IRC log of #meego for Saturday, 2010-05-08

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Vladimiroffhello guys. is there meego working snapshot with graphical environment available, yet?00:01
VladimiroffI'm really can't wait of it, and for now, after writting some qt4 app for it, I just could image how it is going to look00:01
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thiago_homeVladimiroff: not yet00:04
thiago_homexterm is the GUI for now00:04
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Vladimiroffthiago_home: I see. Is there some guesses when we are be able to test the gui, or for now there is no such information provided?00:08
thiago_homelike I said, you can test your app now00:10
thiago_homeI think they mentioned the dates in the last TSG meeting00:10
thiago_hometake a look at the minutes00:11
Vladimiroffokay00:12
Jaffalbt: Cool stuff on the OBS server00:13
lbt:)00:13
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* lbt still wonders what we should call MeeGo Universe.... and still likes Surrounds00:15
MyrttiDa Hood00:15
TSCHAKeeeMeegoVerse00:15
TSCHAKeeenot to be confused with MeeGoFirst00:16
TSCHAKeee:P00:16
lbtI did a haiku...00:16
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lbtWe can agree now00:17
lbtFor Surrounds an eulogy00:17
lbtNo poetry here00:17
lbtwhich kinda rules out MeeGo Verse00:17
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lbtalthough to insist on all changelogs being in haiku.... I like that idea00:17
lbtOK, clearly no-one is drinkin00:18
lbtg00:18
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CosmoHillI only read the last line btw00:22
lbtwhat? "g"00:23
CosmoHillthe line before that00:23
CosmoHillg is just a character00:23
th0br0byez00:24
CosmoHillbye bye00:24
lbto/00:24
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* lbt wonders if the app-store application namespace is the same as the distro namespace00:25
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lbtdistro package namespace that is00:26
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TSCHAKeeeoo i know00:38
TSCHAKeeelbt: call the OBS system zathras!00:38
TSCHAKeee:D:D:D00:38
TSCHAKeeezathras always building meego00:38
TSCHAKeeezathras try to build meego even though zathras see compile errors00:38
TSCHAKeee:P00:38
lbtrofl00:38
* lbt goes into error code00:39
TSCHAKeeemaemo was the one who was00:39
* CosmoHill reboots lbt 00:39
TSCHAKeeemoblin is the one who is00:39
TSCHAKeeemeego is the one who will be00:39
lbtswap moblin/maemo :)00:39
TSCHAKeee;)00:40
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TSCHAKeeewow00:43
TSCHAKeeei had forgotten00:43
TSCHAKeeehow bad the pilot was00:43
lbtheh... it had plenty of rough spots00:44
TSCHAKeeelike loooots of aliens that didn't make it into the series00:44
TSCHAKeeelike the planet of the apes dudes in the helmet hoodie things00:44
lbtand a very scary Delenn00:45
TSCHAKeeei keep expecting Dr. Zaeus to pop out. :P00:45
TSCHAKeeeyes00:45
TSCHAKeeewith that red ring :P00:45
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thiago_homeand that the name Satai should never be spoken of00:49
lcukTSCHAKeee, you just invented a whole new computer paradigm00:51
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TSCHAKeeelcuk: what's that? ;)00:52
lcukthat zathras front end - its a must have00:52
lcukseriously - gcc-zathras would pwn all compilers00:53
TSCHAKeeeyup00:53
TSCHAKeeegcc-draal?00:53
TSCHAKeee;)00:53
lcukshould even work as clustered - cos all zathras can help00:53
TSCHAKeeegreat machine on epsilon 300:53
TSCHAKeeethe draal-zathras distributed model of universe compiling00:55
lcuknahhh theres already one of those, but its the dialect of the messages thats wrong.  bifh is so terse and unhuman00:55
lcukditto obs/autobuilder00:55
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TSCHAKeeeit does feel like there is a Grey Council of sorts...00:58
TSCHAKeee:P00:58
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tremnite all, sweet dreams01:27
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CosmoHillcyas02:44
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MibboHi03:15
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MibboIs it anybuddy here who can help me? How to install the MeeGo .usbimg ?03:17
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Alastair1hello :)06:23
Alastair1what sort fo support will meego have for linux programmes?06:23
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nifengwhos07:51
nifengwho07:51
nifeng==help07:52
nifenghow to use the irc? please help!07:52
bfreewhat do you mean how to use it ... you are using it already!07:53
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nifengAre there some useful command?07:53
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nifengHello everybody!07:55
bfreehttp://www.ircbeginner.com/ircinfo/ircc-commands.html (first random hit on a search but it's good enough to get you going)07:55
nifengbfree, thank you very much!07:56
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* nifeng hello!07:57
* nifeng :-)07:57
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sidhhi all10:48
Stskeepslo sidh10:48
sidhcan i compile meego for arm10:49
Stskeepsyes, it is already compiled for it :)10:49
Stskeeps>= armv510:49
sidhok... from where i can downloD10:49
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sidhwhere can i get source of that10:50
Stskeepsrepo.meego.com :)10:50
Stskeepswhat kind of device do you want to port it to?10:50
sidhi want to port it on BeagleBoard10:51
Stskeepsok, there's already some guys organising to do this10:51
sidhbut i dont know the exact method10:51
sidhwhere i can get help for that10:52
Stskeepsyou can try to poke WAHa_06x36 and see http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=11710:52
sidhok10:53
Stskeepsand organise yourselves :)10:53
Stskeepsit should be rather simple10:53
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sidhthanks Stskeeps10:55
sidhbye10:55
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lbtQA process as per maemo: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dY7nnDH4cew/S-UgctHxP8I/AAAAAAAAABY/_aOPeFkMxdg/s400/obs-qa.png11:32
lbtany thoughts?11:32
lbtmodified slightly for OBS application11:32
leinira thought: not marketing ready? ;)11:36
lbtwhaaat!11:37
JaffaMorning, all11:37
lbtJaffa:  :)11:37
lbtthink of the devil...11:38
Jaffalbt: what's the "Home" blob?11:38
lbtraw text ....http://pastie.org/95121411:38
JaffaAnd the difference between Extras:Testing and Extras:Testing_repo? I'd've thought auto-builder vs. repo itself, but we shouldn't be rebuilding at Extras:Stable stage, so I'm now confused :)11:38
lbtcrappy pastie... hold on11:39
StskeepsExtras:Testing would be a obs project and _repo is the resulting repos i guess11:39
lbthttp://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2010/05/community-building-against-meego-and.html11:40
lbtyes.. Stskeeps11:40
* Jaffa reads11:40
Jaffalbt: First clarification - 'home:repo' is shared, like Extras-devel, but may also be used like PPAs?11:41
JaffaAh, no.11:41
JaffaOne home:repo per projecty-thing. So more like PPAs.11:42
lbteach project (directory if you like) results in a repo11:42
lbtthere can be multiple packages in a project11:42
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Jaffalbt: indeed; i.e. dependent libraries, data packages etc.11:43
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lbtwell, a package is a tarball11:44
Jaffalbt: have firewall-like "QA" lines before Extras:Testing and Extras:Testing_repo11:44
lbtOK11:44
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Jaffalbt: That matches your text, AFAICT11:44
lbtJaffa: that's the plan11:44
lbtback in a minute Jaffa...11:45
Jaffalbt: If your home:repo (should be called home_repo?) has multiple packages so that it's a workable, self-consistent set of packages, 1) you have to register all the packages' you're going to promote names; 2) what happens if libfoo is in my home:repo and already in Extras:Testing_repo?11:46
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Termanahey hey11:48
Stskeepslo Termana11:48
TermanaStskeeps, raster was right, Nexus One GLES libs definitely don't support X11. I emailed Brian Swetland (a kernel developers on the Google Android team), he said that they don't :P11:50
Stskeepsdamnit :P11:50
thiago_homewhy should they?11:50
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Termanathiago_home, well, no one said that Google should of made sure they do, since Google isn't focusing on that. But we were just hoping, so that the MeeGo Handset UX could be used (assuming it NEEDS Open GL ES)11:51
