IRC log of #meego for Thursday, 2011-03-31

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w00t_rustylynch: any progress?00:13
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rustylynchw00t_: i'm merging now.... the other orientation issue has to be the mobility bug you pointed me to since i also see it from meego-ux-daemon00:21
w00t_rustylynch: ok00:21
w00t_do you know what mobility sensors plugin your target hardware uses?00:21
w00t_is it the 'meego' one in upstream Mobility?00:21
w00t_I'm working on fixing that bug now, so, if so I'll bump you when it's patched00:21
rustylynchactually... right now, on exopc, we are still using the orientation-contextkit-sensor i created till qtsensors works correctly with pegetron00:23
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* w00t_ looks00:23
w00t_hmm.00:23
rustylynchhello world sensor that reads from contextkit00:23
w00t_okay00:24
rustylynchsense sensorfw also publishes contextkit values for orientation00:24
w00t_yes, it has the same problem00:24
w00t_it needs to call updateSensor in the constructor, before setReading, I think00:24
rustylynchthat's what i suspected00:24
w00t_(that's what I'm trying to test now, made a bit difficult by my patched mobility crashing..00:24
rustylyncheasy fix00:24
w00t_)00:25
rustylynchi suspected i needed to trigger it from a timer, where i start the timer in start()00:25
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w00t_shouldn't be needed afaik00:26
w00t_contextkit should be populated instantly00:26
w00t_hmmm00:26
w00t_I think I will steal your hello world sensor to test the fix, for now, it saves me trying to figure out wtf is wrong with this package00:27
w00t_:P00:27
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rustylynchit is... wasn't sure if it was safe to publish QSensor00:27
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w00t_rustylynch: ok, i found out something interesting :P00:46
w00t_rustylynch: I (for now) removed libqtsensors_meego, so presumably libqtsensors_orientation is the plugin doing the work, and (with no modifications) I get correct orientation - i.e. no off-by-90° problem00:47
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w00t_so you may want to make sure that exo's contextkit stuff is populating Screen.TopEdge properly00:47
w00t_I think I'm going to create a simple test app that can be used to test if a Mobility plugin is returning sane values00:48
w00t_this is all insane :P00:48
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rustylynchw00t_: oh.. yea, we nuke the libqtsensors_meego in a ks file00:54
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rustylynchsince this was just a temporary measure, till sensorfw is fixed00:54
rustylynchand the pegatron sensorfw config file needs to have an offset=100:54
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w00t_rustylynch: do you happen to know what MeeGo package provides QtSensors headers?00:55
* w00t_ is having some trouble finding it00:56
rustylynchyea, let me look00:56
w00t_much appreciated00:56
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rustylynchqt-mobility-devel, i think00:56
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rustylynchyea, that's it00:57
rustylynchzypper install 'pkgconfig(QtSensors)'00:57
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w00t_wow00:57
w00t_that works? :P00:57
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wolfmurphyI have a noob question I haven't been able to track down. How do I get gcc on Meego?  ADVthanksANCE01:32
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berndhswolfmurphy: zypper install gcc01:36
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wolfmurphyDrrrrr. Thanks. I haven't used zipper. Many thanks01:36
rustylynchyou most likely need a bunch of other stuff01:37
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wolfmurphyDoes zypper do dependency analysis to report what is missing?01:38
rustylynchyes, it will automatically resolve deps01:39
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aukerun `zypper pt`01:39
aukethen zypper install -t pattern `pattern-name` to get whole groups installed at once01:39
aukethere are whole groups for development tools etc.01:40
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wolfmurphyCool, thanks. What recommendations for other relevant developer SW? I was looking for place to browse possibilities01:40
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rustylynchwhat i meant by my other comment, is you are going to need a bunch of other basic stuff (beyond gcc and it's direct deps) to have anything useful.  I know there is a zypper equiv of "group", but i don't recall what it is01:46
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w00t_rustylynch: i'm not totally convinced about the stuff to stop listening to orientation changes, btw01:50
w00t_from what i'm seeing, it doesn't provide for a very nice user experience when rotating orientation and switching apps after01:50
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w00t_why was that done?01:50
rustylynchi stopped rotating apps in the background since having all the apps do rotations (when you start a bunch of apps) was sucking up a lot of resources01:51
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w00t_right01:51
w00t_i thought that might be why01:51
w00t_my approach would be to stagger the rotations01:52
rustylynchand if apps never stop listening to orientation changes, then our device never falls into a deep sleep state01:52
wolfmurphyThanks rustylynch (and auke and berndhs). I got to head out to teach (being a teacher helps explain my ignorance). I am getting mismatch on checksums, I'll try from home later. I will feel better when I get vi and gcc.01:52
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w00t_hmm.. surely that's a bad implementation of the orientation code rather than anything else01:52
rustylynchi do agree that seeing the app rotate when you switch to it is also wrong01:52
w00t_ok01:53
rustylynchw00t_: which thing, sleeping or background orienation changes?01:53
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w00t_i'm open to other ideas about what we might do there, i've admittedly not decided on a solution i like01:53
w00t_sleeping01:53
w00t_sounds like mobility (or something under it) is doing something wrong if it's constantly having to poll01:53
rustylynchfor sleeping it's simple.... you have to poll since that's how the device works.  the sensorfw has no idea if this should be allowed or not01:54
w00t_huh01:54
rustylynchso... if you have an active sensor, then you keep getting data01:54
rustylynchwhich means you never sleep01:54
w00t_ok, i guess i can understand sensorfw waking up01:54
rustylynchor at least, you never fall into the special, deep sleep that mrtn implements01:54
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rustylynchi considered having meego-ux-daemon do a brute force call to sensorfw to cut off all orientation updates when we lock the screen, but that means a class of apps are not possible that need to listen to orientation changes in the background01:56
* w00t_ thinks01:57
w00t_there is an alternative01:57
w00t_is LauncherApp public API01:57
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w00t_?01:57
rustylynchif the re-layout was faster (so the user didn't notice it), then this wouldn't be an issue01:57
w00t_that's true01:58
w00t_ideally, we need to tell the app we're about to show it01:58
