IRC log of #meego for Tuesday, 2011-01-04

Stskeeps	dm8tbr: so, some things back to you to think about: a hardware adaptation is basically about succesfully implementing a number of adaptation interfaces, testing your resulting image and following up on platform progress and having one or more people responsible for implementing and fixing incoming bugs	00:00
Stskeeps	within that, you usually need a obs project for the adaptation and a repository, as well as automatically built images tracking release process	00:01
Stskeeps	automatic testing ability of course helps ;)	00:02
dm8tbr	first you need to get your device to boot things, then you need EGL...	00:02
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Stskeeps	yeah, it's an iterative process	00:02
dm8tbr	it's the small things that stop community adaptations	00:02
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dm8tbr	'implementing a number of adaptation interfaces' is to me managerese for 'somewhen if the adaptation ever gets far enough'	00:03
Stskeeps	well, even new products start out at 0%	00:04
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dm8tbr	and sure, if MeeGo offers to pay for setting up and maintaining OTS for community adaptations	00:06
Venemo	Stskeeps: actually usable kernel sources would help too	00:07
Stskeeps	i kinda hope we see easily installable test runners, it's needed a lot in software devel	00:07
Stskeeps	and porting	00:07
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dm8tbr	Stskeeps: btw if you are wiki admin, this page could use renaming ;) http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Infrastructure/BOSS_Testing/BOSS_Tesing_OTS	00:12
Stskeeps	i'm not	00:12
CosmoHill	I was about to jump on you if you were	00:13
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Stskeeps	bbl sleep	00:14
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CosmoHill	bye Stskeeps, hello DawnFoster	00:16
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DawnFoster	hey CosmoHill	00:21
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thiago	DawnFoster: hi Dawn, coming to Portland again. But I can't bring Norwegian chocolate this time...	00:22
DawnFoster	thiago: ha! would still be good to see you :)	00:22
DawnFoster	thiago: do you know when you'll be here?	00:22
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thiago	DawnFoster: arrive on Jan 12	00:27
thiago	leave on 14	00:27
DawnFoster	thiago: we have Portland werewolf games on the 12th :)	00:27
thiago	cool	00:27
DawnFoster	if you are interested	00:27
thiago	but I probably arrive too late	00:27
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DawnFoster	thiago: will you be at intel on the 13th & 14th?	00:28
thiago	yes	00:28
DawnFoster	cool.	00:28
* thiago is making a round-about way to get home to Oslo		00:30
thiago	<--- in Brazil right now	00:30
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thiago	going to Portland via Las Vegas and San Francisco	00:31
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* CosmoHill gets the duct tape		00:37
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DawnFoster	thiago: sounds like quite a trip!	00:38
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thiago	with a stop in Miami on the way over and Munich on the way to Oslo	00:39
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CosmoHill	I was once told I should go to the university of Munich	00:39
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DawnFoster	CosmoHill: quick question about that FAQ page you created in the wiki	01:06
CosmoHill	yes	01:06
DawnFoster	I actually have a main FAQ here: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_FAQ	01:06
CosmoHill	I had noticed that after I created my FAQ	01:07
DawnFoster	we need to merge the content onto the main page somehow	01:07
CosmoHill	i think mine has a narrower focus on the distro itself rather than the project as a whole	01:08
DawnFoster	Ah ok, so we need to rename it	01:08
CosmoHill	that would make sense	01:10
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CosmoHill	DawnFoster: would you mind if we sorted this out another day? I'm pretty tired at the moment	01:12
DawnFoster	I moved it here for now	01:12
DawnFoster	http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Distribution_Frequently_Asked_Questions	01:12
DawnFoster	we can make more changes later	01:12
DawnFoster	when you're awake :)	01:13
CosmoHill	and to think that yeesterday it was only 3 characters	01:13
DawnFoster	it's great stuff!	01:14
DawnFoster	thanks for doing it!	01:14
CosmoHill	you're welcome :)	01:14
CosmoHill	I'll add a section about HTC phones later	01:14
CosmoHill	the orginal one was meant to be a bit of a joke with the answer to all questions being "no"	01:14
DawnFoster	ha!	01:14
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DawnFoster	funny how things spiral out of control that way :)	01:14
CosmoHill	one of them would be "yes" followed by "Really? No"	01:15
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CosmoHill	maybe after my exam I'll look over them and see if I can improve my answers / english	01:15
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DawnFoster	good luck on your exam	01:18
CosmoHill	merci	01:18
CosmoHill	I think if I spell most of the words phonetically I'll be alright	01:20
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maurice	list	01:23
CosmoHill	go away, this isn't an anime channel	01:23
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mortenmj	ping lbt_away	02:03
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CosmoHill	cyas	02:40
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zjblabs	When will I be able to buy a meego phone? One of those Atom phones I've been hearing about?	02:53
zjblabs	The Aava didn't have a "buy now" link anywere, as far as I had seen	02:54
wmarone	who knows	02:54
wmarone	the aava is a devkit, and costs ~$2k USD	02:54
zjblabs	Wow	02:54
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mwichmann	pretty astonishing price, isn't it?	02:54
zjblabs	Indeed	02:54
wmarone	eh, the Zoom-II cost $1.2K, I'm sure the Blaze platform cost around that as well	02:55
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wmarone	devkits are low volume runs with lots of extra stufff	02:55
mwichmann	sure, all that is clear	02:56
zjblabs	Will those Atom phones boot from microsd?	02:56
zjblabs	I think that'd be pretty cool	02:56
mwichmann	it depends on what you want with a devkit - if it's to entice developers for something high volume later, you price them cheap rather than price recovery	02:57
mwichmann	aava is a somewhat different story, don't know the others mentioned	02:57
wmarone	sure, but that's if the vendor is releasing the devkit	02:57
wmarone	like say, TI and their subsidization of the Pandaboard	02:57
zjblabs	I could have sworn I had read that meego was using libzypp; does this mean that meego will use "real" repositories to update itself, for example, like any other desktop linux distribution (in contrast with that Android abomination, for example)	02:58
mwichmann	not sure what that means, answer sounds like yes	02:59
wmarone	that is the idea	02:59
mwichmann	but.... who knows what happens when it's releases as a phone for example	02:59
zjblabs	Sounds awesome.	02:59
mwichmann	vendor may choose to do OTA update of whole blob, rather than pkgs from repo	02:59
zjblabs	Sounds ugly	03:00
wmarone	handset vendors tend to be ugly	03:00
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wmarone	carriers too	03:00
mortenmj	any obs experts in the hizzouse?	03:01
zjblabs	Why not have vendors/carriers create their own repositories?	03:01
wmarone	zjblabs: well, the goal would be for them to do that	03:02
wmarone	how willing to do so they would be is up in the air	03:02
zjblabs	I ask all this because I have a SGS and absolutely hate it (and android in general) and I was hoping to get something much more sensible: meego sounds much more attractive	03:03
zjblabs	would it be too terribly difficult run x86 applications create for desktop linuxes?	03:04
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zjblabs	Or, I suppose, how "crippled" is meego from what you'd expect in any other distribution?	03:05
