IRC log of #meego for Friday, 2010-02-19

CosmoHillwww.cross-lfs.org00:00
jebbato clarify: I was looking into setting up an OBS server, and when I looked into it, they seemed to make it most convenient to set up a server if you were running opensuse or centos.00:00
slaine_I've been looking to source a Tegra box for use as a SetTopBox, anyone got any pointers ?00:00
jebbaah, CLFS would likely be able to do it, but unlikely to be a choice for everyone....00:01
slaine_this would be for a commercial endeavor00:01
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jebbarunning meego?00:01
CosmoHilljebba: i might give it a go and make a copy of the finished system00:01
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slaine_jebba: given that Novell have worked closely with Intel on this, I'd guess it's running SuSe00:02
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* tripz0 votes it's running moblin00:03
MisterNslaine_: it's officially SUSE now00:04
slaine_I just can't keep up00:04
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MisterNit used to be SuSE, which stood for "Software- und System-Entwicklungsgesellschaft mbH"00:05
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slaine_such a sweet language00:06
villemv_fakelanguage of romance00:07
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Clayi did see zypper in there00:10
Claynot that would guarantee anything00:11
jeremiah_zypper is great00:11
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CosmoHilli wonder how many of the people here are just idle00:14
CosmoHillor asleep00:14
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sp300032800:15
inzn-300:15
fnordianslipi'm always idle00:15
CosmoHillto me a big channel is 40 ~ 50 people00:16
fnordianslipthings seemed to have calmed down alot here over the last few days, compared to announcement day.00:16
MisterNCosmoHill: a big channel is 500+ people :)00:16
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fnordianslipi've been a lurker at maemo for a few years00:17
CosmoHill:o00:17
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MisterNCosmoHill: like #haskell00:17
MisterN662 people...00:17
* CosmoHill faints00:17
CosmoHillwould that be all the people who use that language?00:17
MisterNyeah i guess everybody who uses haskell is in #haskell :D00:18
fnordiansliplol.  wonder if #modula2 has that many00:18
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fnordianslipare/were there many non-Intel people working on moblin?00:19
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MisterNfnordianslip: no.00:20
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CosmoHilldo you think more non-intel and non-nokia people will be working on meego00:20
CosmoHill?00:20
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ali1234it depends whether you count people working on upstream projects00:22
CosmoHillupstream?00:22
ali1234do you count all kernel developers as "working on moblin?" if so then there's a huge number of not intel and nokia people00:22
CosmoHillah00:23
CosmoHillno i wouldn't count them00:23
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_macrosHi chat00:23
CosmoHillhey _macros00:23
ali1234CosmoHill: not only that but intel and nokia developers work on upstream projects like the kernel as well. do you count them as working on moblin?00:25
CosmoHillhmm00:25
fnordianslipyes, i would00:25
ali1234s/moblin/meego/00:25
tripz0i think if there is a compelling release that shows meego as a compelling platform, 3rd party developers may develop for it00:25
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fnordianslipi was thinking mostly of 'outsiders' working on the meego core?00:26
CosmoHillI'm from cross-lfs so this is new to me00:26
da4089tripz0: i agree.  a lot will depend on how meego-1.0 works out.00:26
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fnordianslipthat's the non-Maemo6 meego-1.0 is it?00:27
ali1234i can't see it making a big difference. meego might help Qt adoption but if i was going to write a project using Qt it write it so it ran anywhere, not just meego00:27
ali1234and Qt stands on it's own anyway, i think00:27
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timeless_mbpfor convenience00:27
timeless_mbpi'd happily exclude people working upstream as working on a project00:28
timeless_mbproughly that means, as a Nokian working on Mozilla for Maemo00:28
timeless_mbpi shouldn't be counting as working on Maemo when i work on Mozilla00:28
timeless_mbpi'm working on Maemo when i do community building00:28
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timeless_mbpor manage bugs filed against the Maemo delivered browser00:28
CosmoHillthat is what i meant00:28
fnordianslipor sigh00:29
timeless_mbpbut when i work upstream, i'm working upstream and that shouldn't be counted00:29
CosmoHilli think00:29
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CosmoHilllike if i where to work on mozilla i wouldn;t count that as working on clfs00:29
CosmoHillbut if i was doing a clfs built and had to patch some of the packages, i;d count that as working on clfs00:30
timeless_mbpright00:30
CosmoHilleven tho I;ve written patches for other projects00:30
CosmoHillspeaking of which, i need to fix silo again00:31
_macrosali1234, I do not read the whole chat log, so sorry if i am OT, but from an app developer point of view I think meego is a bit more than Qt: e.g. ui framework, api to access gsm part (maybe based on the shiny Moblin ofono)00:34
ali1234_macros: well, "api to access gsm" = ofono, another upstream project00:34
da4089fnordianslip: i don't know if anyone knows what meego-1.0 really means, but i meant: the degree of non-Nokia/non-Intel direct participation in meego will depend on what is released.  if it's good, i think it will start attracting attention and contributions.00:35
ali1234and, if i want my Qt app to be portable, which i do, i won;t use any meego specific stuff anyway00:35
_macros(And sorry for my chat-writing style' i'm writing with my n900 ;)00:35
CosmoHillor if you do there would be #ifdef in there a lot00:35
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fnordianslipda4089: thanks for clarifying.  lets hope its good :)00:36
fnordianslipI'm on a macbook pro, so you'll have to excuse the odd missing character00:36
_macros(23:38:12) ali1234: and, if i want my Qt app to be portable, which i do, i won;t use any meego specific stuff anyway -- i agree on this00:37
ali1234really though, i don't think there will be anything which is specific to meego00:39
ali1234if there is, and it is actually good, it will be ported to all other distros soon enough00:39
ali1234and therefore will become an upstream project by default00:39
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_macrosI think this is a good thing, isn't it? Probably i did not catch the point00:42
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ali1234yes, it is a good thing00:43
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* CosmoHill slaps his mac00:46
CosmoHillstupid thing is backing up to the hard drive and indexing the hard drive at the same time00:46
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_macros:)00:52
CosmoHillprobably took longer and made it over heat00:53
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CosmoHillintresting, my laptop hung when booting cos of the external hard drive01:19
* auke sighs, heavily01:21
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CosmoHillauke: what's up?01:22
uhsfmy pc also hung because of external hard drive and i solved it with UUIDs in /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst01:22
CosmoHillmine got past grub201:23
CosmoHillhung at the windows part01:23
CosmoHillmy new laptop only has USB 2.001:24
CosmoHillmy powerbook has USB 2.0, FW400 and FW80001:25
CosmoHillnew laptop also has esata but the extnernal hard drive doesn't :(01:25
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aukeCosmoHill: apparently I'm a rude person, and what I say content wise is irrelevant to people. They just hate my "tone"01:25
zerojayWhen you say things the way you do, yes, the content tends to end up becoming irrelevant.01:26
ali1234CosmoHill: mine does that too, hangs at bios sometimes while detecting usb drives01:26
CosmoHillmy new laptop will detect a USB SD card reader, but not the internal one :s01:27
aukesigh, perhaps I should follow one of these intel cultural sensitivity classes01:27
ali1234the internal ones are on pci-e usually01:27
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ali1234which is why it took so long to get them working in linux01:27
CosmoHillali1234: i thought it would be USB01:28
ali1234sometimes they are01:28
aukeali1234: then again, people literally take things out context and turn it around.01:28
ali1234ehy?01:28
CosmoHillhehe01:28
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CosmoHillI just found HP-UNIX on my server01:28
zerojayauke: Look, what it comes down to is the fact that there's a huge community of people who are suddenly told "we're dumping all this stuff we've been doing for 3 years to join those guys there"... so, you know... trying to tone down things in this time of... uncertainty can only help.01:29
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aukeyou're telling the person who's asked twice on the list to tone things down01:29
aukeand come up with answers to everyone asking01:29
zerojayauke: And to be fair, Seb is definitely the kind of guy that does get into trouble for the exact same reasons too.01:30
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aukeno harm in admitting I go too far too. I certainly once in a while do :)01:30
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zerojayauke: There's a lot of emotion involved right now... myself included... so we all just have to try to get past this initial awkward stage intact and see what happens.01:31
arjanzerojay: there's a lot of emotion, and a few loud guys as well ;_)01:31
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arjanand that sets a negative atmosphere a little01:32
zerojayarjan: Yep, sure are.01:32
aukeI'm trying hard to give honest answers01:32
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aukeit hurts if those honest answers are inverted at me back01:32
aukemost of all01:32
arjansometimes it is just best to ignore the loudmouths01:32
arjanzerojay: do you know if the loudest guys are truely maemo guys01:32
* CosmoHill gives auke a hug01:32
aukeahaha01:33
arjanor do we have a bunch of non-maemo loudmoths just kicking a rucus01:33
aukenow I feel funny01:33
zerojayauke: I'm sure you have been trying.01:33
CosmoHill:)01:33
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aukealso, I really think that most people have the same ideas about everything, it's just, not coming out yet. (not that I want a group-hug-session like cosmohill here is promoting)01:33
zerojayarjan: As one of those being loud and negative to this point, I can tell you that yes, most of them are true-blue Maemo users who are upset and hurt at what they've seen.01:33
arjanok.01:34
arjanhere on irc it was not quite that way01:34
arjanwe had some guys here being loud... and later admitting they'd never even used maemo01:34
aukeI personally hate the fact that some people decided a cold shower was a great way to start off a party01:35
zerojayarjan: And I know it's not anyone on the Moblin side purposely trying to cause anyone shit... the lashing out is from being so personally invested in a project and then getting the feeling that it's been yanked out of your hands and given to other people who are making all sorts of decisions without engaging us.01:35
CosmoHillauke: do you mean cold shoulder?01:35
mikeleibI think either can ruin your party experience01:36
aukeI .. do not know what a cold shoulder is01:36
CosmoHilltrue01:36
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aukeit sounds awkward01:36
mikeleibwould make a good name for a band or mixed drink01:36
mikeleibs/a band or//01:36
CosmoHillmikeleib: it is a band01:37
mikeleibzowy01:37
CosmoHillauke: a cold shoulder means to ignore somebody01:37
CosmoHillhttp://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cold%20shoulder01:37
TimRikerGeneralAntilles, you asked me to add infobot here. If folks want my bot in here, I need to hear from a channel op. Note: the bot logs publicly.01:38
mikeleibhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Shoulder01:38
aukeCosmoHill: thanks, never heard of that expression before :)01:38
mikeleibalso album of singer01:38
CosmoHillTimRiker: we already have a bot that logs01:38
CosmoHilli thinmk01:38
arjanzerojay: I'm hoping that the dust will settle a little and that then people also see the positive side01:38
CosmoHillsomething keeps logs01:38
arjanzerojay: and I hope that people realize that on both sides unpopular comprimises were made01:38
aukeI seem to also have a hard time figuring out what the affiliations are on the lists01:39
aukethere are a lot of @debian.org posters for instance01:39
aukeand some random domain names I can't place01:39
ali1234i honestly don't know why all the people who are unhappy don't just join the mer project and make their own thing01:39
zerojayarjan: As someone that is having a hard time with all of it... I know that it will calm down and cooler heads will prevail. Just give it a little time.01:39
TimRikerCosmoHill, so I see. my bot does a lot more than just log. I'm just replying to GeneralAntilles's request though. use whatever bot you like. :)01:39
ali1234i don't know why they didn't do it 6 months ago01:39
ali1234or 3 years01:39
zerojayali1234: Because it's not anywhere near the same thing.01:40
ali1234why?01:40
CosmoHilli use a bot that logs the last thing a user sent01:40
aukeali1234: with moblin I've even promoted that people do that (make public moblin repos) - didn't really happen just jet though01:40
CosmoHillso if you did !seen auke it would give you the time and the last thing he said01:40
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zerojayauke: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who01:40
ali1234zerojay: if maemo and moblin and meego are as open as is always claimed it should not be difficult at all01:40
arjanzerojay: this channel seems to also get a bunch of good dialog going01:40
arjanzerojay: the thing is, now that stuff is announced we can finally have that dialog01:41
ali1234zerojay: if they are not, well, that is a much bigger problem than what people are currently raging about01:41
zerojayali1234: It's not about difficulty. It's the fact that Mer isn't the community at large.01:41
aukezerojay: hmm I should add myself to that wiki :)01:41
ali1234the community seems to be nothing but a distraction01:41
zerojayali1234: Mer, as much as I like the guys working on it, isn't where the excitement is in the Maemo community when new devices are released.01:41
TimRikerCosmoHill, I run apt/ibot/infobot/purl in a bit over a hundred channels on freenode. Sources on the infobot project on SF. as the bot has been around for many years, there are a lot of logs, many factoids, seen information etc. but as I said, use what you like. I was just replying to a memo.01:42
ali1234i thought this was mainly about support for old devices? (the raging i mean)01:42
zerojayali1234: Depends on how you decide to treat it.01:42
zerojayali1234: Nope, not at all.01:42
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, sorry, was stuck in scrollback.01:42
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, jeremiah_, andre_, somebody with op, ping? :P01:42
CosmoHillTimRiker: cool01:42
TimRikerGeneralAntilles, np01:42
zerojayali1234: With the N900 being a possible exception since it's still so new.01:43
ali1234zerojay: what exactly are people unhappy about then?01:43
CosmoHillGeneralAntilles: there are no ops...there are only ninjas01:43
ali1234or is it just the general uncertainty?01:43
GeneralAntillesDamn Stskeeps for setting up a useless access list. :P01:43
CosmoHill!access01:43
wihiwhen the different projects start showing up on meego start showing up and people start getting a part to play in new community i'm guessing everything will move on fast, maem.org community love doing work01:44
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zerojayali1234: Part of it is uncertainty. Part of it is feeling like they've been deeply involved in something for so long to suddenly see it ripped from their hands and delivered to someone else (true or not).01:44
