| sivang | thiago_home: I'd really like to iron out a feature request for the app visibility lost event, have you had any more thoughts about it? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| thiago_home | not my particular area of expertise | 00:01 |
| thiago_home | talk to ddenis tomorrow | 00:01 |
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| sivang | thiago_home: is here here usually ? | 00:02 |
| sivang | *he | 00:02 |
| thiago_home | no, #qt-labs | 00:02 |
| sivang | thiago_home: okay, will do thanks. | 00:03 |
| sivang | veli: nice :) | 00:04 |
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| * qgil finally put http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Materials/Slides in place | 00:58 | |
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| pupnik | apt-get install firmware-iwlwifi | 00:59 |
| pupnik | modprobe -r iwlagn | 00:59 |
| pupnik | modprobe iwlagn | 00:59 |
| pupnik | oops sorry | 00:59 |
| qgil | pupnik: are you expecting an output from the collective intelligence in this room? :) | 01:02 |
| BManojlovic | FATAL: Module iwlagn not found. | 01:02 |
| BManojlovic | :) | 01:02 |
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| Myrtti | E_NOTINTELLIGENT | 01:02 |
| qgil | :D | 01:02 |
| Myrtti | guru meditating | 01:04 |
| Myrtti | jebus, did I really spend an hour pruning my browser cookies? | 01:04 |
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| qgil | yum yum cookies | 01:04 |
| Myrtti | and still my gmail has a bug :-< | 01:05 |
| Myrtti | what a waste of time | 01:05 |
| * Myrtti kicks off her pink furry slipper boots and goes to bed | 01:05 | |
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| CosmoHill | :D | 01:11 |
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| sivang | Myrtti: you have pink furry boots? | 01:15 |
| sivang | Myrtti: You're cooler than I thought | 01:15 |
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| sivang | qgil: are you like on Pacific time now? | 01:16 |
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| qgil | sivang: yes | 01:17 |
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| sivang | qgil: ah, left Helsinki for good? | 01:17 |
| qgil | sivang: since the end of June :) | 01:17 |
| sivang | qgil: yeah, I saw something about it but was afraid to properly ask :) | 01:18 |
| lbt | ldap sync is a step closer :) | 01:18 |
| sivang | lbt: is this related to buteo? | 01:18 |
| lbt | not afaik | 01:18 |
| qgil | lbt let me guess... OBS? | 01:19 |
| sivang | well, it's not syncml for sue | 01:19 |
| lbt | :) | 01:19 |
| sivang | ah :) | 01:19 |
| sivang | so not related to device sync with ldap | 01:19 |
| lbt | qgil: we're open for business... but not shouting about it yet | 01:19 |
| sivang | although this could be interesting | 01:19 |
| lbt | we have a few users now... they just ask me and I add them | 01:19 |
| qgil | sivang: I'm sure lbt has instructions to install your own OBS in your device | 01:19 |
| sivang | qgil: heh | 01:19 |
| sivang | lbt: I wonder if the new SDK can ease rpmization before upload | 01:20 |
| qgil | lbt: cool and very welcome | 01:20 |
| lbt | too hard a slog ... but we're there... not as much horsepower as we'd like ... but that's being fixed | 01:20 |
| qgil | sivang: the new SDK is in need of real MeeGo app developers | 01:20 |
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| sivang | qgil: it will get those, when some of them finish previous committments like preparing conf slides, submitting some other work unrelated, sleeping, packing :) | 01:22 |
| qgil | sivang: I think I feel your pain | 01:22 |
| CosmoHill | cyas x | 01:23 |
| * lbt stumbles off to bed... o/ | 01:25 | |
| sivang | qgil: I wouldn't mind to drop over commitments pretaining to the project alone, but I have so many others outside of it, so I could live with the "pain", but the fact I can'\t dedicate full attention to it is a big part of it (the pain). But thanks for sharing :) | 01:26 |
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| sivang | anyway, body signals it'd a good time to go to bed. | 01:27 |
| sivang | good night | 01:28 |
| qgil | sivang: first things first - the rest can wait - don't open a new box until an old box is closed --- the theory is easy ;) | 01:28 |
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| sivang | qgil: true, true. theory always is :-p | 01:28 |
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| sivang | qgil: g'night | 01:29 |
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| qgil | sivang: nite | 01:29 |
| GAN900 | Packing, oof. | 01:29 |
| GAN900 | I need to find some climate appropriate clothing. | 01:29 |
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| * villev should be sleeping as well... got stuck coding | 01:30 | |
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| villev | btw, it appears we have now all the sdk goodies neatly packaged for ubuntu | 01:30 |
| villev | (as everybody here knows already) | 01:30 |
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| auke | bubye folks, going mobile for 2 weeks | 02:14 |
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| kaiex | hi. trying n900 meego dual boot. on startup, it stalls at "gemerating rsa ssh key". waited 10 minutes, no progress. but n900 has not crashed, after pressing power button it does a shutdown | 03:29 |
| kaiex | do I need to wait longer? | 03:29 |
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| kaiex | i use instructions from http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/Dual_Boot | 03:35 |
| pupnik | hi kaiex | 03:36 |
| pupnik | you might find someone who knows in #meego-arm | 03:36 |
| kaiex | pupnik thank you | 03:37 |
| pupnik | and a few folks are still awake in #maemo | 03:37 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Lots of questions about MeeGo at today's Nokia-sponsored Symbian event. Seems like a good sign for MeeGo. | 05:14 |
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| ShadowJK | any good questions or just the old usual? | 05:24 |
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| berndhs | alison_chaiken: a good sign for MeeGo, or a bad sign for Symbian? perhaps both :) | 05:31 |
| Alison_Chaiken | ShadowJK, questions ranged from the usual (When will the N9 ship?) to good ones (How does MeeGo Qt differ from Symbian? Is MeeGo hiring?) | 05:31 |
| Termana | morning | 05:32 |
| Alison_Chaiken | berndhs, both I would say. I'm heartened that the developers who showed up for a Symbian event have heard of MeeGo. A couple of the independent devs I spoke to their had impressive track records. | 05:32 |
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| chriadam | With the development platform being the same for both platforms (Qt) maybe it's a good thing for both platforms. | 05:33 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | "Korean Giants Struggle to Crack Smartphone Market": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/business/global/11iht-sk-phone.html Remind anyone of other companies? Hmm, can't think of any. | 07:04 |
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| ramkrsna | Anyone here who are right now at the Meego Devel show hosted by Intel in Pune | 07:21 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Nahdaan huomenna y'all. | 08:26 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: ping? :) | 09:38 |
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| Stskeeps | pong | 09:39 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: maybe you've beaten me in karmawhoring, but I've beaten you in arrival time to Dublin :D | 09:40 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: you have visa sorted out? | 09:40 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: I really hope that I'll get it today :D | 09:41 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: actually I'm calling them right now | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: ah - let's group up for cab | 09:41 |
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| Stskeeps | or something else | 09:42 |
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| Stskeeps | since we're landing so closely togetherr | 09:43 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: yeah, that would be great | 09:43 |
| Stskeeps | what hotel are you on? or were you staying with a friend | 09:43 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: nope, I'm in D4 ballsbridge inn | 09:44 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: ok, same here i think, at least we're going same place :P | 09:44 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: staying with Frank Karlitschek :) | 09:44 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: maybe we can pick up Andre too :) | 09:47 |
| wazd | let's have a "Karma 1000+" prty :D | 09:48 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 09:48 |
| Stskeeps | 3 hours waiting at airport sounds bad ;) | 09:48 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: oh crap, i'm looking at the departure table :D | 09:49 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: sorry :) | 09:49 |
| Stskeeps | you don't have me beat in departure, however | 09:49 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: 7:20 - you're obviously cheating :D | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | it seems i'll be partying all night with vdvsx :P | 09:52 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: well, I have Vlad to wake me up and take to the airport, so sign me in too :D | 09:52 |
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| Myrtti | sivang: of course I have nice warm slipper boots that are pink | 10:23 |
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| Myrtti | sivang: http://www.bedroomathletics.com/view/collection/womensslippers/boots/detail/20/ ♥ | 10:24 |
| lbt | bedroomathletics.... is that sfw ? | 10:26 |
| Myrtti | yes | 10:26 |
| Myrtti | very | 10:26 |
| Myrtti | lbt: by default everything I paste is, I've not managed to shake the Ubuntu Code of Conduct from me yet | 10:26 |
| lbt | Waaaat.... you clearly don't work in a male dominated environment...! | 10:26 |
| hhurtta | ew, i found that very disturbing! | 10:26 |
| * lbt closes browser quickly | 10:26 | |
| Myrtti | lbt: well, you do know where I work at. | 10:26 |
| Myrtti | kinda | 10:26 |
| lbt | ;) | 10:26 |
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| lbt | Denise would approve | 10:27 |
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| Myrtti | my legs get achy when my ankles get too cold, so those slipper boots are a must | 10:29 |
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| Myrtti | of course the situation is different in the cold hellhole known as "my UK home", where I can't scamper around in t-shirt and pyjama bottoms and slippers, I need to be fully dressed with one normal and one woolly pair of socks and better insulated slippers | 10:31 |
| lbt | rofl... whereas helsinki is *sooo* warm | 10:32 |
| Stskeeps | generally they appreciate heating in finland | 10:32 |
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| Myrtti | lbt: timer on a gas boiler that leaves the house cold half of the time and the conservatory making the kitchen cold as a bloody tomb so that I'm afraid that my toes will stick freeze on the floor... | 10:33 |
| Myrtti | well... yes. | 10:33 |
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| Myrtti | apartments in Finland tend to be warm in comparison to UK ;-) | 10:34 |
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| lbt | :) | 10:34 |
| adeus | that reminds me of this http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/11/2000-year-old-roman-multi-tool/ | 10:34 |
| lbt | anyhoo..... -> | 10:34 |
| lbt | bbl8r | 10:34 |
| adeus | "they brought with them central heating and civilization, two things that England lacked back then. " | 10:34 |
| adeus | laughed at the "back then" | 10:34 |
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| Myrtti | that is hilarious. | 10:35 |
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| iekku | in finland there's also only one water pipe, giving hot and cold water, not 2 | 10:36 |
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| adeus | "double glazing" whats that | 10:36 |
| RST38h | Moo, all | 10:37 |
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| Myrtti | adeus: it's the thing that most apartments have, but because the walls are so thin and the Britons are cheapskates with the gas, it makes no difference | 10:37 |
| * RST38h read adeus' last sentence as "cathedral heating and civilization" | 10:38 | |
| iekku | hah | 10:38 |
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| Mat_Matan | hi | 11:18 |
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| MannyNS | #join #meego-mips | 11:38 |
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| VivekG | Hello all, what is the support for qt mobility apis on meego handset profile ? | 11:39 |
| X-Fade | VivekG: Afaik there is qtm 1.02 in there. | 11:41 |
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| VivekG | oh great... so any more details about whether all the features of 1.0.2 are available on meego handset profile ? | 11:43 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:43 |
| VivekG | @X-fade: | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | morning MannyNS | 11:44 |
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| X-Fade | VivekG: I don't know the specifics, sorry. Just saw the packages when I imported them in OBS. | 11:44 |
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| Purti | does anyone know if the latest meego handset image is booting with qemugl ? | 11:45 |
| lcuk | VivekG, in general, if version X of something is there, generally all features of version X are available. whether there are any bugs in those features is a different question. check bugs.meego.com for any specifics or file new ones if you notice | 11:46 |
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| VivekG | lcuk: X-fade: hey thank you guys that was very helpful... have a great day.. | 11:48 |
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| timeless_mbp | X-Fade: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/847464 | 11:50 |
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| lcuk | morning folks btw \o | 11:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | oops, wrong window :) | 11:52 |
| slaine | morning folks | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | morn slaine | 11:52 |
| * slaine does a little stretch | 11:53 | |
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| MannyNS | good morning Stskeeps | 11:56 |
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| lbt_ | Jaffa: when are you arriving ? | 12:00 |
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| lcuk | http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_2010/Flight_Information | 12:01 |
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| lbt | thanks lcuk ... been too busy to keep up... I barely know what the schedule is :) | 12:01 |
