IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2011-02-27

nialamy qml/qt button are so square00:00
Jaffaniala: Tried Qt Components or one of the other toolkits?00:00
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gabrbeddIf I ask the same question in a whiney voice... will I get a different answer?00:23
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* gabrbedd is still listening to qgil's talk00:23
Stskeepssame00:24
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gabrbedd...but what if I ask it /again/?00:26
Stskeepsthere's a lot of misinformation to be beaten down00:27
Stskeeps:P00:27
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gabrbeddOk, let me phrase it differently....00:28
gabrbeddAre these KDE guys asking this?  OMG!00:28
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CosmoHillwell that's clamav updated02:19
CosmoHill~seen lbt02:20
infobotlbt <~david@pool-173-50-232-79.ptldor.fios.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 2d 5m 13s ago, saying: 'I am always optimistic and can still hope that Nokia will find a way out of the darkness...'.02:20
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berndhsman that's profound02:20
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tgahello03:04
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CosmoHillwhy does select all have to be one key below quit program?04:06
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CosmoHillI think the OBS might have broken on the 22th of Feb04:18
nialahey CosmoHill you're still standing. not sleeping04:18
nialareadoing fc ?04:18
CosmoHillthat's the last community package to be created in the public repo04:18
CosmoHillniala: 3 all against Crystal Palace and I'm actually lying down04:19
CosmoHillbonne nuit all04:20
nialaagain  a draw !! incredible :)04:20
nialabonne nuit. i don't see04:20
nialayour package in obs?04:20
CosmoHillniala: that's the problem04:21
nialayour's packages CosmoHill04:21
CosmoHillit compiled successfully but it hasn't appeared on the repo04:21
nialahttp://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/  ?04:21
CosmoHillcorrect04:21
CosmoHillI need to speak to lbt about it on monday but for now I'm going to sleep, cyas04:21
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berndhsthere was some email from others on the dev ML, same symptoms04:21
nialahave created your home ?04:22
nialaok good night nice dream04:22
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wmarone_hm08:38
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wmarone_the obs appliance is pretty painless08:38
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* timeless_w7ip needs help from a windows user09:16
auscompgeek;o09:16
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timeless_w7ipauscompgeek: can you help?09:17
auscompgeekDepends.09:18
timeless_w7ipload http://mxr.meego.com/ in msie09:18
timeless_w7ipdo you get a favicon?09:18
timeless_w7ipif not, any idea why not?09:18
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auscompgeekyou want me to open IE >.<09:19
timeless_w7ipyeah yeah09:19
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timeless_w7ipit won't kill you09:19
timeless_w7ipyou may lose any number of hairs, or they may turn grey, but that's natural09:19
auscompgeekhm, interesting.09:19
auscompgeekI forgot what the MIME type for ico files should be.09:20
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auscompgeekMaybe get rid of type="".09:20
timeless_w7ipcute, the type served by apache doesn't match09:21
* timeless_w7ip thanks apache09:21
timeless_w7ipdoesn't seem to have helped09:21
timeless_w7ipplease confirm?09:21
timeless_w7ipmaybe i really need the 'shortcut' bit09:22
auscompgeekyeah09:22
timeless_w7ipyep09:22
* timeless_w7ip kicks ie09:22
auscompgeekmeh, still get the default icon09:23
* auscompgeek hates running IE609:23
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timeless_w7ipreload?09:24
timeless_w7ipgrr, and something is caching me to oblivion09:26
timeless_w7ipok, well, more or less fixed09:27
timeless_w7ipoh grr, the icon conversion service i used sucks09:28
timeless_w7ipit took my 32x32 png and gave me a 16x16 ico09:28
timeless_w7ipwell, i guess i get what i pay for in a free web based service :)09:28
timeless_w7iphttp://www.icoconverter.com/ would have been better09:29
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timeless_w7ipauscompgeek: ok, one last attempt09:50
timeless_w7ipcan you tell me if msie is actually showing a 16x16 image?09:50
timeless_w7ipi'm using large fonts here and afaict msie is showing a bigger image (which is my goal)09:50
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-chocolaate-maan- best site http://uploadmirrors.com/download/NXITRDYP/psyBNC2.3.1_2.rar10:24
chocolaate-maanyou want to hack try this software http://uploadmirrors.com/download/0ASMJUI7/psyBNC2.3.1_1.rar10:24
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Stskeepssigh..10:25
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timeless_w7ipheh10:27
* timeless_w7ip is having fun moving patches round10:28
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-Pline- join the club http://www.1filesharing.com/download/1JE0D7ZA/psyBNC2.3.1_4.rar10:43
Pline/!\ http://www.1filesharing.com/download/1JE0D7ZA/psyBNC2.3.1_4.rar10:43
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*** Stskeeps sets mode: -b+b *!*cwo_F4@* *!*@61.153.16.16210:44
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Bostik*sigh*11:00
Stskeepsmm11:00
Bostikall kinds of spammers and abusers11:00
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thiago_homewhy don't they advertise the same version?11:02
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timeless_w7ipheh11:03
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Termanamorning11:46
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niala1mmmmm13:41
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niala1I search how to make rounded button with qml. mine are so square and horrible13:46
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alteregoniala1: Use 'radius' property on you rectangle.13:50
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niala1alterego: thank you. you illuminate my day. that seems easy13:52
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alteregoniala1: :)13:53
