IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-04-18

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JartzaWhoa01:22
JartzaI remember configuring irssi for freenode and #meego, but forgot it and didn't notice until now :D01:23
JartzaWell. Hi everyone.01:24
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Jartzaseems to be quite quiet also at this time01:29
GAN900Jartza, lot of people recoving from the LF Summit. ;)01:30
GAN900or stuck in airports.01:30
Jartzayeah :)01:31
Jartzano use going into airport here, all closed01:31
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CosmoHillanyone uses a non-qwerty keymap?01:32
GAN900Dvorak01:32
Jartzafrench people are, at least :)01:33
CosmoHillwhy'd you change to that?01:33
Jartzaand german :)01:33
CosmoHillyou pedantic SOB :p01:33
GAN900CosmoHill, easier on the hands01:33
GAN900Less movement01:33
JartzaCosmoHill: hey, I'm an instructor and a coder, what would you expect :)01:34
CosmoHillhehe01:34
CosmoHillI had my lecturer correcting spellings and grammar in my comments01:34
Jartzawell done01:35
Jartza:D01:35
JartzaI'm not going to correct anyone's spellings or grammar here, at least01:36
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CosmoHillGAN900: what keymap did you use before?01:38
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JartzaI actually tried dvorak sometime around 98-99 but didn't like it, at least not the finnish mapping01:39
Jartzait was ok for english typing though01:39
CosmoHilli was thinking of programming01:39
CosmoHillI'm on qwerty now and I can touch type pretty fast01:39
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CosmoHillI still have to think about how to spell qwerty tho :/;01:40
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Jartza:)01:40
GAN900CosmoHill, QWERTY01:41
GAN900I got about 80-140 on QWERTY01:41
GAN900about 90-140 on Dvorak.01:42
GAN900Hand and wrist strain is really the reason to do it, though.01:42
CosmoHilli think my main wrist strain is mainly from the mouce01:43
GAN900Mmm01:43
CosmoHilli think if I want to give dvorak a go I should do it in summer01:45
GAN900CosmoHill, two things01:45
GAN900make sure you move your caps around01:45
GAN900and make sure you keep typing QWERTY while learning.01:46
CosmoHillcaps?01:46
GAN900CosmoHill, that way you can type whatever's on the caps01:46
GAN900Key caps01:46
GAN900Tops of the keys01:46
GAN900If you don't have a keyboard you can move keys around then buy one01:46
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CosmoHillI made a dvorak keyboard once but the keys were uneven01:47
CosmoHillI could touch type qwerty on it01:47
GAN900Because if you learn to type on a QWERTY labelled board with Dvorak in software then you wont be able to type QWERTY anymore.01:47
CosmoHillit was fine unless I looked down01:47
GAN900Yeah, get one with moveable keys01:47
CosmoHillooo good point01:47
timeless_mbpJartza: i'm glad to hear there's a finnish lecturer who's concerned about spelling01:48
GAN900CosmoHill, I can type both layouts fine01:48
GAN900CosmoHill, but I can only type whatever's on the caps.01:48
GAN900Even though I touch type01:48
GAN900It's kinda weird01:48
CosmoHilli know what you need01:49
CosmoHillDas Keyboard Ultimate01:49
GAN900I have to calibrate myself whenever I change layouts.01:49
GAN900Pfft01:49
GAN900Piece of shit01:49
GAN900pckeyboard.com01:49
GAN900IBM Model M.01:49
CosmoHillhttp://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_3083.html01:50
GAN900One True Keyboard :P01:50
CosmoHillthat looks awesome but i think they might have gone a little to far01:50
CosmoHillfor example, print screen01:50
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javispedroGAN900++02:00
javispedroI remember that keyboard from my childhood. It's like a dream.02:01
javispedroMaybe I'm idealizing it a bit too much :)02:01
Jartzatimeless_mbp: well, not that much of the english spelling, although I usually try my best, even that it's not my native language :)02:03
CosmoHillwhy is a Dvorak keyboard so hard to buy >.<02:04
CosmoHillaaaaahhhhhhhhh02:10
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CosmoHillbollocks02:11
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CosmoHillGAN900: http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_3055.html ooo02:29
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CosmoHilllooks like it should be easy to convent it to dvorak02:32
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CosmoHillcyas04:40
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orospakrHave the upstream developers at (I assume) Intel, Nokia, and LF done anything publicly?  I don't see too much activity in this channel...04:56
GAN900orospakr, how do you mean "publicly"?04:57
GAN900Several of the engineers are on here frequently, they have tsg meetings here, code is available04:58
GAN900many discussions take place on the mailing lists04:58
GAN900They also just had a full day for MeeGo at the LF Summit in SF.04:58
orospakrexcellent; I really should have looked at the lists.05:00
orospakralas, I was only able to make it to ELC/Collab Summit last year.05:02
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Termanahey hey07:54
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th0br0heya11:56
Stskeepsmorning th0br011:57
th0br0:)11:57
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* lbt tries another "osc build mic2-image.kiwi"13:45
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th0br0:) lbt14:08
* Stskeeps continues hacking his joggler with meego14:08
dgegneis the netbook UI ready?14:09
Stskeepsno idea14:10
dgegnei'd like to give it a try14:11
Stskeepsi'd like to try out handset UX personally14:11
Stskeepson my joggler14:11
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thiago_homeif it's not been released, it's not ready14:17
thiago_homethat is not to say that it will be ready when it is released14:17
lbtthiago_home: ah. "Available when ready".... that's the kind of habit we need to break14:18
thiago_homethat's exactly what I said14:18
thiago_homeout is a necessary condition for being ready14:19
thiago_homeit's not a sufficient condition14:19
lbtready is a sufficient condition for being out. It's not a required condition.14:20
lbtthe problem is that Meego is treating "ready" as being required for "out"14:20
lbtwhich != open enough14:20
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thiago_homeyes, ready is a sufficient condition for being out14:22
thiago_homebut it can be out before it's ready14:22
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thiago_homeand well it should14:22