rustylynchi know the new meego-ux-components has a much better implementation for this, but i haven't verified if it's good enough to hide the relayout01:58
w00t_ooh01:58
w00t_is this in git?01:58
rustylynchyea, we need an about-to-show signal01:58
w00t_I can probably poke it01:58
rustylynchyes, there is a meego-ux-components project01:58
rustylynchthis is what we actually want to use, and are in process of migrating stuff out of meegolabs-ux-compnoents01:59
rustylynchmeegolabs-ux-components (imported as MeeGo.Labs.Components) is what we started with, before qt-components was far enough along to build off01:59
rustylynchi'm being told by the maintainers that they are ready to start doing a massive porting of the apps02:00
w00t_okay, and what's meego-ux-components then? an implementation of the Qt Components APIs?02:00
rustylynchit builds on top of it02:00
w00t_cool02:00
* w00t_ is happy to hear this, was a bit concerned that there wasn't going to be sharing :)02:01
rustylynchand in some cases positions the code in a way that we think will be possible to leverage each other after a few mods are made to qt-components02:01
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w00t_*nod*02:03
rustylynchbtw... i made a local change to orientation-contextkit-sensor to publish a sensor value after start().... but this doesn't fix the odd behavior of nobody gets orientation values till the sensor spits at least one value out02:03
w00t_rustylynch: that's the odd thing02:03
rustylynchand i'm getting the write value from contextkit02:03
w00t_using orientation-contextkit-sensor on the n900 actually works...02:03
w00t_and I get correct orientations and stuff02:03
w00t_what exactly is going wrong for you?02:03
rustylynchif i boot with the device positioned in anything other then TopUP, and i dont move the device, then all apps startup and stay in TopUp02:04
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rustylynchonce i move the device to another orientation, then everything works as expected02:05
rustylyncheven when i start or restart apps02:05
rustylynchand since my device normally sit in a dock in portrait mode, then it's real obvious02:06
w00t_wtf :)02:06
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w00t_so why does it work on n900, hmm..02:06
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rustylynchthis is really odd... i might be doing somthing stupid02:07
w00t_I can give you the .ks I'm using if that would help02:08
rustylynchwhich is the normal case when i find the laws of physics seem to no longer work02:08
rustylynchi'm fine02:08
w00t_k02:08
* w00t_ will ponder that a bit and see if he can think anything up02:09
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w00t_rustylynch: do you think if a 'close' button was added to components, it would get merged?02:14
w00t_for touchscreen-only devices, it'd be pretty useful02:14
rustylynchadded where?02:16
w00t_visually? on the titlebar of the app02:17
w00t_not sure where that is in code yet, just musing out loud on something that annoys me a bit02:17
rustylynchit would have to be done in such a way that it can be turned on or off02:17
rustylynchlike a property of Window02:17
w00t_of course02:18
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rustylynchor... perhaps better, controlled via a theme02:18
w00t_that might be a more sensible idea even :)02:18
rustylynchso app developers don't need to worry about this02:18
w00t_also means less patching :P02:19
rustylynchand showing it in an app on a device that doesn't need it makes the app look like it somehow doesn't really fit02:19
w00t_*nod*02:19
w00t_it's good that you're open to the idea generally though02:19
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rustylynchoh shoot... sure enough, sensorfw is fibbing about the initial orientation.  I thought i proved it wasn't but again, my wet ware was still programmed to thing of top as landscape02:38
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w00t_rustylynch: is there a reason for seperating libmeegoqmllauncher from the meego-qml-launcher binary?03:06
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rustylynchyes03:08
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rustylynchthe browser isn't a normal qml app03:08
rustylynchbut needed to share the classes03:08
rustylynchi also plan on making meego-ux-daemon subclass the same classes (instead of duplicating the effort making it harder to fix bugs), but haven't yet03:09
w00t_ok; i did notice that03:10
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w00t_(will meego-browser be released sometime?)03:10
vgradew00t_, its on git today03:10
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rustylynchits also in Trunk03:11
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rustylynchmeego-app-browser03:11
w00t_!03:11
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* w00t_ did not know this03:11
rustylynchit didn't make it on Friday because of a couple of last minute permissions, but there now03:11
w00t_great news03:11
vgradesorry not git, just obs03:11
w00t_well, if it's on obs, git will (hopefully) soon follow03:12
rustylynchi'm discussing setting up a public git tree with the developers03:12
w00t_rustylynch: excellent :)03:12
rustylynchjust have a time lag since they all work out of PRC03:12
* w00t_ wonders what performance on the n900 is like03:13
rustylynchi don't think i want to know :-<03:13
w00t_hahaha03:13
w00t_well... we have a long way to go03:13
rustylynchit's a patched chromium03:13
w00t_ok, an even longer way to go03:14
rustylynchor chrome (never remember which is the correct name)03:14
w00t_i was thinking it would be QtWebkit or something like OrangeMobileBrowser and co03:14
specialchrome is polished by google, chromium is the raw elements :p03:14
w00t_OrangeMobileBrowser is supposedly quite good on n90003:14
w00t_starts in 5 seconds or so, quite fast, etc03:14
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rustylynchyea, but then in a week i will forget since the name is rather arbitrary to my brain03:15
rustylynchthere is also an opera based browser that was just published03:15
rustylynchnot sure by who, but somebody walked by with a demo on the tablet image03:15
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w00t_oh, neat-o03:15
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rustylynchseemed pretty nice, but didn't spend a lot of time on it03:16
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gabrbeddw00t_: using --pkgmgr=yum I was able to build the Tablet image. :-)03:42
gabrbeddOf course, now that meegotouch finally has the non-mtf decorators working... I hate to abandon them...03:43
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TSCHAKeeeany news on the release of the code for the Tablet UX ?03:57
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ali1234TSCHAKeee: i heard it's gonna be "real soon now"04:11
TSCHAKeeeheard that....3 weeks ago... ;)04:11
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ali1234i heard some new news about... 1 week ago04:12
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TSCHAKeee;)04:12
rustylynchits out04:13
ali1234maybe that's what i heard a week ago...04:13
ali1234can't really remember :)04:13
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bef0rdthere is tablet ux for n90004:15
berndhsthere are tablet images in 1.1.99 from yesterday, dont know about the source for that04:16