TimRiker/cs access #meego list   will show you the registered ops.01:44
zerojaywihi: Yeah, that's pretty much right.01:44
ali1234zerojay: nothing has been taken away, all the stuff that was available before is still available01:44
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CosmoHillTimRiker: ooo thanks01:44
TimRikerso what is meego? a maemo fork?01:44
CosmoHillmaemo + moblin01:44
CosmoHillmerger of the two projects01:45
zerojayali1234: The community has no/little say or involvement at this point.01:45
TimRikercool. something working now? all open source? targeting phones or just netbooks?01:45
zerojayali1234: And you might say that's a good thing, but...01:45
CosmoHillor "make love" as someone put it (that made me shudder)01:45
tripz0TimRiker, both01:45
ali1234zerojay: i was just about to say that actually, given the current display of what the community is like01:46
ShadowJKali1234, funny you should mention Mer, in many ways I thought/think Meego obsoletes Mer in a good way01:46
arjanzerojay: you mean 'the part of the community that isn't inside nokia'01:46
tripz0TimRiker, it will target phones and netbooks.01:46
TimRikercool. once I have a few more of my phones available I'd like to help get it running there too. :) http://saygus.com/vphone01:46
ali1234zerojay: but more to the point, how is that different from before? did the community have a say in the /opt mess?01:46
arjanzerojay: since clearly part of the community has been involved, just the inside-nokia part01:46
CosmoHillmaybe tablet pcs too01:46
zerojayali1234: Don't judge the community based on the emotional reaction to... well... losing everything.01:46
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, interactive TVs, media phones, and cars, too.01:46
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zerojayarjan: I wouldn't call that anywhere near "part of the community", really.01:47
CosmoHillGeneralAntilles: basically embedded things with a gui?01:47
arjanI'm not all that familiar with the details of how maemo worked01:47
arjanso can't really judge that01:47
zerojayarjan: And no, we didn't get a say about the /opt mess either and man, that was annoying.01:47
jku_zerojay, why is that?01:47
GeneralAntilleszerojay, well, sort of.01:47
GeneralAntilleszerojay, we got a big say in the specifics of the implementation.01:47
zerojayjku_: There's a lot more to the maemo community than just Nokians.01:47
zerojayGeneralAntilles: And it appears we aren't anymore.01:47
GeneralAntilleszerojay, unfortunately Nokia seemed to have realized it was an issue too late for any serious architecting.01:48
ShadowJKali1234, I guess you didn't see the video where maemo.org people ("outside of nokia") stood with maemo ("inside nokia") people on the same stage and talked about the space issue on the pre-produciton betas and promised they'd work out something better than the situation on Maemo4 :-)01:48
zerojayTherefore people are upset.01:48
TimRikeris any more of maemo available as open source now? ie: the video calling app etc?01:48
jku_zerojay, I understood you said they aren't a part of the community...01:48
ali1234ShadowJK: it should make the idea of Mer easier to bring about, but the idea of a true community distro which is outside of the reach of commercial interests will never be obsolete01:48
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, yes, there's more open source stuff in Maemo than there used to be.01:48
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, and even more with it merging with Moblin.01:48
zerojayali1234: Anyways, just give it some time to let stuff settle down a bit. When things are a little more mature, you'll see what the community can really do in a positive manner.01:48
zerojayjku_: Nokians are definitely a part of the Maemo community... but they are a small portion of the overall community at large.01:49
arjanonce we can talk about code and cool technical stuff maybe things will settle down01:49
arjanI can talk about some of the cool stuff for PC like things we're doing01:49
zerojayYes, things definitely will.01:49
ShadowJKarjan, when maemo people say "community", I think it has a heavy emphasis on "user community", but obviously third party developers (as in apps) are represented in that too..01:49
arjan(and yes, being able to run the same code on your laptop IS cool)01:49
zerojayShadowJK: Yep.01:50
lcukarjan, that was the idea anyway01:50
lcukqt is everywhere01:50
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, since all of our useless European ops seem to have wandered off, can I have somebody poke you later so you don't need to wait around? ;)01:50
arjanso.. what you'll see in our release in terms of new tech that other linux doesnt' do yet....01:50
arjan(and we have the code already)01:51
arjanwe use syslinux as bootloader on x86, with native resolution splash screen01:51
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arjanwe'll use the new btrfs filesystem.. which has built in compression, can do snapshots (so you can so 'restore to factory' by just wiping the snapshot) etc01:51
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arjanit'll boot fast ;-)01:51
zerojayThose of you who haven't already done so... go ahead and add yourself to this: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who01:51
ShadowJKarjan, how is btrfs stability these days?01:52
arjanwe have it in daily builds since september01:52
arjanwe have no open bugs01:52
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arjanit's actually rather rock solid for us01:52
tripz0arjan, are you talking about what will be installed on handsets or netbooks?01:52
arjanthis is teh x86 part01:52
arjanon handsets you have an interesting thing01:52
ShadowJKAh, last time I tried it on an ARM device I got a Out of space error at 50% full, followed by kernel OOPS :D01:52
arjansince you may have "raw flash" not "block device flash"01:52
arjanShadowJK: the diskspace thing got solevd in the .32 kernel01:53
arjanthat was the only really big issue that was left01:53
ShadowJKah, nice, I should try it again. nilfs2 is chewing up the write cycles on my sheevaplug :D01:53
arjanraw flash --> need a different filesystem type01:53
mikeleibMTD to the rescue01:53
ShadowJKubifs is really good here I think, does compression too01:53
arjanyeah on raw flash, ubifs seems to be the winner01:54
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arjanno argument01:54
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ShadowJKmikeleib, I would really not want to see block emulation used when you have the *luxury* of having raw flash01:54
jku_arjan, are we exposing the snapshot stuff in any way?01:54
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arjanjku_: in the first iteration not too much01:54
tripz0ShadowJK, does the sheeva have raw flash?  ubifs works good on mine01:54
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ShadowJKtripz0, Yeah I'm not using it though01:54
tripz0sd?01:54
arjanShadowJK: I suspect reality will be that for many things you won't see the raw flash01:54
ShadowJKarjan, yeah01:55
ShadowJKtripz0, current running off of 2 USB flash keys01:55
arjanthat's more a component supplier reality than a software influenced one01:55
mikeleibheh. luxury01:55
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ShadowJKmikeleib, the FTL in SD/emmc type things *really* suck01:55
arjanShadowJK: the good news is that btrfs is awesome if your FTL sucks01:56
ShadowJKbtrfs atleast used to have a "ssd" mode, where ssd really meant "cheap ssd"01:56
arjandue to the copy-on-write semantics01:56
mikeleibShadowJK: I'm not arguing.  I just find raw flash as a luxury humours01:56
CosmoHilli have a question, if my BIOS doesn't allow be to boot to my internal SD card reader, would grub2?01:56
mikeleibs/humours/humorous/01:57
arjanCosmoHill: o01:57
arjanCosmoHill: (and why on earth grub2... shudder)01:57
arjanno01:57
ali1234CosmoHill: probably not, no01:57
tripz0lol01:57
CosmoHillcos grub1 won't combine on 64bit01:57
ShadowJKmikeleib, ah it's luxury because you can do FTL in software and not have to endure the braindead ftl of sd01:57
ali1234CosmoHill: again, this is because it is a PCI device, not a bios disk like you would get from usb devices with bios emulation01:58
aukehaha yeah grub1 on pure 64-bit is painful01:58
CosmoHilldamn laptop makers01:58
mikeleibindeed.. FTL on sd is really poor01:58
ShadowJKwhere 4k writes gets translated into 256k read-modify-write cycle01:58
CosmoHillit's actually EFI instead of a BIOS01:58
ali1234dunno then. but afaik grub doesn't support mmc card slots directly which would be required01:59
CosmoHillit's not a mac laptop01:59
ShadowJKOn N900 where you have extra apps installed onto the emmc, there is very noticeable increased UI latency due to the increased paging latency when for example you have gpodder downloading a postcast to the emmc at the same time01:59
ShadowJK(fun factoid: N900 comes with a default /proc/sys/vm/swappiness of 100) :D02:00
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arjanwe do the same thing to swappiness02:00
arjanneed to02:00
CosmoHillI'm off to bed, night nighht02:01
arjansucks too much otherwise02:01
ShadowJKBump it to 100 you mean?02:01
arjanyeah basically let it not swap unless02:01
CosmoHill100 means swap like crazy right?02:01
arjaneh forgot the direction02:01
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arjanwe set it to the one where it means "almost never swap"02:01
ShadowJKThe previous maemo devices came with swappiness of 102:01
CosmoHillah kk02:01
CosmoHillcyas02:01
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tripz0arjan, so brtfs on an ssd with compression would be snappier booting than say ext4 or nilfs2?02:02
arjantripz0: I think so02:02
arjanespecially on rotating disk, btrfs kicks ass02:02
arjanon ssd... the difference is a bit less02:02
aukecpu accelerated decompression might add another boost02:02
ShadowJKin the context of mobile we're unlikely to see SSDs for many years I'd think?02:02
arjandecompression tends to be fast-ish02:02
arjanit's the compression side that is cpu intensive02:03
ShadowJKif by "SSD" we mean the noncrap ones like Intel and indilinx02:03
* tripz0 wonders if atom has optimizations for that...02:03
arjanShadowJK: well an SSD is just a flash thing...02:03
arjantripz0: there's some atom sse code for zlib and stuff02:03
arjanbut decompress is bloody fast already, it's hard to get more than 10% on that02:03
arjan(just as a side note, I spent a day last week looking at zlib performance ;-) )02:04
ShadowJKtripz0, I suspect that for booting ext4 and btrfs will beat nilfs2. While reading I think nilfs2 by design ends up seeking all over the place (yeah it's flash, but mmc command overhead and so on...)02:04
arjanbtrfs has some really nice properties02:04
arjanlike02:04
mikeleibsnapshots02:04
arjanfor small files... the inode, dentry and the data are next to eachother02:04
ShadowJKStuff like nilfs2 and LogFS seem designed to avoid the achilles heel of crap-SD: random writes02:04
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arjanoften in the same block02:04
arjanso with one IO you get all three essential parts of using a file into memory02:05
arjanrather than three ios (even if you don't have seeks)02:05
arjanand if you look at your filesystem.. there's an aweful high amount of small files around02:05
tripz0ShadowJK, any idea when nilfs2 will fix the write everything a bazillion times annoyance?02:05
ShadowJKtripz0, no idea :)02:05
mikeleibIIRC, reiser could stuff small files into the inode02:05
ShadowJKMaybe if I had less than 80% fill it'd do less of it02:05
ShadowJKnot sure02:06
mikeleibBut, in a power outage, it ate my ld.so.conf (a small file)02:06
arjanmikeleib: yeah it did that kinda as well. Chris Mason did a lot of work on reiserfs... the good bits made it into btrfs ;-)02:06
tripz0ooo02:06
mikeleibI switches to JFS after that02:06
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ShadowJKarjan, I remember btrfs had this mode where it releaxed on-disk placement at write time, favouring sequential writing instead of placing it so that reads would be sequential?02:06
TimRikermikeleib, you used reiser and small in the same sentence. wow.02:06
arjanShadowJK: well... it kinda does it smart so that you get both02:07
ShadowJKhm02:07
arjanShadowJK: it has an internal online defragmenter02:07
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ShadowJKwhat :)02:07
arjanso as long as you have enough free space.. you can get sequential writes in a way where reads still don't suck02:07
TimRikerGeneralAntilles, ok, I'm around, but I'm lagging while working.02:08
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, awesome, thanks!02:08
ShadowJKDoes this thing run in the background, require user/admin poking, or integral part of how btrfs operates?02:08
arjanwe have a guy looking at seeing if we can tweak btrfs so that it sort of is aware that it's on a cheap flash thing02:08
ShadowJKawesome :)02:08
arjanthe defragger triggers on admin kind of things, but also if things get too bad02:08
arjanthe real intereting thing, and that does not exist yet, is that in principle the btrfs architecture can deal with having both fast and slow flash02:09
arjansay 64Gb of slow cheap flash02:09
arjanand 512Mb of fast expensive flash02:09
arjanand then you can make it put all the "hot" data on the fast flash automatic02:09
ShadowJKI get the impression that the idea for Maemo6 was to run everything off of emmc, but I can tell on N900 already that it will suck hard with ext302:09
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arjanhaving your big mp3s on cheap flash, but all the stuff used all the time on fast flash... that's quite compelling02:10
lcukarjan, multiple speed data has been around for ages and ages02:10
arjanlcuk: it has02:10
arjanlcuk: and now using it right is actually getting close ;-)02:10
arjanI know EMC does it all the time02:10
lcukondie cache level 2,3 memory, drive caches, speedboost (or whatever MS called it)02:11
lcuktheres all sorts of combinations02:11
arjanoh absolutely02:11
ShadowJKYou know, benchmarks of the raw nand on the N900 and of the emmc actually show the emmc kicks the nand's ass in sequential write and read performance..  What makes the raw nand faster is ubifs vs ext3/vfat on stupid-hw-FTL :D02:11
lcukShadowJK, wheres the benchies?02:11
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arjanShadowJK: makes me wonder how btrfs would do02:12
arjanvfat is gonna suck no matter which way you spin it02:12
ShadowJKit was in one of those giant "omg dude where's fdisk I'm going to magically make the / partition span two devices and fix all the problems and create world peace like yeah unicorns"-threads on talk.maemo.org02:12
ShadowJKvfat vs ext3 benchmark results on sd mostly inspires one to make a facepalm gesture02:14
DocScrutinizerhi TimRiker  :-)02:14
arjanvfat is the worst format for cheap FTL02:14
arjanext3 is a not too distant second ;)02:14
ShadowJKbut the cheap FTL's were designed to support vfat weren't they? ;-)02:14
* TimRiker smiles02:15
arjanShadowJK: if cheap FTL was designed then it'd not be cheap.02:15
arjanit's more "slapped together and then puked on until the marketing people could sell it"02:15
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ShadowJKI thought it was Sony or Olympus or someone equally, um, short sighted that made it ages ago, and hten everyone else silently copied it ever since...02:16
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DocScrutinizer~praise Father Tim02:18
DocScrutinizer:-(02:19
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GeneralAntillesOh, look, an op.02:19
DocScrutinizerwooow02:19
GeneralAntillesdirkhh/arjan, mind if we get Infobot in here?02:19
DocScrutinizer/invite infobot02:19
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uhsfit really sucks that the channel is now divided in two02:20
DocScrutinizeryup02:20
simula_the channel is divided in two?02:21
ali1234you mean three right?02:21
simula_heh02:21
uhsfthe maemon channel is now divided in two02:21
mikeleib?netsplit?02:21
uhsfi don't know if there is or was a moblin channel02:22
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uhsfnot a netsplit, intel nokia megacorp split02:23
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GeneralAntillesuhsf, my channel list is always increasing.02:23
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mikeleibmy IRC client lets me join lots of channels02:23
uhsfi'd like mine to stay low02:23