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wmarone	zjblabs: meego is not supposed to be crippled	03:05
zjblabs	Sweet	03:06
wmarone	though by default the libraries for some applications will not be available outside the "surrounds" and "extras" repositories	03:06
zjblabs	I did hear, though, that Java ME was being used, is this correct?	03:06
wmarone	and access to those will hinge upon how friendly your handset vendor/carrier are	03:06
wmarone	don't recall that, I don't believe Java is part of the MeeGo spec	03:06
zjblabs	Wait, so I wouldn't be able to just add any repository I wanted?	03:07
wmarone	if the carrier/vendor says no, then you can't	03:07
wmarone	so buy carefully, is all I can say	03:07
zjblabs	that sounds odd that I wouldn't be able to just zypper ar [repo]	03:08
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mwichmann	java isn't part of the meego.com picture, fwiw	03:08
zjblabs	mwichmann: ok.	03:08
mwichmann	the base app technology here is qt instead	03:08
ali1234	zjblabs: you can't do that on any distro if you don't have root and your homedir is mounted noexec...	03:08
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wmarone	zjblabs: well, by default MeeGo can. Vendors/carriers may forcibly disable it though, like AT&T and the Android handsets.	03:08
zjblabs	Would meego be as vulnerable to rooting techniques like those used on android phones?	03:09
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wmarone	possibly, I haven't looked at the rooting techniques used on Android	03:10
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wmarone	that said, vendors seem to be getting more agressive with the signature checking	03:11
zjblabs	Heh, the AT&T SGS had none whatsoever; it was trivial to root it	03:12
wmarone	sure	03:12
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wmarone	however, and I'm not sure how factual it is, there was a report on xda-developers that samsung was pushing out a Galaxy Tab update that updated the bootloader to check the kernel signature	03:13
wmarone	and while that doesn't prevent rooting, it cripples the device long term	03:13
wmarone	assuming they don't sign -more-	03:13
wmarone	I also don't agree with having to root a device ;)	03:14
zjblabs	Indeed. Why does it make sense to purposly cripple phones like that?	03:15
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zjblabs	What makes them so much different than any other piece of hardware?	03:15
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wmarone	nothing, really.	03:15
ali1234	they're connected to a network that is known to be very insecure	03:16
wmarone	ali1234: not at all	03:16
zjblabs	I mean, you don't see anyone needing to root their linux netbook, do you?	03:16
wmarone	it's all about enforcing dependence, planned obsolencence, and routing you through their app stores	03:16
wmarone	really	03:16
ali1234	that too	03:17
ali1234	don't underestimate paranoia about phone call interception though	03:17
wmarone	and that's all in the GSM stack, not in the mobile OS	03:17
wmarone	gsm/cdma/whatever	03:18
ali1234	right, and what is stopping you from changing the GSM stack? usually only the operating system	03:18
wmarone	generally the GSM stack is signed from top to bottom	03:18
wmarone	at least that was my impression, I wonder if that's changed	03:19
wmarone	but if anything, they'd be more worried about unlocks than call interception	03:19
ali1234	some researchers recently demo'd interception of phone calls using just a cheap motorola phone with modded radio firmware	03:20
wmarone	since you can do that with a $15 phone these days	03:20
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zjblabs	But that still doesn't make sense: you don't seen windows computers being forced to go through an "app store" and users running with restricted priveledges right out of the box	03:20
ali1234	zjblabs: don't you? well, you will this year	03:20
wmarone	zjblabs: my impression is that if they could enforce that now, they absolutely would	03:21
zjblabs	Really?	03:21
wmarone	well, the stores will come	03:21
wmarone	restricting software to those avenues will be a harder sell	03:21
zjblabs	That's insane	03:21
ali1234	everyone and their granny has an app store now	03:21
wmarone	the stores are actually a decent idea	03:21
ali1234	now all they need to do is figure out how to force people to use them	03:21
wmarone	I have no problem with that kind of software delivery and sales	03:22
wmarone	but yeah, it's the -forced- aspect I don't like	03:22
zjblabs	Indeed	03:22
zjblabs	Or even computers/phones coming pre-loaded with the stores	03:22
wmarone	well, coming pre-loaded is ok too	03:23
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ali1234	i've been saying for a while that PCs are on the way out... everyone wants tablets, phones, connected devices now	03:24
ali1234	they way "most" people use PCs... it is not worth having one	03:24
ali1234	too much maintenance is required	03:24
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smoku	oh yes. writing a book on a tablet is pure joy. or a sales presentation on a phone...	03:25
juvuolle-l	does anyone know if/how its possible to access GPS on meego running on n900?	03:25
ali1234	most people only go on facebook, youtube, and amazon	03:25
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berndhs	many many people write, and if its only short blog entries	03:26
berndhs	you can't do that on a phone	03:26
zjblabs	wmarone: but would you think, for example, [insert-computer-manufacturer-here] would build computers with a boot order that doesn't include external devices, and an to lock changing boot order and then possibly do signature checking on the hard drive?	03:26
ali1234	berndhs: trillions of SMS messages says you;re wrong	03:27
wmarone	zjblabs: possibly, if it served their purposes	03:27
berndhs	not as trivial as SMS messages :)	03:27
berndhs	and yes, SMS messages are trivial	03:27
smoku	zjblabs, aren't intel secure computing extensions designed to accomplish exactly that?	03:27
zjblabs	oh, shit...	03:28
wmarone	and as for keyboards/monitors/projectors, docks with HDMI and built in bluetooth could take care of that	03:28
ali1234	zjblabs: IBM laptops can be configured to do that	03:28
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berndhs	wmarone: now there is something, why do mobile computers need their own display ? use bigger stationary displays	03:28
zjblabs	Yeah, I had an old IBM desktop that did that partially (but you were allowed to continue, if you wanted)	03:28
wmarone	berndhs: I think that's the goal for A9 devices, support for multiple displays of multiple sizes	03:29
wmarone	so I can use the small screen on the go, but put it in a dock for my big screen at home	03:29
ali1234	zjblabs: but the thing is that the target audience of PCs is different to the target for mobiles and tablets and such	03:30
berndhs	right, but the target audience for desktops is at least 1 billion people, and the audiences overlap	03:30
ali1234	in 2000 microsoft made loads of money by convincing the latter market that they wanted a PC, but it turns out they really didn't	03:31
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ali1234	they actually wanted an iphone	03:31
ali1234	the end result was a mess of viruses and spam and botnets from people who didn't know how to look after a PC	03:31
berndhs	thats what the phone people say :)	03:31
berndhs	every student needs a computer, not a phone	03:32
berndhs	every office worked needs a computer at work	03:32
ali1234	because a computer is a tool	03:32
zjblabs	Why can't a phone be one too?	03:33
ali1234	it can, but most people don't want it to be	03:33
ali1234	because you have to look after tools, or else you'll hurt yourself with them	03:33
berndhs	people will hur tthemselves jsut as much with phones	03:33
ali1234	the reality does not really support that conclusion	03:34
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berndhs	if you use your phone as ID to get to your bank account, you're in trouble real easy	03:34
berndhs	smart phones haven't really started yet	03:34
ali1234	i never heard of anyone who lost their CC details to a keylogger on a phone	03:34
