IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-08-22

vljwell with just one SS3 opcode, I don't think that boost regex performance are heavily increased...00:00
ali1234i dont think last paste is accurate00:01
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ali1234i think the one i made before is00:01
ali1234the one that says only glibc has any optimization00:01
ali1234and it looks like that is hand optmized, not from CFLAGS00:02
ali1234i'm beginning to wonder if gcc -march=core2 even does anything at all00:03
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vljwhere  does mic save files in /tmp ??00:09
timelesshey, thanks to mshaver and dawnfoster, http://mxr.meego.com/ is alive!00:12
CosmoHillI can hear the V-Festial :/ It's 3 miles away!00:17
lcukRIAA are already on their way00:18
* CosmoHill watches The Bourne Identity on ITV100:19
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lcuktimeless, I didn't know it did incremental searching with feedback00:21
lcukthats a clever bit of processing00:21
timelessain't it?00:21
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timelessno js required either00:21
timeless.. turn js off and try :)00:21
timelesshttp://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2164 <- the last comment there reminds me of nokia bugs :(00:22
timelessand yeah, the incremental stuff is indeed very cool, i'm very proud of it :)00:23
lcukhmm timeless00:24
lcukqt-creator is in meego itself?00:24
lcukis that the runtime?00:25
lcukie can I use qt-creator on device?00:25
timelessif you're looking in /meego/, it's whatever crap i could find00:25
lcuk(i just searched for maemo and was having a look through00:25
timelessif you're looking in repo.meego.com00:25
lcukI am using mxr.meego.com00:25
timelessthen i'm assuming it's device targetted00:25
lcukand just poking around00:25
timelessmxr has 2 meego reoots00:25
timelesss/re/r/00:25
infobottimeless meant: mxr has 2 meego roots00:25
lcukhttp://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/search?string=maemo&find=&findi=&filter=^[^\0]*%24&hitlimit=&tree=repo.meego.com00:25
timelessah, afaik that means it's in some device facing repo00:26
lcukso is this the mxr for handset?00:26
timelessum, probably not00:26
* timeless goes to look00:26
lcukI clicked the repo.meego.com link on mxr.meego.com00:26
timelessyeah00:27
impjein Qt-Creator, DISPLAY :2 doesn't seem to be right for my QEMU handset installation. How can I find the right settings?00:27
timelessum00:28
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smhargreetings00:28
smharI have an N900 an I love it so much. There are so many things -small and big- missing but still, it is the best mobile/phone/tablet/computer or whatever name Nokia and others want to call it :-)00:30
smharI have started learning Python just to develop for it, and -who knows- may start leaning C++ too.00:31
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smharNow, my question is: I want to develop some applications that are missing or not complete in N900/maemo, but every body knows, it has a short life, I do not want my application to be dead by the time Meego is available and ready to replace it in N900.00:32
timelessum, don't assume such a short life :)00:33
impjesmhar: It should be possible to port your Maemo-apps to MeeGo very easily00:34
timelessif you write for Qt, you should be able to run on both platforms00:34
smharI know that meego will run the python+pyqt programs, but how to make sure that by the time my application is ready -since I am still learning- a better stock application is available and built-in00:35
smharis there an image I can use in my computer to see/check/develop and cross check?00:36
vljsmhar: meego for netbook00:37
vljor meego sdk00:38
lcukhey timeless, you don't include filenames in the indexes?00:38
smharand is there a road map for what is planned for N90 for mobiles00:38
smharn90000:38
vljimpje: it is the DISPLAY variable that identify your xephyr instance00:39
smharvlj, what does the meego sdk include?00:39
vlja prebuild image of meego00:39
smharcause I am downloadin Nokia Qt SDK right now00:39
vljwell this is 2 differents things00:40
vljmeego sdk allows you to run an image of meego in your current linux environment00:40
smharvlj, I know,. I mean what other things other that the meego image?00:40
vljnokia qt sdk allows you to develop for symbian/maemo00:40
vljwell, I think that's all00:41
lcukwindows00:41
vljbut without it you can't test your meego map00:41
lcuklinux00:41
lcukmac00:41
smharvlj, so it has the image + emulator, or is it a vm/ vb image?00:41
vljlcuk: it runs on windows too ?00:41
lcukvlj, isn't Qt's old motto, code once, deploy anywhere..00:41
vljsmhar: on linux it has just an image, which is chrooted00:41
lcukor something similar00:41
vljlcuk: true for nokia qt sdk00:42
vljbut I never saw meego-sdk for windows00:42
vljit ships in a .run format :/00:42
impjevlj: should I set the DISPLAY variable inside the running virtual MeeGo and then make sure that I use the same setting in Qt-Creator? (I am using qemu)00:42
vljimpje: no idea sorry. Try both ;)00:43
* lcuk shrugs00:43
vljI just know that running meego in linux with a manually launched Xephyr needed shared DISPLAY with host os00:43
vlj(with meego sdk)00:43
vljbut meego sdk does use chroot I think00:44
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impjevlj: Thanks. I'll just play mess around with the settings some more00:47
smharis meego handset what megoo for mobile phones is called?00:48
vljyup00:49
vlj(brb)00:52
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timelesss/megoo/meego/00:57
CosmoHillSmeegol!00:57
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* CosmoHill looks at the Nokia E5201:22
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CosmoHillwould Meego ever work on a ARM 11 368Mhz processor with 128MB of RAM01:31
lbthow much swap :)01:32
CosmoHillerm01:32
CosmoHillit has 256MB NAND01:32
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CosmoHillI have a Nokia 6220c complete with ill-fitting case and electrical tape01:33
CosmoHillJust been looking at a E5201:34
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ali1234latest results -D: http://pastebin.com/LQRXWhbZ01:49
ali1234most of it looks like not-executable code, i think -d is the way to go01:50
lbtali1234: watcha up to?01:50
ali1234lbt: scanning for unsupported opcodes01:51
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lbtso identifying packages in the released OBS that use ssse301:51
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ali1234packages on the meego repos, yeah01:51
lbtmega01:51
ali1234i think that using -D just generates a load of false positives01:52
ali1234objdump -D that is01:52
ali1234with -d, the only packages that show up are glibc, and things that static link glibc01:52
ali1234and the only optmized things in glibc seem to be hand coded01:52
lbtso if we can identify those packages that actually have/use ssse3 then we can potentially enable ssse3 for *only* those in MeeGo core01:52
lbtand just rebuild variants without in the community OBS ?01:53
ali1234so my theory is that gcc never generates ssse3/sse4 opcodes01:53
ali1234or iow -march=core2 is meaningless01:53
lbtwell, thiago_home found some01:54
lbtif you can identify that package list that would be very useful01:54
ali1234perhaps my method is not good enough01:56
ali1234it does check every elf binary in every rpm in core though01:56
ali12341.0.1 core that is01:56
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lbtmaybe ask in #gcc ?01:56
ali1234not a bad idea01:57
ali1234i need to figure out how to make objdump use the debugging symbols, that might help01:58
ali1234a lot of the opcodes can't be accurately traced to a function, if that function is not exported, i guess01:58
ali1234the only thing i am absolutely certain of is that glibc has ssse3 instructions in it02:01
ali1234but they might be guarded02:01
lbtyeah, that's trivial to rebuild :)02:08
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lcukali1234, you mention -D causing false positives, -D to what tool?02:09
ali1234lcuk objdump02:09
CosmoHillali1234: cool02:10
CosmoHillkeep up the good work02:10
lcukhmm ali1234 why are you disassembling all sections in the first place?02:10
lbtali1234: glibc has : glibc-atom-memory-string-opt-tillto-20100226.patch02:10
ali1234lcuk i dunno, why not?02:10
lcukbinaries are built up of lots of data hunks02:11
lcukwhich have nothing to do with opcodes, but can look like it02:11
ali1234lbt does it define stuff like strcmp_ssse3()02:11
lcukwhich may be where the false positives are coming from02:11
ali1234lcuk yeah i know this, and i am fairly sure that's what is happening02:11
ali1234lcuk but when i run with -d *nothing* is optmized except glibc02:11
ali1234not X, not Qt, not anything02:12
lcuk:)02:12
ali1234in about 10 minutes i'll show you the new log of that02:12
* lcuk nods02:12
ali1234a full run takes about 30 minutes on quad core (it runs checks in parallel)02:12
lcukwhat you need to do is to build something you *KNOW* uses a few of these instrucitons02:12
lbtali1234: http://pastebin.com/UhVwN0UA02:12
lcukinserted with inline asm02:12
lcukso you can validate02:12
lcuk?02:12
ali1234lbt memmove, yeah that's one that shows up on -d02:13
ali1234this patch has lots of hand coded asm :)02:13
lbtso /me revises trivial to "not that hard I hope"02:13
ali1234__bcopy_ssse3 is another one that -d finds02:13
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vljwell empathy actually supports irc02:14
ali1234lcuk i know that -d is finding *some* of the opcodes, question is, does it find all?02:15
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ali1234-D finds more but some of them are obvious false positives02:15
ali1234question is, are *all* of them false?02:15
ali1234i think the answer is yes, personally, but i have no proof :)02:15
ali1234(yes to both)02:15
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ali1234lbt: that patch is pretty much exactly what i expected to find given what objdump tells me02:16
ali1234and if i am correct, the hand coded stuff is the only incompatible stuff in all of meego core 1.0.102:17
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lcukdoes that mean that gcc itself has support for the instructions but finds no mechanism to actually use them within its optimiser phases?02:18
lcukor imply rather02:18
lbta process to allow us to identify "contaminated" (!) packages would be great... it'll hugely speed up building a community respin02:18
lcukno proof yet as you say02:18
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ali1234lcuk yeah it implies that02:18
lcukthat would make sense in a way02:19
ali1234maybe gcc 4.5 has better optimization routines for core202:20
lcukdo the SSSE3 instrucitons get scratched and cleaned at any time02:20
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lcukI am thinking nope02:20
ScottishDuckI don't recall it adding any02:20
ali1234i would dl meego daily bins but i'm getting close to my download limit after downloading all the source and half of fedora and opensuse packages while playing with OBS :)02:20
ali1234lcuk i dunno what you mean by "scratched and cleaned"02:21
lcukali1234, lbt, even if its only in glib, the implication of it being in (indirect) use in every application is confirmed by that patch in memmove, a heavily utilised function and a good place for that kind of optimisation02:21
lcukali1234, if gcc were to randomly use registers without maintaining an allocation table it would stomp on its own code generated02:22
ali1234i guess, it's not something i usually worry about :)02:22
lcukwhen doing compilation it stored a list of registers its using and does the work based on moving things in and out of it respecting them02:22
lcukyeah, if you do inline asm, you have to tell the compiler which registers you are using etc02:22
lbtlcuk: yes - but you'd expect glibc to be capable of dynamic cpu identification02:23
lcuklbt, potentially, but that implies a jump table or dynamic checking on every instruction call02:23
lcukagain suboptimal02:23
lcuk(i mean jumptable within the already existing jumptable from outside)02:24
lbtno.. it implies an "on load" change to the table02:24
ali1234self patching code :)02:24
ali1234anyway given it generates symbols like xxx_ssse3 i'd say it is doing that02:24
lcukself modifying code is banned i nthe 1992 world treaty or something02:24
ali1234but no guarantee that the non-ssse3 version exists in the binary02:24
lbtlike I say... rebuilding glibc should be no biggy02:25
lcuklbt, it would need 2 jumptables, one external as you are thinking for the library itself, and another for internal calls02:25
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lcukand it wouldnt be able to do inlines etc02:25
ali1234this is the latest report with -d : http://pastebin.com/EnX9EnY102:25
lbtlcuk: OK ... I don't go that deep into compilers02:25
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* lbt has spent all night building and documenting debian clients on opensuse Xen so we can setup more community VMs02:26
lbtand a community admin trac/wiki02:26
lbtwhich no-one will ever see :(02:27
* lcuk gets lbt a beer02:28
lcukshare the links in different places02:28
lcukand make sure people see them02:28
lcuk(not necessarily thinking here :P)02:28
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ali1234latest version of my scripts if you want to see how it works, or run it yourself: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/cpucheck-0.2.tar.gz02:29
lbtlcuk: --> msg02:29
ali1234supplied scripts to check single file, whole rpm, or whole directory full of rpms02:29
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CosmoHillbye04:00
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quetzalzunHi all.10:52
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amjadhi quet10:58
quetzalzunhi amjad, I'm keeping an eye on moblin and a litle on meego, more in mailing list than here11:01
quetzalzunIt supuse I am doing a communication research about ways of doing free software11:02
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amjadok,but intel is going meego way, so not too sure if moblin will be maintained11:02
quetzalzunI dont it will, but I am doing the analysis abot moblin11:05
quetzalzunsorry,11:05
quetzalzunI dont think moblin will be still be maintained11:05
amjadok11:05
quetzalzunbut my research is about moblin11:06
amjadso what you want to know from meego folks??,11:06
lbtI don't think that's really correct11:07
lbtmaemo and moblin merged and got renamed meego11:07
lbtmoblin is not "dead"11:07
lbtit is alive and well ...11:07
lbtfrom an OSS point of view11:07
quetzalzunI have some questions about the relations between developers, vendors and users.11:07
