IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2010-02-24

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sivang	slaine_: so how do I get acces for docs publishing at the CMS ?	00:01
slaine_	sivang: I've no idea what you're talking about, sorry. Got a url ?	00:02
slaine_	ali1234: Isn't that the point of the obs system though	00:02
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sivang	slaine_: what needs to happen so I can publish my PySide tutorial there as well when it is done?	00:03
slaine_	it'll pull in the rpms needed for each package	00:03
ali1234	slaine_: i guess so, yeah	00:03
slaine_	sivang: to what site	00:03
ali1234	slaine_: it isn't about pulling in rpms though, mock does that. it is about building them in the right order so you link against the new ones instead of the old ones	00:04
ali1234	but i guess OBS does that too	00:04
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slaine_	but linking against the default packages is still ok at the build stage	00:04
ali1234	is it?	00:04
ali1234	what if something gets static linked?	00:05
ali1234	it might be ok, but there's no way to tell without testing every binary for SSSE3 instructions	00:06
slaine_	That would be a problem then alright. You could rebuild the packages listed in the obs config, the ones that it uses for the chroot	00:07
slaine_	starting with glibc and then gcc	00:07
ali1234	yeah	00:07
ali1234	"manual bootstrapping"	00:07
ali1234	alternatively, bootstrap it against a distro that does not use SSSE3, eg F12 :)	00:08
ali1234	that is, build the chroot packages against F12, then build all packages again against that, in dependency order	00:08
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sivang	slaine_: here -> http://meego.com/developers/	00:10
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slaine_	baby duty, brb	00:14
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* CosmoHill sniffs		00:14
CosmoHill	poor slaine	00:14
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wiretapped	lol @ http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process "The kernel is the heart of Linux" O RLY?	00:25
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Is qgil arguing for or against power-user/enthusiasts being close to developers here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=543209#post543209? (Given comments about device-specific app stores as well...)	00:25
CosmoHill	lol	00:26
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Hydroxide	wiretapped: well, in the sense that the fingers, thumb, palm, and back of hand together are the heart of the hand	00:26
Hydroxide	:)	00:26
CosmoHill	Jaffa: hmm	00:26
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GAN900	Jaffa, against.	00:27
GAN900	Jaffa, especially based on his ml comments.	00:27
CosmoHill	why should they be closed?	00:27
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* lbt wonders if meego has lighttpd in the repos...		00:28
sivang	wiretapped: hehe	00:30
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* sivang makes thai food		00:30
ali1234	Jaffa: how do you define power-user/enthusiast? i would consider myself one, but i would not go anywhere near such forums as listed on that post you link	00:30
ali1234	Jaffa: and if i want to talk to android develoeprs i know where to find them	00:30
ali1234	Jaffa: essentially, the people on those forums are not power users, they are just regular users	00:31
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Jaffa	ali1234: "Power-user/enthusiasts", IMHO, are the majority of the *.maemo.org users to date. Anyone who is committed enough to post to a forum more than a few times for longer than a couple of weeks is a power-user/enthusiast.	00:38
CosmoHill	i think i would class myself as a power user	00:38
CosmoHill	i mean my server is running a distro built from source packages	00:38
CosmoHill	(and it's not gentoo)	00:38
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ali1234	Jaffa: that definition would seem to include several prolific trolls... and not me, since i don't ever go on tmo	00:38
Jaffa	ali1234: talk.maemo.org is a hive of scum and villainy - but for every clueless n00b, I've got someone else willing to deal with them on my behalf and someone else to provide valuable feedback on applications at various levels.	00:39
ali1234	i posted there like twice	00:39
Jaffa	ali1234: Obviously, a power-user/enthusiast is more than someone who posts in a forum, but you asked for a definition in the context of a forum.	00:39
CosmoHill	we have some trolls on LFS	00:39
CosmoHill	and some people where you need to sit down and talk them through stuff	00:39
Jaffa	ali1234: Someone who hangs out on an IRC channel and is engaged in meta-discussions counts too ;-)	00:39
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Jaffa	Mrs Jaffa is a regular user - she doesn't go to any website about her N810 - she just uses the thing. She installs a few pieces of software from Extras and then users them. No engagement in the community at all. That's a regular user.	00:41
ali1234	so, to put the question another way, do you think developers should be expected to read the forums?	00:41
ali1234	i mean, regards "closeness"	00:42
Jaffa	Which developers?	00:43
Jaffa	And I'd object to the word "expected".	00:43
ali1234	"for or against power-user/enthusiasts being close to developers" <- those developers	00:43
lcuk	jaffa :) well defined views as usual, i still cringe everytime i read fora, but thats just for getting used to :D	00:44
Jaffa	I'd expect anyone who is passionate about a platform to try and be aware of what's going on there, whether it's directly posting/reading or through some kind of aggregation service	00:44
Jaffa	lcuk: Sorry, I find "forums" so... unclassical ;-)	00:44
ali1234	aggregation service ftw	00:44
Jaffa	ali1234: Indeed ;-)	00:44
lcuk	heh ofc	00:44
ali1234	but... and it is a big but... it has to be an aggregation service, not a gateway	00:45
Jaffa	ali1234: And, I say this as someone who prefers mailing lists for detailed technical discussion, offline reading, .... However, being hostile to non-developers isn't a good idea, IMHO.	00:45
ali1234	still, i think you are wrong in saying that regular users never see the community at all	00:47
ali1234	a lot of people will only go to the forum when they have a problem	00:47
ali1234	or any part of the community for that matter	00:47
ali1234	they only want an answer... nothing more... still, nothing wrong with that	00:48
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lcuk	jaffa would your remarks have been the same if it occured when internettablettalk was the semi official forum	00:48
lcuk	it being this meego	00:49
Amby	ali1234: I wonder, if forum is the right channel for problem - answer type of things	00:49
lcuk	no	00:49
ali1234	Amby: the question is irrelevant because people will use it for that whether you like it or not :)	00:49
lcuk	its a good place to chill and discuss with budies	00:49
lcuk	but its rarely an information source	00:49
ali1234	but i guess what i am trying to say is: if "regular user" has a problem and goes to post on the forum - does that instantly make them a power user?	00:50
Amby	ali1234: in our team we use a bit structured question - answer tool (kinda Yahoo Answers)	00:50
lcuk	id like to see a hybrid where forum threads span out from information	00:50
lcuk	like having the talk page on a wiki being an actual thread	00:50
Jaffa	ali1234: I said regular posting over an extended period of time, didn't I? Two posts over two weeks about a specific problem don't make them part of the community.	00:50
slaine_	lcuk, the Ubuntu forums are pretty good for getting answers to issues	00:51
lcuk	yes because they are question/answer oriented	00:51
slaine_	there's a massive ratio of data/noise though	00:51
ali1234	indeed. and the popular threads get stickied, and then transfered to the wiki. there is established protocol for this kind of thing :)	00:51
lcuk	i see ubuntu more as bugzilla	00:52
slaine_	a forum can be what you want it to be	00:52
lcuk	yeah	00:52
ali1234	ubuntu doesn't use bugzilla, launchpad is vastly superior from a user point of view	00:52
lcuk	maybe i just dont see tmo as information because its not filterable and on many pages	00:52
Jaffa	lcuk: An interesting question (about the ITT thing). ITT existed really from about the same time as maemo.org, but was more useful and more community based straight off. There was no competition so no fragmentation and the OS was so immature that a lot of stuff was still happening with "pure" techies on the mailing lists. One'd hope that MeeGo - and MeeGo devices - are more advanced than OS2005/770 so it's a different game, I think.	00:52
slaine_	it doesn't have to be a free for all flamefest. Though it's particularly good at that :)	00:52
slaine_	I've never used tmo being from the moblin side of the fence	00:52
Amby	a forum is more like the all-capturing net - if there is no structured way to get info (bugs, brainstorm), it can be anything	00:53
lcuk	i would still be really interested in seeing tmo offer "Thanks only" views onto the threads	00:53
lcuk	jaffa, yeah itt was == official for a long time	00:53
Jaffa	slaine_: It's got some growth problems with the popularity of the N900 - but being able to have a subset of sub-fora which show up in "New posts" has helped	00:53
Amby	Jaffa: isn't it because w the smaller user-base power user = community member = developer?	00:54
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Jaffa	Amby: It's a vicious (or virtuous depending on how successful you are) circle. Without developers, you don't get apps so you don't get users. But with more users you get more developers.	00:55
Jaffa	Amby: So yes, when a platform's smaller you need to be pretty committed to be a user, because it won't do much.	00:55
slaine_	see Moblin :)	00:56
Amby	I find it somewhat natural that with high traffic different uses separate more (e.g. end-user, community, developer)	00:57
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Jaffa	Amby: But "community" isn't a use. It's a side-effect, a by-product, an emergent property.	00:57
Jaffa	Amby: Moblin's had a developer community and random users popping up occasionally to ask for install help (AFAICT).	00:58
lcuk	think how many developers ask for install help for us	00:58
Jaffa	This can lead to developer navel gazing, continual reinvention and never actually delivering something users want	00:58
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ali1234	hmm... "continual reinvention?"	00:59
slaine_	man, I'm bunched	00:59
Amby	I meant community contributors wanting different channels than end-users	00:59
slaine_	time to call it a night and have some sleeps	00:59
slaine_	catch you all bright and early tomorrow ;)	01:00
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Jaffa	ali1234: Many developers often find it enticing to throw everything away and start again (hell, I recognise it in myself far too often - and definitely in my teams and many open source proejcts). The second system is almost certainly so generic it can do anything. And so, nothing.	01:01
ali1234	Jaffa: but i don't see what that has to do with forums...	01:01
ali1234	and i certainly don't see how that was a worse problem for moblin than it was for maemo	01:02
* lbt thought he saw Moblin subtext		01:02
Jaffa	Amby: Yeah, but people are selfish - no-one starts out wanting to be a "community contributor" unless there's a community to contribute to - and there's rarely a "community commmunity" ;-)	01:02
* lbt goes back to ldap hackery		01:02
thiago_home	meta-community	01:02
ali1234	Jaffa: ubuntu has good meta-community... training people to triage, package etc	01:02
Jaffa	ali1234: I was talking about if the space in which developers operate is hostile to end-users.	01:02
sivang	oh, never buy a cheap wok	01:02
sivang	what have I missed?	01:02
lbt	sivang: cheap woks are good	01:02
Jaffa	ali1234: But then there's a strong "Ubuntu" community.	01:02
lbt	you burn oil on them	01:03
sivang	lbt: I guess I'm a bad cook :)	01:03
ali1234	Jaffa: but it didn't happen by accident :)	01:03
Jaffa	ali1234: And when did I say that Moblin suffered from reinvention worse than Maemo?	01:03
sivang	lbt: It always gets burnt the first time I cook with it	01:03
lbt	you need to cure it	01:03
sivang	lbt: how ?	01:03
lbt	burning things makes them better	01:03
sivang	hehe	01:03
GeneralAntilles	Cheap aluminum or cheap cast iron?	01:03
lbt	pour oil in and heat it up until it smokes	01:03
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sivang	GeneralAntilles: /me checks	01:03
Jaffa	ali1234: Yes, and there are lots of integrated systems in Ubuntu (such as Launchpad) and the wide range of people who use ubuntuforums.org	01:03
GeneralAntilles	sivang, if you don't know, there's your problem. :P	01:04
lbt	the cheap thin steel ones	01:04
GeneralAntilles	sivang, there's no such thing as a "good" wok that isn't cast iron. :P	01:04
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GeneralAntilles	and there's no such thing as "cheap" cast iron. g	01:04
lbt	after the smoke clears the burnt residue is quite useful	01:04
* lbt looks at Maemo.....		01:04
GeneralAntilles	lbt, better to do it in the oven	01:04
GeneralAntilles	Since you'll get a better cure.	01:04
sivang	GeneralAntilles: right! so it is aluminium "foil" :-p with very cheap teflon coating.	01:04
lbt	never tried that GA	01:05
GeneralAntilles	lbt, really?	01:05
lbt	not oven	01:05
GeneralAntilles	lbt, what do you season with?	01:05
lbt	just oil/salt	01:05
sivang	lbt: hehe	01:05
sivang	lbt: pun intended?	01:05
GeneralAntilles	What oil?	01:05
ali1234	Jaffa: i would say that moblin has no problems with reinvention when compared to maemo	01:05
sivang	lbt: re: maemo	01:05
lbt	rapeseed	01:05
* Jaffa 's points are: 1) lots of developers start as users - i.e. they buy a device - and then want to scratch an itch. You need a migration path. 2) developer resources which are overly hostile to end-users don't get valuable (and useless) feedback.		01:05
GeneralAntilles	Interesting	01:05
Jaffa	ali1234: Again, when did I say that Moblin suffered from reinvention more than Maemo?	01:05
* lbt looks at Jaffa's comment and then a mirrot		01:05
lbt	r	01:05
Jaffa	I didn't even mention EITHER when talking about reinvention.	01:06
ali1234	Jaffa: you didn't. you implied that moblin suffered from reinvention problems.	01:06
* CosmoHill wonders if Meego would work with this: http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_1455.html		01:06
GeneralAntilles	I never could get a good cure out of canola back before I stopped using it.	01:06
sivang	Jaffa: that's why I'm gonna start a user story issue tracker	01:06
lbt	sivang: it did didn't it?	01:06
sivang	lbt: what?	01:06
sivang	lbt: what did ?	01:06
lbt	moblin ubuntu, moblin rpm, moblin meego	01:06
Jaffa	ali1234: Meh. Whatever. It probably does. Nokia definitely has with Maemo multiple times, and definitely with MeeGo.	01:07