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DocScrutinizerI need a better multicore for my brain02:24
uhsfmaybe i will be here one day and on maemo the next day and alternatively02:25
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DocScrutinizertaskswitching overhead is higher than payload02:25
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DocScrutinizerOMG what a cloak02:29
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DocScrutinizerStskeeps: infobot?02:31
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ShadowJKlooking at meego's who's who wiki... it must be really confusing for someone not familiar with maemo... the sortof multi-tiered nokia<->maemo<->maemo.org structure02:38
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GAN900Our power is in our obfuscation?02:39
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zerojayShadowJK: We are borg.02:42
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ShadowJKnot quite02:42
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ShadowJKexaggering a bit, there's the "inside nokia's walls" people that are locked in a basement for 12 months coding, the people paid to maintain the maemo.org website and associated services, the userbase of novice users, powerusers, "hackers", "apps" developers and so on, and the council elected by the userbase to represent them to bang on the gates of nokia yelling "users need more than 40 Megs to install apps!" and such :)02:48
zerojayYeah, exactly.02:48
zerojayBorg.02:48
zerojay;)02:49
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lpotterwe are not borg. we are norg. or morg02:50
ShadowJKI just noticed the complete absence of "inside nokia's walls"-people on meego's who's who wiki article ;)02:51
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ShadowJKWell I guess qgil should be counted, he's both :)02:51
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lpotterthere are lots of both not listed there02:52
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, yeah, I think that'll be a slower transition for Nokia.02:54
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GeneralAntillesJudging by crashanddie's new thread I can see I missed some fun on MeeGo-dev.02:57
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timeless_mbpShadowJK: hey, i'm in that article, aren't i?02:59
GeneralAntillestimeless_mbp, you don't count.02:59
timeless_mbpthanks :)02:59
GeneralAntillesYou know what I mean. :P03:00
ShadowJKtimeless_mbp, I must've missed it03:00
timeless_mbpShadowJK: i'm the last line of the page :)03:00
timeless_mbpwhile i'm not counting, can someone help me w/ apache? :)03:00
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* timeless_mbp grumbles03:02
timeless_mbpthe stupid meego wiki site hates me03:03
timeless_mbpwhy can't i edit http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who ?03:03
tripz0arjan, random question for you, why doesn't moblin use tuxonice?03:03
tripz0doh! he probably went home03:04
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lpottertimeless_mbp: are you logged in?03:04
timeless_mbplpotter: i seem to be half logged in03:04
timeless_mbpi'm logged into meego.com03:04
timeless_mbpbut not wiki.meego.com03:04
timeless_mbpand the login link on wiki.meego.com doesn't work03:04
timeless_mbpwhich is stupid03:04
timeless_mbpinstead i have to log out03:04
timeless_mbpand then log in which takes me to the meego.com login page (which has a universal login option) instead of the wiki native login page03:05
lpotterwhat is a "MeeGo developer"?03:05
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ShadowJKis meego.org all same user/pass or does it copy maemo.org's silly different user/pass for everything? :)03:06
timeless_mbpa piece of vaporwear03:06
* arjan is still here03:06
arjantripz0: why would it?03:06
arjansuspend to disk sucks03:06
arjanreally03:06
arjanwe can boot faster than it takes to resume03:06
HydroxideShadowJK: I think you want meego.com - meego.org seems unrelated :)03:06
arjan(and tuxonice is a royal pain patch)03:07
ShadowJKoops03:07
tripz0arjan, it seems like resuming to a given state would be useful on netbooks and even automotive applications03:07
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Hydroxidejimmy@rogue:~$ whois meego.org | egrep -i 'registrant (name|country)'03:07
HydroxideRegistrant Name:sun alex03:07
HydroxideRegistrant Country:CN03:07
Hydroxideheh03:07
ShadowJKthrow N900 completely offline and it idles for days, the only use for suspend to ram would be to hotswap... coldswap... uh, lukewarm-swap the battery :D03:08
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arjantripz0: but tux on ice isn't that ;-(03:08
arjanit's a massively invasive patch which is a royal pain03:08
arjanI wish the guy would get his improvements upstream03:08
HydroxideI'm rather surprised that intel+nokia chose the name meego without securing .com + .org + .net, but *shrug* maybe that conventional wisdom is less important than rumored03:08
timeless_mbpHydroxide: conventional wisdom is nonexistent here up north03:09
Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: and out west too?03:09
rwhitbymeego.me was available last time I looked to03:09
timeless_mbpas for why the new world part of the group failed to do the job03:09
ShadowJKI think it's extinct03:09
* timeless_mbp shrugs03:09
Hydroxidethey did get .net though03:10
HydroxideLF I mean, along with .com03:10
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: suspend-to-ram for swapping bat? don't see that03:11
ShadowJKoops, of course I meant suspend to disk03:11
arjanlinux has been trying s-t-d for.. years03:12
arjanand frankly, it sucks03:12
arjanno offence to the people working on it, but it does03:12
arjan(but it sucks on windows a well to be honest)03:12
DocScrutinizerwe are morg. resistance is futile (if <0.1 Ohm)03:12
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ShadowJKit mostly works on my fedora install, and that's even with the nvidia binary blob03:14
timeless_mbparjan: what does osx do?03:14
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ShadowJK(but sometimes it takes half an hour to suspend to disk)03:14
simula_heh03:15
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arjanShadowJK: we boot in 5 seconds... isn't half an hour excessive ? ;)03:15
arjantimeless_mbp: my mac mini seems to be kinda odd in that respect03:15
Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: also just took a look at the US trademark filings related to meego - happily there's no other live trademark for "MEEGO" exactly besides LF's filing, but look at this registered trademark for "MEEGOS": http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4008:d7qgo0.2.103:16
timeless_mbpHydroxide: meegos is funny03:16
* mikeleib flees03:16
timeless_mbpthe first intro emails for meego told people to sign up for accounts03:16
timeless_mbpthe address we were given was to meegos :)03:16
arjanShadowJK: don't get me wrong, I can see use cases for suspend to disk03:16
ShadowJKarjan, well I'm talking about workstation here.. I like keeping my 25 xterms open and on the desktop and position they were when I stopped using the computer for the day :-)03:17
arjanShadowJK: but I'm sad it sucks so much as experience03:17
arjanShadowJK: I love Konsole.. it has good session management ;-)03:17
arjanbut sure03:17
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DocScrutinizerAmeego!!03:17
ShadowJKFor a netbook (which I don't own) I'm not sure I'd find a use fot suspend to disk either03:17
timeless_mbparjan: vbox has good session management :)03:17
Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: it's news to me - and wow, actually the meegos people might have a valid claim in the relevant trademark class to the term 'meego' as well - they use 'meego' as the singular for 'meegos'. and owch03:18
Hydroxides/ and owch//03:18
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ShadowJKI switched to plain xterm after KDE4 came and konsole had acquired a few crashy bugs :-)03:18
timeless_mbpHydroxide: i would not shed one tear if they filed, fought, and won :)03:18
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Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: it's not an issue I have a role in, which means I can just grab the popcorn and watch amusedly :) I do hope the product itself succeeds, but they really should have done a bit more research regarding the name, even aside from the availability of "MeeGo Pee Now" jokes :)03:19
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timeless_mbpHydroxide: get some extra popcorn for me :)03:19
Hydroxidehehe03:20
arjanHydroxide: you have no idea how much research was done on names03:20
arjanbut there seems to be a rule03:20
arjanthe more research is done on names, the more bland and sucky they get03:20
timeless_mbpto be fair. mozilla failed on phoenix and firebird03:20
Hydroxidearjan: "if there is no conflicting claim to the name, eliminate it from consideration"?03:20
timeless_mbparjan: not fair03:20
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Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: yes, mozilla did fail a couple of times - and the same mistakes are being made 5-10 years later by multiple much larger companies?!03:21
DocScrutinizerMeeToo03:21
koupsa(a concour and vote for the name of meego)03:21
timeless_mbpHydroxide: bigger companies are bigger03:21
ShadowJKLast time I had to pick a name, I wrote a little program to generate consonant,vowel sequences, and picked a sequence from the stream that looked vaguely pronouncible03:21
timeless_mbpwhy should they worry about smaller things? :)03:21
Hydroxideheh03:22
arjantimeless_mbp: to be honest I'm surprised anything came out. many laywers from 2 big companies, AND their branding people in a  room, and get agreement?03:22
timeless_mbp~always look on the light side of life~03:22
* timeless_mbp wonders if anyone recognizes that corruption03:23
Hydroxidearjan: and ALL of them missed both the trademark and .org domain name issues? ...hence the amused popcorn-munching :)03:23
Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: I do. monty python's life of brian :)03:23
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* timeless_mbp slaps Hydroxide 03:23
timeless_mbp"no"03:23
DocScrutinizerremember "Elite" of Bell&Braben? The planets' names were machine generated by carefully selected algo not to collide with any real world names03:23
ShadowJKNext time you tie up the brandin people and hire terry gilliam03:23
Hydroxidetimeless_mbp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Always_Look_on_the_Bright_Side_of_Life03:24
* arjan decides it's a good time to go home03:24
Hydroxidearjan: haha :)03:24
timeless_mbpHydroxide: alright03:24
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DocScrutinizerhmm, OM sysop is "roh AT central services" ;-P03:31
DocScrutinizerwhere's your 27B/603:32
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koupsag night meego'ers04:59
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ptlLOL06:19
ptlsamsung just released a new linux-based mobile OS06:20
ptlrofl06:20
ptlBADA06:20
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uhsfsamsung really should have chosen MeeGo. this bada is a very dumb move by samsung06:25
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Bliceuhsf: why would someone choose meego right now when A.) there is no code, and B.) there is still much community disgruntlment over little things like package managment06:29
Blice?06:30
uhsfsamsung should have either waited until the second half of the year to release a MeeGo device or choose maemo as it is now.06:33
ptlI am curious. What package management system is used by bada?06:33
ptlBlice: Samsung didn't know, so it should have used maemo or moblin06:33
ptlanother OS on the market is not going to survive06:33
ptlit might have its technical merits, but as we know that's not enough06:34
BliceI for one welcome our diverse corporate backed mobile linux distros06:34
uhsfanother linux based mobile os over android, webos and maemo right now is one too many. bada will obviously fail by lack of community06:34
Bliceyou don't need community to succeed06:35
uhsfin the linux world i think yes06:35
Blicethis is about phones06:35
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Blicebesides, isn't samsung a nokia competitor?06:37
uhsfanyway it divides the coding efforts so i don't welcome bada06:37
Blicewhy would they want to work together?06:37
ptliPhone has a strong community, if it's a completely different community from that of linux users.06:37
ptlI can't say if community is really necessary, but it's obvious that it helps a lot.06:37
ptlI am reading some stuff about bada and it is obvious that Samsung doesn't get it and it's trying a top-down approach, retaining control everywhere.06:38
ptlI think that it's a clear sign: it will fail.06:38
BliceI think more mobile OSes is good, regardless. I think it's good because there is still room for A LOT of mobile GUI innovation06:39
Bliceand competition will speed that up06:39
uhsfthat's an opinion about competition then. i'm against competition06:40
Bliceyou prefer a monopoly?06:40
uhsfi prefer uniting efforts06:40
BliceI suppose you're one of those people that think there are too many linux distros?06:40
ptlactually, not... because of software patents.06:40
ptlevery platform patents some stuff and none of them use all the good innovations.06:41
Bliceptl: It still forces the other competition to make something even more innovative in order to compete06:41
Bliceits good for the market in general, patents or not06:41
ptlAndroid is still crippled by Apple's patent on zoom with two fingers on capacitive screen.06:41
uhsfyes, too many distros, useless gtk/qt duality, etc06:42
ptlBlice: some stuff just can't be invented by pressure, and it seems to me that some good ideas can't simply be overthrown.06:42
ali1234if you don't want your coding efforts to go to waste then only contribute to upstream projects that you use, simple06:42
BliceI think the multitasking on bada is nice.06:43
Bliceand lots of cool widgets06:44
ptldid you see it?06:44
ptlI just saw some youtube videos06:44
ptlI can't make an opinion06:44
Blicehttp://www.engadget.com/2010/02/14/samsung-wave-first-hands-on-bada-packed-and-super-fast/06:44
ptlI saw that06:44
BliceJust judging from those videos06:45
ptlcouldn't infer that information from that article06:45
Blicefrom the videos06:45
ptlbut also it has a 1 GHz processor and more than 512 MB RAM06:45
BliceI'm excited about people thinking of new ways to multitask on a small screen06:45
ptlit's easy to have good multitasking when you have that firepower06:45
BliceI hope that someday we get a really intuitive way to do that so that it can actually be useful on the desktop aswell06:46
Bliceand yeah, it has good hardware. processors will keep improving06:46
ptlwhich is bad news.06:48
ptlMoore's law all over again.06:48
ptlApart from changing our computers every two years, we'll have to change our mobiles too.06:48
ali1234don't we already have to do that?06:48
ptlBut it seems to be speeding up...06:48
GeneralAntillesptl, snapdragon isn't as fast as the 1GHz might lead you to believe. :)06:49
Bliceptl: just because something better exists doesn't mean you need to get a new phone06:49
BliceI am still on a p4 with 128mb ram desktop, I'm doing okay06:49
ali1234at least buy some more ram for it06:50
BliceI don't really need it06:50
Blicefirefox hogs sometimes but it's not so bad06:50
ali1234you run firefox in 128mb? now you're making stuff up :)06:50
ptlp4 with 128 mb? My cellphone has more RAM than your computer?06:50
ali1234do you run firefox 1 or something?06:51
microlithwow06:51
ali1234because there is no way you will get decent performance out of a recent version with that little ram06:51
microlithI haven't had 128MB since... 200106:51
Bliceali1234: I try to run midori as much as I can but sometimes it doesn't cut it.06:52
Blicefirefox uses around 50mb ram unless I'm doing some flash stuff06:52
ali1234right now my firefox is using 178mb phys / 658mb virtual ram06:52
Blicewow06:52
ali1234and i only have one window open06:52
ali1234granted i am using 64 bit06:53
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ali1234i'm currently using 77% of my 4GB of ram06:54
* microlith salutes the moblin website for maintaining 1.5mbyte/s06:54
ali1234708MB of that is used by xorg, because the nvidia binary driver is leaky as a leaky thing06:54
ali1234i'm also using 6.9GB of swap06:54