lbt(ie much of the code traces back to moblin) ... of course if you're talking marketing... whole different story11:08
lbta lot of us have questions about that trinity :)11:09
quetzalzunI think is both, marketing and code development11:09
lbtyou're wrong :)11:09
lbtthe name has changed... the code changelogs are continuous from moblin to meego11:10
quetzalzunand yes, I wondering wich kind of beneffits get each goup with the interaction with others11:10
lbtno more releases will be made using the moblin name11:10
lbtvendors get a very cost effective OS11:10
quetzalzunBTW sorry for my english11:10
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lbtdevelopers get paid to work on it11:11
lbtusers get the benefits of lower costs since the work is co-operative and has no artificial "microsoft tax"11:11
lbt"virtuous circle"11:12
quetzalzunand Intel and Nokia?11:15
quetzalzunhow an FOSS project benefit them?11:15
lbtjust vendors with strategic vision11:15
lbtit already does11:15
lbtlets say 200 people work on MeeGo11:15
quetzalzunok11:16
lbtNokia may pay for ~90 but gets the benefit of 200...that's cheap labour :)11:16
lbt(a few are volunteers or from smaller partners)11:16
quetzalzuncan we count there in those smaller partners to trolltech?11:18
lbtThey also know that MeeGo isn't designed to be obsolete and to force (licensed + costly) upgrade cycles like some OSes we know11:18
lbtnot really ... nokia bought trolltech :)11:18
lbtbut in many ways that was just another way of hiring more developers11:18
lbtIVI has people working on MeeGo11:19
lbtthat's an automotive consortium11:19
lbtlook at the sponsorship/partners pages for more companies11:20
lbtbut that's the basic model11:20
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quetzalzunvendors contribute both with financial sponsorship and people? code?11:22
lbtyes11:22
lbtand, importantly, by adding to the 'weight' of meego11:22
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lbtdemonstrating viability increases the percieved value of MeeGo to other potential vendors11:23
quetzalzunsomething like increase the value of a product with users11:23
lbtsimilar ... but that case is based on predicted revenue streams11:24
lbtthis is based on predicted value11:24
lbtslightly different11:24
quetzalzunnice11:24
Stskeepslbt, i think i am close to having bootstrapped non-ssse3 meego11:25
lbtneat... are you on the maemo obs?11:25
Stskeepsyeah11:25
Stskeepshome:stskeeps:ssse3_bootstrap11:25
lbtali1234 was working on identifying it last night11:26
Stskeeps:nod:11:26
Stskeepsthere's a bit of circular dependancies, so i've temporarily disabled gcc and glibc builds11:26
quetzalzunthanks lbt, I will think a little about this ;)11:26
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lbtI could do with some opinions on the "Trunk" project layout11:26
Stskeepsalso, there's something wrong with your ssl tunneling11:26
Stskeepsit peers very often for larger loads11:26
lbtquetzalzun: np :) .... posting something to the ml if you write it up would be cook11:26
quetzalzunshure11:27
Stskeepscouldn't do a client-side copy of vim or even commit it manually11:27
lbtStskeeps: for maemo obs11:27
lbtX-Fade is the nw guy there11:27
Stskeepsk11:27
Stskeepsjust noting it :)11:27
lbthe's had some issues and iirc put varnish in to help11:28
lbtthe meego one is a bit more straightforward (for now)11:28
Stskeeps:nod:11:28
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lbtis it causing real problems or just niggles?11:28
Stskeepscan't upload vim, but not an important package for build (..)11:29
lbtwhat error ?11:29
Stskeepssec11:29
* Stskeeps tries to upload im again11:29
Stskeepsvim11:29
lbtaside... I noticed the gcc chat yesterday... that looks evil11:30
Stskeepsthe patch?11:31
lbtI may have misunderstood11:31
Stskeepsit can be done in a better way, yes, but baselining is a normal practice11:31
lbtbut Meego core gcc forces ssse3?11:31
Stskeepseven on arm11:31
lbtor defaults?11:31
Stskeepsthat's a good question11:31
Stskeepscan you do -mno-ssse3? :P11:31
lbtthis stuff makes me really wonder about hidden agendas11:32
lbtalthough I could just be paranoid11:32
ali1234i don't think so11:33
Stskeepslbt: it's a fairly normal practice to baseline similar to this, but patch is formed in a way so you can't even do -mcpu=atom11:34
ali1234it's never been explained why they decided not to base meego off some other distro11:34
ali1234as it stands, meego is not even self-hosting11:35
Stskeepsum, sure it is11:35
lbtmaybe we should enhance the patch to allow for deselection... functionally the same but negatable11:35
ali1234you've compiled every single meego rpm on a real machine running meego? (not inside OBS)11:35
ali1234(since you'll note meego does not have OBS packages)11:36
Stskeepsali1234: that might simply be cos OBS includes packages normal build dep doesn't..11:36
Stskeepsscratchbox syndrome ;)11:36
ali1234that's not the point11:36
pupnik_hows meego pulseaudio going11:36
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lbtali1234: OBS only uses meego packages in the chroots11:37
lbtit is, by definition, self hosting11:37
ali1234lbt: so when meego has an OBS package, meego will be self hosting11:37
lbta standard meego image may not be build-essential complete11:37
lbtno11:37
lbtOBS is not needed to build meego11:37
ali1234maybe that's true11:38
lbtobs is nothing but a chroot hoster11:38
ali1234there is no current tested and documented method that anybody can use to build all of meego11:38
lbtheh....11:38
Stskeeps...........................................................................SSL Error: (104, 'Connection reset by peer')11:38
lbthmm11:38
lbttimeout...?11:39
pupnik_most straightforward way to implement that is script modules maintained by the people who have built the current packages11:39
pupnik_imo11:39
ali1234if they based on another distro this would not be a problem since that distro's tools could be used11:39
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pupnik_'here are the commands i used'11:39
Stskeepslbt: dunno11:39
ali1234but if any tom dick and harry could do it, then it would be really easy to run it on competitor's hardware11:39
pupnik_at least you can get compliance/participation when you make i simple enough11:39
lbtpupnik_: and that's what we're aiming for11:40
lbtX-Fade is offline atm11:40
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ali1234so i have to ask, what do they actually gain from going alone?11:41
pupnik_if you have to track meta information, you really need to demonstrate need.  i hate people who have to architect everything11:41
Stskeepsali1234: what distro does fedora base off? :P11:41
ali1234Stskeeps: uh... red hat?11:41
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TermanaN900lol11:41
Stskeepsand redhat?11:41
lbtali1234: can you see where this is going...11:41
Stskeepsbesides that, rebuilding meego is a matter of importing prjconf, binary packages, source packages11:42
ali1234red hat has been around for 17 years, and has a very mature toolset11:42
lbtali1234 stop saying "well, if *I* was solving this problem I wouldn't start from here"11:42
lbtwe are where we are11:43
ali1234heh, no, nokia and intel are where they are11:43
lbtif you don't like it then invent a time-machine and fix it11:43
TermanaN900Besides, Fedora isnt Red Hat11:43
ali1234if you choose to join them, that's up to you11:43
TermanaN900Red Hat pulls from Fedora11:43
* lbt checks what chan ali1234 is in... oh, #meego11:43
ali1234and you can say "well if you;re not with us you're against us" if you want11:44
lbtand given the work you've done on obs etc I assumed you were "we"11:44
ali1234but intel are saying the same thing, that is, when they are not talking about how great the meego community is going to be11:44
lbtwhereas you'd rather be a doomsayer... sure.. that's easy11:44
ali1234i'm not saying the project is doomed11:45
ali1234i think intel and nokia will do well with it11:45
lbthttp://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/785511:45
ali1234but i think they'll continue to shut out ... outsiders11:45
pupnik_i think there's still room for meego to do something *more* developer friendly11:45
lbtpupnik_: err... yeah!11:45
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lbtfrankly I think intel are shooting meego in the foot11:46
lbtit's not fatal but it bloody hurts11:46
ali1234if meego was serious about working with the community, they would work with it, instead of trying to build a new one11:46
pupnik_and that could be the draw for some - if the subsystems are high-performance, developers can get better results on meego than android11:46
MohammadAG51ali1234, off topic but weren't you discussing psx emulators and hildon-desktop two months ago in #maemo?11:46
pupnik_at least games11:46
ali1234MohammadAG51: yeah11:46
pupnik_i fear there may be something of a mhz war developing in the phone arena11:47
ali1234MohammadAG51: have they figured out how to make them run full speed yet?11:47
MohammadAG51not that i know of, but that's off topic here ;)11:47
ali1234not if you port it to meego11:47
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pupnik_it should be ported to meego: not offtopic11:47
pupnik_but first imho when the gpu portion is running11:48
TermanaN900The answer is simple - if you don't like what the community is doing with MeeGo, you have no obligation to be here or participate11:48
pupnik_since we require the damn opengl anyway :|11:48
pupnik_i wouldn't mind so much rendering via software if all transitions and compositing were user-disablable11:49
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ali1234TermanaN900: which community are you talking about exactly?11:49
TermanaN900ali1234, the MeeGo community. This community. The people here contributing to MeeGo11:50
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ali1234TermanaN900: so you mean intel and nokia then...11:51
ali1234the "official" community11:51
* MohammadAG51 facesmacks11:51
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TermanaN900ali1234, no. I mean the community.11:51
TermanaN900Intel and Nokia employees are apart of this community11:52
ali1234so whom outside of intel and nokia has contributed to meego?11:52
Stskeeps<-11:52
Stskeeps:P11:52
ali1234Stskeeps: aren't you paid by nokia?11:52
MohammadAG51LOL11:52
ali1234i thought they hired you?11:52
JaffaTermanaN900: "Intel and Nokia are apart from this community" or "Intel and Nokia are a part of this community"? ;-)11:52
Stskeepswas under my maemo.org work11:52
TermanaN900Jaffa, lol sorry the second one :P11:53
Stskeepsali1234: as well as people sending patches, etc11:53
* lbt <----11:53
Stskeepsthings are picking up.11:53
lbtI have paid and unpaid contributions to meego11:53
ali1234ok, so what about all the people who contributed directly to the kernel? are they part of the meego community?11:53
lbtno11:53
ali1234what about the people who worked on Qt before meego even existed?11:53
lbtare they part of the Ubuntu community?11:54
ali1234i don't know, ask canonical11:54
ali1234they decide who is part of their community11:54
lbtare debian contributors to the kernel part of the pulseaudio community?11:54
Stskeepslbt: it is an interesting problematique. to some extent, they're doing the right thing - if someone wants to take a shovel, create a non-SSSE3 they are able to do this. once there's a substansial reason to have non-SSSE3 SDK defaults (cos of an installable base), - they can't deny patches to fix 'blockers'.. but why would a manager from OSTC approve they spend money on something that would actually sell less atom processors? ...11:55
Stskeeps... (non-SSSE3 build target on build.meego.com)..11:55
ali1234so in order to be in the meego community, you have to have patches submitted directly to meego?11:55
ali1234presumably they have to be accepted to11:55
lbtStskeeps: OTOH that's an Intel argument... not a MeeGo one11:55
ali1234which means that the maintainer of the software dictates who is in the community11:55
ali1234and guess who that is11:55
lbtStskeeps: and I think people get their hats confused11:56
ali1234i'm not saying there is anything wrong with this11:56
ali1234it just ... is11:56
Stskeepslbt: yes and no - MeeGo seems to center around the feature being assigned to a person who then makes sure there's resources to get things done11:56
Stskeepslbt: if nvidia wants to sponsor build capacity cos meego IT says they need that for non-SSSE3, that should be possible11:56
lbtI agreee - but the success (and requirements) of meego depends on openness too11:56
Stskeepsif someone wants to donate extra build space for community/everyone to work on non-SSSE3, that should be possible too11:57
ali1234when you say "you're either with us or against us" you are saying "you're not welcome in this community unless you use meego the way we tell you"11:57
Stskeepsbut nothing in life is free11:57
lbtI think the problem I see is that when they submit a patch that prevents that being used elsewhere11:57
lbt"all patches should be able to go upstream"11:57
lbt"no meego specific patches"11:57
lbtand ffs ... prjconf?11:58
timeless_mbpStskeeps:  hey, could mxr.meego.com be added to the topic? :)11:58
Stskeepslbt: no meego specific patches is impossible and i haven't seen that policy.. for kernel it makes sense11:58
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: too full already, get it linked on wiki or meego.com somehow11:59
lbtI thought it was a goal11:59
lbtnot a constraint11:59
lbtin principle we should have a minimal patch load11:59
lbtone of the metrics I'll be looking at will be patch load12:00
Stskeeps:nod:12:00
w00t_I wonder if the Qt patches have been cleaned up12:02
w00t_there were some pretty odd ones in there when I looked shortly after the initial release12:02
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Stskeepslbt: perhaps it's time to ask if there's an actual market and vendors interested in non-SSSE3 and why12:06
lbtmy original arguement was that non-ssse3 was about ensuring minimum barrier to entry for community12:06
ali1234do AMD even make mobile chips?12:06
lbtnot about commercial viability12:07
Stskeepslbt: right12:07
* Stskeeps ponders12:07
Stskeepsso, nvidia ion isn't a problem cos that's an atom processor12:08
sx0n|homeis there list of supported chipsets ?12:08
lbtbbiab12:08
Stskeepsvia nano has SSSE3..12:09
odin_how much ram do meego OBS worked need each ?12:10
sx0n|homeimo other issue is supported (intel) graphics, or are all supported.12:10
ali1234odin_: i ran 2 workers on 2GB of ram and 512MB swap partitions each12:11
odin_s/worked/workers/  i.e. are there some packages needing gobs of ram ?12:11
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ali1234i compiled gcc OK in that12:11