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| lcuk | indeed, thats helpful to know when everyone is arriving | 12:02 |
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| timeless_mbp | oh wow | 12:03 |
| timeless_mbp | someone did a nice job on that | 12:03 |
| timeless_mbp | now i know when i depart! | 12:03 |
| lcuk | more importantly, you know when to get out of bed :P | 12:04 |
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| timeless_mbp | hrm | 12:06 |
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| Stskeeps | wb wazd | 12:30 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: visa is still on hold, they requested some additional waste paper | 12:44 |
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| timeless_mbp | wazd: again? | 12:45 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: eep, not good | 12:45 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: I suppose I have to donate about 1kg of it to get it :D | 12:45 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: but they've sweared to god that they will give it to me tomorrow if I'll send all stuff tody | 12:46 |
| wazd | timeless_mbp: don't even ask :D | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | hehe, and tomorrow they'll say 'it got lost in the mail, god doesn't cover postage losses' | 12:46 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: e-mail :) | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | ah, better | 12:46 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: god covers e-mails :D | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | "our mail server was down" | 12:46 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: No.1 question of the month "Why exactly Nokia has chosen you to participate in the conference?" | 12:47 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd: that's part of the info they'd like to know? | 12:48 |
| wazd | I really wanted to have printed facepalm.jpg with me | 12:48 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: yeah, I was surprised too | 12:48 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: I even wrote 2 pages descriving community, meego, maemo, open-source, karma-whoring, summits and stuff | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | "I have been involved in the maemo.org community for X amount of years regarding design in open source applications and I have been selected as one out of 64 talks where up to 130 other talks got declined" | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | "including many by nokia employees" | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | heh | 12:49 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: btw, printed BlueMaemo UI looks gorgeous :) | 12:50 |
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| lcuk | wazd, do emails have pages? :P | 12:57 |
| lcuk | and you should simply reply "why wouldn't they want me" | 12:57 |
| wazd | lcuk: sure, if you have .pdf file attached :) | 12:57 |
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| wazd | lcuk: I really wanted to reply that :) | 12:58 |
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| lcuk | he | 12:58 |
| wazd | lcuk: "Because they can" :D | 12:58 |
| lcuk | h | 12:59 |
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| lcuk | do you already have flight arranged? if so, add self to the http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_2010/Flight_Information | 12:59 |
| wazd | lcuk: I'm comming right in front of Stskeeps :P | 13:00 |
| lcuk | :D excellent | 13:00 |
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| wazd | and right behind RevdKathy :) | 13:01 |
| lcuk | eek, CDG | 13:01 |
| wazd | yeah, don't ask :D | 13:01 |
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| lcuk | i recall having to run at full speed through from one terminal to the other | 13:01 |
| wazd | is it really that bad? :) | 13:01 |
| lcuk | i nearly passed out | 13:01 |
| lcuk | depends on where to where you need to be and how long you have | 13:02 |
| lcuk | but its notorious for it | 13:02 |
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| lcuk | the airport is lovely | 13:02 |
| lcuk | it was a bit of a blur tho | 13:02 |
| wazd | lcuk: well, I have about 2 houts for the transfer | 13:02 |
| wazd | hours* | 13:02 |
| dm8tbr | and then your first flight is delayed by 1h50min | 13:03 |
| lcuk | haha | 13:03 |
| wazd | eek | 13:03 |
| dm8tbr | btdt | 13:03 |
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| wazd | it's so much simplier to travel by train :) | 13:06 |
| wazd | check in, get wasted :D | 13:07 |
| lcuk | wazd, at least with a plane, when it lands you know its done | 13:08 |
| lcuk | on a train its easy to miss your stop and end up in another country :P | 13:08 |
| wazd | or Syberia :D | 13:08 |
| wazd | so cool to live in Europe I guess, took a nap in a train - ended up in Spain :D | 13:09 |
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| leinir | wazd: *laughs!* What, seriously?! :) | 13:12 |
| lcuk | wazd, easily done lol | 13:12 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd: take nap in train - get robbed, your clothes taken from you and dropped out a train door, you mean | 13:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:12 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, speaking from experience? | 13:13 |
| lcuk | or do you have a new set of clothes :P | 13:13 |
| wazd | lcuk: he was the robber :D | 13:13 |
| wazd | It takes about 7 days to travvel from Moscow to Vladivostok. I think you can marry your roommate after that :D | 13:14 |
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| dneary | Hi all | 13:38 |
| Stskeeps | afternoon | 13:38 |
| dneary | Any coders with a few minutes on their hands about? | 13:38 |
| Stskeeps | shoot | 13:38 |
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| dneary | I need a few example programs to show off some features of gdb & valgrind | 13:39 |
| Shadikka | Example programs? | 13:39 |
| dneary | 1. Getting a stack trace from a core dump | 13:39 |
| dneary | 2. An off-by-one error that we're going to fix by setting a watch on a variable | 13:39 |
| dneary | 3. An infinite loop that we're going to discover by setting a break point & single stepping through a function | 13:40 |
| dneary | All these things should look plausible but the fix should be obvious in the debugger | 13:40 |
| dneary | And for Valgrind: | 13:40 |
| dneary | 1. A nice memory leak (I have one for this - linked list implementation where the delete node function doesn't free a data pointer in the structure) | 13:41 |
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| dneary | 2. A nice performance problem (something that works fine, reads its input from a file, and when you put in a file with over 100 lines of input it slows down dramatically - a nice O(n³) algorithm :) | 13:42 |
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| dneary | Something like: a complex comparison function for different elements of a structure that we read from a CSV, combined with an inefficient sort mechanism & an inappropriate data structure | 13:45 |
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| dneary | Say, reading address book data (surname, first name, phone number) into a linked list, and sorting it by traversing the list each time, calling the sort function for every comparison. | 13:47 |
| dneary | Just something which will show a function that is both called a lot, and takes a lot of time | 13:47 |
| dneary | Shadikka, Do you feel up to helping with one of these? https://github.com/dneary/linux-devel-tools-tutorial | 13:48 |
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| Shadikka | dneary: I cannot at the moment, but I'll try to check on them later today | 13:51 |
| RST38h | dneary: Just use Modest. | 13:51 |
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| dneary | RST38h, Now now | 13:51 |
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| RST38h | dneary: You should be able to demonstrate all the cases listed above =) | 13:51 |
| dneary | I want these for a "using Linux tools" tutorial | 13:51 |
| Shadikka | hehe :) | 13:51 |
| dneary | So simple, with very straightforward results | 13:52 |
| RST38h | dneary: Ok, a Ruby interpreter | 13:52 |
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| dneary | As in, we want meaningful memory leak results from Valgrind (not false positives a la Debian) and meaningful profiling data from Kcachegrind | 13:53 |
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| dneary | Or oprofile | 13:53 |
| dneary | Or sysprof | 13:53 |
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| dneary | RST38h, Try to be helpful, please | 13:55 |
| rauli | dneary: obviously char* help_message(void) { char* message = malloc(100); message = "test message!"; return message; } | 13:55 |
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| RST38h | dneary: I am deadly serious | 13:55 |
| dneary | rauli, Nice, I like it | 13:55 |
| RST38h | dneary: But ok, let us concoct something awful here | 13:56 |
| dneary | RST38h, You may be serious, but you're not being helpful, which is what I'm hoping for | 13:56 |
| dneary | I'm not going to have people debug a performance problem in a Ruby interpreter with Kcachegrind in a small part of one 3h tutorial | 13:56 |
| RST38h | char **Pigeons[256]; int J; for(J=0;J<256;++J) Pigeons[J]=malloc(J+1); | 13:57 |
| RST38h | for(J=0;J<256;J+=2) free(Pigeons[J]); | 13:57 |
| dneary | The stuff about GDB I want to show off: analysing cores, getting backtraces, watching variables, setting breakpoints, listing source code, printing variable values, and that is pretty much all she wrote | 13:58 |
| dneary | The idea is not to just show the stuff off, it's to apply the tools to a real problem | 13:58 |
| RST38h | for(J=0;J<128;++J) memcpy(Pigeons[255-J],Pigeons[J],256); | 13:58 |
| RST38h | Done | 13:58 |
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| RST38h | dneary: Will this example be sufficiently awful? | 13:58 |
| dneary | RST38h, Let me figure out what you're getting at... | 13:58 |
| RST38h | ok, one more loop: | 13:59 |
| dneary | pigeons[0] gets malloced 1 byte | 13:59 |
| rauli | RST38h: maybe J<255 or J<=256 on the second line instead of J+=2 (much more common typos) | 13:59 |
| wazd | RST38h: I've bought ъъъъ.рф domain :D | 13:59 |
| RST38h | for(J=0;J<128;++J) free(Pigeons[J]); | 13:59 |
| RST38h | Now you have got real horror | 13:59 |
| rauli | :) | 14:00 |
| RST38h | rauli: No. | 14:00 |
| dneary | Shouldn't it be malloc ((J+1)*sizeeof char *);? | 14:00 |
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| RST38h | dneary: No. | 14:00 |
| lcuk | rauli, eek that looks simple enough to be evil. however its also a broken example. { char *msg = strdup("test message"); return msg; } would have better effect | 14:00 |
| dneary | RST38h, I honestly don't see what that is supposed to do, sorry | 14:00 |
| RST38h | dneary: remove one * from Pigeons declaration, I erred | 14:00 |
| rauli | lcuk: yeah | 14:00 |
| RST38h | dneary: ok, a walkthrough then | 14:01 |
| RST38h | dneary: first loop will allocate 256 variable size buffers | 14:01 |
| dneary | lcuk, You missed the "I'm looking for plausible memory leak bugs for a Valgrind tutorial"? | 14:01 |
| lcuk | dneary, yeah | 14:01 |
| RST38h | dneary: second loop will free half of them BUT leave pointers in the array (invalid now) | 14:01 |
| lcuk | and every time you call that function it will return a newly allocated string | 14:01 |
| lcuk | ;) | 14:01 |
| RST38h | dneary: third loop will cross copy data between buffers, sometimes writing outside of allocated boundaries OR writing to a freed buffer | 14:02 |
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| RST38h | dneary: Finally, the fourth loop will try to free some of those buffers for the second time | 14:02 |
| RST38h | dneary: Are you sufficiently satisfied with the example? =) | 14:02 |
| RST38h | Or maybe we should add another loop after the first free() loopp that will allocate buffers for the second time, corrupting heap and causing memory leaks? | 14:03 |
| dneary | RST38h, I mean, it doesn't look plausible - it just looks like you want to write a bunch of data to someplace you can't. I would guess that would segfault at J=0 in the third loop | 14:03 |
| dneary | RST38h, So it's not so much a memory leak, as accessing freed memory | 14:03 |
| RST38h | dneary: It may, although I can almost bet it will not | 14:03 |
| dneary | I guess Valgrind would show it up, though | 14:03 |
| villev | dneary: be sure to have some bad memory access examples as well | 14:03 |
| RST38h | dneary: Well, if it does not, then it is not a worthy tool | 14:04 |
| dneary | villev, Care to come up with one & send me a short code snippet? ;) | 14:04 |
| RST38h | dneary: But the example shows all the common problems | 14:04 |
| villev | dneary: delete + poke | 14:04 |
| lcuk | dneary, shouldnt these be c++/qt? | 14:04 |
| RST38h | dneary: 1) freeing stuff twice 2) writing into memory you are not supposed to write, but still in the same data page (so, no core dump) 3) corrupting malloc heap tages | 14:04 |
| RST38h | dneary; and with the fifth loop you get 4) memory leaks | 14:05 |
| RST38h | But anyways, if you do not like the example, don't use it, I do not care. | 14:05 |
| villev | dneary: delete + pokenz | 14:05 |
| villev | sry | 14:05 |
| villev | RST38h: problem with your example - it looks like a computer science textbook excercise :) | 14:06 |
| villev | with C | 14:06 |
| villev | people get headache from those | 14:06 |
| RST38h | villev: I also suggested using Ruby interpreter but dneary did not like that. | 14:06 |
| villev | lol | 14:06 |
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| dneary | villev, I want a plausible looking program with bugs, rather than a concocted example | 14:07 |
| dneary | Lunch | 14:08 |
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| lcuk | dneary, how many monkeys and keyboards will you have? i am sure we can point them towards some apps that need bugs fixing :D | 14:09 |
| RST38h | lcuk: No, he wants you to write a buggy application specifically for him to pick at :) | 14:09 |
| * lcuk does not write buggy apps :P | 14:10 | |
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| dneary | lcuk, It's a tutorial - expecting between 10 & 30 attendees, I guess, since it's Saturday afternoon | 14:16 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: Sorry - was in meeting at 10am. Flight lands at 13:25, so according to the page about 3 hours after you | 14:22 |
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| lbt | :) | 14:25 |
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| * Jaffa looking forward to some time off work | 14:26 | |
| lbt | heh ... | 14:26 |
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| lbt | quite the oposite here | 14:26 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm just looking forward to some work that's not on the sofa | 14:27 |
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| * lbt is looking forward to seeing MeeGo working | 14:27 | |