Blicemy netbook has a bit more ram06:55
ali1234of which 6805MB is used by xorg, same reason06:55
Blicemy xorg uses 12mb, but its not stock06:55
Bliceand im using vesa, lol06:55
ptlmine is using 500 phy / 1050 virtual06:55
ali1234i am quite annoyed by this actually06:56
Blice12mb for xorg, 4mb for openbox06:56
ptlI am not, I open so many tabs in firefox I can understand its glutony.06:56
ali1234i am annoyed by xorg using 6.9GB of swap for no reason06:57
ptlI must have about 80 tabs by now06:57
ptlI keep them open because I think one day I'll read the tabs and close them06:57
ptllike some short-term bookmarks06:57
Bliceali1234: are you sure that isn't your video card's memory?06:57
ali1234Blice: 6.9GB video card?06:57
ali1234where do i get one of those?06:57
Bliceoh, gb06:58
Blicewow06:58
Blicewhat kind of monster xorg are you using?06:58
ali1234the one with ubuntu06:58
ali1234the problem is the nvidia driver06:58
Bliceoh06:58
ali1234this only happens if i run 3d games06:58
Bliceubuntu in general isn't very good at keeping a small memory footprint though, is it?06:59
ali1234it's not bad, on my old P4 it would use about 348mb normally06:59
Bliceoic.06:59
ali1234but that wasn't good enough for games06:59
BliceI'll get a new computer when 6gb systems go down in price more07:00
ali1234there is currently a leak in the gnome volume control which causes it to use 400MB after a few days but i got that one patched07:00
BliceI saw one from dell for $699 but that isn't cheap enough for me yet07:00
ali1234i haven't seen any other obvious leaks07:00
ali1234this system cost £500 or about $800 i think07:02
ali1234and it can't run moblin cos i bought AMD :)07:02
Blicemake an amd build :D07:02
ali1234i could... but why?07:03
Bliceoh, I thought you were disapointed that you could't run moblin on it07:03
ali1234it is annoying that i can't test the live images07:03
Bliceyou can get a refurbished aspire one for cheap07:04
Blice$150 or so07:04
microlithali1234: can't bring it up in vmware?07:04
microlithor virtualbox?07:04
ali1234microlith: virtualbox. it says something about "unknown vendor microcode" and then stops on a black screen07:04
microliththe live image says that?07:05
ali1234yes, i assume because the phenom 2 does not have SSSE307:05
microlithmmm, nice way of blocking competitors there :>07:05
ali1234Blice: i have an AAO, but i don't have a usb flash big enough for moblin, so i have to get a usb harddrive, and that has errors on it, and always craps out07:06
ali1234i think i dropped it one too many times07:06
ali1234anyway i got it to boot eventually :)07:06
Bliceali1234: are you a dev?07:07
ali1234i would have much prefered to just run it in virtualbox though07:07
ali1234Blice: not for maemo or moblin, no07:07
Bliceoh okay07:07
Bliceif you were I'd donate a bigger flash drive, lol :]07:07
ali1234i do some kernel hacking, bit of PyQt coding07:07
ali1234i am just to lazy to go out and buy one07:07
ali1234and i wanted to see moblin NOW :)07:08
BliceI was a little disapointed with moblin :[07:08
ali1234so i had to mess about a bit... that's the linux way07:08
BliceI thought it would be easier to use and faster to go about doing things on my netbook07:08
Blicebut as it stands its more convenient doing things with a traditional wm07:08
ali1234it is, if you use your netbook to go on twitter07:08
Blicelol07:08
Blicetrue07:08
ali1234which a lot of people do07:08
ali1234presumably facebook integration will be next07:09
ali1234all that stuff07:09
ali1234personally i would replace the "myzone" thing with a terminal or something07:09
Bliceso that the netbook os will be on the same level as mobile phone oses right now?07:09
Blicere: facebook integration07:09
ali1234yeah but with the ability to run normal apps too07:09
ali1234facebook is the money maker though07:10
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arjanBlice: can I ask a questionm07:11
arjanwhat would you like to see?07:11
* microlith pushes moblin out to his usb key07:11
* arjan & very interested as moblin dev... good ideas ;)07:11
bfreenice test for meego's independence from Intel as oppossed to moblin, when I can run it on an amd cpu+gpu :-p07:11
arjangood ideas always welcome07:11
arjanbfree: newer amd cpus have ssse3 too07:11
arjanafaik07:11
Blicearjan: unfortunately I can only give you generic concepts of what I want, not exact ideas :(07:11
arjanit's that with ssse3 you can get away from x87 floating point07:12
arjanBlice: try me ;-)07:12
arjanand non-x87 floating point is a big gain07:12
arjan(think of it like arm neon stuff... same kind of deal)07:12
bfreeI was going to say that arm doesn't have sse307:13
arjanit's purely a compiler thing07:13
Blicearjan: traditional window managers are slightly inconvenient for netbooks because of the screen real estate etc... And I always thought that was what moblin had set out to fix. But as it stands, using moblin is more inconvenient than a normal window manager, when it comes to switching applications or whatever else.07:13
arjanin the meego 1.0 tree we have a much improved app/zone switcher07:13
Blicearjan: It might be as useful once you're adapted to it, but I'd like to see something thats intuitive enough to feel right in that its as useful as a desktop os07:13
arjanit was one of the biggest complaints people had07:13
arjanalt-tab like works again now ;)07:13
bef0rda friend of mine missed the Maximize button from the window decorations07:14
arjanbef0rd: I do too, but I've not been able to convince the UI designers that it's important to have one07:14
arjanI would settle for one which invisible until you mouse over07:14
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Blicearjan: also I'm not  much of a social networking guy. I'm a web guy yes, but not social networking. So the moblin interface feels a little wasted on me07:15
ali1234how easy is it to change the moblin toolbar/ panels?07:15
ali1234if you are even keeping it?07:15
arjanin the newest meego code it's a lot easier apparently; but I have not tried to change it myself07:16
arjanthat part got reworked a lot07:16
ali1234i like how it works but i also feel that probably 4 out of the 8 panels i will never actually use07:16
Blicearjan: I'm really glad you guys are switching to syslinux for boot manager. I've been using it as  mine for the past year and I never understood why more people don't use it07:16
Bliceali1234: same07:16
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arjanali1234: there's some huge improvements there...07:18
arjanBlice: glad you like it.. I like it to07:18
arjan(and it's also nice that I can ask peter anvin for features ... ;-)07:18
Blicearjan: social networking just isn't big on everyone... the interface would be lost on my mother etc.07:18
arjanali1234: the panels are being reshuffled based on user feedback; several won't make it, and a new one is already there07:19
ali1234arjan: for me a killer feature would be if i could set it to show some arbitrary webpage in "fullscreen" - ie totally fill the whole panel with the page07:19
arjansort of like movie mode for webpage07:19
ali1234yeah, so the webpage would be the panel07:20
ali1234and it would autoload up07:20
ali1234so i could have a "gmail" panel right on the toolbar :)07:20
ali1234or a google maps, or anythingi care to make myself07:20
arjanare you here in the UK morning? nick is here in the UK time, and he's the UI designer for that part07:21
ali1234it would be impossible to navigate away from the page you set too - links would open in a "normal" browser07:21
arjansort of a one page mini browser kind of thing07:22
arjanlike you would put NY times there if you're a news junky07:22
arjanor the CNN sports page if you're into pointyball07:22
ali1234yeah07:22
ali1234or more likely point it to your account page on some news aggregator website07:23
arjanyeah or like igoogle/google reader07:23
ali1234basically it would put a webapp right on the toolbar07:23
arjanheck or your google calendar07:23
* arjan likes it07:23
arjanI hope nick likes it too ;-)07:23
ali1234instead of having to find it in your bookmarks07:23
ali1234don't get me wrong, i would prefer a native app to a webpage any day, but a lot of the time that isn't possible especially i have found with gmail07:25
ali1234every time i try to use a normal email client with it, it tries to download all the messages07:26
ali1234and my gmail is 2GB07:26
ali1234so it just fails07:26
arjanhehe07:26
arjanI use claws for email07:26
ali1234i use firefox :)07:26
arjanbut I haven't found the time to package that for moblin/meego in a way that works07:26
BliceI use thunderbird. I like the new search bar and tabs, really nice.07:26
arjanclaws rocks if you have a LOT of email07:26
arjanyeah I use thunderbird for work mail07:26
arjanit's quite nice actually07:26
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ali1234with gmail manager, and lots of filters done in gmail itself, i have no problem browsing multiple mailing lists07:27
arjanbut if you have a TON of mail on imap it might not be the best one07:27
arjanI use claws for that... with lots of like so far07:27
arjanthe only drawback of claws is that it's single threaded07:27
arjanso no background email pulling07:27
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arjan(I don't mind, because if I want my mail I want it now, not in the background anyway)07:27
ali1234seems claws has a maemo port, i should try it :)07:28
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Blicearjan: any word yet on when code will be released? is there a date yet?07:28
ali1234osso-mail was one of the ones that failed, for me07:28
Blicefor meego07:28
DocScrutinizermail clients have a list of mail IDs already downloaded. You could probably generate such list without actually downloading all the mails07:28
ali1234i could do but sometimes even i get tired of hacking stuff to work properly :)07:29
Blicenow that I'm a bit better with C and have had many adventures in "how can I boot faster" land I'm anxious to contribute anything I can07:29
arjanBlice: not a 100% commit, but it looks like 2 to 3 weeks07:29
arjanwe want the infrastructure to actually WORK07:29
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arjanit would suck if we released bits but not a way where people can contrinute07:30
arjancontribute07:30
Bliceyeah I understand07:30
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arjanthere's a lot of complaints already about "oh but there's no bla bla" yet07:31
arjandoing a bunch of half releases sucks, so we are trying to get enough into shape07:31
arjanand that just takes a bit of time07:31
ali1234does moblin have a "download everything and compile it and produce a iso" system like android has? if not, will meego have one?07:31
arjan(and we're trying to get all the artwork changed)07:31
arjannot in the android way07:32
arjanwe have packages, android doesn't07:32
GeneralAntillesarjan, for Moblin or for the site?07:32
arjanwe do have a system to build packages07:32
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arjanGeneralAntilles: the bits; you'd be surprised how often "moblin" was in the graphics07:32
GeneralAntillesHehe07:32
arjanand we have a system to go from packages to an iso07:32
arjanso.. it's more of a two step thing07:32
GeneralAntillesNokia's the exact opposite07:32
GeneralAntillesI think Maemo appears exactly once in any of the UI.07:33
arjanI'm not sure we'll get rid of the all of them; we're trying07:33
arjanbut I'd not be surprised one slips through somewhere ;)07:33
GeneralAntillesCan exactly do a global search on graphics. ;)07:33
GeneralAntilless/Can/Can't/07:34
* GeneralAntilles pokes Stskeeps.07:35
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arjanquite.07:36
arjanali1234: our iso generate tool is quite nifty07:36
bfreearm packages with the first release?  what will it run on :-p  hehe sorry07:36
arjanit generates iso files that are also bootable usb for example07:36
arjanbfree: not entirely sure yet07:36
ali1234yeah that is a nice feature (usb storage boot)07:37
bfreearjan: isohybrid?   if so yep it's nifty07:37
arjanthe infrastructure is getting ready for arm, not sure how much packages we have07:37
DocScrutinizerhmm yeah. USB hostmode needed for boot from USB07:38
DocScrutinizerso for N810 it's nice07:38
DocScrutinizernah wait. Generic hostmode for booting not supported on N810 either07:39
arjanthe iso making tool is extensible to various formats07:39
arjanso if there is some way....07:39
bfreewell with isohybrid it would probably work on sd or any "disc" anyway07:40
arjanbut if the platform just is not very nice about booting, yeah you'd be stuck07:40
DocScrutinizeryeah. SD probably a way to go07:40
arjanto be honest I don't know what the prefered bootloader for arm is07:41
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ali1234there isn't one, all devices use a different one07:41
bfreeworst case "should" be kexec07:41
DocScrutinizerno such thing like "preferred" bootloader07:41
bfreeNokia plan on locking down the bootloader on their next device anyway :-/07:42
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ali1234Nokia uses NOLO, HTC uses IPL/SPL07:42
ptlreally?07:42
* arjan has fond memories of redboot07:42
DocScrutinizera number of devices use uBoot07:42
ptlwhere did you get these news, bfree?07:42
arjanas in "the guys 3 cubes over swear while coding it"07:42
GeneralAntillesbfree, erm, it's already locked down.07:42
bfreeGeneralAntilles: yeah, I wasn't too sure about that07:43
GeneralAntillesbfree, you can still replace it.07:43
ali1234HTC's bootloader is locked down too, it didn't stop it from getting cracked07:43
GeneralAntillesbfree, just nobody's actually built a replacement.07:43
GeneralAntillesand you have to deal with the BB5 crap.07:43
arjanwriting bootloaders is sucky07:43
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GeneralAntillesbfree, the only change for Maemo 6 is that the bootloader will check for signed kernel for the purposes of DRM and security stuff.07:44
bfreeGeneralAntilles: that's not locked down then in my book, just not open.   for maemo6 (from fosdem) the bootloader will be the gatekeeper to the DRM and irreplacable07:44
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GeneralAntillesI hope the GPLv2 thing comes back and kicks Nokia's ass.07:45
GeneralAntillesI can't believe they're kowtowing to operators like this.07:45
ptlok07:45
ptlso if the bootloader will be the gatekeeper to the DRM07:45
ptlas we'll have option to "no DRM"07:46
GeneralAntillesYup07:46
bfreeanyway, for me worst case there is having to do something like petitboot as bootloader (see ps3 linux stuff) to kexec the target from a kernel with built-in initrd (that has petitboot or whatever "bootloader" as a 2nd phase loader)07:46
ptlit will also be the gatekeeper of the "no DRM" option, isn't it?07:46
GeneralAntillesYeah07:46
ali1234ptl: yes, very much so07:46
ptlthat means, what decides if the device is locked or not will be a locked program by itself07:46
GeneralAntillesYes07:46
ptldoesn't that spoil having an option in the first place?07:46
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: NOOOO, signed kernels. :-(((07:47
GeneralAntillesWhich is why if you buy it subsidized the operator can do all sorts of evil shit.07:47
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, is this news?07:47
bfreeyep, so presumably a carrier with a subsidised phone could lock it07:47
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GeneralAntillesbfree, my bet is that Nokia's advertising that as a perk to operators. :\07:47
* GeneralAntilles wishes the dinosaurs would just die off already.07:47
ali1234bfree: yes, that was already stated07:47
bfreeGeneralAntilles: of course they are07:47
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: this means the device is *totally* locked07:47
arjanjust buy enough of the open phones to send the message ;)07:48
ali1234btw all phones have that feature, it's not like it is a "perk" - if a phone can't do that, operators will be asking why the hell it can't?07:48
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, have you not been following any of the security stuff?07:48
GeneralAntillesali1234, N900 doesn't have that feature.07:48
DocScrutinizernah07:49
bfreearjan: open phones, you mean the openmoko?  I didn't like the form factor/hardware much :-p07:49
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, well, signed kernels with Harmattan.07:49
ali1234GeneralAntilles: and that is why you can't buy it subsidized07:49