lbt	good that the issue was recognised + addresssed	01:07
Jaffa	ali1234: Reinvention is sometimes necessary if you don't get the traction envisaged.	01:07
lbt	I had some +ve comments earlier Jaffa	01:07
ali1234	Jaffa: but here's the thing. ubuntu forums contributes very little to ubuntu overall. it certainly isn't where most developers start out	01:07
lbt	re having CPAN in meego	01:07
GeneralAntilles	What percentage of the top-50 contributors to maemo.org started out on Talk/itT I wonder.	01:08
lbt	and that attitude/intent seems to address my upstream concerns to a degree	01:08
Jaffa	But then you've got apps like Mauku which reinvent themselves so totally to support any use case they don't meet any well. Or countless other over-engineered systems.	01:08
lbt	GeneralAntilles: good Q	01:08
sivang	ali1234: true, and the users stories there are mostly neglected unless ubuntugeek gets them and files specs or bug reports, which I don't know when was the time he did	01:08
Jaffa	lbt: Cool.	01:09
sivang	"Do one thing, and do it well" (tm)	01:09
lbt	Jaffa: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group#Contributors	01:09
ali1234	indeed, the ubuntu forums seem to exist only because people expect them to exist	01:09
lbt	although I want to change the spec on that	01:09
Jaffa	ali1234: Fair enough. Maemo's forum operates differently. The PalmOS and EPOC ones I've been involved in worked more like the Maemo one than the Ubuntu one then.	01:10
GeneralAntilles	Of the first 2 pages of top contributors (60 users), approximately 30 originated from Talk/itT.	01:10
lbt	I wonder if MeeGo needs a universe	01:11
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Looking through the first page, almost all of the 30 are active/very-active on tmo AFAICT	01:12
lbt	wasn't quite the question	01:12
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, yeah, the activity level for nearly all of them is high.	01:12
Jaffa	lbt: Indeed.	01:12
lbt	added this to the Repo group: Package the world: Meego plans to be a 1st class distro and should not prevent packages from being made available. Cf MeeGo:Universe and MOTU	01:13
Jaffa	lbt: So it doesn't matter where you've come from, the most active contributors to Maemo are also (in addition to doing other stuff) active in the forums	01:13
lbt	or at least the karma says that :)	01:13
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Of course, those of us who joined ITT back before the 770 went on sale had nowhere else to go ;-)	01:13
* lbt looks up tautology		01:13
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, true enough.	01:13
Jaffa	lbt: yeah yeah	01:13
* lbt looks up xkcd		01:14
Jaffa	lbt: I'm the president of the tautology club beca... yeah	01:14
* lbt looks up interru		01:14
Jaffa	lbt: However, I hope you'd agree that the top 30 add value to Maemo, rather than just chatting on a forum.	01:15
ali1234	what percentage of nokia developers are active on tmo? and if you include them in your list of "most active contributors" - how does it look then?	01:15
Jaffa	+++ATH	01:15
lbt	oh yes	01:15
ali1234	and on an open project, why draw a line between them, and "community"	01:15
GeneralAntilles	MeeGo - http://meego.com/ \| Web coordination meeting @ 20:00 UTC February 24th in #meego-meeting \| FAQ http://meego.com/about/faq \| This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ \| http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work	01:15
GeneralAntilles	Oops	01:15
GeneralAntilles	Damn	01:15
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps!	01:15
Jaffa	ali1234: Many Nokia developers are; not enough. Long standing complaint.	01:15
ali1234	why should it be a complaint? how many ubuntu devs do you think post on ubuntu forums?	01:16
GeneralAntilles	Active anywhere in maemo.org.	01:16
Jaffa	ali1234: Nokia is part of the Maemo community; many Nokia employees are part of the Maemo community. Many Nokia developers are not and work 9-5 on a project without ever talking to anyone except their colleagues.	01:16
lbt	opensource development == develop in the open	01:16
ali1234	Jaffa: indeed. there has to be a in between point	01:17
lbt	they need to realise their colleagues don't all sit at desks in Hel	01:17
ali1234	Jaffa: and that doesn't necessarily mean getting everyone on the forum	01:17
Jaffa	ali1234: The complaint, as GeneralAntilles says, was they weren't active anywhere. Not on the mailing lists for technical discussion of problems; not in Bugzilla for their products; not talking about their plans.	01:17
* GeneralAntilles expects MeeGo may reduce progress on bug #630 in some ways.		01:17
Jaffa	ali1234: Where did I say it did? Can you stop saying that that's what I'm suggesting.	01:17
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ali1234	Jaffa: well your original question was composed around developer/community relations in terms of community forums	01:18
Jaffa	ali1234: Yes. Because Nokia's community manager was suggesting that trying to keep developers and non-developers separate was going to be a Good Thing - in the context of forums.	01:19
GeneralAntilles	Nokians are in for a culture shock.	01:20
Jaffa	ali1234: There are lots of other places where having developers/non-developers separate is also bad. There are lots of ways of contributing and being involved in a project without being a prolific user of a forum.	01:20
GeneralAntilles	S60 people should suffer for abusing the platform so.	01:20
lbt	Jaffa: you disagree?	01:20
Jaffa	Not of these things is in doubt.	01:20
Jaffa	s/Not/None/	01:21
ali1234	Jaffa: in context of forums - that is what all open source projects do	01:21
infobot	Jaffa meant: None of these things is in doubt.	01:21
* lbt thinks users should not be allowed in -dev		01:21
lbt	power-users may look	01:21
sivang	http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=991465&l=cedff446c8&id=1066422499	01:21
lbt	proto-devs are welcome to be quiet	01:21
Jaffa	lbt: I don't disagree - but people don't stay in neatly defined buckets, even if you can start them off like that.	01:22
Jaffa	Isn't that the basis of open source - start of as a user, find an itch and scratch it. Suddenly you're now a contributor and git has better docs ;-)	01:23
lbt	yep - role based	01:23
Jaffa	Bah. Typo city.	01:23
lbt	role is based on quality of communication	01:23
GeneralAntilles	Hopefully no docs from Jaffa. :P	01:23
ali1234	meh, i stopped being a "user" long before i started using open source	01:23
GeneralAntilles	The problem with these discussions is that everybody seems to define "user" differently.	01:24
Jaffa	ali1234: Then we're approaching this discussion from a different definition of "user".	01:24
lbt	I think the 'someone' can change roles from email to email (or post)	01:24
ali1234	or to put it another way, i got the itch a long time before maemo even existed	01:24
GeneralAntilles	and explaining what sort of "user" one or another person is talking about never seems to help.	01:24
Jaffa	I'm a senior architect at a software company at the moment. And started off as a Maemo user when a developer at one of the largest IT companies on the planet whilst having been a "developer" of some quality for about 20 years.	01:25
ali1234	i'm still trying to scratch it... haven't managed yet though	01:25
lbt	woohoo	01:25
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Jaffa	However, I bought a device which promised to do some exciting things for me as a user.	01:25
sivang	ali1234: lotion ?	01:25
lbt	aw	01:25
Jaffa	Just because I'm a developer at work doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a developer in everything I do.	01:25
ali1234	sivang: open sores :)	01:25
sivang	hehe	01:25
lbt	my ldap worked and then failed :(	01:25
Jaffa	lbt: Which LDAP server?	01:26
lbt	slapd	01:26
* Jaffa shudders.		01:26
lbt	via ruby	01:26
ali1234	i must have missed the part where maemo promises to do shiny things for the user	01:26
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lbt	slapd is nice	01:26
ali1234	surely the whole selling point is that you can hack on it?	01:26
Jaffa	ali1234: This is my point. Every user is different. Every user's use cases are different.	01:26
* lbt made slapd talk kerberos		01:27
lbt	mmm tickets	01:27
Jaffa	mmm	01:27
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lbt	should we have a meego meetup now?	01:28
Jaffa	lbt: You've reminded me I've got to revamp our LDAP code at some point :-/	01:28
VLJ	lbt: the x86 vmdk image of mer does include hildon ?	01:28
sivang	lbt: is there a schedule for the meeting?	01:29
lbt	VLJ: yes	01:29
lbt	sivang: dunno - there was a maemo meetup due in feb-ish iirc	01:30
lbt	I may have missed it	01:30
lbt	Intel and Nokia should sponsor a day meetup in London with free drinks	01:30
VLJ	hildon does not include any aesthetic effect such as compiz ?	01:30
lbt	correct	01:31
lbt	VLJ: which release of Mer?	01:31
VLJ	0.16	01:31
lbt	nod	01:31
lbt	.17 has some movement towards GL stuff	01:31
VLJ	how is it in maemo ?	01:32
lbt	fremantle?	01:32
VLJ	yes	01:32
lbt	it doesn't use compiz as such	01:32
VLJ	i though it had some nice visual effect	01:33
lbt	but there is compositing etc	01:33
lbt	it does use clutter a lot	01:33
VLJ	ok	01:33
VLJ	hildon implementation in maemo is not open source ?	01:33
lbt	well...	01:34
lbt	the problem is the closed dependencies	01:34
lbt	Mer is about resolving them	01:34
lbt	using open components	01:34
VLJ	and hildon in maemo rely on closed dependencies ?	01:35
lbt	for sure at some levels	01:35
lbt	in general it's open	01:35
lbt	but actually building it...	01:35
VLJ	and hildon in mer is not the same as in maemo ?	01:35
VLJ	I mean hildon in mer 0.17 is not the same as hildon in fremantle ?	01:36
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lbt	0.17 used fremantle source	01:36
* lbt checks where we are...		01:36
VLJ	"used" in the past ?	01:36
lbt	in the run up to 0.17 was the first time we grabbed any fremantle code	01:37
lbt	hmm we're on testing11 still	01:39
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lbt	OK ... bedtime	01:40
VLJ	see you	01:40
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sivang	can someone please oh mighty please help login to the wiki?	01:45
sivang	or at least help me find out what's wrong?	01:46
VDVsx	sivang, do you have a meego.org account ?	01:47
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jebba	sivang: did you try logging into the main page, not the wiki?	01:50
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jebba	i couldn't log in if i tried via the wiki, but could log in via the main page, then edit	01:50
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VDVsx	jebba, you need(ed) to confirm your email again when you log in the wiki with you meego.org account o_0	01:53
sivang	jebba: yes	01:55
sivang	VDVsx: yes	01:55
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embedded	hi all	02:00
CosmoHill	hey	02:00
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sivang	I give up.	02:14
sivang	Hopefully wiki/CMS integration will be fixed by tomorrow.	02:14
CosmoHill	hehe	02:15
sivang	CosmoHill: what?	02:15
sivang	CosmoHill: you don't think it is going to be fixed? :)	02:16
* CosmoHill shurgs		02:16
CosmoHill	a hammer?	02:16
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CosmoHill	casual violences can solve a lot of things	02:17
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sivang	CosmoHill: let's hope we don't need to get so low :)	02:22
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CosmoHill	hehe	02:23
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qwertyuiop	is there an official meego forum up anywhere yet?	02:27
CosmoHill	somewhere	02:28
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CosmoHill	night night	02:39
* CosmoHill ponders how he ended up in 5 channels		02:39
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Texrat	hello	04:18
solarion	Texrat: hey	04:19
Texrat	hey	04:19
Texrat	is Jaffa on?	04:19
solarion	I've no idea	04:19
solarion	Jaffa: you on?	04:19
Texrat	hopng he would ;)	04:19
solarion	:)	04:19
solarion	I'm just amazed that tab completion worked like it should :)	04:20
Texrat	trying to have a presentation ready for meego meeting tomorrow	04:20
Texrat	tab completion?	04:20
solarion	ah, cool	04:20
solarion	yeah	04:20
solarion	irc client	04:20
Texrat	I'm rusty at irc	04:20
Texrat	been a while	04:20
solarion	welcome back then. :)	04:20
Texrat	thanks ;)	04:21
* solarion is also solarion on t.m.o		04:21
solarion	where is this meego con?	04:21
Texrat	#meego-meeting I believe	04:21
Texrat	20:00 UTC tomorrow	04:21
solarion	ah, thanks	04:21
solarion	2pm CST?	04:22
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Texrat	heck I forget the conversion	04:22
Texrat	ok someone test this pdf link	04:23
Texrat	http://maemo-daemons.org/MeeGo_User_Experience_Framework.pdf	04:23
solarion	"Enhancing, capturing and leveraging the MeeGo device user experience	04:24
Texrat	ok cool	04:24
solarion	is this gonna be webcasted or something?	04:24
Texrat	still needs work but it will do for now	04:24
Texrat	naw	04:24
solarion	or do you post it and we follow along on irc?	04:25
Texrat	I'm just gonna have the link ready	04:25
Texrat	I don't know if I'll have a chance to bring it up, but I want to be ready	04:25
Texrat	in a week or so I should have the whole thing done, then I'll share it out	04:25
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Texrat	ok gotta go	04:26
Texrat	later	04:26
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timjiang	hi	04:50
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Texrat_	back	05:13
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Texrat_	hello	05:20
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Amby	Good morning	09:23
Myrtti	moin	09:23
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Stskeeps	morning peopl	09:48
Stskeeps	e	09:48
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DocScrutinizer	morning Stskeeps	09:49
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lbt	o/	10:01
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slaine_	morning all	10:37
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mook01	ahoi	10:41
Stskeeps	ahoop	10:41
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dl9pf_	morning !	10:42
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slaine_	man, I need some wakeup juice	10:46
* gladiac prefers coffee to wake up		10:47
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Stskeeps	morning qgil	10:49
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Stskeeps	qgil_: thanks for gtk+ reply, clears things up	10:59
leinir	link? :)	11:00
Stskeeps	http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html	11:01
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qgil_	Stskeeps: appreciated :)	11:02
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qgil_	I hope the interest in having GTK+ well supported in MeeGo (as seen in many comments last week) comes together with a word from the maintainers	11:03