berndhs	you don't need key loggers on a phone, you steal the whole thing	03:35
ali1234	where as you basically expect it if you use some random windows machine	03:35
berndhs	much easier	03:35
berndhs	no point breaking into a phone, just take it	03:35
ali1234	oh you steal an iphone? and it's remote wiped before you can even fence it...	03:35
berndhs	no its not, the user doesn't know its stolen until hours later	03:35
berndhs	by that time the bad guys have your bank account	03:36
ali1234	hours is nowhere near long enough	03:36
berndhs	sure it is when professionals start doing this	03:36
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berndhs	and when more clueless users ahve smart phones	03:36
ali1234	in any case you assume that there is some way to save the password for your bank account on the phone or something stupid like that	03:37
berndhs	it doesnt make sense to defend phones like desktops, or to assume they are safer	03:37
ali1234	or the user has a post-it stuck on their phone with the details	03:38
berndhs	yes i'm assuming that the industry is doing that already :)	03:38
berndhs	and i'm assuming that users are as smart with their phone passwords as with the rest of them :)	03:38
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ali1234	it's still at least an order of magnitude harder for the crooks	03:39
berndhs	no its not	03:39
ali1234	they have to steal the phone without you noticing and somehow unlock it before you remote wipe it	03:39
berndhs	not every phone, just enough of them to make good money	03:40
berndhs	if it fails with 9 out of 10 phones, so what	03:40
berndhs	they're not after your bank account, just after enough to make a decent living	03:40
ali1234	well the problem is that you have to go and steal a phone for a 1/10 chance of getting a working CC	03:40
berndhs	why is that a problem ?	03:41
ali1234	vs keyloggers where you sit and do nothing all day and get hundreds of CCs	03:41
hlzxy	anybody can tell me how to manage meego source code? use obs? or git? od these two have any contact？	03:41
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berndhs	slightly different brand of criminals	03:41
ali1234	exactly, that's the point	03:41
berndhs	but the take is just as big	03:41
ali1234	the average phone thief is not going to be any more technically adept than the person they robbed	03:41
berndhs	you're presenting it as if phones are safer, and I'm saying they aren't	03:41
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berndhs	they thief and the guy getting the money are not the same	03:42
berndhs	get a bunch of kids to take phones in shopping centers	03:42
ali1234	hlzxy: you need both git and obs, they do rather different things... although there is some overlap	03:42
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ali1234	git for your source, obs for your packaging	03:43
ali1234	berndhs: the take will not be worth it, and you are exponentially more likely to get caught	03:43
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berndhs	study math before using "exponentially" :)	03:44
ali1234	i'm not saying phones are bullet proof, just more secure than the average PC	03:44
hlzxy	ali1234:souce code from git used to create package?	03:44
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berndhs	i'm saying phones have different security holes, and people are ignoring them - this will bite them	03:45
ali1234	hlzxy: you have to make a release from git (as a tarball or something) and then put that into obs	03:45
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ali1234	berndhs: the biggest security hole is always the user	03:46
berndhs	right	03:46
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ali1234	PCs do absolutely nothing to prevent the user from doing stupid things	03:46
hlzxy	ali1234:but some of them don't contain the spec file ,how can it put into obs?	03:46
berndhs	niehter do phones, people will just leave them, dont even have to steal the things	03:46
ali1234	hlzxy: you have to write a spec file for it	03:46
ali1234	but phones do prevent the user from doing a lot of dumb things... for example installing random executables from the internet	03:47
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berndhs	right, the threat vector is differnt	03:47
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berndhs	but assuming that because some types of threats are lessened, that the whole thing is safer, that's risky	03:48
ali1234	any vector that exists for a phone also exists for a PC, but the reverse is not true	03:48
ali1234	therefore a phone is more secure	03:48
berndhs	yes the reverse is true, it is much easier to walk away with a phoen than a PC	03:49
ali1234	unless the PC is a netbook	03:49
berndhs	oh sure, lets make the phone bigger :)	03:49
berndhs	no, it is important to consider the threats, not believe some marketing hype about safety	03:50
andyross	Wait, what? You can't do analysis like that. And it's not even true. PC's don't often ship with automatic OTA firmware updates enabled, for example. Exploit that and you can hack any phone.	03:50
ali1234	windows update?	03:50
berndhs	i'm not trying to do complete coverage, just saying this has to be taken seriously	03:50
ali1234	it's like OTA, except over an untrusted network, and so much easier to exploit	03:50
ali1234	still damn near impossible though, unless you can break the crypto like they just did on PS3	03:52
berndhs	right, that shows its almost impossible, that they just did it :)	03:52
andyross	Semantics: The PS3 hack wasn't a crypto break, it was a reverse engineering effort of a bad protocol.	03:52
ali1234	an encryption protocol	03:52
hlzxy	ali1234: it seems difficult	03:53
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MohammadAG	a retarded protocol	03:54
ali1234	berndhs: how long did it take to crack the PS3? how often do people get a new phone?	03:55
lcuk	bug 10532	03:55
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10532 nor, High, ---, vivian.zhang, NEW, No audio input from microphone on meegoconf netbook	03:55
berndhs	ali1234: look, the point is that the network threat vectors aren't the only ones	03:56
berndhs	and if you get a new mass market of these devices, you will get new threats and new opportunities for crooks	03:57
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Mek	hmm, seems the community obs is not publishing packages it builds or something... packages that where built 10 or so hours ago are still not available in a repository (in fact the entire repository they should end up in is still a 404)	06:04
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Termana	morning	07:23
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Hikon	Hi	07:32
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clippy	sups?	07:38
clippy	is meego out yet?	07:38
Hikon	Idk	07:39
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Hikon	Hi	07:41
clippy	hi	07:42
dm8tbr	clippy: what does 'out' mean to you?	07:43
Hikon	Weird question	07:44
clippy	remember when we all thought ricky martin was gay, then he wasnt for a while, then finally about a decade later he came out... kinda like that, but in Internet time	07:44
dm8tbr	ok, feeding time is over.	07:45
iekku	eeh	07:45
Hikon	Hi	07:46
clippy	hi	07:46
Hikon	...	07:47
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Hikon	.....	07:52
clippy	....	07:52
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Hikon	So	07:52
clippy	Soudesuka	07:53
Hikon	Uhhhhhhhhh	07:53
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Hikon	.…………	07:54
iekku	what is happening in here?	07:55
clippy	don't have a UTF client here....	07:55
clippy	use telnet on cmd.exe on win xp	07:56
clippy	no good markups T.T	07:56
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clippy	ping and version wont work here...	07:58
Hikon	Wats dat	07:59
clippy	who dat	07:59
Hikon	Me	08:00
Hikon	.....	08:01
Hikon	Later	08:01
clippy	So meeego is out later?	08:01
Myrtti	what do you mean with "out"?	08:05
dm8tbr	Myrtti: don't feed the troll	08:05
Myrtti	there had been several versions of it for months...	08:05
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Myrtti	dm8tbr: but I'm bored waiting for my alarm to ring	08:06
dm8tbr	oh, ok nvm then :)	08:06