rustylynchbuilt off trunk, like all the other images04:16
rustylynchand  host of git repos on gitorious @ http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux04:17
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ali1234http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux/meego-ux-panels04:18
ali1234that's the part most are probably interested in04:18
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rustylynchanyone from the meego release team awake?05:34
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rustylynchor anyone that knows the difference between the repo.* and download.* meego urls... specifically, which is the correct server to point to a tablet image in an announcement email05:35
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gabrbeddrustylynch: repo.meego.com is preferred, and holds the weekly builds.05:40
gabrbeddrustylynch: download.meego.com holds the daily builds... and probably not appropriate for an announcement.05:41
gabrbeddrustylynch: For example... you can't "browse" DMC... thus it seems it's use is for hard core folks like us.05:41
rustylynchthanks05:42
gabrbeddrustylynch: Full disclosure -- This is just my understanding.... I'm not an official member of the release team.05:42
rustylynchok05:43
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gabrbedderm... i'm not even an un-official member.  :-)05:43
gabrbeddjust make sure your announcements are sure to indicate that this is a development build.  I would call it "alpha"05:44
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Robot101mnementh: how does the contacts app do "actions" at the moment? like triggering a call, IM, e-mail, etc?05:49
Robot101mnementh: is it in QContactsTracker or do you do it at the UI layer calling out to other meego-* apps?05:49
Robot101mnementh: I was wondering if it was something you'd like to see in libfolks05:50
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pixelgeekgabrbedd:  It's still listed as Tablet Developer Preview, and described as pre-alpha06:20
iekkumorning06:20
gabrbeddpixelgeek: We're talking about this http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.99.0.20110329.5/images/06:21
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timeless_w7ipping09:10
timeless_w7ipanyone here on OS X try to use mxr recently?09:10
timeless_w7ipsomeone did a free text search for 'g++' but without a tree09:10
timeless_w7ipwhich doesn't lead to anywhere useful09:10
timeless_w7ipaha!09:11
* timeless_w7ip finds the bad link09:11
* timeless_w7ip thanks culprit09:11
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timeless_w7ipfixed and pushed upstream w/ a bundle of other things which we've been staging09:21
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siddharthsi am going to buy idea pad for meego development does any one know place from where i can get discount09:39
siddharths:/09:39
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bkalingawhere can i upload the screen shots to.. if i need to share that in this IRC09:59
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bkalingasimilar to pastebin...10:00
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andre__bkalinga, imagebin10:05
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bkalingathanks andre_10:08
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bkalingaandre__:do you know any script to upload image to this imagebin site and give the uploaded image link; the way pastebinit works10:17
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lcukbkalinga, sometimes just copy/paste the link is enough10:18
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bkalingayes, luck.10:22
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Stskeepsmorn pohly :)10:32
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pohlyStskeeps: morning10:36
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lcuk<Stskeeps> REMINDER: Nokia N900 DE Common Software (including hardware adaptation) meeting in #meego-meeting now11:03
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lcuk\o MeeGoExperts wazd dneary13:12
dnearyhi lcuk13:12
MeeGoExpertsHi Everyone + lcuk :-)13:12
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MeeGoExpertsIn fact, hi dneary13:13
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bkalingameego-handset-ia32-qemu-1.1.99.0.20110329.5-runtime   showing entire black screen and not moving  further...13:13
bkalingais this a know issue13:14
bkalinga*known13:14
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lcukbkalinga, /o\ oh cripes that does not sound great.  especially since previous weeks qemu sdk images booted and got past there13:16
lcuk\o timeless_w7ip :P I was greeting people who I noticed entering on the page I saw13:17
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lcukthis is true indeed: RT @mece66 @lcuk Me too, and I really like how fast things seem to be moving right now too! @jukkaeklund #meego #n900de13:20
bkalingalcuk: qemu-1.1.99.0.20110329.5-runtime i waited for 10minutes and its not moving from the initial black screen..where as qemu-1.1.90.3.20110215.10 showing Homescreen within a minute13:20
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lcukhmm13:24
lcukhow do I search bugzille for something numeric (20110329) without it trying to think it is a bug number?13:24
lcuknm13:24
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dnearyhi MeeGoExperts13:27
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bkalingaluck: Try  https://bugs.meego.com/query.cgi13:30
bkalingafor 20110329 there is no entry.. i searched13:31
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lcukbkalinga, is it showing x11 cursor13:33
lcukie bug 985013:33
_MeeeGoBot_Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9850 nor, Undecided, 1.2, zhiyuan.lv, NEED, QEMU boots to X but no desktop UI appears13:33
lcukalthough I do not see how older qemu builds work (as we know, you have been in the UI of earlier builds13:34
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lcukbkalinga, there are a few qemu related bugs https://bugs.meego.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=qemu+black13:42
bkalingaok13:43
lcukbut mostly old hence oddity with this13:43
lcukpondering if it is a regression, certainly feels that way to me13:43
lcukJaffa, btw not sure you @mwkn this, but active open development of the dialer project is expanding even more: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-March/482339.html13:44
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Termanamorning14:51
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wathekHi all15:12
wathekI wanted to know when does Qt call the void QGestureRecognizer::reset(QGesture *) function ?15:13
wathekIs it when the QGesture change its status to Cancel, Finished or whatever ?15:13
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Jaffare15:18
Jaffalcuk: I did indeed catch that, thanks15:18
lcuk\o15:19
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villevtoo bad intel's components depend on various mtf libs15:23
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Stskeepslike which?15:24
StskeepsMIM?15:24
villevI mean the qt components stuff15:24
Stskeepswhat libs does it rely on?15:25
villevthey are linking to meegotouch libs directly, and using at least MGconfItem (trivial wrapper)15:25
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Stskeepsvillev: MGConfItem is in Mlite instead15:25