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qgil_	Stskeeps: follow-up http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00012.html	11:04
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leinir	Yeah, absolutely - while i personally have zero interest in using gtk+, it would be a hit against the whole freedom ideal if it was lost somewhere along the way	11:06
muep	imo it is not at all related to software freedom	11:07
leinir	muep: no - it's related to developer freedom :)	11:08
leinir	The freedom to choose whatever software development tools you want, while still being able to make something that looks like it belongs :)	11:08
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slaine_	to my knowledge, GTK+ in Moblin (and presumable MeeGo) is stock GTK+, so I'd imagine it's a case of keeping abreast with upstream per release.	11:11
Stskeeps	while maemo gtk is a mutated beast, to say it gently	11:11
qgil_	leinir: sure, but useful software freedom comes together with good software maintenance	11:12
qgil_	and this is why I'm asking about plans to sync GTK+ 'flavors', find out the plan for Hildon, etc	11:12
slaine_	Stskeeps: hmm, true	11:12
slaine_	Does Hildon patch GTK+ ?	11:12
benbrown	How easy is Qt for people who've never used c++, but are ok with c?	11:13
leinir	benbrown: Well... How's your OOP knowledge? :)	11:13
benbrown	slaine_: Don't think so, if I understand it correctly then Hildon's a layer on top of GTK	11:13
villemv	benbrown: do you mean "ok with c + gobject"?	11:13
Stskeeps	slaine_: yes	11:13
benbrown	not really used much OOP.	11:14
Stskeeps	slaine_: in concept hildon doesnt rely on maemo gtk, but in practice it does	11:14
villemv	well, Qt is easy for pretty much everybody	11:14
benbrown	done a tiny bit with some perl stuff	11:14
slaine_	benbrown, learn some C++, if you're good at C it won't be a huge leap	11:14
leinir	just a second...	11:14
slaine_	I tend to program in C++ as C + Classes	11:14
benbrown	I'm not awesome at C, but I'm fairly competant and getting better	11:14
slaine_	But that's because 99% of the time I code in C	11:15
villemv	if you know C, you know nothing yet... GObject is a whole universe of its own	11:15
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slaine_	lol villemv	11:15
benbrown	There a good place to start reading up on it?	11:15
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leinir	it's a universe of PAIN! ;)	11:15
villemv	C => Qt & C++ is easier than C => GObject IMO	11:15
slaine_	GObject or C++ ?	11:15
villemv	GObject of course	11:15
benbrown	or are you being overly dramatic ;)	11:15
slaine_	slightly	11:16
leinir	benbrown: yup, right here: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6/index.html <-- in particular the Getting Started bit in the top left corner :)	11:16
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benbrown	I'll give that a try later, at work now so probably should get some done ;)	11:16
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slaine_	you can do OOP with C, it's more convoluted than with C++. GObject	11:16
slaine_	is C with OOP	11:16
leinir	"you can TRY TO do OOP with C" there, i fixed it for you ;)	11:17
gladiac	uahah, gobject is so ugly	11:17
muep	I understood that GObject implements more dynamic object model than for example C++ does	11:18
thiago	GObject has a two-pass construction mechanism	11:18
thiago	you can't have that with stock C++ (but you can if you stop using new)	11:18
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muep	I think their docs say that a lot of the complexity comes from the intention to ease interoperability with different programming languages	11:19
Jaffa	solarion: pong	11:19
villemv	and of course you can use GObject from C++ if you feel attraction to the pain	11:19
benbrown	I'm new to all this gui stuff. I'm finding GTK+ to be a pain in the ass.	11:20
thiago	the problem is that C casts don't check for validity. C++ static_cast check that you can do it.	11:20
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thiago	C++ also closes the "void star loophole"	11:20
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robsta	benbrown: did you use a gui builder (glade) with gtk+?	11:20
benbrown	no. might be where I was going wrong	11:21
hhartz	benbrown: you could also get the 2nd edition of the programming with Qt4 book. 1st edition is free online: http://www.qtrac.eu/C++-GUI-Programming-with-Qt-4-1st-ed.zip	11:21
benbrown	did it all in vim	11:21
robsta	benbrown: it's certainly a huge new API at first (same holds for qt)	11:21
leinir	Yes, i can definitely vouch for that book - very easily red, and brilliant introduction :)	11:21
slaine_	qgil_: whens the MeeGo community meeting scheduled for ?	11:23
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robsta	benbrown: as regards gobject don't pay too much attention to the gripes	11:23
Stskeeps	slaine_: 20 UTC i think	11:23
X-Fade	slaine_: 20:OO UTC today	11:23
villemv	robsta: "never mind that bullet coming at you"? ;-)	11:23
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slaine_	And will it be here ?	11:23
benbrown	Where's gobject fit in?	11:23
benbrown	does qt sit on top of it?	11:24
villemv	no	11:24
villemv	gtk sits	11:24
slaine_	Qt is of itself	11:24
slaine_	GTK+ and Qt are two different toolkits	11:24
benbrown	ahh ok.	11:24
slaine_	From which Gnome and KDE sprotted as two different DE's	11:24
slaine_	GTK+/Gnome, Qt/KDE	11:24
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benbrown	yeah I knew that bit, just unsure on the nuts and bolts	11:25
robsta	benbrown: gobject is a C infrastructure, if you write your library with it you can easily use that library from a variety of programming languages like python, javascript, ...	11:25
robsta	benbrown: writing applications with C/gobject is not really recommended these days	11:25
benbrown	ahh right	11:25
robsta	it's just that so many people have gotten used to it over the years	11:26
slaine_	GTK+ is built ontop of glib and glib has portability layer in there with the likes of gchar, gint etc. There's also higher level abstractions like GList and the daddy of them all GObject	11:26
slaine_	Everything on GTK+ is based on a GObject.	11:26
robsta	benbrown: read "not recommended if you are new to it"	11:26
slaine_	robsta, if you want to do lowlevel stuff though, you kinda have to know it	11:27
slaine_	Implementing custom clutter actors etc.	11:27
villemv	slaine_: what do you mean?	11:27
villemv	ah	11:27
villemv	can you poke custom clutter actors into hildon-dekstop?	11:28
Stskeeps	afaik	11:28
slaine_	via clutter-gtk I'd imagie so	11:28
slaine_	Wasn't that how the launcher on the n900 was done ?	11:29
villemv	so there is a plugin system that loads them to the hildon-dekstop process?	11:29
qgil_	slaine_: http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-website-irc-meeting	11:29
villemv	they are explicitly loaded plugins I think	11:29
villemv	dunno if you can add your own	11:29
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slaine_	excellent, thanks qgil_	11:29
robsta	slaine_: yes, writing actual apps in clutter is a chapter of its own	11:29
slaine_	It's lots of fun though :-D	11:29
villemv	and clutter is mostly n900 stuff	11:29
villemv	not necessarily part of the glorious meego future	11:30
* slaine_ <3 clutter		11:30
Stskeeps	X-Fade: you have op acceess in here if you want to change topic to advertise meeting	11:30
X-Fade	Stskeeps: You do too, right?	11:30
slaine_	villemv: The hardest part of the MeeGo announcement for me and the stone tablet, erm, I mean architecture diagram was that Clutter/MX seems to have been pushed off to the side	11:31
thiago	10:30 -!- Topic set by Stskeeps	11:31
robsta	slaine_: for many of us	11:31
* slaine_ hugs robsta		11:31
Stskeeps	X-Fade: yes, but i am in a car and topics dont turn well out when n900 is shaking :P	11:31
villemv	slaine_: it also disappeared from faq	11:32
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villemv	at least mx	11:33
slaine_	the power of the wiki	11:33
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o X-Fade		11:34
*** X-Fade changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq \| This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ \| http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who \| Community website meeting 20:00 UTC #meego-meeting http://wiki.meego.com/Community_website_meeting_2010_2_24"		11:34
*** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq \| This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ \| http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work \| Website meeting 24-Feb-2010 20:00 UTC, http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-website-irc-meeting"		11:34
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*** X-Fade sets mode: -o X-Fade		11:34
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps		11:35
Stskeeps	:P	11:35
X-Fade	Dude ;)	11:35
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slaine_	Where does the OBS build command get it's environment variables from for the chroot. The host system or the chroot packages ?	11:46
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lbt	slaine_: chroot	11:51
lbt	some stuff is passed through	11:51
slaine_	that's even weirder then :(	11:51
lbt	the objective is to setup a 'pure' chroot	11:52
slaine_	Does it build as user root or some other generated user ?	11:52
slaine_	in the chroot	11:52
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lbt	and any env set by the user for the build is passed through	11:52
lbt	it runs as an anonymous user	11:52
slaine_	So PATH for example gets passed though ?	11:52
lbt	no	11:53
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lbt	things like CFLAGS ovverrides maybe	11:53
slaine_	'cause the path seems to include /sbin and /usr/sbin which makes lots of the .src.rpm's fail (make install will create a /usr/share/info/dir which the spec files don't package)	11:53
lbt	I know how it works fairly intimately for deb building.... less so for spec	11:53
lbt	OK, I'd suggest that's a packaging issue though	11:54
slaine_	Oh indeed	11:54
lbt	OBS does tend to pick up on niggles	11:54
slaine_	And one I pointed out over a year ago	11:54
lbt	as it's a very very clean environment	11:54
lbt	in Mer we had to polish a fair few maemo packages	11:55
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slaine_	Obviously the Moblin guys are doing something that they've not documented to get around these problems	11:56
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lbt	<grin>	11:56
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lbt	where are you building?	11:56
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slaine_	On a fedora 12 desktop	11:56
lbt	ok, what OBS are you using	11:57
timeless_mbp	so, fwiw mxr.moego.org/repo.moblin.org took a bit over 25 hours to index	11:57
* timeless_mbp grumbles at the vm that's hosting moego being a bit slow		11:58
slaine_	lbt, http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively	11:58
slaine_	I followed that	11:58
timeless_mbp	(it seems that it's using a kernel which is not xen friendly)	11:58
lbt	slaine_: ah	11:59
lbt	so that's like a manual run of the osc build cmd	11:59
lbt	BTW the moblin.txt file is what gets downloaded each time you use 'osc' to build	12:00
lbt	since it contains config stuff for the chroot that may change	12:00
slaine_	nod	12:00
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lbt	(well, not each time - the depends are done each time - other things are cached)	12:01
slaine_	hmm, the very end of that config file actually has commands that may well be the root cause of the problem	12:01
tybollt	timeless_mbp: Dude, it's meego, we've ben over this, M-E-E-G-O :)	12:02
* tybollt runs and hides ;)		12:02
timeless_mbp	tybollt: i'm waiting for mxr.meego.org	12:02
lbt	slaine_: yes - that's the macro stuff	12:02
timeless_mbp	until then, mxr.moego.org is what i've got	12:02
lbt	I didn't use any of that in my deb building	12:03
timeless_mbp	err i'm waiting for mxr.meego.com	12:03
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lbt	(and I can't tell which %s are macros and which are section headings)	12:03
tybollt	timeless_mbp: I think that's the spot on right there... it's a .com... says just about everything doesn't it? :-S	12:03
timeless_mbp	tybollt: i was given mxr.maemo.org	12:03
tybollt	that's my point...	12:03
timeless_mbp	i'm hoping to be able to get mxr.meego.com, i don't see why it should be different	12:04
tybollt	there is a transition from .org to .com	12:04
timeless_mbp	maemo.org dns is owned by a .com	12:04
timeless_mbp	ok, not a dot-com	12:04
timeless_mbp	but a com	12:04
timeless_mbp	(perhaps a .bomb?)	12:04
tybollt	but it is still meant to be an org	12:04
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sivang	Morning all	12:20
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sivang	Can someone please fix my Wiki login?	12:20
sivang	I've been hitting my head on the desk since last night	12:20
sivang	still no go.	12:20
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timeless_mbp	sivang: so	12:29
timeless_mbp	you want to log in from meego.com, not the wiki	12:29
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timeless_mbp	the two things seem to have conflicting concepts of login	12:29
timeless_mbp	the former works, the latter is just there to annoy you	12:29
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sivang	timeless_mbp: okay, let's try again.	12:32
sivang	so, login to meego.com first, yes?	12:32
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timeless_mbp	yes	12:32
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sivang	timeless_mbp: right, done that.	12:33
timeless_mbp	then go to the wiki, it should know who you are	12:34
timeless_mbp	you can also try killing all your cookies for meego	12:34
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sivang	timeless_mbp: right, I should clear the cookies, wiki refuses to admit he knows me :)	12:34
sivang	timeless_mbp: no go :...-(	12:36
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hrw	re	12:43
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hrw	still no informations from nokia/intel about how much components will be closed in meego?	12:44
slaine_	still no anything	12:44
robsta	hrw: since meego is a platform for netbooks, handhelds etc it might depend on the actual device	12:46
timeless_mbp	hrw: i wouldn't expect real info for a couple of months	12:46
timeless_mbp	3-27 months perhaps :)	12:46
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hrw	timeless_mbp: was worth asking	12:47
timeless_mbp	not really :)	12:49
Stskeeps	hrw: open source platform, possibly closed source hardware blobs, open kernel stuff, differentiation apps as far as i can hear	12:50
Stskeeps	:P	12:50
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tybollt	Stskeeps: 'possibly'?	12:51
tybollt	definitely	12:51
slaine_	I'm not sure how that'll play either	12:51