clippy	Myrtti, i had defined out previously as such	08:07
clippy	remember when we all thought ricky martin was gay, then he wasnt for a while, then finally about a decade later he came out... kinda like that, but in Internet time	08:07
Myrtti	right	08:07
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Myrtti	well, it's out in that sense too, I suppose	08:08
clippy	Thanks cool, looking forward to the CESpool this week in the home of the CESpool AKA vegas!	08:09
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clippy	Hey, did anyone look into whether the alarm clock worked on January 2nd mornign time?	08:21
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Mat_Matan	hi	08:32
clippy	hi	08:33
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* lcuk ponders reopening bug 10874 since araujo mentioned merely flipping the UX does not bring in the applications		10:30
lcuk	hmm bug 10874	10:30
lcuk	Stskeeps, bugbot missing?	10:31
Stskeeps	dunno	10:32
Sage	dm8tbr: ^	10:34
lcuk	hmm he dropped just over an hour ago	10:34
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slaine	Morning all, Happy New Year	10:50
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slaine	First day back, trying to remember how to use this computer thing	10:50
Stskeeps	you too, slaine	10:50
dm8tbr	sigh	10:51
slaine	Stskeeps: did you get a good break ?	10:51
Stskeeps	slaine: was decent, though next year spending it somewhere far away from family sounds like a good idea ;)	10:51
slaine	lol	10:52
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dm8tbr	MeeGoBot: botsnack!	10:58
* MeeGoBot beams		10:58
* dm8tbr has to move the storage directory to some place that doesn't fill up spontaneusly grmbl		10:59
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lcuk	dm8tbr, shouldn't the bot be operated from *.meego.com server?	11:00
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lcuk	in a similar manner to how timeless_mbp is thinking of operating mxr.meego.com I expect	11:00
Stskeeps	lcuk: we don't have a shell yet for any of those, so not yet	11:00
Stskeeps	lcuk: the idea in the long run is to, though	11:00
dm8tbr	what he says	11:01
timeless_mbp	lcuk: err	11:01
lcuk	cool Stskeeps	11:01
timeless_mbp	mxr is currently not properly hosted	11:01
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timeless_mbp	oh "thinking"	11:01
timeless_mbp	yes, that's correct	11:01
lcuk	timeless_mbp, I was on about your bug for requesting a VM from OSU (bug 11422)	11:01
dm8tbr	we're all thinking :)	11:01
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11422 nor, Undecided, ---, michael.r.shaver, NEW, allocate vm at OSU for mxr.meego.com	11:01
timeless_mbp	lcuk: lemme know when someone makes progress	11:01
timeless_mbp	grr	11:01
lcuk	wouldnt a similar bug for the irc bots be wise?	11:01
timeless_mbp	yeah	11:01
timeless_mbp	imo it's the right thing to do	11:02
timeless_mbp	but it shouldn't be a high priority, i want my box!	11:02
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lcuk	haha	11:02
jalemine	How to get access to build.meego.com?	11:02
odin_	morning all, good holidays?	11:02
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lcuk	hi odin_, different holidays for myself. how were yours?	11:03
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odin_	hi lcuk for me great, back with some 2011 plans, but 1000km drive back from the mountains does take a little recovery	11:07
lcuk	odin_, it most certainly does, which mountains were you in amongst?	11:08
odin_	lcuk, Switzerland/alps in a place called Alpex-des-Chaux	11:09
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odin_	somewhere around 1700m above sea level, above cloud under sun :)	11:10
lcuk	awesome, so were you practicing your yodeling, or more regular skiing/snowboarding?	11:10
odin_	regular skiing and visiting friends/drinking and doing nothing :)	11:11
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odin_	so what did I miss in the past 2 weeks?	11:14
odin_	hopefully lots of hacking on meego?	11:16
Stskeeps	it was christmas, so not really	11:17
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odin_	morning Stskeeps	11:18
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letic	hello guys happy new year to all of you and your familys :)	11:19
odin_	Happy New Year you there letic	11:19
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odin_	time to do some work, UK VAT rate change today 17.5% => 20% nice and austeric(sp)	11:20
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letic	hum guess less people are going to shop to NI now...	11:23
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slaine	letic: that's a good thing	11:25
odin_	maybe they are too dehydrated to walk "re; water-gate"	11:25
slaine	especially seeing as I got all my kitchen appliances already ;)	11:25
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letic	odin_: yeah well I am lucky enough to not have any disruption so far but it must be pretty annoying	11:27
letic	my wife is happy she left at noon all week last week for health and safety resaons	11:28
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letic	/s/reasons/resaons/	11:28
letic	slaine: come on now you have a nice Ikea in Ballymun what else do you need ? :P	11:29
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slaine	A range, a fridge freezer, and integrated dishwasher and an extractor fan	11:30
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slaine	saved a fortune getting those from NI	11:30
* loft306 lights the fire and tossses the dead animal on it		11:31
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CosmoHill	morning	12:17
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lcuk	http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/01/04/0251238/The-Challenge-In-Delivering-Open-Source-GPU-Drivers	12:20
lcuk	morning CosmoHill \o	12:20
CosmoHill	does that refer to VIA?	12:21
lcuk	no, intel sandy bridge	12:22
CosmoHill	you could have just linked me to phonornix	12:22
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lcuk	CosmoHill, why, there were multiple links and the /. article was cleaner titled and more descriptive (rather than hashkey urls)	12:23
CosmoHill	meh	12:24
* CosmoHill sips his tea and wakes up		12:24
v_zaitsev	imagine a beowulf cluster of open-source GPU's	12:24
CosmoHill	damn, what GPUs does my cluster have	12:25
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nazgee	hi	12:33
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Afak	Hello ! I Installed meego sdk on Windows and have installed QEMU for netbook.Meego is running Perfectly fine,but when i try to run a sample Qt Application say Hello World following lines are displayed on console :	12:54
Afak	Cleaning up remote leftovers first ...	12:54
Afak	Initial cleanup done.	12:54
Afak	Files to deploy: C:/Users/Zedstar/Documents/ScratchProjects/temp/rrpmbuild\temp-0.0.1-1.i586.rpm.	12:54
Afak	Deployment finished.	12:54
Afak	Starting remote application.	12:54
Afak	access control disabled, clients can connect from any host	12:54
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Afak	^^^and then Nothing Happens....Please Help.....	13:00
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CosmoHill	have you searched the mailing list or forums?	13:00
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Afak	@CosmoHill:I have searched the forums but did not find any help.....I did ssh also into the meego QEMU....the binary is installed at /usr/local/bin .....	13:02
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Ans5i	Afak: on ubuntu?	13:04
Ans5i	hm. win.	13:04
Afak	Ans5i : I have installed it to Windows 7	13:05
Ans5i	i did not get that far.	13:06
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Ans5i	Afak: so i could only guess. i would check target display settings first.	13:08
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Ans5i	there was btw testing button in creator running application settings.	13:09
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Ans5i	Afak: ^	13:10
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Afak	Ans5i : Hmm..please tell me how to do that...	13:14
slaine	Ans5i: perhaps the #meego-sdk channel would have people more familiar with the tools	13:14