villevand contextkit which is not really in mtf but part of the mtf "family"15:25
villevlet's see what else they use15:25
Stskeeps(mlite is useful stuff from mtf)15:25
Stskeepscontextkit is used in most qt apps too in meego, kinda essential for proper running15:26
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w00t_villev: no15:30
w00t_they aren't using mtf, they use mlite15:30
w00t_admittedly, the distinction isn't that big - they both have 'm' in the name.. :)15:30
villevw00t_: but they have CONFIG += meegotouch in the src.pro15:31
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w00t_villev: which package is this?15:31
villevmeego-ex-components from git15:31
villevStskeeps: intel components are using it for status bar indicators15:33
villevcontextkit that is15:33
w00t_villev: I suspect that may be leftover15:34
w00t_the packaging doesn't refer to meegotouch, and having unused/invalid stuff in CONFIG won't cause errors15:34
villevw00t_: right, so it's probably just cruft15:35
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villevI wonder, perhaps the status bar stuff shouldn't be in these components anyway15:37
villevMDeclarativeStatusBar is in public code15:37
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w00t_yeah, early days, i think15:39
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villevalso the stuff in 'models' seem to be out of place in qt components15:48
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w00t_villev: fwiw, they're very receptive to patches15:50
w00t_so if you find itches that annoy you, go wild15:50
Stskeepsthe idea was to be 'api' compatible with qt components, right?15:50
villevhint taken. esp. stuff that makes it easier to build would be good candidates...15:51
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w00t_Stskeeps: that's the mid-long term plan yes15:51
w00t_as I understand it15:51
w00t_villev: i'm just trying to increase the hands on it.. many hands, light work ;)15:53
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villevgot it w00t_15:54
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berndhsmorning16:47
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gabrbeddDoes anyone here know why YAML is a good idea?17:05
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Stskeepsgabrbedd: it really saves me a lot in general packaging work, personally17:07
Stskeepsgabrbedd: i didn't like it too much at first either but it really improves workflow17:07
Stskeepsas well as allows anyone to pick up the maintaining of the pacage17:08
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berndhsYAML is the specify thing ?17:12
Stskeepsyeah17:12
berndhsthe tool that's not available on fedora 14 ?17:12
Stskeepsinstall from source?17:12
Stskeepsthat's what i do17:12
Stskeeps:P17:12
berndhsi thought it was a python 2.7 issue17:13
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gabrbeddStskeeps: How does it save you work?17:14
Sageberndhs: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/fedora/14/noarch/17:14
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gabrbeddWhenever I use it, I spend half my time fighting YAML to generate a proper .spec file.17:14
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Stskeepsgabrbedd: as a starter, i don't need to manually sort out patches, i just add them to the Patches: list and they're applied. when i have to package something, it's trivial. new version of sw, trivial, etc..17:15
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berndhsso this is practical now for any distro using rpm ?17:17
gabrbeddStskeeps: Hmmm... that's true.  I've flubbed that one up before.17:17
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gabrbeddStskeeps: And the builders are nice (when there is one).17:18
Stskeepsin addition to that, it really aids the transformation from being a debian person to doing meego packaging17:18
gabrbeddStskeeps: Does Specify support quilt series fiels?17:18
Stskeeps:P17:18
Stskeepsgabrbedd: not sure, send a patch?17:18
Stskeeps:P17:18
gabrbeddWell, I'm a debian person... and so far I've really enjoyed RPM packaging.17:19
Stskeepsyeah, me too :P17:19
gabrbeddYAML... not so much.17:19
gabrbedd:-)17:19
Stskeepsyaml is like wine, really good when you've used it a bit17:19
Stskeeps:P17:19
gabrbeddStskeeps: Well, after running into trouble, I noticed that a lot of packages have abandonded their YAML files.17:20
gabrbeddStskeeps: So, I figured I would ask.17:20
gabrbeddI'll give it another try. :-)17:20
Stskeepsgabrbedd: or never had them17:20
gabrbeddYes, but having one and abandoning was confirming my opinion "this is just wasting my time."17:21
gabrbedd:-p17:21
Stskeepsgive it some time :)17:22
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gabrbeddYep, I'll give it another shot.  Now that I'm dealing with more patch sets... that part makes a lot more sense, now.17:22
berndhshow reliable is the %{_vendor} macro ? will that stay as "meego" ?17:23
Stskeepsit used to be MeeGo until it broke gcc17:23
Stskeepsnow it's meego17:23
Stskeeps:P17:23
w00t_...17:23
w00t_do I want to know that story?17:23
Stskeepsno17:23
berndhsi was thinking that when apple see the light and starts using meego, they will change %{_vendor}17:23
* gabrbedd always removes %{_vendor}17:24
berndhsthere are packages that dont use pkgconfig, so I still need to differentiate some names17:25
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gabrbeddbergie: You're using it in the package name ??17:27
dnearythp about?17:27
gabrbeddberndhs: ^^^  (sorry, bergie!)17:27
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berndhsi'm using it as %if X%{_vendor} == Xmeego17:28
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berndhsand if that stays Xmeego its bad enough, but if I have to conside Xhtc and Xchinamobile its worse17:30
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jonnorberndhs: I suspect meego defines a meego version or release macro17:31
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gabrbeddberndhs: I just had M4 flashbacks....17:32
jonnorsimilar to fedora and suse_version17:32
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gabrbeddberndhs: Are you using it with YAML... or just SPEC files?  (just curious)17:33
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berndhsjust spec17:34
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berndhsmeego version has some issue, I think it has a dot . in it17:34
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berndhsactually I generate spec files, I write them in pieces17:35
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gabrbeddStskeeps: Do you know if there are plans to add window frames in the Tablet UX ?17:40
w00t_frames around what?17:40
w00t_they already have a titlebar17:40
berndhsfarmes take up space :)17:41
gabrbeddWell, a title bar I guess is what I mean.17:41
gabrbeddAnd no, I don't see title bars.17:41
gabrbeddberndhs: Yes, but there is a "frameless window hint" that apps can set to tell the WM "I'll draw my own title bar, thank you."17:42
w00t_they aren't WM drawn17:42
w00t_screenshot please?17:42
w00t_or photo etc17:42
berndhsgabrbedd: yes but then you have to do your own moving and such. Also the hint is ignored on some systems17:42
gabrbeddw00t_: Bug 2953 has a similar screen shot.17:43
_MeeeGoBot_Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2953 nor, High, ---, jesse.barnes, REOP, Many third-party Apps' window (i.e. glxgears, xterm) is not working in the fullscreen mode17:43