Jaffathiago_home: No reason; but I imagine it'd've made a MeeGo port a lot easier if they did :-)11:51
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thiago_homeTermana: it might, by using the Lighthouse port of Qt11:51
thiago_homewhich runs on Android11:52
JaffaTermana: Assuming the Handset UX is entirely Qt based; couldn't an FB-targetting rather than X11-targetting version of Qt be used?11:52
JaffaKinda like what thiago_home just said :-)11:52
thiago_homeand Lighthouse supports OpenGL for a full week now11:52
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Jaffathiago_home: Positively ancient ;-)11:52
thiago_homeof course, that requires the application code not to use any non-cross-platform API (any X calls)11:52
JaffaIndeed.11:53
thiago_homeand I'm pretty sure the MeeGoTouch libraries do (shared pixmaps)11:53
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TermanaIt was the hope that no recompiling would be needed too much, just straight up trying to use the n900 rootfs. If the Open GL ES libraries supported X, this would of been easily possible (at least in theory)11:53
lbtJaffa: the home area is essentially unmananged11:53
lbtyou can create a 'bash' package in there11:54
lbtbut it's clear I need some 'how OBS works' too11:54
lbtthat gives people 'freedom' without any irritating processes11:55
Jaffalbt: So devs would have to sort conflicts when they try to transition to Extras:Testing (just like when they try to go to extras-devel now)11:55
Stskeepsand PPA's by default11:55
lbtyes11:55
lbtwe lose Extras-devel11:55
lbtwhich is a bit of a mess IMHO11:55
lbtStskeeps: yes11:56
Jaffalbt: Is Extras:Testing going to have the same package list across all platforms? (THinking about dev who wants to write cross-platform s/w and the libraries he's packaged and called different things on different archs for no good reason)11:56
lbtNo11:56
lbtThis is 'application store' territory11:56
lbtat the bottom11:56
lbtI have.....11:57
* lbt glances around to make sure qgil isn't here11:57
lbtSurrounds11:57
Termana:P11:57
Jaffa:)11:57
lbtJaffa: hmm ... "Is Extras:Testing going to have the same package list across all platforms?"11:58
lbtwhat's a platform11:58
Jaffalbt: sorry, you called them distros: MeeGo:name-number, Maemo:Fremantle (typo, btw with Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemantle) and Maemo:Harmattan11:59
Jaffai.e. if Extras:Testing is the first step on the road to <sub>Surrounds</sub>, that should be where things start getting consistent.11:59
lbtI think we have 2 areas here11:59
lbtSurrounds and Extras11:59
lbtfairly independent12:00
JaffaBut, as an author, I don't want to have to change my dependencies to libfoo for Maemo:Fremantle; foo for MeeGo:name-number and then submit my own package for Maemo:Harmattan.12:00
lbtExtras is an app store ... as per maemo12:00
JaffaAh, OK.12:00
lbtJaffa: tough12:00
Jaffas/Surrounds/Extras/ in my previous comment12:00
lbtif you depend on a pkg which is named differently in different distros... then you have to12:01
Jaffalbt: Obviously for the "core" packages, that may be necessary; but for the community stuff which is in Extras12:01
lbtah... now that's where Surrounds does come in12:01
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lbtthere is a notional promotion from Extras to Surrounds12:01
lbtwhen multiple apps depend on something12:01
lbteg libliqbase?12:02
* thiago_home read "national promotion"12:02
Jaffai.e. gcobb packages gpe in home and that includes libfoobar. It goes into Extras:Testing. I then package myapp and package libfoobar myself as 'foobar'. When I go to Extras:Testing I should(?) have to change to using libfoobar12:02
Jaffalbt: Understood of big, important, useful things getting promoted from Extras to Surrounds; but what about conflicts for some tiny little library at the other end of the process?12:03
lbtno... we should promote libfoobar to surrounds ASAP12:03
lbtSurrounds is there to serve developers in sharing libraries12:03
Jaffalbt: what if Graham doesn't want to maintain libfoobar for everyone?12:03
Jaffalbt: OK, cool.12:03
lbtwell, one aspect of Surrounds is that we should ideally have a meego-surrounds team12:04
* Jaffa 's finsihed the rest of your text. All largely excellent which is why I'm trying to understand the detail & edge-cases :)12:04
lbtthanks... me too ... it's still a draft12:04
JaffaBTW, I strongly think that moving from Extras:Testing to Extras:Stable should _not_ involve a rebuild.12:04
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JaffaSomething I've been less passionate about at work in the past; but given the problems I've been having recently, I'm now very much in favour of same binary in different environments :)12:05
lbtmmm12:06
lbtI'm on the fence over that one12:06
JaffaIs there a need (technical or infrastructural) for a rebuild? Is there a use-case?12:07
lbtthe situation here is not the same as the one being run for the entire distro internally12:07
lbtwhich does work using rebuilds...12:07
lbtI wonder if Extras should not be allowed to build against other things in Extras12:09
* lbt goes to edit a bit12:10
Jaffalbt: Only things in Surrounds?12:11
lbtyes12:11
JaffaWouldn't the initial bootstrap of Surrounds with useful libraries used by useful apps be slowed down? Encouraging bundling libs with other packages or even static linking?12:11
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Jaffai.e. in the example earlier, gcobb can't submit gpe to Extras until libfoobar's made its way into Surrounds.12:12
lbtcorrect12:12
JaffaThat might not be a bad thing overall, but could be frustrating for hobbyist devs12:12
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lbthow would you expect that to work in Ubuntu ?12:12
JaffaI dunno. Do they have a PPA->(uni|multi)verse process?12:13
lbt?12:13
lbtdunno12:13
lbtwell, yes, they must12:14
lbtbut it may or may not be different for PPA initiated12:14
JaffaIndeed.12:15
JaffaWonder whether they treat PPA-based packages differently for inclusion (or whether everything goes via PPA in some form)12:16
lbtif we allow home: to be PPA (which it is!) then that's what you make do with until you're in Surrounds/Extras12:16
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* lbt is wondering whether my accountant will ask why cookery books are a valid business expense.......... Python Cookbook :)14:43
thiago_homeheh14:43
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lbthttp://wiki.maemo.org/OpenSuse_Build_Service14:56
lbtOK I've rewritten much of that post into the wiki, restructured the OBS area a lot and put some draft process thoughts up there14:57
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GAN900Wee, lots of names I've never seen before and have little to no public presence in the CWG page. . . .15:33
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TermanaGAN900, shouldn't that be a good thing?15:39
Termanaish15:39
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StskeepsGAN900: i actually recognise a fair bit of people15:57
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CosmoHillhttp://black-flag.co.uk/files/inocent-weasel.jpg :)16:48
th0br0heya16:48
CosmoHillhi16:49
th0br0haha, that's cool.16:49
CosmoHillI can't even remember why I opened the fridge now16:49
th0br0^^16:52
* CosmoHill makes some tea and then will try to start his woerk16:55
CosmoHillwork*16:55
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slainehowdy16:57
th0br0what work is it today, CosmoHill?16:58
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CosmoHillhey slaine16:58
CosmoHillI have to do a 1000 ~ 1200 word reflective essay about working in a group16:58
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CosmoHillyou know everyone is going HD crazy17:00
CosmoHillthere are between 3 and 43 HD channels depending on how you get them17:00
CosmoHilland I bet most of them are movies17:00
thiago_homecould be worse17:05
thiago_homecould be like here: there are less than 10 and all of them are useless17:05
thiago_homenothing interesting17:05
th0br0I don't even get HD here.17:05
th0br0:)17:05
CosmoHillWe got HD for xmas17:05
CosmoHill37" Sony HDTV and Sky+HD17:06
CosmoHillmost of the time it's just upscaled TV17:06
th0br0well, we do have 2 hd tvs but unfortunately the dvb-c we've got isn't working properly.17:07
CosmoHillin  my bedroom I have a 20" Dell monitor with s-video and composite17:08
CosmoHillso digital TV looks good :)17:09
CosmoHillit's SD but so much better than analgoue17:09
