IRC log of #meego for Thursday, 2010-03-25

GeneralAntillesNot directly, perhaps, but if you get indirect value increase through community efforts.00:00
GeneralAntillesLook at Zaurus00:00
lbthttp://meego.mkdir.name/logs/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-21-20.02.html   http://pastie.org/88547200:00
thiago_homeTermana_n810: maybe, maybe not00:00
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GeneralAntillesSharp did everything they could to stifle the community.00:00
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lbtGeneralAntilles: agreed - The despite-Sharp Zaurus00:00
gcobblbt: I haven't read the log yet, but have read the summaries.  One thing...00:01
lbtgcobb: it's very evolutionary... input hugely welcome!00:01
gcobblbt: we need to make it very clear we are talking about application repositories, nothing to do with the base system.  That could cause some confusion00:01
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lbtactually I think there are 2 areas00:01
lbtan 'app store' like place00:02
lbtand00:02
lbta Universe-like set of coherent, released libraries00:02
lbtapp-store = Extras00:02
X-Fadelbt: Agreed.00:02
lbtand each app has a private QA timeline/release schedule00:02
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lbtI'd like the other place to aim to co-release with Meego releases and maybe +1 if we need to00:03
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gcobblbt: so you see a separation between the apps and the libs?  Formal/enforced (when is an app an app?, what about CLI apps? what about daemons? etc.)?00:03
lbtbut probably to also support older Meego releases in case Nokia et al don't release device updates00:03
gcobbor just with different intents and let the developers decide where it belongs?00:04
lbtgcobb: yes.... dunno :)00:04
lbtyes00:04
lbtsome things are clearly standalone00:04
X-Fadegcobb: Maybe a rule if there is more than one dependent on the lib, then ...00:04
lbtothers can be considered 'assistants'00:04
lbtindeed00:04
lbtI also think that 'just ported' will tend to go in the coherent-whole part00:05
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arjanlets put it this way.. an app is not an app is some other package logically depends on it ;)00:06
gcobbNot necessarily disagreeing, but why?  What is the goal?00:06
lbtallows a clearer policy...00:07
lbtie "Can I have a new library" .... "No"00:07
gcobbarjan: no, that doesn't work.  I see many cases of cross-dependencies between apps00:07
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lbtallows us to do pre-release QA too00:07
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arjangcobb: but at that point you're no longer really "just an app", you're creating OS infrastructure00:08
lbtarjan: apps that others depend upon have a greater responsibility00:08
arjanyep00:08
arjanyou get API/ABI issues, etc etc00:08
lbtand may volunteer to be part of a more managed and constrained area00:08
arjanand also then you don't want things to duplicate too much00:08
arjanetc00:08
lbtie the community :Universe or whatever00:09
gcobbarjan: imagine I create an app which synchronises GPE Calendar with Exchange.  That doesn't make GPE Calendar not an app any more00:09
* lbt thought Meego:Albumen00:09
th0br0alrighty, i'm out. bye everyone, ttyl00:09
lbtbye th0br000:09
slaineth0br0: laters00:09
mpathyhi there.. what about SyncML on MeeGo? Anybody knows00:09
lbtth0br0: don't forget your action00:09
arjangcobb: but if there already is centralized calendar management00:09
arjanmpathy: we have that00:10
arjangcobb: then that woudl duplicate core OS functionality...00:10
arjangcobb: which generally is not very desirable, you duplicate calendars.00:10
arjanI don't want my phone or laptop to have two disjoint calendars00:10
lbtarjan: OTOH if you have GPE on other devices...00:10
gcobbarjan: I don't think that is relevant but if you do, take a more abstract example: App B dpends/uses/manipulates the data of App A00:10
lbtI don't want 2 apps thanks :)00:10
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lbtbut indeed, it's an example00:11
X-Fadelbt: no multitasking allowed ;)00:11
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arjangcobb: that gets really tricky around compatibility, non-duplication etc etc.00:11
mpathyarjan, where? I only hear about ActiveSync.. it is included from start?00:11
arjanmpathy: syncevolution or whatever it's called00:11
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gcobbarjan: tricky, yes.  Important, also yes00:11
lbtarjan: indeed - being tricky is why we need policy and design00:11
arjan(which is a bit misnamed and is not evolution specific)00:12
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arjanlbt: which is the point where, if data of App A is important, you pull it into the core00:12
th0br0lbt: writing up a detailed proposal?00:12
lbtth0br0: :)00:12
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lbtarjan: agreed - one of the objectives of the RWG is "gateway to the core"00:12
th0br0lbt: ok :) hope to have that done by sunday.00:13
X-Fadearjan: Then you will end up with either a big core or not much freedom for app developers?00:13
slainebattery about to drain00:13
lbtand moving from :App to :Surrounds would be a step towards that00:13
mpathyarjan, the website says "it supports synchronizing the system address book" which is only a little part of the sync tasks what it should do?00:13
gcobbarjan: sorry, it just isn't as cleanly separated as you are suggesting.  If I don't own App A, but I want to add value to it, I can't rewrite A to create a core service00:13
arjanX-Fade: it's a fine line.00:13
slainelaters00:14
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lbtI think Meego has a hidden/understated agenda/mission around minimalism in this area00:14
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lbtit's not very linuxy as we know linux today... but it has some + points00:14
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X-FadeI wonder if that puts us further away from traditional distros though.00:15
lbtI wonder if we need to be more obvious about "hacker" versions which are more chaotic00:15
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lbtand consumer versions... which only use the core data svcs00:15
lbtX-Fade: it does00:15
th0br0byez00:15
gcobbI don't object to the split, as long as the rules are flexible enough00:15
lbtgcobb: GPE isn't a bad example there00:16
lbtI love it :)00:16
lbtbut I don't see it in Meego core00:16
lbtwhereas Hermes... I do see being more aligned with the core00:17
lbt(as an example)00:17
gcobbIt's both a good and bad example: it has a reasonable split but it is hard to fit into someone else's environment00:17
arjanX-Fade: I don't think meego is "just another" regular distro00:18
arjanI sure hope not00:18