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, means carriers can lock you to one kernel.07:49
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, Nokia will use it to disable DRM on unsigned kernels.07:49
DocScrutinizereach time it was mentioned a strange nausea forced me away from the PC07:49
GeneralAntillesali1234, not, in fact, the case.07:49
ali1234GeneralAntilles: link please07:49
bfreeYou can buy it "subsidised", just not "defective by design" yet07:49
GeneralAntillesali1234, Vodafone sells it subsidized.07:49
ali1234in what country?07:50
bfreeIreland, vodafone and o2 both afaik07:50
GeneralAntillesUK07:50
arjanwish the n900 was subsidized in the US07:50
ali1234wow it is true07:50
GeneralAntillesarjan, no you don't.07:50
GeneralAntillesarjan, did you see what AT&T did to the E71?07:51
ali1234http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-phone/nokia-n900, £40/month contract07:51
GeneralAntillesOr what's happened to basically every Android phone on the market. . . .07:51
arjanmy n900 is open, and before that I had an E61i unlocked07:51
arjanso no I don't know07:51
GeneralAntillesarjan, subsidization just lets your operator control your device.07:51
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: how do you use signatures of kernel to disable a single kernel feature via bootloader?? I don't see that07:51
arjanDocScrutinizer: it's easy ;(07:52
arjanDocScrutinizer: you have a key in hardware for the DRM crypto07:52
* slonopotamus misses the point of locked phones. They're sold with a contract, that binds you to this operator (at least for some time). Why lock hw itself?07:52
mikeleibGeneralAntilles: it's not tit-for tat in the US.  They might control your device anyway.07:52
arjanand the bootloader does not give access to that key unless the kernel matches a signature07:52
GeneralAntilleshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security07:52
GeneralAntillesmikeleib, AT&T does not control my device.07:52
arjanthis is also how blueray works on windows 707:52
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GeneralAntillesmikeleib, CDMA doesn't count.07:52
ali1234slonopotamus: because they have stuff in the firmware which forwards users to their "walled garden" mobile internet sites rather than the real internet07:52
bfreeslonopotamus: e.g. to make text messaging more attractive then cheaper data07:52
DocScrutinizerarjan: no, bootloader either starts the unsigned kernel, or it does not07:52
ali1234if it wasn't locked people would just reflash with the vanilla firmware07:53
slonopotamusali1234, so?07:53
RST38hmoo all07:54
ali1234slonopotamus: so then they lose out on revenue07:54
slonopotamusbfree, you sign contract anyway (and pay it). Who cares if you use it or not?07:54
DocScrutinizermoo magoo07:54
arjanDocScrutinizer: it can start an unsigned kernel, but tell the vault (TPM whatever) that has the magic key to not give it out07:54
arjanthat is how it works on pcs07:54
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bfreeslonopotamus: who says I signed a contract?07:54
slonopotamusali1234, they already got revenue in form of your monthly paymments.07:54
* mikeleib reads backlog07:54
mikeleibwriting bootstrappers is suckier than writing bootloaders07:55
DocScrutinizerarjan: uhuh, and what about kexec to unsigned kernel then?07:55
slonopotamusbfree, err... i thought that's the way locked phones work. you buy it bundled with a contract.07:55
ali1234slonopotamus: so what? i'm just telling you why they do it, i'm not saying it is right07:55
arjanDocScrutinizer: you can bet that the signed kernels have kexec disabled07:55
slonopotamusali1234, okay :)07:55
ali1234slonopotamus: with their customized firmware they drive the users through there after market revenue system07:55
arjanotherwise you had a moron building your kernel ;-)07:56
DocScrutinizeraha. So what I told. The *whole* device is locked07:56
mikeleibmodule loading as well07:56
arjansigned modules is easy; when I was at RH we used that07:56
arjan(more to show which modules were not from us, so that we knew about it in bug reports)07:57
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arjanbut saying "don't load unsigned modules" would be a trivial change from that07:57
DocScrutinizerwhat a royal fuckup07:57
bfreeslonopotamus: prepay phones can be subsidised only and locked to a network07:57
ali1234and for every phone there is an unlocking tool07:57
bfreeI would have bought a Pre here on prepay except o2 state "they won't unlock it"07:58
jrayhawkYou can probably get a small-time phone shop to unlock it for you for $10-20.07:58
bfreebut that may only be a network lock to confuse issues, not OS07:58
ali1234yes, there are multiple different types of lock07:58
bfreewell I don't buy a Linux phone to unlock it07:59
jrayhawkI mean, the single-carrier requirement will be gone.07:59
bfreethat's just defeating the purpose in my book (hi Tivo)07:59
DocScrutinizerbfree: ACK!08:00
markeymorning08:00
ali1234yes i quite agree, you should not buy locked stuff even if you know oyu can unlock it08:00
jrayhawkNot even at a cost-savings ratio of ten?08:01
ali1234not if you have principles :)08:01
DocScrutinizerI don't NEED fsckng DRM, I don't WANT it, and for sure I won't bother to break it. I'll simply set Nokia on my ignore list the day they sell that crap08:02
jrayhawkWhat principle would that be?08:02
jrayhawkIf I try to give you a used PC that has a password on it, does your principle keep you from accepting it?08:03
microlithjrayhawk: what use to me is a piece of hardware that's been deliberately crippled?08:03
ali1234jrayhawk: no, because the PC has a built in and documented method of removing it08:03
jrayhawkSo does the phone.08:03
ali1234jrayhawk: the maemo 6 / meego phone, yes. other phones, no08:04
DocScrutinizerbullshit08:04
microlithjrayhawk: oh, you're referring to a device where it can actually be unlocked?08:04
microlithwithout begging someone08:04
jrayhawkEvery GSM phone does, some CDMA phones do.08:04
ali1234jrayhawk: those phones can only be unlocked by the carrier for an extra cost, or by undocumented hacks08:05
ali1234jrayhawk: typically the official way needs a unique code, and the hack requires some kind of exploit08:05
suihkulokkifwiw I was quite unsuccessful at unlocking a laptop with bios/hd encryption08:05
ali1234in the PC example, i just remove the BIOS battery (like stated in the manual) and the password is gone08:05
suihkulokkiso I had to ask for the previous owner to unlock it08:05
jrayhawkThe unique code is not phone-unique and they're widely shared without punishment from the carriers.08:05
arjanhd passwords are not encryption fwiw08:05
arjan(and there are master passwords... the drive vendor has those)08:06
bfreeali1234: the maemo6 phone will depend on where you get it who will have permission to do what with it.  The n900 as best I know has no such system available08:06
RST38hhd encryption is gonna cause a problem08:06
suihkulokkiali1234: that laptop had soldered battery08:06
RST38hthe bios password is not08:06
ali1234i would never in a million years buy a PC and not do a full wipe of the drive followed by fresh install08:06
suihkulokkiIt had a bios password to prevent removing the HD encryption08:06
suihkulokkiso not even swapping the HD worked08:07
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, I'm just pulling for Nokia getting a GPLv3 ass kicking.08:07
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ali1234suihkulokki: in that case i would not buy it, it is clearly a lemon of some kind :)08:07
microlithGeneralAntilles: and drive more people away from using GPL licensed software?08:07
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: you talked to Harald Welte?08:08
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, no.08:09
GeneralAntillesmicrolith, maybe all of the dinosaurs will die of heart attacks then we can move on anyway.08:09
DocScrutinizersorry, that nausea strikes again08:09
microlithGeneralAntilles: would be nice, sadly I don't think it will happen soon08:09
bfreethe moblin faq didn't like gpl v3 either08:09
RST38hwhat is the point of moving to gplv3? newer upstream packages?08:10
jrayhawkIf you do attempt enforcement, please use Harald Welte rather than the FSF.08:10
Guest85276hi,there08:11
microlithRST38h: well, for some people it's the political point made in doing so08:11
arjanbfree: I don't think moblin ever said anything about gplv308:11
arjanlike or dislike08:11
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RST38hmicrolith: But aside from political preferences of random people08:12
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microlithRST38h: not much really, it was mostly to close what the FSF saw as loopholes08:13
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bfreearjan: I can't find anything about licenses now on moblin ... sorry if I've misremembered that.  I went reading too much stuff a few days ago and maybe some wires crossed08:16
Guest85276:/LIST08:16
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Guest85276setenv IRCNICK eric.leopard08:19
* Guest85276 slaps deekey around a bit with a large trout08:19
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Guest85276setenv IRCNICK eric.leopard08:30
ml-mobileit's not working very well...08:30
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Pactest08:32
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DocScrutinizerpest08:36
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tekojoMorning MeeGo!08:40
Stskeepsmorning tekojo08:41
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ericleopardIn my time, it shoule be "afternoon"08:44
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Stskeepsthink it would be sane to adapt UGT ;)08:46
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leinirStskeeps: What, internet time? ;)08:52
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th0br0Good morning ...09:10
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DocScrutinizer~ugt09:20
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: how about /invite infobot ?09:21
Stskeepstried09:21
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps09:21
DocScrutinizerrejected?09:21
Stskeepsnot responding to my invites09:22
DocScrutinizershit, tim riker was around last night. You'd need to contact him and ask him to allow infobot to join09:22
johnxyou're being too forward, try some flowers or chocolates09:22
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps09:22
Stskeepsjohnx: the wedding ring on my finger probably doesn't help09:23
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: yeah, i woke up two hours too late09:23
johnxStskeeps, you'd be amazed at that one actually, but maybe infobot's just not that kind of bot09:24
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: you might try to catch Tim on #BZFlag09:25
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StskeepsDocScrutinizer: k09:25
johnxbzflag! wow, been a while since I played that09:25
DocScrutinizeror on #infobot09:26
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Stskeepsmorn danielwilms09:27
danielwilmsStskeeps: morning!09:27
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* mikeleib tires09:31
tripzerosleep mikeleib09:31
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mikeleibtripzero: sleep09:33
tripzerookay, i will09:34
JaffaMorning, all09:34
ericleopardmorning!09:36
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dl9pfmoin09:42
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timeless_mbpok, for people to play, i've put up http://ec2-72-44-51-255.compute-1.amazonaws.com/ - thanks to jebba for hosting09:45
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timeless_mbpif anyone familiar w/ rpm/rpmbuild is around, and can talk to me for a bit, that'd be appreciated09:45
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slaine_timeless_mbp: I'm about to head off to work09:52
slaine_but you could email me your questions and I'll try and answer them or wait for just over an hour and I'll be back in here09:53
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* timeless_mbp wonders if there's an easy way to get a list of [user] 'installed' packages09:57
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* DocScrutinizer waves10:01
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Jaffatimeless_mbp: you mean ones in Section: user/?10:05
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timeless_mbpJaffa: sorry, realm:moblin(meego-base)10:12
timeless_mbpi mean things that i installed _after_ the system installed packages10:12
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timeless_mbproughly things that 'apt' would have remembered me 'asking' for10:12
timeless_mbpbut in this case, i'm using 'yum'10:12
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* timeless_mbp grumbles10:16
* timeless_mbp kicks gcompris10:16
timeless_mbp99% of the packages i'm playing with use 'BuildRequires:'10:16
timeless_mbpgcompris just to be different uses 'Buildrequires:'10:16
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* timeless_mbp also kicks aspell, autoconf213, automake, cronie, dbus-c++, expect, gettext, libbonoboui, and libgpod10:43
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bvatownxelliot: Are you around?11:15
bvaor maybe X-Fade ?11:17
townxelliotbva: hello11:17
bvaI have noticed something on the website of Meego11:18
slaine_timeless_mbp: how you getting on ?11:18
bvamaybe you can have a look11:18
townxelliotbva: what's that?11:18
timeless_mbpslaine_: well, i got most of the packages to transform into sources11:18
bvaMeego.com -> Community11:18
timeless_mbpi want to smack those couple of packages which don't write BuildRequires: with a capital R (see irc log)11:19
slaine_rpmdev-setuptree created your macro etc. I assume ?11:19
bvaif you press like | A |11:19
slaine_I'm only a different machine at the moment11:19
bvayou get names starting with W11:19
bvaand M11:19
timeless_mbpslaine_: channel topic has a link to a permanent log11:19
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slaine_oh, never noticed11:20
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timeless_mbpslaine_: so, i have a couple of packages which failed to patch properly, one needed dos2unix, one needed cabextract11:21
timeless_mbpbut it's mostly done11:21
timeless_mbpnow i'm trying to figure out why my indexer doesn't like me11:21
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townxelliotbva: not sure what you mean11:22
bvatownxelliot: your on the members pag?11:22
bvapage*11:23
townxelliotbva: yes, it's filtering by username, but showing the display name11:25
townxelliotbva: granted, not particularly intuitive11:25
bvaaaah yeah ok11:26
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bvappl will be confused if they dont know that11:26
bvaI was :D11:26
pasi:-)11:28
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pasiis there already emulator and SDK for MeeGo?11:36
pillar_pasi: nope11:37
pillar_they promised an sdk for q211:37
pasiok, thanks. So only way to look MeeGo now is to get the kickstart and image from repository and install it /test livecd?11:39
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pasiYes, seems to be Moblin images but its pretty much same as MeeGo.11:42
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rzris the pkgmanager war over ?11:43
rzr+hi11:43
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pasiI think that it's still better to keep helmet.11:45
slaine_pasi: MeeGo 1.0 will be Moblin 2.2 + some Nokia Qt apps, I believe. So currently, thats the best way to get what's available11:46
slaine_Though as I understand it, the Nokia apps aren't submitted yet11:46
slaine_or available in the repo at least11:46
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villemvlwn has a (subscriber only) meego article as well11:47
pasislaine: Ok, thanks. so lets burn some disks11:48
* villemv has no access though11:48
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villemvslaine_: what nokia qt apps? any idea?11:48
villemvI'd imagine meego 1.0 to be moblin 2.2, period ;-)11:49
slaine_pasi: ewww, disks.11:49
pasislaine_: ok, just one.11:49
slaine_villemv: we don't know yet, but the inclusion of some Qt apps has been mentioned11:49
slaine_What and how many I guess depends on the dev teams involved.11:50
villemvmentioned where? one those colossal mailing list threads?11:50
timeless_mbpvillemv: those don't exist11:50
timeless_mbppress releases11:50
slaine_either here or #moblin11:50
slaine_that's my understanding anyways.11:51