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CosmoHillI think the next thing I'd do in my bedroom is get a new monitor / TV17:11
CosmoHillhmmmm17:12
CosmoHillbrand new, my hifi is worth more than my car :/17:12
slaineCosmoHill: Looking at getting same TV17:12
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CosmoHillI think the model we have is £300 cheaper now17:13
slainethey drop every 6 months or so, especially as the introduce new models in late autumn17:13
CosmoHilli swear our's dropped £200 after xmas :(17:14
Nadleyhi everybody17:14
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NadleyI'm new with meego, and I would like to know the status of the dev actually17:17
CosmoHilli think meego 1.0 should be out this month17:18
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Nadleyoh cool. And it will be fully working for test ?17:18
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CosmoHillI believe so17:18
CosmoHillthe main focus of 1.0 is the core / backend17:19
Nadleyok17:19
CosmoHilli think it will use the moblin gui17:19
slaineand netbook17:19
Nadleyand it will work on ARM and x86 ?17:19
slainecore will17:19
slaineit's working now, but the handheld ux is a little behind17:19
slainethat'll be out post 1.0 but pre 1.117:20
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Nadleysorry but I'm a little bit new with all this stuff. The core is the system without the UI ?17:21
slaineyeah, Base OS, graphics libraries etc.17:21
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CosmoHillthe core is the things that run in the background / the background17:21
CosmoHilllike the kernel and other software packages17:21
Nadleyok. So the 1.0 version will have juste de core ?17:22
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slainein short, there's nothing useful to see yet, there's going to be a release at the end of may, targeted at x86 netbooks I reckon with an ARM handheld ux release hopefully not long after17:22
Nadleyok17:23
Nadleyand can we get involved in this project17:24
slaineyou can get involved now if you're into the base os17:24
slainedownload the images, tools, make an image, test it out, submit bugs, patches etc.17:25
Nadleyok but what I need to test ?17:25
slainethat depends on your capabilities17:25
slainewhat can you do ?17:25
Nadleythat's a good question :D. I would like to test an image and to report bug but do I need a specific hardware ?17:27
CosmoHillerm17:27
slainethere's x86 and arm builds, check out meego.com/downloads17:27
CosmoHillhave they dropped the SSSE3 requirment?17:27
slaineNo17:27
CosmoHill:(17:27
slaineand they won't17:28
slainewe'll have to make our own generic x86 build with obs17:28
CosmoHillobs?17:28
GAN900CosmoHill, what rock and where?17:28
slainehttp://build.meego.com/17:28
CosmoHillGAN900: the third rock from the sun17:29
slaineGod I hated that show17:29
GAN900So 90s17:29
Nadleyis it possible to try in a virtual system ?17:30
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CosmoHillOpenSuse Build System?17:30
CosmoHill*service17:30
slaineNadley: no17:31
Nadleyslaine:  so I need physical hardware :s17:32
slaineNadley: best advice right now if you're serious is to hang out here as often as possible and get to know what's going on and who's who17:32
slaineThere's no release that's usable to general public. There's base os stuff that's useful for some developers17:32
Nadleyok17:33
slaineonce 1.0 is done and they've had their initial release, then we'll be in a better position to contribute17:33
CosmoHillslaine: is it just the kernel that wants SSSE3 or a lot more packages?17:34
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slaineCosmoHill: anything that does any kind of FP work17:34
CosmoHillhmm17:34
slaineit's gcc compiler option for everything17:34
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Stskeepsthen again atom does make sense considering the low power devices they're targetting17:37
Stskeepsand that there's no real competition on that side amd-wise i guess17:37
dl9pfis there a u-boot rpm in meego already ?17:38
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Stskeepsnot yet, also, u-boot needs various configurations?17:42
dl9pftrue - atm its more "u-boot mkimage" ;)17:43
dl9pfcreating a mkimage package ...17:44
pupnikisnt there a u-boot successor?17:48
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dl9pfthere're boards using it, so anyway17:51
dl9pfthere's no kernel-devel (kernel source) package in the spec for n900 flavour - or am i wrong ?17:53
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CosmoHill"Apple PowerBook G4 non-intel version"17:56
CosmoHillstupid topic17:56
CosmoHillit can't be G# and intel17:57
leinirHey, that topic was set by the department of redundancy department, who set the topic!17:58
CosmoHillhttp://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Apple-PowerBook-G4-non-intel-version17:58
CosmoHilli found it here17:58
leinir*giggles* :)17:58
leinirwell, it has the word "audiophile" in the address, that instantly makes it useless ;)17:59
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* CosmoHill is doing anything but his work18:36
RST38hisn't it Saturday?18:36
th0br0He's a student.18:36
th0br0Weekends don't apply to him ;)18:36
lcuk2working for a student implies sitting in pub18:36
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CosmoHilllcuk: if you're working for a student you're life hasn't gone to plan18:37
CosmoHillyou should have students working for you :)18:37
CosmoHillalso if you use 28 hour days it's currently friday18:38
lcukwell they can carry my beer over from the bar :p18:38
lcukCosmoHill, if ive got a small project in python that i know would run 10x better using native c++ and qt would you be able convert it18:40
CosmoHilli have no idea18:40
CosmoHillbut that wouldn't stop me trying18:40
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CosmoHillworse case, the program wouldn't work but I'd of learn Qt and Python18:40
lcukhah18:41
lcuki heard about a python to c++ parser which i ran over my code - it brought the algorithm and classes out but it was very messy18:42
CosmoHilli have one assignment due in mondayt18:42
CosmoHillone, possibly two, on friday18:42
* slaine is working :(18:42
CosmoHillslaine: you get paid for it18:42
lcukwow CosmoHill i thought you had a rest after your monster one18:42
slaineyes, true18:42
CosmoHillI'm probably making it sound bigger than it was18:42
CosmoHilli have todo a 1200 essay for monday and tweat a website18:43
slainestill, I work all week, would rather spend time with my family out in the sun18:43
CosmoHilland maybe add comment functionaility to it18:43
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CosmoHillhmm18:44
CosmoHillwhat music to put on18:44
lcukwow @ frals and fmms, 200k downloads of community MMS app to date and thats only during testing18:45
CosmoHilland lets pick a target18:45
CosmoHillsay, at least 400 words by the end of the CD18:45
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CosmoHilllcuk: 200 kilobits? that's not much18:45
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CosmoHill:p18:45
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* lcuk adds another assignment18:45
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CosmoHill:(18:45
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CosmoHillhmm18:47
CosmoHillmy lecturer is available 1pm to 3pm on friday18:47
CosmoHillif I need to see him then I'm doomed cos the deadline is 5pm18:47
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CosmoHillif you want my attention set off my highlight so you pop up in the corner18:51
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CosmoHillI hate being given a title and a word limit18:59
CosmoHilland nothing else18:59
CosmoHilla/and/but18:59
CosmoHills/and/but19:00
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lcukCosmoHill, thats the easy part, start by outlining the report you want to write then begin filling in the pieces19:08
CosmoHillI talked to my lecture and got some bullet points off of him19:08
* lbt wants karma for meego19:11
th0br0no~~~19:12
th0br0and heya lbt19:12
lbto/19:12
CosmoHillth0br0: how are your studies?19:12
lbtmy WIP ...http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenSuse_Build_Service/Fremantle_Setup19:12
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th0br0could be better. but that's always the case, isn't it?19:12
CosmoHilloh very much so19:12