odin_I have 3 x dual quad core HP DL360/380 in data centre to attack building of i686/n8x0, run stuff but 2 are mostly idle, if I can get workers down to 1Gb ram each I can prolly get a farm of 6 up somehow12:14
ali1234Stskeeps: anyway, the ssse3 issue is not one of selling devices without ssse3, it's the fact that my development machine can run ubuntu, fedora, windows, android, even meego arm - all at the same time. but not meego x8612:15
Stskeepsali1234: the question is however how generic the circumstances is - i mean, i don't really compile platform stuf locally12:15
Stskeepsyou get used to working straight with obs12:15
ali1234OBS is no use if i can't run the binaries in gdb on a decent fast machine12:16
MohammadAG51hmm, how long does meego usually take to boot up12:17
Stskeepswhat do you see on screen?12:17
odin_maybe intel can provide kernel assisted SSSE3 support ?  there is no reason why the General Protection Fault can't be handed off the qemu-ssse3 to do the work and then control passed back to the application12:18
MohammadAG51a _12:18
MohammadAG51which just scrolled down12:18
MohammadAG51X is starting i'd say12:18
MohammadAG51started, this takes time...12:19
odin_to be honest with, if you know about Linux signal handling you can trap the SIGILL yourself in the application and emulate the SSSE3 instructions :)12:19
ali1234odin_: yes the instructions can be emulated in kernel12:19
ali1234or in a library12:19
MohammadAG51Stskeeps, is xterm broken on meego atm?12:19
ali1234i don't really care as long as the x86 SDK includes such a library to make it work12:19
StskeepsMohammadAG51: possible12:20
Stskeepsali1234: i'm looking at sseplus by AMD12:20
odin_so anyone know of an open source SSSE3 implementation ?  I could probably explain how to whip it into a signal handler12:21
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MohammadAG51Stskeeps, and I'm assuming it has an ssh server installed?12:22
StskeepsMohammadAG51: right12:22
Stskeepsodin_: http://developer.amd.com/cpu/Libraries/sseplus/Pages/default.aspx might be a start12:22
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sx0n|homeodin_: could it be done by compiler? http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/i386-and-x86_002d64-Options.html12:24
odin_if someone wants to package up a bunch of functions implementing SSSE3, like hand optimized assembler, I will both confirm SIGILL works like SIGSEGV and do you a proof of concept which you can polish up12:24
ali1234there is already a kernel patch that can do this12:25
odin_yes a mix of compiler and assembler, some *.S files and *.c files12:25
ali1234http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0206.3/0631.html12:26
odin_I don't know, only know that it is possible from both kernel and user-space12:26
ali1234can you look at GCC? see what code would get optimized into SSSE3 calls, then write it, and compile it with/without -mssse312:27
odin_that link relates to linux 2.4 from 2002 ?12:27
ali1234odin_: yeah it emulates 486 instructions on 38612:27
odin_ali1234, yes yes ^^^ this I have put the question to gcc-list and intend to spend time on12:27
ali1234given the results of scanning for ssse3, it looks like gcc never generates any of it anyway12:29
odin_ali1234, I need to research and understand the responses and also the background reading about how other platforms do it.. I noticed recently binaries have an ELF section .note.ABI-tag and also want to understand this purpose12:29
Stskeepsthere is technically no reason why a kernel couldn't catch SSSE3 instructions.12:30
ali1234Stskeeps: the problem isn't catching them, it's what to do after you caught one12:30
odin_yes yes this is my belief too and I think the intel developers on the linux are trying to defend -mtune=atom for performance and are getting confused with -march=ssse312:30
ali1234i don't think they are confused12:30
Stskeepsodin_: i don't think they're confused, there's a benefit to ssse3.12:31
odin_nor do I, more like selective obfuscation of the problem12:31
ali1234i don't normally attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, but intel guys are smarter than that12:31
ali1234which unfortunately only leaves malice :(12:31
Stskeepsor choice12:31
odin_what applications modify the SIGILL handler ?  I bet almost none, so it maybe possible to effect a solution in userspace first12:31
sx0n|homelinux needs good hw supporty.12:31
ali1234yes, another choice which cannot be explained given the existence of other options12:32
odin_which can be setup by a modified dynamic linker for every executable, this would not quite be as invisible as a kernel based one but would allow rapid development and testing to then seek to move it to the kernel12:32
odin_the objection here is simply to interoperability problems due to the quick and dirty method to enforce SSSE3, I still regard the desire for maximum optimization to be a worthy goal and Intel just need guiding in a better direction12:35
ali1234no, it's clear they have drawn a line in the sand and will not discuss the issue in a sensible way12:36
odin_then we make it damage their pockets somewhat12:36
odin_control the SDK12:36
ali1234um... what do you mean?12:36
odin_control the media12:37
w00t_glwt12:37
Stskeepsnow, who's the malice using ones here?12:37
Stskeeps:P12:37
ali1234you're crazier than me if you think a bunch of nerds have more control over the media than intel12:37
odin_there is nothing stopping rolling a fixed SDK in a separate OBS, but this SDK will work for everyone and getting developers to use that and not intels one12:38
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odin_since it is the developers complaining they cant run non-SSSE3 to develop12:38
ali1234there is one thing: they can just say "you can't call it meego" and then nobody will ever hear about it12:38
odin_great, run the media on that one12:39
ali1234i can't see it happening12:39
odin_understood12:39
Stskeepson the other hand, VIA nano benefits a lot from this12:39
Stskeepsthey have ssse312:40
ali1234i want meego to use ssse3 on the actual device12:40
ali1234everybody does12:40
ali1234no point having that silicon doing nothing12:40
odin_agreed, no one is saying don't have SSSE3 optimization capability12:40
Stskeepscan i ask what kind of developer you are?12:40
ali1234i'm the kind of developer who fixes bugs in other people's stuff12:40
Phazorxmorning... can someone help me figure out why certain keystrokes are not seen by X but work fine in console (after being dealt with setkeycodes)?12:41
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sx0n|homemaybe intel just have short them interest and in long run proprietary solutions are not so affordable.12:41
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sx0n|homeafter the market has saturated12:42
odin_anyhows we are getting closer to the answer to the question that is still not proven, "Can you measure SSSE3 optimization speed ups in General Purpose Code?"12:42
Stskeepsali1234: ok, so, you'd actually be happy enough with a platform SDK hack that emulates SSSE3?12:43
ali1234Stskeeps: totally, yeah12:43
ali1234as long as it doesnt make meego slower on my 3.2ghz workstation, than it is on my netbook12:43
Stskeepswhat happens when qemu-kvm encounters ssse3?12:43
ali1234afaik it raises a SIGILL inside the vm?12:44
Stskeepsdoes it technically have to?12:44
ali1234no idea12:44
Stskeepsi mean, virtualization gets SIGILL quite often, from some things12:44
ali1234qemu can hide host extensions... no reason it can't add them too i guess12:44
ali1234i'd rather the "fix" didn't use kvm though. i like to run virtualbox, and kvm is incompatible with it, afaict12:45
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ali1234although virtualbox is probably dead now thanks to oracle...12:47
Stskeepsi wonder if you can do qemu-kvm -cpu host,+ssse312:49
ali1234only if host cpu supports it, currently12:49
odin_SSEplus is Apache v2 license, I wonder if that is compatible with GPL v212:49
Stskeepsali1234: sure?12:50
ali1234http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.qemu/7232412:50
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ali1234seems to imply it will check the host cpu for that feature, and die if it is not found12:50
Stskeepsmm12:50
odin_that would be funny an SSEplus library that AMD optimized (I presume for AMD devices) being used to provide developer happiness with Intel MeeGo12:51
ali1234or in that case, die even if it is found :)12:51
ali1234odin_: surely they made that lib exactly for this purpose?12:51
odin_I have not read all the details its a userspace library to provide proof of concept and assist the development process AFAIKS12:52
ali1234this whole mess makes me want to move away from x86 entirely :(12:54
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odin_good luck with that one, I'm more for the binutils/gcc approach of marking executables/dsos with ISA requirements, this I see is future proof and provides me with the goal (of getting an immediate error back from the dynamic-linker when attempting to run a program that doesn't really work on my host system)12:57
sx0n|homecompared to arm development x86 is a breeze12:57
ali1234sx0n|home: i haven't had that problem, what makes you say it?12:58
sx0n|homei don't like sb1 so much12:58
ali1234well that problem is caused by you using x8612:58
ali1234not by arm12:58
ali1234if you were developing native you wouldn't need sb12:58
sx0n|homeyep, i surfed arm machines but there was not really good ones in the market12:59
sx0n|homefor compilation purposes.12:59
ali1234yeah, this is the problem12:59
pupnik_multiprocessor ARM rack :P13:00
sx0n|homerisc machines cost cows.13:02
odin_I believe some vendor is looking at ARM for the server market now, since they are at the 1.7GHz barrier to entry now, so within 2 years I expect to see rack servers available (reminds me of MIPS based Cobalt Raq2 circa 2001)13:02
sx0n|homethey dont even sell those for green money :)13:02
Stskeepssx0n|home: ARM development is a breeze with OBS.13:02
odin_anyone know how is cross-compile with sysroot looking ?13:03
sx0n|homeStskeeps: so i've been told.13:03
Stskeepsali1234: so, in practice, you'd be happy with a SDK that was built for non-SSSE3?13:03
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Stskeepsbut that targetted ssse313:03
ali1234yes13:04
odin_SDK+core (i.e. what goes into download images) which can target BOTH non-ssse3 and ssse313:04
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Stskeepsali1234: doesn't this pose a problem if you have applications that use SSSE3 and those binaries are used as intermediates?13:04
Stskeepsin build process13:04
ali1234Stskeeps: not my problem13:05
odin_so the next question is i686 ok ?  or does it need to go lower ?13:05
ali1234Stskeeps: it has to work on my development machine, or i won't use it13:05
ali1234Stskeeps: and it doesn't have to target ssse3... it has to target arm13:05
odin_presumably the SDK can uses its own repo, which contains a full set of SDK+core RPMs13:06
Stskeepsali1234: ah, i see the kicker now13:06
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Stskeepsali1234: ok, so, 'arm platform sdk' would be a chroot full of arm binaries..13:08
Stskeepsnot requiring atom13:08
Stskeepsthat's when looking away from what OBS does13:09
ali1234plus an arm cross compiler not requiring atom, plus xephyr not requiring atom, ...13:09
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Stskeepsali1234: i think that's solve-able.13:10
ali1234Stskeeps: all this stuff is "solvable"13:10
Stskeepsas in, organisationally13:10
ali1234it's only solvable if intel actually wants to solve it13:10
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Stskeepsin this particular case, no13:10
ali1234nobody else can solve it and still call the result meego13:10
Stskeepswe have a different set of glibc for cross compiler13:11
Stskeepswhich is maintained by LF guys..13:11
ali1234the question then becomes, if you can supply this stuff for arm, why not for x86 too?13:12
ali1234assuming you can come up with qemu that emulatees ssse313:12
Stskeepsx86 isn't a cross situation13:12
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Stskeepswell, if you have qemu that emulates ssse3, a lot of things is easier13:12
lbtthis is why I asked about labelling at the TSG in the compliance space13:13
lbtMeeGo (arm), MeeGo (x86), MeeGo (Atom)13:13
odin_re what is "meego" and what is "not meego" ?13:13
lbtodin_: see the compliance discussion13:13
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sx0n|homeis meego embedded or generic desktop project?13:18
lbtyes13:18
Ian--can somebody help me to run a .NET application on meego? I'm getting a System.Windows.Forms.dll FileNotFoundException and i can't seem to find how to install it13:18
lbtIan--: check the wiki... it's on there13:19
impjeHow come there is no email address on the MeeGo website? I need to contact them because I was unable to register an account13:20
lbtimpje: that sounds like an oversight - and you probably can't file a bug without registering...13:21
impjelbt: yeah, my email address was added to the database, but I didn't receive a password or anything13:21
lbtspam filtered?13:22
impjeI checked but found nothing13:22
lbton the grounds that most people don't have a problem :)13:22
odin_you can't register again or login at all ?13:22
lbttry again from a gmail-type account?13:22
ali1234i'll file a bug if nobody else is going to :)13:22
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Stskeepsabout?13:22
ali1234there is no contact email on the website13:23
Stskeepsa13:23
Stskeepsh13:23
lbta13:23
impjeI still use Hotmail, maybe that's the problem? Nothing in my spamfolder though13:23
odin_Cry Wolf !13:23
lbtimpje: sorry, I thought you said email account13:23
impjelol13:24
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lbtyeah... IMO no-one's going to (or should) care about that -- sorry13:24
impje:(13:24
impjeI will try with my work email address13:24
lbtyeah... if that doesn't work then I'm sure there will be concern13:25
lbtand once you have an account, do file a bug about a lack of support contacts for this kind of situation13:25
impjelbt: thanks for your help, I will try that and report back if it doesn't work13:26
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lbtnp13:26
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Stskeepsali1234: so, your use case can be covered by having a OBS project containing glibc, gcc, and the -x86 variants for cross compilation13:31
Stskeepsali1234: as well as cross*13:31
Stskeepstargetting non-SSSE313:31
ali1234yeah13:31
ali1234and i'll just have to install a different distro on my netbook :)13:32
Stskeepsmm13:32
Stskeepsali1234: it is a interesting problem13:32
ali1234impje: i reported your bug: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=562813:33