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MelisUI thought Meego 1.0 = Maemo 6  .. this is all very confusing. I guess we have to wait for Meego 2.011:58
Stskeepsnah, m6 is a 'meego instance', which i'm sure is going to come back to haunt nokia claiming11:58
slaine_MelisU: The full integration won't happen 'til then for sure. At this point, maemo6 and moblin 2.2 are too far along to kill them off11:59
slaine_So both will have some level of cross fertilizing with the platform shift happening for maemo6+111:59
slaine_at least, that's my best guess11:59
MelisUwell, at the moment it is not like either Moblin or Maemo has any traction and so the uproar if they get most scrapped will be limited (outside of IRC and mailling list of course)11:59
slaine_I think Intel have contractual obligations to ship Moblin 2.2 to some OEM's12:00
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bvamaybe they both have to communicate a bit more (be clearer) to the outside world12:01
bvaso Meego knows where they are standing12:02
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Naranekright now I have the feeling that nobody knows what the merge will actually mean. That might be wrong, but that's where the better communication comes into play :)12:02
bvaexactly what i wanted to say12:03
rzrare there some community surveys about this project ? to see where it can go ?12:04
Naranekor could it be that the details are actually kept secret by Nokia and Intel until the first version is released?12:04
Stskeepswell, the most common would be "to hell" if judging by the deb to rpm move, rzr ;)12:04
Stskeepsand the complaints people have ;)12:05
rzrthis makes me worry yeah12:05
Stskeepsi don't worry and neither should you12:05
Stskeeps:P12:05
bvappl have to get over the rpm deb issue and just accept a decicion being made12:05
rzraccepting is not acceptable12:06
Stskeepsrzr: somewhere someone had to put a line in the sand, if we are to have a production quality product12:07
rzri can understand this12:07
villemvif you want to have surveys, that's all you are going to end up with12:07
villemvcanonical is semi-suggesful because it's not a democracy12:07
* w00t_ wanders in12:07
w00t_morning, meego12:08
villemvsuccesful12:08
rzranyway this project is interessing to understand how can free projects can merge12:08
villemvneither maemo core or moblin are community projects12:08
rzrmer is12:08
villemveven if the software within is12:08
rzrwell when we shoot Stskeeps12:08
rzr:)12:09
rzranyway maemo and cannonical are relying on a community project , probally moblin does this too12:10
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Stskeepsrzr: maemo doesn't rely on a community project, but the tables are changed a bit now :P12:10
rzrthat's a compromise i can deal12:10
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lbt_moin12:10
rzrStskeeps: what about debian ?12:10
* lbt_ stabs lbt12:10
Stskeepsrzr: not relying on it12:11
MelisUI really hope this will go somewhere, but maybe it is already too late. Google is cloud-supercharing Android to the point where it will become the Linux of choice12:11
StskeepsMelisU: if we can make meego -very easy- to port, we have a very compelling niche12:11
rzrStskeeps: so they revrote all debian packages ? ... humm12:11
Stskeepsrzr: no, as in, forked once, kept on working on it12:12
MelisUevery Android device can get turn-by-turn, Google Goggles AND you can even get ad money from Google. VERY hard to beat12:12
lbt_MelisU: and that has what? to do with linux?12:12
StskeepsMelisU: err.. no12:13
rzrStskeeps: well we say the same thing using opposite words12:13
StskeepsMelisU: port android to your device, you don't get google apps12:13
MelisUStskeeps: I was talking about device manufactures .12:13
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MelisUI just hope Qt 4.7 with QML etc. will tip the scale .. it is soo much better than Android12:15
bvaIs Android itself completely open source?12:15
rzrMelisU: anyway as an android developer i dont think i'll buy any android phone12:15
rzrMelisU: so there is a market for geeks like us12:15
MelisUrzr: I want my phone to be a real computer too, but most people don't really care. Google perks and the big name does it for them12:16
VRewhen 4.7 should be out?12:16
MelisUQt releases every 9 month I think12:16
MelisUso 10.1012:16
rzrMelisU: same for fast food , they didnt own all restorants12:16
leinirIt's going into feature freeze today iirc :)12:17
w00t_some days ago, thiago was saying earlier that 4.7 is aimed at the first half of this year, 4.8 hopefully by the end of the year, though of course this was a very informal discussion12:17
w00t_(wrt Qt)12:18
MelisUrzr: I am not arguing about Meegos merits .. it has a lot. But I talkiing about getting enough traction to attract lots of app devs and many device manus12:18
rzrMelisU: you'll start with existing apps that can not be ported to android or iphone12:19
MelisUw00t_: Cool, I thought Qt was on 9 month cycle .. but 4.8 this year would be awesome. What does 4.8 bring?12:19
w00t_MelisU: too early to tell, really12:19
rzrMelisU: but i see what you mean, i wish i can get paid to work on thoses gnu plateforms12:20
leinirOfficial support for Android and iPhone? ;)12:20
w00t_I do know that QML was merged to master recently, so that will be in 4.712:20
leinir(mmm, wishful thinking ;) )12:20
w00t_leinir: don't laugh, someone apparantly got native client working on android12:20
w00t_:P12:20
leinirOh i know that :) Note the "official" bit up there ;)12:20
w00t_hehe12:20
rzrw00t_: native client on what ?12:20
w00t_gut feeling is that I think it will happen, I don't know when though12:21
w00t_rzr: "on android"12:21
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w00t_read the rest of the line :)12:21
leinirrzr: just a second...12:21
rzrw00t_: of what ?12:21
rzrqt ?12:21
w00t_Qt, leinir is digging up the link I guess12:21
rzryes they did that12:21
rzron iphone too12:21
rzrbut integration will probally suck12:22
rzrwell i hope not12:22
rzrwho knows12:22
w00t_early days12:22
w00t_give it some time12:22
rzrleinir:  that's what you are searching :  http://www.newlc.com/en/qt-port-android-platform-watch-android-lighthouse-video12:22
leinirhttp://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/416712:23
leinirthat :)12:23
rzrok same project12:25
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MelisUif Qt were to run on all platforms (iPhone, Android etc.) it would help. But I guess Windows Phone 7 Series will not allow native code .. just .NET12:26
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pasiand .net is slow..clr eats memory.12:26
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Shrik3bah12:26
leinirMelisU: did they break backwards compatibility? (not that i'd blame them, just wondering)12:27
Shrik3everything but pure asm "eats memory"12:27
pasi:-D12:27
MelisUpasi: you can see that in some of the WP7S videos .. it lags12:27
bvaShrik3: start writing asm :p you'll b efinished in 50years :p12:28
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Shrik3and thus the point of .NET on wmo7 comes up =)12:28
Shrik3it's really easy to do software on .NET compared to say … symbian12:28
MelisUleinir: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/18/windows-phone-7-development-policies-and-guidelines-leaked/12:29
pasiheh, thats so true. Symbian has been for me hardest12:29
Shrik3and by easy I mean visual basic drag&drop easy12:29
Shrik3it's pretty close to Qt in portability from mobile to desktop12:30
Shrik3(and web)12:30
pasi.net is productive..very productive. All goods doesn't comes in one package12:30
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MelisUyeah, MS has good tools. Qtcreator needs a good emulator that supports cross compilation etc. .. Meego needs a lot of stuff12:30
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pasihmm, btw. I don't think that installing QT to Win7 phones will be impossible. Well of course it depends about MS marketing..but I forget MS phones now and concentrate to MeeGo12:34
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markeyre12:35
markeywhat's new? :)12:35
markeyok, stupid question, admittedly12:36
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pasianyone already installed meego from repo? Im using default kickstart from http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/ia32/os/image-config/ . Seems to taking a lot of files. There is virtual machine ks also. Anyone using that?12:42
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timeless_mbppasi: i'm still indexing moblin, and i have a moblin2.1 vm12:46
slaine_timeless_mbp: I didn't get very far investigating that vm issue last night12:47
slaine_uxlaunch is the problem alright, I just didn't get to debug it12:48
slaine_I'll have a go later12:48
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* timeless_mbp frowns12:48
timeless_mbpslaine_: strange12:48
* timeless_mbp seems to have confused directory names12:49
slaine_?12:49
slaine_your indexer ?12:49
timeless_mbpyeah12:50
timeless_mbpi seem to have both moblin.org and meego.com12:50
timeless_mbpoh12:50
* timeless_mbp did something stupid12:50
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timeless_mbpok, grabbing repo.moblin :)12:56
timeless_mbperr repo.meego12:56
timeless_mbpwhatever :)12:56
bvatimeless get some sleep :) seems you ened it12:57
timeless_mbpbva: i sleep on weekends12:57
timeless_mbpmy weekend starts in ~3 hrs12:57
ProLinkyea sleep is a waste of time but we have to do it.. wrr.12:58
AmbyI've put up a Glossary/abbreviation page in the wiki, with some limited initial entries, if anyone feels the need to contribute :) http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary12:58
w00t_sleep is overrated12:58
timeless_mbpAmby: can you use some other syntax?12:58
timeless_mbpa hyphen or something to distinguish between a name and the meaning12:59
Ambytimeless_mbp: meaning?12:59
timeless_mbpor a newline or ...12:59
w00t_IIRC - If I Recall Correctly12:59
w00t_as opposed to12:59
timeless_mbprelying on <b> or <strong> isn't very nice12:59
w00t_IIRC If I Recall Correctly12:59
Ambysure, what would be better?12:59
timeless_mbpas w00t_ wrote will suffice13:00
timeless_mbpyou don't need to remove the strong13:00
timeless_mbpalthough i'd suggest <em> instead13:00
timeless_mbp-- i defer to w00t_  on presentation13:00
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timeless_mbpyou should also find the maemo wiki page that lists abbreviations13:00
timeless_mbpyou should list it under 'useful links'13:01
Ambysomehow my newline did not go through and I'm at work. But I'll do that tonight - or you can simply modify, I have no emotianal attachment to my formatting ;)13:01
timeless_mbpi have no time to do it, i need sleep13:01
timeless_mbpif i do everything, how will anyone else learn? :)13:01
pasidamn, default.ks didn't work.13:01
Ambytimeless_mbp: I was searching for that in maemo wiki - did not find in 5 mins13:01
timeless_mbpslaine_: so, about ~/.rpmmacros13:02
timeless_mbpit's cute, but what if i want two distinct .rpmmacros files?13:02
timeless_mbp(one for moblin, one for meego)13:02
AmbyAnyway, first draft is under http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary and I'll come back in 7 hours to complete a proper first version, if nobody is jumping on it :)13:02
timeless_mbphave a good weekend13:03
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timeless_mbpslaine_: ok, wtf13:04
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timeless_mbp[timeless@domU-12-31-39-0A-8C-36 SRPMS]$ curl -o - http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ConsoleKit-0.4.1-5.3.src.rpm 2>/dev/null|grep moved13:05
timeless_mbp<p>The document has moved <a href="http://repo.moblin.org/trunk/repo/source/ConsoleKit-0.4.1-5.3.src.rpm">here</a>.</p>13:05
timeless_mbpso basically repo.meego.com/trunk/repo is just a joke13:05
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X-Fadetimeless_mbp: moblin drop will be in 2 to 3 weeks afaik.13:06
timeless_mbpX-Fade: so why did they bother creating a directory which just redirects to another server?13:07
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timeless_mbpcouldn't they be nice and um.... not do that?13:07
X-Fadetimeless_mbp: To have something there? :)13:07
X-FadeNo idea.13:07
timeless_mbpi'd rather the directory itself redirected13:07
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w00t_random note, I hate hate hate redirects like that13:16
w00t_google.com does it too and it annoys me13:16
w00t_</minirant>13:17
* w00t_ goes back to introducing a proper privacy policy at work for the first time in 6 years of operation13:17
Naraneka new lock at the toilet?13:18
bvaremoving the camera at the girl's part13:19
lcukadding walls to the cubicles will help13:19
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Myrttipeople stopping being idiots is always helpful13:19
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w00t_lol13:21
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w00t_grr, I wish I had a faster office machine13:25
w00t_this one cannot keep up with me13:25
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* timeless_mbp needs to go shopping for a new hdd13:26
w00t_timeless_mbp: get me a new machine while you're at it13:27
w00t_a 6 year old P4 is just not cutting it13:27
timeless_mbpw00t_: it took me 3 or 4 people to get approval for a new hdd13:28
w00t_timeless_mbp: at least you *got* approval13:28
w00t_:P13:28
* timeless_mbp frowns13:28
timeless_mbpi just got a reminder for an event that happened 4 hours ago13:28
slaine_timeless_mbp: sorry was in meetings13:28
w00t_something has to terminally die here before we replace it13:28
slaine_ah, meego repo redirects to moblin repo13:28
slaine_cunning13:28
timeless_mbpslaine_: please ask the guy who setup the meego repo url to fix it so that it doesn't do what it's doing13:28
timeless_mbpas w00t_ note, google does not approve13:29
slaine_I'm just a user13:29
timeless_mbpslaine_: if you have better access to the guy who did it, :)13:29
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niqthttp://www.tuxjournal.net/?p=11201 traslet in english LG GW990: video first smartphone con MeeGo, is true?13:31
detectivedeb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb13:33
Stskeepsdetective: not funny anymore13:33
Stskeeps:P13:33
detective:D13:33
detectiveah come on13:34
MyrttiEMERGE WORLD!13:34
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leinirniqt: sort of, ish... It's not running MeeGo there, it's Moblin :)13:51
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niqtok13:52
niqtthnaks13:52
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CosmoHillMeego. YouGo? WeeGo!14:19
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megabastCosmoHill: nice ^^14:25
CosmoHill:D14:25
CosmoHillin my head there are two cartoon people jumping up doing a high five going "yay!"14:26
X-FadeThereYaGO would have been a lot better ;)14:26
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bvawish I could animate now14:26
bvaanimate at all :)14:27
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CosmoHilli know the style i want it in too14:27
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CosmoHill:o14:32
CosmoHillcontains swearing: http://www.khaoskomix.com/cgi-bin/comic.cgi?chp=6&page=5714:32
CosmoHill2nd panel down14:32
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Stskeepssome thoughts about Mer now that MeeGo exists: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mer-project-just-bunch-of-redshirts.html14:38
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JaffaEeek, someone's gone and capitalised "maemo.org" on Who's who15:20
Stskeepsheh15:20
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GAN900lol15:22
Jaffahttp://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=Who%27s_who&diff=326&oldid=32515:23
* Jaffa would correct, but meeting time15:24
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, corrected.15:26
blinohello15:26
Stskeepshello blino15:27
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blinodo you have any idea yet which multimedia framework is going to be used in MeeGo ?15:31
blinowould that be phonon, qtmobility, gstreamer?15:31
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milliamsI'm not sure it's been explicitly said. But Phonon doesn't exclude GStreamer anyway.15:32
villemvqtmobility + gstreamer15:33
villemvwell, qtmobility wraps gstreamer15:33
villemv(guessing)15:34