lbtthere's more than 9 people in here.... who hasn't given me a thumbsup on http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/19:13
* lcuk checks if he did19:14
lcukyup my thumb is orange19:14
* lbt ignores http://meego.com/aggregator 'cost there are no cute +/i buttons19:14
* lcuk wonders where hes been sticking it :S19:14
lbt:(19:14
lbtlcuk: +119:14
* lcuk thumbs up anything productive 19:15
lcukand especially random quotes from b519:15
lbtmoblin... maemo.... meego .... 3rd age :)19:15
lbttechnically the shadow war wasn't over until the dawn of the 4th age...19:15
leinirWell... won't be ;)19:16
lbtor was that the 4th season :)19:16
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leinirGet your tenses right ;)19:16
leinir(damnit, now i have to listen to HHGttG ;) )19:16
lbtzathras confused me19:16
lcukleinir, for time travelers tense was curious19:16
CosmoHillI only have a control key on my left side19:17
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* lbt is about to make scratchbox-fake19:17
th0br0:P19:17
CosmoHillso when using the mouse left handed my right hand has to reach over the keyboard to the left side to right click19:17
th0br0HHGttG, leinir?19:17
th0br0lbt: B5 really rocks. I'm starting with the 4th episode in a bit19:17
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lcukCosmoHill, in arcades as a little duckling i used to switch arms over and use them crossed because im a left hander and the buttons and joystick were on the wrong side19:18
lbtth0br0: you did start on series 1?19:18
leinirlbt: Aww, but Zathras wasbe such a nice guy! :D19:18
th0br0yes lbt19:18
leinirth0br0: 'tis really brilliant yeah :)19:18
* leinir has the complete collection :)19:18
CosmoHilllcuk: did you see the mouse I posted in here yesterday?19:18
lbtleinir: when did you start the re-watch?19:18
TSCHAKeeeno worry, because zathras is beast of burden19:18
CosmoHillit's meant to be designed for left and right handed use19:18
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leinirlbt: hmm... second or third time? ;)19:19
lcukCosmoHill, it may be a surprise to some here, but i dont see eveyrthing :p no i didnt19:19
* TSCHAKeee has watched the whole series several times through19:19
lbtjust asking because we're on th season dvd 1 too ...19:19
lcukone of my school chums used to hold mouse upside down19:19
lbt4th19:19
lcukwith the wire towards him19:19
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lcukfreaked the hell out of everyone19:19
CosmoHilllcuk: http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_3167.html19:19
* TSCHAKeee has gotten to the point where he starts thinking, "and Mollari walks through the door....now..." :P19:19
CosmoHilllcuk: O.o19:20
CosmoHilllcuk: I bet he loves wireless mice19:20
leinirlbt: Aah right :) Well, i'm on... hmm... episode 13, season 2 i think it is... re-watching it with a friend :)19:20
lcuki dunno they didnt exist when i was at school19:20
lcuk/college19:20
RST38hhttp://hackedgadgets.com/wp-content/computer_mouse_using_a_real_dead_mouse_4.jpg19:21
CosmoHillI have a logictek MX700, the thing murders batteries19:21
lcuki still have a wired ball mouse here19:21
* lcuk wiggles it19:21
* CosmoHill looks at the might mouse19:21
leinir(also, just for the record: my name is not a misspelling of lennier, and due to the rather different spelling also not pronounced the same way ;) )19:21
CosmoHillyou could say the same about my mouse19:21
CosmoHillit's like an up-side-down ball mouse, but you can;t take the ball out to clean it19:22
CosmoHillI can scroll up and left, but not down or right19:22
lcukewww keep your dirty ball to yourself19:22
lbtleinir: it is when I say it :)19:22
leinirlbt: ...my understanding is not required, only my cooperation? ;)19:23
leinirsorry, obedience ;)19:23
TSCHAKeeeHARD DISK ON BUILDER DAMAGED! TIME DESTABILIZED! ZATHRAS FIX!19:23
TSCHAKeee:P19:23
lbtheh19:23
slaineth0br0: hhgttg == Hitch Hickers Guide To The Galaxy, a master piece19:23
lcuki swear theres gonna be a perl script to make that happen19:23
th0br0true slaine. i only read the first book unfortunately.19:23
CosmoHillslaine: the orginal or the new movie?19:24
slainethe books, only heard the radio shows while drunk, loved the tv shows, the movie had it's moments19:24
CosmoHillread?19:24
CosmoHillwhat is the "read" that you speak of?19:24
CosmoHill:p19:24
TSCHAKeeewould you like me to stand over in the corner and rot, or just fall apart right here where I'm standing?19:25
* CosmoHill duct tapes TSCHAKeee to the wall19:25
TSCHAKeee:PO19:25
slainethere he his, brain the size of a planet and he has use irc19:25
TSCHAKeeeas for the movie... do you think they called ANYONE ELSE for the robot?19:25
TSCHAKeeeI don't think so19:26
TSCHAKeee:P19:26
slaineNor the narration, Steve Fry was just perfect for it19:26
TSCHAKeee:)19:26
slainein fact, I'm pretty sure I heard steven fry's voice in my head when reading it years ago19:27
TSCHAKeeei did too19:27
slaineso when I saw the movie, it was like, OMG, that's so right19:27
TSCHAKeeespeaking of steven fry.. i thought it was pretty cool that he recorded a little spot for gnu.org19:27
TSCHAKeeethat made me smile19:28
* slaine puts on the hhgttg movie soundtrack to list to his narration again19:28
lcukfull quote version :D19:29
lcukZathras: All Minbari belief is around three. Three castes–Worker, Warrior, Religious. Three languages–Light, Dark and Grey. The nine of the Grey Council, three times three. All is three. As you are three. As you are one. As you are the One. You [points to Sinclair] are the One who was. You [points at Delenn]  are the One who is. And you–[points at Sheridan]–you are the One who will be. You are the beginning [Sinclair]  of the s19:29
lcuktory, and the middle [Delenn] of the story, and the end [Sheridan]  of the story…that creates the next great story.19:29
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CosmoHilllcuk: I'm not a lefty but I use computer mice left handed a lot19:32
lcuki do too19:33
CosmoHillI think it's something todo with my desk layout19:33
lcukoften i cannot click left and right mouse buttons at once19:33
CosmoHillI have two monitors and keyboards on my desk19:33
CosmoHillso the keyboards are in the middle and the mice are to the left and right of them19:33
lcukdo you type assignments on both keyboards?19:34
CosmoHillno19:34
lcuki have 2 computers and 2 monitors but only use 1 keyboard for both19:34
CosmoHilldifferent computers19:34
CosmoHillone is my windows desktop and the other it often my laptop19:34
lcukthe windows pc pops up as a vnc window on the top monitor19:34
lcuk(which is where all my irc stuff is)19:34
lcuki code and make notes on the bottom one19:34
CosmoHillthe bottom one being linux?19:36
lcukyeah19:37
lcukwell the top one too19:37
CosmoHillatm there is space to my left so that is where the mouse is19:37
lcukbut the vnc window is to windows19:37
CosmoHillmy desktop isn't used to much anymore19:38
CosmoHillnow it's mostly for university work and old computer games19:38
lbtlcuk have you seen x2vnc ?19:38
lcukyeah but this mechanism suits19:39
lcukits windows screen so isnt x19:39
lbtOK... just in case19:39
lbtmmm19:39
lcukwindows machine is what gets sent over the network19:39
lcukdisplayed within linux19:39
lbtah, no19:39
lbtso you sit your laptop to the right of your linux screen19:39
lcuki sit on linux laptop19:39
lcukwith monitor plugged in19:40
lcukits dual screen ubuntu19:40
lbtand when you move your mouse to the right edge of the linux screen19:40
lbtit jumps to the windows one19:40
lcukbut on the top screen i have a window showing windows19:40
lbtthe benefit is no graphics over the nW19:40
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lcuknah its just a window it works19:40
lbttry it19:40
lcukits not an entire screen19:41
lcuki still have linux stuff surrounding19:41
lbtyou get triple screeen for free... and it's faster19:41
lcukno need for faster - glance up i see whats happening19:41
lcukit rarely gets covered19:41
lbtfine19:41
lcukwindows resolution is also set to the same size as the laptop screen19:42
CosmoHillsometimes I'd like to use triple monitor but you can't get USB to DVI for my powerbook :(19:42
lcukso when im unplugged i can still have win in a window without scrollbars19:42
CosmoHillI have, a mac laptop, windows laptop, windows desktop and a linux server19:43
CosmoHillthese are my main computers19:43
lcukwe need battlestation photos to explain19:43
lbtyeah, I got a spare couple of monitors and I have onboard gpu as well as my main GPU19:43
lbtso I wanted to go 3-monitor19:44
slainehmmm, that hhgttg theme always gives me goosepimples, the way it builds up19:44