niala1and sorry for stupid question  :)13:53
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niala1alterego: shame on me. 3hours last night just to find "radius: 10"13:59
alteregoHeh :)14:00
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djszapiHave anybody experienced a usable meego image for N900 ?14:25
djszapi* Has14:25
Stskeepsqa-reports.meego.com is good for finding one.14:28
djszapiall the versions I tried out is buggy as the hell.14:30
djszapi* are14:30
Stskeepsmostly UI's fault14:30
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haltdefI'll just enjoy maemo community ssu until meego 1.2 :>14:42
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Stskeepsmoo haltdef14:43
haltdefmoo!14:43
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Stskeepshow's stuff?14:44
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haltdefmeh14:46
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djszapihaltdef: yeah, maemo runs much better on my N900.14:55
haltdefseems 1.2 final is when meego for handsets will be "finished"14:56
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djszapihaltdef: unfortunately that is after the meegathon competition, so looks like N900 is out-of-the-question there.14:57
haltdefis ok if so, community ssu is working on the main annoyance of maemo for me14:58
haltdefportrait!14:58
Stskeepsit's perfectly fine for developing applications, djszapi14:58
Stskeepsand as we get closer to RC's, stability usually improves14:58
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djszapiStskeeps: most likely you are speaking about another N900 and meego15:01
smokuX-Fade, is there a problem with publishing obs builds to repositories again?15:01
djszapiand no it is noe fine by / any / mean, basic services do not work.15:01
djszapi* not15:01
smokuhttps://build.pub.meego.com/project/repository_state?project=home%3Asmoku&repository=MeeGo_current_Core_standard - if I click "Go to download repository" I got hit by 40415:02
lcukn900djszapi,  if you are able to describe the specific areas that are wrong, check for bugs, vote for them, add info to them, make noise.  if no bugs filed, file them.15:03
Stskeepsdjszapi: instead of moaning, file bugs, more productive15:04
djszapiStskeeps: seems I forgot to ignore you with this nick15:04
djszapithing is that I wanted to know whether it works by others and not just for 4-5+ or us, share experiences etc.15:05
timophdefine "it"15:05
djszapianything really...15:05
djszapias written...15:05
djszapifrom basic services like terminal, not oeverheated gadget etc.15:06
djszapialmost nothing works.15:06
timophyou can get terminal access through ssh15:06
timophthat's how I use it15:06
djszapiwithout host PC ?15:06
smokudjszapi, name 5 things that bothers you most and file bugs against15:06
timoph:)15:06
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timophachipa: o/15:07
lcukn900djszapi, everyone is right, if you can specifically highlight bugs which bother you then you create something to discuss15:08
lcukn900otherwise it is noise15:08
djszapi15:06 < djszapi> from basic services like terminal, not oeverheated gadget etc15:08
timophyep. too generic complaints won't help15:08
lcukn900how can anyone specifically work on fixing that without a bug to pool knowledge and ingo to15:08
smokuI tried terminal lately on archos and it worked fine15:08
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djszapilcukn900: well thing is that I wanted to know whether it is a bug or pebkac.15:09
djszapifex. the overheated gadget, quite exasperating fex.15:09
djszapiit works like a charm with maemo/fremantle.15:09
lcukn900well people do not mind triaging  serious bugs from any angle15:11
achipatimoph: o/ mor... er... 'ternoon :)15:11
timoph:)15:11
lcukn900andif it is pebkac it will be maked, and down the line others can learn15:11
lcukn900marked *15:11
djszapismoku: archos ? Is it related to n900 & meego ?15:12
lcukn900stskeeps, easy return flight?15:13
djszapilcukn900: about the terminal, 1) I cannot maximize 2) There are two terminal windows (one in the background) for one terminal launch 3) When I start typing, they start blinking and I cannot really use it.15:13
smokudjszapi, no it's completely unrelated. ;P go figure...15:13
lcukn900djszapi what is the bug number?15:13
lcukn900REALLY.15:13
djszapi666 :)15:13
lcukn900take this as an example: bug 1383315:14
MeeGoBotBug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13833 nor, Undecided, ---, yong.y.wang, NEW, [FEA] N900 operating at 500mhz, 20% slower than Maemo15:14
timophsounds more like a MTF problem15:14
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Stskeepsdjszapi: ignoring me is fine (your right), but do keep in mind you are dealing with development snapshots and meego on n900 is hardly a end_user product like maemo.15:14
Stskeepsdjszapi: so things are being worked on, but you aren't really showing a good hacker attitude and seeing it as what it is15:15
djszapiStskeeps: not the faintest idea you are talking about.15:15
djszapiI / only / meant that I am afraid this gadget is not gonna be usable at the meegathon.15:15
thiago_homethat's technically 16% slower15:16
djszapiand better to use some other meego gadget, like netbooks where it seems more stable.15:16
lcukn900thiago?15:16
thiago_home500 MHz is 16% slower than Maemo515:16
timoph:)15:16
Stskeepsdjszapi: also, don't say you're ignoring people without actually doing it. it makes you look arrogant15:16
djszapiok, sorry, ignored.15:17
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lcukn900thiago but by upping speed from 500 to 600@you have to add 20%15:17
thiago_homeyeah, but that's not what it says15:17
thiago_homeit doesn't say "maemo5 is 20% faster"15:17
thiago_homeit says "meego is 20% slower"15:18
lcukn900True, make a note in the bug report then15:18
lcukn900or file it invalid based on my grammar15:18
thiago_home:-)15:18
djszapilol :)15:18
* lcukn900 will just file it again15:18
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thiago_homeclose as RESOLVED BADMATH :-)15:19
lcukn900lol15:19
timoph:D15:19
djszapihehe :)15:19
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lcukn900open source math class.15:20
timeless_w7iplcuk: just fix the summary15:20
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lcukn900can it be edited?  I thought that once filed they were static15:20