impjeali1234: thanks, that's exactly right13:35
ali1234is there a delay between submitting a bug and the bug showing up on search results?13:35
ali1234the title of the bug is "No point of contact for meego.com account registration problems"13:36
ali1234if i put "meego.com account" into the bugzilla quick search, it does not find the bug13:36
impjelemme check13:36
ali1234if i put in registration it finds it13:37
ali1234ok it's showing up properly now, must be a slight delay :)13:37
PhazorxCan someone please help me figure out why certain keystrokes are not recognized by Xorg while working fine in console (after being dealt with setkeycodes)?13:38
ali1234Phazorx: what scancodes did you assign them to?13:39
ali1234can you pastebin any custom config you used?13:39
ali1234also try running xev and after selecting the window, press the keys13:40
ali1234and then pastebin the log from terminal13:40
impjeali1234, lbt: I can find the bug too :D And I successfully created an account with my work email.13:42
Phazorxali "them" ?13:43
ali1234Phazorx: yes, the keys13:43
Phazorxwell dmesh used to show 0x88 and 0x8913:43
ali1234Phazorx: dmesh?13:43
Phazorxdmesg13:43
ali1234Phazorx: oh. ok. well......13:44
ali1234when you say they work in console after setkeycodes...13:44
Phazorxwhich i assigned to  112 and 113 (unused at time) and tied them to brightness controll with a script that modivies /sys/class/acpi tree values13:44
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ali1234why don't you assign them to the brightness up/down keys?13:45
Phazorxthese are my brightness up/down13:45
lbt:)13:45
Phazorxbut they were not recognized13:45
ali1234112/113 = KEY_MUTE/KEY_MACRO13:45
Phazorxali1234: unforunatelly i dont know how to get the table used by current system13:46
ali1234you probably want 224/225 = KEY_BRIGHTNESSDOWN/KEY_BRIGHTNESSUP13:46
Phazorxso iv followed some guide which said anything passed 112 is fine to be used13:46
ali1234then get rid of your script, and it should "just work"13:46
ali1234http://lxr.linux.no/linux/include/linux/input.h13:46
Phazorxali1234: so if i do setkeycodes 0x88 224 that should make it happy?13:47
Stskeepsi wonder what the typical developer machine looks like inside nokia13:47
Phazorxand X will recognize that too?13:47
lbtStskeeps: not ssse3 ... :)13:47
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ali1234Phazorx: X will, whether the apps running inside it will13:47
ali1234that's another question. but most apps can handle anything < 25613:47
Phazorxali1234: wel li mean to the point that i can bind htem in GCC13:47
Phazorxbelow 256?13:48
ali1234bind them... in GCC?13:48
lbtStskeeps: and I'm slightly concerned that this will hurt us13:48
Phazorxgnome contol center13:48
ali1234oh ok, yeah. should be OK13:48
Stskeepslbt: then again, with OBS plugin in qt sdk..13:48
Phazorxthanks, lemme try that13:48
ali1234but if you map them directly to brightness up/down then gnome should recognise them by defalt13:48
lbtnot seen it yet13:48
Phazorxali1234: i hope it will ... but then many things i hoped for did not happen13:49
lbteven so ... much building should be done locally, images and all13:49
Phazorxali1234: can i bug you with another Q btw?13:49
ali1234sure13:49
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Stskeepslbt: mm13:49
impjeHappy to have an account now. I will write on the forum soon about my experience with MeeGo on my N900 and virtual MeeGo with Qemu. Gotta go know, see you!13:49
lbtit's daft not to use the distributed power of desktops13:49
Phazorxi have another X input issue, where the touchpad is not recognized as multitouch device13:49
Stskeepslbt: mic2 isn't a problem for arm, since everything's qemu13:49
lbto/ impje13:49
lbtnot just arm though13:50
Stskeepswell, mic2 relates to the target13:50
ali1234Phazorx: don't know much about this... i think if it was going to work, it would do...13:50
Phazorxhttp://pastie.org/109032213:51
Phazorxali1234: i see it unloads module after recognizing it - i wonder why13:51
Stskeepslbt: well, backlash will come if there's a real problem13:51
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lbtproblem is, when it arrives it'll take a while to resolve. meanwhile many people not working...13:52
ali1234Phazorx: not sure... but it looks like it sees two different devices, and only one is a touchpad13:52
ali1234Phazorx: can you show what dmesg says about the touchpad, if anything?13:53
ali1234oh nvm, you did13:53
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ali1234Phazorx: perhaps this can help you: http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-969993.html13:54
ali1234someone on that thread has same id for their pad, and they think it can't do multitouch13:56
Phazorxwell it can with sabayon and win713:56
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Phazorxso i doubt it is hw issue13:57
ali1234well thread also has instructions for enabling multitouch features13:57
ali1234it's through hal though, i think hal was killed13:57
Phazorxali1234: i know several approaches to dealing with "fixing" X13:57
Stskeepsali1234: did you find a reliable way to track ssse3 instructions yet13:58
Stskeeps?13:58
Phazorxbut every time i asked about them here i been told what evdev is supposed to take care of everything and it should just work13:58
ali1234Stskeeps: i decided that -d was reliable13:58
Phazorxso i wonder which is the proper way for dealing with it now in meego13:58
Stskeepsali1234: did gcc have any ssse3?13:58
ali1234no13:58
ali1234Stskeeps: this is my "most confident" list: http://pastebin.com/EnX9EnY113:59
Stskeepsdoes glibc guard it's SSSE3 things?13:59
ali1234glibc is hand optimized so you can just look at the code to find out13:59
ali1234the only ssse3 instructions in meego are ones that are done by hand with inline asm14:00
ali1234gcc totally fails to generate any ssse3 instructions, ever14:00
Stskeepsok, so, in theory you don't have problems with arm cross compiler14:00
Stskeepser, in practice14:00
ali1234these results are for 1.0.114:01
Stskeepsas in, it'll run fine on your non-ssse3 machine14:01
Stskeepsah14:01
ali1234um yeah, as long as it doesn't use the normal meego glibc14:01
ali1234but that doesn't mean it will work next week14:01
Stskeepseither way, there's nothing stopping us from providing a non-ssse3 arm cross toolchain14:01
Stskeepsas far as i can tell14:02
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Stskeepslbt: https://build.obs.maemo.org/project/monitor?project=home%3Astskeeps%3Assse3_bootstrap14:08
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lbtlooking rather good :)14:09
Phazorxthere is a newerv xorg-synaptics driver how can i safely use that with meego?14:09
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Stskeepslbt: there's some of them that reports 'cannot build' and a glib2 failure that worries me14:10
Phazorxi mean with having ability to upgrade after that14:10
Stskeeps'gcc cannot build' i mean14:10
lbtStskeeps: when did you start the build?14:10
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lbtyou do know that the maemo OBS is running on AMD hardware...14:10
Stskeepslbt: yesterday14:10
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ali1234Phazorx: right now? get someone with an OBS account to build it for you14:11
ali1234that would result in a RPM you can install at will14:11
lbtStskeeps: not much parallelism in the build ... looking at the number of idle workers...14:12
lbtuntil 9am...14:12
Stskeepsmm14:12
lbthttps://build.obs.maemo.org/monitor14:13
Stskeepswell, 9am was when i woke up and click disable to avoid loop14:13
Stskeeps:P14:13
lbtah14:13
Phazorxali1234: and after that i should be able just to yum it from meego-current repo?14:14
ali1234not exactly no14:14
ali1234basically there is currently no easy way to do it14:14
Phazorxhrm14:14
ali1234if you feel that there is a bug in the synaptics driver you should report it14:15
Phazorxwell in order to confirm that i need to try the driver14:15
Phazorxhttps://launchpad.net/~voria/+archive/ppa/+packages one from here is reported to work with hardware i have14:15
Phazorxso assuming i get that and build it... where do i shove it into X (or make nstall might just work?)?14:16
ali1234no idea14:16
Phazorxheh14:17
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ali1234does brightness work now?14:17
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Stskeepslbt: added you as maintainer - i don't have any personal need for ssse3 on any of my boxes, so feel free to take it from here. patched packages are: gcc, glibc and setup14:20
Stskeepsand prjconf14:20
lbtOK .. we need to find a way to maintain this going forwards too14:21
Stskeepsgcc patch can maybe be altered to a prjconf -mno-ssse3 (such an option exists), not sure about march=core2 eing a problem14:22
ali1234if anyone can show a piece of C code that causes gcc to output an ssse3 instruction... i'd be highly interested :)14:23
ali1234or sse4.1/.2 for that matter14:23
Stskeepsali1234: i'd like you to run a ssse3 check on these binaries when they're done14:24
lbthttp://wiki.meego.com/Devices/nonSSSE3/POC14:25
Stskeepslbt: so, community OBS is amd?14:26
lbtmaemo one14:26
Stskeepsok, then glibc is guarding it's ssse314:27
lbtit's running Xen fwiw14:27
lbtI guess there is a vague chance xen is handling that14:27
* lbt isn't sure14:28
Stskeepsi wonder how far we would get with something simple like assuming for developers that we never saw that -mssse3 was there.14:28
Stskeeps:P14:28
Stskeepsi wonder if ssse3 in qt is guarded14:31
lcukStskeeps, looks like it, the patch lbt pasted here last night at line 18614:31
lcukhttp://pastebin.com/UhVwN0UA14:31
Stskeepsah, clever14:31
lcukerr not the qt one, thats for glibc14:32
Stskeepsyeah14:32
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Stskeepsso, i'm wondering if this is a battle we want to take14:34
Stskeepsby the time gcc has ssse3 specific code optimization, the machines being non-ssse3 is obsolete14:35
Stskeeps:P14:35
lbtI am wondering what the problem is14:35
lbtand if it is still a problem14:35
lbtI've been told, many times14:36
lbtthat I *neeeed* sssse314:36
lbtand since my boring old laptops are pre-core-duo I haven't even tried meego on them14:36
lbtI saw problems in the early days when building mic2 images... those problems were real and, I was told, due to the ssse3 issue14:37
lbtthe fire on the mailing list didn't say "in practice, all ssse3 is guarded"14:38
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lcukperhaps the devs were following form and heard that gcc optimizations were using ssse3 and just jumped the fence following from the previous person14:40
lcuksince actually checking and validating it requires specific knowledge of reading asm and patches etc14:40
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ali1234Stskeeps: my scripts: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/cpucheck-0.2.tar.gz14:40
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ali1234according to my tests there is no ssse3 in qt14:42
lbtmmm there is in the trunk/testing14:43
lbtqt4.714:43
Stskeepssec14:43
ali1234i will rsync the daily then, and test that14:43
w00t_depends how new the Qt is too, I think a bunch of patches have been landing adding ssse3 code14:43
ali1234as in, hand coded ones?14:43
ali1234inline asm14:44
ali1234these are easy enough to back out :)14:44
lbtQt is either guarded or compile flagged in a nice way14:44
lbtie "done properly" :)14:44
Stskeepshttp://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/ia32/packages/i586/ - check those qt packages for ssse314:44
ali1234on it14:45
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Stskeepslbt, did you look at the ways people program for sse in general? i have doubts any gcc optimizations exist that lend itself to easy ssse3'izing14:46
Stskeepsali1234, lbt: consider a SSSE3 talk on confernece? P14:48
lbt"Handling multiple architures and architecture variations in MeeGo, MeeGo app stores and MeeGo Extras/Garage"14:51
Stskeepsah14:51
lbtno, that was just an idea for a title14:52
ali1234i think i'm going to bring a placard with "what do we want? not ssse3. when do we want it? never" on it14:52
* Stskeeps ponders when atom came on market first time14:52
lbtStskeeps, fancy collaborating on that talk?14:53
Stskeepslbt: i should stay in meego arm14:53
lbt2006 I think someone said14:53
lbtwuss14:53
Stskeepswe're a little more in control of our arch ;)14:53
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ali1234why does meego have i586 and i686 sections?14:56
Stskeepsanother good question14:56
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lbtrpm ?14:56
lbtno consistent naming policy?14:56
Stskeepsno matter what calculation i make regarding money and ssse3 support, the time spent to maintain the non-ssse3 vs people buying equipment with ssse3 doesn't add up to the time spent making the non-ssse314:58
Stskeeps:P14:58
Stskeepsi mean14:58
Stskeepsa D945GCLF2 is 73 usd.14:58
Stskeepsmajority of people will be using qt and MADDE, ie, never actually try to run the binaries14:59
lcukthere is also the subset of people with ssse3 supporting atom chips but then the brainfuck of gma50014:59
Stskeepsthere might be some merit to SSSE3 emulation in qemu-kvm, but beyond that..14:59
lcukbut realistically there are 10000% more capable machines than atom machines at this time15:00
lbtphenom x6 !!!15:00
lbtyay15:00
ali1234but, capable machines with ssse3 is basically just AMD stuff15:00
ali1234*without15:00
TermanaStskeeps, retail price?15:01
Stskeepsdid anyone look into if qemu-i386 can do passthrough15:01
StskeepsTermana: amazon15:01
lcukis linaro targetting arm only at this point?15:01
TermanaStskeeps, right, somehow I doubt Intel is paying retail price for their equipment15:01
lcukcos on their faq they mention putting meego ontop15:01
StskeepsTermana: not speaking of intel15:01
StskeepsTermana: my point is any given developer15:01
TermanaStskeeps, oh, well carry on - don't mind me :P15:02
timeless_mbplinaro's web site is much shinier than meego's15:02
lcukali1234, i have 2 intel chipset lenovo laptops, one 20" multitouch allinone machine15:02
lcukand a load of other boards15:02
lcukspecifically intel15:02
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: but very confusing15:02
lcukthe allinone was purchased this year15:02
timeless_mbpand search takes too long15:02
ali1234the thing about developing is you can't build/debug efficiently on a netbook15:02
Termanalcuk, Linaro is basically made of ARM companies (?) I doubt they are doing anything else15:02
ali1234if i had to replace by workstation with an intel based one, i am looking at £800+15:03
lcukok, so is there a followup from ubuntu to put meego on top15:03
lcuklike they did with moblin remix15:03
Stskeepsali1234: there's no reason why you can't build locally, deploy and debug remotely15:03