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slaine_	as Intel refused to ship binary drivers for Moblin	12:52
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tybollt	This is intel we are talking about - mother of all things NDA	12:52
tybollt	"Hi, so you're employed at Intel? Is it fun working there?" -Sorry, you'll need to sign this NDA here, there and on the last page there, before I can talk to you.	12:52
hrw	Stskeeps: you forgot about closed applications	12:53
Stskeeps	but selling your soul is fun for the whole family	12:53
Stskeeps	hrw: no, differentiation apps (closed)	12:53
tybollt	Stskeeps: >:D	12:53
Stskeeps	:P	12:53
tybollt	Stskeeps: good ol family fun!	12:53
robsta	tybollt: totally unlike, say, google or apple	12:53
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tybollt	robsta: do you think I own an iPhone bubba? :)	12:54
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slaine_	I do, and I love it	12:59
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slaine_	lbt: is there a way to get build to provide you with a shell into the chroot ?	13:07
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slaine_	Is it just me or have things gone amazingly quiet since the end of last week	13:11
slaine_	The repo's for meego get turned off and all the devs have disappeared	13:11
Stskeeps	there's a thread on openness	13:12
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Stskeeps	i think there's a lot of discussions going on, even though i wouldn't mind them being public, i do understand that they might need to have intense discussions nokia and intel..	13:12
slaine_	yeah	13:13
hrw	Stskeeps: maybe nokia wants to put some of their old crap from maemo5 base system into meego? :D	13:13
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slaine_	qgil_: nice reply	13:15
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tybollt	Stskeeps: you would think those discussions should've taken place prior to going all in w/ those two projects ... no?	13:15
slaine_	indeed,	13:16
slaine_	somewhat surprised at that	13:16
tybollt	When intel is involved - you can't be surprised...	13:16
Stskeeps	tybollt: you have to consider this move was probably very controversial	13:16
slaine_	It's clear that the Intel coders didn't know much about it and the same for the Nokia guys	13:16
qgil_	slaine_: well, I understand the concern but I hope people understand the situation	13:16
slaine_	That would explain the polar views of what MeeGo actually is	13:17
lbt	slaine_: yes	13:17
benbrown	I like maemo. Never used moblin. I am biased as a debian user I guess	13:17
lbt	hi qgil_	13:17
slaine_	benbrown: and I'm the opposite	13:17
tybollt	Stskeeps: mind, I'm a chronic synic... I should just shut up really ;)	13:17
slaine_	and that's the case for everyone coming here	13:17
Stskeeps	i think the best thing is just for the 'blackout' to finish asap, and work on the community angle	13:17
qgil_	tybollt: those technical discussions on the architecture details, API, etc require a lot more people than the people that was involved on high level decisions prior to the launch	13:17
Stskeeps	and then join in the technical effort	13:17
lbt	slaine_: build is a component of the obs stuff... there are some cute wrappers around it	13:18
slaine_	We all want something better than what we had. But we don't want to loose what we had either	13:18
lbt	eg "osc chroot"	13:18
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slaine_	lbt, I'll check out the other tools	13:18
qgil_	if we would have tried to involve everybody in order to make a perfect plan, that launch would have happened later, that plan would have leaked and now we would be anyway trying to deal with your uncertainty :9	13:18
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Stskeeps	+1 for "Everybody is willing to have this bootstrapping process completed, with	13:18
Stskeeps	all the common ground clearly exposed and publicly documented."	13:18
lbt	slaine_: we're not fully setup - just expect it to get better with OBS/osc	13:18
Stskeeps	really important for future work	13:18
slaine_	qgil_: I appreciate that. and I think we all do. Your point about any open source project starting behind the scenes and then having a debut is accurate for me.	13:19
Stskeeps	and especially decisions made and decisions not taken but known should be discussed :P	13:19
qgil_	also, looking the practical aspect:	13:19
qgil_	look the deb/rpm discussion over a decision made	13:19
qgil_	now imagine that discussion prior to a decision	13:19
tybollt	all this "all will be well - RSN - we promise" makes me think of other successfull projects like oh... the Neo... for instance >:)	13:20
villemv	democracy won't work	13:20
qgil_	and now imagine it again next to 101 parallel discussions about other aspects of the platform	13:20
slaine_	Design by committee never really works	13:20
Stskeeps	slaine_: design by mailing list may work, but humanity would die out before a consensus was reached ;)	13:20
slaine_	lol	13:21
qgil_	if you don't agree with the common ground proposed for MeeGo you will have several options:	13:21
villemv	perhaps people want to be informed early, as opposed to just being able to vaice their opinion	13:21
qgil_	1. Ignore it and move somewhere else	13:21
Corsac	qgil_: maybe there was a discussion because the decision was already made and not explained technically, that's all	13:21
slaine_	And also, this is a commercial descision. It's not some hippy love in	13:21
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qgil_	2. try to improve the aspects you are most concerned	13:21
qgil_	3. fork the project since at the end all the MeeGo code is open source	13:21
tybollt	slaine_: point in case!	13:21
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qgil_	4. use the MeeGo infra to come up with the configuration with the components, API etc iof your choice	13:22
tybollt	slaine_: things are .com now, not .org (for good and for bad)	13:22
Stskeeps	Corsac: and mostly cos it wasn't a technical one, but an organisational one :P	13:22
qgil_	etc+	13:22
Corsac	Stskeeps: definitely	13:22
Stskeeps	(which shows some degree of tunnel vision for people)	13:22
qgil_	Corsac: the MeeGo API is not defined today, and the discussion is technical	13:22
tybollt	som degree of? I'm in a tunnel w/ no light at the end of it stskeeps.	13:23
qgil_	Dui is not confirmed (or denied) as an API to be promoted to 3rd party developers, and the discussion is technical	13:23
lbt	qgil_: 4 is worth stressing to people	13:23
lbt	it gives reassurance that it's not "our way or the highway"	13:24
lbt	which I think I see between the lines sometimgs	13:24
qgil_	aspects like "will QML be ready when?", "what about Orbit API?" etc are based on mostly technical discussion: will X be in good shape and when?	13:24
qgil_	lbt: you (and anybody) can help stressing these things.	13:25
lbt	heh - will do now :)	13:25
lbt	kinda more cautious about saying things now I work internally too	13:25
Corsac	mpf.	13:26
lbt	Stskeeps: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group#Areas	13:27
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Stskeeps	lbt: can be elaborated a bit	13:27
lbt	want to stretch the definitions here	13:27
Stskeeps	source spec compatibility/alignment	13:27
lbt	yes - was going to grab you+xfade etc	13:28
lbt	to chat sometime	13:28
Corsac	and MOTU package will definitely need QA	13:29
lcuk	lbt, internal or external you have the most experience and can generally explain obs better and even tend to give people a good understanding once they finish chattin with you about it	13:30
lbt	nod	13:31
lbt	I'm hoping to publish some internal docs too	13:31
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lcuk	great!	13:32
lbt	until then just yell	13:32
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slaine_	Oh, remember yesterday I said that Qt Creator was having performance issues on my netbook ?	13:35
slaine_	Well, that was when running on the battery, it went away when using power.	13:35
slaine_	And I know Qt-Creator isn't a benchmark for Qt performance on mobile devices	13:36
slaine_	However, I wrote my first Qt program, yay (the Hello MeeGo sample from Bob Spencer )	13:37
benbrown	Is Qt Designer worth using or does it bloat code?	13:37
leinir	benbrown: it's well worth using :)	13:38
leinir	Rather, it depends on what you're doing, but in general yes :)	13:38
slaine_	Whats the diff between Qt Designer and Qt Creator ?	13:38
leinir	slaine_: Qt Designer is the UI designer, and is embedded in Qt Creator :)	13:38
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thiago	slaine_: cool	13:38
tekojo	slaine_ Designer is a drawing too for UI and Creator is an IDE	13:38
slaine_	thanks	13:38
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thiago	Creator includes/embeds Designer	13:39
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hrw	qgil_: question can be: what is definition of 'meego code'	13:55
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hrw	qgil_: cause 'since at the end all the MeeGo code is open source' does not cover closed source apps which are already confirmed to be present in harmattan	13:56
Stskeeps	meego is a platform	13:57
hrw	Stskeeps: moblin was a platform too but gave working system from that. what will meego give? console-image + qt but let user join it by himself?	13:59
Stskeeps	hrw: as far as i can tell it will give you a base environment	14:00
Stskeeps	as in, it will boot into a ui	14:00
Stskeeps	that's how i understand all the marketing talk at least :)	14:01
Stskeeps	and then vendors put apps on top and maybe service apis and so on	14:02
Stskeeps	if it's a base distro with connectivity and all that jazz, i'm happy :P	14:02
qgil_	hrw: MeeGo is platform + reference apps, all open source	14:03
qgil_	hrw: then device vendors (e.g. Nokia) can take those apps or not, and can add their own apps (open or closed)	14:03
qgil_	hrw: on top of this, specifically Harmattan will not map 100% the MeeGo platform, so it might be that there is still some closed middleware there (honestly, I don't know today)	14:04
qgil_	hrw: is it clear now?	14:04
GeneralAntilles	We're in for some confusion with Harmattan. . . .	14:05
qgil_	Stskeeps: "connectivity and all that jazz" is open in MeeGo	14:05
Stskeeps	qgil_: great :)	14:05
* GeneralAntilles hopes conman will match ICD.		14:05
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: in a world of architecture diagrams without dealines, Nokia would have contributed already whatever needed to ConnMan (and oFono) to make them suitable for Harmattan	14:07
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: in the real world, though... (ask Patrik Flykt, Aki Niemi & co)	14:07
thiago	qgil_: heya	14:07
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qgil_	thiago: yo ma man!	14:07
GeneralAntilles	Did we pick a chair for the web meeting?	14:08
qgil_	thiago: I don't know how you manage producing all the stuff you produce, knowing all the stuff you know and still be present in new mailing lists and IRC channels	14:08
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thiago	qgil_: waiting for Qt to compile	14:08
thiago	it takes 15 minutes :-)	14:08
qgil_	thiago: I can manage with new channels but only because I'm half as clever than you :)	14:08
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tigert	foo	14:10
GeneralAntilles	bared	14:11
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hrw	qgil_: yes, thanks	14:13
* thiago installs MADDE		14:15
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florian	hrw: sounds like we have some work to do in oe :-)	14:15
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hrw	florian: you mean "cp meego oe/recipes/" stuff?	14:19
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florian	hrw: something like this... and "vi meego-image.bb" :)	14:20
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hrw	florian: first we need to wait half year for code drop	14:21
hrw	florian: and I hope that repository admins will be from moblin/intel	14:21
florian	hehe	14:21
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hhartz	qgil_: and still, he manages to be in half the phone conferences in the world. I know, I sit in his office ;)	14:29
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qgil_	hhartz: I guess he even dares to go for lunch!	14:30
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* hhartz thinks there are thiago clones out there		14:30
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Amby_	lunchbreak question: does MeeGo have a fire wall?	14:33
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Stskeeps	against all the flamewars, it definately needs one	14:34
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: "So, forgive my skepticism." - sure, and I was expecting it	14:34
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: I just wanted to make sure that my silence was not understood as a concession :)	14:34
Amby_	Stskeeps: only girls hide behind firewalls (http://www.funnyaccidentblog.com/stories/how-one-hacker-hacked-his-own-computer)	14:35
zaheerm	qgil_, btw sorry for disturbing you last week wwhile i was at mwc	14:35
zaheerm	qgil_, they said i needed a nokia contact to get in the nokia building	14:36
GeneralAntilles	qgil_, quite honestly, the fragmentation from vendor-specific app stores is worrisome.	14:36
qgil_	hi zaheerm no problem, I just got that weird train in the communter train	14:36
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: devices are vendor specific	14:37
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: there is not one single supermarket providing bananas for everybody	14:37
zaheerm	GeneralAntilles, i think it makes sense to have vendor specific appstores, as long as cost to push into multiple is not high (time, admin and price)	14:37
GeneralAntilles	I get the feeling that we're losing a lot of the advantages a unified mobile Linux platform can bring due to each vendor wanting to bring their own crap.	14:37
GeneralAntilles	qgil_, Android seems to manage it.	14:37
zaheerm	GeneralAntilles, android has a bad experience because of it	14:38
GeneralAntilles	Really, Android's shared app market is the only thing keeping the platform cohesive.	14:38
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: the risk of a mess is there but there is also an opportunity for a more flexible setting really fitting the needs for developers, users and the rest of business involved in the industry	14:38
GeneralAntilles	Personally, as a consumer, I'd like to see MeeGo as bringing Maemo to a wider range of devices.	14:39
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: ask the Android-no-Google stakeholders their opinion	14:39
zaheerm	GeneralAntilles, lots of comments, this doesn't work on nexus one or too slow on g1 or even worse, this app doesn't work until you root the device	14:39
GeneralAntilles	Especially since Nokia has been slowly drifting away from their existing customers.	14:39
leinir	What do you mean, the people who used to buy rubber boots from them? ;)	14:40