villemv+ qtmultimedia15:34
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w00t_i'd be relying on qtmultimedia, yeah15:37
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roschI assume the Qt Mobility Multimedia API, which there easily can be written back ends for.. So IMO it doesn't matter if MeeGo ships with xine or gstreamer or somethign else. I assuem different devices will have different backends15:46
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* bva thinks that giving support over satelite connections to Afrika really is NOT fun!16:07
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zaheermmy guess is gstreamer will be part of the platform16:36
slaine_it's on the diagrams iirc16:37
slaine_it'll definitely be in MeeGo 1.0 for netnooks16:37
zaheermyah and in harmattan16:37
slaine_as the mediaplayer there is based on MX and clutter-gst16:37
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w00t_there was discussion on the ML about it recently, zaheerm, and from what was said, you're right :)16:44
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zaheermit is a pity that the phonon gst backend isn't good16:48
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* arjan wakes up16:50
w00t_moin arauho16:50
w00t_..16:50
w00t_arjan16:50
Stskeepsmorning arjan16:50
arjanyeah on media, it's gstreamer as backend16:50
arjanand the qt layer on top for apps16:50
* w00t_ nods16:50
arjanI'll leave it to the qt guys to say which qt api that is16:51
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MelisUphonon16:52
arjan(there's sort of a rule of thumb; if maemo and moblin both use the same thing, it's 99% sure the same in meego)16:52
MelisUand Qt trumps gtk16:53
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Cosmo|Uniget arjan16:54
Cosmo|Uniand w00t_16:54
* w00t_ eyes Cosmo|Uni?16:54
*** Cosmo|Uni is now known as CosmoHill16:55
CosmoHillhey*16:55
CosmoHilli duno how i say "get" instead if "hey"16:55
CosmoHillof*16:55
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inzCosmo, your right hand was off-by-one.16:56
arjanclearly today is not a good day for you to type16:56
arjan:)16:56
CosmoHillhehe16:56
w00t_a typical case of mondayitis on a friday16:56
CosmoHillI've spent the last hour and a half swearing at a computer / doing a tutorial16:56
* Stskeeps looks around for loose change for the coffee machine at polish classes16:56
slaine_Woot, it's friday16:56
* w00t_ steals all Stskeeps' change16:57
slaine_w00t_'s in your p0ck375 stealing your change16:57
CosmoHilltoday class, we will be using a feature that has been removed from the version cosmo has16:57
AmbyQt trumps gtk, but lizard trumps Qt16:57
CosmoHilland lizard tastes better16:58
inzAmby, fire beats rock, paper _and_ scissors16:58
* slaine_ is currently installing qt and qt-creator to see what all the fuss is over16:58
w00t_slaine_: :)17:00
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slaine_tutorial and everything, hmm, I've not time now, I'll check it later17:03
slaine_will the UI scale to a netbook screen ?17:03
CosmoHilli'd imagine so17:05
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CosmoHilli'd see it as a waste of resources if it didn't use all of the screen17:06
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CosmoHilli need to find a good place for my PC17:07
AmbySo, how would the five weapon RPS game go in MeeGo world? deb, rpm, obs, tarball, scratchbox?17:08
CosmoHillrpm is the meego package manager17:09
arjannot package manager17:10
arjanpackaging format17:10
arjanjust to nitpick on that17:10
CosmoHillah sorry17:10
CosmoHillyum or whatever would be the package manager17:10
arjanzypper17:11
CosmoHilli may have to steal that for my distro :)17:12
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blackxoredhi I'm a mobile technician and developer and I wanted to know what I can do to get linux on a nokia e65, it is possible?17:26
crashanddieIf MeeGo has done anything17:27
crashanddieit's rekindle my belief that geeks have the ability to bikker about anything for more than a lifetime without ever reaching a conclusion -- or even approaching one17:27
w00t_slaine_: it will be usable, but obviously, with differing sizes you will most likely want to rethink the UI for different size devices17:27
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slaine_w00t_: I meant qt-creator itself17:28
slaine_I might look at it on my netbook on the commute home this evening17:28
w00t_slaine_: mm. i wouldn't personally want to use it on a small screen, but it might be usable17:28
classicjust a quick question, will Nokia N900 support Meego?17:28
w00t_classic: short answer is "maybe", longer answer is "too early to tell, really"17:29
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classicthanks17:29
blackxoredGuys, I'm answering again, I'm debian/ubuntu/general developer and a hobbiest as a mobile technician, I want to know if I can install some linux on E65, I can flash eeprom, do firmware upgrade, whatever it takes, I just want to know if it can be done17:29
w00t_blackxored: my guess is that the lack of an answer would indicate that nobody knows for sure - I certainly don't as I've never had experience with an E6517:30
dazopatience is a virtue17:30
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w00t_but yes, be patient, maybe someone who knows more will wander in17:31
blackxoredw00t_, so let's rephrase that then, linux on a S60 phone? anyone?17:31
w00t_same answer for me at least17:32
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slaine_arjan: any chance of getting the qt-creator stuff into the moblin 2.1 repo's ?17:33
dazoblackxored:  what kind of CPU does it have? ... if it is supported by the kernel, well, then you have a theoretic chance ... it then depends on what kind of hardware is driving the display and other I/O like keypads etc .... if the kernel got support for those devices, then it's getting closer17:34
arjanslaine_: I'll ask around17:34
JaffaGeneralAntilles: ta for fixing the capitalisation17:34
slaine_I don't want to install trunk just yet17:34
slaine_thanks17:34
zaheermblackxored, you may need to know someone at nokia to do that...17:34
blackxoreddazo, the cpu17:35
blackxoredDual ARM 9 220 MHz processor17:35
dazoblackxored:  so ... figure out what kind of hardware the E65 got first ... then check out what kind of drivers you need to at least get display and keyboard to work ...17:35
slaine_and of course, I'm making an assumption that qt-creator etc are in moblin trunk ;)17:35
* slaine_ goes check17:35
blackxoredsupposedly moblin runs on arm17:35
arjanmoblin does not17:35
arjanmeego will17:35
dazoblackxored:  not yet17:35
CosmoHilli don't think so17:35
CosmoHillmoblin = intel17:36
blackxoredarjan, meego I meant, thanks17:36
CosmoHillthe other one = arm17:36
CosmoHillmeego = both :)17:36
blackxoredyeah yeah I know, it was a mistak17:36
blackxoredso, i have an arm processor, will it run17:36
blackxored?17:36
zaheermblackxored, the issue is more on how you're going to flash your phone...17:36
arjanthere's a gap between running on a processor, and running on a system17:36
slaine_arjan: and a couple of weeks yet for moblin trunk to become meego trunk then I assume ?17:36
arjanthe gap is a huge list of device drivers17:37
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blackxoredarjan, what do I exactly need to know before proceeding with the flash?17:37
CosmoHillthe processor is only one part of the system17:37
CosmoHilli wonder if it will be like the ipod, you can flash it but if all goes wrong you can still access it to reflash it17:38
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arjanblackxored: my suggestion is that it's unlikely to just work17:38
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arjanblackxored: it's not something for the faint of heart lets put it that way17:38
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arjanif nobody ever did it before... think "3 year project"17:39
blackxoredCosmoHill, yeah I can revive it if I kill it17:39
blackxoredI have flashing boxes17:39
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Nitialblackxored: TI has some linux stuff for omap1710 reference board.. I guess you can start looking at those17:41
blackxoredNitial, enlighten me17:41
Nitialgoogle 'omap1710 linux' and you will get to TI linux community17:42
Nitialtoo lazy to copypaste the link with n900 ;)17:43
slaine_I'm interested in getting a Tegra dev board, is there such a thing available outside the us ?17:44
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zaheermthere were a few at MWC earlier in the week17:48
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zaheermsaw some on ARM's stand17:49
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wizkodermoin17:51
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CosmoHillstupid printer18:02
CosmoHillit says it out of paper, i just press a button and it works18:02
* arjan suggests the "Office Space" method18:02
CosmoHilldone that once18:02
CosmoHillthrow it across my bedroom18:03
bvaGuys i have a offtopic question, what irc client do you use?18:03
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CosmoHillsomething feel out but it stills works so i couldn't have been important18:04
RST38hircii18:04
CosmoHillbva: xchat aqua (mac os x)18:04
RST38hAnd Maemo5 version of XChat18:04
damien_lirssi18:04
CosmoHillcommand line + screen?18:04
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damien_lindeed18:04
bvayeah, i'm kindof working from a windows pc :s18:05
CosmoHilli sometimes tunnel in via ssh from uni18:05
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CosmoHillbva: pidgin?18:05
ali1234i use pidgin over ssh, works nice18:05
detectivego irssi18:05
ali1234i would use empathy, if they ever add proper irc support to it18:05
AVeebva: There are windows versions of xchat around, pidgin will do as well. Or go the irssi+screen route if you have ssh acces to some *nix box.18:06
bpeelerc probably works on windows18:07
AVeeOr irssi on cygwin...18:08
bvammmm ... going to use the ssh tunnel. thanks anyway. Didnt knew it was so badly these thays with Wdws IRC clients18:09
bpeelmIRC is common on windows18:09
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bvayeah but you have to pay for that :)18:10
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bpeelwell, you have to pay for windows too, so what do you expect :)18:10
Myrttixchat is free18:10
AVeeTrue, that's also common on windows (unless it's spyware) ;)18:10
ali1234windows programmers have to pay for all those windows licences somehow18:10
bvaaha found irsii windows ...!18:11
detectivewindows fail18:11
Myrttihttp://www.silverex.org/ etc18:11
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AVeeOr, if you keep running into these kind of issues, install andLinux. Worked wonders for me in the past.18:12
bvayeah I have a linux downstairs on my tower pc but its cold there :p18:12
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AVeeAh, so the cpu load is just to low? ;)18:13
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bvahéhé no there is no heating :p18:16
bvaMaybe I should try some benchmarks to heat is up18:16
bvaanyway thanks for the help18:16
AVeeYou might be suprised about how well that works...18:16
ptljust took my master degree in molecular biology and genetics. :D18:16
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* ptl happy18:17
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bva_irssiI modified (layout) http://www.wiki.meego.com/Glossary a bit, I hope its okay that way?18:23
ptlno, it became horrible, you really screwed up! Shame on you!18:25
ptlkidding!18:25
bva_irssi:)18:25
bva_irssiI saw the sarcasm :p18:25
ptlI can't even see the page, it says Not Found - The requested URL /Glossary was not found on this server.18:25
V13www.wiki ?18:26
bva_irssithere is a link on the mainpage18:26
V13:P18:26
ptltook the www off and it worked18:26
bva_irssioops, I guess18:26
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V13FWIW: BME description is not good. It doesn't say what it is. It just mentions what it does18:27
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bva_irssiI kind of didnt create the text :) just did the layout18:28
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MelisUWOW, QML is so awesome. Meego really needs to advertise it. It totally rocks. Especially for different devices. Cool stuff.18:41
MelisUhttp://qt.nokia.com/doc/main-snapshot/declarativeui.html18:42
damien_lMelisU: have you tried it?18:42
MelisUdamien_l: I just found that link. But I intend to play with that "Same game" example tonight18:43
MelisUAny Qt devs around? Will QML apps have startup lag like Python apps?18:43
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MelisUI'll ask in #qt :)18:44
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villemvMelisU: QML apps now have a lag18:57
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villemvbut otoh it's not "final" technology and this can be speeded up18:57
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smharI spent a lot of time reading the many pages of talk.maemo.org -and meego.com- but still nobody seems to get a definite answer, so any one got some news on this? with the introduction of meego is the N900 a dead road? I WAS planning to get one soon18:58
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tripz0smhar, just like with maemo6, there is no official word on the n900 getting the update18:59
tripz0but no word doesn't mean dead end18:59
villemvsmhar: Stskeeps will port Meego for n900 ;-)18:59
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tripz0right, the community may port whatever they want for the n90018:59
tripz0i plan on getting one in the near future19:00
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slaine_is anyone getting decent speeds off the moblin repo ?19:26
slaine_I'm only getting 20kB/s for the qt-doc rpms19:26
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Ambybva_irssi: thanks for the Glossary wiki update19:43
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itdockahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh19:58
arjanbhhhhhhhhhh19:59
slaine_wtf is going on with moblin repo19:59
slaine_I'm getting 17kB/s, at best19:59
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itdockmoblin needs more bw20:02
slaine_itdock: it's not just me then ?20:05
itdockno i had issues with it yesterday20:05
slaine_sigh20:05
Ambymust be the millions of MeeGo developers joining20:05
slaine_or the milliona of maemo users seeing WTF this Moblin thing is ;)20:06
arjanslaine_: fwiw it's also mirrored on kernel.org20:06
arjanand those guys have real bandwidth20:06
slaine_nod, I was going to change my repo20:06
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slaine_but I've to leave in 5 mins, so I'll skip it 'til I get home20:07
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anaZitdock:  what are you d/ling exactly and from where?20:09
itdockwas downloading the moblin netbook iso yesterday i was getting abysmal speeds20:09
slaine_I was pulling the qt-doc rpm20:09
anaZqt-doc is indeed a large file...20:10
anaZfrom where?20:10
slaine_didn't really need it, just qt-devel for now20:10
slaine_creating a qt-creator package for moblin 2.120:10
anaZwhy bother with 2.1 :)20:11
slaine_'cause that's whats on my netbook20:11
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anaZI see20:11
slaine_it'll be in 2.2, I mean MeeGo 1.020:11
slaine_:)20:11
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th0br0Right, so~ any news? :D20:20
CosmoHilltodo with meego? no20:21
th0br0yay! f12 arm as the base for meego arm! w00t! :D20:21
* w00t_ eyes th0br020:22
hwoarangis there a public repo for meego or it is way too early for that ? :)20:22
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th0br0:P w00t_20:22
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th0br0hwoarang: afaik we'll have that in ~2 weeks time20:22
w00t_hwoarang: too early - first code is expected in 2-3 weeks I think20:22
hwoarangi see. thank you both :)20:22
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meinereinerHi20:52
meinereiner/who20:52
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arachnistlol?20:52
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thiago_home/wtf20:55
thiago_home:-)20:55
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* RST38h yawns again20:58
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tripz0is the n900's gps incompatible with gpsd?21:00