Stskeepsi mean15:03
Stskeepsit is a device target.15:03
lcukbecause if so, that would work on all those machines I just mentioned15:03
lcukcos they all run ubuntu atm15:03
Robot101lcuk: no; it wouldn't be meego compliant - because compliance now requires the distro to be the meego distro15:03
Termanalcuk, you mean put the UI/UX on top of Ubuntu?15:03
Robot101lcuk: ubuntu are making their own eg netbook UX15:03
Robot101lcuk: and tbh, probably a tablet - they just released some multitouch stuff too15:04
ali1234Stskeeps: this is true if i can build rpms and put them in my local repo... of course if building rpms needs a chroot, and then i need an intel chip for the chroot, and i'm back to square 115:04
Termanalcuk, someone could independently compile the MeeGo UI/UX onto Ubuntu and send it up into the repos (or even, not do that)15:04
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Robot101fedora has a project to build a meego respin I think15:05
TermanaSuSE are trying to do it as well (AFAIK)15:05
ali1234i bet a tonne of people are trying to port meego15:05
ali1234rather, port meego UX15:05
smokumeego core is enough for me :>15:07
lcukStskeeps, there is your motivation for proper meego to be more supportive of x86 in general15:07
Stskeepsno, not really15:07
Stskeeps:P15:07
lcukwell to the end user, they wont care which meego is which15:07
lcukwhether its official compliance or not15:08
lcukif it looks like meego and runs like meego15:08
lcukand happens to run on the hardware they have15:08
ali1234it won't though15:08
ali1234(look like meego, run like meego)15:08
Termanalcuk, Are general consumers really going to go and download MeeGo though15:08
ali1234even meego won;t "look like meego" once the vendors are through with it15:08
TermanaI'm not sure they will. They'll buy devices preloaded with MeeGo15:09
timeless_mbpooh, i know someone at linaro!15:09
lbtI think the app-store/garage is the place where this could hurt15:09
lbtmaking an img that works is easy15:09
lbtmaking it work with a variety of 3rd party apps... some closed ... harder15:10
lbtunless there is a clear way to trivially build for architecture targets15:10
sivangtimeless_mbp: pong15:11
ali1234i see a lot more ssse3 in the daily builds... report coming soon15:12
ali1234chromium has some, firefox has some15:13
timeless_mbpfirefox's should do runtime detection15:13
ali1234nothing critical yet except glibc15:13
timeless_mbpwe sometimes get it wrong, but we should be15:13
ali1234seems to be in the javascript engine15:14
timeless_mbpsure15:17
timeless_mbpbut as i said, it's supposed to be cpu aware15:17
timeless_mbp(runtmie)15:18
ali1234yeah, i believe it... my scripts don't really check for that15:18
timeless_mbps/mie/ime/15:18
infobottimeless_mbp meant: (runtime)15:18
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ali1234Stskeeps,lbt: daily -d: http://pastebin.com/y24n9wVy15:27
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lcuklbt, from the meego community obs, did i hear that you had already run it over the current maemo community apps?  do you happen to know how many currently there will run directly on meego?15:34
lcuki am guessing that the subset is only the qt apps, but I might be wrong15:35
lbtno... that's your (the maemo community's) job...15:35
lbtbut they are bone-idle scumbags...15:35
Khertanpyqt isn't available yet from what i see15:36
lcukand since most of hte apps are hildon it doesn't make sense15:36
lcukso not a case of boneidleness :P15:36
lcuki was wondering about the specific qt apps15:36
Khertanbut the obs can build debian package :)15:37
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lcuklbt, in the past you have run obs over everything in extras though, I am sure I remember you doing it15:40
lcukor am I going back far enough to be mer15:40
lbtthat's correct15:40
lbtwe can build against fremantle15:41
lbtthey are debs15:41
lcukthat will be it then15:41
lbtthey won't build against meego as-is15:41
lbtharmattan...15:41
lbtno but easier15:41
lcuknot even pure qt?15:41
lbtno15:41
lbtbuild tool syntax15:41
lbtdeb!=rpm15:41
lbtyou need to convert your debian/ dir to a spec file15:42
lbtbut I'd love to see that15:42
lbtKhertan mentioned pyqt... someone asked on the ml about doing just this15:42
lcukhmm if only qt had a central set of app packaging interfaces15:43
lcukthen could spout out rpm or deb or installshield as required15:43
lcukor even pacman15:43
lcukor any other extensible normal build system15:44
ali1234that makes no sense :/15:44
Khertanlbt, yes i know15:44
Khertan:)15:44
lcukali1234, why does it make no sense?15:44
lcukqt is meant to be cross platform15:44
ali1234because it would have to generate spec/control, not binary packages15:44
lcukthe biggest headache of crossplatformness is installing15:44
lbtlcuk: it's not windows15:45
ali1234and it would have to generate them for every distro evar15:45
Stskeepsi vote having qt sdk generate yaml files15:45
Stskeeps:P15:45
lcukali1234, well then how does a qt developer today manage to use qt on all platforms?15:45
lbteek15:45
Stskeepsand yaml -> spec, debian/15:45
ali1234lcuk: they release the source, and let someone else worry about packaging15:45
lcukqt code once, deploy anywhere was/is the motto15:45
lcukali1234, ahhhhh15:45
lcukbut lbt just said devs are boneidle15:46
lcukand have to diy15:46
ali1234approximately 0% of OSS developers target a specific distro with their code15:46
lcukagreed15:46
Khertani vote for adding bdist_deb to setup tool on obs15:46
lcukthen having a nice central easy deployable qt mechanism would be a good thing?15:46
Khertanso python apps can be build with the same setup.py15:46
ali1234which is why trying to attract app developers to "code for meego" is a flawed idea from the start15:46
Khertanali1234, and this is why qt is here15:47
Khertan:)15:47
lcukbut Khertan all the points about packaging those said apps15:47
lcukloses that15:47
Khertan)15:47
Khertan:)15:47
* lcuk will modify his template to generate rpms once I know enough of the spec15:48
ali1234lcuk if they are using qtcreator then sure, have it generate a generic control/spec/yaml whatever15:48
lcukand once I get machines with meego on of course15:48
lcukali1234, thats what I mean15:48
* lcuk started adding ubuntu menu thingies to template recently15:49
ali1234ideally qtcreator for platform X would be customized with a plugin to make the right kind of packages for that platform, and of course you could install all the other plugins too15:49
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ali1234i have no problem with this :)15:49
ali1234but it should not be built in to the core of Qt15:49
lcukali1234, yes, that was my initial line: use a qt api to generate a qt package, then have it output in whatever format was necessary15:49
ali1234qt api?15:50
lcuka set of classes written in qt to handle the different packaging requirements15:50
KhertanQPackage ... :)15:50
ali1234there is basically no need for that15:50
lcukfiles icons .desktops shortcuts libraries dependencies conffiles etc15:50
Khertanali1234, there is15:50
lcukyes Khertan15:50
ali1234if your project has a makefile that can do make install, packaging it is trivial anyway15:51
Khertanmakefile ... HAHA15:51
lcukali1234, then why isnt that the default15:51
lcukand why cant normal qt maemo apps run in meego today?15:51
ali1234lcuk i dunno, you'd have to ask the people who make sucky projects i guess15:51
ali1234lcuk they can run15:51
Khertanmakefile isn't for everythings15:52
ali1234the problem is that the packages are described in control files but meego needs spec files15:52
lcukmakefile is a good place to do the majority of deployment for a specific platform15:52
ali1234these files are equivalent in usage but totally different in systax15:52
lcukali1234, you are missing what I am trying to do15:52
lcukQPackage (nice name Khertan) would hold all this info15:52
lcukand different output generators could be created15:52
lcukwhich take the info in QPackage and give .debs or rpms or installshields in the OS specific locations15:53
ali1234you can't do that15:53
lcukC:/program files/ali1234/ali1234.exe15:53
ali1234debs are made from control files15:53
lcuk/usr/bin/ali123415:53
ali1234no control, no deb15:53
* lcuk bangs head15:53
ali1234no spec, no rpm15:53
lcukthen have QPackage give out control files15:53
ali1234ok. what does it do on windows?15:54
lcukand have another plugin to make spec files15:54
lcukit has an installshield one15:54
lcukor wise installer15:54
lcukor even package and deployment wizard files15:54
ali1234so QPackage has to know how to build the whole project15:54
lcukyes15:54
ali1234which is different on every platform anyway15:54
lcukyou have to tell something that info anyway15:54
lcuknot really15:54
lcukin installshield15:54
ali1234yes really15:54
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lcukyou specify things like data path15:54
lcukdatabase files15:55
ali1234all you have done is moved the problem15:55
lcukmenu files15:55
lcuketc15:55
lcukit chooses the location15:55
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lcukno15:55
ali1234instead of having to rewrite all the controls into spec files, now we have to go in and modify some code, and change all the values inside this QPackage thing15:55
lcukinstallshield handles happily nstalling in win98 and winnt and win2k+15:55
Khertanlook at python setup.py ... you specify what is datafile ... what is script file ... what is module ... and everything go to the right place "magically"15:55
lcukthey thenselves have different standards for locations15:55
ali1234Khertan: and it stomps all over your distro packaged files15:55
sydsbHi All15:56
Khertanali1234, nope ... from setup.py you can generate rpm or deb15:56
sydsbcould you help me for a sec15:56
sydsbI can't get the meego install past the formating of my harddisk...15:56
sydsband the none google version doens't even boot15:56
ali1234Khertan: because setup.py encapsulates all the needed data same as a makefile does15:57
ali1234moving it into some other file serves no purpose15:58
lcukali1234, moving it into another file format allows it to be abstracted "in a qt cross platform manner"15:58
lcukso that the plugin can choose where to store data files and binaries and menu files and confi info15:58
Khertanwhy having QString ? it s just a string ...15:59
Khertansame things15:59
ali1234at the end of the day you still need to make a spec or a control, or OBS won't build your project16:00
ali1234the spec/control has to exist before anything else16:00
lcukno16:00
lcukthe QPackage should exist16:00
lcukthen IT can make BOTH spec AND RPM16:00
ali1234how can a QPackage "exist"?16:00
ali1234it's code16:00
lcukerrr both spec and deb16:01
ali1234it won;t exist until you compile and run it16:01
lcukyes its configuration data stored inside the qt project16:01
ali1234to compile it you need a spec and a makefile16:01
Khertanali1234, not necessary ... you could use python biding16:01
Khertanand so no makefile :)16:01
ali1234we are not talking about python16:02
ali1234we're talking generic Qt apps16:02
lcukok ali123416:02
lcukhow does spec/control put a qt app on windows?16:02
ali1234it doesn't16:02
lcukhow does a spec/control put it onto ubuntu?16:02
lcukhow does a spec/control put it onto arch?16:03
ali1234you take the source rpm, which contains the project source, and the control, and use run dpkg-buildpackage on it, and it generates a deb16:03
lcukhow does a spec/control put it onto X distro?16:03
ali1234arch uses that pacman stuff16:03
lcukhow does a spec/control put it onto mac?16:03
ali1234gentoo uses ebuilds16:03
Khertanali1234, we are not talking about generic qt apps ... we are talking about packaging !16:03
lcukthe suggestion I am making is to allow a qt project to just tell its high level "i have some icons and binaries and data, put it where necessary for the OS in question"16:04
lcukand that qt-creator plugins will use that information and produce a package in the required format16:04
ali1234there is simply no reason to put any of that inside Qt16:05
lcukwhether it be spec/deb/pac/installshield/mac/or whatever16:05
thiago_homenot inside Qt16:05
thiago_homebut inside the .pro file, or some other file, yes16:05
lcuk++ yes16:05
thiago_homefor simple apps, it's useful16:05
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thiago_homefor anything more complex, you'll probably have to maintain the package rules yourself16:05
ali1234sure, fine, i got no problem with that16:05
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ali1234but if you do that properly there's no reason why it even has to be limited to Qt16:06
thiago_homeindeed16:06
ali1234i bet eclipse can already do stuff like this16:06
* lcuk turns 360 degrees and goes doing some useful work16:06
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* timeless_mbp kicks lcuk16:11
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timeless_mbplcuk:  did you hear the one about the guy whose velocity was 0 but had a speed of 20mph?16:12
timeless_mbpin case people are wondering, turning 360 degrees gets you pretty much *nowhere* new. just precisely where you started before you spent time turning around in a *complete* circle16:13
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lcuktimeless_mbp, ;)16:14
Khertanyeah ... but it's a bit like goldorak ... why making two turns before attacking ... it s just a loose of time ...16:14
ali1234i think that was the point16:15
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vljI meet a strange error with mic http://paste.opensuse.org/2043124916:17
timeless_mbpvlj:  can you ask mic to run in LC_ALL="C"?16:18
timeless_mbp> device-mapper: reload ioctl failed: Erreur d'entrée/sortie16:19
vljinput/output error16:19
vljbut I think it may be better in english yup ;)16:19
timeless_mbp> Error: failed to create image : Could not create snapshot device using: /sbin/dmsetup create imgcreate-5210-37918 --table 0 6144000 snapshot /dev/loop0 /dev/loop1 p 816:19
timeless_mbpthat second line is more or less likely to be fatal16:19
vljyes16:20
ali1234modprobe loop?16:20
timeless_mbpare you in a vm?16:20
vljbut I don't understand why mic try to seek a file in tmp ?16:20
timeless_mbpor are you sharing?16:20
vljno16:20
vljno16:20
timeless_mbpso this is your own machine?16:20
vljyup16:20
timeless_mbpwhat are the permissions for /dev/loop*16:21
vlj(I modprobed loop)16:21
ali1234already got something mounted on loop0/loop1?16:21
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vljbrw-rw------16:21
timeless_mbpali1234:  that'd be my bet16:21
timeless_mbpbut i was guessing it was another user16:21
ali1234like a CD image for example?16:21
timeless_mbpali1234:  mount|grep loop ?16:22
vljim building in livecd format16:22