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| Stskeeps | should see the n900 talk | 14:27 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:27 |
| lbt | I think I might attend | 14:28 |
| lbt | keep a seat for me ;) | 14:28 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 14:28 |
| lbt | I remember Amsterdam... | 14:28 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: Some busy talks | 14:35 |
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| * Jaffa looks forward to seeing MeeGo running "in production". Didn't stay on my netbook for long and seeing it in use properly on a netbook and some of the other devices would be cool. | 14:36 | |
| Jaffa | And to drink beer with new and old friends. | 14:36 |
| Jaffa | And a collaborative MWKN hackathon | 14:36 |
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| RST38h | Especially on "some other devices" =) | 14:38 |
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| lbt | I think it'll be interesting to see how the community side of MeeGo gets going | 14:38 |
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| lbt | certainly needs some work | 14:38 |
| Stskeeps | i think what this community needs the most is to sit down and have some beers with the people we usually argue with | 14:38 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:38 |
| lbt | yep... agreed | 14:39 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: +1 | 14:39 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Who are the people you usually argue with? | 14:39 |
| lbt | pink elephants mostly | 14:39 |
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| Termana | You guys are just in it for the beers, be honest. | 14:39 |
| Termana | :P | 14:40 |
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| niala | hello hello Dublin'ers | 14:40 |
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| villev | I think what we should have after meegoconf is some software becoming available | 14:42 |
| villev | like, someone announcing they just compiled the whole debian for meego or something | 14:42 |
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| lbt | well.... we got the OBS finished... but we're low on workers | 14:42 |
| villev | lbt: so OBS is go for community to start uploading now? | 14:43 |
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| lbt | yes | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | even the account import issue? | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:43 |
| lbt | yes | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | wow, miracles happen | 14:43 |
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| lbt | I have an account dump from 21 Oct | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | well | 14:43 |
| lbt | and now we have hourly syncs | 14:43 |
| timoph | lbt: cool. Where do i sign in? | 14:43 |
| lbt | ask me tonight ... I can't hit the LDAP right now | 14:43 |
| lbt | sorry | 14:43 |
| lbt | mmm | 14:44 |
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| lbt | actually... mail me : david@dgreaves.com ... I won't be online all night | 14:44 |
| lbt | just need a meego account name | 14:44 |
| timoph | ack | 14:44 |
| villev | does it use open id or...? | 14:44 |
| lbt | not yet | 14:44 |
| lbt | meego.com password -> ldap | 14:45 |
| lbt | eventually we'll sort out the openid for meego.com sso | 14:45 |
| lbt | and by "we" I mean someone else :) | 14:45 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: so right now you need a manual flagging to be allowed in? | 14:45 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: yes... and I think we'll keep it that way for a while | 14:46 |
| Stskeeps | out of curiousity, why? | 14:46 |
| Diablal | Hello, does someone know how to launch an application a the beginning of the session ? thx | 14:46 |
| villev | and I guess there is a meeting at dublin to admit select few to the cabal? \-) | 14:46 |
| lbt | we're not finished on the deployment and I want to keep an eye on who's asking | 14:46 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 14:46 |
| lbt | keep the human touch | 14:46 |
| tybollt | what is the status of meego now? | 14:47 |
| Stskeeps | tybollt: party time, naturally | 14:47 |
| Stskeeps | conference in dublin | 14:47 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 14:47 |
| timoph | :) | 14:47 |
| lbt | also we don't have much in the way of monitoring yet | 14:47 |
| tybollt | all the big graphics issues been sorted yet (as in, are the fixes in snaps?) | 14:47 |
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| tybollt | Stskeeps: I see a lot of "beer" in scrollback so no wonder there :) | 14:48 |
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| maitrey_ | mikhailz, are you the maintainer of qtcontacts in meego? | 14:48 |
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| Diablal | Sorry for insisting but nobody knows how to start an app automatically ? | 14:50 |
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| sivang | tybollt: I hope beer is going to be a big part of ti | 14:52 |
| * sivang should email the lists for participant of his talk to get some beer before. | 14:53 | |
| tybollt | is beer going to be a big part of the latest snapshot? | 14:53 |
| mikhailz | maitrey_: not really. Do you mean the Qt Mobility API component, or the Tracker backend? | 14:53 |
| tybollt | or is beer a big part in fixing the graphics issues in the latest snapshots? | 14:53 |
| maitrey_ | tracker bakend | 14:53 |
| maitrey_ | *backend | 14:53 |
| mikhailz | maitrey_: so, qtcontacts-tracker. What's up with it? | 14:54 |
| alterego | How much will the Nokia Qt cert be at the conference next week. | 14:54 |
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| alterego | Hrm, that was a question ^.^ | 14:54 |
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| maitrey_ | I updated tracker to 0.9.26. And we got new bug in meego : 9873 | 14:57 |
| maitrey_ | http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9873 | 14:57 |
| maitrey_ | mikhailz, ^^ | 14:57 |
| sivang | I think I've seen something about it, but do we have a python policy? | 14:58 |
| lbt | alterego: ask thiago | 14:58 |
| sivang | and an official python build for meego? | 14:58 |
| lbt | there's no official build | 14:58 |
| lbt | it's not in core | 14:58 |
| sivang | that said, if I have a package that uses python-support from debian- what do I do? | 14:58 |
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| mikhailz | maitrey_: is it not fixed as bug 9676? | 14:58 |
| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9676 is not accessible | 14:58 |
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| maitrey_ | Anyways mikhailz adrien bustany said he will update qtcontacts-tracker. | 15:00 |
| mikhailz | good | 15:01 |
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| sivang | ah , private bug | 15:04 |
| sivang | bug 9873 | 15:05 |
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| _MeeGoBot_ | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9873 is not accessible | 15:05 |
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| lcuk | sivang, file a bug then :) | 15:07 |
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| sivang | lcuk: hehe | 15:08 |
| lcuk | sivang, theres a ML thread about it on -dev | 15:09 |
| lcuk | but it might actually be better as a bug report | 15:09 |
| lcuk | then the closed bugs can be linked together? | 15:09 |
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| sivang | lcuk: hae a link to the -dev thread? | 15:11 |
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| lcuk | sure sivang http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.devel/6471 | 15:12 |
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| sivang | odd that a bug in the acceptance of the public meego buid is private, or does it make sense? | 15:15 |
| sivang | lcuk: ^ | 15:15 |
| lcuk | sivang, that was why i queried it. | 15:15 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: there's a bad policy atm where some bugs gets accidentially closed | 15:15 |
| sivang | lcuk: and you did not create a bug report? do we have a list of all the private ones? | 15:15 |
| lcuk | i can understand the rational behind having them | 15:15 |
| lcuk | but that specific case did not make sense | 15:15 |
| sivang | lcuk: sure, but not if they are on a public build acceptance test no? | 15:16 |
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| lcuk | sivang, meego.com is public and built using public components, it does not make sense that private bugs should be getting in the way at this stage. | 15:17 |
| sivang | lcuk: unles the bug report contians vendor specific data, but it should not I guess if it is the meego public and not vendor build | 15:17 |
| sivang | lcuk: isn't quim already taking care of the openness bugs? :) | 15:17 |
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| sivang | lcuk: maybe we just need to add this to his long bug trail about openness | 15:17 |
| lcuk | sivang, sure, i just made a remark on the ml :) | 15:18 |
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| sivang | lcuk: k, good. I don't have I'll have time to note this in that bug trail, if I do find some spare minutes I'll try to add this there. | 15:19 |
| lcuk | \o | 15:19 |
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| sivang | lcuk: actually, Idid not want to let it off my hands before dealing with it - http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4898 | 15:35 |
| sivang | andre: oops sorry, can you please move it to 9943 for me? :) | 15:36 |
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| andre | andre__: ^ ? | 15:37 |
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| andre__ | sivang, move what? | 15:41 |
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| CosmoHill | hey ali1234 | 15:49 |
| ali1234 | hi :) | 15:49 |
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| blafasel | Hi. I am confused about the sensors support (accelerometer, ...) in Meego. There is the sensor portion of Qt Mobility and there is meego-middleware-sensorfw. I am wondering why sensorfw does not use Qt Mobility internally. | 16:03 |
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| pupnik | blafasel: qt just recently got support for sensors | 16:05 |
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| lcuk | blafasel, potentially historical parallel class creation and will be ironed out in the wash | 16:05 |
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| blafasel | lcuk: Ironed out in the wash in which sense? Qt Mobility sensor parts will not be part of Meego? What about pure Qt application and systems where you don't want sensord? | 16:08 |
| ali1234 | Qt mobility is supposed to get rolled into Qt eventually anyway | 16:09 |
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| blafasel | ali1234: That means inside of Nokia two sensor APIs will be developed. The MeeGo one with sensord and the Qt one from the mobility parts, which might run on other platforms using Qt as well. | 16:11 |
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| Ronksu | blafasel: Qt Mobility uses sensorfw as the source of data on meego. (http://conference2010.meego.com/session/sensor-framework-walkthrough) | 16:17 |
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| blafasel | Ronksu: Thanks for the hint. But there is no sensor plugin for Qt Mobility yet that uses sensorfw, right? (I just looked at the Git tree as of today, but want to cross-check) I just see generic, dummy, maemo6, n900, s60_sensor_api, simulator and symbian. | 16:24 |
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| Ronksu | blafasel: maemo6 uses sensorfw. | 16:33 |
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| blafasel | Ronksu: Thanks! Now I got it. | 17:07 |
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| sivang | andre__: regarding private bugs reported on the meta bug | 17:40 |
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| andre__ | sivang, and move what? | 17:42 |
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| CosmoHill | specing up macs are depressing | 18:44 |
| CosmoHill | s/are/is/ | 18:45 |
| infobot | CosmoHill meant: specing up macs is depressing | 18:45 |
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| sivang | andre__: move them to the bug about private bugs, you stated on the meta bug that it'd be best to keep them somewhere sle? | 18:57 |
| andre__ | comments cannot be "moved" and I'm not an admin | 18:57 |
| andre__ | admins could hide your comment that is about hiding bug reports if you wanted though :-P | 18:57 |
| andre__ | feel free to add your comment to the other bug | 18:58 |
| * lcuk giggles | 18:58 | |
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| sivang | adeus: ijat :) | 19:00 |
| sivang | luck: ? | 19:00 |
| sivang | oops | 19:00 |
| sivang | andre__: :) | 19:00 |
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| g00fy | hi there | 19:01 |
| g00fy | any1 got some help 4 me? | 19:02 |
| g00fy | plz | 19:02 |
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| g00fy | i'm currently sittin at a tcom hotspot, unable to access any pages... wifi is connected, but the browser won't load the page | 19:02 |
| g00fy | any suggestions??? | 19:03 |
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| slonopotamus | g00fy: ping 8.8.4.4 | 19:03 |
| g00fy | gonna try this... brb | 19:04 |
| g00fy | first have to switch back 2 wifi connection ^^ | 19:04 |
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| slonopotamus | :/ | 19:04 |
| skibur | so is meego a go for the n800. | 19:05 |
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| slonopotamus | nope | 19:06 |
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| skibur | ok | 19:06 |
| slonopotamus | meego doesn't work with n8x0 kernel (afaik) and n8x0 cannot charge with meego kernel | 19:06 |
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| g00fy | re | 19:07 |
| CosmoHill | er | 19:08 |
| g00fy | tried to ping 8.8.4.4 | 19:08 |
| g00fy | no respond | 19:08 |
| g00fy | but I'm able to ping the start page of the hotspot | 19:08 |
| g00fy | chromium reports "Establishing secure connection..." | 19:09 |
| slonopotamus | g00fy: maybe you need to pay it some bucks? :) | 19:09 |
| g00fy | lol | 19:09 |
| g00fy | before paying i have to access the start page xD | 19:09 |
| g00fy | but after some time of waiting i only get a timeout message -__- | 19:09 |
| g00fy | it was already quite annoying to reactivate the wifi ability of my netbook (eeepc 1000h | 19:10 |
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| pupnik | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVAwoFZKUSQ what do you think of my 'happy happy' song - written in 1997 or so | 19:11 |
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| g00fy | no ideas? | 19:18 |
| g00fy | o_O | 19:18 |
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| DawnFoster | I'm working on my State of the MeeGo community presentation for the conference - what do you guys think are the biggest issues in the community right now? | 19:22 |