TermanaI think you guys are playing on words here, I'm pretty sure dgegne was implying ready as in available to use, not ready as in good usability14:22
thiago_homeyes14:23
thiago_homeand I pointed out that, if it's not even out yet, it's not ready14:23
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TermanaI didn't say you weren't making a valid point :P I just meant that I think that you may confuse someone that doesn't know what your talking about if you expand their question into another one, without giving them a clear answer first.14:25
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ShadowJKI guess his beef is that if MeeGo is supposed to be open development, but things still mostly get created inside hidden repositories or on harddrives somewhere, and only appear in big chunks to MeeGo when "ready", as if each commit into MeeGo was a release of the software in question, that such a model doesn't meet his expetations of what open dev means :)14:26
TermanaShadowJK: :P again, I'm not saying he didn't have a valid point, I'm just saying that someones question was expanded past the scope of the question, and someone could get confused if you don't offer them a clear answer to their question before doing that.14:28
* thiago_home agrees14:28
ShadowJKThere certainly are projects where developers work on a feature entirely on a local repo on his PC until it's functional, and then commit it as a huge blob. Sometimes with the dev history, sometimes not14:28
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dgegnethiago_home they showed netbook UI at IDF14:31
dgegneso there's something ready14:32
Stskeepsdemos != ready14:32
Stskeeps:P14:32
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thiago_homedgegne: I didn't know that14:33
Stskeepsbut yeah, it's a bit of a bad situation when a project's supposed to be open, except now hardware vendors is showing it off, instead of everyone having the ability..14:33
thiago_homeyou know what the problem is, right?14:33
thiago_homeif you start releasing code that is not good enough, the press will kill us14:33
Stskeepsthat too14:33
CosmoHillthiago_home: you know about sparc computers right?14:33
thiago_homeCosmoHill: somewhat, yes14:33
thiago_homeCosmoHill: I have access to one 16-CPU UltraSparc and one with 2414:34
CosmoHillI'm looking at getting a SunFire V240 for about $192 USB14:34
CosmoHill*USD14:34
Stskeepsthiago_home: except in a open project, these risks have to be taken - nokia will base on a stable meego release anyway most likely14:34
Stskeepsnot the intermediate14:34
ShadowJKthiago_home, I think you need to readjust the standards by habitually comtting uncompilable code on friday afternoons, fixing it next thursday evening but breaking the build system, fixing build system again shortly after comitting uncompilable code again on friday.14:35
lbtShadowJK: BAU14:35
CosmoHillthiago_home: does that sound like a good price?14:36
lbtCosmoHill: that's shipping. How much is it to upgrade your house elecy supply?14:36
ShadowJKYou can have my Sparcstation5 and Netra for free if you pay shipping ;p14:37
CosmoHilllbt: it uses kettle leads14:37
CosmoHilland that price includes shipping14:37
thiago_homeShadowJK: sounds like Qt development14:38
thiago_homeShadowJK: all 8 staging branches were broken on Friday afternoon14:38
thiago_homeCosmoHill: I have no idea about prices, sorry14:38
CosmoHillthat's okay14:39
CosmoHillI'm just thinking, my 500Mhz Sublade 100 was £5014:39
CosmoHillfor a little over double the price I'm getting two 1.2Ghz processors and a load of RAM + HDD space14:39
CosmoHill(yes I realise I'm basically talking myself into a buy)14:40
thiago_homeI have to ask: why?14:42
* ShadowJK switched from buying sparc crap to buying arm crap14:42
ShadowJKtakes up less space14:42
ShadowJKthiago_home, sssshhh, the guy's in love14:42
CosmoHillcos my subblade 100 takes a week to do a CLFS build14:43
thiago_home32 general-purpose registers, 24 of which rotate14:43
thiago_homebut they rotate in 16 increments14:43
CosmoHillI've just seen a military helicopter fly over :o14:44
thiago_homeflights allowed?14:45
thiago_homeairspace is still closed here14:45
* thiago_home is somewhat glad he didn't go to LCS14:45
lcukthiago_home, i think i commented on a qt bug from 200414:45
lcukaccidentally14:45
lcuk:D14:45
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CosmoHillthiago_home: nope, still closed14:46
thiago_homelcuk: I thought we had closed all of those :-)14:46
lcukyou did, but i commented anyway14:46
lcukwith a big block of info14:46
CosmoHillit took my a moment to go "wait,uk airspace is closed so what are you doing in the sky?"14:46
lcuki wanted a qt native method of doing something14:46
lcukand the only way i could do it was to make OS specific callouts14:46
thiago_homedoing what?14:46
lcukmulticast networking14:46
thiago_homeah, right14:47
thiago_homeQTBUG-9 or 1114:47
thiago_homeyou have me to thank for it being imported in the first place into JIRA14:47
lcukhttp://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-714:47
lcukof course14:47
thiago_homeit's not very hard to do it14:47
thiago_homejust a couple of extra functions in QUdpSocket14:47
lcukand some of the google results i found led to there14:47
lcukand thats a dead end \@/14:47
lcukof course its not hard14:47
lcuki posted a load of places where people have answered it for various OSes14:48
lcuksome even from qt faq and stuff14:48
thiago_homelike I said, not hard14:48
thiago_homeit's basically adding the methods to add and remove group memberships14:48
lcukbut as it stands i cannot use pyqt or pyside to do native qt cross platform multicast14:48
thiago_homeplus setting a couple of options14:48
thiago_homethe issue is that UDP behaves differently on each OS14:49
lcuki could easy step outside the walled garden14:49
lcukbut then it will break elsewhere14:49
thiago_homewe have an open issue on Solaris that the "reuse socket" flag works the opposite of what it's supposed to14:49
* lcuk nods14:49
thiago_homeyou can get the socketDescriptor from the QUdpSocket and add your membership14:49
lcukand then when i run that code on windows or something it will fail14:50
thiago_homethen you continue using the sendDatagram and receiveDatagram functions14:50
thiago_homeyeah14:50
lcukunless i put heavy defines in (can you use ifdef in python?)14:50
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CosmoHillthiago_home: http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/album.php?albumid=8&pictureid=114 :)15:30
thiago_home:)15:31
thiago_homeour Sparc are running Solaris though15:31