gabrbeddThat bug is now resoved on Handset UX, but not for Tablet UX.17:43
w00t_gabrbedd: ok, if they're not using the infrastructure, then they won't have frames17:43
w00t_I don't imagine that will be fixed unless someone works on fixing it17:44
gabrbeddw00t_: What infrastructure?17:44
w00t_QML, etc17:44
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gabrbeddSo all apps need to be QML to be MeeGo?  That's BS.17:45
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w00t_that's the supported developer story, yes17:45
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gabrbeddsupported developer story?17:47
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w00t_gabrbedd: my point is, Qt is the framework of choice for meego, so, while anything else not working properly is a valid bug, I don't imagine it will get fixed unless someone actually steps up to get it fixed (either as a hobby, or for whatever reason, investing commercial developers' time into it, presumably because they want things other than Qt)17:52
w00t_(this isn't really news, or anything - stuff doesn't get fixed unless someone wants to fix it)17:52
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gabrbeddw00t_: And patches don't get accepted unless someone wants the patch.17:53
w00t_gabrbedd: I personally have had no problems getting my patches integrated; so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make17:53
w00t_gabrbedd: are you saying you have fixed this, and your patch hasn't been accepted? if so, I'd like to know more17:53
gabrbeddw00t_: The point is "people have strong opinions on this... are there any current plans?"17:54
w00t_gabrbedd: given that it hasn't been (properly) fixed for ~a year, I'd say no17:54
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Stskeepswhich bug are we speaking about again?17:54
gabrbeddw00t_: Also, bugs against the Tablet UX are being rejected still... because they don't apply.17:54
w00t_gabrbedd: I know, I'm subscribed to the bug to get categories set up17:55
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gabrbeddw00t_: And the bug is FIXED in the Handet UX.17:55
w00t_but that is correct -- you can't just file bugs in the wrong place17:55
w00t_ok, so go look at the handset ux, see how it was fixed, and work on transplanting the fix to tablet, and getting it accepted?17:55
gabrbeddw00t_: Anyway, I've got no problems working on an issue like this... but I don't want to spend hours doing work that will be spurned.17:56
w00t_(it won't be easy, though, there's a lot of complex stuff there)17:56
Stskeepsis it the fullscreening of non-mtf apps stuff?17:56
w00t_Stskeeps: yes17:56
gabrbeddw00t_: Right, and if Joe is already wokring on it... all well and good.17:56
Stskeepsthat broke recently again because of the tablet ux guys breaking mdecorator17:57
gabrbeddStskeeps: No title bars for apps.17:57
w00t_btw, just adding a titlebar won't really solve it anyway17:57
w00t_it'll just give you a rather out of place looking titlebar :P17:57
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w00t_(i.e. there's no close button on tablet or anything like that)17:57
* gabrbedd is getting aggravated... will go get some coffee.17:58
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Stskeepsgood morning DawnFoster18:00
w00t_o/ Dawn18:00
DawnFosterafternoon Stskeeps18:00
DawnFosterhey w00t_18:00
w00t_how's #meego's favorite community manager?18:01
w00t_:P18:01
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DawnFosterha! Still waking up *tea in hand*18:02
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tomeuis zypper able to install debuginfo rpms?18:18
gabrbeddtomaw: Yes, but you have to add (or enable) the "debug" repos.  The package and debug repos are separated.18:20
gabrbeddtomaw: Package names have `*-debuginfo` at the end.18:20
tomeuah, think I know how to add that repo18:21
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tomeuworked, maybe it's time to make my first wiki contribution18:22
* TSCHAKeee hugs everybody... tablet UX source opened!!! :)18:23
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xpltTSCHAKeee: \o/18:26
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tomeuif anybody wants to check: http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=Zypper&diff=35356&oldid=3345018:28
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w00t_hey tomeu o/18:29
tomeuhi w00t_ :)18:29
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mnementhRobot101: we handle actions at the UI layer calling apps or using dbus calls. I don't know that if it was provided by libfolks I would use it since most of our apps launch at the UI layer for now.18:39
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Robot101mnementh: telepathy has a mechanism for launching requests at the framework layer18:42
Robot101mnementh: which we'd like to add support for in libfolks18:42
Robot101other stuff like mailto: and http: we can do with MIME handling18:42
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Robot101what other things need doing from an address book context do you think?18:43
Robot101drilling down to social networking statuses I guess, but it depends if the social things support per-person views or if they just show up aggregated in the panels18:44
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mnementhRobot101: let me get back to you on that I think qt-folks provides a lot of what I need for online status, i need to plug in recent communication like call history, recent social networking updates, designers are still debating if that would duplicate panels too much18:49
Robot101cool - well we've got a Qt API for the Telepathy logger which has our IM and VOIP call history18:49
Robot101but of course, you don't store cellular there, so you need to query two places... boo hoo18:49
Robot101(I wonder if we could use telepathy-ring just for call and message logging purposes? :P)18:50
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Robot101do we need a libcalllog which reads and aggregates multiple sources of call logs...? :D :(18:51
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dnearyHi Robot10119:04
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lcuksigh19:32
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berndhslcuk: my sentiments exactly19:34
TSCHAKeee???19:34
TSCHAKeeedid I miss something?19:34
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* npm fixes netbook 1.2 network horkage by installing latest connman,bluez,ophono from http://download.meego.com/live/devel:/connectivity:/latest/Trunk/i586/20:01
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npmrevels in a wired connection that works20:04
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berndhsthis fixes bug 12795 ?20:05
_MeeeGoBot_Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12795 nor, Medium, ---, sameo, ASSI, connman crashes during suspend with manual IP20:05
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npmperhaps... it fixes https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9007 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13778 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14822 and a whole bunch of others20:07
_MeeeGoBot_Bug 9007 nor, High, ---, martin.xu, RESO WORKSFORME, [REG]network notification pop up about every 5 minutes20:07