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| DawnFoster | seriously, no one has an opinion :) | 19:23 |
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| Chani | DawnFoster: I haven't figured out where the community is yet :) | 19:23 |
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| RST38h | How many peoplewho are not employees of Intel or Nokia are in the community? | 19:24 |
| Chani | but I'm sure it needs more hugs. | 19:24 |
| leinir | DawnFoster: Employees in various companies who don't have a "hang in #meego" clause in their employment contract ;9 | 19:24 |
| Chani | everyone needs more hugs. :) | 19:24 |
| leinir | Chani: Yup! :) | 19:24 |
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| DawnFoster | well, we have the conference coming up - hugs in person :) | 19:24 |
| Chani | yay! :) | 19:24 |
| leinir | Indeed :) | 19:24 |
| javispedro | hug unconference! | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: information flow | 19:24 |
| Chani | oh frack, still need to print my boarding passes | 19:24 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Here in the SF Bay Area, companies besides Intel and Nokia are starting to hire for MeeGo. For example, Nvidia and Wind River. | 19:25 |
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| javispedro | sivang: there? | 19:25 |
| leinir | javispedro: i approve of this! Time to get some MeeGo styled Free Hugs t-shirts made up ;) | 19:25 |
| Chani | remind me not to use ryanair any more :P they were okay before this $40 printing BS | 19:25 |
| RST38h | WindRiver is a part of Intel | 19:25 |
| Stskeeps | Alison_Chaiken: nvidia? thats curious | 19:25 |
| Stskeeps | url? | 19:25 |
| ShadowJK | $40 printing bs? is that when you check in at airport instead of online? | 19:25 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Ah, RST38h, you're right about Wind River, I forgot. | 19:26 |
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| Chani | d'you guys think there'll be a printer available at the conf, for printing my return boarding pass? | 19:26 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | Stskeeps, Nvidia has plans regarding IVI. My info comes from Nvidia employees. | 19:26 |
| Chani | ShadowJK: yep. if you check in online and can't get to a printter, they charge 40 euros | 19:26 |
| lcuk | Chani, yes | 19:26 |
| lcuk | but only from meego devices :P | 19:26 |
| * Chani even saw it happen to some poor girl at the airport last time I flew :/ | 19:26 | |
| lcuk | in reality i dont know | 19:26 |
| CosmoHill | would the dell mini 10 run meego? | 19:26 |
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| RST38h | Cosmo:If you make it, it will | 19:27 |
| ShadowJK | I usually check in for both ways a week before flight leaves (printing out stuff too) | 19:27 |
| wmarone | Alison_Chaiken: any idea if nvidia is gonna play nice? | 19:27 |
| * Chani has been waffling on whether to buy a checked bag | 19:27 | |
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| ShadowJK | as nice as "TI" probably | 19:28 |
| Stskeeps | ti's playing extremely nice | 19:28 |
| Alison_Chaiken | wmarone, Nvidia has a consistent track record of working well with their partners. They are good at listening and don't want to compete with their suppliers. Whether they are going to be upstreaming source code, we'll see! | 19:28 |
| DawnFoster | I'm still working on gathering that list of community issues for my presentation :) | 19:28 |
| DawnFoster | some things I have now ... | 19:28 |
| CosmoHill | hey Alison_Chaiken and DawnFoster | 19:28 |
| DawnFoster | Openness & information flow | 19:28 |
| Alison_Chaiken | Hey CosmoHill. | 19:29 |
| DawnFoster | Difficult for people outside of Intel / Nokia to get involved | 19:29 |
| RST38h | DawnFoster: You can consider my revious question an issue :) | 19:29 |
| DawnFoster | Hard to make progress with few devices in the market | 19:29 |
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| DawnFoster | RST38h: I summarized that one as "Difficult for people outside of Intel / Nokia to get involved" fair? | 19:29 |
| RST38h | DawnFoster: Not just difficult, but also not enough incentives to get involved | 19:29 |
| DawnFoster | Need to get application developers interested | 19:29 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: i think process documentation is important too | 19:29 |
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| Stskeeps | cant understand what is going on without knowing how the process works | 19:30 |
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| ShadowJK | re nvidia, their Tegra has no neon, and then people that do have Neon cpus probably would want to actually use Neon to boost performance, i just wonder how realistic it's to have a single arm arch is :/ | 19:30 |
| DawnFoster | RST38h: how about "People outside of Intel / Nokia need better ways to get involved and more incentives" | 19:31 |
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| javispedro | there's going to be two now, doesn't it? | 19:31 |
| javispedro | (re arm arches) | 19:31 |
| Alison_Chaiken | DawnFoster, my personal frustration has been an inability to get bootloaders to run the various MeeGo spins (handset, IVI) under the qemu emulator. Other developers who are interested in trying code on IVI, for example, may give up and turn away. The barrier to entry is too high even if there are workarounds for all the problems. At the very least, we need better docs on how to use these images. | 19:31 |
| javispedro | softfp and hardfp | 19:31 |
| DawnFoster | RST38h: suggestions for other incentives? | 19:31 |
| javispedro | softfp could get its requeriments lowered | 19:31 |
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| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: any specific suggestions on process docs? | 19:31 |
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| RST38h | DawnFoster: Afraid, I am a bit pessimistic at this point: can'texpect application people to get interested until there are actual devices | 19:32 |
| RST38h | DawnFoster: How about putting more emphasis on IVI? There should be enough Atom-based car PCs on the market right nowto justify IVI porting | 19:33 |
| CosmoHill | I think the latest mini 10 (1018) can run meego, it's £270 GBP with 3 year warranty and case (student discount) | 19:33 |
| DawnFoster | Alison_Chaiken: something like this - "Need a much better experience for application developers and make our SDK easier to use" ? | 19:33 |
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| * javispedro wishes sivang was here | 19:33 | |
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| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: requirements process, qa process (and involvement).. hmm.. well, and program office process | 19:34 |
| RST38h | DawnFoster: Oh, wait, you need application SDK to be portable AT LEAST between Linux distros | 19:34 |
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| wmarone | CosmoHill: I think the primary concern at this point is ARM-based handset/tablet hardware | 19:34 |
| RST38h | The topic cameup a while ago | 19:34 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: oh, you mean the processes that don't exist yet that need better documentation :) | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: a lot of meego process is documented a fair bit, of course | 19:34 |
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| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: exactly ;) | 19:34 |
| wmarone | x86-64 bit support too | 19:34 |
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| Stskeeps | difficult to tell difference between no process and undocumented process | 19:35 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: exactly. | 19:35 |
| RST38h | DawnFoster: I.e. if I am using Ubuntu on my development machine, I should still be able to install and use application SDK | 19:35 |
| Stskeeps | documented process allows 'outsiders' to participate, i guess | 19:36 |
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| DawnFoster | RST38h: yeah, the SDK still needs a lot of work - release yesterday is a step in the right direction, but lots of work left | 19:36 |
| Alison_Chaiken | DawnFoster, "Make SDK more accessible to developers who don't possess a complete suite of devices." Or sump'n like that. | 19:36 |
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| DawnFoster | Alison_Chaiken: better, thanks! | 19:38 |
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| lcuk | can anybody name their favourite outstanding feature on their little bit of meego? which part are you proud of making and that you put energy towards adding awesome into? | 19:38 |
| DawnFoster | I also have something about the difficulties in merging the maemo & meego communities - different audiences, etc. | 19:38 |
| townxelliot | Alison_Chaiken: have you filed bugs for the issues you're having (either against SDK or docs)? the SDK docs for 1.1 have been working well for me, providing I stick to the MADDE runtimes | 19:39 |
| Jaffa | DawnFoster: Is it clear who the community is *intended* to be? There were lots of discussions a few months ago that your average maemo.org power user with a device in their hand would be better served somewhere other than meego.com | 19:40 |
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| CosmoHill | wmarone: I currently don't have a computer that can run meego | 19:40 |
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| DawnFoster | Jaffa: I think we've always said that the power users would be a good fit for meego.com | 19:41 |
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| CosmoHill | I can run meego core at level 3 on any pc I own tho :) | 19:41 |
| javispedro | level 3? | 19:41 |
| CosmoHill | init level | 19:41 |
| DawnFoster | average joe user wanting support for a specific device should probably go to the manufacturer for support | 19:41 |
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| javispedro | aa | 19:41 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: I think this first requires some analysis of who current maemo.org members are | 19:41 |
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| RST38h | Jaffa: Things...changed over the last year or two | 19:41 |
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| Jaffa | DawnFoster: Hmm, I'm sure I remember suggestions that people would go to a "Nokia" community site, for example. | 19:41 |
| DawnFoster | we just don't want meego.com to provide basic user support for hundreds of devices | 19:41 |
| CosmoHill | for example I used meego on a P4 to do some work :) | 19:41 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: True | 19:42 |
| DawnFoster | Jaffa: for joe user needing support on device | 19:42 |
| Jaffa | DawnFoster: So discussions about vendor-specific UIs or APIs are on-topic for meego.com? | 19:42 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, would matlab style apps work on a little netbook? people like lardman always have a use for a big calculator | 19:42 |
| RST38h | Jaffa,DawnFoster: Why not carefully analyze the groups of people frequenting maemo.org and try to provide something useful for each group?Not necessarily via www.meego.com of course | 19:43 |
| CosmoHill | I've never used matlab, the students the year after us did tho | 19:43 |
| lcuk | are there any geared towards touch? | 19:43 |
| RST38h | You know, you can have subdomains, like users.meego.com :) | 19:43 |
| lcuk | playing with equations and warping them :D | 19:43 |
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| DawnFoster | Jaffa: obviously that's a huge topic :) | 19:44 |
| Jaffa | DawnFoster: There also seems to be a feeling that the TSG aren't prepared for TSG meetings, that's a community issue | 19:44 |
| lcuk | jaffa i think thats just like some people dont know how to handle telco meetings | 19:45 |
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| Alison_Chaiken | townxelliot, I don't believe that the difficulties I'm referring to are bugs. For example, the fact that you need an IMEI to download the bootloader that you need to build a handset image is vexing to me, but is not a bug! Use of the IVI image presents similar problems. As we extend MeeGo to more and more devices, we want independent developers to be able to easily test their code on *all* the devices and we can't expec | 19:45 |
| Alison_Chaiken | t them to own all of them. Since bootloaders, etc. can be proprietary, I understand why the problem can be difficult. | 19:45 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: Which "people" are you describing there? If it's the TSG, it's still a problem; if you're suggesting it's only a *perceived* problem, we can explore that ;-) | 19:47 |
| CosmoHill | oh crap, was there a TSG meeting yesterday that I missed? | 19:48 |
| lcuk | jaffa i think its a bit of both, you only grow more comfortable in an environment as you use it | 19:48 |
| lcuk | its just as daunting to some people to handle a room of 20 devs as it is to stand infront of hundreds | 19:48 |
| ShadowJK | It's kinda hard to define joe user, I don't think anyone has a clear grip on it. we have fairly basic joe users on talk.maemo.org needing help with pretty advanced and complicated stuff. wifi tethering, reverse role bt dun/pan, and getting their bluetooth keyboards working comes to mind :-) It's partly a disconnect between user expectations and what users want to do, and what's easily supported out of box | 19:49 |
| lcuk | s/room/irc chan/ | 19:49 |
| infobot | lcuk meant: its just as daunting to some people to handle a irc chan of 20 devs as it is to stand infront of hundreds | 19:49 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: You can break users into groups, still | 19:49 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: like 1) linux core hackers 2) application developers 3) maemo/meego power users with linux experience 4) smartphone powerusers (generally with android/symbian/ios experience) | 19:50 |
| RST38h | and 5) complete newbees | 19:50 |
| RST38h | Notice the difference between 3 and 4 | 19:50 |
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| RST38h | #3 generally treat their device as a tablet or a computer and constantly say that "it is not a phone" | 19:51 |
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| CosmoHill | lcuk: there was someone who game in here, said the channel was bigger than he expected then left | 19:51 |
| RST38h | #4 are folks who usually come from some other smartphone forums, after buying a maemo/meego device | 19:51 |
| ShadowJK | so in my example there was group 5 needing help with getting custom kernel + modules and a few scripts installed ;) | 19:51 |
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| * javispedro tries to classify itself in RST38h's breakdown | 19:51 | |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Actually, they do not | 19:51 |
| RST38h | javispedro: #2->#1. | 19:52 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: They need to be told NOT TO | 19:52 |
| CosmoHill | I'd be 1 or 3 | 19:52 |