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lcuk	slaine, aren't all the same guys who are in -arm also here?	13:16
slaine	not sure	13:16
slaine	-sdk channel used to have people that worked on the sdk tools that might not be paying attention to here	13:17
lcuk	and since he is asking about the netbook image sdk on windows (something not very arm related) think here might be better?	13:17
lcuk	ahhh forget me	13:17
* lcuk misread		13:17
slaine	lcuk, I could never forget you	13:17
slaine	;)	13:17
lcuk	phoey	13:17
* lcuk gets a different cup of coffee, that one didnt work		13:18
CosmoHill	hey slaine .o/	13:18
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slaine	CosmoHill: Hey Cos, happy new year and all that	13:19
CosmoHill	likewise	13:19
slaine	ta	13:19
CosmoHill	lets see if I can learn about shortest path algorithms by lunch	13:20
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Afak	Ok i ll try on meego-sdk	13:28
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lcukn900	hmm	13:57
lcukn900	bug 440	13:58
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=440 enh, Low, ---, sameo, ASSI, Unable to support ad-hoc mode for WiFi	13:58
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letic	slaine: thanks for the updated script BTW	13:58
slaine	Haven't done it yet	13:58
letic	arf read to fast :)	13:59
slaine	Will be available to push it up tonight though (was sick most of the last week)	13:59
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letic	great what don't you push it to the community OBS ? license issue ?	14:00
CosmoHill	is it possible to make an RPM that is basically a script that installs the driver?	14:01
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letic	sorry I am a debian guy I just assume that would be possible with RPM as it is in DEB	14:02
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slaine	sorry CosmoHill letic	14:14
slaine		14:14
slaine	way from keyboard	14:14
slaine	The .spec file is basically a script that pulls down the driver, compiles up the kernel module and packages that into a binary rpm	14:15
slaine	CosmoHill: unfortunately, there's nothing you can download from Broadcom that will just run, it has to be compiled	14:16
CosmoHill	hmm	14:16
slaine	letic: I haven't had time to push this to the obs, I should probably look at that this week	14:16
letic	great stuff	14:16
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sturvey	Hi. Can anyone point me at any instructions on how to install an application to run as a daemon? Ideally it should be able to be started at boot time. If this is possible then what would be the recommended way to allow a normal user to start/stop it as required? The principle reason being that it does not need a UI and having a blank box in the task switcher looks very odd.	14:57
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CosmoHill	how long have you been using linux?	14:58
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sturvey	CosmoHill: That to me?	14:59
CosmoHill	yes	14:59
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sturvey	CosmoHill: Plenty time :) But I've little experience with packaging my own debs or rpms. Will meego allow me to install new init scripts? If that works then all I'd need is a simple control panel UI application that could be launched as neede.d	15:00
CosmoHill	i think you'd have to make the bootscript have +s so that anyone could run it as the root user but this opens you up to a security threat	15:01
CosmoHill	you will be able to install anything you want no any distro so long as you have sudo / su access	15:01
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CosmoHill	what I would do is develop the application and bootscript without using rpm	15:02
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CosmoHill	once it's at a stage where you want to distrobute it, then you start putting it into an RPM	15:02
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sturvey	CosmoHill: That's pretty much the stage I'm at. My app runs just fine. Now I want to daemonize it. I guess I should investigate this bootscript you mention.	15:05
magius_pendragon	g'morning everyone, I'm trying to package a library (wxWidgets) as an rpm. Ive got the spec file so it builds, and the buildroot contains all the files, but it's not creating an RPM and I don't see any errors. Anyone know how I can track down this issue?	15:05
CosmoHill	magius_pendragon: when you install them do you use DESTDIR?	15:06
magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: I'm very new to packaging, so I'm not sure what you mean	15:07
CosmoHill	sturvey: I can't help you with turing something into a demon	15:07
CosmoHill	as for the bootscripts it's a matter of permissions, can the user stop an instance of the demon started by another user?	15:07
CosmoHill	magius_pendragon:	15:08
CosmoHill	you see the %install section in this spec file	15:08
CosmoHill	http://download.bluesquarelinux.co.uk/felix/SPECS/man-pages.spec	15:08
CosmoHill	it tells the installer to install it's the fakeroot location used by RPM	15:08
CosmoHill	s/it's/into/	15:08
infobot	CosmoHill meant: it tells the installer to install into the fakeroot location used by RPM	15:09
sturvey	CosmoHill: No problem with the actual daemonization part. Just the automatic launching and subsequent on-demand start/stop. It's only ever intended to be started/stopped by the default user.	15:09
magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: the default works, because the installed files show up in RPM_BUILD_ROOT	15:09
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magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: it's just not creating an RPM after	15:10
CosmoHill	hmm, magius_pendragon delete the .rpm file if it ever created one and clean the build root directory	15:10
magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: it never created one, that's what I'm trying to debug :). Problem is it's been taking a couple hours to build	15:11
magius_pendragon	so I'm lothe to just clean it out	15:11
CosmoHill	sturvey: if the boot script belongs to a group that has the users in it then maybe they'd be able to start and stop it	15:11
CosmoHill	ah	15:11
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sturvey	CosmoHill: Ok. Thanks for your thoughts. Time to dive in and muck about a bit I reckon.	15:13
CosmoHill	cool, I'll see if I can find you an example boot script	15:13
sturvey	CosmoHill: That would be helpful	15:14
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magius_pendragon	sturvey: there should be a bunch in /etc/init.d	15:14
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CosmoHill	sturvey: http://download.bluesquarelinux.co.uk/felix/SPECS/distcc.spec	15:14
X-Fade	albanc: ping?	15:14
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sturvey	CosmoHill, magius_pendragon: Thanks.	15:15
CosmoHill	you're welcome	15:15
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magius_pendragon	sturvey: sorry, wasn't sure if you were looking at specs or the init script itself	15:16
CosmoHill	hmm, that might not work on meego since it was made for another distros	15:16
sturvey	magius_pendragon: The link CosmoHill sent has an init script in it.	15:16
sturvey	magius_pendragon: And handily rapidly educates me on RPM spec files :)	15:17
CosmoHill	sturvey: meego would use /etc/init.d/bootscript and /etc/rc#.d instead of /etc/rc.d/stuff that the spec file has	15:17
CosmoHill	you two might be interested in the template.spec in that directorry	15:17
mwichmann	starting via initscript is probably not the preferred method	15:17
magius_pendragon	sturvey: indeed. I'm still trying to figure them out	15:17
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magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: I've read over the template, and I'm actually using specify (it's in the packaging tutorials on the wiki). This same outline worked on my other package that I made, but not this one	15:18
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mwichmann	meego has tried to force a lot of stuff out of that model	15:18
sturvey	mwichmann: What would you suggest is the more meego way to start an app on boot?	15:18