_MeeeGoBot_Bug 13778 maj, Medium, 1.1.90.4, martin.xu, ASSI, [upstream 0.71 has fixed]connection problems, page allocation failures20:07
_MeeeGoBot_Bug 14822 nor, Medium, ---, martin.xu, ASSI, [REG]Wifi list will refresh in few minutes20:07
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npmi got tired of waiting to see connman 0.71 ... so i google searched for an RPM and found the repo above20:08
npmi'll update the bugs once i see it working stable for a whole day20:08
berndhssounds reasonable20:08
npmnot that it matters since the bugs are closed as "worksforme" anyways20:09
berndhsi use https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13653 as a workaround20:09
_MeeeGoBot_Bug 13653 nor, Medium, 1.3, sameo, ASSI, ConnMan applet disconnect does not disconnect ipv620:09
npmthey're all dups, along with several others.20:09
berndhsdisconnect wired from ipv4, live happily with ipv6 connection20:09
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npmyeah i thought about forcing a different pathway thru connman... then i realized i don't have an ipv6 net to connect to20:10
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npmhttps://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13778#c34 was the key to my searching for connman version >> 0.69 which is buggy and still in all latest meego releases20:11
_MeeeGoBot_Bug 13778 maj, Medium, 1.1.90.4, martin.xu, ASSI, [upstream 0.71 has fixed]connection problems, page allocation failures20:11
berndhsanyone can make a local ipvt net, and tunnels are free20:11
berndhss/ipvt/ipv6/20:12
infobotberndhs meant: anyone can make a local ipv6 net, and tunnels are free20:12
npmif i wanted to make debugging the network stack of meego more of a distraction than it's already been....20:12
npmnow i can get back to work :-)20:12
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berndhshmm i can just add that repo20:13
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npmthat's prolly the easiest fix20:14
npmor you can say "zypper install http://......rpm20:14
npmgiving a full path to the desired  RPM's from http://download.meego.com/live/devel:/connectivity:/latest/Trunk/i586/20:15
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npmjust make sure to satisfy all the dependencies in one "zypper in"20:15
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berndhsits a small repo, so adding it shouldn't confuse things20:15
berndhsnot like adding all kinds of under-development things20:16
npmtrue20:16
npmand then you should just be able to zypper up20:16
berndhsthat too20:16
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* CosmoHill stabs MSSQL20:43
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* lcuk uses MIC2 to play around building an image20:46
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* CosmoHill goes looking for a SQL programmer20:47
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CosmoHilloh you cock end, at not point did MSSQL think to go "btw you need to prefix this line with SET"20:50
gabrbeddlcuk: So, are your sighs related to mic2?  (Mine are...)20:51
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lcukyeah gabrbedd - i have to dig into ubuntu to solve a bug20:52
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gabrbeddlcuk: Which bug?  I'm on ubuntu, too.  Maybe we can work together.  :-)20:53
lcukI am on 10.04 and it does not have qemu 0.13 backported20:54
* gabrbedd was up to 1AM futzing with failed mic2 builds.20:54
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gabrbeddlcuk: doesn't meego tools provide the qemu we need?20:54
lcukusing the provided 0.12blah version it crashes after downloading data20:55
lcuknot in the ubuntu repos20:55
lcukbecause when the tools was being made the versions matched20:55
gabrbeddah, I see.  hmmm...20:56
lcukI can solve it20:56
lcukbut it is from an unofficial repository and probably would not be a long term solution20:56
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lcukthe patches should be pushed upstream :)20:57
gabrbeddI remember in the 1.0 days having to install a special meego-supplied qemu for 10.04.20:57
lcukor backported or wahtever is needed20:57
lcukyeah gabrbedd for the other OS's in the tools repo there are rpms20:57
lcukbut it was a concious decision to not include it20:57
specialgabrbedd: I dealt with this last night - you can install two packages from natty manually to get qemu 0.1420:57
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gabrbeddOK.20:57
gabrbeddspecial: Actually, this isn't what I was dealing with last night.20:58
specialI meant that I was having issues with qemu 0.12.x last night20:58
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gabrbeddspecial: I was building b0rked images.  I think it's because I stopped using `--pkgmgr=yum`20:58
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Stskeepsuse qemu 0.1321:00
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Stskeepsand yeah, zypp backend is quirky21:01
gabrbedd...not to mention zypp backend is default21:01
lcukStskeeps, yeah that is the ubuntu problem, in the 10.04 repository it is only 0.1221:01
gabrbedd:-)21:01
specialand in 10.1021:01
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lcukspecial, you have the same problem21:02
lcukor had21:02
speciallcuk: had, I installed the natty packages manually and that fixed it.21:02
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lcukgabrbedd, http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.file-systems.ceph.devel/157321:20
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lcukhmm that might not be it either21:21
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lcukspecial, which repo line is the new one on? :$21:21
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gabrbeddlcuk: :-)21:22
gabrbeddlcuk: So... are you building MeeGo images from within Qemu?21:22
speciallcuk: I wasn't in the mood to wrestle with repos, I just installed the .debs.21:22
speciallcuk: http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/qemu-kvm-extras-static http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/qemu-user-static download links are on there21:22
lcukthanks special21:23
lcukgabrbedd, just following the image building stuff on the wiki21:24
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gabrbeddlcuk: Been a while since I read the wiki on that stuff.  I've only recently started having troubles with mic21:27
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gabrbeddlcuk: well... /different/ troubles that is...21:27
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lcukheh there are always different troubles.21:30
lcukhopefully we get past them.21:30
lcuk:)21:30
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lbtevening22:03
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o0-Dan-0ofinally got my n900 ^22:03
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o0-Dan-0o:D22:03
lbt:)22:04
w00t_rustylynch: ping22:05
o0-Dan-0o(used) unfortunately it has a small very small chip in the display =/22:05
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o0-Dan-0oother than that seems fine22:06
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lcukandroid 3.0 has 20 apps.  http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/03/31/182237/Android-30-Is-Trickling-In-But-Are-the-Apps22:28
rustylynchw00t_: i'm back22:29
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berndhslcuk: android 3.0 has me beat, I only have 7 apps22:30