lbtanyhow - I think the point is that the RWG is the place to manage and decide precisely these issues00:18
gcobbWe need to make sure the "Apps" area also includes things like themes00:18
arjanthere's many of those already ;)00:18
X-FadeAnother question is end-users are supposed to run unmodified meego images. Where the core has all needed functionality.00:18
mpathyarjan, what about the stuff from OpenSync - http://opensync.org/ - or this from Funambol -> https://www.forge.funambol.org/download/#phone00:18
arjanX-Fade: I'd love the unmodified image to be good enough for that00:18
arjanmpathy: I didn't think funambol is quite open source00:18
X-Fadearjan: I think that is a bit unrealistic though.00:18
arjannto entirely at least00:18
arjanX-Fade: sure btu that doesn't make it a worthwhile goal :)00:19
gcobbmpathy: opensync is currently still broken00:19
lbtX-Fade: this is an area that I'm waiting to see the code for00:19
X-Fadearjan: Didn't say that ;)00:19
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lbttonights TSG didn't help that at all :(00:19
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lbt(we were hoping it would clarify things)00:19
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mpathyarjan, thats not true.. https://www.forge.funambol.org/learn/licensing.html just be open then its okay00:20
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mpathyarjan, only restriction is the including of the funambol logo00:21
X-FadeAnyway, plenty of things to discuss and find out.00:21
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lbt*nod*00:21
X-FadeTime to end this 14 hour work day.00:21
X-FadeLater.00:22
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thiago_homesame here00:22
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* DocScrutinizer waves and heads out for a beer00:23
* lbt wanders off.... bye00:23
CosmoHillbye lbt00:25
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Termana_n810geek iron01:01
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CosmoHillit was joking but as I've moved the laptop it has got rid of most of the creases01:12
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CosmoHillnight night02:12
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Stskeepsi wonder if i should be worried my mailbox contains no fallout of yesterday's meeting, at all07:52
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ShadowJKStskeeps, well it's growing up into a real distro, what is there to be upset about? :-)08:02
StskeepsShadowJK: at least there's weekly meetings08:03
ShadowJKat the start was it08:03
Stskeepsyeah08:03
Stskeepsthen at cruising altitude the TSG won't be needed often :08:04
StskeepsP08:04
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Stskeepsmorning III08:05
IIImorning...08:05
Stskeeps(and what are you doing up in the morning in my timezone?) ;)08:05
ShadowJKIRC as meeting medium is.. no less timekilling than others..08:05
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* III playing with Mediawiki and Drupal :p08:07
Stskeepsscary08:07
Stskeeps:P08:07
IIIyour telling me... I just killed my system08:07
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* III is no mysql and php expert :p08:08
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Stskeepsmorning dneary10:41
dnearyHi Stskeeps10:42
Stskeepsso any impressions after yesterday's meeting?10:42
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Stskeepsi haven't really processed it yet personally :)10:42
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slainemorning all11:30
zaheermi like the 6 monthly releases11:31
Stskeepsmorning11:31
zaheermmorning11:31
zaheermalthough it is a quick release at beginning from may to september11:32
slaineStskeeps: is there an offical log ?11:32
Stskeepsyes, look at #meego-meeting topic11:32
slaineta11:32
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zaheermhttp://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/11:32
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slainecan catch up on everything I missed.11:33
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jeremiah_Are there minutes from last night's MeeGo TSG meeting?12:25
Stskeepsyes, #meego-meeting has them in topic12:26
Stskeepshttp://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.html12:26
jeremiah_Thanks12:26
jeremiah_Thanks keepsie12:26
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Stskeepswas close to utter chaos but at least things ran through..12:27
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jeremiah_Okay.12:27
jeremiah_Did you think it was worthwhile to be there?12:28
jeremiah_I mean, did you get the info you needed?12:28
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Stskeepsthere will be another one already in a week and before that, all the architecture stuff will be published12:28
jeremiah_So next Wednesday?12:28
Stskeepsi think even though it was a bit hectic, it was important to get it started12:28
Stskeepsright12:28
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jeremiah_Yeah. I am pleased at the turnout from Nokia and Intel12:29
jeremiah_I hope they don't drop off - I think it is important that the community at least have access to these folks12:30
jeremiah_Especially since they are making a lot of decisions without a lot of community imput.12:30
Stskeepsideally TSG will be the last people we deal directly with, with most responsibilities and roles divided out.12:30
jeremiah_s/imput/input12:30
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Stskeepsexcept in conflict situations12:30
jeremiah_Yeah, exactly.12:31
lcukmeego battle arena!12:31
jeremiah_But that they show up in meetings once awhile would be great12:31
Stskeepsthey should, part of governance12:31
jeremiah_At least people like Quim and some others12:31
Stskeepsweekly meetings at first is better than what was promised, every second week12:31
Stskeepsquim sits here every single day12:32
Stskeepsand dawnfoster as well12:32
jeremiah_He was not that active in #maemo12:32
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Stskeepsnew situation now though12:32
jeremiah_But I wonder how long it will last12:32
jeremiah_That is my point12:32
jeremiah_That they have to stay around12:32
Stskeepsand meego isn't currently that hostile an environment as we're not customers12:32
Stskeeps:P12:32
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jeremiah_There are customers out there though. And they're 'hostile' :P12:33
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jeremiah_Stskeeps: What does Mer do now?12:34
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Stskeepsmer^2 is backport for n810 which i'm still working on and for the rest, i encourage contributing to meego12:35
jeremiah_Okay12:36
Stskeepsi see no conflict in goals, even if some seem to think we were 100% open source or nothing :P12:36
jeremiah_qgil: O/12:36