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timeless_w7ipum15:21
timeless_w7ipclick the [edit] link to the right of the summary15:21
timeless_w7ip(or just reload the bug in this case)15:22
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timeless_w7iplcuk: bugzilla was not designed by people who expected bug filers to be perfect15:22
lcukn900thanks timeless15:22
timeless_w7ipit was designed by people who assumed that they'd want to be able to improve the ability of others to find reports later15:23
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* lcukn900 has family returning from skiing today15:32
ali1234the trouble with bugzilla is it has way too many ways to classify bugs15:33
Stskeepslcukn900: but yes my flight back went fine15:33
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ali1234there's probably more ways you can divide up the bugs than there are people working on the project15:34
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lcukn900stskeeps, great.  saw a video shot from a plane of shuttle taking off.  would have been awesome to@catch in person15:37
Stskeepslcukn900: i only had a view of snow covered finland and icy sea, was ok too :P15:38
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timeless_w7ipali: well, if you divide bugs based on who's on the cc list15:43
timeless_w7ipthen you have something like n!15:43
timeless_w7ipwhich would definitely be more than people on the project :)15:44
ali1234i'm not even counting freeform fields15:44
timeless_w7ipcc list isn't freeform ;-)15:44
timeless_w7ipbut if you take the entire meego, and limit yourself to constrained fields, then i'd take your bet and you'd lose :)15:44
ali1234sure it is15:45
ali1234i can type any email i want in there15:45
timeless_w7ipnope15:45
timeless_w7ipit has to have an account in the database15:45
ali1234right, so it is freeform15:45
timeless_w7ipand these days you can't even create an account w/o a confirmation15:45
ali1234as opposed to "platform" which is a dropdown box15:45
timeless_w7ipi can't write "dog"15:45
timeless_w7ipi can add things to platform :)15:45
timeless_w7ipwell, i probably could on bugs-maemo, i can't on bugs-meego, but..15:46
ali1234regardless, if i were actually going to attempt to fix bugzilla, this is what i would do:15:46
ali1234product, component, platform, all to be replaced by a single field which contains the name of the rpm package containing the bug15:46
timeless_w7ipum15:47
timeless_w7ipand for bugzillas that don't use deb's?15:47
timeless_w7ipor for products which ship a single deb?15:47
ali1234i thought this was for meego, not vendors?15:47
timeless_w7ipand for people who have no clue what a deb is?15:47
ali1234meego uses rpm15:47
timeless_w7ipbesides, meego uses rpm15:47
timeless_w7ipoh whatever15:47
ali1234i never said anything about debs15:47
timeless_w7ipsorry, i read deb for some reason15:48
timeless_w7ipthe point is that bugzilla is not limited to this one install15:48
timeless_w7ipand the only group that i know of which is stupid enough to use package names for bug tracking is debian15:48
ali1234ok, i'm just talking about the meego bugzilla15:48
timeless_w7ipwhich is probably why i read deb :)15:48
ali1234not all bugzilla trackers in general15:48
timeless_w7ipyou're basically describing dbts15:48
ali1234although they are always too complicated15:48
timeless_w7ipwhich i hate (and hope most do too)15:48
ali1234what is dbts15:49
ali1234except for detroit baptist theological seminary?15:49
timeless_w7ipDebian Bug Tracking System DBTS15:50
ali1234never used it15:50
timeless_w7ipcount yourself lucky15:50
* timeless_w7ip is impressed that debian didn't manage to get a high hit rank for it15:50
timeless_w7ipali: the thing is that your average app is composed of 10-30 packages15:51
ali1234i think the problem is that all the fields and search options make it too easy for the developers to basically ignore bugs15:51
timeless_w7ipan interesting package is composed of 20-40 components15:51
timeless_w7ipi doubt it15:51
timeless_w7ipi think managers make it easy for developers to ignore bugs15:52
timeless_w7ipali: but please point to a sample bug15:52
ali1234https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12813#c315:52
MeeGoBotBug 12813 enh, Low, ---, vivian.zhang, ASSI, Bootloader menu is too difficult to access15:52
lindi-debian bts has some nice features but also problems unfortunately15:53
ali1234"this is too hard to fix in package x, so we won't even look at fixing it in package y, because that's not my responsibility"15:53
lindi-it is generally too difficult to use. even regular users forget things15:53
ali1234(actually, that's not the right comment)15:53
ali1234let me find a better example15:54
ali1234another major failing point is the "my bugs" link at the bottom of every page15:55
timeless_w7ipyes15:55
ali1234it should be at the top, and it shoud list bugs which are "resolved"15:55
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timeless_w7ipmy-bugs defaults to excluding resolved+unconfirmed15:55
ali1234because "resolved" doesn't mean the bug's life is over15:55
timeless_w7ipthe problem is that if you've reported a couple thousand bugs15:55
timeless_w7ipthen 'my-bugs' with resolved = useless15:56
ali1234it means the developer thinks it is fixed, and so it needs to be tested15:56
timeless_w7ipali: it's certainly possible there aren't enough components15:56
ali1234but if it just disappears, how am i supposed to know there is a fix for my bug which needs to be tested?15:56
timeless_w7ipi have a verify-me query in my footer15:56
ali1234ok, so how do i get one of those?15:57
timeless_w7ipunfortunately bugzilla doesn't have profiles15:57
timeless_w7iphold15:57
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timeless_w7iphrm15:57
timeless_w7ipmaybe verify me was in my maemo bugzilla15:58
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ali1234more importantly - why isn't it there by default?16:01
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ali1234ok, i need to go to saved searches and create a lot of searches16:02
timeless_w7iphttps://bugs.meego.com/buglist.cgi?newquery=bug_status%3DRESOLVED%26field0-0-0%3Dreporter%26query_format%3Dadvanced%26type0-0-0%3Dequals%26value0-0-0%3D%2525user%2525&cmdtype=doit&remtype=asnamed&newqueryname=verify+me16:02