| * smithna doens't fit RST38h breakdown | 19:52 | |
| wmarone | RST38h: told not to what, install a custom kernel? | 19:52 |
| lcuk | RST38h, where do visual basic developers sit? *grin* | 19:52 |
| RST38h | wmarone: Yes. | 19:52 |
| CosmoHill | RST38h: 5: Hello, I can't find the start button | 19:52 |
| RST38h | wmarone: It usually ends up in a brick, and YOU will be balmed for it. | 19:53 |
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| CosmoHill | lcuk: outside in the cold and rain? | 19:53 |
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| lcuk | :D | 19:53 |
| RST38h | Cosmo: BTW, if you let them just talk to each other in some forum, they can help each other just fine | 19:53 |
| wmarone | RST38h: well you could just do the motorola thing and lock it down, but I have no respect for vendors that act like that | 19:53 |
| * CosmoHill hides his VS2010 | 19:53 | |
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| RST38h | wmarone:No, no | 19:53 |
| RST38h | wmarone: This is not a policy thing. This is a social thing. | 19:53 |
| wmarone | they're going to do it no matter what | 19:54 |
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| ShadowJK | wmarone, sure, then we need a forum for unlocking/rooting instructions :D | 19:54 |
| CosmoHill | I've noticed that in my channel, the ones that are a little bit ahead help the others a little behind | 19:54 |
| wmarone | whether following you, or someone else | 19:54 |
| RST38h | wmarone: Let us say, I drop by the car shop and ask mechanics to QUICKLY show me how to replace engine in my Honda | 19:54 |
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| RST38h | wmarone: Guess their response. | 19:54 |
| CosmoHill | "this is a bmw dealership" | 19:54 |
| lcuk | RST38h, they will offer you a quote. | 19:54 |
| sofar | "Here's the address of the school I went to" | 19:54 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Good | 19:55 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Then I will offer the first newbee asking me about kernel replacement a quote. | 19:55 |
| javispedro | or a hammer. | 19:55 |
| lcuk | indeed RST38h | 19:55 |
| RST38h | javispedro: You *offer* a quote, but you *apply* a hammer =) | 19:55 |
| ShadowJK | they dont ask for kernel replacement, of course, they ask for "tethering" :) | 19:55 |
| wmarone | perhaps a "so you want to replace your kernel..." page is in order | 19:55 |
| javispedro | actually, I'd tell the user. And not warn them about getting gas out of the car first. | 19:55 |
| merge | hi! unconvential question here: Is is possible to buy MeeGo t-shirts anywhere? thanks! :) | 19:55 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: "Here is a wiki page, follow it" | 19:56 |
| arjan | few people want to really replace their kernel | 19:56 |
| arjan | they just want to add stuff on top :) | 19:56 |
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| Jaffa | arjan: You've not read talk.maemo.org, have you? | 19:56 |
| ShadowJK | or ask "my keyboard doesn't work" | 19:56 |
| javispedro | the "red pill" syndrome | 19:56 |
| wmarone | arjan: sure, but there's legions of people doing it on the N900 who really shouldn't be | 19:56 |
| RST38h | arjan: You obviously have not been following Maemo :) | 19:56 |
| Jaffa | arjan: USB hostmode, overclocking, ... | 19:56 |
| arjan | Jaffa: I know many people THINK \theyu want. | 19:56 |
| sofar | ext4 | 19:56 |
| CosmoHill | merge: I think you can only get them in person | 19:56 |
| Jaffa | arjan: Well, I don't disagree there. | 19:56 |
| sofar | lol | 19:56 |
| arjan | at least on x86 you don't need to replace the kernel for overclocking | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: ntfs support! | 19:56 |
| arjan | you can do that from userland | 19:56 |
| sofar | tee hee | 19:56 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: You may have noticed that once you let these guys chat to each other in some thread, they CAN help each other | 19:56 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: Indeed. Anyone who wants something but doesn't know why should, henceforth, be called a red-piller | 19:57 |
| lcuk | youngsters | 19:57 |
| CosmoHill | ShadowJK: "Keyboard not found. Press F11 to continue" | 19:57 |
| javispedro | Jaffa++ | 19:57 |
| lcuk | i remember when overclocking needed a pencil :P | 19:57 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Yes, it does look like a bunch of monkeys having weird rituals, but they end up satisfied and that is ALL that is required | 19:57 |
| arjan | CosmoHill: I had my n900 do kinda like that the other day | 19:57 |
| arjan | had to take the battery out | 19:57 |
| arjan | to fix it | 19:57 |
| arjan | it had this dialog "this webpage has some other thing open. press cancel to continue or abort to exit." and then it had a "yes" and "no" button | 19:57 |
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| arjan | which didn't do anything because it was not cancel or exit | 19:57 |
| arjan | and no way out of that modal dialog as a result | 19:58 |
| arjan | -> time to remove the battery | 19:58 |
| RST38h | arjan: Maemo5 kernel has unsafe CPU clocks artifically disabled | 19:58 |
| thiago | hold the power button | 19:58 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: ah, ran into that one too | 19:58 |
| RST38h | arjan: To prevent users from melting that OMAP3 down | 19:58 |
| thiago | the power button has "kill task" | 19:58 |
| * arjan is not very happy with the latest n900 update | 19:58 | |
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| arjan | my 'you have a text message' blinky led also stopped working | 19:58 |
| CosmoHill | Jaffa: what's a red-pillar? | 19:58 |
| RST38h | arjan: That is why a new kernel is needed for overclocking | 19:58 |
| arjan | as did the keyboard backlight | 19:58 |
| arjan | RST38h: on x86 you can just read/write MSRs from userspace | 19:58 |
| ShadowJK | I suspect wanting to do something that ends up needing iptables is the number one reason people end up in the situation where they need/want to replac kernel on n900 | 19:58 |
| RST38h | arjan: You can probably do the same with OMAP3 platform registers | 19:59 |
| arjan | disabling iptables is evil.. I'll not argue against that ;) | 19:59 |
| thiago | arjan: my blue blinking is still working | 19:59 |
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| javispedro | ShadowJK: #1 is still overclocking by far, in my experience outside tmo | 19:59 |
| thiago | arjan: keyboard backlight too | 19:59 |
| thiago | including R&D mode keyboard blinking | 19:59 |
| RST38h | arjan: But then, how can you be sure that your friends Snapdragon-based pdevice has the same registers? | 19:59 |
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| ShadowJK | you don't know that on x86 either, do you? | 20:00 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: i'm wondering when i'll get some kind of complaint over the uboot catastrophe people brought upon themselves.. | 20:00 |
| RST38h | arjan: Or, for that matter, an x86 based device? Linux provides the clock frequency control abstraction just for this reason | 20:00 |
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| ShadowJK | uh | 20:00 |
| Purti | does anyone tried to boot qemugl qith latest meego handset images? | 20:01 |
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| Purti | When i try to boot with qemugl and latest meego handset images with GL support enabled ..it freezes on booot.. | 20:02 |
| Purti | any one has any insight on this ? | 20:02 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: you're already the "evil" Stskeeps for not giving them flash ;) | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: at least i go out with a bang! | 20:03 |
| ShadowJK | so I guess my point was that if someone had checked what the most downloaded symbian app was before pondering whether to disable iptables or not, there'd been a lot less newbies trying to flash kernels :) | 20:05 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Now we know the real reason why you left tmo :) | 20:05 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i haven't left yet | 20:05 |
| ShadowJK | although no single appstore would've made it hard :) | 20:05 |
| RST38h | Uboot, Stskeeps. They will come for you, carrying pitchforks... | 20:05 |
| CosmoHill | where is Stskeeps leaving? | 20:05 |
| Stskeeps | here, naturally :P | 20:06 |
| sivang | javispedro: yeah, 'sup? | 20:06 |
| * sivang was just about the head home in the furious heat | 20:06 | |
| javispedro | sivang: heya, read the backlog, around where I first pinged you | 20:06 |
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| ShadowJK | and repeating those kind of things will probably result in explosion of device-specific support issues :) | 20:06 |
| sivang | javispedro: oh, more backlog reading- will do it at home | 20:07 |
| sivang | javispedro: be back in an hour or so, is that okay? | 20:07 |
| javispedro | sivang: yeah, no problem, will give you link. | 20:08 |
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| javispedro | btw | 20:10 |
| * javispedro is unaware | 20:10 | |
| javispedro | what's the problem with uboot? | 20:10 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: someone processed the meego guide for dual boot through 2-3 different origins of the guide and ended up removing the warning "DONT USE THIS WITH ANYTHING ELSE THAN PR1.3 KERNEL" | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | and a large bunch of, to be honest, lemmings, went ahead and installed kernel-power and then uboot-pr13.. | 20:11 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 20:11 |
| javispedro | yes. lol :) | 20:12 |
| RST38h | instant win! | 20:12 |
| * javispedro is used to this | 20:12 | |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: once you have a quiet moment, it'd be a good idea to study the (talk.)maemo.org community a bit, to prepare a bit for any kind of potential on-rush we can have once meego 1.2 goes out and people really start productizing.. | 20:12 |
| ShadowJK | I think powerkernel has been updated with all 1.3 patches now, except for the usb bug/features | 20:12 |
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| RST38h | javispedro: I stopped responding to "how do I switch to full screen" after 5th or 6th question | 20:13 |
| RST38h | javispedro: They do not read, just write mostly. | 20:13 |
| javispedro | I've been careful enough to write appropiate number of "exit" commands in all instrucions I gave them, but those third-party sites then to remove them, so the lemmings blindly proceed to run everything as root | 20:13 |
| javispedro | until they crap their rootfs by chowning /home/user or some other shit. | 20:13 |
| ShadowJK | Stskeeps, if by "study" you mean getting thrown into a septic tank of undead lemmings? | 20:13 |
| Stskeeps | ShadowJK: observing | 20:13 |
| ShadowJK | it's probably still very harmful | 20:14 |
| dm8tbr | full biosuit recommended | 20:14 |
| * ShadowJK wishes there was a fix | 20:14 | |
| smoku | huh... I see this kind of stuff everyday in Streak community. There are 3+ different radio images, and several customized system images floating around. and you have to have a matching radio and radio library in system. if not - you end up with non booting device. :) half the threads on streak related forums are "my device is bootlooping! help!" | 20:15 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5017271902_20f880e58f.jpg | 20:15 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: "Undead lemmings" | 20:15 |
| javispedro | lesson to be learned here -> everything that does not instantly fail horribly or has no BIG LETTERS feedback is ignored by lemmings | 20:15 |
| RST38h | But, seriously, they are people too. And they also need a community. | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | smoku: ow | 20:15 |
| RST38h | So, as long as you provide them with a community where they can feel at home, they will be happy | 20:16 |
| Stskeeps | smoku: those kind of things almost make me want to believe in locked down devices.. | 20:16 |
| smoku | javispedro, this does not work. BIG RED LETTERS work like advertisement box. to-be-skipped | 20:16 |
| * javispedro realizes the truth behind Steve Jobs: he worked at tech support! | 20:16 | |
| Stskeeps | smoku: goatse.cx on each page might work | 20:16 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: There are much easier ways to do this | 20:17 |
| ShadowJK | Stskeeps, ideally things should "just work" so that nobody even needs/wants to get involved in risky replacing of stuff :-) | 20:17 |
| sivang | so without reading the complete backlog, but at least half ot it | 20:17 |
| sivang | of it | 20:17 |
| smoku | Stskeeps, not really. this is the case of not that much people making a lot of noise can skew the perception of reality. | 20:17 |
| ShadowJK | but making things "just work" is damn hard :/ | 20:17 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: once you have a quiet moment, it'd be a good idea to study the (talk.)maemo.org community a bit, to prepare a bit for any kind of potential on-rush we can have once meego 1.2 goes out and people really start productizing.. we didn't prepare properly and it'd be good if we could here :P | 20:17 |
| javispedro | smoku: and the "fail horribly" part might also not work, as a recent user in tmo ignored a failing "cd /dir" error message, then proceeded to run rm -rf *, which instead of erasing contents of /dir erased contents of / | 20:17 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: When asked a question, answer with a link to the appropriate wiki page. At that page, at the very top, show a huge red warning, flashing if you will | 20:17 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: Looks like you will want to use the end result of me and timeless's talk | 20:17 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38h: <blink> was deprecated | 20:17 |
| smoku | Stskeeps, the real problem was when O2 distributed OTA an image that bricked ~10% of devices :D | 20:18 |
| lcuk | ShadowJK, of course. and a lot of very skilled people are working damned hard as evidenced every single day | 20:18 |
| DawnFoster | sivang - well, I am on right after the keynotes, so that isn't an option :) | 20:18 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Do not get agitated, do not goatse them, do not try to help them individually. Just give a link to the wiki | 20:18 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: oh no :) not for the conf :) | 20:18 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: But still working, hehe ;) | 20:18 |
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| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: agreed - now to just find that "quiet moment" | 20:18 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: for actually helping us to remove the "leak hunger", "sarcasm" and "discontent" factors that we excavated in #maemo | 20:18 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: :) | 20:18 |