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jeremiah_Well, yeah. There is no conflict. But then MeeGo is not meant to run on the N8*0 right?12:37
Stskeepsdunno, i haven't seen the code yet12:38
Stskeepstechnically if it is armv6+vfp compatible in the base system it could run a non-GL desktop12:39
jeremiah_oh cool12:39
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Stskeepsand if the entire core system is open source, nothing stops anyone from rebuilding it to armv6/armv512:40
Stskeepsqgil: btw, noone posted the TSG meeting minutes to the mailing list yet12:40
jeremiah_But that means backporting ARM kernel changes right?12:40
Stskeepswe already have 2.6.33 on n81012:40
Stskeeps:P12:40
jeremiah_awesome12:41
X-Fadejeremiah_: Omap2 is pretty well supported in these kernels12:41
jeremiah_Cool12:41
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X-FadeQuestion of course if if there is still interest ;)12:42
Stskeepsi still like my n810 for some purposes12:43
jeremiah_Yeah, me too. It is a great little machine.12:43
jeremiah_I am thinking about buying another!12:43
jeremiah_I think I like the N810 format better - I like the slightly bigger screen12:43
Stskeepsi wouldn't mind a pluggable screen on the n90012:44
Stskeepsas in, able to detach and reattach different displays12:44
jeremiah_Yeah - I think that would be huge.12:44
X-FadeNew phones seem to have hdmi ;)12:44
Stskeepsas long as they still support s-video..12:45
Stskeeps:P12:45
Stskeeps  / composite12:45
X-FadeNah, hdmi is a better ;)12:45
X-FadeNo analog crap.12:45
jeremiah_That would be pretty amazing.12:45
Stskeepsprobably, but i don't have a flatscreen tv yet12:45
Stskeeps:P12:45
jeremiah_luddite!12:46
X-FadeStskeeps: Tsss those are less expensive than a phone :)12:46
jeremiah_heh12:46
Stskeepsi was about to buy one when my media center had insane flickering on the screen, we moved it to another electricity plug - as clean as the n900 output12:46
jeremiah_Well MeeGO will probably run on one without the phone hookup anyway12:46
Stskeepsafter day one i kinda want to put meego on my joggler12:47
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* jeremiah_ googles joggler12:47
Stskeepseven though i'll probably be in a world of pain cos of the gma50012:47
jeremiah_Stskeeps: Do you already have a joggler device?12:48
Stskeepsjeremiah_: was sold for 99 pound in US recently, it's a atom 1.6ghz, 512mb ram with ethernet, usb host and 7" capactivie touchscreen12:48
Stskeepserr, in UK12:48
jeremiah_Whoa12:48
Stskeepsand it is hackable to run any linux12:48
jeremiah_Cool12:48
jeremiah_!12:48
* jeremiah_ drools12:48
burchrlol12:48
burchrnow you've given him gadgetgasms12:48
jeremiah_heh12:48
jeremiah_I'm always behind the curve when it comes to gadgets12:49
X-FadeWell that sounds like a good deal.12:49
Stskeepsonly sold in UK though :P12:49
jeremiah_Can't possibly be Nokia quality though12:49
Stskeepsit is quite solid12:49
burchrI'll be willing to ship out jogglers for only a mere 200% markup fee12:49
Stskeepshttp://www.youtube.com/v/m1ZV7aD2Wak12:49
Stskeepsit is AC only, though12:50
Stskeepsno battery12:50
jeremiah_That's weird12:51
* jeremiah_ stops drooling12:51
Stskeepsnot really, considering the usage12:51
X-FadeIt is basically a digital photoframe.12:51
slaineWow, people actually bought Jogglers ?12:51
Stskeepsslaine: yeah, i hack it for fun12:51
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vesa_hmpf, why did noone tell me before the n900 uses the same battery as the 5800!12:52
slaineStskeeps: cool, I've got one of the prototypes here in a box12:52
Stskeepsslaine: the fact you can boot it with a usb stick is quite neat :P12:52
slaineI don't think i ever actually booted it (blush)12:53
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slainewas given it by Intel as a research platform for our software, but it had the GMA500 on there, so I didn't pursue it12:53
Stskeepswhy isn't IEGD good enough btw?12:54
Stskeepswe had those working12:54
slaineXorg 1.7 support required12:56
Stskeepsah12:56
slaineIEGD only goes to 1.612:56
slaineIdeally our packages would just install on any distro release12:56
slainebut we're not there yet12:57
Stskeepsat least with nokia's sgx fbdev that part is update-able12:58
slaineGMA500 has been a major black eye for Intel's OpenSource teams. The elephant in the room12:59
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Stskeepscan imagine13:09
Stskeepsgma500 support for meego wih xserver 1.7 would be a nice thing13:09
Stskeeps:P13:09
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slaineIt sure would13:15
slainethat's unless MeeGo 1.0 ends up with Xorg 1.8 ;)13:16
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qgilso yesterday the TSG told me that I had an official MeeGo role at the Community working group and today my managers tell me that I work at MeeGo devices14:12
qgilchanges...14:12
qgilyet I keep doing the same work more or elss  :)14:12
qgilless14:12
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X-FadeAs long as they don't pay you less :)14:12
zaheermyep, ask for a raise!14:13
burchrqgil: so does Maemo devices still exist? or is it all being renamed14:13
* RST38h moos 14:14
qgilburchr: anybody working yesterday in the Maemo Devices team at Nokia works now in the MeeGo Devices team at Nokia14:15
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* burchr nods14:15
timeless_mbpqgil: hrm, if i wasn't sick or was more awake i'd have at least heard that news14:15
qgilburchr: and that includes the team working on the Maemo 5 PR releases (before anybody panics)  :)14:15
burchroh I'm not panicing, that's exactly what I expected14:16
timeless_mbpqgil: or PE after PR :)14:16
burchrjust clarifying14:16
Stskeepsso when can we expect new swag and tshirts? ;)14:16
timeless_mbpStskeeps: someone would need a logo first ;-)14:16
burchrStskeeps: I expect someone to send a mankini to you instead14:16
qgilStskeeps: now you're asking me as Community WG guy - good question  :)14:16
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qgiltimeless_mbp: we have a MeeGo logo (thank G**)14:17
timeless_mbpwe do?14:17
timeless_mbpgah, get sick, and i miss the world14:17
* burchr pats timeless_mbp14:17
qgiler... are you abusing lynx browser perhaps timeless_mbp ?14:17
Stskeepsthe grey and purple logo on meego.com?14:17
timeless_mbpthat's like calling NOKIA in blue a logo14:18
timeless_mbpit's just ugly14:18
qgildo I need to explain what is a logo and how to recognize it?14:18
Fatallogo != artwork with cuddly animals14:18
Fataltimeless_mbp: it is14:19
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* timeless_mbp wonders if Fatal happens to be near stockholm14:20
qgilin a planetary scale, probably yes14:20
Fatalvarberg, south of gothenburg, small city, so close, but not close if you're swedish14:21
Fataltimeless_mbp: technically I guess it's a "wordmark", but that's a subset of the term logotype14:22