CosmoHillsolaris doesn't like my sunblade15:32
th0br0"your kernel"?15:32
CosmoHillfor a start the sunblade gives an error about the IPROM checksum being weird and I have to boot it via keyboard / serial15:33
CosmoHillI built a custom linux kernel15:33
CosmoHillthe rest of the system is ubuntu15:33
th0br0kk15:33
th0br0"audio assignment" _> ?15:33
CosmoHill"Introduction to sound" is a module I had to do in my first year15:34
th0br0ah ok15:34
th0br0what are you studying?15:34
CosmoHillI basically chose the wrong story todo and got a C15:34
CosmoHillComputer Science / Computing15:34
th0br0:) that subject sucks here in germany kinda, mostly theoretical if studying at some university.15:35
th0br0if you graduate, you'll rather have some administrative role, no real programming, but are well paid...15:36
CosmoHillas it turns out I'm actually doing computing15:36
th0br0:)15:36
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CosmoHillwhich involes a lot more pratical things15:41
CosmoHilltbh i got out of bed 2 hours ago with the intention of working on my C++ assignment15:41
Zeikko_CosmoHill: thanks for reminding about those :S15:43
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CosmoHillI have 4 and will be panicing soon15:43
ZeikkoWhen is the deadline? Tomorrow?15:43
CosmoHill3 and a bit weeks15:44
ZeikkoHuh, they must be large assignments then15:44
CosmoHillthey were set in late feb / early march15:44
CosmoHillplus I have todo the right up for them all15:45
CosmoHillGAN900: http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/album.php?albumid=8&pictureid=22015:45
thiago_home"What is a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor ?"15:45
* CosmoHill explodes15:45
RST38hThat is someone using Bjarne Stroustrup's book for smoking rather than reading15:46
CosmoHillprotected means that you can't access it directly but it can be inherited15:46
CosmoHillvirtual means that you need to implement it later in the child class15:46
thiago_homethere are two "virtual" in the sentence15:46
thiago_homeboth of them are qualified15:46
RST38hCosmo: Actually, no.15:46
RST38hCosmo: That would be "pure"15:47
RST38hBut, to simplify things, any time you see something like that, RUN.15:47
thiago_homepure virtual, which is one of the two qualifications15:47
CosmoHilla destructor is something that is ran when the object goes out of scope15:47
thiago_homeok, so destructor15:47
thiago_homewhat's a private destructor?15:47
RST38hA destructor that is private?15:47
thiago_homewhat's a pure virtual private destructor?15:48
CosmoHillsomething you do away from the pubic?15:48
CosmoHillbad programming?15:48
CosmoHillif it's private can't inherit it15:48
CosmoHillbut it's also pure virtual which means you must implement it in the inherited class15:48
thiago_homeyou forgot "C++, where your friends can see your privates"15:48
CosmoHillI have never heard that before but I am glad I have my legs crossed15:49
thiago_homeanyway, yeah15:49
thiago_homenow what's a virtual base?15:49
CosmoHilla base datatype?15:49
thiago_homeyes, it's a base. What's a virtual base?15:50
CosmoHillis it a custom datatype that you will implement later15:50
CosmoHilllike a class15:50
thiago_homeno15:50
RST38hthiago: May I ask about the reason for your inquiry? =)15:51
thiago_homejust making fun15:51
* CosmoHill thinks he's doing well15:51
thiago_homethat question about "protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor" is well-known15:51
th0br0virtual base -> template ?15:51
thiago_homeclass B: virtual public A {};15:51
RST38h(I mean, are you really unfortunate enough to deal with the fallout from some "C++ hacker" employment or is it somethign you are going to introduce yourself?]15:51
thiago_homeA is a virtual base of B15:51
CosmoHillI think I've missed placed one of my keyboards15:52
CosmoHilloh no i found it15:52
th0br0yeah, i saw the solution.. .crazy...15:53
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CosmoHillI have to load data from a file into my program15:54
CosmoHillI'd like to use XML but i duno where to start15:54
th0br0tinyxml is your friend15:54
CosmoHillis there a standard c++ library that i could use or would I be looking at something l iike boost15:54
th0br0you need a base node ofc. to facilitate stuff.15:54
th0br0tinyxml++ likely.15:54
thiago_homethere's the Standard Template Library15:55
th0br0not for xml tho15:55
thiago_homethat's the only thing they'll allow you to use in classes, though15:55
CosmoHillI have other things todo before I get there so I'll ask15:55
th0br0write an xml parser yourself...15:56
CosmoHillthat sounds kinda big15:56
th0br0well...15:56
th0br02 classes?15:56
CosmoHilli meant  in terms of work15:56
th0br0mmh... it's mostly recrusively parsing everything...15:56
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th0br0a map for every node's parameters and a list for all the subnodes15:58
th0br0ofc, reading stuff out of that might be difficult ;)15:58
th0br0depends on how deep you recurse / xml structure.15:58
th0br0imho15:58
RST38hCosmoHill: We ended up writing a tiny xml parser15:59
thiago_homethat's loading the entire XML into memory15:59
RST38hOnly handles a subset of XML, but that is sufficient for reading config15:59
th0br0thiago_home: well, yeah, in case that he wants to save the xml later on.15:59
CosmoHillon mo15:59
thiago_homethat's not the point...16:00
thiago_homethe point is that the XML file could be big16:00
CosmoHillexcluding main, I have 8 classes16:00
th0br0thiago_home: unlikely for a config file though, but you're right16:01
th0br0what are you writing, CosmoHill?16:01
thiago_homeI'd stream-parse the file and store the data in my own config structure16:01
thiago_homeif you need to save, re-generate the XML from the config16:02
CosmoHilla text based RPG game with linked lists16:02
th0br0what do you need the linked lists for?16:02
Zeikkolinked lists for the win :D16:02
CosmoHillmapClass has a linked list of locationClass16:03
th0br0i think maps would be easier but ;)16:03
th0br0nvm that, maps aren't that different actually...16:03
CosmoHilllocationClass has a linked list of items and people16:03
th0br0are you using polymorphism?16:03
CosmoHillplus it's a requirment16:03
th0br0you are required to separate between items and people?16:03
CosmoHillI'm probably not but remind me what that word means again16:04
th0br0inheritance...16:04
th0br0you have a basic class Actor which both, Items and People, share.16:04
RST38hMay I suggest using dynamic arrays rather than linked lists?16:04
CosmoHillwe have a characterclass that is inherited into player and nonplayer16:04
