuk: samegame sounds like a good candidate | 23:58 |
| serio____ | Intel gave out free tabs yesterday they say windows7 is on it i dont care for windows but ido want to see if it is on there but i have a prob at boot | 23:59 |
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