lcukwell with some standardness around meego we could have 1000s per day easily22:31
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berndhsyes probably22:31
lcukafterall, definition of an app is something people can click and select to install22:31
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lcukopen qt creator, choose nice picture, write a mesage on it and put it on the app mall22:32
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lcukor some other ide22:32
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lcukberndhs, which are your 7 apps?22:32
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* lcuk could probably muster 10 usable apps and about 100 fragments22:33
berndhslisted here http://berndhs.users.sourceforge.net/22:33
lcukahh yes, seeing the page reminds me!22:33
lcukthe link to sourceforge is 404ing22:34
lcukfor notably22:34
berndhslet me check that22:34
lcukhm22:35
berndhsworks from here22:35
berndhshttp://notably.sourceforge.net/22:35
lcukworked 2nd time, yeah I see22:35
berndhsthe bottom one is QML, the rest are vanilla Qt22:36
lcukberndhs, yeah22:36
lcukI see notably is using 4.6.122:36
lcukI gather that would work on the n8x0 as well as n900?22:36
berndhsi forget22:36
lcukheh22:37
berndhsi havent tried them on N900s22:37
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lcuksaw the newsreader yesterday I tihnk22:37
berndhsthe build in the OBS, screens layouts are not right for really small displays i'm sure22:37
lcukberndhs, yeah, always difficult to make apps fit into small screens22:39
lcukit is a tough thing and needs reminding people regularly to get it right.22:39
berndhsespecially if you want to provide context for the main thing you're showing, where do you put it22:40
berndhsi dont have a device to try it on22:40
lcukwell with Qt, you can technically run it on your desktop22:40
lcukand have added flexibility os sizing the window22:40
berndhsresolution is very different22:41
lcukany app that dynamically handles rsizing should work well22:41
lcukas long as it starts <=800*48022:41
lcuk;)22:41
berndhsso stuff that is 3 inches on a desktop isn't the same22:41
w00t_rustylynch: so am I now22:41
w00t_rustylynch: so I have an idea for our booster dilemma22:41
w00t_rustylynch: we can't use booster, because it relies on -fPIC and loading the app as a shared library, but we're looking at this all wrong.. we can instead use meego-qml-launcher as our 'booster'22:42
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w00t_prelaunch it, listen for a dbus message from the launcher saying 'start this', and when it recieves that signal, do all the necessary legwork22:42
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w00t_(i.e. loading the right QML)22:42
rustylynchyea, that was my original idea22:43
w00t_uh oh22:43
rustylynchmikeleib: you listiening22:43
w00t_that makes me think you've already ruled it out :)22:43
rustylynchi know there were complications22:43
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w00t_uh oh :-)22:44
rustylynchwell... mikeleib and tripzero they can describe some of the complications.... i just got the ball rolling, but didn't keep up with the details22:44
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rustylynchi think he is still out for lunch22:44
w00t_sure, ok22:45
w00t_I'll roll it past them, I didn't know it had been thought of22:45
* w00t_ -> dinner22:45
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lcukw00t_, if all processes are inside qml-launcher then everything is in process22:45
lcuk(basically identical to liqbase or hildon-desktop) and if apps crash it crashes the others22:46
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lcukso do that only if you arereasonably sure apps cannot crash.22:47
CosmoHillwhen I make the ovi suite full screen, why is it like 10 pixels taller than it should be22:47
w00t_they aren't all in process, and that isn't what I'm suggesting...22:47
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w00t_but dinner22:47
lcuksending dbus message into meego-qml-launcher which does tha parsing and running (faster) would mean they were?22:48
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Stskeepsw00t_: you'd still have to fork though?22:59
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rustylynchone of the issues was how to deal with dbus.... it's not fork safe23:07
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w00t_Stskeeps: no23:12
w00t_load QML, shutdown dbus, pre-exec new qml-launcher which restarts dbus23:13
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thiago_homewhat isn't fork-safe?23:20
thiago_homethe connection?23:20
thiago_homeif so, yes, the connection isn't fork-safe23:21
thiago_homeno socket activity is. The file descriptor is inherited by the child process and they're tied.23:21
w00t_[this is why I'd not fork to do it]23:22
thiago_homeare you talking about the booster?23:22
w00t_thiago_home: not exactly23:22
w00t_a mechanism *like* the booster23:22
thiago_homea fork+dlopen mechanism?23:22
w00t_booster isn't really useful because the Intel guys want to avoid -fPIC (and the performance hit that comes with it), plus having a booster boosting a shared process seems a bit strange23:23
w00t_so what I'm suggesting is to prestart that shared process and have some way of saying 'load this application's QML and go about your business'23:23
thiago_homejames told me the performance penalty with -fPIC23:23
thiago_homebut remember that there are a LOT of libraries loaded23:23
thiago_homethe amount of code in libraries dwarfs the amount of code in the application23:23
w00t_yup23:24
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lcukthiago_home, so, how do you avoid that situation?  In Windows, once a library is loaded afaik the code memory space is available for all apps23:25
thiago_homeif you profile an application running, I'll bet that the highest uses are in libraries anyway23:25
lcukit just reinstantiates the data portion per binary23:25
thiago_homelcuk: Windows uses prelinked dirty text23:25
thiago_homeif the DLL is loaded at its prelinked address, the text pages are identical to the disk, with no PIC register23:26
lcukthiago_home, within Qt or all libraries?23:26
w00t_thiago_home: preloading the launcher app will preload a great proportion of those libraries, though23:26
w00t_not all of them, admittedly, as some of them are loaded via QML23:26
thiago_homeif it needs to be relocated, then the text pages will be dirty23:26
lcukbut does that have the effect of making app startup time better23:26
w00t_thiago_home: I'm going to (attempt to) get meego running on my ideapad to profile exactly that, anyway23:26
thiago_homelcuk: I meant in general, for any modern app. I'm not thinking specifically of Qt here.23:26
lcukw00t_, sure, but they will be in process23:26
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lcukok thiago_home good23:27
* w00t_ would still give an arm and a leg for a way to generate FTC traces23:27
lcukw00t_, in process *can* work23:27
lcukand work well, but the code has to be bulletproof23:27
lcukwhich is where Qa comes in23:27
w00t_lcuk: which this code is not23:27
w00t_both in terms of memory leaks and crashes23:27
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w00t_there's too much surface area23:27
w00t_especially when you add third party applications into that mix23:27
lcukw00t_, in maemo this situation is addressed every day23:28
lcukwith user available widgets23:28