GeneralAntilles	leinir, no, I mean people like me who aren't going to buy a capacitive device.	14:40
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GeneralAntilles	Unfortunately Nokia seems very tied up in pushing their Ovi stuff to the detriment of MeeGo as a platform.	14:41
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qgil_	GeneralAntilles: Nokia is putting a huge investment in MeeGo development that other competitors don't need to match when using MeeGo	14:42
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: it makes sense that Nokia tries to combine that investment with investment in other areas that define some difference with their competitors	14:43
GeneralAntilles	qgil_, I get the business perspective	14:43
GeneralAntilles	Unfortunately that perspective doesn't align with my needs as a customer	14:43
GeneralAntilles	I'd really like to give Nokia my money	14:43
GeneralAntilles	unfortunately it seems they really don't want it.	14:43
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: if the Ovi stuff s*cks then you can pick any other vendor going for vanilla MeeGo with decent hardware and a cheaper price	14:43
zaheerm	or flash vanilla meego on a nokia product...	14:44
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qgil_	GeneralAntilles: the question for Nokia (and anybody putting a mobile business together) is whether it is a good investment to concentrate on "your" needs	14:44
GeneralAntilles	In this particular case, my needs are pretty simple	14:45
GeneralAntilles	I want whatever the N900+1 device is with a resistive touchscreen.	14:45
GeneralAntilles	and, so, seemingly, do a lot of existing N900 customers.	14:45
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qgil_	we have examples of other platforms and products that fit well specific needs... but at some point becase non-sustainable businesses	14:46
GeneralAntilles	But, whatever, that's all off-topic here.	14:46
Amby_	GeneralAntilles: do you have an estimate for the "lot of" number?	14:46
* GeneralAntilles has found MeeGo is very good for sucking away his enthusiasm.		14:47
leinir	What i want is a device with a capacitative touch screen, that i can use a proper stylus on	14:47
GeneralAntilles	leinir, unless it's a hybrid device no suck beast exists.	14:48
GeneralAntilles	s/suck/such/	14:48
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: leinir, unless it's a hybrid device no such beast exists.	14:48
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: well, at least we should let things get started before our enthusiasm fades ;)	14:48
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, then I need to get moving fast. . . .	14:48
leinir	GeneralAntilles: Well, when i say "proper stylus" i'd be fine with that stylus being something a bit odd, like the Wacom ones - and there is hope there, since they're actively working on something there :)	14:49
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: first meeting today, which is a start	14:49
qgil_	GeneralAntilles: what specifically bothers you from MeeGo that didn't bother you before MeeGo?	14:49
leinir	Best of both world from where i'm sitting - finger control niftiness, plus wacom's brilliant stylus control :)	14:49
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hrw	qgil_: or we can move to other device with vanilla meego and hack nokia apps to work there	14:51
qgil_	hrw: that would break an EULA	14:51
qgil_	hrw: I'm a software freedom lover, which means that I pay attention to license agreements ;)	14:51
GeneralAntilles	qgil_, well, it bothers me that Maemo was seemingly just starting to move in the right direction and all of that is now going out of the airlock. It bothers me to see that many of the opportunities to bring a cohesive experience with a unified mobile Linux platform are being forgone in favor of vendors creating their own differentiated playgrounds (which, in the end, will likely impact users). And it bothers me that a brand	14:52
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GeneralAntilles	Not exactly a series of resounding technical issues, but there you have it.	14:52
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: you got cut off at "that a brand"	14:52
hrw	qgil_: I saw too many environments where people did such hacks. not that I follow	14:52
GeneralAntilles	. . . And it bothers me that a brand I have a lot of emotional attachment to is being killed in favor of a Fisher Price toy.	14:52
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, need a more intelligent client. . . .	14:53
MDevelop	anyone is living at Helsinki?	14:53
Laiska	o/	14:54
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qgil_	GeneralAntilles: I can't argue your points with words. Reality comes delivered every day, so we'll see where we are in few months	14:54
hrw	generally so far Maemo was niche distribution and until n900+2 (as second meego device) there still will be small market	14:54
qgil_	MDevelop: I live in Helsinki	14:54
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MDevelop	qgil_ I am writing you by private	14:54
pillar_	MDevelop: close by	14:55
hrw	770/n800/n810 were community devices, no apps other then nokia or community ones. n900 got released and killed by moving qt, maemo->meego stuff...	14:55
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qgil_	Reading some posts specially in maemo.org one gets the feeling that we are idealizing already the past	14:56
Stskeeps	yes, like people thinking maemo was 100% open source :P	14:56
qgil_	MeeGo actually fixes many things that were deeply polemic or disappointing for many people	14:57
Amby	GeneralAntilles: I share part of that sentiment, for a long time I wanted to fell in love w a Nokia device. Maemo got very close and I had high hopes for M6. But MeeGo will correct one major problem: apps/dev support.	14:57
GeneralAntilles	qgil_, more concrete, the TSG really needs to make some sort of official appearance.	14:57
hrw	Stskeeps: ;)	14:57
slaine_	qgil_ Hopefully MeeGo will have more of a community than Moblin too	14:57
zaheerm	it's a major step that the stuff that matters is now being governed by linux foundation and being developed openly	14:57
slaine_	It was a very lonely place	14:57
Corsac	qgil_: but meego doesn't exist yet, it's full of expectation only, which is what bother people, I think	14:57
hrw	slaine_: someone has to provide apps...	14:58
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hrw	slaine_: so community is required for it	14:58
mikhas	We all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place.	14:58
Amby	qgil_: some milestones and real objectives from TSG is a good first step :)	14:58
Corsac	it seems that nokia dropped n900/maemo for something else, and we can't really see a pilot	14:59
qgil_	I understand your coments about the TSG	14:59
qgil_	they are two real guys with real email addresses	14:59
qgil_	I have pinged them already	14:59
slaine_	Corsac: that was my impression too, well, not so much the n900, but maemo as a platform.	14:59
qgil_	as MeeGo community guys (note that as for today I don't have any official responsibility)	14:59
hrw	Corsac: nokia always do that with maemo devices. this time they offer us unknown future with lot of apps etc etc (probably will need to be written by users for users)	15:00
Corsac	saying “the community needs to take care” when community didn't have a word about the move in the first place is a bit inconsistant and problematic	15:00
slaine_	However, I'm open to the possibility that early comments from both sides where somewhat biased to their origins and we really will see something collaborative.	15:00
Corsac	inconsistent, sorry	15:00
qgil_	Corsac: who says “the community needs to take care” and im which context?	15:00
Corsac	qgil_: basically about maemo.org stuff	15:01
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Corsac	that all the .org part was community related, so it needed to be taken care of by the community	15:01
qgil_	Corsac: 1. I've spent zillion hours on maemo.org since the launch	15:01
Corsac	which isn't insane in any way though :)	15:01
qgil_	Corsac: 2. what you you do better in my/Nokia's case	15:01
Corsac	and your time is greatly appreciated	15:01
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GeneralAntilles	The .com on MeeGo is confusing to people.	15:02
* GeneralAntilles wonders if anybody made an attempt to pick up the .org		15:02
tybollt	GeneralAntilles: I love it	15:02
qgil_	tekojo is also behind this, and we are funding salaries of several community guys to help handling whatever community effort	15:02
Corsac	qgil_: I'm not sure, but I think it would have been nice to include community (maemo.org council maybe?) in the game earlier. I can imagine it's not really what .com like because there was a need to announce that in a big party at MWC	15:03
tybollt	GeneralAntilles: it's ++ for the cynics like me who like to spread FUD just for kicks ;)	15:03
Corsac	but still :/	15:03
qgil_	so it's not that we have put some curtain and run away, as it reads from your words	15:03
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GeneralAntilles	Corsac, VDVsx got a briefing 1 week early.	15:04
* GeneralAntilles isn't really sure what he was supposed to do with that info, though.		15:04
qgil_	Corsac: not even the average Maemo developer working at Nokia knew about details about the project, the option was to wait on community topics until the community could get involved after the launch	15:04
qgil_	Corsac: besides: what do you think the council could have agreed on behalf the whole community, really?	15:04
Corsac	qgil_: yes, and I think (but it's my own opinion) that it'd have been nicer for the community to have a chance to challenge that earlier	15:04
qgil_	Corsac: challenge what?	15:05
Corsac	but I have to admit it's not the kind of think which is fine on a company agenda	15:05
Corsac	qgil_: the move	15:05
Corsac	give opinion, stuff like that	15:05
GeneralAntilles	Corsac, CEO-level stuff here, community is pretty irrelevant. ;)	15:06
Corsac	it's a big move for the community, so if Nokia (and intel, for that matters) wants people to know they are a good citizen for the community, it might not have been the wisest move	15:06
Corsac	GeneralAntilles: yes I agree	15:06
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Corsac	community has to accept what was decided at that level, that's all	15:06
slaine_	community == the peeons	15:07
slaine_	It's a corporate move	15:07
slaine_	Nokia will be movint to Atom based devices	15:07
Corsac	those are _not_ my words :)	15:07
tybollt	yes	15:07
tybollt	slaine++	15:07
slaine_	There was some cross sharing of technology	15:08
Amby	I guess some kind of risk for "losing the Maemo community" were in the Excels somewhere. If you make a decision w/o the community, that needs to be calculated in as a negative effect. But if you make a decision, where you are convinced - why would you consult?	15:08
tybollt	I think people should not misstake corporate shitz for community	15:08
GeneralAntilles	slaine_, let's hope not.	15:08
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GeneralAntilles	Capacitive is one thing, but Atom would just be laughable.	15:08
slaine_	GeneralAntilles: In what regards, moving to Atom ?	15:08
GeneralAntilles	Amby, quite honestly, Nokia's never been worried about retaining community.	15:08
Corsac	tybollt: yes but the thing is, corporate stuff do influence community	15:09
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Corsac	(which is fine, people just have to know that)	15:09
pillar_	qgil_: do you happen to know a nokia contact that would know something about overriding ringtone with custom sound? I am trying to make an app that would say the caller id just like in symbian phones..	15:09
zaheerm	i also get the feeling that nokia are moving away from ti and towards experimenting with other processors such as moorestown/intel	15:09
Amby	GeneralAntilles: based on your assumption then, there was a "cost" of 0 in the cell ;-)	15:09
slaine_	GeneralAntilles: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2010/02/intel-and-nokia-making-more-than-linux.ars	15:10
GeneralAntilles	slaine_, yeah, I know.	15:10
GeneralAntilles	slaine_, it'd be an unfortunate move.	15:10
tybollt	Corsac: It's all smoke and mirrors my friend.	15:10
GeneralAntilles	Say goodbye to battery life.	15:10
slaine_	I can't see how	15:10
GeneralAntilles	slaine_, because Atom isn't usable on a truly mobile device.	15:10
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slaine_	I couldn't really give a xxxx on the cpu, so long as it's performance metrics where right.	15:11
slaine_	Atom now isn't, Atom++ is being targetted there, so we'll have to wait and see	15:11
tybollt	yeah	15:11
GeneralAntilles	slaine_, and Atom isn't going to have performance metrics to match an OMAP in battery life for a long time yet (if ever).	15:11
tybollt	Nokia N910, complete w/ an Intel Core Quad	15:11
tybollt	:S	15:11
slaine_	lol	15:11
zaheerm	also with qualcomm's announcement re: nokia symbain device by end of 2010, it wouldn't surprise me if ti are reconsidering being so involved in symbian too	15:12
qgil_	guys, MeeGo is about getting a pleace in the top mobile platforms	15:12
slaine_	GeneralAntilles: I doesn't have to, it has to be good enough for the mass market	15:12
qgil_	Maemo and Moblin alone would have got much more difficulties getting there	15:12
Amby	qgil_: what you/Nokia could have done better is the Change comms. This is in particular a very weak area of Nok - MeeGo announcement no exception.	15:12
slaine_	Nobody disagrees with that qgil_	15:12
qgil_	if Intel and Nokia would want to sign a contract to cranck products together they could have just done that	15:13
tybollt	qgil_: no	15:13
slaine_	How we got here could have been handled better, perhaps, perhaps not. People are just spinning their collective wheels at the moment speculating	15:13
tybollt	becuase -> lost customers	15:13
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tybollt	instead they blow smoke and put up mirrors	15:13
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slaine_	GeneralAntilles And MeeGo will give Nokia the scope to have OMAP and Atom products with a common software layer	15:14
slaine_	And I think that's the main reason they've decided to pursue this	15:14
qgil_	need to go... but before that	15:15
qgil_	about "making thngs better" personally (in my own work) I find a conflict between "well polished things" and "honesty"	15:16
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qgil_	I will go every time for honesty, even at the expense of making evident that some things are not polished yet	15:16
qgil_	since they need to be poished with you	15:16
qgil_	but not everybody understands honesty equally	15:16
qgil_	so I stopped trying to make everybody happy :)	15:17
qgil_	reality will come	15:17
Amby	qgil_: you can polish your plans and communication - even if many things are not polished.	15:17