| DawnFoster | sivang: ah, sorry - too many parallel conversations - thought you were answering my questions about my conference talk | 20:19 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: we are actually doing this research, me in the more general process and community sense, timeless in the more down the details | 20:19 |
| DawnFoster | cool | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: yeah.. i'm currently planning for christmas to be my quiet moment, where i leave my n900 in the hands of my wife or something so i can't use it ;) | 20:19 |
| DawnFoster | sivang: I would be very interested in seeing it after the conference | 20:19 |
| DawnFoster | I'm swamped until them | 20:19 |
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| sivang | DawnFoster: I was wondering who'd be our point of contact once we come up with our findings | 20:19 |
| javispedro | sivang: that's what I wanted you to notice btw ;) | 20:20 |
| * Stskeeps votes for someone sponsoring dawn a paid assistant or two | 20:20 | |
| javispedro | sivang: (in the backlog I mean) | 20:20 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: if that's you, since you started asking what the commuhity is happy/unhappy with - great | 20:20 |
| DawnFoster | I'm hiring another community manager :) | 20:20 |
| DawnFoster | to get me off of things like Yocto, for example | 20:20 |
| sivang | Yocto? | 20:20 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: nice, off the community, off maemo? | 20:20 |
| DawnFoster | not really meego focused, but I might be able to use them for some things | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: should help matters a bit | 20:20 |
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| DawnFoster | http://www.yoctoproject.org/ | 20:21 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: ideally the community manager should be someone who cannot get to sleep at night if some feature request was not filed being communicated out of frustration of a community emmeber | 20:21 |
| javispedro | a zombie! | 20:21 |
| DawnFoster | right now I am the only community manager in the open source group at intel and we have dozens of projects | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: trust me, you'd want a community manager that gets proper sleep.. | 20:21 |
| DawnFoster | sivang: I don't sleep much right now | 20:21 |
| DawnFoster | ok, I have to get off of irc to finish my presentation :) | 20:21 |
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| Stskeeps | have fun! | 20:22 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: sure, talk laters | 20:22 |
| javispedro | hehe | 20:22 |
| javispedro | waiting to hear it :) | 20:22 |
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| smoku | javispedro, I liked what Stskeeps did once. you have an app, plug in the device with USB and it takes care of everything. no place for error. if you have a non-booting device - try again. JustWorks(TM) | 20:22 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: as a general note: we need contacts in specs design and in more aspects of the project, not just a "community manager", so people can communicate things directly to not create bottlencks | 20:23 |
| sivang | the bottleneck effect has some dangerous consequences :) | 20:23 |
| sivang | anywa | 20:23 |
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| sivang | DawnFoster: have fun, talk later | 20:23 |
| smoku | javispedro, this is how firmware upgrades for HTC WinMo devices work. the app reboots the device in service mode, has total control over the devicea and MakesYouGood(TM) | 20:23 |
| DawnFoster | BTW, I should never be the bottleneck - people should be contacting others (governance pages, mailing lists, irc, etc.) | 20:23 |
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| sivang | DawnFoster: true, we need a "who does what" page with emails and responsibilities | 20:24 |
| DawnFoster | Things should never go through me unless they need to be escalated for some reason | 20:24 |
| javispedro | smoku: pretty much what I'd expect the Nokia windows-based upgrade to do..... and still... | 20:24 |
| DawnFoster | http://meego.com/about/governance | 20:24 |
| DawnFoster | all the links in the sidebar have tons of details | 20:24 |
| DawnFoster | we still have some gaps | 20:24 |
| DawnFoster | but we're getting there | 20:24 |
| RST38h | smoku:What if I somehow leave it in the service mode and hack it there? | 20:24 |
| smoku | RST38h, this is how we flashed custom roms :) | 20:25 |
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| javispedro | smoku: recently I've seen a XDA guy (android though, not winmo) that unpacked a firmware .img, replaced the rootfs with some other device's rootfs, and tried to flash the resulting .img | 20:25 |
| javispedro | of course, the net result was instant crap | 20:25 |
| RST38h | smoku: No, it will never become the iPhone :) | 20:25 |
| smoku | javispedro, i did it once for the sake of experiment :) | 20:25 |
| javispedro | but I guess you knew how to recover :) | 20:26 |
| javispedro | and that it would most probably fail. | 20:26 |
| smoku | sure. nevertheless the error messages provided valuable information :D | 20:26 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: whom do I talk to about the compliance spec? about other details that must be met to get a "meego" stamp, out of quality aspects? | 20:26 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: mats wichmann (mwichmann here) and mark skarpeness | 20:27 |
| Stskeeps | they're active on mailing lsit | 20:27 |
| lcuk | sivang, are you coming to the conf | 20:27 |
| DawnFoster | mark skarpness is listed on the governance page for compliance | 20:27 |
| sivang | lcuk: I am. | 20:27 |
| thiago | sivang: install meego core :-) | 20:27 |
| javispedro | smoku: well, poor guy here just started crying "my device is now BRICKED!!! waaaah!!" | 20:27 |
| lcuk | theres a talk about it that we could go to | 20:27 |
| DawnFoster | mwichmann is a good choice too, but these should go through the mailing list | 20:27 |
| sivang | thiago: I have a class 4 SD card :-/ | 20:27 |
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| sivang | thiago: you mean, on the laptop? | 20:27 |
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| thiago | sivang: oh, quality? | 20:28 |
| thiago | no idea then | 20:28 |
| smoku | javispedro, the question is did he learn something from it. :) | 20:28 |
| lcuk | cyas later anyway \o | 20:28 |
| sivang | this is what I get for compliance: | 20:28 |
| sivang | http://meego.com/about/compliance-program | 20:28 |
| sivang | am I blind or not looking at the right place? | 20:28 |
| Stskeeps | about -> governance | 20:29 |
| smoku | javispedro, unfortunately the usual approach is "i did something stupid, now YOU fix it!" | 20:29 |
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| Stskeeps | , sivang | 20:29 |
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| javispedro | smoku: exactly. (I couldn't btw, not an android guy...) | 20:29 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: wait ,m I'm checking :) I'm web navigation challanged today :) | 20:29 |
| DawnFoster | http://meego.com/about/governance/quality-assurance | 20:29 |
| DawnFoster | If you go to governance and click on all of the sidebar links, you see everyone in a named role | 20:30 |
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| mwichmann | sorry guys didn't see my name mentioned | 20:34 |
| sivang | DawnFoster: okay, I'm at - http://meego.com/about/governance/ , but under governance there's no mention for the compliance program, only in a higher level of the navigation bar | 20:34 |
| mwichmann | we've had compliance questions on meego-dev so people see them, as DawnFoster said | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: click 'quality assurance' | 20:34 |
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| mwichmann | the "program" still needs to be defined, tbh | 20:35 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: oh, no I want to see the people responsible to the compliance spec for example , does this go through quality? | 20:35 |
| * sivang clicks | 20:35 | |
| Stskeeps | sivang: at the moment, i suppose | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: i'm not entirely sure why n900 work happens under release engineering either, but for now, it's the best place :) | 20:35 |
| sivang | ah! | 20:35 |
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| sivang | Stskeeps: thank you! found it | 20:36 |
| sivang | I would love to see the compliance spec better visible there, not just under "quality" since it essnetially defines the core features of the os | 20:36 |
| sivang | mwichmann: ^ | 20:36 |
| sivang | or at least, of the core os that would get a meego stamp, holding to more criteria ofcouse | 20:36 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: well, organisational model is the problem really | 20:37 |
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| Stskeeps | sivang: the compliance stuff is at wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance , i think | 20:37 |
| mwichmann | yes right | 20:37 |
| mwichmann | at the moment a more accurate term than "defines" is "captures", since def'n is coming out of architects | 20:38 |
| mwichmann | however... the place it is now is the answer to "where should we hang it for now", expect it to move someday | 20:38 |
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| sivang | the spec or its draft can safely go in http://meego.com/about/compliance-program , if we note strongly enough this is ging to be only part of the conditions for compliance | 20:39 |
| sivang | but I need to run now | 20:39 |
| sivang | I should have gone an hour ago, but javispedro made me stay :-) | 20:40 |
| sivang | and I'm happy for that, thank you javispedro | 20:40 |
| javispedro | heh | 20:40 |
| sivang | mwichmann: then have somewhere on the main site "compliance spec is looking for feedback" not just on the wiki, but maybe it doesn't make sense. | 20:40 |
| sivang | anywa- | 20:40 |
| sivang | bbl | 20:40 |
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| Stskeeps | mwichmann: i wonder if it'd be an interesting way to maintain compliance specs in for example gitorious, and allow people to submit changes to it/having reviews in that tool.. | 20:41 |
| Stskeeps | a way to bring the compliance work into the open, as such | 20:41 |
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| sivang | (and already we target power users and above to meego.com) | 20:41 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: +1 | 20:41 |
| sivang | and I'm outnow, really | 20:41 |
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| javispedro | cya sivang | 20:42 |
| javispedro | hm... gitorious democracy! :) | 20:42 |
| mwichmann | I've considered converting it to docbook (from horrid Word :( ) to make it easier for people to do patches | 20:43 |
| Stskeeps | mwichmann: LaTeX, make it difficult ;) | 20:43 |
| mwichmann | I think *cough* some people dislike that idea though | 20:43 |
| Stskeeps | (in honesty, latex isn't a half bad idea, easily patchable..) | 20:43 |
| mwichmann | on the usual model, I've done lots of docbook and much less tex so guess which way I'd lean :) | 20:44 |
| sivang | mwichmann: regardless of the medium, you said only minor stuff taken to imrpvoe out of past experience, I would like to extend this greatly. | 20:44 |
| mwichmann | but anyway, for me I'd like to see the sources accessible and patchable | 20:44 |
| sivang | mwichmann: why not use wiki to edit it with a amster version secured? | 20:44 |
| sivang | edits | 20:44 |
| mwichmann | well, I don't have the Nokia experience to draw on | 20:45 |
| sivang | mwichmann: I don't have the moblin one | 20:45 |
| sivang | :) | 20:45 |
| mwichmann | I've drawn on what I've been through, but *ahem* some of that got tossed earlier | 20:45 |
| sivang | oh | 20:45 |
| mwichmann | "that's too complicated" | 20:45 |
| sivang | that'd is prpboably a good target for community discussions | 20:45 |
| mwichmann | I think we need to make a bunch of our own mistakes | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | mwichmann: if you'd like a brainstorm on making a compliance 'open' process at some point, feel free to poke me | 20:46 |
| sivang | because as we have learnd with Maemo, | 20:46 |
| sivang | the devil is in the dettails. | 20:46 |
| mwichmann | yup | 20:46 |
| sivang | timeless_mbp: > | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | mwichmann: if we can show a open compliance process we're already a lot better than other mobile OS'es ;) | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | (we already can, thanks to your drafts) | 20:46 |
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| sivang | timeless_mbp: sorry, see backlog when you have time | 20:47 |
| sivang | anyway- now without lying, my home calls me | 20:47 |
| mwichmann | stay in touch, guys | 20:47 |
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| timeless_mbp | mwichmann: making our own mistakes isn't worth it | 20:48 |
| mwichmann | that's perhaps a private discussion for someday | 20:48 |
| timeless_mbp | we look like the sum of two groups, so we are expected not to repeat the mistakes of either | 20:48 |
| mwichmann | for now let's say I worded that carelessly | 20:48 |
| sivang | and a lot were already made and created and contribute to the special atmosphere in #maemo | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: go! | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:49 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: : | 20:49 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: :) | 20:49 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: finished now, headed out. laters! | 20:49 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: (sorry) | 20:49 |
| mwichmann | <sivang> mwichmann: why not use wiki to edit it with a amster version secured? | 20:50 |
| mwichmann | as an experiment, the Handset profile is this way, pulled out of spec and now on wiki for editing | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | ah, didn't know that | 20:51 |
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| Stskeeps | URL? | 20:51 |
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| mwichmann | it's linked off that compliance page, hold on | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | btw, for good measure, stskeeps == carsten munk, the one who keeps on commenting the compliance specs :P just to put a name to the nick | 20:53 |
| mwichmann | http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance/HandsetProfile | 20:53 |
| Stskeeps | thanks | 20:53 |
| mwichmann | it doesn't highlight very much on the page, I notice | 20:53 |
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| Stskeeps | i guess we can use Talk: pages for discussion and have notifications for changes | 20:54 |
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| mwichmann | that would be fine | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | some procedure piece in header of page might be good | 20:55 |