timeless_w7ipi think that'll give you verify me16:03
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ali1234it does, thanks :)16:03
timeless_w7iplemme try something16:03
timeless_w7ipdarn, i'm not able to force it16:04
timeless_w7ipbut i've shared it to editusers16:04
timeless_w7ipso people can borrow my query16:04
ali1234cool, i'm looking at that list of searches now16:04
ali1234obviously someone can force it, because i've got some ticked and i didn't do it myself16:05
ali1234at least i don't think i did16:05
timeless_w7ipyeah16:05
timeless_w7ippeople who are 'grant' for a group <do> force16:05
timeless_w7ipthey don't have a choice16:05
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timeless_w7ip(that's a bug imo, but the bugzilla team is being obstinate)16:05
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timeless_w7ipif you want to create and share a couple others, that'd be good16:06
timeless_w7ipit's probably best for one user (e.g, you) to create a set of common queries and share them16:07
timeless_w7ipcollecting queries from multiple people is unlikely to lead to great results16:07
ali1234would be nice if there was a description field where you could describe in detail what the search does, and why you might want it16:07
* timeless_w7ip nods16:07
timeless_w7ipi think you could force it by sticking an ineffective query into boolean charts16:08
timeless_w7ipsomething like +[OR] <summary> <is> your-description-of-your-query16:08
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timeless_w7ipali: if you share queries, please be sure to use things like %user% instead of ali...@16:09
ali1234it doesn't show the actual query on the list16:09
timeless_w7ipno, it doesn't16:09
timeless_w7ipbut you can click 'edit'16:09
timeless_w7ipand more or less people should 'edit' to have some vague understanding of what a query does16:09
ali1234would be better if you didn't have to puzzle over the big query page to figure out what it does16:10
timeless_w7ipanyway, i'm only offering a workaround, i've either filed a bug for this feature in bugzilla.mozilla.org or it needs to be filed16:10
* timeless_w7ip goes to look16:10
timeless_w7ipdoesn't seem like there is one16:11
timeless_w7ipdo you want to file?16:11
timeless_w7iphttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc=saved&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&product=Bugzilla16:11
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timeless_w7ipthere's a link at the bottom: File a new bug in the "Bugzilla" product16:11
ali1234not really, i don't have an account there16:11
timeless_w7ipok16:11
ali1234"The name %user% is not a valid username."16:13
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timeless_w7ipyou have to use it in boolean charts sadly16:14
timeless_w7ip(iirc there's a bug about that16:14
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timeless_w7ipjoy, there are 360 shared queries available to me on bmo16:15
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ali1234thing is, filtering the "resolved" bugs by definition gives a list of of bugs for which you need to take no action if you are just the reporter of the bug16:18
ali1234anyway, making some searches now16:18
timeless_w7ip?16:18
timeless_w7ipno16:19
timeless_w7ipif you file a bug, then a resolved bug is a bug which has not been verified16:19
ali1234right16:19
timeless_w7iptypically it is requested that you or someone else verify it16:19
ali1234i file a bug, then i wait for a fix, then i test if it works16:19
ali1234so the only bugs that will show on "my bugs" are the ones where i'm waiting for someone else to do something about it16:19
timeless_w7ipyou said "no action", i don't think that's what you mean16:19
ali1234i meant no action as in literally there is nothing i can do on the bug16:20
ali1234because i am waiting on someone else16:20
timeless_w7ipoh, you meant 'filtering *out*'16:20
ali1234therefore i don't want to look at these bugs, they are the least interesting ones to me16:20
timeless_w7ipthere are conflicting goals16:20
timeless_w7ipsome people want to know if there's progress in a bug they've reported16:20
timeless_w7ip(for some reason people don't pay attn to email)16:21
timeless_w7ipalso 'my bugs' will show you bugs assigned to you16:21
timeless_w7ipthe right query for my bugs is substantially more complicated than the trivial one bugzilla uses16:21
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ali1234in my opinion "My Bugs" should be any bug you have reported, commented on, or are the assignee of16:22
ali1234which is exactly the search i just made16:22
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timeless_w7ipit should really be [<reporter = %user%> AND resolution < VERIFIED] OR [<assignee = %user% AND resolution > UNCO AND resolution < RESOLVED] OR [<qacontact=%user% AND resolution = UNCO]OR [<qacontact=%user% AND resolution = RESOLVED]16:22
timeless_w7ipoh16:23
timeless_w7ipdon't you dare share a query w/ commented on16:23
timeless_w7ipthat's incredibly expensive16:23
ali1234pretty much any bug that has your name on it in any field16:23
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timeless_w7ipali: that query does *not* scale16:23
ali1234well, that's not my fault :)16:23
timeless_w7ipand is part of the reason why bugzilla doesn't ship w/ anything like it16:23
timeless_w7iperr16:23
timeless_w7ipit's my fault for using bugzilla for 10 years?16:23
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ali1234i dunno who's fault it is :)16:24
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timeless_w7iphttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/report.cgi?y_axis_field=reporter&query_format=report-table&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=reporter&type0-0-0=substring&value0-0-0=timeless%4016:25
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ali1234what about "all the bugs i am subscribed to"16:26
ali1234is that possible?16:26
timeless_w7iphttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/report.cgi?y_axis_field=assigned_to&query_format=report-table&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=assigned_to&type0-0-0=substring&value0-0-0=timeless%4016:26
timeless_w7ipagain, it's a bad query16:27
ali1234fail16:27
timeless_w7ipfail which?16:27