CosmoHill	I've not seen the meego template	15:18
Stskeeps	sturvey: don't, do it using dbus activation :P	15:18
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CosmoHill	the template.spec file there is the one I used to create probably 95% of the other .spec files in that directory	15:19
mwichmann	what Stskeeps said	15:19
magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: that's what I get for reading the wiki, huh?	15:19
sturvey	Stskeeps: That sounds interesting. Already using d-bus from some functionality. Can you describe d-bus activation in 20 words? Enough to give me something to get googling on?	15:20
Stskeeps	sturvey: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/IntroductionToDBus	15:20
Robot101	a .service file instructs the d-bus daemon to launch a certain process when a message is sent to a certain well-known d-bus service name	15:20
Robot101	the message is sent to that process once it's taken that name	15:21
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sturvey	Robot101: That just adds a layer of indirection. Who sends the first message? My app doesn't expose services locally so won't get a message to activate it.	15:23
kontio	sturvey, http://www.mail-archive.com/meego-packaging@meego.com/msg00300.html might interest you... contains a init script skeleton...	15:23
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CosmoHill	did all you people just get back from lunch at once?	15:25
sturvey	Stskeeps: Nope. It looks like an initscript is still the way forward. With some sort of simple start/stop control panel application.	15:28
Stskeeps	sturvey: what exactly are you planning on doing? :P	15:28
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Stskeeps	auto start a program at session startup?	15:28
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sturvey	Stskeeps: That's about it, yes.	15:29
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Stskeeps	then you should use xdg autostart	15:29
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magius_pendragon	can anyone tell me how meego's x login uses Pam? it seems to be ignoring /etc/pam.d/system-auth	15:30
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sturvey	Stskeeps: That looks more like what I need. Does MeeGo support autostart?	15:30
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Stskeeps	yes	15:31
sturvey	Stskeeps: Awesome. Right. Enough chat, more play. Thanks everyone.	15:31
magius_pendragon	sturvey: good luck	15:31
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Txt_file	Is it possible to run meego on a N900 without distroying the maemo5?	15:32
Stskeeps	yes	15:33
Stskeeps	in fact, that's the recommended way	15:33
Txt_file	makes sense	15:33
Txt_file	should I follow the normal manual for N900?	15:33
Stskeeps	yes	15:34
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slaine	Where does PulseAudio retsore system volume levels from ? I've noticed on some hardware that the default setting us muted, which I don't want	15:39
slaine	System, not user	15:39
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Stskeeps	well, that might be alsa's fault	15:40
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slaine	I could create an /etc/asound.state to set the initial values, assuming the system restores from that file during boot	15:41
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Stskeeps	var/lib/alsa/asound.state should exist too?	15:42
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magius_pendragon	slaine: i'd use alsactl store instead of touching the file yourself	15:43
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slaine	magius_pendragon: yes	15:44
slaine	Stskeeps: let me check	15:44
albanc	X-Fade, pong	15:44
magius_pendragon	anyone around familiar with the way meego handles login?	15:45
slaine	Stskeeps: crap, left my meego box at home	15:45
X-Fade	albanc: Your account should work now. And for rgs_ too.	15:45
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magius_pendragon	slaine: I have no /var/lib/alsa directory on mine (netbook image)	15:45
slaine	magius_pendragon: meego-netbook ?	15:46
magius_pendragon	slaine: yes	15:46
slaine	(re the login)	15:46
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albanc	X-Fade, thanks!	15:46
slaine	magius_pendragon: the uxlaunch application switches from root to <user>, where <user> is defined in /etc/sysconfig/uxlaunch	15:47
magius_pendragon	slaine: trying to do fingerprint login. It works on gnome-screensaver, and it works on console login, but not X for some reason.	15:47
slaine	Someone was looking at this back in Nov	15:47
magius_pendragon	slaine: it was me, I think.	15:47
slaine	right	15:47
slaine	so initial login still isn't working ?	15:47
magius_pendragon	or at least I was looking at it back in nov.	15:47
magius_pendragon	slaine: it works on a locked screen, but not initial login	15:48
magius_pendragon	and it works at terminal login too as best as I recall	15:48
slaine	'cause it's XScreensaver that handles the users password via the keyboard	15:48
magius_pendragon	slaine: but locked screen works?	15:48
magius_pendragon	which is why I'm confused	15:49
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slaine	magius_pendragon: so first boot login isn't working	15:50
magius_pendragon	slaine: correct	15:51
magius_pendragon	slaine: but everything else is	15:51
magius_pendragon	slaine: including if I switch over to a VT and log in there	15:51
slaine	VT login at first boot works	15:51
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slaine	i.e. it's not something that the UI session is starting which then subsequently makes the fingerprint logins work	15:52
magius_pendragon	slaine: well, to clarify, I haven't tried disabling uxlaunch (not sure how, tbph). BUt if I siwtch over to VT1, fingerprint works at hte login prompt	15:52
magius_pendragon	slaine: as best as I can tell, the UI session login is ignoring pam	15:52
slaine	It's possible it's a bug	15:53
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magius_pendragon	slaine: I should test that though, how would I disable uxlaunch on boot, so I can make sure that it's not that?	15:53
slaine	If you recall, initial login wasn't even coming up for me, even though the settings where there, I'd to disable and then reenable them	15:53
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slaine	magius_pendragon: hmmm, I forget	15:53
slaine	it's been too long	15:53
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magius_pendragon	slaine: i do remember that it didn't come up for you ; are you saying it did once you toggled the setting?	15:54
slaine	Easiest way to not have uxlaunch kick off at boot would be to just go into runlevel 3	15:54
slaine	magius_pendragon: Yes, it always came up with a wake from sleep, but never for a first boot	15:54
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slaine	I toggled the setting and rebooted and then it came up on boot	15:54
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magius_pendragon	slaine: how do I change runlevel on boot?	15:56
CosmoHill	press tab at the boot loader	15:57
CosmoHill	replace "quiet" with "3"	15:57
slaine	Should just be a case of pressing the tab key to get the kernel command line and append " 3"	15:57
magius_pendragon	CosmoHill: I don't get the bootloader (have been trying to figure out how to configure that too actually)	15:57
slaine	wot he said	15:57
slaine	magius_pendragon: it's quiet, you have to press the tab key a few times to hope you hit it :)	15:58
magius_pendragon	slaine: lol ok	15:58
slaine	Though, it's been a while since I've done it, it's possible it's changed on recent installs	15:58
magius_pendragon	currently building something, but I'll let you know	15:58
slaine	k	15:58
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magius_pendragon	speaking of, let's try this question. I was trying to throw some .spec's up on build.pub.meego.com, but I can't actually build it because it can't find the dependant packages. They exist (or at least, my netbook could install them), but I can't find them on the build site	16:00
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sivang	magius_pendragon: maybe they are pkgs you installed in addition to what's defined in meego netbook core?	16:03