th0br0do you have a basic actor class? :)16:04
CosmoHillRST38h: probably not, it is a requirement that I used a linked list16:05
lcukdynamic arrays need reallocating and copying for extending dont they?16:05
CosmoHillth0br0: that is character class16:05
lcuklinked lists win16:05
RST38hWhose requirement? =)16:05
th0br0CosmoHill: do the items use that too?16:05
CosmoHillmy lecturer's16:05
CosmoHillhold on a mo, I'll draw a diagram16:05
RST38hlcuk: Cause all kinds of malloc bottlenecks and give you a plenty of opportunity to leak memory, if you are careless16:05
CosmoHillcan everyone see blue?16:06
RST38hlcuk: A secret weapon against them is a dynamic array that never shrinks its storage, just grows16:06
lcukRST38h, same with anything16:06
lcukif malloc fails you are pretty much screwed16:06
RST38hlcuk: malloc does not "fail"16:06
lcuksure it does16:06
th0br0RST38h: you'd normally iterate through the vector though (for drawing, collision checks, etc.) so why would a vector be more useful here?16:06
RST38hlcuk: it is just way to slow for fast repeated allocation16:07
th0br0to be expected, CosmoHill16:07
thiago_homecache hits16:07
RST38hth0br0: query-wise, array and linked lists are pretty much the same, except that arrays give you better data locality16:07
th0br0mh, so a small speed-boost16:08
RST38hth0br0: deletion-wise, arrays are bitches of course, but in a lot of cases you never delete or do it rarely16:08
th0br0true.16:08
RST38hth0br0: *or* can express your list as a stack or a queue (deletion from these is easy)16:08
lcukdo you hold the array contents byval or byref16:08
th0br0but if he's writing a rpg, he might have to remove entries when, e.g. an item is picked up or an actor dies16:08
RST38hth0br0: Now, addition to the end of the list or array is the same, except that for a list you always have to malloc16:08
lcuklinked lists allow self walking and knowing neighbour relations from the object itself16:09
lcukyou cannot make that assumption with an array16:09
RST38hth0br0: Yes, but he wont be deleting hundreds of items from the lists of thousands every second16:09
th0br0lcuk: wouldn't byref be faster?16:09
th0br0true RST38h :)16:09
lcukbyref linked lists still have fragmentation16:09
lcukand the objects know nothing about their neighbours16:09
RST38hth0br0: Important thing array gives you is control over memory allocation. You allocate at one spot, in a very controlled way16:10
lcukremoving an item from the middle of an array is a ballache16:10
lcukmalloc works on similar slabs already RST38h16:10
RST38hth0br0: So, if you can get away with defficiencies (and in many cases you can), then arrays are a way to go16:11
th0br0mh16:11
RST38hFor other cases, there are lists (in which case you should allocate in Add() and free in Delete() and nowhere else)16:11
RST38hlcuk: The problem is, you do not know how malloc() works16:12
RST38hlcuk: I suggest you try figuring out how Windows malloc() works, for an eyeopening experience16:12
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lcukwheres the code?16:12
RST38hlcuk: Starting with AllocMem() and below16:12
* CosmoHill glares at the 2" gap between his laptop and cable16:12
RST38hlcuk: Why? In Windows of course! NTDLL16:12
th0br0What's so bad about window's malloc?16:12
th0br0lcuk: start up ollydbg or ida and start reading ntdll ;)16:13
RST38hth0br0: Takes enormous, uncontrollable amounts of time16:13
th0br0and linux's doesn't?16:13
lcukdoes c++ object creation directly use malloc then?16:13
RST38hth0br0: Unix malloc is not perfect either of course, but it is quick by comparison16:13
th0br0ok16:13
RST38hlcuk: new does16:13
lcukor does it have its own intermediate slab allocator16:13
RST38hlcuk: Depends on implementation16:14
RST38hlcuk: But there is no "ideal" malloc implementation, slab or no slab16:14
thiago_homein our benchmarks, the linux malloc is much better than mac or windows16:14
lcukas there is no ideal dynamic array method16:14
RST38hthiago: Of course it is16:14
RST38hthiago: But still a pig, when you rely on dynamic allocation everywhere in your code16:14
RST38hlcuk: For modest use, there is16:15
* lcuk has dynamic arrays in some liqbase components - there is still the point where in new you have to do the same thing malloc would do16:15
CosmoHillalmost htere16:15
lcuk"if usedelements+1 > availableelements realloc(arraY)16:16
RST38hlcuk: The limiting factor for slab allocators is knowing the selection of object sizes you will be allocating. For arrays, the limitign factor is knowing the average array size. This one is way easier to predict.16:16
CosmoHillhttp://black-flag.co.uk/files/class-map.png16:16
lcukrealloc causes god to kill kittens16:16
RST38hlcuk: that is why I am not using it.16:16
lcukbecause if your array is 4000 items byval, you have to coy the entire thing16:16
CosmoHillmy friend almost hit a fessent the other day16:16
lcukand then make sure all the pointers your functions might have held are changed over16:17
RST38hlcuk: But my array is never 4000 items and it is rarely byval (or it contains ints)16:17
lcukand any references are updated16:17
RST38hAnd no, I am not giving anyone references directly to array elements16:17
lcukRST38h, so your array is not an object collection16:17
RST38hlcuk: It is an array.16:17
RST38hlcuk: I do not know what "object collection" is.16:17
lcukof course its an array16:18
lcukbut its not a collection of actors in a game16:18
RST38hIt may be16:18
CosmoHillkudos to anyone who understands my class map16:18
ZeikkoI can't even see the picture16:20
CosmoHilloh16:20
lcuki can16:20
ZeikkoFirefox says there are errors in the file :o16:20
ZeikkoNow it started rendering slowly16:21
CosmoHillhttp://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/class-map.png16:21
ZeikkoSo nvm, works now16:21
CosmoHillhmm, it's 2MB16:21
RST38hlooks kinda messy16:22
RST38hmaybe draw class relations and data relations in separate graphs?16:22
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ZeikkoGrah, studying for an UML exam is dead boring :S16:26
* CosmoHill pets Zeikko 16:27
CosmoHilllecturer B goes "lecturer A has taught you about this in UML" and we all go "ermm, no"16:27
ZeikkoThat happens every now and then when teachers don't know what each other are teaching :P16:28
Stskeepsand assuming students actually learnt something16:28
Stskeeps:P16:28
CosmoHillI got an A for UML but i have no idea how16:30
ZeikkoOur UML lecturer gave us an assignment to create multiple UML graphs of a coding project we're doing on another course. Too bad he didn't know we are coding robots in the course nowadays. So here we are making use case graphs of a robot16:31