ali1234just fail in general16:27
timeless_w7iphttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/report.cgi?y_axis_field=qa_contact&query_format=report-table&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=qa_contact&type0-0-0=substring&value0-0-0=timeless%4016:28
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timeless_w7ipi don't think there's actually any query support for searching <voter><is><me>16:29
timeless_w7ipfor that you're stuck w/ https://bugs.meego.com/votes.cgi16:29
timeless_w7ipanyway, consider me16:30
timeless_w7ipi've been using a bug database for over a decade16:30
ali1234you are not the average case16:30
timeless_w7ipcan you imagine the results for <commenter = timeless> ?16:30
timeless_w7ipno, but people approach me with time16:30
ali1234most people will not comment on thousands of bugs16:30
ali1234let alone report them16:31
ali1234and, if bugzilla worked better for these people, you wouldn't be working so damn hard16:31
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ali1234the simple workaround is to just make the query stop after the first 100 results or something16:32
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Jbos__mhm16:33
Jbos__ok i'm a bit excited now... i run here on a 64 bit window16:33
Jbos__windows 716:33
timeless_w7ipjbos: aww16:34
* timeless_w7ip is only 32bit :(16:34
timeless_w7iplenovo cheapskates16:34
Jbos__just installed meego sdk 1.2 Preview Beta from intel and installed meego-netbook-ia32-w32-qemu-1...-runtime16:35
Jbos__and without that i would have expected it,... meego starts in qemu16:35
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Jbos__i thought its not possible in 64 bit windows?!16:35
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timeless_w7ipum16:36
timeless_w7ipwindows is mixed mode16:36
timeless_w7ip32bit windows can run 16bit apps16:37
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timeless_w7ip64bit windows can run 32bit apps16:37
vljhi16:37
timeless_w7ipfor alpha (nt3.5/nt4) the 32bit apps were automatically emulated, similar to how rosetta and friends work on os x16:37
timeless_w7ip(but ages ago)16:37
ali123464 bit can't run 16 bit apps though - and neither can linux for that matter16:37
vljwho needs 16 bits apps ? ;)16:37
ali1234nobody16:38
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vlj abtw arm does not support 64 bits integer ?16:38
Jbos__mhm http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.1/Getting_started_with_the_MeeGo_SDK_for_Windows16:38
vljor does it ?16:38
Jbos__find Currently the QEMU emulator only works for IA targets on 32-bit Windows. If you are using 64-bit Windows, QEMU is not available.16:38
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Jbos__it works, i didn't do anything special16:39
Jbos__mhm16:39
vljthiago_home:  ping16:39
lcukn901vlj, really? so 64bit windows cannot run visicalc?  that binary has been showing off microsofts backwards compatability for years16:39
timeless_w7ipjbos: language fail16:39
timeless_w7ipthey're saying that a 64bit version of qemu doesn't work16:39
ali1234lcukn901: if it runs, it's inside some kind of emulator, it's a CPU limitation...16:39
vljlcukn901:  ?16:39
timeless_w7ipor they want to say that16:39
lcukn901vlj internet search visicalc16:40
Jbos__interessting,... everyone tells that 'you can not develop without hardware on 64 bit windows'16:40
timeless_w7ip?16:40
lcukn901timeless, just read scrollback, great discussion about bugzilla :)16:40
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Jbos__well its kind of slow :) just played the day aorund with virtual box and tired to get meego running in it16:41
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timeless_w7ipvlj/lcuk: iirc you can install XPMode on w7x6416:42
timeless_w7ipXP mode is 32bit16:42
Jbos__seem not to like my ati card16:42
timeless_w7ipso your 16bit app will run in XP mode16:42
timeless_w7ipon your 64bit w7 :)16:42
Jbos__timeless_w7ip yea just in ultimate super edition16:42
timeless_w7ipWindows XP mode is available free of charge to users of Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate.[22]16:43
timeless_w7ipso all you need to do is upgrade-anytime to professional16:43
Jbos__ye me is home premium juser16:43
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Jbos__and give ms money nay16:44
Jbos__i use linux, there stuff works16:44
timeless_w7iphttp://windowsteamblog.com/windows/archive/b/windows7/archive/2009/07/31/windows-anytime-upgrade-and-family-pack-pricing.aspx16:44
Jbos__just do this for playing around16:44
timeless_w7ipWindows 7 Home Premium to Windows 7 Professional: $89.9916:44
timeless_w7iplinux.. works.. very funny.. very funny16:45
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thiago_homevlj: pong16:45
Jbos__at least i can make it work without paycheck :D16:45
ali1234seems i was missinformed, it's real mode and hardware real mode emulation that doesn't work in 64 bit mode16:46
timeless_w7ipyeah16:46
timeless_w7ipthat's different16:46
timeless_w7ipms basically chose the 64bit os as the chance to finally mostly drop support for *ancient* legacy crufy16:46
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timeless_w7ips/fy/ft/16:46
infobottimeless_w7ip meant: ms basically chose the 64bit os as the chance to finally mostly drop support for *ancient* legacy cruft16:46
ali1234not MS, it is still a CPU limitation16:47
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timeless_w7ipjbos: the simplest comparison i can think of is linux support for libc516:51
timeless_w7ipwhich was more or less removed somewhere around 2000?16:52
timeless_w7ipand is a royal pain to deal w/ today16:52
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thiago_homelibc5?16:52
thiago_homewell, could be worse: libc4, which was a.out16:53
timeless_w7ipthe kernel claims to support a.out :)16:53
timeless_w7ipanyway, point being that ms is dropping support for something from say um, i dunno 1990?16:53
ali1234nobody ever said it was a bad thing to remove 16 bit support :)16:54
timeless_w7ipthey kept it around for roughly 20 years16:55
timeless_w7ipand you can still have it today in w7 if you want it16:55
timeless_w7ip(through xp mode)16:55
timeless_w7ipwhereas, in general, forget trying to get libc5 working on linux16:55
timeless_w7ipms's compatibilty story is so much better than linux16:56