sivang	magius_pendragon: you can't depent on packages which are outside of what's defined to be in the netbook core, AFAIU	16:03
villev	sivang: that applies to meego compliance, not what can actually be built iiuc	16:04
magius_pendragon	sivang: how can I check that? all I know is I was able to install it w/o adding any repos on the netbook	16:04
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sivang	villev: so build.pub allows you to depenend on any of the pkgs that are in the repos? (surrounds and whatnot)	16:05
villev	well, hopefully	16:05
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magius_pendragon	either way, the package isn't around	16:08
magius_pendragon	(to be fair, I haven't found anything on pub)	16:08
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sivang	magius_pendragon: so the pkgs are missing off the available repos?	16:10
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magius_pendragon	sivang: pkgs aren't listed in build.pub.meego.com, so I can't build anything that has a build-dependancy	16:10
Stskeeps	they're in netbook section?	16:10
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magius_pendragon	Stskeeps: no idea	16:11
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magius_pendragon	Stskeeps: I don't know how to find out, but I didn't add a repository to zypper in order to install them (might even have been installed already)	16:12
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Stskeeps	or zyppered in from netbook repo	16:13
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magius_pendragon	Stskeeps: as best as i can tell. afaik it's libusb1	16:13
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Stskeeps	that really should be in core, i would think	16:14
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: That is in core.	16:15
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: You just need to target repo in your project.	16:15
magius_pendragon	X-Fade: it's failing to build as "unresolvable" on the site. I got it to build on netbook.	16:15
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X-Fade	magius_pendragon: What is your project?	16:15
sivang	magius_pendragon: site == build server?	16:16
magius_pendragon	X-Fade: site == build.pub.meego.com	16:16
sivang	right	16:16
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: what is your username?	16:16
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magius_pendragon	X-Fade: magiuspendragon it's home:magiuspendragon:fprint	16:16
magius_pendragon	X-Fade: It's very possible I've no idea what I'm doing	16:17
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magius_pendragon	X-Fade: any idea what I"m doing wrong?	16:37
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: I see the same issue, so it is not you.	16:37
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: It does find libusb, but not libusb1. And both should be there.	16:38
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magius_pendragon	X-Fade: I'm not sure which one is required, I'm making a guess based on the configure output.	16:39
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: Ah, let me check something.	16:40
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: Yep. Found it .. it should be libusb-1.0 instead of libusb1 in your buildrequires.	16:40
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: Then it builds. Well it fails on missing nss ;)	16:41
magius_pendragon	thanks	16:41
magius_pendragon	rofl	16:41
X-Fade	magius_pendragon: But that is just because you don't specify it as buildrequires.	16:41
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magius_pendragon	I got it building on my netbook, i just did it a while ago and didn't remember what all I had to install to make it work	16:41
magius_pendragon	I also couldn't get osc to work, or rather i don't know what's the correct api to make it work	16:42
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X-Fade	magius_pendragon: Builders are clean every time. So you need to specify what you need extra.	16:43
magius_pendragon	X-Fade: no I understand that, I just have to let it keep failing and add stuff cuz I don't know what I added :p	16:43
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Mek	X-Fade: the community obs doesn't seem to be publishing the packages it built to repo.pub.meego.com anymore, any idea what is wrong?	16:46
Mek	(something I build probably about 20 hours ago by now is still not there)	16:47
Txt_file	is it possible to get a bootmanager to chose between meamo5 and meego?	16:49
magius_pendragon	Txt_file: I've found some people poking around on dual booting, but idk what bootloader maemo5 uses	16:50
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kontio	can a FEA be closed in bugzilla? seems once the status is Accepted, it can't be changed anymore, right?	16:52
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Txt_file	I saw also a video on youtube with meego and meamo in dual boot ... that's why I ask	16:53
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magius_pendragon	Txt_file: I would assume it's possible. I can think of some hack-y ways to do it, but i don't know if there's a better solution	16:55
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Txt_file	I don't want something that breaks my phone	16:56
Txt_file	paid enough money to get it 2 weeks ago	16:57
CosmoHill	MeeGo boots off the external memory card	16:57
CosmoHill	the internal memory is not touched	16:57
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CosmoHill	to remove MeeGo you simply turn the phone off, remove the memory card and turn it back on	16:57
X-Fade	Mek: I'll check it out.	16:59
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Txt_file	CosmoHill: I want a option to boot meego without flashing the kernel from a PC	17:00
Stskeeps	Txt_file: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/Dual_Boot	17:00
Txt_file	Stskeeps: thanks ... I'll read	17:01
CosmoHill	there's a lot of bold text on that page	17:02
Stskeeps	that you should read	17:02
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CosmoHill	hey Myrtti	17:15
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Myrtti	ohai	17:15
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X-Fade	Mek: It should publish new builds now.	17:17
Mek	X-Fade: only new builds or also those that were already built but not published?	17:18
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X-Fade	Mek: Only new builds, let me check if I can trigger publishing of older ones too.	17:18
Mek	I can just trigger rebuilds of course...	17:19
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X-Fade	Mek: Yes, that you can :)	17:20
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Txt_file	Stskeeps: this manual sounds not very risky. thanks anyway but I have fear to try it.	17:24
Stskeeps	you should have :)	17:25
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Txt_file	could someone port grub to the N900 :D	17:25
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sivang	anybody know if this is a good enough book to understand modern mobile celluar communications?	18:08
sivang	http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Networks-Second-Clint-Smith/dp/007226344X/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1294155415&sr=8-9	18:08
sivang	if a Nokian could recommend a resource, I'd be very happy, thanks in advance :)	18:09
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MohammadAG	Stskeeps, read logs, so the kernel sources are sorted now?	18:34
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Macer	hm	19:01
Macer	i am curious. if i run the chroot shouldnt all the hardware work?	19:01
magius_pendragon	Macer: did you mount /dev?	19:01
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Macer	no. i havent tried go run it yet. i was just curious before i tried	19:03
Macer	i want to see how far meego has come on the n900	19:03
magius_pendragon	Macer: all the hardware should work	19:03
magius_pendragon	Macer: at least that's always been my experience with chroots :)	19:03
Macer	i cant find the working/not working page	19:03
Macer	how about running it native?	19:04