Stskeepssex bot UML?16:31
CosmoHillthat would explain the hour and hours of out of school studying16:32
lcukand blindness/hairy palms etc16:32
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thiago_homeI have been working with C++ for over 4 years now16:42
thiago_homethe last time I used UML was in the University16:42
lcuklol thiago_home im sure you mean, "we use best design practices every day and i happily construct and modify UML diagrams during my coffee break" :D16:43
ZeikkoWay to go :)16:43
Stskeepsthiago_home: you have people who do UML for you instead? ;)16:43
ZeikkoI use UML at work sometimes though.16:44
thiago_homeStskeeps: no16:45
thiago_homeStskeeps: there is no UML16:45
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CosmoHillthiago_home: I've been working with C++ since febuary16:46
thiago_homeUML is for consultants to show that they are doing some work16:47
ZeikkoWell, i'm a consultant :D16:47
* thiago_home was a consultant too16:49
thiago_homebut I only did powerpoints and shareholder valuation analyses16:49
* CosmoHill goes out shopping16:51
Terje_"French is for chefs to show that they are doing some work"16:51
Terje_UML can be used to convey something, just as any other language that both speaker and listener understand.16:52
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thiago_hometrue16:52
thiago_homebut in my work experience, I've never seen it used to convey any message16:53
Terje_I have seen plenty of messages in UML.16:54
Terje_But I guess that's not something you can argue about. :-)16:54
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VotanStill no MeeGo image for Netbooks with enabled GUI available ?17:57
thiago_homeI haven't seen any announcements17:59
thiago_homehave you?17:59
timeless_mbpI hereby announce that:18:00
timeless_mbpi have nothing to announce!18:00
leinirYay, nonannouncements! :D18:01
thiago_homea paradox!18:01
timeless_mbphey, that was an announcement18:01
leinirThey're almost as good as announcements that you'll be making an announcement ;)18:01
thiago_homedoesn't compute! doesn't compute!18:01
javispedroroger roger18:01
VotanOk, so no announcmment, no img :( I hoped there might be an onofficial dogfood link :>18:04
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timeless_mbps/onofficial/unofficial/18:23
timeless_mbpwell, meego uses rpm18:23
timeless_mbpso you can squat on the repo and watch it for updates18:23
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CosmoHillare serial / console ports RJ11 or RJ54?18:26
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phil2211Hello, does anybody know if meego is looking the same as moblin or is a new concept in plan?19:08
GAN900phil2211, define "MeeGo"19:10
GAN900and "looking"19:11
phil2211Sorry i mean MeeGo for Atom based Netbooks19:11
GAN900Mostly, yes, apparently.19:11
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GAN900The current builds are marked for internal use only, however, so only NDA people can really say.19:12
phil2211I ask because i'm currently in love with moblin19:12
GAN900Open . . . open . . . open. Not--not--not.19:13
phil2211OK, thanks for this answer.19:13
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TSCHAKeeeGAN900: so overall, what was your feeling about the show?19:15
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TSCHAKeeejust a bunch of suits stroking each other?19:15
GAN900TSCHAKeee, mixed19:16
GAN900Very few suits19:16
TSCHAKeeeok19:16
CosmoHillI may not have done any work today19:17
CosmoHillbut I got new shoes :)19:17
TSCHAKeeethe whole vibe is just19:17
GAN900Mostly engineers and community types.19:17
TSCHAKeeeweird19:17
GAN900Yeah19:17
GAN900Lot of talk about open that's backed up by very little substantive.19:17
TSCHAKeeeyup19:18
GAN900Even in areas where it should be easy. Like the website.19:18
TSCHAKeeeyeah19:18
TSCHAKeeedid anyone notice19:18
TSCHAKeeethey made the forum hard to get to?19:18
GAN900Imad said arch discussions are open during his talk on Wednesday19:18
Votanthere's a forum ?19:18
TSCHAKeeecase...and....point....19:18
GAN900The technical panel on Thursday says that's not the case19:19
GAN900and probably wont be until November19:19
TSCHAKeee*facepalm*19:19
GAN900Votan, http://forum.meego.com19:19
TSCHAKeeetry getting to the forum from the main site19:19
TSCHAKeeeit's buried on a page under community, in a link in the middle of the page.19:20
TSCHAKeeethey gave it a forum page, yup19:20
TSCHAKeeewith a useless blurb19:20
TSCHAKeeeand a link to the actual forum19:20
TSCHAKeee*scratch-head*19:20
TSCHAKeeeohhhkay19:20
GAN900TSCHAKeee, I heard a lot of the same things I've been hearing in Maemo for the past 5 years19:21
TSCHAKeeeok so the same things i've been hearing too19:21
TSCHAKeeeok19:21
* TSCHAKeee takes a deep breath19:21
GAN900"It'll be better soon", "Just wait a bit", "That'll change RSN". . . .19:22
TSCHAKeeei have a very distinct feeling that the community people are being stopped by corporate flypaper19:22
GAN900TSCHAKeee, yeah. . . .19:22
TSCHAKeeeput in a permanent holding pattern because quite frankly, they don't know what the fuck to do19:22
TSCHAKeee(They being the execs)19:23
TSCHAKeeebut yet, they continue with this banner19:23
GAN900Very few people seem to know what the answers are19:23
TSCHAKeeelet's ask Ari19:23
GAN900Well, technical details are moving forward19:23
TSCHAKeee:P19:23
GAN900pfft19:23
GAN900Ari19:23
GAN900Living in another dimension.19:23
lcukit would be cool to do something like that19:24
TSCHAKeeeI mean, I even feel a little orphaned19:24
TSCHAKeeewith my N90019:24
thiago_homeAri is not the problem19:24
TSCHAKeeequite possibly, the best portable computing device i've ever used19:24
TSCHAKeeeand it's being..relegated..as a developer brick.19:24
GAN900Lot of enthusiasm going out the airlock19:24
lcukTSCHAKeee, "simply awesome"19:24
thiago_homeTSCHAKeee: what did you want it to be?19:25
thiago_homeit is a developer brick19:25
* TSCHAKeee ignores the spoiled little brats who thought it was a souped up N9719:25
thiago_homeit's got a horrible form-factor19:25
lcukTSCHAKeee, maemo n900 owners map, http://pininthemap.com/maemo add yourself :)19:25
thiago_homeI can't use it in portrait mode19:25
GAN900thiago_home, blah blah blah19:25
GAN900Best mobile device I've used in my life19:25
Votani might get crucified now, but I love my Android Handset :>19:26
thiago_homeI've had better19:26
thiago_homeit's a good device19:26
thiago_homebut I can't use it with one hand only19:26
lcukcould the others run qt?19:26