qgil_	releases, SDK, documentation...	15:17
qgil_	devices, apps, volumnes	15:17
qgil_	if you are happy with it and want to be involved, good	15:17
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ShadowJK	GeneralAntilles, did you see that benchmark I did where omap3 and atom were neck to neck in work per clock? :-)	15:17
slaine_	qgil_: Take care	15:17
qgil_	if not, well, not good but at least be upset about the reality and not the current FUD	15:17
slaine_	catch you later	15:17
crashanddie	yo qgil_	15:18
GeneralAntilles	ShadowJK, and yet they're not even on the same planet power consumption-wise. ;)	15:18
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qgil_	see you in few hours!	15:18
Amby	ciao	15:18
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ShadowJK	GeneralAntilles, while we're busy making up conspiracy theories about intel and atom, we could also make up conspiracy theories about the "Windows®. Life without Walls™. Nokia recommends Windows 7." banners splattered all over forum.nokia ;-)	15:20
crashanddie	"In a world without gates, we would never have had windows"	15:21
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slaine_	how drole	15:22
GeneralAntilles	ShadowJK, they're just handing Maemo off to the LF so they can switch to WinMob	15:22
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Corsac	ali1234: http://molly.corsac.net/~corsac/meego/Makefile + make -k might interest you	15:36
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ShadowJK	GeneralAntilles, android's shared app market isn't. Half the devices don't have access to it. But it depends alot on where you live, who you bought the phone from, who made the phone, what version it came with, and whether the manufacturer will update the os for the phone made for the place you got it from for the country you're in.. it's a mess really, and all the operators can do is "shrug we've tried to pressure google to give you access to android	15:36
ShadowJK	store, but it isn't exactly easy to “pressure” a giant like google"	15:37
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ali1234	Corsac: nice	15:37
GeneralAntilles	ShadowJK, still, that doesn't invalidate the benefit of a shared market.	15:38
slaine_	Corsac: does it work ?	15:38
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ShadowJK	GeneralAntilles, right	15:41
ShadowJK	GeneralAntilles, I think the idea is that as long as you use QT (or GTK+Clutter?), apps will work on all meego devices	15:41
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Corsac	slaine_: it's currently building, it already failed on antlr for example	15:41
ShadowJK	Let's hope meego has sufficient stuff in the base image to be useful	15:41
Stskeeps	looks like it	15:42
ShadowJK	otherwise it'll be like j2me all over again, where you had to use vendor extensions to get anything useful done	15:42
slaine_	Corsac: packaging error per chance ?	15:42
Corsac	slaine_: be aware that it doesn't bootstrap anything, it just rebuilds everything using moblin repository for build-deps	15:42
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slaine_	I've done similar in the past	15:42
slaine_	too many fail	15:42
Corsac	slaine_: I'll first do a pass on everything and only then look at failures	15:42
ShadowJK	(and, well, almost all j2me implementations on devices were so buggy that they were incompatible anyway if you stuck to standard APIs)	15:42
Corsac	I don't keep failed build logs atm	15:42
slaine_	I had 60+ failures originally	15:42
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ali1234	i had 100+	15:43
slaine_	managed to get those whittled down to about 40	15:43
slaine_	I removed the logs last night, so can't remember exactly	15:43
slaine_	actually, 27 rings a bell	15:43
slaine_	anyway, the point is, the stack fails to properly rebuild	15:44
slaine_	even when using the build command	15:44
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ali1234	yeah, this is extremely annoying	15:48
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pinchartl	hi	16:32
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megabast	slaine_: are you in da place?	16:42
slaine_	yup	16:42
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Amby	eh, concurrent wiki edits	17:20
timeless_mbp	Amby: they work?	17:21
timeless_mbp	or you mean collision detection and failure to support anything remotely resembling useful merging	17:21
timeless_mbp	s/you/do you/	17:21
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: or do you mean collision detection and failure to support anything remotely resembling useful merging	17:21
Amby	timeless_mbp: they work, as in Large Hadron Collider.	17:21
VLJ	lbt I don't know if its a bug or not, but I found Mer 0.17 under virtualbox quite slow, even with enabled hardware acceleration	17:22
VLJ	it seems that clutter is not well supported with virtualbox opengl module	17:22
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slaine_	arjan, you online yet ?	17:26
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thiago	slaine_: it's 7:37 in the US West Coast now	17:37
slaine_	I'm normally in work about then ;)	17:37
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thiago	slaine_: I don't wake up until 8:15 and I usually turn the alarm off once or twice :-P	17:43
slaine_	hehe	17:43
slaine_	I get in early so I can head off early and see my kids	17:43
thiago	unless I hit the Stop button by accident on my N900, then I have to get up	17:43
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thiago	that's the problem with touchscreens	17:44
slaine_	speaking of which, only 45 mins left, woot	17:44
slaine_	yeah, I do that with my iPhone sometimes	17:44
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koupsa	hi every body	18:40
koupsa	git clone git://git.moblin.org/moblin2/moblin-compiz-plugins.git	18:40
koupsa	Initialized empty Git repository in /home/koupsa/moblin-compiz-plugins/.git/	18:40
koupsa	fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly ??? closed ?	18:41
hrw	no, network problem	18:41
hrw	retry few times	18:41
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koupsa	ok thx	18:42
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arjan	moblin has compiz plugins ??	18:43
arjan	that's new	18:43
robsta	actually it's old	18:43
robsta	deprecated	18:43
arjan	ah no it's ancient and dead	18:43
arjan	doubt it'll even compile ;)	18:43
tybollt	compix that's the shit w/ the spining cube and what not?	18:43
arjan	yeah	18:43
koupsa	dead?	18:44
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arjan	koupsa: moblin hasn't even looked at compiz for over 2 years	18:44
tybollt	heh kids at last worked played around w/ that.. they were runing circles around my crusty ol xterm :-\|	18:44
koupsa	arjan oh! pk	18:44
koupsa	ok	18:44
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arjan	compiz was great to show that compositing is there and what pieces of technology it needs	18:45
koupsa	bug "alt+tab" on moblin is boring i hope meego correct that	18:47
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Corsac	<1FFEF31EBAA4F64B80D33027D42977602148B3C1CB@NOK-EUMSG-02.mgdnok.nokia.com>	18:57
Corsac	that scares me a little about packaging practices	18:57
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15SAAGH6X	hey	19:10
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gouverneur	uh nice a channel w/o ops at all...	19:34
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ShadowJK	That's standard on freenode	19:35
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gouverneur	its not a bug its a feature... is this microsoft here?	19:38
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nid0	no, its just how freenode generally operates.	19:41
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GeneralAntilles	gouverneur, there are several ops here.	19:45
GeneralAntilles	gouverneur, they just don't advertise that fact constantly.	19:45
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gouverneur	GeneralAntilles: nevermind was just wondering where because there is no chanserv	19:51
Unksi	gouverneur: there is but thats hidden as well :p	19:51
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gouverneur	nid0: not that often at freenode... well maemo and meego...	19:52
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CosmoHill	i should add this channel to my autojoin list	20:19
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slaine_	arjan, auke, either of you about ?	20:24
auke	I'm here	20:28
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CosmoHill	he's there	20:29
auke	I'm clearly here	20:29
auke	not there	20:29
slaine_	lol	20:29
slaine_	I was hoping I might pick over your delicious brains	20:29
slaine_	regarding my post to moblin dev list earlier	20:30
slaine_	specifically about rebuilding moblin src.rpm files successfully	20:30
slaine_	e.g, if I do, sudo BUILD_DIST=moblin build --repo /home/p4/moblin/releases/2.1/ia32/os --target i586 /home/p4/moblin/releases/2.1/source/tar-1.22-1.6.moblin2.src.rpm	20:31
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slaine_	it failes due to /usr/share/info/dir being unpackaged	20:31
auke	yeah, I'm not sure about that one	20:32
auke	I was hoping Anas or Arjan could reply on it	20:32
auke	but I think they're in a meeting all morning atm	20:32
slaine_	This is common across a lot of moblin source rpms, I even posted about it last year on just a general script that was rebuilding in a moblin chroot	20:32
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slaine_	I figure out that if /sbin or /usr/sbin where in the path, it activated the part of the autoconf tools which created that dir	20:33
slaine_	But the general concensus at the time was that I should be using the build process to make them in a pristine chroot	20:34
slaine_	Needless to say, I was sad when that didn't work either	20:34
lbt	:(	20:34
slaine_	I imagine Arjan and Anas are busy preparing for the meeting in 1.5 hours	20:35
slaine_	kids permitting, I'll be in attendance.	20:35
slaine_	thanks anyway auke	20:35
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slaine_	ok, I'll be back for the meeting	20:40
slaine_	time for dinner now	20:40
slaine_	laters	20:40
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koupsa	slaine_ bon apetit me to	20:40
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Corsac	ali1234: boost takes litteraly ages to build	20:44
mikeleib`	phbbt.. ages	20:44
mikeleib`	openoffice takes ages to build	20:44
mikeleib`	it even includes it's own boost	20:45
Corsac	arg, forgot there was openoffice indeed ><	20:45
Amarant	i bet you guys like gentoo	20:45
Corsac	Amarant: I'm building moblin	20:46
mikeleib`	meh. This channel is about meego. I'm not going to bash other distros here. however deserving	20:46
mikeleib`	Corsac: will you be building oo.o?	20:47
mikeleib`	Corsac: are you using the moblin toolchain/spec to do so?	20:48
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Corsac	mikeleib: I use mock and the .src.rpms found on the repository	20:48
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Corsac	(and yes, at one point I'll be building oo.o)	20:49
Corsac	if I'm not dead before	20:49
mikeleib	I know it works with the moblin toolchain and x86 arch. Deviating from that may give you problems	20:50
mikeleib	FC toolchains should work on x86. other archs are unknown	20:50
Corsac	after building for i386 I'll try that on my touchbook	20:51
Corsac	(which will take ages again)	20:51
Corsac	though before meego is officially meego, i don't really think it'll work, moblin isn't really expected to work on arm indeed	20:51
mikeleib	oo.o is somewhat special	20:52
leinir	Corsac: got an eta? :)	20:52
Corsac	and waiting for initial bootstrap is a better idea	20:52
Corsac	leinir: not at all	20:52
Corsac	leinir: first x86, then we'll see	20:52
leinir	ok :)	20:52
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leinir	Just thought i'd ask :)	20:52
Corsac	leinir: atm I'm just rebuilding all packages blindly, using build-deps from moblin repository	20:52
Corsac	that won't work for arm since there is no arm moblin repository	20:53
mikeleib	I have to say that for building lots of stuff, a cluster of machines is really the way to go	20:53
Corsac	so either the bootstrap is done and I can use either, either I need to do it myself	20:53
Corsac	and tbh I don't think I have the time to take care of that myself	20:53
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VLJ	Votan : I've found this http://git.moblin.org/cgit.cgi/moblin2-jhbuild/tree/README	20:56
leinir	Ah, right :)	20:56
* CosmoHill shakes fist at script kiddies		20:56
VLJ	it should build a proper moblin ui on any distro, however there are lot of dependencies	20:56
Votan	I see, mh	20:56
VLJ	it didnt work for me with ubuntu :/	20:57
Votan	yeh, well i tried that meego image from that site u posted the other day, but it was more pre-alpha than i hoped it to be, so ... i stick to moblin 2.1 for the time beeing :)	20:58
mikeleib	Corsac: if you run into issues with oo.o, let me know. I will at least give it a proper look. I may not be able to devote much time to it (or fix it), but I can look.	20:58
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VLJ	I'd like to try moblin 2.1 :/ but there is no "easy" way to get a nvidia card running it	21:01
amby_	Community meeting is in 1 hour, right?	21:02
VLJ	at least the moblin ui	21:02
VLJ	but it did not work neither under fedora nor mandriva	21:03
rsuplido	amby_, it's at #meego-meeting -- in 1 hr	21:03
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Jaffa	coo, an rsuplido on IRC.	21:04
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rsuplido	heh	21:04
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Corsac	mikeleib: oo.o is a the end of the alphabet so I guess I still have some time :)	21:08
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mikeleib	I know. I'm usually on freenode. If not, you can use msgserv to send me a message	21:10
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Corsac	INFO: Done(sources/boost-1.37.0-3.11.moblin2.src.rpm) Config(moblin) 69 minutes 0 seconds	21:16
Corsac	\o/	21:16
mikeleib	invest in a core i7 or two	21:16
CosmoHill	dual xeon!	21:17
Corsac	thing is, it doesn't seem possible to parallelize easily mock (it locks the chroot) and it doesn't parallelize the build atm	21:17
Corsac	maybe there's a -j somewhere I could activate	21:17
Corsac	though I would gain that much	21:17
Corsac	(it's a core2duo 2.2)	21:17
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mikeleib	use build instead	21:20
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pillar	when is the meeting happening?	21:27
rsuplido	33 mins more ovet at #meego-meeting	21:28
slaxium	in 30 min on #meego-meeting	21:28
pillar	ok	21:28
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CosmoHill	hey DawnFoster	21:56
CosmoHill	I see you're on a mac	21:56
lbt	DawnFoster: #meego-meeting ?	21:56
DawnFoster	yep. Did Adium give me away?	21:56