lbtbut the kernel can't cope with 2 3D GPUs yet19:44
CosmoHillI've seen someone run 7 or 9 monitors off a mac mini19:44
RST38hand what did they have there? iTunes? =)19:45
CosmoHilllinux :)19:45
GAN900Slow19:45
GAN900Slow is what they had19:45
CosmoHillhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzkyOQ19:46
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RST38hHmm...Obama on tv19:48
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CosmoHillI need to install cron or something19:52
CosmoHillI also need to update clamav19:53
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lcuklbt, CosmoHill  http://liqbase.net/liq.battlestation.20100508_002.jpg19:54
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slainecoffee update time19:54
slainefecking wifi19:54
CosmoHillthat's a big monitor19:54
slaineThink I'll try Tomato or dd-wrt, I'm getting sick of this19:54
* CosmoHill makes a note that "feck" is a minor swear word19:55
lbtlcuk: yes, that's what I thought19:57
CosmoHillslaine: I have dd-wrt on mum's router19:57
CosmoHillwe use it as a wifi bridge since netgear sucks19:58
lbtthe top monitor has a vnc display of your laptop19:58
lbtyour other laptop19:58
lcuklbt no thats a view of my windows desktop machine19:58
lbtat work?19:58
lbtor to your left?19:58
lcukthats just infront of me19:58
lcukive got another screen at the side for the multitouch monitor19:59
lbtyes, so you can see that window and your desktop at the same time19:59
lcukthe vnc is the desktop one19:59
lbtbut use one mouse to work on both?19:59
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lcukyes mouse is plugged into laptop19:59
lcukand when its over the vnc bit it wiggles window20:00
lcuks20:00
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lbtcorrect20:00
lcuki know this :po20:00
lbtand when you turn your head, the mouse moves on the windows desktop too20:00
lcukheh no eye tracking20:00
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CosmoHilllcuk: the one with the boobies?20:01
lbtOK, so what x2vnc does  is like that20:01
lbtbut better20:01
lcukbut the "x" bit needs a linux machine20:01
lbtwhat's your laptop running?20:01
lcukubuntu20:02
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lbtright .... shurrup then :)20:02
lcukbut thats native and doesnt need the 2vnc bit20:02
lbttightvnc?20:02
lcukyeah the ubuntu vnc mouse pointer sux20:02
lcukit lags20:02
lcukthis one the local mouse pointer flows20:03
lcukand remote one just keeps up as best possible20:03
lcukubuntu vnc viewer is awful when using 3g20:03
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lcukso tightvnc was betterer20:04
lbtOK, I just want to verify... that window... witht the blacked out bits - is windows.20:04
lcukyes20:04
lbtit sits in a ubuntu screen20:04
lcukyes20:04
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lbtand it shows your desktop which is also displaying to your left on the real desktop monitor20:05
lcukno20:05
lcukthe desktop machine has no real monitor anymore20:05
lbtOK20:05
lcukthe monitor at the side of me is a completely different computer20:05
lcukthat also has a vnc connection but i rarely use it20:05
lbthow many mice do you have?20:06
lcukbecause i can just poke at its screen20:06
lcuk120:06
lbt( good point )20:06
GAN900lbt, wait, what?20:06
GAN900lbt, Linux kernel can't handle multiple GPUs?20:07
lbt3D DRI20:07
lbtusing DRI220:07
lbtafaik20:07
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* CosmoHill wonders if it's a good thing or not that he's never had coffee20:12
lcukits a good thing20:12
CosmoHill:)20:12
lcukCosmoHill, onto your battlestation - with photos and explanations :P20:12
CosmoHillAt most I'd have two redbulls a semester20:12
CosmoHillokay20:13
CosmoHillhttp://black-flag.co.uk/files/battlestation-lcuk.jpg20:15
lcukits not mine!20:15
CosmoHillfirstly, sorry about the mess, it's always like that near deadlines20:15
lcukgah CosmoHill how do you use the monitor behind laptop?20:16
lcuki have mine raised on on a toshiba T1000 and a couple of books20:16
CosmoHillI either close the laptop and use it in clamshell mode20:16
CosmoHillor I use the top part of the monitor20:16
CosmoHillit's only the bottom 3" I can't see from where I sit20:17
lcukmaybe not hte 100020:17
CosmoHillwhat I tend to do is put my laptop closed on my desktop and plug in the monitor and keyboard20:17
lcukyeah mine are as close to seamless transfer20:17
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CosmoHillyou pick something out and I'll tell you about it20:18
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lcuki dunno where to start lol20:19
CosmoHillI must say I do like that pick as it's like a snapshot of life, cos I've really just stood up, moved the chair and took the pic20:19
lbtthe white wire?20:19
CosmoHillif you're talking about the one with red tape on it, it's the laptop power cable20:20
lbtnah, the wiggly one20:20
CosmoHillthere's an ipod one in the front of the AV20:20
lbtby the black thing20:20
CosmoHillthree wires, red, white and yellow?20:20
CosmoHillat the ends20:21
lcukCosmoHill, training to be a bomb disposal guy?20:21
lcuksitting there wondering which wire to cut20:21
CosmoHillif i cut the red one the right speaker will turn off20:21
lcuknot very exciting20:21
lbtthat a lian-li behind the desk?20:22
CosmoHillthe silver computer?20:22
lbty20:22
CosmoHillthat's a jeantech case20:22
CosmoHill£31 from PC world, also my first ever mod :D20:23
CosmoHillit's currently my server20:23
lbtah, not aluminium then20:23
CosmoHillsteel, and flexiable20:23
CosmoHillthe case wobbles because the base flexes20:23
th0br0haha, i like that battlesation, CosmoHill20:23
th0br0what's that poster to the top btw?20:24
th0br0looks like some manga?20:24
CosmoHillit's a comic by VG cats20:24
CosmoHillthe far left one20:24
th0br0k20:24
CosmoHillto the right you have a ticket from a car rally i went to20:24
th0br0I'm talking about the middle one20:24
th0br0with the funny native guy20:25
CosmoHillpink / redish?20:25
CosmoHilloh that20:25
CosmoHillthat's hawk20:25
CosmoHillthe text goes "Rawr! Do your work!"20:25
th0br0k20:25
th0br0It'd clearly evaluate to False in my case here right now20:26
CosmoHillbehinds the two macs on the bottom right is a Dell PowerEdge 440020:27
CosmoHillthe 4400 standing for 44.00kg I think...20:27
th0br0shouldn't you be working and not procrastinating? :D20:27
CosmoHillI blame lcuk20:27
fralsits almost always a good idea to blame lcuk20:28
lcuk\@/20:29
CosmoHillif you have a question I'll answer if20:29
CosmoHillit20:29
* CosmoHill goes back to work20:29
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Corsachmmh, that's a powerbook?20:30
CosmoHillyes20:31
Corsac\o/20:31
CosmoHill(and yes, that is electrical tape)20:31
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th0br0electrical tape?20:34
th0br0ah nvm20:35
CosmoHillthe black stuff holding the LCD assemblery together ^.^20:35
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CosmoHillokay that was trippy20:51
CosmoHillI can scroll sideways too20:51
CosmoHillso I scrolled around and around in a circle20:52
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lbtdl9pf: ping21:02
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dl9pflbt:pong21:16
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* CosmoHill noms dinner21:19
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lcuklbt, the little test app ive been mucking about with in python - i decided to remove the qt dependencies and see what footprint of qt im actually touching21:21
lcukits not complete because for proper app i would need images and text support, but it gives idea21:22
lcukhttp://pastebin.com/vuKMx9zc21:22
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slaineBilly was a mounta21:42
slainein21:42
slaineEthel was a tree growing off of his shoulder21:42
TSCHAKeeedid you get into my blue dot stamps?21:43
TSCHAKeeebecause those aren't stamps21:43
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th0br0lcuk: how good do you know qt?21:50
th0br0(the c++ side)21:50
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th0br0or just another question: why does qt creator encourage such ... weird programming style...21:50
slaineTSCHAKeee, haha, no. I'm listening to some zappa21:50
lcukth0br0, qt is just a library and im learning it in my own way21:51
slaineth0br0: example ?21:51
th0br0slaine: well, ever tried storing your sources in multiple dirs?21:51
TSCHAKeeeslaine: ;)21:51
th0br0i haven't succeeded at that yet tbh.21:51
TSCHAKeeei was listening to Sheik Yerbouti earlier21:51