GAN900thiago_home, just because YOU don't like it, does't justify Nokia dropping support like a ton of bricks.19:26
lcukthiago_home, the n900 is software related19:26
thiago_homeGAN900: it wasn't meant to be supported19:26
GAN900thiago_home, clearly not a use-case requirement for everybody. :)19:26
thiago_homeGAN900: it was made to be like that19:26
lcukmake a decent portrait browser19:26
lcukits not like its impossible19:26
GAN900which is why Nokia is a stupid company19:26
TSCHAKeeethiago_home: well then...somebody forgot to tell the marketing dept19:26
TSCHAKeeewho ran full tilt with it19:27
thiago_homeTSCHAKeee: marketing knows very well19:27
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thiago_homethey did NOT run full tilt with it19:27
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TSCHAKeeeeverywhere BUT the US19:27
* GAN900 is bored with excuses from Nokia and Intel people.19:27
thiago_homeyou'll see what full tilt means when there is a device that is that19:27
GAN900Funny like, I felt turbocharged after BCN.19:27
thiago_homeGAN900: and I'm fed up with your whining.19:27
TSCHAKeeeultimately, I love the device19:27
GAN900I just feel drained after this.19:27
TSCHAKeeeI really do19:27
thiago_homeyou have a point in many places, but you whine too much.19:27
GAN900thiago_home, meh.19:28
GAN900thiago_home, look at it from my perspective.19:28
thiago_homeI do19:28
thiago_homebut you don't look from ours19:28
GAN900Ha19:28
thiago_homebelieve me, I hate the slowness19:28
GAN900You don't know me, then. :)19:28
lcukthiago_home, this device is anything but slow19:28
thiago_homebut this slow is as fast as it can move19:29
thiago_homelcuk: not the device19:29
thiago_homethe companies, the corporate structures19:29
TSCHAKeeehe's talking about the red tape19:29
TSCHAKeeeyeah19:29
lcukdont you remember19:29
lcukthrow it over the wall19:29
lcuk:)19:29
thiago_homeI had an idea about something open source, three weeks ago19:29
thiago_homenow everyone wants to align19:29
thiago_homecome up with a good story19:29
thiago_homethen legal wants to give some input19:29
thiago_homethen we go back to square one19:29
thiago_homeand then we have to run everything past Corporate Comms before announcing19:30
slavikthiago_home: "legal" is the problem :P19:30
thiago_homewhat the open source people had agreed would take a week, will take at least 519:30
slavikhahaha19:30
lcukand whilst all this is going on, in maemo we have developers involved in open projects and interacting with the community19:30
lcukapps which in their fields are advancing qt code19:30
thiago_homeoh, now they want a face-to-face workshop too19:30
lcukrunning well on the n90019:31
thiago_homewhich given the current travel... chaos... may not happen19:31
slavikany idea if Nokia will a phone that is better than n900 with meego ... as in: no crappy 3 row keyboard?19:31
TSCHAKeeenokia will make better devices, yes19:31
Stskeepsi like the keyboard quite a bit though19:31
thiago_homeslavik: there will be MeeGo-based devices19:31
GAN900slavik, may very well have no keyboard at all.19:31
slavikGAN900: even better19:31
thiago_homeI can't say anything about the number of rows in a keyboard19:31
slavikbest keyboard evar: e90 ;)19:31
thiago_homethat's a 5-row keyboard19:32
thiago_homebut the E90 is a brick19:32
slavikyes19:32
thiago_homeespecially if you get it in red colour (brick colour)19:32
slavikthiago_home: I got mine in the dark coffee color19:32
slavikthiago_home: I am 6'2, so for me, e90 is just about right size ;)19:32
slavikSharp's sidekick for tmobile is the best screen/keyboard design IMO19:33
slavikNokia should rip that off ... hint hint wink wink19:33
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thiago_homehardware designed today will see the light of day in 2011/201219:34
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GAN900Five tshirts and an N1 has made my luggage too damn full.19:34
slavikthrow in snapdragon, accelerometers, touchscreen ... DONE!19:34
TSCHAKeeewhy is everybody so big on the snapdragon?19:34
thiago_homeI've received an email already for the device that will replace the device that will replace the N90019:34
slavikTSCHAKeee: it's a 1GHz ARM19:34
TSCHAKeeethe OMAP4 kicks its ass.19:34
slavikTSCHAKeee: haven't read about that one ...19:35
ZeikkoGah, enough of fiddling with C++ for tonight, gotta go to jog.19:35
TSCHAKeeeslavik: dude, do some systems design sometime. not everything is about clock speed.19:35
GAN900thiago_home, just, fyi, half the reason I pushed the community council idea was because people didn't see the issues from Nokia's side and I wanted to help with that. :)19:35
slavikTSCHAKeee: omap4 ... dualcore?19:35
thiago_homeslavik: OMAP4 is dualcore, yes19:36
* ShadowJK hasn't seen any meaningful benchmarks comparing omap3, snapdragon and omap4 either :)19:36
TSCHAKeeeslavik: yes.19:36
slavikI am sold ^^19:36
GAN900slavik, 1GHz doesn't tell the full story.19:36
GAN900slavik, it's slower in other areas than the OMAP3.19:36
thiago_homeGAN900: and I thank you for that19:36
* ShadowJK is guessing the device that replaces the device that replaces N900 might possibly perhaps have omap419:36
TSCHAKeeeand do keep in mind slavik, that vendors often do not wind the clock all the way up19:36
slavikipc is lower?19:36
thiago_homeproblem is battery life / power consumption19:36
GAN900ShadowJK, let's hope. . . .19:36
slavikor longer pipeline?19:37
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GAN900ShadowJK, otherwise Apple is going to leave Nokia in the dust.19:37
GAN900slavik, more cache19:37
slavikahh19:37
GAN900slavik, better/faster parts in the rest of the SoC.19:37
slavikI see19:37
ShadowJKomap4 is definitely more ipc19:38
slavikthis reminds me of the old p4 vs athlon performance war19:38
ShadowJKbut memory bandwidth has even bigger impact I think19:38
TSCHAKeeeslavik: embedded systems design is more about balance19:38
slavikTSCHAKeee: right ... since there is a battery involved19:38
slavikTSCHAKeee: but isn't embedded systems desgined somewhat simpler due to the simplicity of the components? and you're not chasing raw horsepower like desktops/servers19:39
TSCHAKeeeit's something more akin to the old Amiga systems design19:40
TSCHAKeeebalance the load out to coprocessors19:40
slavikTSCHAKeee: I think that's before I was born ...19:40
TSCHAKeeealthough memory speeds are very different now19:40
slavikwow ... hardware aes/sha1 ... sounds fun19:41
slavikTSCHAKeee: I am looking at http://focus.ti.com//general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12843&contentId=53243#chipDiagram19:42