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qgilFatal: we have animals at MeeGo too14:23
timeless_mbpqgil: wild ones, sure14:23
timeless_mbpprobably even bears and bulls14:24
slaineLions and Tigers, oh my14:24
qgiltimeless_mbp: I have seen some humans and a blue fox so far14:24
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* timeless_mbp hasn't seen any blue foxes14:24
Fatal(disclaimer: depending on who you are ofcourse) I doubt those animals falls under the cute and cuddly category though14:24
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qgiltimeless_mbp: waiting still for a re-appearance of the Moblin cat14:24
slaineThe MeeGo fox ate him14:25
qgilthese post-OH guys never surrend  ;)14:25
timeless_mbp?14:25
qgilFatal: I didn't say cuddly, if you notice  :)14:26
qgilthere is also a related "cute" logo  P  but now I'm deviating too much14:26
Fatal:D14:26
qgilwasn't there a blue penguin as well?14:27
slainenedrichards is busy drawing all sorts of new animals while on his honeymoon I'm sure14:28
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jeremiah_I like the little fox guy, I have to admit.14:32
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jeremiah_The penguin is here: http://meego.com/developers14:33
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jeremiah_Does the guy with the eyepatch mean that MeeGo endorses piracy?14:34
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timeless_mbpjeremiah_: he's supposed to be endorsing accessibility14:37
timeless_mbpbut you're right, he's a pirate!14:37
timeless_mbp(actually, i suspect he's got a headsup display with really bad styling, it must be nokia gear!)14:38
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jeremiah_timeless_mbp: :-)15:01
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slainelbt, the RWG proposal seems to have evolved since we had the meeting16:04
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slainewouldn't it have been better to organize a follow up meeting ?16:04
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slaineWhat's there looks reasonable though16:06
lbtslaine: one kinda happened after the TSG last night ... plus I think what I did was take the scope agreed in the meeting and re-presented it16:06
lbtI hope I didn't mis-represent anything...16:06
lbtand that's one reason I sent it to -dev for discussion :)16:07
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slainewas a little put out at first when it looked like so much had changed. But once reading it I can see that yes, you simple fleshed out what was discussed and agreed16:09
lbtgood :)16:10
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lbtafter hearing the TSG meeting I felt it would be worth being more clearly community oriented (ie not "define strategy")16:12
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slainenod16:12
slaineI should probably join the community list too16:13
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lbtI filter all meego and moblin into one folder...16:13
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slaineI've moblin-dev and meego-dev in one MeeGo folder16:14
slainethanks maildrop16:14
lbtseive :)16:14
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* lbt likes cyrus+sieve16:14
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slaineI share a server with a bunch of my friends16:16
slaineone of them is a sysadmin by trade and set it up as they do at his hosting company16:16
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slainewas pretty handy for me :)16:16
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CosmoHilldamn16:22
CosmoHillphp doesn't have jpeg support16:22
CosmoHillnow i need to recompile16:22
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orbarronGM Stskeeps17:11
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Stskeepsmorning orbarron17:12
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TheBootroo[FR]hello17:54
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TheBootroo[FR]Does anyone here know if the MeeGo release which is announced for the end of the month will support telephony on N900 ?17:56
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CosmoHillhi17:58
TheBootroo[FR]hi17:58
StskeepsTheBootroo[FR]: no idea, but the intended phone stack is ofono and ofono isimodem support isn't complete yet17:58
TheBootroo[FR]:)17:58
CosmoHilliirc the meego repo is released on the end of the money17:58
CosmoHillmonth*17:58
StskeepsTheBootroo[FR]: don't expect too much of it, people say17:59
CosmoHillbut meego 1.0 will not be released until may17:59
CosmoHillit should work on the n900 with 3omap17:59
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TheBootroo[FR]the phone stak will be Ofono one ??? and why not Telepathy one, which is supported in N900/Maemo5 and functionnal ?17:59
Stskeepstelepathy isn't a phone stac17:59
Stskeepsk17:59
TheBootroo[FR]yes i know18:00
Stskeepsand nokia's stuff is closed source18:00
TheBootroo[FR]but  it have a telephony stack called 'telepathy-ring'18:00
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StskeepsTheBootroo[FR]: that's a plugin for the nokia stack18:00
TheBootroo[FR]ok18:00
StskeepsTheBootroo[FR]: it isn't meant to be a replacement for maemo5 at end of month18:01
Stskeepsthat'd be unrealistic :)18:01
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TheBootroo[FR]i'm developper so i know that ;-)18:01
ShadowJKend of month is "it boots", then it's time to figure out how to make it display stuff on screen ;)18:01
TheBootroo[FR]do we have an idea of the appearance of MeeGo's  Handheld UX ?18:01
lcukwill there be an x86 install?18:02
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:02
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TheBootroo[FR]normally18:02
* ShadowJK 'd be surprised if there was an installer ;D18:02
lcukand i dont mean an image for an emulator18:02
TheBootroo[FR]both ARM OMAP 3 and X86 Atom ones ;-)18:02
lcuki mean to sit on a laptop nearby18:02
ShadowJKwell put hte image on a disc..18:02
CosmoHillTheBootroo[FR]: i think they are using the moblin UX for meego 1.018:02
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lcukbut they wont run the same code initially18:02
CosmoHillin meego 1.1 they will work on the UX18:02
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TheBootroo[FR]but Moblin UX is actually using GTK+ and clutter no ?   and meego will use Qt4 ?18:03
CosmoHillthis is correct18:03
lcukif the meego stack is qt18:03
CosmoHillmeego 1.0 is about the core of the distro, i.e. everything under the UX18:03
lcukthen can i install meego ontop of windows18:03
TheBootroo[FR]so nokia's work in ex-Harmattan could be MeeGo Handheld UX no ?18:04
TheBootroo[FR]@lcuk:  lol18:04
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StskeepsTheBootroo[FR]: no architecture info out yet, so18:04