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| Stskeeps | "Discussion will be conducted on Talk:Quality/Compliance/HandsetProfile , larger discussion on meego-dev@, please don't change document until approved by X, Y, Z in talk pages/discussion" | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | or something | 20:56 |
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| Myrtti | TEA DAMNIT | 21:00 |
| mwichmann | as good a proposal as I've heard, you want to drop that in? | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | can do | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | who's the initial approvers? | 21:00 |
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| lcuk | it is possible to "subscribe" to individual wiki pages is it not? | 21:01 |
| lcuk | so that when they are modified you can be informed | 21:01 |
| lcuk | this will be important for people who care about the content | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: yeah | 21:02 |
| mwichmann | I used to do that with moinmoin wikis, dunno if mediawiki has that feature tho | 21:02 |
| mwichmann | it's got a "watch" button so I guess so | 21:02 |
| lcuk | perhaps in the meta information pages and guidelines | 21:03 |
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| lcuk | it could be described, so that as with this important document, it can be monitored and maintained easily | 21:03 |
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| smithna | Does anyone know what the package "audio manager" does or where I can read up on it? (Google turned up nada) | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | mwichmann: refresh wiki and check out new text + talk page | 21:10 |
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| mwichmann | excellent, thanks | 21:12 |
| Stskeeps | np | 21:12 |
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| Stskeeps | and thanks for experimenting with this form of collab in this area :) | 21:14 |
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| lbt | mwichmann: hi | 21:15 |
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| Myrtti | I can haz tea ♥ | 21:16 |
| * lbt bought ground coffee for Dublin | 21:16 | |
| javispedro | no kthxbye | 21:16 |
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| lbt | and is taking his 1-cup filter .... mmmm | 21:16 |
| mwichmann | hi (distracted, in "irc conference" elsewhere) | 21:17 |
| lbt | np | 21:17 |
| tekojo | lbt: have you visited Finland once too often? | 21:17 |
| lbt | once? | 21:17 |
| lbt | mwichmann: I just wanted to follow up from the question in the TSG | 21:17 |
| tekojo | taking your coffee everywhere | 21:17 |
| lbt | wondered how it could get some chat around it | 21:17 |
| lbt | tekojo: yeah.... | 21:17 |
| lbt | as long as there's a kettle | 21:17 |
| Myrtti | as long as there's good italian roast and a moka pot... | 21:18 |
| Myrtti | nice earl gray is a bonus | 21:18 |
| * lbt has never smoked moka pot | 21:18 | |
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| mwichmann | earl gray, sigh, tastes good but the added stuff kind of obscures the tea itself | 21:19 |
| sivang | back | 21:20 |
| mwichmann | anyway... lbt - which question? | 21:20 |
| sivang | what did I miss? :) | 21:20 |
| thiago_home | tea, earl grey, hot | 21:20 |
| sivang | thiago_home: ahhh | 21:20 |
| lbt | mwichmann: MeeGo Application compliance re-position | 21:20 |
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| mwichmann | ah yes, that one | 21:20 |
| lbt | trying to provide a compliance for appsa | 21:20 |
| lbt | and at the same time | 21:20 |
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| sivang | tekojo: once too often? there can be no such thing. | 21:21 |
| mwichmann | honestly I don't know where best to conduct that | 21:21 |
| lbt | Graham Cobb suggested it's a marketing issue | 21:21 |
| Myrtti | mwichmann: I'll take any Earl Gray over Lipton Yellow Label | 21:21 |
| lbt | conceptually the compliance is well scoped | 21:21 |
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| lbt | "works anywhere... includes any deps" | 21:22 |
| mwichmann | Myrtti: yes, but over a nice nilgiri unpolluted by bergamot? | 21:22 |
| lbt | but it is positioned to imply that anything else is *non* compliant with MeeGo.... not that limited scope | 21:22 |
| Myrtti | mwichmann: unfortunately such choices aren't given often... atleast in Finland. | 21:22 |
| mwichmann | calling it a marketing issue is sort of correct | 21:22 |
| mwichmann | an appstore doesn't grok dependencies well | 21:22 |
| sivang | mwichmann: important note: some of the community people including me fear we might not get more chances to do mistakes (yes mistakes are going to be made no matter what) but there's a lot of data and knowledge out there already that cane help us reduce the error rate. THis is why we kind of feel passionate about it, we love what was achieved so far and think it is already better than any other alternative, but want to see it prospoer ang gain more adopti | 21:22 |
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| lbt | it's MeeGoappinabox compliant | 21:23 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: you got cut off | 21:23 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: ah.. | 21:23 |
| mwichmann | indeed, when I look for android apps and one lists a dep I tend to skip it | 21:23 |
| * sivang repastes | 21:23 | |
| Myrtti | sivang: you'll get cut off again | 21:23 |
| sivang | oh | 21:23 |
| sivang | Myrtti: how come? | 21:23 |
| Myrtti | sivang: start from "gain more adopti" | 21:23 |
| mwichmann | sivang: thought you went home? | 21:23 |
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| dneary | Hi | 21:23 |
| Myrtti | sivang: character limit of IRC | 21:23 |
| sivang | mwichmann: I reached home :-) | 21:23 |
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| lbt | mwichmann: that's OK ... but by labelling apps with deps as non-compliant with *meego* then you encorage their elimination from any app store | 21:23 |
| dneary | Isn't oFono GObject based? | 21:23 |
| dneary | Or am I mistaken? | 21:24 |
| sivang | mwichmann: gain more adoption and developers rather the other way around. | 21:24 |
| mwichmann | lbt: yes, I really want to avoid the "stigma" - everything works but you can't be compliant | 21:24 |
| lbt | instead they are non-compliant with the 'lowest common denominator' | 21:24 |
| lbt | *nod* | 21:24 |
| mwichmann | unless there's some other category | 21:24 |
| sivang | mwichmann: that said, your work is immensly appreciated and personally I thikn the direction is very good | 21:24 |
| lbt | anyhow... gotta go... wife is glaring | 21:24 |
| lbt | back later ;) | 21:24 |
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| dneary | Ah, looks at first glance like I'm mistaken | 21:28 |
| dneary | Uses glib, but not GObject | 21:28 |
| dneary | How about ConnMan? Same deal, I suppose? | 21:28 |
| mwichmann | so I'll reapeat the question that's sort of floated around | 21:28 |
| javispedro | dneary: same deal | 21:28 |
| mwichmann | what's the best way to tap into our collective knowledge over compliance "pitfalls" | 21:29 |
| javispedro | ... at least according to some blogs random rant about connman I recently read | 21:29 |
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| mwichmann | so it's a somewhat-persistent discussion | 21:29 |
| mwichmann | it's not really here (I already forgot stuff from yesterday :( ) | 21:29 |
| mwichmann | and I'm not sure it's meego-dev | 21:29 |
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| Stskeeps | mwichmann: well, setting up a work group of people from different fields and having monthly reports on compliance work might do the trick | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | then there's a focused set of changes that people can react to, etc | 21:32 |
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| * timeless_ sighs | 21:32 | |
| timeless_ | mwichmann: come to our presentation | 21:32 |
| sivang | http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond | 21:32 |
| sivang | err | 21:32 |
| sivang | mwichmann: http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond | 21:33 |
| timeless_ | take notes, or watch the video :) | 21:33 |
| sivang | mwichmann: we hope this is a start | 21:33 |
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| * timeless_mbp should work on slides | 21:33 | |
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| sivang | mwichmann: this is somethign set by the communty for the community (and vendors and verticals would benefit) to do exactly this, with the hope of coming up with basis for specs, brainstroming, decisions etc. the abstract actually explains just taht. | 21:34 |
| Noobmonk3y | lcuk , MohammadAG , Kathy's Knitting application almost done -> just need to get the save and load working, then figure out how to package!! | 21:35 |
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| MohammadAG | Noobmonk3y, this ain't #maemo :P | 21:35 |
| Noobmonk3y | hehehe, but it will work on meego | 21:36 |
| Noobmonk3y | if it uses qt | 21:36 |
| Noobmonk3y | planning ahead you see ;) | 21:36 |
| Noobmonk3y | all meego users need a knitting counter | 21:36 |
| Noobmonk3y | http://bit.ly/cJWdVo | 21:36 |
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| mwichmann | sivang, timeless_: okay I see it, wish I could be there | 21:37 |
| mwichmann | didn't get to come this time | 21:37 |
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| lcuk | good stuff Noobmonk3y :) | 21:38 |
| Noobmonk3y | :) - so, easiest way to package on a windows 7 pc without scratchbox? ;) | 21:39 |
| Myrtti | sun must be freezing | 21:40 |
| lcuk | Noobmonk3y, scratchbox not required. | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | mwichmann: we've asked for them to record it | 21:40 |
| MohammadAG | Noobmonk3y, upload to git and let someone else package it :P | 21:40 |
| timeless_mbp | and slides will definitely go up | 21:40 |
| Noobmonk3y | Moh lol | 21:40 |
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| Noobmonk3y | it packages into a deb on the device i assume, meh will go googley | 21:41 |
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| mwichmann | slides will be something, not like being there tho (sigh) | 21:41 |
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| vgrade | is going to miss the conf due to day job commitments :( | 21:43 |
| timeless_mbp | mwichmann: it took me lots of work to be able to go | 21:43 |
| Noobmonk3y | lcuk: assuming this is right? http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_Qt_Creator_Apps_for_Maemo_Extras | 21:43 |
| vgrade | unchecked the days on my conf account, is that all i need to do the cancel my reg | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | vgrade: there's an option for 'attending' or not, afaik | 21:44 |
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| vgrade | Stskeeps, thanks I'll have another look | 21:46 |
| vgrade | ah, you have to click on register panel which then gives you the option to cancel | 21:48 |
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| sivang | timeless_mbp: I've just emailed again to see status of audio/video as we did not get a response yet. | 21:48 |
| vgrade | rather like clicking on the start button to shutdown windows | 21:48 |
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| andre41 | what electricity sockets does Ireland have? same as UK? wondering whether I need an adapter | 21:49 |
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| javispedro | uk, yes | 21:51 |
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| javispedro | then again I think most hotels will sell adapters to you, or even have "universal wall plugs" (i've actually seen one of it today) | 21:52 |
| andre41 | thx | 21:52 |
| lcuk | javispedro, bring on the nuclear powered personal generators. | 21:53 |
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| javispedro | the N900 -- now with more atoms! | 21:54 |
| RST38h | javispedro: In the very worst case, some store at the airport will have overpriced adapters | 21:54 |
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| sivang | LHR has a shop where they sell universal adaptors, very cool | 21:56 |
| lcuk | is there some wizard around who could download/convert_to_png/reupload the photos in this wiki page: http://wiki.maemo.org/VideoEditor | 21:56 |
| lcuk | some of the ideas might be useful to the people doing the early bird sessions | 21:56 |
| lcuk | its layouts for a video editor we did during one of the conceptual design sessions http://www.forum.nokia.com/Design/Design_process/Getting_started/Conceptual_design.xhtml | 21:57 |
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| sivang | luck: you work for FN? | 21:59 |
| sivang | andre41: I might bring some more adaptors with me, so catch me up if you see me and ask if you don't get one until we're there | 22:00 |
| lcuk | sivang, no. these were sessions during the Maemo Barcelona long weekend. | 22:00 |
| andre41 | I still have a UK adapter from earlier UK conferences, but thanks :) | 22:01 |
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| wazd | http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/11/this-is-the-nexus-s/ | 22:02 |
| fiferboy | Hey wazd! | 22:02 |
| wazd | samsunginized n900 :) | 22:02 |
| wazd | fiferboy: heya :) | 22:02 |
| RST38h | wazd: Indeed, has become all round... | 22:03 |
| wazd | RST38h: looks cheap, as all samsung stuff | 22:03 |
| fiferboy | wazd: I'll be getting into Dublin an hour before you | 22:04 |
| wazd | fiferboy: hehe :) | 22:04 |
| RST38h | wazd: Well, it sells... | 22:04 |
| wazd | fiferboy: Lets wish not a year before me :) | 22:04 |
| fiferboy | wazd: Everything going smoothly? | 22:04 |
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| wazd | fiferboy: not quite, visa is *still* pending | 22:05 |
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| fiferboy | wazd: Fingers crossed! | 22:05 |
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| wazd | fiferboy: well, the wait will be over tommorow at 12:00 :) I will either get it or not :) | 22:05 |
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| * javispedro idly toys with his eu->uk adaptor | 22:08 | |
| javispedro | man, those uk plugs are big | 22:08 |
| javispedro | the uk iphone box must be like, double the size. | 22:08 |
| leinir | Nah, there bit you can take off has a UK plug on it... but yeah, it's about the size of the rest of the thing again ;) | 22:09 |
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| bambule | hi guys, i am a developer coming from an buildroot/openembedded background. to me this whole approach with OBS feels somehow alien. as an embedded developer i would feel much better with a local buildsystem that is creating the whole image from scratch (including the toolchain). this easily allows me to tweak every aspect of the system. how do you feel about OBS. Can you "sell" it to me? | 22:23 |
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| * javispedro raises his ear | 22:23 | |
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| timeless_mbp | bambule: install OBS locally? | 22:25 |