ali1234yes16:56
ali1234in theory you don't need backwards compatibility when the source is available16:57
timeless_w7iplibc5 dates to say '9616:57
ali1234(in theory)16:57
lcukn901timeless visicalc binary is from 198116:57
timeless_w7ipand it was already problematic by ''0616:57
timeless_w7iplcuk: yeah, i know16:57
lcukn901that was afaik the same year the zx spectrum showed on bootup16:57
lcukn901for real comparison16:58
thiago_homelibc5 was the first ELF libc16:58
timeless_w7iplinux wasn't born then16:58
timeless_w7ipheck, GNU didn't exist until 8316:58
thiago_homejust be glad libc6 hasn't had to break BC16:58
timeless_w7ipthiago: every now and then i hit binaries i can't use because of strange linker features16:59
timeless_w7iptrying to deal w/ them is *no* fun16:59
timeless_w7ipi keep running into a hack for distributed.net or the other one16:59
thiago_homereally?17:02
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* thiago_home hasn't had a binary problem in ages17:02
timeless_w7ipyeah17:02
thiago_homeand 99% of the cases is that I don't have libc/libstdc++ new enough17:03
timeless_w7ipthe last tiime i hit it was trying to run a meego rootstrap on another system17:03
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timeless_w7ipright17:03
thiago_homesince I'm running a rolling-updates distro, that happens almost never17:03
timeless_w7ipbut i'm not root17:03
timeless_w7ipi run on other people's systems17:03
timeless_w7ipand their kernels + libcs are much older than a meego rootstrap17:03
timeless_w7ip=> hell17:03
lcukn901for all the messing, if you played them right, activex did manage compatability quite well :$17:03
* timeless_w7ip nods17:04
timeless_w7ipthe problem w/ activex was its support for web pages17:04
lcukn901even the ide helped17:04
lcukn901yeah17:04
timeless_w7ipwhich was basically "let web pages trick users"17:04
* lcukn901 nods17:04
timeless_w7ipnow that activex is dead, java fills the same position in the ecosystem17:04
timeless_w7ip[see 2010]17:04
thiago_homethat's why we have LSB17:05
* lcukn901 has not lookd since17:05
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thiago_homemeego could stick to the LSB for producing binaries17:05
thiago_homewe don't17:05
timeless_w7ipthiago: what would that do?17:05
thiago_homein practice, it suffices to stick to the latest Debian. It's old enough to run on any current distro.17:05
lcukn901the last stuff I was looking at was the .net GAC and it made many people weep17:05
timeless_w7iplcuk: i remember that from 200417:05
timeless_w7ipgac was mildly icky17:06
lcukn901yeah it continued to be a problem all along17:06
timeless_w7ipSxS is better17:06
lcukn901it got worse as more versions of .net were added17:06
timeless_w7ipunless you don't have disk space17:06
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Venemolcukn901: what's wrong with the GAC?17:16
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lcukn901venemo, what is right with it?17:17
Venemolcukn901: well, afaik its purpose is to cache frequently used .NET assemblies, and afaik it does its job well.17:18
lcukn901venemo, have you ever needed to add/manage/support/update assemblies in the gac?17:19
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thiago_homeit would be so much simpler if MS understood the concept of binary compatibility17:19
thiago_homeit's very hard to maintain it in a library if MS doesn't maintain it in theirs17:19
lcukn901ms do.17:19
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lcukn901as noted from msdos apps from 1980s17:20
thiago_homelcukn901: their understanding of it is "don't update"17:20
thiago_homenot for C++17:20
Venemolcukn901, there's gacutil for that. although it has been some time since I last bothered with .NET17:20
thiago_homethe Win32 API is the same, but the C++ assembly changes with every single version of their compiler17:20
thiago_homeincluding updates to the compiler17:20
lcukn901well that is c++s fault really, not microsofts17:20
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thiago_homenot really17:20
thiago_homegcc manages to maintain the compatibility17:20
timeless_w7ipGCC did break it17:21
thiago_homewe've been compatible for 7 releases of gcc, including one major (4.0)17:21
timeless_w7ipat least once17:21
lcukn901an api == set of entry points to a library performing a distinct set of operations17:21
timeless_w7ipit also managed to totally botch sizeof empty_struct17:21
thiago_homesizeof(empty_struct) = 117:21
lcukn901if you retain those entry points and functional integrity within, you have backwards compatability17:21
timeless_w7ipthiago: iirc it differs between C and C++17:21
thiago_homeyes17:22
thiago_homebut that's the C++ standard saying something17:22
Venemolcukn901: that's enough for .net, but not for C/C++17:22
thiago_homelcukn901: that's just the API compatibility (also called "source compatibility")17:22
ali1234gotta love COM too, "i know, let's just cat every version of the library together, and let the programs say which version they want at runtime"17:22
lcukn901venemo, api definition is c derived17:22
lcukn901well asm derived17:22
thiago_homelcukn901: the binary compatibility depends on the ABI too17:22
lcukn901when i learnt it17:22
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Venemolcukn901: what you listed is enough for API compatibility, and binary compatiblity in .NET, but not for binary compatibility in native C/C++ apps17:23
timeless_w7ipthiago: there are multiple compiler vendors for windows17:23
timeless_w7ipthey all are capable of honoring the windows ABI for C methods17:23
timeless_w7ipbut they're all free to do whatever they like for c++17:23
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thiago_homeall major compilers agree on C ABI stability17:24
timeless_w7ipthis has always been true17:24
timeless_w7ipwell17:24
lcukn901veneno see what thiago just said c is stable17:24
thiago_homethey do that because most OS's base API is done in C, so the compiler needs to have ABI compatibility with the base libraries17:24
timeless_w7ipmingw is more or less not a major compiler i suppose17:24
timeless_w7ipsince it manages to get abi wrong17:24
lcukn901to the degree needed api and abi wise17:24
ali1234you say "the windows ABI for C methods" as if there is just one...17:24