Stskeepswait a week or so18:04
lcukTheBootroo[FR], i am 100% serious18:04
Stskeeps:P18:04
TheBootroo[FR]@lcuk:  windows haven't all necessaries  librairies18:04
lcukit has qt18:04
lcukand that is meego isnt it?18:05
TheBootroo[FR]meego's kernel ? dbus ? telepathy ? rpm ?  nothing like that in Win****18:05
lcukall the apps are qt apps18:05
lcukqt is cross platform18:05
TheBootroo[FR]yes but some things are to be Qt/X11 specific18:06
lcukwhat, so qt is not cross platofmr compatible?18:06
TheBootroo[FR]particulary desktop UI18:06
TheBootroo[FR]not all18:06
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TheBootroo[FR]for example low-level windows management differs in Linux/X11 , OS X and Win3218:07
lcukso if i have currently a qt app18:07
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lcukit will or wont work in meego18:07
lcukbased on the direction of the wind?18:07
TheBootroo[FR]normally it will18:07
TheBootroo[FR]but MeeGo UX itself will surely not18:07
lcukwindow management isnt important to apps written on qt tho18:07
TheBootroo[FR]on windows18:07
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:07
lcukbecause those apps use qt interfaces18:08
TheBootroo[FR]but what i mean18:08
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TheBootroo[FR]is that Meego's UX will NOT run on windows18:08
lcukbecause the UX is not qt?18:08
TheBootroo[FR]yes it is but it uses X11 specific stuff too18:08
w00t_lcuk: he means things like the compositor and such18:08
w00t_methinks18:09
lcukmeeto18:09
lcukbut im just trying to see at what level this sillyness extends18:09
TheBootroo[FR]not even compositing18:09
TheBootroo[FR]which could be handled by Qt18:09
TheBootroo[FR]no18:09
lcukqt sits ontop of x11, or windows whatever its called, or mac winmanager already18:10
lcukwhy would it suddenly stop doing so18:10
TheBootroo[FR]i'm talking  about window showing and management like taskbar, switcher....18:10
lcukthose arent qt components too?18:10
TheBootroo[FR]yes but they are differents on three OSes18:10
w00t_there isn't any current cross platform code for that, no18:10
Anss|qt lighthouse?18:10
lcukyes - so someone has already done all that work18:10
damien_lit's not about being Qt or not... but about stuff *really* specific to the plaform like an X compositor18:11
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lcukok, but if i have a qwidget18:11
lcukinside my app18:11
lcukthat currently runs anywhere18:11
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:11
TheBootroo[FR]hopefully18:11
lcukfor different values of anywhere i know18:11
TheBootroo[FR]it's cross plateform without any problem18:11
lcukarent the apps themselves just qt apps18:11
lcukwithout the special x11 tricks you discuss for 1 or 2 window managery things18:12
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:12
TheBootroo[FR]but not the Desktop18:12
lcukso - most of meego apps will just work18:12
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lcukon windows18:12
TheBootroo[FR]the windows-manager/desktop/launcher is just specific18:12
lcuki dont need that one18:12
lcuki mean the apps18:12
lcukthat make up meego18:12
TheBootroo[FR]but  the rest could be portable18:12
lcukcool :)18:13
damien_lthe shell for MeeGo 1.0 Netbook is not done with Qt, the 3rd party developer API is Qt (but I guess every developer is free to choose to depend on anything that is in the distro)18:13
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TheBootroo[FR]@damien_l: even netbook UX must be rewritten in Qt in future, at least I hope18:14
damien_lTheBootroo[FR]: why *must*?18:15
TheBootroo[FR]cause qt is far much powerful than gtk+/clutter actually used18:15
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CosmoHillgod18:15
CosmoHillwhy do people use dream weaver18:15
damien_lTheBootroo[FR]: is it?18:15
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:15
TheBootroo[FR]sooo far18:15
TheBootroo[FR];-)18:15
TheBootroo[FR]i've used Gtk+ before knowing Qt and there is no possible comparaison18:16
robstaTheBootroo[FR]: what qt do you mean? qwidget, dui, qml, graphics-view or orbit?18:16
TheBootroo[FR]all of Qt18:16
TheBootroo[FR]is one of powers of Qt : everything available in base18:17
w00t_I suspect this discussion is about to get religious18:17
damien_loh really?18:17
TheBootroo[FR]for Gtk you must add Cairo for vector, pango for text, clutter for animations ....18:17
bpeeljust because they call loads of separate parts by one name doesn't make it any more useful18:17
* timeless_mbp notes that in theory, DUI was supposed to run on OS X and Windows too18:18
bpeelyou could just say "Gnome has everything in base"18:18
* leinir suspects w00t_ may be right ;)18:18
* timeless_mbp saw a video of it, so it must be true!18:18
TheBootroo[FR]so all is perfectlly integrated18:18
robstaTheBootroo[FR]: so why does Nokia not have anything to show for QT, after acquiring it 2 years ago?18:18
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timeless_mbpw00t_: how dare you suspect the spanish inquisition!18:19
TheBootroo[FR]don't worry about religion or inquisition lool18:19
timeless_mbprobsta: they changed the license, surely that's a lot to show for two years!18:19
TheBootroo[FR]:D18:19
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:19
timeless_mbpit took symbian two years to change their license! :)18:19
TheBootroo[FR]there are : QML, Qt Creator, Qt Mobility, Qt Animation, Qt State MAchine ....18:20
timeless_mbp(and that was from closed to "i can't figure it out, but it must be open")18:20
timeless_mbpTheBootroo[FR]: i don't think Nokia created any of those18:20
trip0there's a lot that has happened in Qt the past 2 years18:20
robstaTheBootroo[FR]: and there is meego 1.0 which is the 3rd installation of a clutter base user interface18:20
robstameego 1.0 for netbook i mean18:20
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trip0timeless, they came into existence under nokia's ownership18:20
timeless_mbptrip0: were they not projects beforehand?18:21
trip0no18:21
leinirtimeless_mbp: Bah, you wouldn't want to point out the S60 support, or even Harmattan... ;)18:21
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trip0qt animation was, but it was really limited18:21
robstaTheBootroo[FR]: so what do you prefer? good in theory or out there, tried and tested18:21
TheBootroo[FR]not all18:21
timeless_mbphrm, Qt Creator is a replacement for Qt Designer?18:21
* timeless_mbp wonders what was wrong w/ designer18:21
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trip0designer isn't a full IDE18:22
trip0creator is18:22
leinirtimeless_mbp: Creator's an IDE, Designer's only for designing UI files :)18:22
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:22
timeless_mbp(other than the fact that i crashed it when i looked at it the wrong way)18:22
TheBootroo[FR]and i love it18:22
TheBootroo[FR]i use it everyday and it's a real pleasure at each update ;-)18:22