| bambule | yes, i know that i can do this. but on a first glance it doesn't look so straight forward | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | can i sell you scratchbox instead? | 22:26 |
| timeless_mbp | it's worse :) | 22:26 |
| bambule | much more complicated then "bitbake poky-image-sato" | 22:26 |
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| bambule | timeless_mbp: ? | 22:27 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: i know what scratchbox is | 22:27 |
| javispedro | and what do you think of it? | 22:27 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: hmm, the nice thing is that it actually prevents the "host from leaking into the target" | 22:28 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: i've spent quite some time adding cross compile targets to buildroot... | 22:28 |
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| timeless_mbp | which "it"? | 22:28 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: scratchbox | 22:28 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: ahhh, meant to say "cross compile open source packages for buildroot/ARM" | 22:29 |
| timeless_mbp | bambule: ok, any other "nice things" about it? | 22:29 |
| bambule | timeles_mbp: wasn't it you who wanted to sell it? ;-) | 22:30 |
| timeless_mbp | um | 22:30 |
| timeless_mbp | i offer two things for sale | 22:30 |
| timeless_mbp | bridges (brooklyn, golden gate) | 22:30 |
| timeless_mbp | HELl holes | 22:30 |
| timeless_mbp | scratchbox does not usually fall into the first category | 22:30 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: sorry, i've lost me | 22:31 |
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| timeless_mbp | bambule: some things are amazing, and worth reaching for | 22:31 |
| timeless_mbp | some are terrible and worth running away from | 22:31 |
| timeless_mbp | both are helpful for putting things in perspective | 22:31 |
| timeless_mbp | there's a sizable group of people who come to meego having spent roughly 5 years working with scratchbox | 22:32 |
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| timeless_mbp | most of them have learned to hate it | 22:32 |
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| timeless_mbp | some have just found ways to deal w/ its quirks | 22:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | others just accept the pain | 22:33 |
| javispedro | and then there's javispedro, who even likes it to some degree. | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | some went off in search of something better... and found OBS | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | some went off and tried to reduce scratchbox to virtually nothing | 22:33 |
| timeless_mbp | either in the form of sb2, or in the form of zero devkits | 22:34 |
| timeless_mbp | there's even a group which spent time trying to get scratchbox to do a reasonable job doing distributed compilation to deal w/ speed issues | 22:34 |
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| timeless_mbp | anyway, i don't have much experience w/ OBS | 22:36 |
| timeless_mbp | or any real experience w/ buildroot | 22:36 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: ok, so scratchbox has fallen in popularity and people started to use OBS at some point. | 22:36 |
| timeless_mbp | i've done basic cross compiles of things (gcc, gdb, mozilla) | 22:36 |
| timeless_mbp | there are lots of ways of doing things | 22:37 |
| timeless_mbp | and using more than one in a project leads to disasters | 22:37 |
| timeless_mbp | (i wonder if my slides will cover that, i'll have to try to) | 22:37 |
| timeless_mbp | you have to settle on one solution | 22:37 |
| timeless_mbp | and you can't spend lots of times arguing over water under the bridge | 22:37 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: still it doesn't feel good to me that i can't just compile the whole shebang. but i guess thats just me | 22:37 |
| * timeless_mbp ponders | 22:37 | |
| timeless_mbp | perhaps you want gentoo or bsd? | 22:38 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: thank you for the long explanation btw | 22:38 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: no i am not that kind of guy :-) | 22:38 |
| timeless_mbp | building mozilla used to take me 4 hours | 22:38 |
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| timeless_mbp | building openoffice was supposed to be 24+hours | 22:38 |
| timeless_mbp | i can't speak for today because i rarely do full builds | 22:38 |
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| timeless_mbp | building the entire world isn't fast | 22:39 |
| timeless_mbp | and isn't useful | 22:39 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: sure but who is doing open office builds for his handset? | 22:39 |
| timeless_mbp | um | 22:39 |
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| timeless_mbp | we include some portion of koffice iirc | 22:39 |
| timeless_mbp | sure it isn't openoffice, but it's close | 22:39 |
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| timeless_mbp | heck, historically building Qt alone was painfully slow | 22:39 |
| timeless_mbp | i didn't mind building mozilla from scratch daily | 22:39 |
| timeless_mbp | or gtk from scratch daily (as a prereq) | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | but building Qt was so slow that i had to cache it | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | (This was Qt2, around 1999 on Sparcs fwiw) | 22:40 |
| javispedro | building all of qt takes more than openoffice here | 22:40 |
| * timeless_mbp thanks javispedro for the reference point | 22:40 | |
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| javispedro | (due to webkit mostly... ) | 22:41 |
| timeless_mbp | unsuprisingly :) | 22:41 |
| achipa | timeless_mbp: was ? It still takes quite some time (in fact, am compiling 4.7 for Diablo as we speak under virtualbox, just to reexplore the sense of the word patience) :) | 22:41 |
| timeless_mbp | achipa: oh, i qualified in case i was wrong | 22:42 |
| timeless_mbp | i didn't expect to be wrong about today :) | 22:42 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: i guess i know what the different mindset is coming from. i've developed several commercial devices with a buildroot based system. these devices have a defined set of software packages (QT was part of it btw. so i know about the compile times). to do a full compile it took 3-4 hours but you only need to do this every few weeks. later in the development never. you think more along the line of a full distribution | 22:42 |
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| achipa | timeless_mbp: and since nowadays you will want to include QtM, MTF, components, whatever, in the end if becomes a very formidable build load :) | 22:43 |
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| timeless_mbp | achipa: yep yep | 22:43 |
| timeless_mbp | bambule: so, the reality is that people including yourself don't build everything all the time | 22:43 |
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| bambule | timeless_mbp: yes, but i remember that we had to switch the compiler versions, add some parameters to tweak performance on a certain CPU, we also needed to replace some very basic packages. to do this we just had to recompile (as opposed to creating an OBS instance). | 22:45 |
| * timeless_mbp shrugs | 22:46 | |
| timeless_mbp | very little difference really | 22:46 |
| bambule | timeless_mbp: OK, so i will try to setup on OBS over the weekend :-) | 22:46 |
| bambule | lets see how much pain it is | 22:46 |
| Stskeeps | bambule: grab an account on build.opensuse.org and look around | 22:46 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: not sure that its what i want. i want to run a full meego compile. | 22:47 |
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| Stskeeps | bambule: it is | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | bambule: what for? | 22:47 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: just for the sake of it | 22:48 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: well not just for the sake of it | 22:48 |
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| bambule | Stskeeps: for an embedded environment its important and not so uncommon to have a new platform that requires a recompile. and i want to know how much pain this is | 22:49 |
| bambule | with OBS/meego | 22:49 |
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| Stskeeps | bambule: have to get on laptop but will explain afterwards. in short: easy. bootstrapping (meego to mips first time, meego to sh4), hard. recompiling with various flags, bloody easy. | 22:53 |
| bambule | ok, sweet. i'll play a bit with build.opensuse.org | 22:54 |
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| Stskeeps | i just rebuilt for armv6 plus vfp in a week, with next to none involvement with the process | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | on a crap server | 22:55 |
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| GAN900 | If anybody still hasn't put their info here: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_2010/Flight_Information | 22:57 |
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| Stskeeps | bambule: so, i presume you understand the source and binary package approach - build once, install many? | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | rpm/apt/yum/zypper etc | 22:58 |
| * timeless_mbp grumbles | 22:58 | |
| bambule | Stskeeps: i've build RPM by hand before and know that you can have source and binary packages | 22:59 |
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| Stskeeps | bambule: right, so, in essense, OBS is a builder - you input source packages, it builds them depending on project configuration and dependancies within build targets | 23:00 |
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| Stskeeps | bambule: these project configurations can provide optimization flags, and when you make a global configuration change, it'll notice and recompile the whole bunch of patches in right order | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | err, packages, not patches | 23:00 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: ok, understood | 23:01 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: sounds good | 23:01 |
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| Stskeeps | it's possible to set up your own OBS as well, where you import src rpms and binary rpms to do your own rebuilds - or simply to build your own application packages against it | 23:02 |
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| Stskeeps | what it in essense is doing is constructing a build chroot where things get built within | 23:03 |
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| Stskeeps | on ARM, it dumps in the native arm packages, but also cross compilers built for x86, and provides a 'native build' kind of feeling. except it's not bloody slow. | 23:03 |
| Cosmo[PB] | anyone on pay as you go vodafone uk? | 23:03 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: but its always a chroot. so if i am cross compiling i have to take care that the host is not leaking in, right? | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | bambule: always a chroot - the cross compilation actually happens within the chroot | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | x86 binaries are entered and accelerated certain parts, bash, gcc, etc | 23:04 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: sure but its a cross compile | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | it is, except not the traditional kind :) | 23:05 |
| Stskeeps | let me grab a build log as an exmaple | 23:05 |
| timeless_mbp | Cosmo[PB]: i have PAYG O2 UK | 23:05 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: an example would be a good thing :-) | 23:05 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | omfg | 23:06 |
| Cosmo[PB] | oh sorry, wrong channel | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | bambule: http://pastie.org/1290975 - it constructs the chroot, installs packages into it. but it also installs these 'x86' packages. the x86 glibc is put in /emul-ia32 and the cross compiler is installed as is in /usr/bin/gcc for instance, the bash-x86 replaces /bin/bash, etc.. | 23:06 |
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| Stskeeps | it then chroots into the build root (with arm binaries and some x86 binaries) and launches the build | 23:07 |
| Stskeeps | qemu-arm binary emulation is good enough for building, these days | 23:07 |
| Cosmo[PB] | timeless_mbp: cool but it's a vodafone specific question | 23:07 |
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| Stskeeps | bambule: means no need for changes to source, just packaging, and it feels like a 'fast' ARM build machine | 23:08 |
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| Stskeeps | sigh | 23:12 |
| Stskeeps | why do people ping out when i explain things to them | 23:12 |
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| CosmoHill | because you're that kinda guy | 23:14 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: big brother is watching | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | i should start charging instead, maybe they'd stay.. | 23:15 |
| CosmoHill | just tell them to read the logs | 23:15 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:15 |
| CosmoHill | (you missed the first speaking, it will be $5 to hear this information again) | 23:15 |
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| newjor | hello.the os of my host machine is fedora 14.can install the sdk1.1 in it? | 23:26 |
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| newjor | hello.the os of my host machine is fedora 14.can install the sdk1.1 in it? | 23:28 |
| thiago_home | what does the wiki page say about fedora 14? | 23:28 |
| thiago_home | and why did you repeat? | 23:28 |
| Stskeeps | bambule: check channel logs in topic for my explanation until you pinged out :) | 23:29 |
| newjor | well,i haven't seen any about fedora 14 in wiki,please give me URL. | 23:30 |
| thiago_home | newjor: the announcement page has it | 23:31 |
| thiago_home | newjor: I don't know the URL by heart | 23:31 |
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| bambule | Stskeeps: ok | 23:41 |
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| newjor | thiago_home:sorry,i still can't find any about fedora 14,can you tell me whether fedora 13 is the top release for sdk1.1? thanks. | 23:42 |
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| thiago_home | newjor: no, I can't | 23:42 |
| thiago_home | I looked at the list of supported distros and mine isn't there | 23:42 |
| thiago_home | so I promptly forgot the list | 23:42 |
| bambule | Stskeeps: thanks btw | 23:44 |
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| Stskeeps | np | 23:47 |
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| Stskeeps | sleep time | 23:47 |
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