w00t_huh?23:28
lcukhaving same situation23:28
lcukall widgets are in process23:28
w00t_I think you'll find they're not23:28
lcukbad ones are flagged uqickly23:28
lcukthey are .so23:28
* w00t_ wrote one, and it certainly wasn't a shared object23:29
w00t_all widgets are is an X window with a certain atom set on it23:29
w00t_it isn't (and doesn't need to be / shouldn't be) run in process23:29
lcukhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Application_Development/Writing_Desktop_Widgets#Building_Widgets23:29
lcuk100% certain23:30
thiago_homeeasy to do with Lighthouse+Wayland server and Lighthouse+Wayland client23:30
lcukTo use a widget, it needs to be built as a shared library. This is done by passing the -shared flag to gcc.23:30
lcukgcc -shared `pkg-config --libs --cflags hildon-1 libhildondesktop-1` widget.c -o lib-widget.so23:30
thiago_homethat was the demo sroedal showed abouot two weeks ago in the office :-)23:30
w00t_lcuk: ok, well then Qt is better than the gtk solution23:30
lcukthiago_home, so in lighthouse the heavy qt code is in wayland server23:30
w00t_because it doesn't need that23:30
w00t_lcuk: http://blog.exys.org/entries/2010/Maemo5_Lastfm_Widget_With_Qt.html23:31
lcukw00t_, that is plugin widgets into the main desktop23:31
w00t_lcuk: ^23:31
w00t_read that link23:31
w00t_it's a seperate process, it's a widget, and it works wonderfully23:31
thiago_homelcuk: actually, what I meant was a Lighthouse app with the XCB backend, but running as a Wayland server23:31
w00t_anyway23:31
w00t_I'm really not going to argue, if you think it's a good design, great23:31
lcukw00t_, awesome - but that would have startup time problem23:32
w00t_but I don't think that tying your reliability to the hordes of idiotic third party developers is a great idea23:32
w00t_lcuk: it doesn't23:32
ali1234maybe it was just me, but half the widgets i installed on maemo5 never worked23:32
w00t_no more so than running a regular application23:32
ali1234ie they never showed up in the menu, or they showed up but after adding them nothing appeared on the desktop23:32
w00t_ali1234: having tried to walk someone through writing one, I can wholeheartedly say that they are a pain in the _ass_ and I never wish to repeat the experience23:33
* lcuk agrees23:33
* w00t_ ponders how best to get meego on the ip23:34
w00t_i'd prefer to have used a microsd, but...23:34
lcukhttp://download.meego.com/testing-daily/builds/trunk/1.1.99.0.20110330.80/images/23:34
lcukpinetrail usb image23:34
w00t_I'll be building my own, as there are certain packages I want on it, I'm really hoping I'm not going to have to find a USB drive though23:35
lcukthen get image writer from here: http://meego.com/devices/netbook/installing-meego-your-netbook23:35
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* w00t_ makes a hmph noise23:37
* lcuk makes an oooh noise23:38
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lcukw00t_, I updated mic2 earlier and have just gotten first n900 image, what is your boggle23:38
w00t_lcuk: hm?23:38
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lcukgabrbedd, the updated qemu as highlighted by special worked a treat :D23:39
lcukw00t_, I was having a problem with ubuntu and mic223:39
lcukbecause ubuntu 10.04 does not include latest qemu which is required it was crashing.23:40
lcuknow it works :)23:40
lcuk1/99 cured.23:40
* lcuk moves onto #223:40
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thiago_homew00t_: it might be possible to dlopen an executable compiled with -z nocopyreloc23:44
w00t_hmm, what's that do?23:45
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thiago_homedisables copy relocations23:45
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w00t_hm23:46
lcukthiago_home, you spoke about the Windows way as being dirty method, but if it works and would boost startup time drastically?23:47
lcukor would that require core linux dll loading modifications?23:47
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gabrbeddlcuk: Yay! \o/23:48
thiago_homelcuk: I meant "dirty" in the sense of dirty pages23:48
lcukthiago_home, does Qt make use of self modifying code?23:48
thiago_homea dirty page is a page that has modifications compared to its backing store23:48
lcukor other thigns which would make pages dirty?23:48
lcuk^^ yes, I am aware of its meaning23:48
thiago_homethe JIT in JSC produces code23:49
thiago_homeit's not really self-modifying, though23:49
thiago_homeonce produced, it stays fixed23:49
lcukthat is different to dll library functions though?23:49
lcukunless it self modifies its own jump table23:49
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lcuk(I remember original win binaries did that occasionally23:50
thiago_homebut any library on Linux (except NVidia's libGLcore) uses "clean PIC text"23:50
thiago_homeyeah, I did a lot of self-modifying code in my DOS days23:50
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thiago_homethe INT instruction takes an immediate, so to write an interrupt function, I used to write to the code segment23:50
lcukthiago_home, does that mean Linux cannot use DEP (Data Execute Protection) code?23:50
thiago_homeno, it can23:51
thiago_homeW^X, NX, whatever you call it23:51
lcukbut the pages are marked as text?23:51
lcukyeah23:51
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thiago_homethe text pages are read-only23:51
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thiago_homesecure distros don't allow libraries with TEXTREL23:51
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lcukyeah but text == data, I thought NX disallowed that23:51
thiago_homethat is, relocations on the text pages23:51
thiago_homeno, text == code23:51
thiago_homedata is data23:52
lcukroger, terminology mixup then \o23:52
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lcukit does not matter much, afaik we don't even have NX/DEP or similar on ARM anyway23:52
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lcukso the problem definition is: to load in a 1kb QML file, you need to load many MB of libraries?23:53
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thiago_homea lot23:54
thiago_homethe interesting question is: how many *more* MB do you need compared to what's already loaded23:55
w00t_why oh why is meego servers so slow23:56
* w00t_ falls asleep waiting for the download23:56
thiago_hometake, for example, kwrite. It has VSZ of 95 MB and RSS of 34 MB.23:57
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w00t_meego tablet is worse23:57
thiago_homeyou'd think that starting kwrite requires 34 MB of RAM. But in fact, the marginal impact of starting it is only 13 MB.23:58
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lcukthiago_home, do any of your technical guys know the low level differences (more than descriptions thereof) that oculd actually be set about *trying* a linux system which used windowesq library shering semantics23:58
w00t_(most apps are RSS ~20mb, VSZ is around the 100-120mb mark I think)23:58
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lcukit would be a revolutionary thing for all of linux if it could be done!23:58
w00t_well, that RSS is after I got it to stop taking GL contexts23:58
w00t_before that, 30-40mb per process23:58
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lcukthiago_home, I would not know how to even pose such a question on the ML to ask if others have tried before23:59

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