timeless_mbpand it sucks every other day? :)18:22
TheBootroo[FR]non18:22
timeless_mbpthat's what your sentence implied :)18:23
TheBootroo[FR]lol18:23
TheBootroo[FR]excuse me i'm french and my english is imperfect ...18:23
timeless_mbplearn a lesson from your mistakes, that's all i ask :)18:23
damien_lif only18:23
trip0only if18:24
timeless_mbplaughing is fine, but learning is important18:24
TheBootroo[FR]yes i know mum18:24
trip0i didn't interpret Bootroo's sentence that way18:24
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trip0i got that he uses it daily and when he updates, it's a pleasure18:24
TheBootroo[FR]yes18:25
timeless_mbpyeah, and the rest of the time, it isn't!18:25
TheBootroo[FR]that's what i wanted to say18:25
trip0timeless, no such implication18:25
timeless_mbpbut a valid conclusion18:25
trip0from my interpretation18:25
TheBootroo[FR]no : it's good all day but yet more at updates18:25
timeless_mbpTheBootroo[FR]: it's better to say explicitly that you enjoy using it every day18:26
trip0if one doesn't specify something as "good" explicitly, that doesn't conversly mean the opposite18:26
timeless_mbpyou can indicate in a distinct sentence that you look forward to updates18:26
aldendid this channels user count suddenly shoot up after yesterdays meeting?18:26
Stskeepsnop, about same18:26
timeless_mbpalden: hrm, are you the guy who did the election writeup?18:26
aldentimeless: no?18:26
w00t_timeless_mbp: designer lives on inside creator, I believe the UI design component *is* just designer so18:26
* timeless_mbp tries to pin a nick to a blog and fails miserably18:26
trip0i look forward to updates, but that doesn't mean i'm not happy with the current version18:26
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w00t_timeless_mbp: fwiw, it's stabilised a lot from a few years ago, if you used it then18:27
timeless_mbpw00t_: i filed a bug on designer while working at nokia18:27
timeless_mbpi've been here 4 years18:27
TheBootroo[FR]trip0:   +10000018:27
trip0i guess it depends on what you perceive updates to be18:27
timeless_mbpso it had to be w/in that period18:27
aldentimeless_mbp: election writeup?18:27
* w00t_ has been running the same instance of creator master for over a week now18:27
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timeless_mbpalden: if it wasn't you, it isn't relevant18:28
timeless_mbpw00t_: sadly i've found qt bug handling to be incredibly useless18:28
TheBootroo[FR]trip0 : i'm using 1.3.81 revisions so in fact 2.0 beta version and it's all good !  (Mc Cain inside lol)18:28
timeless_mbpno useful feedback about bug reports18:28
timeless_mbpand they seem to keep changing bug databases and urls18:28
trip0haha18:28
w00t_timeless_mbp: iirc they never had an external db until the current one, so I don't imagine that will change18:29
timeless_mbptrip0: seriously, i filed a bug report18:29
timeless_mbpi want to know its status18:29
timeless_mbpis that so unreasonable?18:29
w00t_from what I know from talking to them, they previously worked on some horrible email system18:29
w00t_timeless_mbp: there is also #qt-labs, where you can hassle people directly now, which didn't exist until (relatively) recently18:29
timeless_mbpw00t_: i don't really have time to go hassling people18:30
timeless_mbpand i don't like to be seen as hassling people18:30
timeless_mbpbesides, i could just cheat18:30
* timeless_mbp hates cheating18:30
* TheBootroo[FR] too18:30
timeless_mbpif i'm going to hassle someone, i'll call them :)18:30
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w00t_timeless_mbp: yet you have time to talk about not having time to hassle people? *grin*18:30
timeless_mbphttp://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa18:30
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timeless_mbpw00t_: sure, i'm @home sick18:30
timeless_mbpi have another half day18:31
w00t_I jnest18:31
w00t_s/n//18:31
timeless_mbphttp://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa18:31
timeless_mbpis one of i don't know how many bug trackers qt has18:31
timeless_mbp(it's the wrong one)18:31
w00t_urm, why?18:31
timeless_mbpwhy which?18:31
w00t_as far as I'm aware that's the right one18:31
timeless_mbpbecause my bug is from the old one18:31
TheBootroo[FR]yes it its18:31
w00t_right18:31
timeless_mbpand is a report on qt designer18:31
timeless_mbpwhich isn't something i can find there18:32
timeless_mbpanyway, i filed a bug about designer, you claim it's the right database18:32
w00t_they switched trackers a year or two ago from some stupid internal system which operated via mail, as I explained18:32
timeless_mbpfind it! :)18:32
w00t_the old one was never public18:32
w00t_so I couldn't, even if I wanted to18:32
w00t_I'd still chalk this up to progress that has been made really, they now *have* a tracker that people can see what is going on with, as opposed to .. what was it, reports@trolltech.com? or some other stupid email alias18:33
timeless_mbpBugs should be reported to mailto:qt-bugs@trolltech.com. But please read (the very short) http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/bughowto.html page first.18:34
w00t_right18:34
timeless_mbpwas the really old version18:34
timeless_mbpbut i filed it w/ a gui18:34
timeless_mbpand i'm pretty sure it wasn't the newer jira18:34
w00t_it wasn't18:34
w00t_it was just a pretty front end that sent a mail to that address, iirc18:34
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CosmoHillyay18:39
CosmoHillyou can now upload images to the website via php and it will resize them for you :D18:39
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timeless_mbpw00t_: http://qt.nokia.com/developer/task-tracker/index_html?id=213481&method=entry18:42
w00t_intriguing18:43
timeless_mbpso yes, the database still exists18:43
timeless_mbpbut finding it is... well18:43
timeless_mbpnote that the dates are misleading18:44
timeless_mbpmy mailbox shows a message from them asking for more info on the 23rd18:44
timeless_mbpso it isn't like they had 1 day turnaround for a trivial bug18:44
w00t_yeah, I do remember that system, and it sucked18:45
w00t_they're still not perfect now with jira (some stuff takes way too long to be triaged) but I suspect that is a manpower problem18:45
* timeless_mbp shrugs18:45
timeless_mbpi'm uncertain that jira is actually better18:46
timeless_mbpi think i've had more time to grow to hate jira :)18:46
timeless_mbptask tracker is useless, but at least it's plain and simple, not ugly and convoluted :)18:46
w00t_I'm not so much referring to the tool as the change in process18:47
timeless_mbpi'm not sure there is much change in process18:47
w00t_with the older trackers, you rarely got feedback on what was going on inside the belly of the beast18:47
w00t_nowdays, there's more of a visible paper trail18:47