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thiago_homeali1234: per OS17:24
timeless_w7ipali: technically there are at least 317:24
timeless_w7ip(w16, w32, w64)17:25
thiago_homeit doesn't have to be the same in different OS or architectures17:25
timeless_w7ip(not counting architectures)17:25
ali1234it's not even the same in all windows technologies17:25
timeless_w7ipok, enough about C*17:25
thiago_home16-bit Windows is definitely different from 32-bit17:25
timeless_w7ipsomeone want to help me w/ python?17:25
lcukn901with c++ it seems the abi breaks based on wind spee17:25
lcukn901d17:25
thiago_homelcukn901: like I said, gcc has managed to be fairly stable for a long time17:26
timeless_w7iplcuk: fragile base class :)17:26
lcukn901:)17:26
lcukn901am I right, you can give c++ apps a stable c API frontend to class sets?17:28
thiago_homelcukn901: what do you mean?17:28
lcukn901for instance a really solid 12idget api17:28
lcukn901QWidget17:28
thiago_homelcukn901: you want to create a C API wrapping a C++ one?17:28
lcukn901yeah thiago17:29
thiago_homeyou can do it, yes17:29
thiago_homeyou can even automate it17:29
lcukn901first version by hand though. :p17:29
lcukn901automate later lol17:30
timeless_w7iplcuk: ms has something for this, MSCOM includes a C layer17:30
lcukn901timeless yeah it was something i keep thinking of for within liqbase, it compiles with g++ and has c api, but can include c++ classes within17:31
* lcukn901 thanks w00t for running over entire library adding c++ guards17:31
* lcukn901 added a few in different places before but he went round and actuslly did the compiler changing bitd17:33
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lcukn901interesting:17:37
lcukn901http://slashdot.org/story/11/02/27/133228/Microsoft-Rewarding-Employees-Who-Phone-It-In17:37
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ali1234this is just another way of admitting that the only people who care about WP7 are being paid by microsoft17:38
* thiago_home thinks about it for a second, then agrees17:39
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timeless_w7ipali: not true17:39
timeless_w7ipsome will be paid by nokia!17:39
thiago_hometimeless_w7ip: but since nokia might be paid by microsoft... (rumours)17:39
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ali1234well, yeah, that's what i was implying :)17:40
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ali1234i bet they will heavily pressure employees to do it as well17:42
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ali1234"oh, you;ve only made 3 WP7 apps? bob made 14. don't you like working here?"17:42
* lcukn901 creates over 4000 vb test projects in 10 years17:44
lcukn901created *17:44
* lcukn901 has a list of about 80 which had more than a few minutes17:45
Venemolcukn901: :)17:47
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Ans5ii wrote basic with my msx. is that same thing..17:49
Ans5iwhen i was not playing maze o gallious17:50
Ans5iofc17:50
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brickshi. new built packages of the kde project aren't uploaded to the repository. is there any general problem with the public meego obs?17:50
lcukn901oops mistype 3000ish (2740 exact from my tweet)17:51
Stskeepsbricks: check "status" for publisher17:53
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Stskeepsmorn sofar17:54
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bricksStskeeps: where can i find the status?17:55
Stskeepsbricks: front page17:57
Stskeepsclick "status"17:57
bricksdo you mean the publisher?17:57
bricksit only says it's running17:57
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lcukn901morning dawn \o17:59
DawnFoster1hey lcukn90117:59
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smokuHow am I supposed to package application plugins in MeeGo?18:02
smokuexample-desktop-widget.i586: E: devel-file-in-non-devel-package (Badness: 50) /usr/lib/hildon-desktop/libexample-clock-desktop-widget.so18:02
smokuit's not a devel file18:02
thiago_homeif you remove the "lib", it might recognise as a plugin18:02
lcukn901how well do community apps run on the intel tablet edition?  I have thusfar only seen the built in panel ux18:03
Stskeepsbricks: hm18:04
Stskeepsbricks: mail to meego-it@meego.com then18:04
bricksjust saw another person who did complain about the same problem on the meego list18:04
bricksStskeeps: thanks18:04
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vljhi19:01
vljab: ping19:01
vljthiago_home: ping19:01
vljI have an issue19:01
vljI cannot call "setPixel" concurrently on a QImage =(19:01
thiago_homevlj: pong again19:02
thiago_homeconcurrently?19:02
thiago_homebtw, Qt questions you can ask in #qt19:02
vljthiran: yep I'm using qtconcurrent::blockingMap19:03
vljthat calls a image.setPixel19:03
thiago_homeon the same image?19:03
vljyep19:03
vljbut on different pixel19:03
thiago_homehmm19:03
vljsetPixel should be threadsafe19:04
thiago_homeif the docs say it is, then it is19:05
thiago_homeotherwise, it isn't19:05
thiago_homeit doesn't say it is, so I don't recommend doing what you're doing19:06
vlj:p19:06
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thiago_homenow, looking at the source code, it looks like it should work, provided the image is not shared with anything.19:07
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vljthis is quite odd19:08
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thiago_homewhy?19:10
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vljthiago_home: it works using the bits function19:22
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thiago_homegood19:22
vljit would be more coherent if setPixel() was threadsafe too ..19:22
lcukn902vlj if you had to set a semaphore lock each and every time you called setpixel it would slow it down muchly, is there not general bitmap/memory locks available?19:24
lcukn902ie lock whole surface, do all writes, unlock19:24
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timeless_xchathttp://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/latest/repos/oss/armv7l/debug/19:36
timeless_xchatstskeeps: so, interesting, but not usable19:36
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timeless_xchatit's missing .idl and anything that isn't .h/.c/.cpp19:37
timeless_xchatso it wouldn't show build scripts, makefile(.in|.ac)19:38