tripz0is that the reason for locator-daemon or whatever it's called?21:01
mikeleibIIRC, locator-daemon does the agps stuff21:01
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Tm_Tcommunity ML is working apparently (:21:11
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th0br0indeed Tm_T21:16
th0br0only there haven't been any replies yet21:16
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Tm_Tth0br0: I blame you21:22
th0br0blame! blame! who is to blame?21:22
th0br0and for what am i to blame?21:22
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donpdonpsounds like the opening of an opera.21:23
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Tm_Tth0br0: the mail mess I just went thru in half-panic (:21:29
th0br0huh Tm_T?21:30
Tm_Tth0br0: see if my reply got to ML finally21:30
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th0br0ah Tm_T21:31
th0br0it did21:31
Tm_Twow (:21:31
Tm_Tbit hard, no "reply to ML" for me, had to copy-paste the address21:32
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th0br0hugs! :D21:32
th0br0i get a "reply list" here, though21:32
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* Tm_T huggles th0br021:33
th0br0:)21:33
* th0br0 huggles Tm_T back ;)21:33
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CosmoHilloo hugs21:38
arachnisthugs?21:39
* arachnist needs a hug...21:39
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* auke hands out free hugs21:48
Stskeepsare the mailing lists turning that toxic that this place feels like heaven compared? ;)21:49
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Stskeepsalmost afraid to catch up on my mail21:50
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* Tm_T huggles Stskeeps and arachnist21:52
Tm_T...and by the end of this month whole meego community AND project has been turned into pink pony worship cult21:53
Tm_Thas/will21:53
Stskeepslike maemo turned into a bacon worshipping cult21:53
leinirMmm, bacon21:55
bva2I prefer pink ponys21:55
leinirPink pony bacon21:55
uhsfmee too, i'm vegan21:55
uhsfBaDa, ChumBy, MaeMo, MeeGo, MobLin, MyLo21:55
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* CosmoHill hugs arachnist 21:55
arachnist:)21:56
CosmoHilli brought hugs to the #lfs-support :D21:56
RST38hMaeblin.21:57
Stskeepsalso, since when was Maemo a open community projet?21:58
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CosmoHillsince monday21:58
Stskeepsare these people delusional about how maemo was developed?21:58
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uhsfMaeblin sound too much like that Chuck Berry song.21:58
CosmoHilli'd never heard of maemo until tuesday21:59
CosmoHillI still can't spell it, i have to copy someone else's spelling21:59
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simula_hahaha21:59
suihkulokkiStskeeps: according to a video I watched earlier this week, the brain switches the logical part off when onefeels threatened21:59
CosmoHillso if i ask about the nokia project or "the non-moblin" i mean maemo22:00
RST38hMa eBlin22:00
Stskeepssuihkulokki: that would explain it, ues22:00
CosmoHillRST38h: that sounds like a cat22:00
Stskeepsyes22:00
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lcukStskeeps, turned?22:04
lcuki believe it was baconified long before i arrived22:04
lcuki just rendered it22:04
RST38hCosmoHill: Sounds way different, for people with different backgrounds22:04
CosmoHillI read a comic with a cat called Eben in itr22:05
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Bva_What was the URL of the meego repository egain?22:06
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CosmoHilli didn't think there was one yet22:06
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Bva_I mean the one were all the moblin packages where22:07
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TimRiker~save22:08
infobotsaved user and chan files22:08
TimRiker~logs22:08
infobotAll conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged.22:08
th0br0Bva_: repo.meego.com22:08
Stskeepsthanks22:08
TimRiker~lart DocScrutinizer22:09
* infobot chops DocScrutinizer in half with a free Solaris 7 CD22:09
rwhitbyTimRiker: earlier logs are at logs.nslu2-linux.org if you want to grab them22:09
th0br0 so why is this line not logged, duh!22:09
DocScrutinizerTimRiker: heh :-D22:09
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RST38hbecause you are not worthy to be logged22:09
* RST38h cackles evilly22:09
villemvanyone listened to latest linux outlaws22:09
villemvannoying fud about meego22:09
TimRiker th0br0, so you can type that sekrit 1337 stuph22:10
CosmoHillfud?22:10
th0br0 \/\/007. 1 4|\/| 50 |33722:10
villemvyou know, "maemo looked promising and now they are killing it"22:10
lcukso we have 2 logbots?22:10
villemvnokia totally screwed their developers22:10
villemvetc etc22:10
Stskeepsi wonder if we had a summit soon that there would be fistfights over rpm vs deb22:11
RST38hbring a few molotovs just in case22:12
dl9pfsumo22:12
villemvthe show (outlaws) at least didn't go to deb/rpm thing22:12
th0br0that would be funny. i'd love to watch that.22:12
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RST38hIn fact, there is a Maemo developer training summit in Moscow next month22:13
StskeepsRST38h: raise the topic and grab popcorn22:13
* RST38h Stskeeps: Hey, I cannot22:13
villemvhand out armbands with rpm / deb colors22:13
TimRikerlcuk, seems so for the moment anyway.22:13
lcukwhich weapons are you choosing22:14
DocScrutinizerlcuk: infobot is much more than a mere logbot22:14
lcukand where can i get popcorn from22:14
RST38hStskeeps: I actually asked my people to avoid mentioning employer22:14
* TimRiker does not pick a color. rpm and deb are both bad, just in different ways.22:14
villemv"we selected rpm because DEB SUCKS"22:14
RST38hStskeeps: (which is ok as we do not officially represent it there)22:14
lcukthis rpm deb seems as serious as the talk.maemo.org coup22:15
lcukthe one where people didnt like the colorscheme22:15
RST38hlcuk: Actually, as long as Maeblin is LSB-compliant, I do not see much of a problem22:15
lcukme neither22:15
RST38hlcuk: It is not like DEB is such a nice and trouble free thing either22:16
lcukthe mechanism to get the code in our hands is mere fluff22:16
villemvand sticky, messy fluff at that22:16
TimRikerwhy not use a zip of a rar of an rpm (cpio +) and a deb (ar + tar) then? that way you'd need _all_ the archive tools to install?22:16
RST38hAnd they are not gonna consider pkg_add, so why even worry?22:16
StskeepsTimRiker: on a 5 1/4 floppy22:16
villemvor those tapes GNU project used to send out22:16
TimRikerStskeeps, need an 8" to fit in my HP.22:17
lcuki said at the start anyway: installshield.  its the future22:17
RST38hlcuk: Or that AmigaOS system, based on LISP22:17
TimRiker5.25 would be fine if it's in apple ][ 144k format.22:17
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lcukRST38h, i cant even remember amiga packaging?22:18
RST38hAnyways, nightly DrWho and sleep.22:18
lcukdid you install stuff22:18
lcukor just run it from floppy22:18
RST38hlcuk: AmigaOS installer used LISP for its scripts22:18
TimRikerlcuk, clearly for an embedded project a war file would be better than installshield22:18
lcukRST38h, ahh i tohught most of the scripting was arexx22:18
RST38hlcuk: And yes, there was installer. Not for games mostly, but for real software22:18
hcarregayes arexx22:18
th0br0why is *vereyone* *everywhere* talking about AmigaOS... :S22:18
lcukTimRiker, no and if you continue on this route, i shall enforce Visual Basic Package and deployment wizard upon you22:19
RST38hlcuk: arexx was kinda like AmigaOS version of Python+DBus22:19
lcukyeah22:19
lcukapps were developed with dual interfaces22:19
TimRikerI'm voting for unix v5 tar on papertape.22:19
lcukand those that took it seriously really did do wonders22:19
RST38hlcuk: Well, AmigaOS had a lot of things that Unix only gained 5-10 years after AmigaOS died22:19
lcuki arexxed my way out of many problems22:19
RST38hUnfortunately, it was also owned by a company that actively refused to do any business22:20
lcukRST38h, amiga was ahead of its time on many counts22:20
lcuki am pleased with the years i had with it22:20
RST38hAnyways, sleep.22:21
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TimRiker~rot13 TimRiker22:39
infobotGvzEvxre22:39
inz~doublerot13 foo22:39
ShadowJKyou need quad rounds of rot13 to be sure22:39
inztrue22:40
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TimRiker~rot26 ShadowJK22:41
infobotShadowJK22:41
Tereskahi22:41
TimRiker~reverse ShadowJK22:41
Tereskai have some problems with QT Creator on Windows platform22:41
infobotKJwodahS22:41
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* TimRiker stop playing with the bot.22:41
TimRiker:)22:41
Tm_Tglad there's http://www.meegos.com/22:41
Tereskai've created gui application :) empty one22:41
Tereskaand i have huge amount of errors on build22:42
thiago_homeTereska: you can ask in #qt or #qt-creator too, but what's the issue?22:42
thiago_homewhat's the first error?22:42
inz~rot52 foo22:42
infobotfoo22:42
inzSo you can do quad, great to know22:42
Tereskac:\sdk\qt\2010.01\mingw\bin\../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.4.0/include/c++/string:40: error: bits/c++config.h: No such file or directory22:43
Tereskabut there is one :)22:43
* thiago_home points out that the Norwegian alphabet has 29 letters22:43
thiago_homeTereska: your mingw isn't properly installed...22:43
Tereskai've set QT framework to be 4.6.1 in Options/QT422:43
Bva_Tereska I would advice you to remove and reïntall with normal options and try egain22:44
MisterNthiago_home: the german alphabet has 30. we win.22:44
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Tereskai try. but install process is very easy... you know :) next next next ;)22:45
Tereskaon my mac everything is OK22:45
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thiago_homeTereska: where is that file (c++config.h) ?22:45
thiago_homeMisterN: does ä count as a separate letter from a"?22:45
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vmlemon_Wow, that crappy site slows FireFox to a crawl on my machine22:46
MisterNthiago_home: ???22:46
MisterNthiago_home: a" is two letters :P22:46
thiago_homeMisterN: I meant a, sorry. The " was an accident.22:46
MisterNthiago_home: yes of course a is different from ä22:46
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Tereskathere are @ C:\SDK\Qt\2010.01\mingw\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.4.0\include\c++\bits22:47
thiago_homeMisterN: different place in the alphabet? Or sorted as ae ?22:47
thiago_homeTereska: how about c++config.h ?22:47
villemvonly norwegians combine ae22:47
MisterNthiago_home: sorted as ae, normally.22:47
Stskeepsvillemv: and danes22:48
thiago_homeæ is a separate letter for Norwegians, sorted at the end of the alphabet, before ø and å22:48
villemvMisterN: isn't ä at the end of alphabet?22:48
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thiago_homewhich makes for funny sorting from A to AA22:48
MisterNvillemv: not in german dictionaries.22:48
villemvok, danes too22:48
MisterNthiago_home: but ä is a distinct letter anyways22:48
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MisterNit's simply not the same as a22:49
Tereskathere is one @ C:\sdk\Qt\2010.01\mingw\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.4.0\include\c++\mingw32\bits\c++config22:49
villemvweird. so germans sort the alphabet differently from finns and swedes22:49
villemvthat's pretty fscked up22:49
MisterNvillemv: it's not our fault that you northerners do it wrong :P22:49
thiago_homeTereska: thanks22:49
thiago_homeTereska: can you pastebin the output of cpp -v -xc++ ?22:49
villemvMisterN: hey, we are iso-8859-x compliant22:49
DocScrutinizervillemv: no. ae isn't æ22:50
DocScrutinizerae is ä22:50
MisterNae is also æ22:50
MisterN:D22:50
villemvok, I give up in trying to understand what you are on about22:51
Tereskathiago_home: thanks. i can see now what is the problem. i'have DevCpp first in my PATH22:51
MisterNi had a prof whose name was Vœller and i mistakenly wrote Völler. he didn't like that!22:51
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TereskaC:\Users\tereska>cpp -v -xc++22:51
TereskaReading specs from C:/Dev-Cpp/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/3.4.2/specs(...)22:51
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DocScrutinizerthere's no æ in German, so we don't sort the alphabet differently to Finns and Swedish22:51
villemvso in german phonebook äschermeister is before Benedictus?22:51
thiago_homeTereska: you need to ensure taht gcc doesn't interfere22:51
MisterNDocScrutinizer: some names contain these symbols22:51
villemvDocScrutinizer: yes, I was talking about ä22:51
thiago_homeTereska: mingw's gcc 3.4 is not binary compatible with the 4.4 that comes with Qt22:51
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thiago_homeTereska: at least, not in C++22:52
MisterNvillemv: yes.22:52
Tereskaok i try to remove DevCpp from PATH. maybe it helps :) thanks for the tip22:52
villemvMisterN: so you can't just sort lexically by iso-8859-1 then...22:52
DocScrutinizerMisterN: Finnish names ;-)22:52
MisterNvillemv: and it's at the same place as a hypothetical Aeschermeister22:52
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villemvok. have to use that trivia sometimes in a casual conversation22:52
MisterNDocScrutinizer: or maybe from other funny places22:52
MisterNDocScrutinizer: huguenots maybe22:53
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DocScrutinizeranyway collation sequence defined by LOCALE is rather clearly specified22:53
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villemvout of historical interest... when germans were using 8bit encodings, did they manually check for weird characters when sorting?22:57
villemvas opposed to just comparing integer values of chars22:57
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, errr, finns and swedes sort åäö as separate chars at the end of the alphabet23:00
DocScrutinizerhmm, ok. So tjhey definitely have a different collation sequence than Germans23:01
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DocScrutinizerAnyway I don't care. I got LOCALE to sort that out for me23:02
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MisterNvillemv: i guess computers just used the wrong sort order when programmers were lazy23:05
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villemvyeah, I imagine that would have caused a problem of two for systems that were dependent on correct sort order23:06
villemvproblem OR two23:06
MisterNbut i'm really too young to know such things23:06
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Stskeepsah, the wonders of maemo scripts. using run-parts -l, which magically only exists as --list in debianutils -l23:26
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Stskeeps(a busyboxism)23:27
lcukso Stskeeps is it the parameter itself thats missing, or just the shortcut23:29
Stskeepswell, the short version doesn't exist in real debian23:30
Stskeeps(lenny)23:30
lcukand what is expecting it to exist23:31
Stskeeps-l (long version --list)23:31
lcukno, why is that a problem is what i mean.  what are you running thats expecting the short one23:32
StskeepsFremantle on top of Debian 5.0.23:32
Stskeeps(i do have a point with that.)23:32
Stskeeps:P23:32
lcuki was just curious is all23:33
lcukcos things like autotools exists because of all these incompatabilities23:33
lcukthey are known and expected acros sthe board23:33
villemvI guess autotools can't help w/ busybox23:34
Stskeepswell, this problem is cos the scripts relying on being run on busybox23:34
villemvsince normal sbox build env isn't testing stuff w/ busybox23:34
Stskeepswhich is fail :)23:34
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lcukno, but autotools exists solely because of these sorts of incompatabilities in tooling.  to find theres similar things in other commands shouldnt come as a surprise23:35
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villemvautotools exists because of the sins of manking23:35
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DocScrutinizer~lart messybox23:36
* infobot gives messybox an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending messybox to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple23:36
villemv"yes, I have a fortran compiler. Why are yo asking?"23:36
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