timeless_mbpwell, w/ task tracker they sent me an email they didn't need to asking for information they didn't need18:47
timeless_mbpi replied w/ a flippant reply18:48
timeless_mbpthey replied saying thanks for my help18:48
timeless_mbpand essentially the next day they had fixed it18:48
timeless_mbp_somewhere_, but i never got a notice about that!18:48
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timeless_mbpfwiw, i crashed Qt Designer during a Qt training course :)18:51
timeless_mbpit wasn't exactly the most impressive of introductions18:51
timeless_mbp"oh, here's a tool that'll eat my work"18:51
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timeless_mbpnote: other people may view my comments as being reasonable instead of flippant, and i appreciate such judgments :)18:53
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trip0timeless_mbp, i crashed DOS 2.3 a lot too18:56
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trip0...while we are talking about old software18:57
timeless_mbpi don't recall crashing cpm much, if ever18:58
timeless_mbpwe didn't move from cpm to dos until 5 iirc18:58
timeless_mbpi think i played w/ 3.3 and 4 but18:58
trip0:P18:58
timeless_mbptrip0: if you aren't at least 30, you're not going to win =b18:58
trip0nope18:59
trip0and nope ;)18:59
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timeless_mbphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS#Versions19:00
timeless_mbpyou sure you didn't mean 3.3?19:00
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trip0actually, i think the only dos i ever used was 519:03
trip0but never let the truth get in the way of a good story19:03
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timeless_mbptrip0: sorry, i've used quite a few platforms, so i'm the wrong person to try that w/ i'll take you seriously, win anyway and then determine you were lying :)19:12
trip0well, the point is still valid.  you can complain about deprecated software all day... it doesn't do much good19:13
trip0your points may be valid, but the software is still deprecated19:13
timeless_mbpif designer is integrated into creator, then it isn't deprecated19:13
timeless_mbpdos is deprecated, it isn't part of nt19:13
trip0there is a designer in creator19:14
w00t_timeless_mbp: that's not really an accurate metric, though19:14
trip0but is it really "the designer" ?19:14
w00t_as I mentioned earlier, I've been running the same instance of creator for a week now19:14
w00t_trip0: pretty sure that yes, it is the same19:14
w00t_trip0: designer standalone still exists too19:14
timeless_mbpwell, since they didn't indicate how they fixed it19:14
timeless_mbpi have no idea19:14
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timeless_mbpi don't know if they fixed qt to not assert, of if they fixed designer to sanity check input19:14
timeless_mbpit's quite possible the bug or a similar one exists19:14
timeless_mbpgiven my experience w/ maemo =nokia code, i expect them to fix it incorrectly19:15
timeless_mbpif it were trolltech, i'd expect them to fix it correctly19:15
w00t_timeless_mbp: if you remember what you did, I'd be happy to test it :p19:15
timeless_mbpif it were truly open source, i'd expect them to tell me how they fixed it19:15
timeless_mbpw00t_: the bug report has the file :)19:15
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w00t_ah right19:16
w00t_I will look later19:16
w00t_I need my Creator to not crash right now :-)19:16
timeless_mbpbut roughly speaking, i created a fairly basic designer thingy, saved the thing, closed it, opened the file in a text editor, and either moved an xml thing or removed a container element19:16
CosmoHilli wonder if meego will run in virtual box19:16
timeless_mbpnote that i've been using xml for years19:16
CosmoHill</thinkingoutload>19:16
timeless_mbpCosmoHill: moblin2.1 does19:16
timeless_mbpand mer does19:17
timeless_mbpand i've had a mer which had most of diablo too19:17
timeless_mbp(advantage of working for nokia on maemo)19:17
timeless_mbpi presume i could have a mer w/ most of fremantle if i bothered, but i'm too lazy19:17
* timeless_mbp goes back to w719:17
CosmoHillI'd have moblin on my laptop but nvidia breaks clutter19:18
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timeless_mbpmoblin in theory wants some kind of acceleration which vbox doesn't have iiuc19:20
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timeless_mbpbut that should be solvable19:22
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drizztbsdCosmoHill: you should make a custom image with binary nvidia drivers19:36
CosmoHillI've rebuild xorg and install nvidia drivers19:36
CosmoHillmobin became unusable19:36
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drizztbsdhave you added Driver "nvidia" in xorg.conf?19:42
CosmoHillyes19:43
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CosmoHilleverything was much smoother but the mobin panel failed to start so I couldn't access anything19:43
drizztbsdchanged the libGL.so.1?19:43
CosmoHillno19:44
CosmoHillinstalled nvidia driver and rebuild xorg19:44
drizztbsdthat is the problem19:44
drizztbsdtry to do glxinfo19:44
CosmoHilli don't have moblin installed atm19:46
drizztbsdok19:46
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* CosmoHill cleans his room and tries to degeek it19:47
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thiagodegeek?19:48
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thiagohow does that work?19:48
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CosmoHillthink that reduce your sex appeal?19:49
CosmoHilllike instead of having 3 desktops in your room19:49
CosmoHillonly have one19:49
CosmoHillor at least hide 2 of them19:49
thiagoyou could throw away old pizza boxes19:50
CosmoHillbut I like my HP PA-RISC computer19:50
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thiagowant another one? I think we've outlived the usefulness of our PA-RISC machine19:53
thiagoactually, we have two19:53
CosmoHillmaybe19:54
CosmoHillwhat are they?19:54
thiagoHP-UX piraya B.11.11 U 9000/785 2013624964 unlimited-user license19:54
* drizztbsd hides him Ultra2 machine19:55
drizztbsds/him/his/19:55
CosmoHillI put 9000/785 into yahoo and ended up with a gun :/19:55
thiagoif I knew how to get more info out of HP-UX, I'd give you19:55
CosmoHillthe 'exotic' machines i have are a HP PA-RISC 700/80, Sun Sunblade 100 UltraSPARC IIe and various powermacs19:56
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CosmoHillthiago: what's the machine's model number?19:56
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thiagohow do I find out?19:57
CosmoHilllook at the machine?19:57
thiagothat would imply finding it in the server room19:57
CosmoHillah19:57
CosmoHillany idea on specs?19:57
CosmoHillor year19:58
thiagoI found out that the disk is 70 GB19:58
CosmoHillooo19:58
CosmoHillthat's good19:58
CosmoHillmine is 1GB19:58