CosmoHillth0br0: with multiple make files?21:51
CosmoHillth0br0: do you mean like, a source dir, a headers sir, a resource dir ?21:52
lcukth0br0, multi folders are all right where required i used to manage a system with lots and lots of folders21:52
slaineth0br0: I don't think QtCreator is a particularly good IDE21:52
* CosmoHill sticks with vim21:52
lcukthe thing i dislike is split headers/code files in any language21:52
th0br0slaine: true. but the msvs addin only supports the non-express version21:52
lcuki come from vb world nowadays21:52
th0br0lcuk: oh it's very practical for interfaces.21:52
slaineth0br0: the what now ?21:52
lcuki know its reasoning21:52
th0br0CosmoHill: further differentiate between various sub parts ...21:52
lcuki just dislike how verbose i have to be21:52
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th0br0slaine: microsoft visual studio addin.21:52
lcukit makes adhoc coding harder21:52
* slaine gets sick into his mouth21:53
CosmoHillcould you give me a name of a qt file so I can see if it's installed on my mac21:53
th0br0the msvs express version is just a cut down, free one.21:53
th0br0CosmoHill: I think that all Qt apps package Qt anew. THat's why they're so big21:53
th0br0I, personally, don't think that OSX is a particular good system for developing on.21:54
CosmoHilloh god21:55
CosmoHillqt creator reminds me of flash21:55
TSCHAKeeeslaine: THE WHITE ZONE...IS FOR LOADING....AND UNLOADING....21:55
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th0br0^^ CosmoHill21:55
TSCHAKeeeTHIS IS...THE CENTRAL...SCRUTINIZER.....21:55
th0br0It is nasty indeed.21:55
* CosmoHill spent 12 weeks using flash CS421:55
CosmoHilli hate it when lecturers go to you "you must buy this software that you probably won't use after 12 weeks"21:56
TSCHAKeeeCosmoHill: this university is brought to you by Microsoft? :P21:56
TSCHAKeeeand Adobe21:56
slaineBilly had two big caves for eyes. And a cliff for a jaw that would go up and down. And when ever it did, he would hack up a bolder21:56
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CosmoHillMS is fine, we don't pay for that21:57
CosmoHillbut being told you have to spend at least £150 on software is not a good start to the semester21:57
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CosmoHillalso being told that it doesn't work on mac is bad21:57
CosmoHillbut i have a windows laptop now :)21:57
TSCHAKeeethis in addition to tuition21:57
CosmoHilldon't worry, It also have RHEL 6 Beta :)21:57
TSCHAKeeewhich i always found to be fucking hilarious21:57
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th0br0TSCHAKeee: if it were, they'd be getting the software for free21:58
th0br0CosmoHill: what kind of software?21:58
CosmoHillfor uni?21:58
th0br0yes.21:58
th0br0what software did you have to buy21:58
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CosmoHillAdobe Fireworks Pro and UML Studio 721:58
th0br0are you kidding?21:59
CosmoHillno21:59
th0br0First of all, UML Studio is idiotic.21:59
TSCHAKeeeyeah no kidding, who actually uses UML? :P21:59
CosmoHillI paid extra and got a bundle21:59
th0br0I mean, there are enough free alternatives out there.21:59
th0br0And what do you need Adobe Fireworks for?21:59
CosmoHillthe bundle is cheaper than any two products inside it21:59
CosmoHillFlash21:59
CosmoHill*21:59
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th0br0http://www.pragsoft.com/ << are we talking about this uml studio?21:59
CosmoHillyes22:00
th0br0omfg.22:00
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TSCHAKeeeboy, that's a nice little ass raping22:00
slaineTSCHAKeee: I've worked in hell wholes where people designed programs with UML and handed off pieces of the "model" to coders to develope22:00
th0br0Honestly...22:00
CosmoHillwhen i say buy, i mean "acquire"22:00
th0br0I wonder how much money that professor earns from each bundle bought this way22:00
CosmoHillthey get nothing22:00
slaines/wholes/holes/22:00
infobotslaine meant: TSCHAKeee: I've worked in hell holes where people designed programs with UML and handed off pieces of the "model" to coders to develope22:00
th0br0But for such crappy software (by the looks of their webpage..)22:00
CosmoHillwhat I hate is we are taught to use a model that isn't default on anything22:01
CosmoHillso you end up making a custom model anyway22:01
slaineThat's college for you22:01
slaineI was taught COBOL and RPG ffs22:01
th0br0No, learning to do interfaces is a good thing.22:01
TSCHAKeeebut you need college because HR hires people with those thick pieces of paper :P22:01
CosmoHillI also have Windows Server 2008 running MSSQL 2008, I also use Visio 2007, Project 2007 and 2010 and VS201022:02
CosmoHillplus two copies on windows22:02
slaineTSCHAKeee: I disagree22:02
th0br0But you get them for free via MSDNAA right?22:02
CosmoHillat a grand cost of £00.00 :D22:02
CosmoHillif I use QT LGPL I'd have to share my source code?22:03
th0br0why not get VS2008 tho?22:03
th0br0When I once used VS2010 it sucked..22:03
TSCHAKeeeyes...yes you do...cough it up bitch22:03
TSCHAKeeekidding22:03
th0br0CosmoHill: uh, no.22:03
TSCHAKeee;)22:03
TSCHAKeeehehehehe22:03
CosmoHillth0br0: I have 2005 express and I needed a pro feature22:03
th0br0mh.22:03
lcukCosmoHill, ? lgpl can be linked to closed code22:04
CosmoHillmy friend had the installer on his laptop22:04
CosmoHillso it was the easiest to get22:04
th0br0mhk22:04
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CosmoHill(it's a damn 3GB file :o)22:04
Surfagpl is kind of an cancer22:04
th0br0not true surfa22:04
Surfavery true actually22:05
th0br0no. why do you think that gpl is a cancer?22:05
Surfathink how cancer works?22:05
* CosmoHill gets his stuck hamster out of the kitchen22:06
Surfaonce you get it, you never completely get rid of it an eventually it kills you22:06
* TSCHAK2 rolls his fucking eyes.22:06
TSCHAK2Surfa, go away.22:07
Surfagpl as such is something that has nothing attractive as a license22:07
GAN900No trolling22:07
Surfawhy? because i've been workin with licenses and know what i'm talking about22:07
TSCHAK2go away.22:08
GAN900Surfa, you're trolling.22:08
th0br0GAN900: i second that.22:08
Surfano i'm not22:08
TSCHAK2somebody want to boot this guy?22:08
th0br0Surfa: GPL's good part is that you have to share your changes.22:08
Surfacorrect what was wrong22:08
th0br0And now please return to QNet22:08
Surfagood thing?22:09
TSCHAK2Surfa, the advantages of the GPL....and the sheer flaws of your absurd assumption have been pointed out many times over....elsewher.e22:09
CosmoHillhey everyone, check this out: http://cosmo1847.co.uk/blog_images/freddy.jpg22:09
TSCHAK2Surfa, you will not find any friends, expressing it here...22:09
TSCHAK2Surfa, not will you find ANYONE willing to debate it.22:09
Surfahow is that good? almost anyone wanting to make money with innovations see gpl as attractive as cancer22:09
TSCHAK2Surfa, so please. unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to contribute22:10
Surfabsd licenses are much better in almost any way22:10
TSCHAK2Surfa, GO AWAY.22:10
slainecalm down guys, don't feed the troll and use your ignores 'til someone with op can deal with it22:10
th0br0Stskeeps: you there?22:10
Surfawell.. constructive discussion is just to tell to go away? very interesting view of discussion22:11
slaineCosmoHill: what's that, your dinner ?22:11
GAN900Surfa, it's offtopic22:11
CosmoHillhe's my hamster :D22:11
TSCHAK2Surfa, why are you here? it is off topic.22:11
th0br0Don't feed the trolls, GAN900, TSCHAK222:11
slaineCosmoHill: nom nom, hamster, hmmmm22:11
* TSCHAK2 just flips on ignore22:11
th0br0:)22:12
CosmoHill:o22:12
slainelol22:12
Surfafeed the troll :D.. just before i said anything last lines were about lgpl and closed source code22:12
Surfaif anyone wants to have closed code bsd licenses are way best licenses that there are22:13
Surfaand gpl is really referred as a cancer in many places.. it's not my own invention22:14
Surfano matter if you like it or not22:14
ml-mobilewell yes, greedy people will insult something that hasma price they don't like22:14
centoslinuxyou guys like LiMo?22:14
ml-mobileLiMo is not open whatsoever22:14
centoslinuxreally?22:15
ml-mobilereally22:15
ml-mobileplatform is open to members only22:15
Surfaml-mobile, gpl nature is such unattractive for most companies that it's kind of sad22:15
th0br0Surfa: mind that you have not brought ANY arguments so far to substantiate your claims.22:15
ml-mobilemin member fee is $10K, distribution license is $100K22:15