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vlj(what is the loop device ?)16:22
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timeless_mbpa loop is like a circle or a ring16:22
ali1234if you mount an image file like an .iso or a filesystem image, it goes to /dev/loopN16:22
timeless_mbphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loopback16:22
ScottishDuckSo is there any indication of how long beta is delayed for16:23
vljbut why can it breaks mic process ?16:23
timeless_mbpoddly that doesn't list file system16:23
timeless_mbpvlj: basically the file system doesn't allow mounting files16:23
timeless_mbpit mounts devices16:23
vljok16:23
timeless_mbploopback is a way of presenting a file as a device16:23
ali1234vlj: if mic is hardcoded to use loop0 and loop1 they might be already in use...16:23
timeless_mbpbut if you've already presented a file as device <loop0>16:24
vljI just ran a single instance of mic at a time16:24
vljwell how can I see that ?16:24
timeless_mbpand someone else tries to present another file as device <loop0>16:24
timeless_mbpthat's not going to work....16:24
timeless_mbpvlj:  try "mount|grep loop"16:24
vljno output16:24
ali1234thats not it then16:25
timeless_mbpwhat's the group for loop0?16:26
timeless_mbp(and are you in it)16:26
ali1234anything interesting on dmesg?16:26
vljerr16:27
vljin /etc/passwd ?16:27
ali1234vlj: ls -l /dev/loop016:27
ali1234and 'groups' to list your current groups16:28
vljroot disk16:28
vljim in user and video16:28
ali1234you need to be in disk then i would guess16:28
ali1234gpasswd -a vlj disk16:29
ali1234(as root)16:29
ali1234then log out and log in again16:29
ali1234but be warned that this gives your user the ability to trash all your disks :)16:30
vljwell I'm the only user :p16:30
TermanaOr you know, you could just use your root access to mount the loop16:31
* Termana rolls eyes at ali123416:31
Termana:P16:31
vljmic does ask me my root password16:31
vljerr16:31
vljin fact I run mic-image-creator as root16:31
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ali1234oooook it's not permissions either then16:32
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ali1234hmm16:33
ali1234device-mapper is what looks on eg /dev/hda to find the partitions /dev/hda1 ... etc16:34
ali1234vlj: are you actually trying to make the ks file yourself?16:35
vljyes16:35
vljI may have broken something in my ks file ?16:37
ali1234i think so16:37
ali1234it's not permission or device busy error but i/o error from device-mapper16:37
ali1234to me that indicates the loop wasn't set up correctly, or the image you gave it was supposed to have partition table but didn't16:38
ali1234can you successfully build a vanilla livecd with the standard .ks?16:40
ali1234if so problem must be your .ks file16:40
vlj2sec16:40
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vljhttp://wiki.meego.com/images/Nvidia-meego.ks here is my ks file16:42
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ali1234heh, that looks suspiciously like a spec file :)16:43
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vljwell the %post section is moreless a spec file16:44
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ali1234i don't get it16:45
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ali1234you copy nvidia...run into the image along with gcc... but how does it get built?16:46
vljwell it does not build it during image creation16:46
vljit just copy everything so that the user can build it after installing meego16:46
ali1234yet you start x on boot? how is that going to work?16:47
vljnvidia drivers does not like to be installed in an automated fashion16:47
vljx will probably crash on boot ;)16:47
ali1234why not just use a vanilla livecd and install it all by hand?16:47
vljbecause no internet connection16:48
vljerr I have an issue16:48
vljwhen I do ps aux16:48
ali1234ah, ok16:48
vljI have [loop0] and [loop1] process16:48
vljand I cannot kill them16:48
ali1234hmm, that's odd16:48
ali1234ah, yeah, cos they are set up but not mounted16:49
vljhow can I "remove" them ?16:49
ali1234sudo losetup -a16:50
ali1234to list them16:50
ali1234sudo losetup -d /dev/loop016:51
ali1234to detach it16:51
ali1234but they are probably only like that cos the script bombed out half way16:51
ali1234out of interest what does losetup -a say?16:51
vlj/dev/loop0: [0807]:40118 (/var/tmp/imgcreate-TpeSZm/tmp-NLk7jF/meego.img)16:52
vlj/dev/loop1: [0807]:40237 (/var/tmp/imgcreate-PZkgcp/tmp-PjAn79/meego.img)16:52
vlji will detach them I think16:52
ali1234output implies it's from two different runs i think16:52
vljmaybe16:52
ali1234so that might be the cause16:52
ali1234did you have problems at an earlier stage in the script?16:53
vljwell yes16:53
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vljerr16:53
vljI have this error msg now :16:53
vljError: failed to create image : [Errno 28] No space left on device: '/var/tmp/mic-tmp-cZObMp'16:53
Stskeepsout of space?16:54
Stskeeps:P16:54
ali1234lol, it could have been disk full all along :)16:54
timeless_mbpanyone rm -rf /var/tmp :)16:54
timeless_mbp(not as root)16:54
vljwhy not as root ?16:54
timeless_mbpwell, hrm, maybe sudo rm -rf /var/tmp/*16:54
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timeless_mbpwell, you don't really want to delete /var/tmp itself16:55
timeless_mbpand there might be some other processes using /var/tmp16:55
vljindeed16:55
timeless_mbpkilling their bits would mostly suck16:55
* Stskeeps gets back to his kitchen ux project..16:55
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: irl?16:55
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timeless_mbpbut if mic is running as root, that probably won't work16:55
vlj /var/tmp is not cleaned when rebooting computer ?16:55
timeless_mbpit might be16:55
* timeless_mbp shrugs16:55
timeless_mbpdepends on your computer16:55
vljnow I have "Error: failed to create image : Failed to find group 'Base' : No Group named Base exists"16:56
timeless_mbp¿Hay alguien aquí que hable español?16:57
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ali1234vlj: i notice you've got like 10 copies of nvidia drivers downloaded, if you use wget -c it won't reget it every time (and will automatically retry on errors)17:00
timeless_mbp¡Ayúdenme! :)17:00
vljok17:00
vlj(i'm not a script expert ;)  )17:01
ali1234can't help with your new error though, it sounds weird17:01
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vljwell I think this is because @Base does not exist anymore17:01
vljI don't have this error with my nvidia-netbook.ks17:01
vljjust with the plain meego-preview-core.ks17:01
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vljis there any Meego-netbook for arm image yet ?17:07
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Stskeepsvlj: no, a lot doesn't compile17:08
vljok17:08
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lbtwoo - debate fodder on the community ml ... again... not that anyone cares ;)   "Building apps which require proprietary code on the MeeGo OBS"17:55
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lbtjust find a way to get it ratified (how *does* anything get ratified given the lack of a council? Jaffa?)17:56
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Stskeepsis there a executive summary of the problem yet?17:58
Stskeepslike, grabbing the closed blobs from another obs through a obs link18:02
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lcuklbt, is the problem constrained to closed source blobs18:03
lcukI tohught also, obs has limitations on its open source stuff for certain projects18:04
lcukwasn't it a restriction that prevents mplayer from being there18:04
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timeless_mbplbt_away: isn't everything approved by the Governing board?18:14
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Jaffalbt: saw mention, will check scrollback later20:27
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Jaffalbt: without a council you a) worry about people with veto then b) Just Do It. If you require external resources, you have to convince each person (or their taskmaster) individually.20:39
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JaffaFun times.20:39
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pavlixare there any plans to support python3 in meego in the near future?20:52
timeless_mbpJaffa: hey, i got mxr.meego.com :)20:52
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slonopotamuspavlix: it's safe to think you were told "no"20:57
CosmoHillwhat's the current version of python?20:57
pavlixslonopotamus: and the long answer? :)20:57
timeless_mbp"no. no. no" ? :)20:58
CosmoHill"GTFO"?20:58
timeless_mbp+2?20:58
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pavlixtimeless_mbp: how funny :)20:59
timeless_mbpi try :)20:59
Stskeepspavlix: i think p2.6 or something is there but not p3 yet20:59
pavlixCosmoHill: I hope this was not for me20:59
CosmoHillno21:00
CosmoHill>.>21:00
pavlix:)21:00
CosmoHillI was taking a guess at the long answer21:00
Stskeepspavlix: i think it would appear in community repos first21:00
pavlixStskeeps: nobody told me about these yet :) any links to information?21:01
pavlix(yes, I'll try google first)21:01
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timeless_mbpyou didn't search before asking here? tsk21:01
Stskeepspavlix: still under construction21:02
Stskeeps:P21:02
pavlixah :)21:02
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pavlixfunny21:02
timeless_mbppavlix:  why should someone add another runtime to a mobile platform?21:02
timeless_mbpare there critical mobile apps which require python3?21:03
pavlixtimeless_mbp: for the same reason someone added the previous one21:03
timeless_mbppavlix:  err21:03
pavlixtimeless_mbp: does it matter?21:03
timeless_mbpyes21:04
timeless_mbpeach runtime costs space21:04
Stskeepspavlix: think its too late for 1.1 in official meego21:04
timeless_mbpspace on mobile platforms is at a premium21:04
timeless_mbpadding an unnecessary runtime is stupid21:04
timeless_mbpmost python apps support 2.x21:04
timeless_mbpthey might or might not support 3.x21:04
timeless_mbpbut they do generally support 2.x21:04
timeless_mbpwhich means there's very little reason to take in a 3.x runtime21:05
pavlixtimeless_mbp: are you sure that the repository servers are going to run out of space any soon?21:05
timeless_mbpum21:05
timeless_mbpdid i say anything about repositories?21:05
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timeless_mbpa mobile platform is a thing that comes as part of the base hardware for a mobile device21:05
timeless_mbpit isn't an "add on"21:05
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timeless_mbpit's the *base*21:05
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timeless_mbpthat's part of the definition of a _platform_21:06
timeless_mbpyou stand on it21:06
pavlixtimeless_mbp: are you a maintainer or something?21:06
timeless_mbpand as Stskeeps has noted, it's too late for 1.121:06
timeless_mbpand the reality is that 1.1 is the "near future"21:06
timeless_mbpwhich means your question has been answered21:06
pavlixtimeless_mbp: are you in a position to say new versions of python are not suitable for meego?21:06
timeless_mbpin the generic sense? no21:07
pavlixtimeless_mbp: if not, please stop this rant21:07
timeless_mbpbut you didn't ask that question21:07
timeless_mbpyou asked a much narrower question21:07
timeless_mbpand i gave you a fairly reasonable and reasoned answer21:07
timeless_mbphttp://meego.com/users/pavlix 404 (Page Not Found)21:07
lcukand I think you have quite a good understanding of the issues21:08
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pavlixtimeless_mbp: I don't see your answer at all, just plain rant. I kindly ask you to stop it.21:08
pavlixtimeless_mbp: I already got my answer from the others.21:09
timeless_mbppavlix‣slonopotamus: and the long answer? :)21:09
timeless_mbptimeless_mbp‣"no. no. no" ? :)21:09
pavlixtimeless_mbp: ok, there it is... but it became hidden in this sort of useless debate you started21:09
pavlixtimeless_mbp: I would be really happy to stop it21:10
* timeless_mbp sighs21:11
timeless_mbpsilly guests21:11
lcukpavlix, since you have an answer now, let me ask - what do you specifically need for python 3?21:11
lcukwhat is the benfit of using it instead of hte included version21:11
slonopotamuspavlix: much software doesn't work with python 3. and having two pythons on embedded devices is a strange thing21:11
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timeless_mbpslonopotamus: we could ship 4 instead :)21:12
slonopotamusactually having python at all is suspicious already :)21:12
timeless_mbpthere were plans to ship 4 webkits :)21:12
pavlixlcuk: nothing special, I was just asking because I got an advice to use python 3 instead of python 2 for its better memory management (the field was gobject/clutter)21:13
timeless_mbpyou got relatively bad advice21:13
pavlixlcuk: may i have a non-technical question? Is this room members-only? Did I deserve being called silly?21:13
lcukpavlix, on which platform was that advice given?21:13
pavlixlcuk: I asked about known problems with pygtk applications21:14
lcukpavlix, well, you took the answers that a long time member with good reputation and knowledge and threw it in his face21:14
lcukso I can understand the tension honestly21:14
timeless_mbppavlix:  you do realize that gtk isn't really supported on meego, right?21:14
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timeless_mbpthe official future for meego is Qt21:15
thiago_hometimeless_mbp: 4? I can only think of three: QtWebKit, webkit-gtk and one for Chrome/Chromium21:15
thiago_hometimeless_mbp: where did you see a fourth?21:15
timeless_mbpthiago: nokia makes things much more exciting21:15
Khertantimeless_mbp, and pyside :)21:15
pavlixlcuk: I didn't react on the answer, though, I only reacted to something that I felt was offending to me21:15
lcukthiago_home, do chrome and chromium destructively install over each other?21:15
timeless_mbpthankfully we decided not to ship 4 :)21:15
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pavlixlcuk: intentionally offending in my opinion21:16
thiago_homelcuk: I don't know. MeeGo's image is my first contact with either of them.21:16
lcukreasonable enough21:16
pavlixbut let it be... I hope I can have easy time here in the future21:16
pavlixtimeless_mbp: not really... that's a news to me21:17
timeless_mbpthiago:  is there a useful link indicating that Qt is the official future for MeeGo?21:17
timeless_mbphttp://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Intel-and-Nokia-MeeGo/ is the first link i can find21:17
timeless_mbpand that's hardly useful canon21:17
thiago_hometimeless_mbp: the original announcement and everything else, I guess21:17