slavikis that gray block in the center all the omap4 soc?19:42
GAN900yes19:43
GAN900Red area is the cores19:43
GAN900outside that, the interfaces.19:43
slavikGAN900: the video processor is part of SoC?19:44
GAN900Yes19:44
GAN900Thus, "SoC". :P19:44
slavikGAN900: I know ... to me, SoC was just a concept/idea before ... nothing I could actually see.19:44
ShadowJKalso 3d gpu, display subsystem is in there19:44
slavikwhat about the controllers for video/input ... those are part of SoC, too, right?19:45
GAN900CPU, GPU, DSP, camera processing, etc.19:45
ShadowJKIVA3 is the video encode/decode accel19:45
GAN900Depends on the SoC19:45
GAN900TWL4030 is involved with some stuff for OMAP319:45
ShadowJKit does voltage regulation mostly19:46
ShadowJKalso has some GPIOs and i2c19:46
ShadowJKslavik, this thing seems to have HDMI on the SoC :P19:47
GAN900weeee19:47
slavikShadowJK: I am already drooling19:47
ShadowJKas well as interface for normal displays19:47
GAN900Hope the plans have changed from the Summit19:47
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GAN900N900+1 using OMAP3 would be unfortunate19:47
slavikthis is why I wish I could stop time ... to play with things like this.19:47
GAN900What with Apple likely to be pushing Cortex A9 stuff for the iPhone 4G19:48
javispedroGAN900: consider battery life...19:48
slavikI wonder if the E90 could handle meego19:48
GAN900javispedro, potentially better with OMAP419:48
GAN900depending on the job, anyway.19:48
javispedroyes yes, I remember that too from OMAP3 =)19:48
ShadowJKslavik, some older SoCs might be a bit funny and droolworthy too, like Samsung s3c64xx, it can do emboss and sepia effects in hardware (for cameras) :-)19:48
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slavikShadowJK: I think my hp ipa has that ...19:49
slavikipaq*19:49
slavikit's a piece of junk though19:49
slavikmostly due to the fact that windows is on it19:49
ShadowJKs3c64xx has roughy the same hardware video decode capabilities as N900 :-)19:49
ShadowJKwhich is kinda amusing considering the samsung soc is a much older design19:50
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ShadowJKstill ages before an omap4 beagleboard though I guess :-(19:50
slavikomap4 at 1GHz ...19:52
TSCHAKeeekeep in mind that cell phone manufacturers will not clock it up that high19:52
slavikwhich is why they suck :(19:52
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slavikI wonder how difficult it is to build my own phone ...19:52
RST38hslavik: Two plastic cups and a piece of string.19:53
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ShadowJKSometimes it's worth it to clock it high... race to idle19:53
RST38hThat easy19:53
slavikRST38h: I should do that ...19:53
ShadowJKsometimes it isn't. like if you have adobe flash installed. it grabs everything it can get anyway19:53
ShadowJK;)19:54
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slavikflash is teh deveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel19:54
javispedroomg o/c my omap4 to 30Ghz19:54
GAN900Power management is too complicated19:54
GAN900We need better batteries so we can all stop hurting our brains thinking about it.19:54
slavikjust pack a bike with a generator19:55
RST38hYea, we need nuclear batteries Popular Mechanics promised us in the 50s19:55
ShadowJKeven with nearly double size battery the N900 can burn it in about 3 hours :)19:55
RST38hPuncture or short that one, and a whole lot of bunny people will descend on you from black helicopters19:55
GAN900RST38h, if we don't nuclear power something, how is Fallout 3 going to come true? :)19:56
lcukRST38h, a vodka power cell would suit me19:56
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lcuktested in russia for centrues19:56
lcukcenturies19:56
RST38hShadowJK: Dunno what you are doing, but 5h is the shortest run time I have got19:56
slaviklcuk: I'd drink the battery ;)19:56
RST38hGAN: Well, North Korea to the rescue...19:56
lcukslavik, you could just buy it a round whilst at the pub19:56
lcukto top it up19:56
slaviksounds good19:57
lcukit would be cool to get working19:57
RST38hGAN: Although I kinda suspect they will serve Japanese anime fans first.19:57
slavikit'll be the most successful phone in russia and estern europe19:57
GAN900RST38h, damn!19:57
RST38hActually, ethanol power cells are no science fiction19:57
lcuki know RST38h i want a real one19:57
lcuknot in lab19:57
lcukfind out just what the problem is19:58
lcukkeep its resv under 100mls19:58
lcukand you can even take it on a plane19:58
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ShadowJKrst38h: Gps on (location-test-gui or something, ovi maps turns it off after loss of focus), cpu at full load with some number crunching at low priority, watch video, screen full brightness. Download the next video on hsdpa.19:58
ShadowJKThis is over 1A draw19:58
RST38hShadowJK: The number crunching part is probably the key19:58
slavikShadowJK: in that case, McGuyver can make it detonate and take out baddies.19:59
RST38hBecause the video alone seems to drain it in 5h or so19:59
ShadowJKnah, cpu isn't that much19:59
slavikit's the wireless19:59
ShadowJKhspa alone is about 50019:59
RST38hah hspa19:59
* RST38h isn't connected 100% of time19:59
slavikmy understanding is that in mobile devices, the screen and the wireless connections are biggest in power consumption19:59
RST38hNo need really20:00
RST38hslavik: not exactly20:00
ShadowJKin "normal" use the screen is probably a large part, where normal is staring at the screen doing nothing20:00
RST38hslavik: You *can* max out the cpu in such a way that it will exceed screen consumption20:00
RST38hslavik: especially in LED-lit screens20:01
RST38hslavik: And by "wireless" we may mean different things in different modes20:01
RST38hslavik: above-mentioned 3G cell service is a hog20:01
ShadowJKRight now, screen at second brightest setting is <=160mA20:01
RST38hBut WiFi, especially with power saving, is pretty harmless20:01
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RST38hShadowJK: We have got LED-lit screen, right?20:02
ShadowJKyes20:02
RST38hSurprisingly, Bluetooth is harmless too20:02
ShadowJKWhen idle, sure20:02
RST38hGPRS does suck power though20:02
RST38hless than 3g but still20:02
wazdGSM FTW20:02
ShadowJKif you push a megabit over bluetooth it'll eat power20:02
RST38hwazd: ironically, yes :)20:02
wazdRST38h: I knew the answer :)20:03
ShadowJKiirc streaming 128kbit music on edge eats about 240mA (and that includes cpu for playback)20:03
wazdand 2G/3G switching too btw20:03
ShadowJKabout double or more on 3g20:03
RST38hShadowJK: urgh20:03