GeneralAntilles	Web coordination meeting in #meego-meeting in 4 minutes.	21:56
DawnFoster	I'm in #meego-meeting, too	21:57
slaine_	I think everyone is :)	21:58
CosmoHill	what's gonna be talked about?	21:58
CosmoHill	I'm assuming most people will be silent	21:58
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, basically connecting all of the stakeholders in one place for the first time.	21:58
lcuk	until their speaking part comes up	21:58
GeneralAntilles	DawnFoster, random aside, we're discussing Adium for IRC in #maemo. If you haven't already, you might try the yMous theme for group chats. ;) http://www.adiumxtras.com/index.php?a=xtras&xtra_id=5474	21:59
slaine_	here we go, ding ding	22:00
ikke-t1	hi, is the OBS being used as such for meego, or is there meego specific branch of it?	22:00
DawnFoster	GeneralAntilles: Thanks, i'll take a look	22:00
lbt	ikke-t1: it is and kinda	22:00
CosmoHill	is the chat being logged?	22:01
lbt	s/branch/instance/	22:01
lbt	there's no code fork ikke-t1	22:01
ikke-t1	i went to web pages to get if I could download it and give it a run, but don't find much from meego web	22:01
ikke-t1	so it's something still under plannin..?	22:02
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slaine_	build.moblin.org	22:03
lbt	ikke-t1: there's a #meego-meeting happening now - would like to chat l8r though. I do a lot of relevant OBS work	22:03
CosmoHill	is #meego-meeting being logged?	22:03
lbt	yes	22:03
CosmoHill	yay	22:03
slaine_	So behave	22:03
X-Fade	CosmoHill: yes, meeting bot.	22:03
ikke-t1	lbt, ok, talk to you later.	22:04
ikke-t1	thanks	22:04
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lbt	maybe change the subject in there someone? so joiners know about the logging	22:04
* CosmoHill is gonna sit out		22:04
lbt	CosmoHill: sit in and listen :)	22:05
lbt	the agenda is all community and not rpms :)	22:05
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CosmoHill	what have i missed?	22:09
GeneralAntilles	Nothing important	22:09
CosmoHill	sounds like today's lectures	22:10
GeneralAntilles	Discussing services and/or target audience.	22:10
CosmoHill	am I allowed to speak in there?	22:13
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, sure, although make sure it's on-topic and contributing. ;)	22:14
CosmoHill	brb need battery charger	22:14
CosmoHill	damn phone	22:14
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Amby	Texrat: project and process oriented - I really like that, but I already exceeded that 1 sentence limit :)	22:16
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lbt	GeneralAntilles: hi5	22:22
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GeneralAntilles	lbt, I thought we settled the whole developer/contributor thing in 2007. :D	22:22
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CosmoHill	sorry	22:22
CosmoHill	I can spell developer	22:22
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CosmoHill	but struggle with the other	22:23
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, aimed at jeremiah.	22:23
CosmoHill	ah	22:23
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, bugzilla is usually a fair choice	22:24
bergie	GeneralAntilles: you can imagine it was fun to find a semantically correct Finnish word for "contribution" :-)	22:24
* CosmoHill likes getting involed but is also scared		22:25
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lbt	bergie: thingy-that-is-given	22:25
Myrtti	bergie: jumping in, what did you find then? ;-=	22:25
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, just absorb for a bit. ;)	22:25
CosmoHill	I will	22:25
bergie	Myrtti: we settled on "työpanos", a "contribution of effort"	22:26
bergie	Myrtti: this was for association founding papers for a project	22:26
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CosmoHill	who is the chair?	22:31
lbt	te kojo	22:32
th0br0	we should've outlined some meeting rules before :S	22:32
lbt	heh	22:32
GeneralAntilles	th0br0, probably. ;)	22:32
lbt	now we know	22:32
CosmoHill	next topic you say? :p	22:32
GeneralAntilles	Hopefully wont kill anybody, though.	22:32
* lbt considers asking about debs...		22:33
th0br0	GeneralAntilles: sure not, but reading the log might by a pita in the end ;)	22:33
th0br0	don't.do.it.please.lbt :P	22:33
lbt	on the sidebar here... is sub-areas important?	22:35
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Amby	order, order in my meeting room!	22:36
th0br0	^^ Amby	22:36
GeneralAntilles	lbt, quite possibly.	22:38
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* GeneralAntilles 's answer to most stuff right now is "I don't know".		22:38
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CosmoHill	what is SSO?	22:40
Amby	single-sign on	22:40
CosmoHill	-.- damn that as obvious	22:40
Amby	once logged in in one area, you are logged in everywhere	22:40
CosmoHill	I guess we're using git then	22:42
lbt	of course	22:43
th0br0	there is no alternative, is there, CosmoHill? :D	22:43
CosmoHill	hehe	22:43
th0br0	and don't come talking about svn ... :P	22:43
CosmoHill	I use git so infrequently I have to look up the commands	22:44
th0br0	well, there are some git cheat sheets around AFAIR	22:44
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lbt	CosmoHill: simple, use it more	22:45
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Amby	added SSO to http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary#S :)	22:46
CosmoHill	thanks :)	22:46
CosmoHill	oh an OSU	22:46
CosmoHill	and*	22:46
lbt	no-one wants karma ?	22:46
CosmoHill	k,a	22:47
CosmoHill	karma?	22:47
VDVsx	nooooooooooooooooooo :D	22:47
th0br0	i'm against it	22:47
VDVsx	lbt, yes, but direct numbers IMO	22:47
VDVsx	1 bug -> 1 p, 1 post -> 1p ...	22:47
lbt	how can we karma-whore w/o karma?	22:47
th0br0	i think karma-whoring is enough of a reason to be against it	22:48
lbt	VDVsx: nah - the fluid & mind bending algos are part of the fun	22:48
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lbt	with secret -ve karma rules too	22:48
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Amby	I would prefer karma, but it did not make my 3 highest priorities list :)	22:49
* VDVsx makes lbt responsible for the karma algos :D		22:49
lbt	yeah - but all yours are already there..	22:49
lbt	woohoo	22:49
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lbt	-10 if nic =~ /^V/	22:50
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Go to the preferences page, fill in your email and confirm it.	22:50
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, have done that 3 times now.	22:50
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Nice.	22:51
GeneralAntilles	It works once, then the next day I try to use the wiki it tells me I'm not confirmed.	22:51
X-Fade	Ah, some automated copy ;)	22:51
CosmoHill	tekojo: can i ask a question about IRC rules?	22:52
GeneralAntilles	Stupid goddamn wiki	22:52
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, don't pull the chair into the sideline channel is #1. :P	22:52
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VDVsx	eheh	22:52
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CosmoHill	well as far as i know there are no formal rules	22:53
lbt	just common sense	22:53
Amby	lbt: what is that?	22:53
* GeneralAntilles would really like to discuss the Midgard issue before everybody gets set off on Drupal.		22:54
CosmoHill	midgard? drupal?	22:54
GeneralAntilles	CMS	22:54
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lbt	Amby: I'll let you know when I see some	22:54
CosmoHill	ah	22:54
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GeneralAntilles	meego.com uses Drupal because that's what moblin.org was using	22:54
CosmoHill	and then you'll shoot it	22:54
GeneralAntilles	maemo.org is Midgard	22:54
GeneralAntilles	and the much larger community with a big, established infrastructure in place. :P	22:54
bergie	GeneralAntilles: I'd propose using the existing planet and social news implementation, but we can make Midgard use Drupal's user DB	22:54
Amby	lbt: never heard of that thing :-) It's only in fairytales	22:54
GeneralAntilles	bergie, I'd rather just use Midgard.	22:54
bergie	just like now maemo.org's Midgard implementation uses GForge's DB	22:54
bergie	GeneralAntilles: I wouldn't mind that either	22:55
th0br0	midgard is slow.	22:55
JimiDini	+1 for midgard ;)	22:55
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GeneralAntilles	I dislike having that decision forced on us thanks to which sides' web team had more people under NDAs. . . .	22:55
JimiDini	th0br0: not necessarily. new versions are pretty fast	22:55
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JimiDini	th0br0: maemo.org doesn't uses previous generation	22:56
slaine_	GeneralAntilles: more likely they'd already made one 'cause they where told to	22:56
JimiDini	s/doesn't//	22:56
infobot	JimiDini meant: th0br0: maemo.org uses previous generation	22:56
th0br0	ah ok :)	22:56
slaine_	then we had the big reveal	22:56
lbt	th0br0: in here... OBS...	22:56
th0br0	sure lbt :) i was just wondering whether he also wanted that group to talk about packaging policies etc	22:56
Amby	where do we put the community services subgroup wiki pages? ;)	22:57
th0br0	lbt: as in http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group ... if yes, then i'm willed to help	22:57
lbt	that group needs a meeting :)	22:58
th0br0	indeed we doo.	22:58
th0br0	*do	22:58
th0br0	also some mailing list if possible :)	22:58
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timeless_mbp	anaZ: ping (#meego-meeting)	22:59
CosmoHill	doesn't the meeting end soon?	23:00
timeless_mbp	CosmoHill: dunno, duncare	23:00
anaZ	pong	23:00
anaZ	?	23:00
anaZ	is there a meeting?	23:00
anaZ	sorry	23:00
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CosmoHill	/join #meego-meeting	23:00
CosmoHill	hey you use adium too	23:00
Amby	I cannot eidt the Community website meeting anymore	23:02
GeneralAntilles	Amby, it was locked	23:03
Amby	GeneralAntilles: thanks, see it now	23:03
GeneralAntilles	Which just compounds my list of issues with the wiki today. <_<	23:03
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13WAAFQRH	http://thismight.be/offensive/uploads/2010/02/23/image/288459_CSS%20Mess.jpg	23:04
th0br0	lbt: maybe we should have the whole repository group take careo f OBS?	23:04
lbt	anaZ: you missed build ;)	23:04
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lbt	th0br0: yes...	23:04
lbt	slaine_: almost	23:05
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lbt	more as in http://shopper.garage.maemo.org/	23:05
anaZ	lbt: I missed build how/	23:05
slaine_	ta	23:05
anaZ	sorry, I am having difficulties following the discussion	23:05
lbt	anaZ: no real worries - it's a 'community' meeting is all	23:05
lbt	noisy and it'll raise ideas and allow us to identify interested people	23:06
slaine_	looking for the who's who for people to go to for XXX service	23:06
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CosmoHill	anaZ: there are logs...somewhere	23:06
lbt	slaine_: I was updating the wiki but qgil locked it - I guess it was also the agenda :)	23:06
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anaZ	can we have the meeting on the wiki instead? :)	23:07
Amby	qgil: if you could let go of the meeting wiki page?	23:07
anaZ	goes slower	23:07
anaZ	heh	23:07
CosmoHill	didn't we have one	23:07
lbt	Amby he's not in here	23:07
anaZ	so what about the build?	23:08
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anaZ	is there an agenda? items to discuss?	23:08
lbt	anaZ: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_website_meeting_2010_2_24	23:08
slaine_	anaZ: if you're around for a while, I'd like to pick your brains about http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively	23:08
anaZ	oh man, that was a while back	23:09
GeneralAntilles	http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who Somebody mind re-alphabetizing the MeeGo community list?	23:10
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anaZ	but sure, we could even move it to the wiki	23:10
anaZ	actually it was moved to the wiki...	23:10
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: not me, i lost my passwords when i swapped hdd's	23:10
th0br0	does anyone know who the mailinglist admin is?	23:10
timeless_mbp	including my wifi password for my home network :( — tethered to n900	23:10
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th0br0	meego-repository should get some ml of our own asap if possible	23:10
CosmoHill	http://www.adiumxtras.com/	23:10
CosmoHill	something like that for meego projects?	23:10
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slaine_	anaZ: yeah, it was. It doesn't seem to work though. I'm still getting that same unpackaged error for /usr/share/info/dir, same thing I got using my own scripts on a regular moblin install	23:11
timeless_mbp	CosmoHill: is there a way to get black text in adium?	23:11
anaZ	and this needs some enhancements to allow download of needed packages instead of relying on complete repo	23:12
* timeless_mbp hates this stupid blue text		23:12
CosmoHill	black text?	23:12
anaZ	slaine_: it needs a new config file	23:12
GeneralAntilles	timeless_mbp, what theme?	23:12
slaine_	Aha	23:12
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* timeless_mbp wonders what a theme is		23:12
slaine_	anaZ, could you be kind enough to reply to my dev@moblin.org email with the new config attached ?	23:12
* timeless_mbp is using yMous		23:12
Amby	meeting wiki page unlocked	23:13
GeneralAntilles	timeless_mbp, it's black-on-white here.	23:13
GeneralAntilles	Check the Messages settings?	23:13
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timeless_mbp	i have green/blue on white	23:14
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CosmoHill	OCS?	23:16
Amby	Open Content Syndication?	23:17
leinir	Open Collaboration Services	23:17
X-Fade	open collaboration services API	23:17
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CosmoHill	is that on the glossery?	23:17
leinir	No, it's on fd.o :)	23:17
bergie	probably not yet	23:18
Amby	CosmoHill: in a minute :)	23:18
bergie	we provide Maemo Downloads app listing via OCS API so you can show it on your own site or build a better "app store client"	23:18
th0br0	lbt: alright, added a link to the repo group to the meeting	23:18
leinir	http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/open-collaboration-services	23:18
* GeneralAntilles notes jeremiah isn't in a sideline channel so I can harass him. . . .		23:19
X-Fade	CosmoHill: Check appinstaller for maemo 5.	23:19
X-Fade	CosmoHill: This uses the information from maemo.org/downloads/	23:19
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jeremiah	lbt: You can hate on me now :)	23:20
lbt	nah - just wanted to answer but in sidebare	23:20
Amby	http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary#O is updated, if anyone feels to add a longer desciption to OCS	23:21
lbt	s/e//	23:21
infobot	lbt meant: nah - just wantd to answer but in sidebare	23:21