th0br0Besides, take a look at Red Hat. It is very attractive for them.22:15
Surfath0br0, read the lines again and think the terms of gpl and you should see the connection.. really22:16
th0br0Surfa: i asked you a question which i have not received a clear answer to22:16
Surfatyping details with n900 is too painful22:16
ml-mobilethe terms of the GPL are clear, and only annoys the greedy22:16
Surfath0br0, what was the question?22:16
th0br0I asked you to substantiate your claims.22:17
* lcuk just wrote something using the "DO WHAT YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE" :)22:17
th0br0Besides, you're using irssi right now.22:17
th0br0Stop using it if you hate the GPL22:17
Surfaml-mobile, annoys and makes possible innovators go away22:17
ml-mobilethen they can go away22:17
lcukSurfa, theres plenty of innovation in gpl land22:17
ml-mobileif they don't want to play ball22:17
th0br0True innovators don't care about profit.22:17
lcukand i'd rather innovation made in the open remains in the open22:18
Surfalcuk, never said there wasn't.. but could be even more22:18
lcukthen get off your asses and share code22:18
TSCHAKeeethey probably can't22:18
TSCHAKeeebecause they don't have any22:18
centoslinuxml-mobile: LiMo is not open to end user?22:18
TSCHAKeee:o22:18
TSCHAKeee:)22:18
Surfalcuk, sharing innovations may be done also without publishing whole source22:18
ml-mobilecentoslinux:  correct, the LiMo userland is explicitly not open22:19
th0br0ml-mobile: how can they do that?22:19
lcukSurfa, but how does that help people22:19
slaineby writing theor own code ?22:19
ml-mobilesimple, it's not gpl or bsd22:19
lcukif the inovation isnt published and open how can people build on it22:19
th0br0mh ml-mobile22:19
ml-mobilethough there's probably BSD code locked up in it22:20
Surfath0br0, hate is too strong word.. i don't hate it, but see it as unattractive for most of things i'd like to do22:20
th0br0Surfa: I never used the word "hate"22:20
th0br0Ah I did22:20
th0br0my bad.22:20
Surfath0br0, yes you did :)22:20
th0br0What are those things you'd like to do?22:20
th0br0Why do you see it as unattractive?22:20
lcukSurfa, do you have innovations made which you want to allow people to build on?22:21
lcukor are you talking in general22:21
Surfalcuk, of course ideas without source code help developers, but it makes them contribute by themselves too22:21
lcukbut that just means people reinvent same thing?22:22
th0br0how so? if you don't give them any source, they don't really have some foundation to build upon22:22
ml-mobileideas without source are useless, and makes the users dependent on the owner22:22
lcuknow, like i said have yougot specific things?22:22
Surfalcuk, and make it possible to earn some bucks without need to open your own source22:22
lcukSurfa, please answer my question22:23
Surfalcuk, inventing and implementing are two different things right?22:23
lcukpeople can make plenty living with open code22:23
lcukits the person and the contributor, not their results22:23
ml-mobileok, enough idling in the parking lot...22:25
Surfatoo painful to discuss on n900 :)22:25
lcukwell a simple yes or no wouldv sufficed ;)22:25
Surfai think i'll get back to tv to watch hockey22:25
centoslinuxSurfa: you are on N900?22:25
Surfalcuk, ok.. what was the question?22:26
lcukSurfa, "sharing innovations can be done without publishing source" - i asked whether you have innovations to share22:26
Surfacentoslinux, yes.. i think i told it twice22:27
centoslinuxSurfa: :)22:27
fralsSurfa: finland vs denmark can hardly be worth watching? should be a walk over ;)22:27
Surfalcuk, personal or business?22:27
lcukSurfa, both22:27
lcukany22:27
lcukeither22:27
Surfafrals, seems so.. denmark over finland :P22:27
Surfalcuk, then yes :)22:27
centoslinuxi'm considering to buy N900, but should i wait until MeeGo devices comes out?22:27
Surfaif you need a device, no22:28
Surfaby when there is a need, otherwise you'll wait forever22:28
centoslinuxno, i 've two phones already, Samsung Galaxy & Nexus One22:29
lcukgo for it then Surfa where do you post your innovations22:29
centoslinuxno need actually, but i want a true open soruce phone22:30
LinuxCodecentoslinux, I suspect, meego will try hared to be on the new atom chips22:30
LinuxCode-e22:30
LinuxCodebut I dont see that happeneing22:30
* lcuk peeks @ LinuxCode 22:30
LinuxCodethe battery life would be horrid22:30
LinuxCodelcuk, allo ;-D22:30
centoslinuxhmm22:31
LinuxCodecentoslinux, I will get a N90022:31
LinuxCodeit will last at least 2 years22:31
LinuxCodeand maybe then, the intel atoms will be small enough to be more efficient22:31
LinuxCodeunless they will also provide arm stuff22:32
LinuxCodewhich of course, would be nice to have choice22:32
centoslinuxhmm22:32
Surfameego arm stuff? will be of course22:32
centoslinuxno snapdragon22:33
LinuxCodeSurfa, can you quote ?22:33
LinuxCodebe nice to have confirmation22:33
centoslinuxN900 has Cortex-A8, annoys me little22:34
centoslinuxthat it doesn't have SnapDragon22:34
centoslinuxSnapdragon is so fast22:34
LinuxCodecentoslinux, the way I look at it22:35
LinuxCodeIm happy we have something like the N900 at all22:35
centoslinuxagree with you22:35
* LinuxCode waited years for a linux based mobile22:35
LinuxCode loved the N81022:35
LinuxCodeand I will happily replace the N810 with the N900 and my mobile22:35
LinuxCodeehh22:36
centoslinux:)22:36
LinuxCodeN810 + mobile with N90022:36
ml-mobilemore importantly, a (mostly) open linum mobile22:36
ml-mobilelinux*22:36
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LinuxCodeml-mobile, yeh, that is positive too22:36
centoslinuxif someone buys my Galaxy i'll by n900, no doubt22:36
DocScrutinizerTSCHAKeee: huh?22:36
ml-mobilethere are many totally closed Linux phones already22:36
LinuxCodepreferablly I want a device where I can do with it what I like22:36
LinuxCodedistro wise22:36
centoslinuxAndroid fooled me to think i was having Linux mobile22:36
bfreeLinuxCode: there have been Linux phones for maybe a decade or more before the N900, admitedly few you could load your own kernel and os on22:36
Stskeepsth0br0: ?22:36
DocScrutinizerTSCHAKeee: you'll love it, it's a way of life22:37
LinuxCodebfree, I could never ever get my hands on them22:37
LinuxCodeever22:37
ml-mobileclosest was the motoming A120022:37
th0br0Stskeeps: it was earlier requested that the troll, Surfa, be kicked. but he seems to have quieted down22:37
LinuxCodebfree, finsing a reseller was like finding a needle in the sun22:37
LinuxCodefinding*22:37
centoslinuxquestion to ppl from US here: can i use US N900 here in Europe?22:37
* LinuxCode used to experiment with his Jornada 72022:37
Stskeepsth0br0: fair enough, even though i don't have a high opinion of gpl myself :P (bsd licensing ftw :P)22:38
th0br0^^22:38
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DocScrutinizercentoslinux: there's no localized N900 hardware22:39
centoslinuxDocScrutinizer: what abt 3G mhz?22:40
DocScrutinizercentoslinux: The N900 has all the standard worldwide WCDMA frequencies, but is missing a few weird ones used in US22:41
DocScrutinizerstill all N900 are the same22:42
slainelbt, Stskeeps how's the community obs stuff going ?22:42
lcukStskeeps, do you use bsd for all your code?22:42
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lbtslaine: http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenSuse_Build_Service22:42
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: the SnapDragon is NOT the end all be all of ARM cores22:42
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Surfath0br0, :D nice attitude to say someone is a troll and reply nothing constructive either22:43
Stskeepslcuk: when it's my own code yes22:43
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: the OMAP is a much...more balanced design.22:43
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th0br0Surfa: i was trying to be constructive. i asked you to provide proof for your claims.22:43
lcukStskeeps, what did you use for the ircdoofer22:43
Stskeepslcuk: gpl, but that was inheritance22:43
slainelbt, are you ready for me to start my testing ?22:43
Surfath0br0, right.. proofs are in terms22:43
TSCHAKeeecan someone please skullfuck Surfa?22:44
Stskeepssigh - will you people calm down if you get a pint of good beer?22:44
Stskeeps:P22:44
centoslinuxTSCHAKeee: don't get you22:44
lbtooh...  is this a bsd / gpl fight?22:44
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: the OMAP contains a very powerful DSP, in addition to the ARM core22:44
centoslinuxi see22:45
lbtslaine: X-Fade needs to setup accounts and stuff22:45