Khertanpavlix, the problem of python is mainly that a great number of python third party module aren't ready yet for py3.121:17
timeless_mbphttp://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one21:18
thiago_homethe architecture diagrams too21:18
pavlixKhertan: I'm actually still deciding about the frontend's programming launguage, it can just as well be C21:18
timeless_mbpthiago:  the architecture diagram is actually misleading21:18
timeless_mbpat least the first one i can find21:19
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lcukpavlix, depending on your target (and since you are in #meego) you should be looking towards qt as a frontend dev toolkit21:19
Khertanpavlix, python pyside/qt could be an option, depending what you are trying to do21:19
pavlixis it correct, that meego netbook is built on top of clutter and mx?21:19
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Khertanpavlix, for the moment21:20
lcukpavlix, thats as maybe, but the recommendations from everywhere is to develop and code apps in qt itself21:20
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lcukthen you will gain ability to span meego as it expands21:20
slonopotamustimeless_mbp: what puzzles me in webkit is why it isn't a separate shared object but instead bundled in all stuff21:20
lcuki suggest you have a good read through the meego.com site and about development best practices21:21
* RST38h cackles at gtk+ and clutter not going anywhere from Meego21:21
timeless_mbpRST38h:  shh21:21
lcukyes, shhh21:21
pavlix:)21:21
timeless_mbphttp://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture21:21
RST38hIt is true that Nokia may not "support" them, but there are other parties in the equations...21:21
timeless_mbpis worth a read, pay more attn to the text21:21
timeless_mbpand note that MeeGo API = Qt21:22
pavlixactually, I don't care much about gtk/clutter/qt flamewars21:22
timeless_mbppavlix:  you prefer python wars?21:22
timeless_mbpi'm giving you friendly advice21:22
* lcuk giggles21:22
timeless_mbpbuilding on pygtk is not a good idea for meego21:22
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timeless_mbpbecause the gtk side of things is not on the "very supported" or "recommended" side of things21:23
lcukpavlix, sure, then read up and have a proper look at whether qt will fit your app21:23
pavlixtimeless_mbp: I value that... and I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious21:23
timeless_mbpit wasn't21:23
lcuksince you dont care for the language and havent written it, yet21:23
timeless_mbpat all21:23
lcukits a good chance21:23
RST38hpavlix: Actually, if you want something implemented in Meego, the best way is to do it by yourself and then present it to the public21:23
timeless_mbpbut keep in mind that certain boats have saled21:23
timeless_mbperr sailed21:23
timeless_mbpyou should definitely read to discover which those are21:24
pavlixRST38h: if I wanted something implemented in Meego, I would be very happy to do it the way you suggest21:24
Khertangit clone http://github.com/astraw/stdeb.git21:24
RST38hpavlix: There is no way you are going to influence any of Intel or Nokia developers working on Meego21:24
Khertanoups wrong windows21:24
timeless_mbppeople who e.g. ask for .deb do not get a good welcome :)21:24
RST38hpavlix: You will just get sneered at, or explained why things will not happen21:24
timeless_mbppavlix:  note that in general, you're better served by making _small_ notable contributions before you try to make a big change21:25
pavlixRST38h: stop this, please, I never suggested I would ever want to influence them21:25
RST38hpavlix: So, if you want a particular version of Python or Py-extensions, package them for Meego and make them available21:25
RST38hStop what?21:25
pavlixRST38h: answering to things I haven't ever said21:25
RST38hWell, as you wish21:26
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pavlixRST38h: I believe it was out of a misunderstanding21:26
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pavlixon both sides, as I probably misunderstood the purpose of MeeGo Core21:27
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timeless_mbppavlix:  a very valuable lesson: if you find multiple people reaching nearly the same conclusion. it's probably your fault21:27
lcukthp, you can never leave facebook21:27
timeless_mbpe.g. there was a case @nokia where 3 localizers screwed up a translation of a string21:27
timeless_mbpthe fault didn't lie w/ the localizers, it lied w/ the original string21:27
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timeless_mbps/lied/lay/21:28
infobottimeless_mbp meant: the fault didn't lie w/ the localizers, it lay w/ the original string21:28
lcuktimeless_mbp, to be fair, using the word penis in that error message WAS necessary :P21:28
slonopotamus:D21:28
timeless_mbplcuk: not that one! =b21:28
RST38hNow we know who came up with the original message21:28
* timeless_mbp thinks it was in the Image Viewer21:28
pavlixtimeless_mbp: I couldn't imagine how multiple people could reach the conclusion that I asked someone to include python3 in meego core, when I did not21:28
timeless_mbpsomething like "turn to horizontal"21:28
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RST38hlcuk: So, is N9 going to have an orifice of sorts? Is there a Qt API for that?21:29
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thiago_homethere's no N921:29
lcukwhats the N9?21:29
CosmoHilllcuk: imaginary21:29
RST38hThat aluminium gadget which leaked a few days ago21:29
lcuka leaking orifice?21:29
CosmoHilli saw a video of it last week21:29
Khertanah the proto ?21:29
thiago_homeit doesn't exist until it's officially announced21:29
thiago_homeif it's officially announced21:30
slonopotamusleaky aluminuim gadget :/ oh my21:30
timeless_mbpRST38h: in #maemo iirc we agreed not to discuss hypothetical products21:30
timeless_mbpit's considered rude and unfair to those whom might be victims21:30
thiago_homenor do we here, especially since there's a lot of Nokia people21:30
thiago_homeincluding me21:30
timeless_mbpcan we please reach the same conclusion for #meego21:30
lcuk++21:31
lcukfor no other reason other than I want to play it again tonight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI&NR=121:31
RST38htimeless: You are not required to discuss anything you do not want to discuss.21:31
timeless_mbpRST38h: i'll repeat?21:31
timeless_mbpit's unfair to those of us who are hypothetical victims21:31
timeless_mbpplease feel free to use talk or any other forum where we aren't forced to be21:31
thiago_homeRST38h: if you start discussing a leaked product or rumour of one, I'll have to just turn away from the discussion21:31
RST38hYou are being forced to be on IRC?21:32
thiago_homeand so will all the nokians around, or those under NDAs from Nokia21:32
timeless_mbppart of being a community is being conscious and considerate of all members21:32
* RST38h sighs21:32
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slonopotamusRST38h: it's stupid, yep :)21:32
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RST38hCommunity? What community?21:32
timeless_mbpif i want to be involved in meego? yes, i pretty much have to be here21:32
timeless_mbpand yes, my affiliation is listed in my meego/users page, i'm a good boy21:33
* Stskeeps is with timeless_mbp21:33
slonopotamusRST38h: in irc, though, ops set the rules :)21:33
timeless_mbphttp://meego.com/community/irc-channel21:33
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timeless_mbpthat's clearly under "community"  =b21:33
RST38hslonopotamus: Yes, but limiting someone's freedom of speech for an arbitrary reason like this pretty much means losing a face in my book21:34
pavlixwell, is there a reason to think that clutter/mx will get phased out of meego?21:34
timeless_mbppavlix:  please read the published docs21:34
RST38hpavlix: Yes.21:34
timeless_mbpit was in the announcements21:34
slonopotamustimeless_mbp: your link talks about "open discussion"21:34
thiago_homeRST38h: freedom of speech is limited by rules of community21:34
thiago_homeRST38h: and you're in this channel under the rules set forth by the channel ops21:35
slonopotamusthiago_home: link to community rules?21:35
thiago_homeyou don't have to be here21:35
thiago_homeslonopotamus: in the general sense21:35
pavlixtimeless_mbp: I'm of course doing it21:35
RST38hthiago: I suggest you carefully consider the stuff you have just said.21:35
timeless_mbppavlix:  please learn that "Shoot first ask questions later" is not a good policy21:35
ali1234there's that "community" thing again... follow our rules or you're excluded21:35
thiago_homeanyway, if a Nokia rumour or leak is being discussed, all Nokians will have to stop talking21:35
timeless_mbpif and when you do it, you will find yourself being shot at, quickly, rapidly, and without remorse21:35
pavlixtimeless_mbp: I first asked, then was shooted, then reacted21:35
* timeless_mbp leaves21:35
thiago_homeand the result is that you won't benefit from our expertise in the discussion21:36
smokuRST38h, is disallowing cursing also limitting freedom of speach in your opinion?21:36
pavlixdoes it mean this is an elite discussion forum where new people interested in meego are not welcome?21:36
RST38hNot that I am benefitting from it as it is...21:36
pavlixif so, I will leave21:36
thiago_homepavlix: no one has said anything close to that21:36
RST38hsmoku: Depends on the amount of cursing21:37
ali1234thing is that it's possible for an irc channel to be used for multiple topics at the same time21:37
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ali1234what you are really saying is "if you don't do what we say, we're taking our ball and leaving"21:37
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thiago_homeyes, pretty much21:37
pavlixthiago_home: I am sure I really tried hard to keep in reasonable style of discussion and I try hard not to ask stupid questions21:37
thiago_homewe're not allowed to discuss or comment or rumours or leaks21:37
ali1234so don't21:38
RST38hsmoku: Banning everyone who mutters "shit" is a gross overkill, but if someone's messages consist mostly of cursing, than I agree that the person needs to be removed on technical grounds (too much noise)21:38
thiago_homeexactly, don't21:38
lcukthats pretty standard for any industry21:38
thiago_homedon't make us leave21:38
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thiago_homeI don't mean leave the channel. But we must stop talking.21:38
ali1234thiago_home: you don't have to leave. or are you actually not even allowed to *read* the rumours?21:38
thiago_homeoh, yeah. I read all the rumours.21:38
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lcukactually, I think leaving the chan would be the right course of action21:39
thiago_homeI get a good laugh of some of them21:39
pavlixand even though I am new to meego, I believe I might eventually become part of the community, or not21:39
thiago_homeand of some I get worried21:39
smokuRST38h, replace "cursing" with "discussing vaporware" and you're right21:39
RST38hsmoku: No. Discussing vaporware is a legitimate activity21:39
smokuRST38h, both are things not accepted by the majority of the community21:39
RST38hsmoku: What community, again?21:39
thiago_homeRST38h: there are 400+ people in here21:40
smokuyou may find communities enjoying cursing and join them21:40
thiago_homethat's one community21:40
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thiago_homethere's a lot of people working in MeeGo, others posting in meego-dev21:40
thiago_homethose are communities21:40
slonopotamusali1234: "community" thing is actually just plain old oligarchy21:40
ali1234http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman21:40
RST38hthiago: and they automatically become a "community"?21:40
thiago_homeRST38h: a group of people gathered around a topic, with rules, is a community21:41
thiago_homeso, yes, it does21:41
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thiago_homerules, rights and responsibilities21:41
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RST38hthiago: Have you got a dictionary entry to back your definition?21:42
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slonopotamusali1234: thanks for a fun reading :)21:43
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thiago_homeRST38h: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community21:44
thiago_homeRST38h: I think several of those apply21:44
leinirThere are so many hilariously wrong rumours ;)21:44
thiago_homeRST38h: "a group linked by a common policy"21:44
thiago_homeRST38h: "a group of people with a common characteristic or interest living together within a larger society"21:44
RST38hthiago: I am not linked by the same policy as you.21:44
thiago_homeRST38h: "a body of persons of common and especially professional interests scattered through a larger society"21:44
RST38hthiago: And there is no mention of rules, is there?21:45
thiago_homeRST38h: you may not be part of the Nokia community, but you are of the MeeGo community21:45
thiago_homeRST38h: rules don't have to be written down to exist21:45
RST38hthiago: I am not even part of the Meego community.21:45
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thiago_hometacit rules21:45
thiago_homeRST38h: you're here quite often, I consider you part of the community21:45
slonopotamusthiago_home: common interest - okay, RST38h is included. common policy - no way until meego has a declared policy21:45
thiago_homeslonopotamus: you're also assuming that policy requires written down rules21:46
RST38hthiago: Anyways, I suggest you quietly rethink the statements you have made during the last 20 minutes or so21:46
thiago_homewhich ones?21:46
thiago_homethat this is a community? I stand by it21:46
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slonopotamusthiago_home: yep. otherwise you can't be sure people follow same policy21:46
RST38hthiago: COnsider some examples, counter examples, take a few of your suggestions to the extreme, etc21:46
thiago_homethat community implies some sort of rules of engagement? I stand by it21:46
lcukRST38h, you are being a bit prickly tonight :(21:47
RST38hThen I can safely say that I am not part of the community21:47
thiago_homeshould there be some written rules? Yes, but that doesn't mean that unwritten ones can't exist.21:47
RST38hBecause I choose to set my own rules of engagement21:47
lcukpeople are considering their workplace a community and there are folks coming around thinking it is and it will be properly21:47
thiago_homeyes, you can do that21:47
ali1234if a community is going to have rules beyond basic common sense, it damn well better be by mutual consent, and clearly spelled out in writing.21:47
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lcukas long as we give up on bikeshedding about what a community is and other misc rants21:47