lbt	yes OSI license	23:21
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	23:21
jeremiah	OSI only!	23:21
jeremiah	No DRM	23:21
bergie	Amby: added a bit	23:21
jeremiah	No non-free	23:21
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lbt	but it's the vendor instance of MeeGo I run on	23:21
Amby	bergie: thx	23:21
GeneralAntilles	jeremiah, let's take a particular case of RST38h's emulators.	23:21
jeremiah	Sorry, he has to host externally	23:21
lbt	if I use a vendor API then I still want to be on Meego planet	23:22
CosmoHill	X-Fade: i will	23:22
GeneralAntilles	jeremiah, and that doesn't hurt users?	23:22
lbt	and I may need different versions to use various location APIs	23:22
GeneralAntilles	jeremiah, that's a hardline that harms everybody.	23:22
jeremiah	GeneralAntilles: It may, but look at what they get	23:22
jeremiah	They get real freedom	23:22
* GeneralAntilles groans.		23:22
red	uhm?	23:22
jeremiah	Groan all you want	23:22
GeneralAntilles	Freedom is picking the types of applications they want to use.	23:22
red	yes	23:22
jeremiah	Sure, as long as those freedoms are passed forward	23:23
red	excluding stuff is like playing a nazi (like apple)	23:23
CosmoHill	I got versioned	23:23
jeremiah	Look, the LF cannot host non-OSI licenses	23:23
red	why	23:23
slaine_	but didn't dneary just point out that maemo is non-OSI ?	23:24
CosmoHill	sidebars?	23:24
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thiago_home	Maemo contains some non-OSS packages, yes	23:25
jeremiah	slaine_: he meant the SDK	23:25
jeremiah	But it is not certain that will be included in the repos	23:25
GeneralAntilles	CosmoHill, chatter.	23:25
Amby	MXR?	23:25
jeremiah	Apparently there is a new SDK	23:25
red	I can't see how it would be a good thing for MeeGo to exclude that sort of stuff	23:25
GeneralAntilles	Amby, Maemo/MeeGo/Moblin/Mozilla Cross Reference.	23:25
GeneralAntilles	Amby, mxr.maemo.org	23:25
red	since it makes it harder for users, and users want their apps easily	23:25
thiago_home	red: because there will be OSS equivalents	23:25
red	if something, that has become clear past couple of years	23:25
* CosmoHill feels that his head will explode at some point		23:25
thiago_home	red: and because the idea is that anyone can take MeeGo and put it on a device	23:26
jeremiah	red: Closed apps are easily available anywhere.	23:26
jeremiah	App stores for example	23:26
slaine_	surely you should be able to do, yum groupinstall "MeeGo Desktop Development", to get the SDK's ?	23:26
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GeneralAntilles	jeremiah, so if RST38h wants to distribute freeware emulators, he has to use Ovi Store (hurts him) or host his own 3rd-party repo (hurts users).	23:26
jeremiah	slaine_: That is not how it has been in the past	23:26
* lbt notes jeremiah is a raving freedom fighter.... and I thought I was fairly extreme!		23:26
red	thiago_home: and having such software available makes that impossible how?	23:27
jeremiah	GeneralAntilles: Why on earth does it hurt him to have those apps in the OVI store?	23:27
GeneralAntilles	jeremiah, because he has to carry a non-trivial amount of insurance and needs to pay a fee to do so?	23:27
jeremiah	Is he not a commercial entity?	23:27
GeneralAntilles	Er, pay a fee to distribute through Ovi.	23:27
jeremiah	Doesn't he already have to do this?	23:27
slaine_	jeremiah: that's how it is on Moblin	23:27
red	no	23:28
lbt	CosmoHill: RPM version not important or relevant atm	23:28
GeneralAntilles	That's a specific case anyway.	23:28
jeremiah	slaine_: I hope it will be that way in the future	23:28
CosmoHill	lbt: i think they are	23:28
jeremiah	It will be if I have my way	23:28
thiago_home	red: if the base distribution contains non-OSS, then it can't be redistributed/deployed without constraints	23:28
CosmoHill	RPM5 is not RPM version 5	23:28
thiago_home	red: you'll need to contact each individual copyright holder and ask for permission	23:28
jeremiah	But I have to fight to get stuff released open	23:28
lbt	CosmoHill: yep - but not in this meeting	23:28
CosmoHill	fair enough	23:28
slaine_	Though, Intel did package up a Moblin SDK for non-Moblin dev environments too	23:28
red	hrm	23:29
jeremiah	Yeah - there is tons of closed stuff that will be based on MeeGo	23:29
red	seems like legal jibberjabber is cutting in front of sanity once again :	23:29
red	:)	23:29
jeremiah	That is why it is so important that MeeGo is open	23:29
thiago_home	red: no, it looks perfectly sane	23:29
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thiago_home	a device shipped by a company can contain non-OSS on top of MeeGo	23:30
red	perhaps in your pov, but from an end user and hobbyist programmes pov not so much	23:30
CosmoHill	meego is lgpl?	23:30
thiago_home	and you can obviously install non-OSS as a user	23:30
jeremiah	I think MeeGo will be any OSI approved license	23:30
jeremiah	Not just lgpl	23:30
thiago_home	for example, Ovi Maps is not OSS. And yet you can expect it to be present in whatever Nokia devices Nokia ships based on MeeGo	23:30
thiago_home	however, Ovi Maps will not be in the MeeGo base distribution	23:31
jeremiah	Exactly	23:31
jeremiah	And it should not be	23:31
lbt	indeed	23:31
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lbt	so my MeeGo app can't use ovi maps?	23:32
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lbt	even though that's the map app on the users device?	23:32
jeremiah	Of course it can	23:32
thiago_home	if a company making (say) a cable TV decoder wants to ship Ovi Maps and Ovi Store on their MeeGo-based device, they can contact Nokia and obtain the license	23:32
lbt	so it's a nokia only meego app	23:32
jeremiah	It can pull in the map, use the map	23:32
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CosmoHill	lbt: if i can it would require you to use a meego based nokia	23:32
jeremiah	But the proprietary code cannot be served from the MeeGo repo	23:32
thiago_home	lbt: or there may be a generic Maps API	23:32
CosmoHill	you*	23:32
thiago_home	that allows you to interact with Ovi Maps or another implementation	23:33
lbt	thiago_home: or I'd have versions per subdomain in meego	23:33
lbt	both happen	23:33
jeremiah	You and subdomains	23:33
thiago_home	in any case, this is an example case.	23:33
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lbt	thiago_home: it just happpens to be the one I used in meego-meeting ... :)	23:34
thiago_home	the same STB company could negotiate with Google for a Google Maps version for MeeGo. It doesn't have to be OSS.	23:34
thiago_home	but they can also simply take Marble, which is OSS.	23:35
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thiago_home	the same applies for browsers. Want to ship Opera MeeGo (hypothetical)? Contact Opera.	23:36
thiago_home	otherwise, there are plenty of OSS browsers.	23:36
thiago_home	red: does it make sense now?	23:36
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bfree	maemo and moblin both include non-OSI licensed things :-/ have to wait and see if Meego actually removes them all.	23:40
bfree	Similarly I don't understand the official Vs community (or main Vs universe) ideas, if Meego is a Open project then how is "official" different from "community", surely "official" will be run by the community?	23:40
GeneralAntilles	thiago_home, we're not talking about vendors, we're talking about community developers.	23:40
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thiago_home	people from the community can produce non-OSS, if they want	23:41
thiago_home	and make it available for vendors to pick and choose	23:42
slaine_	So if I create a new map app that uses the OviMaps API, I can't push it to the meego garage ?	23:42
thiago_home	but the point is that the base distro mustn't have those packages	23:42
GeneralAntilles	thiago_home, the issues here is distributing freeware non-free stuff to users through meego.com	23:42
thiago_home	slaine_: depends on whether the API is OSS or not.	23:42
lbt	thiago_home: we're talking community, not base	23:42
GeneralAntilles	thiago_home, obviously, but we aren't discussing distro or vendor stuff. :)	23:42
slaine_	Well, I think the argument was that OviMaps wasn't	23:42
thiago_home	GeneralAntilles: I hadn't thought of freeware non-open	23:42
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GeneralAntilles	thiago_home, a large number of the emulators on Maemo fall under that description.	23:43
th0br0	yay glezos! sticking to the fedora meeting eof's ;)	23:43
thiago_home	but, again, sure, the community can create a non-free repo	23:43
lbt	I think I started the arg with jeremiah - he said no non-OSI. I was on 'subdomains' and dependencies on closed APIS	23:43
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thiago_home	LF probably won't touch it, but the community can organise it	23:43
GeneralAntilles	Define "community"	23:43
lbt	thiago_home: this isn't a non free repo though	23:43
lcuk	but will it be hosted	23:43
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thiago_home	lbt: what is it then?	23:44
lcuk	or will devs of such titles have to host their own repo	23:44
lbt	it's a community dev doing an OSS app that runs on a vendor device and uses a closed API	23:44
slaine_	I've had to host my own repo for rpms that Moblin won't ship	23:44
lbt	slaine_: exactly	23:44
jeremiah	If you're not OSI compatible, you won't be hosted in the official MeeGo repos	23:44
slaine_	How does that fit in now	23:44
lbt	slaine_: you're a community dev	23:44
lcuk	jeremiah, does that count for vendors too?	23:44
GeneralAntilles	slaine_, maemo.org currently distributes non-free stuff.	23:44
jeremiah	lcuk: Yes	23:45
GeneralAntilles	Personally I think meego.com should provide that service for the community, too.	23:45
lbt	lcuk: ignore the troll ;)	23:45
thiago_home	GeneralAntilles: for that I can agree	23:45
lbt	GeneralAntilles: yes	23:45
thiago_home	I mean, nothing wrong in providing the service	23:45
slaine_	So this would be akin to the debian non-free repo ?	23:45
thiago_home	the community organises and maintains the repo	23:45
bfree	lbt: in debian speak that's needs a "contrib" repo as it would be a Free package that depends on non-free	23:45
lbt	we want meego.com to host open apps that use real-life devices	23:45
* CosmoHill seems to have stopped paying attention		23:45
jeremiah	or not	23:45
lbt	bfree: and that was my point about 'subareas'	23:45
ahynes1	can the community themn agree on a standard non-free repo hosted elsewhere?	23:46
lbt	specialist places	23:46
lbt	but 1st class citizens	23:46
jeremiah	ahynes1: Yes - good idea	23:46
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lcuk	fragmentation problem	23:46
lbt	ahynes1: not non-free	23:46
lbt	but non-OSI app	23:46
lcuk	maemo.org community repo was built to outlast enthusiasts	23:46
lcuk	because too many repos come and go	23:46
lbt	which is almost the same	23:46
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GeneralAntilles	lbt, do something Ovi Store-style where your useragent or profile prefs set which software you see?	23:46
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lcuk	the web front end is not the only way to install things surely?	23:47
CosmoHill	web front end?	23:47
thiago_home	I think that's how the Intel AppUp works	23:48
ahynes1	lbt: yeah non-OSI or nonlibre free	23:48
CosmoHill	lcuk: you thinking of installing programs via the terminal?	23:48
lcuk	yes, or via restore tool or anything thats not ust browsing web and supplying user agent	23:48
lbt	sorry - in meeting	23:49
lbt	ahynes1: the app code must be OSI but it can depend on closed API	23:49
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Amby	timeless_mbp: the idea is to provide some kind of backend for simply managing actions (tasks)	23:49
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bobbyd	hi	23:52
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CosmoHill	hello	23:52
bobbyd	I'm an n900 ownner and sometimes developer	23:52
bobbyd	just seeing what's going on	23:52
bobbyd	(and being annoyed that my wireless keyboard seems to double up letters sometimes!)	23:53
ahynes1	bobbyd: iI'm using Xchat from my N900 right now	23:54
bobbyd	I suppose the fact there's an n900 on the front page of the meego website is no indication of whether meego will actually run on the thing :)	23:54
bobbyd	ahynes1: :)	23:54
GeneralAntilles	bobbyd, yeah, I find that rather depressingly hilarious	23:54
CosmoHill	i thought that was an n900	23:54
CosmoHill	it looks nice	23:54
CosmoHill	but costs way to much	23:54
GeneralAntilles	Although MeeGo is more likely to run on the N900 than Maemo 6 was.	23:54
bobbyd	well	23:55
bobbyd	I suppose this is a good thing	23:55
bobbyd	meego will have more weight and will be more likely to be able to compete against Andriod	23:55
bobbyd	Android even :)	23:55
GeneralAntilles	bobbyd, personally I'd like to beat the Nokia business folks with frozen trouts.	23:55
bobbyd	jjust got to see if smashing the two projects together works	23:55
GeneralAntilles	We shall see.	23:56
strike1	so is maemo 6 not going to happen or will meego take over after that	23:56
bobbyd	GeneralAntilles: I don't think Maemo was ever going to rival Andriod, just in terms of awareness and adoption	23:56
bobbyd	apparently maemo 6 will be a version of meego	23:56
GeneralAntilles	strike1, Harmattan/Maemo 6 is now Harmattan/MeeGo	23:56
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GeneralAntilles	Which is mostly a marketing thing.	23:56
strike1	ok that makes sense. jw	23:56
GeneralAntilles	Since the platform isn't going to resemble it in the slightest.	23:56
GeneralAntilles	(basically still Maemo 5)	23:57
ahynes1	i'm pretty optimistic. iMve run some RPM and Fedora ARM stuff on my N900	23:57
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bobbyd	in reality though, if meego is completely open, it should be able to get it to run on the n900	23:57
GeneralAntilles	bobbyd, only problem is what actually makes up that platform.	23:57
bobbyd	which might make the n900 the longest lived phone ever :)	23:58
ahynes1	and sshed from a moblin laptop to my N900	23:58
bobbyd	GeneralAntilles: you mean there might be closed additions for specific devices?	23:58
GeneralAntilles	bobbyd, right	23:58
bobbyd	well	23:58
jeremiah	There most certainly will be	23:58
GeneralAntilles	and certainly Harmattan is composed of closed components	23:58
GeneralAntilles	So MeeGo on N900+1 wont be the same as MeeGo on N900.	23:58
jeremiah	Indeed.	23:58
jeremiah	Better off with Debian Mobile	23:59
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GeneralAntilles	Assuming somebody doesn't beat the stupidity out of the business people.	23:59
ShadowJK	Meego is closer to what Mer wants/wanted to become :-)	23:59
jeremiah	You are an eternal optimist GeneralAntilles! :)	23:59
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lbt	\o/	23:59
GeneralAntilles	jeremiah, Nokia beat THAT out of me a long time ago.	23:59

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