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CosmoHillthiago: ram / processors ?19:59
thiagono "free"20:00
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CosmoHill"top" ?20:03
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thiagoMemory: 48612K (32864K) real, 300528K (133184K) virtual, 362904K free  Page# 1/720:04
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thiago32 MB doesn't sound right20:04
thiagobut 384 does20:04
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CosmoHillhere's my specs: 1GB hard drive, 64MB RAM, 80Mhz processor20:05
styleWill meego come to n900?20:05
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CosmoHillyes20:05
stylecool20:05
CosmoHillif the n900 has 3omp20:05
CosmoHillor something20:05
thiagoI'm sure this processor is a bit better20:05
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thiagoit can compile Qt in under a day20:05
thiagoCosmoHill: 3omp?20:05
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CosmoHillhold on20:06
thiagodid you mean OMAP3?20:06
CosmoHill   1330 Mar 24 20:28:34 <ImadSousou>    Atom systems and N900 w/OMAP320:06
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thiagoN900 is an OMAP3 device20:07
CosmoHillI just heard thunder so if I go offline you know why20:07
thiagoOMAP3430 to be precise20:07
thiagomore info on wikipedia20:08
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trip0oh, so are we saying there will be a productized version of meego for the n900 now?20:08
trip0or is that still vague?20:08
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bfreetrip0: still vague.   the "Day 1" code will run on the N900 is all that has been said afaik20:10
CosmoHillthiago: I'm on page about hp9000, they were made between 1980 and 200820:11
CosmoHillhere's mine: http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_712.html20:11
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GAN900Anybody got the meeting minutes handy?20:13
CosmoHillminutes?20:14
Stskeepshttp://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.html20:14
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obcecadoi wonder whether meego will have a ipv6-ready kernel shipped in or not21:20
CosmoHillthiago_home: http://www.spec.org/cpu95/results/res98q4/cpu95-981204-03211.html :) i think that's it21:20
CosmoHilli don't see why it shouldn't21:20
thiago_homeobcecado: I actually think it should21:20
thiago_homedevices for 2011 should all be IPv6-ready21:20
obcecadothe problem is not device-related21:20
obcecadotheres already something out for freemantle, but the package is bugged21:21
thiago_homeactually, it is21:21
thiago_homeoperators are requiring IPv621:21
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thiago_home(or are going to)21:21
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* ShadowJK wonders if meego will have a kernel21:32
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thiago_homeShadowJK: nope, we'll run directly on BIOS :-P21:35
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Stskeepswe'll run in your brain, on your idle cpu cycles21:36
Stskeeps:P21:36
ShadowJKI mean from a fragmentation point of view, whether you can rely on kernel features being present21:37
Stskeepsi hope it is possible to have a shared set of kernel headers :P21:37
thiago_homekernel headers aren't used by userspace21:38
ShadowJKor if MeeGo doesn't care/define that as long as base system runs21:38
thiago_homeuserspace uses headers from glibc, which has a copy of the kernel headers, cleaned up21:38
thiago_homeas for kernel features, it usually depends on the device21:39
thiago_homeI don't see why some should have, for example, xfs support21:39
thiago_homesure, some people could have xfs USB sticks or microSD21:39
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ShadowJKhow about netfilter and conntrack :)21:40
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Stskeepsevening DawnFoster21:59
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DawnFosterevening Stskeeps. Thanks again for your help getting the meego-meeting channel set up for the moderated TSG meeting yesterday.22:03
Stskeepsnp - all things considered it could have gone a lot worse :)22:03
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CosmoHillhey DawnFoster and Stskeeps22:04
DawnFosteryeah, I thought it went pretty well for the first one. Now, we just need to do some fine tuning.22:04
DawnFosterhey CosmoHill22:04
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* thiago_home has collected all questions from yesterday and categorised them22:05
CosmoHill:)22:05
thiago_homemaybe we can get some more answered for the next meeting?22:05
Stskeepsmaybe a weekly blog, "ask the TSG"22:05
CosmoHillare they going on the wiki to be answered at a later date?22:05
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DawnFosterwe definitely ran out of time on the questions.22:15
DawnFosterI expect that we'll get to some of them next week with explicit agenda items.22:15
timeless_mbpthiago: "was it worth it"?22:16
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timeless_mbpDawnFoster: if the members of TSG didn't see that coming....22:16
DawnFosterThiago - can we get those questions posted on the wiki somewhere? I'd like to make sure some of the bigger topics are covered explicitly on the agenda for next week.22:17
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DawnFostertimeless: we expected that it would be a bit chaotic with more questions than we could possibly answer.22:17
DawnFosterpart of the reason that we went for an extra hour was because Imad / Valtteri wanted to answer as many questions as we could.22:18
DawnFosterI think we did pretty well for a first meeting :)22:18
timeless_mbpall things considered, it wasn't bad22:19
timeless_mbpbut i'd kinda suggest that they consider using a spell checker22:19
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timeless_mbpthey really don't come off professionally22:19
timeless_mbpand for the time block you're reserving, you aren't in a rush22:19
timeless_mbpone fewer question answered from a bucketful of unanswered questions won't be noticed :)22:20
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CosmoHillson of a bitch22:24
CosmoHillI press play on a flash video and firefox died22:24
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ShadowJKCosmoHill, didn't you hear steve jobs proclaimed flash the source of all crashes22:25
DawnFosterI'll see what I can do on the spelling :)22:25
RST38hFireFox and N900 ?22:26
CosmoHillI'm on a mac22:26
RST38hIs Mac still supported by Mozilla? =)22:26
CosmoHillShadowJK: how would he know? he doesn't allow flash on his shiny things22:26
ShadowJKon the desktop and laptop machines he does22:27
CosmoHilljust looking at Freesat HD, apparently this box can play bbc iplayer better than my desktop and powerbook22:28
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