thiago_homebut if you were to set those rules as adversarial, cursing and just in general annoyance, don't you think you'd get kicked off this channel?21:48
RST38hlcuk: I am a bit tired of the endless politicking going on at maemo.org, considering the lack of any real action21:48
CosmoHill"bikeshedding"?21:48
RST38hlcuk: And troubled by even more politicking and even less action in meego.com21:48
lcukCosmoHill, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding21:48
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lcuksure RST38h21:48
* lcuk understands that clearly21:49
lcukbut as you have seen things are moving and pieces adjusting21:49
CosmoHillah I see21:49
RST38hlcuk: not really21:49
RST38hlcuk: I see people who do not give a shit about policy doing cool stuff21:49
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Stskeepsthiago_home: i'd like to ask you to raise this topic on meego-community, as these channels is supposed to be work channels and hence everyone involved should feel comfortable.. harms development if people are uncomfortable working in the open or declaring affiliation21:50
lcukRST38h, I see cool stuff all around also21:50
RST38hlcuk: ANd I see people who contribute NOTHING of visible value establish policies21:50
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lcuki agree21:50
ali1234RST38h: that pretty much sums up my opinion too21:50
lcukbut just because its not seen does not mean its not important21:50
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lcukfor instance, the tsg - we do not see them in here often listening and taking part21:51
slonopotamusStskeeps: when you see some crap on t.m.o, you discuss it on irc. where do you discuss such things happenning on irc? :) i have to be there21:51
lcukbut they hear about what happens21:51
Stskeepsslonopotamus: feel free to create ##meego or ##nokia21:52
lcukslonopotamus, extending the info from irc out does occur21:52
lcukit filters through slower though21:52
smokuslonopotamus, #mer :)21:52
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lcuksome of the best things to happen in maemo occur as seed conversations in irc21:52
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slonopotamussmoku: :D21:52
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RST38hlcuk: Most policies I see being establish harm people rather than help them21:52
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RST38hlcuk: Maybe the help "the community" but they harm the people21:53
pavlixhmm, i wonder whether it is wrong to treat meego as just another linux distribution or not... I mean, not developing specifically to the meego api (Qt, as I was told and as it is written on the meego.com site)21:53
lcukpavlix, qt is code once deploy anywhere21:53
RST38hlcuk: For example, discussing leaks is completely relevant w.r.t. Maemo/Meego channel topics21:53
GeneralAntillesGiven its motivations, treating as just another distro may not be entirely productive.21:53
lcukqt native apps run in windows linux mac meego maemo and beyond21:53
slonopotamuspavlix: it's both a distro and a place where new software is developed21:53
RST38hlcuk: It is not noise, either21:53
lcuktry that with any other system21:54
RST38hlcuk: And prohibiting such discussions on the basis that Nokia employees cannot participate in them is illogical21:54
lcukRST38h, no, discussing leaks in a public irc channel amongst nokia/intel employees is off form, and you should have a piece of paper from your own employer talking about things like that I imagine21:54
thiago_homeRST38h: think about another thing: this channel has official status, right?21:54
pavlixlcuk: that said, we know the basic advantage of Nokia's Qt21:54
GeneralAntillesRST38h, just take it elsewhere. I mean, are we so attached to this "community" and this channel that it needs to be an issue. ;)21:54
lcukand please account for that with the rest of people around21:54
RST38hlcuk: Well, you do not see ME talking about my employer in public, do you ?21:55
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lcukRST38h, no, you push the uglyness towards those with other employers21:55
lcukso please have some tact21:55
thiago_homethat's my point here too21:55
RST38hlcuk: But I will never even consider banning someone else from talking about my employer in public only because it makes me blush :)21:55
thiago_homethis channel has official status21:55
thiago_homeby discussing rumours in here, you throw some bad light at those companies21:56
thiago_homeor confusion, at least21:56
RST38hThere is no such thing as "official status" of an IRC channel. It is a channel.21:56
lcukRST38h, just think please, this isnt a ban thing21:56
GeneralAntillesRST38h, Freenode there is.21:56
lcukthis is a common sense thing21:56
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GeneralAntillesAlthough I'm not actually sure if the contact form has been processed.21:56
thiago_homepress or bloggers could be here and think that the discussion is official, that the N9 (or other device) is real and that details are real21:56
GeneralAntilles(given it took 18 months for #maemo's . . . .)21:56
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: we are having ops contact us like it was, so21:56
pavlixI'm very interested about that community repository plan21:57
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, silly argument.21:57
Stskeepsme and dawn is contact points atm21:57
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: real argument21:57
GeneralAntillesthiago_home, your first was more effective.21:57
lcukyeah GeneralAntilles I imagine the GRF speed in the queue will depend on a number of factors such as anticipated size and followup and corporate push21:57
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: then put them both together21:57
lcuki have one in for #liqbase21:57
GeneralAntillesBloggers and journalists will think what they want to think.21:57
RST38hAnyways, I will go get some sleep21:57
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RST38hAll this "official community" business is pretty rotten if you ask me21:57
GeneralAntillesRST38h, the whole business is rotten.21:58
* lcuk just wants to be able to change the /topic in #liqbase21:58
RST38hBut I guess it will just lead to creation of #meego2 or something like that, as it always does.21:58
lcukRST38h, question for whilst you sleep21:58
lcukthink about writing a proper post about your feelings21:58
lcukrather than just irc21:58
lcukand #meego2 is invalid due to the namespace21:59
lcuk##meego is valid21:59
lcukfor non official stuffs21:59
RST38hlcuk: I have no deep feelings on the subject and do not believe in writing posts21:59
thiago_homeGeneralAntilles: yeah, but if they come here and see people discussing the N9 rumour, they will report even more stupid stuff21:59
thiago_homethat's a disserivce21:59
ali1234i would write one but it would be tl;dr and you'd all just say i was trolling anyway21:59
GeneralAntillesali1234, who cares? It's ammo anyway.22:00
RST38hlcuk: As one book character said, "only stupid people write to newspapers"22:00
GeneralAntillesNobody's put down the issues in one spot.22:00
GeneralAntillesWhich makes pointing to them difficult.22:01
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lcukserious business22:05
lcukthp said he has some of gpodder working in meego22:05
lcukits a gtk app22:05
lcukand he used his desktop gtk port to do it22:05
Stskeepsyeah, gpodder is more compatible cos of its non hildon stuff22:06
lcukyeah, my point22:06
lcukso its one of the first gtk community apps to see the light22:06
lcukhow many problems he will have is another issue22:06
* lpotter thinks gpodder is a bit clunky22:06
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lcukStskeeps, how much of hildon did you actually hack to get it into mer originally?22:07
pavlixlcuk how can one join this community apps/repos effort?22:07
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lcukand is it worth following that branch to completion?22:07
lcukI know you have your branch on gitorious22:08
lcukit was running on x86 last I saw of it22:08
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lcukpavlix, the community repos are being constructed, keep your eye on stskeeps and lbt and meego obs stuff22:09
pavlixthanks22:11
* timeless_mbp wonders if zenity is in22:12
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lcukzenity is the console message dialog thing isnt it?22:13
timeless_mbpyeah22:14
Stskeepslcuk, theoretically we could run maemo gtk in meego..22:14
lcukyeah, would a person hacking have a slightly easier time with your patches22:14
lcukor were they not in the right direction still22:15
lcukie, were they still targetting uuntu/deblet/mer stuff specifically22:15
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mikhasStskeeps, I am sure someone will be crazy enough to just do that ;-)22:16
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Stskeepssigh, me again..22:16
lcukmikhas, i hope they will be22:16
lcuktheres some excellent apps around22:16
lcukStskeeps, is that an offer \o/22:17
Stskeepsif someone else takes it over22:17
lcuki think we could happily work together to do it, theres a lot of patches being played with in maemo hildon stuff atm22:17
lcukand finding a way to benefit both sides would be good22:18
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lcukStskeeps, theres all sorts of other more important blockers atm, but I will start discussing it22:21
lcuk(blockers for you I mean with other important work)22:21
Stskeepstheming is a bitch22:22
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lcukyeah22:23
mikhas(ditch theming, then)22:23
lcukit is with any system22:23
Stskeepsbut i suppose its close enough to nuvofre22:23
lcukis there a similar theming system to what we have in maemo22:23
smokumikhas, I am that crazy person ;P22:23
lcukthat people like wazd could hack to22:23
lcukStskeeps, I mean it might be more work for a theme designer, but to make a big bulk qt+gtk theme pack22:24
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lcukusing a major hack of konttori's theme maker22:24
lcukor just get qt themes exported into gtk compatible format22:24
lcukand run on the fly after installing a qt one22:25
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smokuhttp://code.google.com/p/qgtkstyle/ or http://code.google.com/p/gtk-qt-engine/ ?22:31
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Stskeepslatter22:32
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lcukawesome!22:33
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ora-666awesome will be MeeGo WM?? Great!22:34
ora-666gnome for trash filler!22:35
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CosmoHilltroll?22:35
lcukCosmoHill, if you feel like it22:36
CosmoHillhehe22:36
* lcuk vanishes22:37
lcukcyas later \o22:37
CosmoHillbye22:38
* ora-666 is awesome user)22:38
* Jaffa reads lots of scrollback, pointlessly.22:41
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smokuJaffa, +122:42
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thpStskeeps: so, what's the chances of getting maemo gtk+/hildon into meego? (and does it still depend on hildon-desktop for some stuff like the appmenu?)22:50
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smokuthp, zero.22:51
vljhi22:51
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vljStskeeps: can you give me your "catchall" xorg.conf again please ? :)22:52
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smokuthp, MeeGo is Qt based and will not provide GTK+ at all22:52
vljwell you can provide gtk+ and qt22:53
vljqt can use gtk+22:53
thpsmoku: sure. but i'm talking about the technical possibility, not politics / blessings / "the one true toolkit"22:53
smokuwhich is good, because we can just use Maemo GTK+ with hidon changes, without worrying to run hildon on stock GTK+22:53
smokuI am working on packaging hildon (and the rest of fremantle) for meego22:54
thpsmoku: great :) that's what i wanted to hear :p22:55
smokuof course, if you want to run Hildon on stock GTK+ it is possible to. Stskeeps already ported libhildon to stock GTK_22:55
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smokuthere are some changes reqited to hildon if you want to run it with meego window manager22:56
smokubut if you don't and are fine with hildon-desktop, you can just use fremantle sources as-is22:57
thpare there repositories for the libhildon packages already?22:57
mikhassmoku, fascinating22:57
smokuOBS home:smoku22:57
smokubut nut much working now22:57
smokuthere are so many packages, that I do not port them manually - instead I'm writing deb2rpm converter script22:58
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timeless_mbp smoku: are you converting binaries or sources?23:01
smokutimeless_mbp, sources23:01
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smokumy script generates SPEC from debian/ dir :)23:06
smokunot perfect of course. more of a skeleton23:07
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timeless_mbpseems fairly useful23:16
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vljhi23:17
vljerr23:17
vljhow can I maximize a window in Meego ?23:17
vljthere is just a quit button23:18
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timeless_mbpin maemo, there's no need to maximize, windows are always maximized or full screen...23:30
vljnot in meego23:31
timeless_mbpwindow management doesn't really make sense to consumers or in general on small screens...23:31
timeless_mbpreally?23:32
vljat least not on a 15' wide screen23:32
vljyup23:32
timeless_mbpis that a supported config?23:32
vljin ubuntu all windows are maximised by default23:32
vljI don't think it is supporter23:33
vljd23:33
timeless_mbphttp://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1051&bih=712&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=meego+netbook+screenshots&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=23:33
timeless_mbpis what i'm looking at, i can't find any which show indications of other things23:33
Stskeepsvlj: maximized by default in handset ux at least23:35
vljok23:35
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Macerso. any phone support in meego for the n900 yet?23:53
Macer:)23:53
Stskeepswe can turn on the modem and people have had gprs working23:53
Stskeepsin ofono23:53
Stskeepsbut i'm off to sleep now23:54
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vljntp does not seem to work23:57
Stskeepstoo high drift in clock?23:58
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vljit tells me it is 2:58 am23:58
vljmonday 23.23:59
Stskeepstimezone?23:59
vljbut it is "just" 22:58 pm sunday 22. ;)23:59
vljEurope/Paris23:59

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