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Macer	meego.org is ... messed up with some valentines day banner :)	19:04
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magius_pendragon	Macer: I should point out, chroots use the host system kernel to talk to devices, so if something works in a chroot and doesn't work on native, it's probably kernel drivers that are at issue	19:05
Macer	i want to see how far meego has gotten with the n900 hw	19:05
Macer	i am sure. they had the same issues with mer	19:05
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Macer	i want to see what meego is missing. i am sure the same as nitdroid... cam, gps, and modem mic	19:07
Stskeeps	not really - we have cam support (just took our first still shot today), modem and mic works	19:08
Stskeeps	work is ongoing	19:08
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dm8tbr	will there be an FOSS driver for the gps?	19:09
dm8tbr	last time I checked the whole thing was more or less TI confidential	19:09
MohammadAG	isn't it part of the modem?	19:09
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dm8tbr	I was under the impression it would be an nl5350 like in the A5IT	19:11
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jayabharath	dm8tbr: yes NL53xx firmware and drivers are proprietary... and will not have a FOSS drivers from TI.	19:33
Stskeeps	dm8tbr: problem is (technically) that the gps actually sits behind the modem and not reachable for the ARM side kernel, afaik	19:34
Stskeeps	dm8tbr: so we send commands to some software in the modem instead	19:34
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Stskeeps	dm8tbr: it's on my list to look into if we can get GPS support going, but licensing situation looks shitty (ie, might be a 'redistributable only for use on nokia equipment' etc)	19:35
dm8tbr	jayabharath: too bad and as Stskeeps just told the setup is different on n900 than on a5it this means there is no chance there will ever be a driver for it unless someone reverse engineers the existing android binaries :(	19:35
jayabharath	Stskeeps: it can be implemented either with a Modem front end or a apps processor front end... (ref: block diagram : http://bit.ly/giALc6 )	19:36
jayabharath	not sure how the N900 does it	19:36
Stskeeps	jayabharath: yeah, i'm unsure which chip actually sits behind the modem	19:36
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Stskeeps	could be TI, could be something else	19:36
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dm8tbr	a5it doesn't have a modem and I know that it connects to the second UART from looking at the kernel source	19:37
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Stskeeps	on a sidenote, i'm wondering why kernel (mainline) has a policy to ban drivers that has only closed userland	19:38
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Stskeeps	of course that's nice and all from a 'make the world better' pov, but it doesn't motivate upstreaming	19:39
dm8tbr	Stskeeps: I think it's because of things like the old ATI and nvidia drivers	19:39
dm8tbr	they basically wrapped their stuff in a kernel module and the binary then messed up the kernel on runtime and there was no chance to debug it	19:40
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Stskeeps	well, kernel part should be open, naturally - but i guess cos of the funny ways hardware is allowed to fuck up memory, some hooks could be bad :)	19:42
Macer	Stskeeps: really? wow	19:42
Macer	that is awesome. :)	19:42
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Macer	so all that is left is the gps?	19:42
Stskeeps	there's still things left, otherwise we'd be out of work	19:43
Stskeeps	:P	19:43
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Macer	haha	19:44
Macer	there is never no work ;)	19:44
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Macer	so do you think meego is end user functional yet?	19:44
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Macer	i mean in a beta sense	19:45
Stskeeps	not meego the platform and we've said repeatedly that our target is not a full end-user experience as we can't out of the box deliver what normal users would expect	19:45
Macer	oh i understand that much... maybe i should say... savvy end user	19:45
Macer	niche maemo users	19:46
Macer	:)	19:46
CosmoHill	single guys who like metal music and anime?	19:46
Macer	yup.. except i have a girlfriend ;)	19:46
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Macer	and not too into metal.. but anime is awesome	19:46
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Macer	but i am just waiting for something new to put on this n900. i was hoping to get at least another year out of it although i have to admit... i still think maemo is the best ive used on a phone even with its minor flaws	19:48
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npm	Stskeeps: which kernel image are you using that gives you camera functionality?	19:50
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Stskeeps	npm: the one just submitted to T:T adds camera stuff, but requires some linux stuff	19:54
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zigbee	Hello, friends!	19:55
zigbee	I'm stuck with correct packaging of qt-assistant-adp. In spec is declarated base package, -devel package and libQtAssistantClient4. But after successful built i have two additional libQtAssistantClient4: for x86_64 and ia64 arch. As a result - freetds package has status "unresolvable" with that message: "have choice for libQtAssistantClient.so.4 needed by unixODBC: libQtAssistantClient4 libQtAssistantClient4-x86". unixODBC built successfull. I'm realy diso	19:55
zigbee	riented..	19:55
zigbee	localy, by rpmbuild -ba its built without x86_64 and ia64 packages. In OBS - with them. Same spec and sources.	19:57
zigbee	build-log: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/live_build_log?arch=i586&package=qt-assistant-adp&project=home:zigbee&repository=meego_1.1_core_Netbook	19:58
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zigbee	argghh.. this is baselibs.conf..	20:09
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kaushik	do i need to add additional packages to get touchscreen working on meego-netbook???	22:13
Stskeeps	err.. depends on your hardware :)	22:14
mwichmann	touch works out of box, but there's more to it probably	22:14
kaushik	if it works out of box.. does it use evdev driver	22:15
kaushik	?	22:15
Stskeeps	kaushik: what kind of touchscreen is it?	22:15
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kaushik	Stskeeps: No idea.. any way to find out ...	22:17
thiago	if the touchscreen works, that's it	22:17
thiago	if it doesn't, there's no package you can add	22:17
thiago	if it doesn't work, the kernel driver for your touchscreen is missing, broken or not compiled	22:17
kaushik	ok ..	22:18
thiago	that's not counting multi-point touch	22:19
thiago	I meant only for single-point	22:19
kaushik	touchscreen will work in mutter session?	22:19
thiago	it works in the standard netbook UI	22:19
thiago	in fact, it works even during installation	22:19
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kaushik	thiago: thats nice info	22:21
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arjan\	kaushik: also the netbook UI is not really designed for touch	22:41
arjan\	so while it mostly works okish, there might be places where you'll hit some snags	22:42
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kaushik	arjan: nice to know that ..	22:42
kaushik	arjan: can you tell me what is mutter and mcompositor?	22:43
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thiago	kaushik: both are window managers and compositors	23:00
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djszapi	thiago: do you not start both days in Tampere at the MeeGo FI Summit ?	23:25
djszapi	* start = spend	23:26
thiago	I'll probably spend only the morning of Friday	23:27
djszapi	too bad :(	23:27
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thiago	the summit is on the weekend before Easter	23:28
thiago	I plan on taking the Easter week off	23:28
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djszapi	I see.	23:29
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