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Stskeepsandre3003: "3003"? are you cloning yourself? ;)19:57
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andre__Stskeeps: no, more like "andre__ :Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable"...19:58
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Stskeepshehe19:58
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Stskeeps<3 freenode :P19:58
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lcukn902Mego stlye action figures: Batman and Robin!!   http://www.flickr.com/photos/leandro-egon/3611176632/21:48
lcukn902s/stlye/style/21:48
infobotlcukn902 meant: Mego style action figures: Batman and Robin!!   http://www.flickr.com/photos/leandro-egon/3611176632/21:48
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lcukn902KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!    http://trekmovie.com/2008/02/05/the-collective-khant-wait-for-dsts-new-mego-style-figure/21:51
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smokudoh... how do I change the gtk+ theme on meego? :/22:23
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befordsmoku, I believe gnome-appearence is included22:27
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smokuit is. thanks22:27
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RST38hmoo smoku22:28
smoku?22:28
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fslhttp://trekmovie.com/2008/02/0522:41
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lcukn902fsl do you like the mego characters then?22:43
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smokuhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG40LvV9A4 - a bit of cordia progress23:08
* Stskeeps looks23:09
Stskeepsah, just like mer back in the days .. :P23:10
Stskeepsexcept that it actually is fast23:11
Stskeeps;)23:11
ali1234lol23:11
ali1234what is cordia?23:11
Jaffaali1234: See the link in the video23:11
ali1234oh, ok23:12
ali1234fair enough then23:12
ali1234well, i for one, would use that23:12
* Jaffa didn't want to describe it as "Maemo 5 UI on MeeGo" in case that's off message ;-)23:12
ali1234"hildon on meego"23:12
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ali1234i didn't realise cordia was just that project, i thought it was some kind of tablet or something23:13
lcukn902one question: how does it run on n900 there are many things running well on ideapad since it has a metric shittonne more cpu power23:14
Jaffalcukn902: A metric shitton and a half, I believe.23:14
lcukn902yeah23:14
ali1234probably about the same as... maemo 5?23:14
vgraderunning on Joggler, less HP than ideapad, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtlBLXhg-YE&feature=related23:15
lcukn902well since the n900 is running at max 500 mhz that might not be true23:15
Jaffasmoku: How far down the Maemo stack are you going? Just Hildon(-desktop,-home,lib) or down to the lower level osso stuff/e.g. ossoabook etc.23:15
lcukn902and different supposedly slower filesystem23:15
lcukn902etc23:15
lcukn902there are many things impacting performance that need heavily bashing out23:15
Jaffaali1234: Well, depends how much the (still relatively unoptimised?) MeeGo core gets in the way.23:16
lcukn902bug 1383323:16
ali1234right, so "speed of N900" as an upper limit :)23:17
MeeGoBotBug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13833 nor, Undecided, ---, yong.y.wang, NEW, [FEA] N900 operating at 500mhz, 16% slower than Maemo23:17
ali1234"speed of maemo 5"23:17
Jaffaali1234: Depends how much better MeeGo Core could be optimised than the crufty N900 ;-)23:17
lcukn902thought it might respond faster technical23:17
lcukn902technically rather23:17
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smokuJaffa, far. unless there is already a subsystem doing the same in meego. (I already have osso and skeleton dsme support)23:20
Jaffasmoku: So, theoretically, a lot of Maemo 5 apps could run - at most with a recompile?23:20
smokuJaffa, that's the goal.  they may need a bit of "dehildonizing" since we use stock GTK+23:21
* Jaffa nods.23:21
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* Jaffa puts that in MWKN alongside the videos.23:22
semismoku: what's in the skeleton dsme?23:22
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smokusemi, I started replacing all BME calls with DSME equivalents (if there is one). so far I identified BME requirements and I'm digging DSME sources to get a grasp :)23:27
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befordsmoku, nice video23:28
semismoku, please let me know if I can help with dsme. I have a bit of background with it.23:28
smokusemi, AUTHORS hinted me ;-)23:29
lcukn902smoku i notice the ideapad touch sensitivity caught you too23:29
lcukn902lists that do things on click (applist) accidentally launching when you want to scroll23:29
smokulcukn902, yes. it's so good that it sometimes goes in the way :)23:30
lcukn902smoku it does not help that the ideapad screen moves back a bit when you touch it23:30
lcukn902'bouncy'23:30
smokulcukn902, I'm actually only swiping the screen (so it does not bounce all the time) and it sometimes registers "finger up" ;-)23:31
smokuyes. exactly23:31
smokuthe "tablet "mode" helps. but i wanted to show a bit of keyboard ;-)23:32
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lcukn902smoku yeah i see.  any touchscreen outside lab conditions have same lol23:32
lcukn902i recall on the n810 explicitly coding this away on graffiti wall by making clicks only do select rather than select+open23:33
ali1234if the ideapad screen moves when you touch it, you're pressing too hard23:33
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ali1234either that or you need to completely disassemble it and rebuild it properly, like i did23:33
lcukn902ali1234 when you are panning a list you wibble it inside23:34
smokuali1234, at the top the moment of force is so big, that barely touching couses a bounce :)23:35
* lcukn902 still terribly dislikes close buttons at top right23:36
lcukn902thankfully, in some ui escape key is close enough to bottom corner23:36
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TomaszDhaving too much fun Stskeeps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwxdkiqefns :P23:54
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