RST38hWe can safely discard that scenario here20:03
wazdRST38h: 1 trip in moscow metro - half of e63's battery's dead20:03
RST38hwazd: What the hell are you doing there?20:04
wazdRST38h: it just switching between 3G and 2G networks constantly20:04
RST38hwazd: Oh shit20:05
ShadowJKhttp://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption <- some data collected by speedevil.. I don't remember if these values are adjusted... if they aren't then multiplying by 1.5x gets closer to truth. you can see relative magnitude anyway20:05
RST38hwazd: something must be wrong.20:05
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wazdRST38h: dunno, but I've turned 3G mode off20:06
wazdRST38h: don't use it anyway20:06
thiago_homethat's one of the reasons why building the UI on OpenGL is a powersaver20:06
RST38hwazd: evil20:07
ShadowJKI get significantly higher power consumption on 3g than SpeedEvil does, but 3g power drain is very operator dependant too :)20:07
RST38hShadowJK: Depends on ground towers20:08
lcukits location based, if you are mobile of course the radio is going to work harder than if you are static20:08
ShadowJKRST38h, also network configuration20:08
ShadowJK3g timers :/20:08
slavikis there such a thing as an omap4 dev board?20:15
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RST38hslavik: Yes.20:16
ShadowJKCan you as a private person buy one?20:17
slavikShadowJK: that's my question :)20:17
RST38hShadowJK: Probably yes, but probably you do not have enough money20:17
RST38hA moment20:18
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user__test from xchat20:19
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GAN900slavik, TI just demoed a kit20:20
GAN900I bet $2k, though.20:20
slavik:(20:20
GAN900slavik, give it 6-8 months.20:20
slavikI guess I wait for a real phone then20:20
javispedrolol smp already20:20
* javispedro waits for the omap6 with 14 unused cores out of 16.20:21
RST38hShadowJK: YOu want OMAP Blaze MDP: http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbugencontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12013&contentId=457820:21
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RST38hjavispedro: You mean you can make use of two cores?20:21
javispedroone will be misused for drm, of course.20:22
RST38hGAN: $2k is on the low side20:22
RST38hGAN: Bet $4k-$8k, depending on how uch stuff is there and how rare these kits are20:22
slavikall I want is an awesome phone with a Perl interpreter :)20:23
RST38hThemanufacturer requests your contact information, meaning the board is still fresh20:23
javispedroaka über expensive.20:23
RST38hslavik: Won't n900 be enough?20:23
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slavikRST38h: it has a crappy keyboard imo20:23
slavike90 = best phone nokia made20:24
* RST38h sighs20:24
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ShadowJKyes well, n900 cpu is like twice as fast as e90's cpu20:30
slaviktrue20:31
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Ashbuild wise e90 was spectacular. just need more power under the hood than s60 could provide.20:40
ShadowJKbuildwise early e90 keyboard keys damaged the display.20:41
Ashyep. forgot about that. its did that to mine.20:45
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slavikShadowJK: I have the "later" version where it didn't :)21:02
slavikI really like the sidekick hardware design21:02
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slavikso, how "open" will meego be to consumers?23:21
CosmoHillthis open |o|23:21
slavik:(23:21
CosmoHillIt thought it would be this \o/ open23:21
slaviknah, I want something \    o    /23:21
slavikthat open23:21
CosmoHillbetter than some companys23:22
slavikbut will there be a possibility of root shell and having console apps, like iwconfig and such run?23:22
CosmoHillsome companies are this open: 8==> suck it23:22
slavikor nmap ...23:22
slavikCosmoHill: like verizon?23:22
CosmoHillmaybe23:22
CosmoHilli know it's an american company23:23
slavikCosmoHill: more importantly, they're a phone company23:23
slavikCosmoHill: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/955486/23:23
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thiago_homeI don't think anything has been announced about forcing ODMs to give root shells23:24
thiago_homeNokia will probably do it for its devices23:25
thiago_homenetbooks probably will have root shells too23:25
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thiago_homethe rest, your guess is as good as mine23:25
CosmoHilllol23:25
slavikthiago_home: I am not interested in netbooks, until they get 12hrs battery life :P23:25
thiago_homethey already do23:25
slavikwhen turned on23:25
thiago_homeyes23:26
slavikerr?23:26
slavikcare to point me to a model?23:26
slavikthat new asus eee tablet looks awesome23:26
thiago_homethe Nokia Booklet 3G is reported to have 12 hours of battery23:26
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slavikonly with AT&T? no possiblity of standalone?23:27
slavikand I want to install Linux on it23:27
thiago_homedon't install Linux on those23:27
slavikhow come?23:27
thiago_homethere are some missing drivers23:27
thiago_homeit won't work23:27
CosmoHillin the UK i think we have a law meaning you can't have more than 25% of a market23:27
slavikfor the 3g modem?23:27
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slavikCosmoHill: british chicks are hot ...23:28
thiago_homeI'm repeating what I heard23:28
slavikor at least sounds hot ...23:28
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CosmoHillif you say so23:28
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slavikthiago_home: I see23:28
slavikCosmoHill: or at least the ones who work at C&W23:28
CosmoHillthe ones that work a C&W all have indian accents :/23:28
slavikCosmoHill: not any that have called my company23:29
CosmoHillat some point i will just go "SEND ME A FUCKING ENGINEER"23:29
slaviksounds like you've been calling BSNL23:29
CosmoHillWe have Demon Internet which is owned by C&W23:29
slavikI see23:30
slavikBSNL is worse ;)23:30
CosmoHilli think what went wrong with our internet was that the cable came unplugged at the exchange23:31
slavikI wonder who done it ...23:31
slavik;)23:31
CosmoHillI've been told to upgrade my router from v3 to v5, that's hardware, not software23:31
CosmoHillI've been told to go online and download the latest updates....23:31
CosmoHillI've been told that my router doesn't support ADSL2+ despite out connection being that for over 3 months without problems23:32
slavikrofl23:33
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