centoslinux:)22:45
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: and memory i/o between them is well balanced... so while the OMAP has less clock speed...it can do more than a snapdragon.22:45
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: you've spent too much time in the x86 world22:45
Surfa:D22:45
lbtslaine: thoughts on the processes being oulined there would be good.22:45
Surfai have beer already, which is nice22:46
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: if you really want to see the truth between the chips, go look at the data sheets, and study the differences.22:46
centoslinuxTSCHAKeee: hehe, you are right!22:46
lbtAlso, I should have dug up links to existing maemo QA/testing docs ... and we could look for fedora parallels too22:46
TSCHAKeeecentoslinux: clock speed is NOT everything.22:46
Stskeepson a sidenote, is those rpm school things taking tools like spectacle into consideration?22:46
lbtTSCHAKeee: yes, but which chip will diff the datasheets quicker?22:47
centoslinuxTSCHAKeee: yeah, that true. AMD proved that22:47
TSCHAKeeelbt: rofl22:47
centoslinuxthats*22:47
TSCHAKeeeand OMAP4 is turning out to be22:47
TSCHAKeeeawesome22:47
lbtStskeeps: they should... we need guidance on best practice22:47
TSCHAKeeei'd like to see some real hardware using it soon.22:47
SurfaTSCHAKeee, nice commenting there how about constructive discussion and some license difference study for you?22:47
StskeepsSurfa: if you want to discuss licenses without a concrete case, go to the fsf anonymous meetings22:48
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: you are way above your pay grade here.22:48
Surfagpl goes, but it doesnt make it any less cancer like license22:48
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: and you are talking to people who know a LOT more about this, than you do22:48
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: you should quit while you're ahead.22:48
lbthe's ahead?22:48
lbtoh, a head.22:48
StskeepsTSCHAKeee: don't feed the conversation. this is comparable to a discussion on religion. noone wins.22:48
Surfaoh really? so how much do I know or do not know?22:48
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: what is it you do, exactly?22:48
SurfaStskeeps, well said.. :)22:49
Surfalicenses are like diseases and religions22:49
slainelbt, ok, I've to finish up now, but I'll read it over tomorrow and get back. from a quick glance it all looked sane22:49
lbtno, disease is real religion is a delusion22:49
lbtslaine: Sure... would be nice to critique it and flesh it out22:50
slaineonly way to make progress22:50
Surfalbt, discussion on licenses is quite delusive too? or it often appears so22:50
slaineright, time to put the offspring to bed, laters22:50
lbtnight slaine22:50
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lbtdl9pf: ping again... got called away, sorry.22:51
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: what is it, you do, again?22:51
dl9pfpong22:51
lbto/22:52
SurfaTSCHAKeee, why do you take this so personally?22:52
lbtjust looking at crosscompile and I think you've been working on it?22:52
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TSCHAKeeeSurfa: because people like you contribute nothing to society.22:52
Surfathat's what you think22:52
Stskeepsright, that's it - if you want to argue, do it in private, or go to #outside22:53
Stskeeps:P22:53
DocScrutinizergentlemen, could you maybe take it elsewhere?22:53
Stskeepsi'm sure you can have a intelligent conversation between you two22:53
lbtI was building deb based arm pkgs dl9pf, and it needed the static packages22:53
Surfano need to argue :)22:53
Surfai'm not personally insulted.. so all is just fine22:53
DocScrutinizerno, it's not22:54
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: you are pissing off people in here, for no constructive purpose.22:54
lbtdl9pf: is that new?22:54
Stskeepsright, so let's leave this be and let's get back to discussing cross compilation, architectures and bacon22:54
TSCHAKeeeSurfa: GO AWAY.22:54
dl9pfyes, any statically compiled bash/mount will do22:54
StskeepsTSCHAKeee: calm down.22:54
* TSCHAKeee takes a xanax.22:54
* DocScrutinizer suggests temporary +q22:54
dl9pffor now, we need these . removing this dependency is work for after 1.822:55
lbtdl9pf: OK - just checking. Not noticed needing it before22:55
Jartzawhat's up22:55
dl9pfthen it was buggy before ...22:55
dl9pfor didn't work22:55
centoslinuxnow i made my mind up to N900!!!22:55
lbtthis is simple deb/arm building22:55
centoslinux how much is N900 in Canada?22:55
dl9pfchroot ?22:55
lbtyes22:55
dl9pfok, then its overkill, right22:56
lbtor it could be that the VMs had it installed22:56
lbtI'm using uber-minimal installs now :)22:56
dl9pffor chroot its overkill, for VM its mandatory22:56
Surfai still can't see a reason why these discussions are always taken so personally.. but perhaps we should quit anyway..22:56
* Surfa offers handshake for TSCHAKeee 22:56
lbtit appeared to be tested for in the build... OK... so long as it's known behaviour :)22:57
TSCHAKeeelbt: quick question, did you back up the factory image on your joggler?22:57
lbtmake up with Surfa first22:57
* Stskeeps glares at gcc22:58
* TSCHAKeee rolls eyes. continues hacking22:58
centoslinuxis it possible to make apps with Python in N900?22:58
dl9pflbt: code got refractored. but we can look as its not needed in chroot mode22:58
fralscentoslinux: yes22:58
lbtdl9pf: OK... are you merging the arm/deb x-compile?22:58
dl9pfit only needed for startup inside worker-vm22:59
dl9pf?22:59
lbtdeb/rpm I meant :)22:59
centoslinuxfrals: cool. I can't GTK22:59
dl9pfwhat do you mean ?22:59
lbtI assumed this was part of the accelerated x-compile?22:59
lbtor are we still on emulated gcc?23:00
dl9pfwhich deb builds ?23:00
lbtI'm doing deb/arm ... for fremantle maemo.org OBS23:01
lbtwhich is why I didn't expect the need for static bash/mount23:01
lbtbut you said it was being refactored...23:02
dl9pfrefractoring of "build" script23:02
dl9pfcauses this23:02
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lbtOK... I'll review it23:03
dl9pflbt paste your version of common_functions23:04
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lbthttp://pastie.org/95175223:06
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dl9pf    is_emulator_arch || return23:08
dl9pf    if [ -z "$VM_TYPE" ]; then23:08
dl9pf        return 023:08
dl9pf    fi23:08
dl9pf    # to run the qemu initialization in the XEN chroot, we need to register it with a statically build shell23:08
lbtyeah, makes sense23:08
dl9pfinsert this23:08
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dl9pfin case - just try "build" from git head23:10
lbt*nod*23:10
dl9pfi've symlinked it to my git working directory :P23:11
lbt:) me too for my desktop23:11
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lbtthis is the maemo.org OBS23:11
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lbtit's running 1.7.323:11
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CosmoHillson of a table23:36
* CosmoHill stabs23:36
lcukCosmoHill, why did you just stab the nightstand?23:36
Stskeepsrandom23:36
CosmoHillhttp://group.black-flag.co.uk/article.php?ID=10123:37
CosmoHillthe address is in a table23:37
CosmoHillif you resize the window it goes over the bordre23:37
lbtusually tables are in addresses23:37
lcuklbt or sometimes in flatpacks on the way back from ikea23:38
lbtyeah, that too23:38
lbtCosmoHill: I see what you mean:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/96141280@N00/4590102180/23:40
lcuklbt i'd forgotten your like of tabs23:41
CosmoHillis that what they are?23:42
* lbt can multi-task...23:42
lbta lot23:42
CosmoHillany ideas?23:43
lbtis it your html?23:43
CosmoHillyes23:43
CosmoHillhave a look at the source if you want?23:44
lbtit only fails to wrap because the website url is too long23:45
* lbt loves firebug23:46
CosmoHilldamn you're right23:46
lbtI know, it's a curse23:46
CosmoHiller i mean, thank you, you're right23:46
lbtdo you have firebug?23:47
CosmoHillnope23:47
lbtget it... but buy a nappy first23:47
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CosmoHillnow, if you could help fix the facebook thingy :)23:52
lbtfacebook is broken by design23:52
CosmoHilloh i see23:52
th0br0lbt: ++23:52
CosmoHillthe width is hard coded23:52
lbthave you got firebug yet?23:53
CosmoHillno23:54
CosmoHillbut I fixed it anyway23:54
lbtdon't you trust me?23:55
CosmoHillI do23:56
* lbt clickies firebug just because it's so cool23:57
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