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| okias | Hey guys, what about N900? | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| okias | I can't hear any news, what happening these days (except inclusion in mainline kernel) ? | 00:11 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | what about it? | 00:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | inclusion into mainline kernel would be already really great news | 01:43 |
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| okias | DocScrutinizer05: my question heads to community, where it lives? should I take some rss from somewhere or fb/g+ ? | 01:52 |
| okias | I don't want let N900 die now | 01:52 |
| okias | but I don't feel like it has healty ecosystem right now :D | 01:52 |
| okias | or I missing it, which is also probably | 01:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | #maemo, http://talk.maemo.org | 02:06 |
| sixwheeledbeast | use TMO and IRC this is where maemo is most active | 02:07 |
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| okias | did you tried some Qt5 based webkit on N900? does it make sense? | 02:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | okias: no Qt5 on maemo afaik | 02:50 |
| bencoh | qt4 is slow enough as it is I should say 0:) | 02:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yup | 02:50 |
| bencoh | (see the work from nemomobile for instance) | 02:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh. Seems whole industry is going to consider everything being a webbrowser | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | insane | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly caused by massive excess supply of labour for web-programmers, and lack of any *real programmers* | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so, who cares when we need a quad core and 8GB of RAM, when only our 1500USD/month web-programmer can do the job in 6 weeks, instead of a real programmer taking 8 weeks and 10 times the money | 02:54 |
| okias | DocScrutinizer05: well, on desktop Qt5 seems much better responsive than Qt4 | 02:57 |
| okias | on X & also on wayland | 02:57 |
| okias | (weston concretly) | 02:57 |
| okias | so, people say it's bloated.. but at they seems to care about performance | 02:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably the browser client responsible for rendering is already preloaded, with all the screens already in cache ;-P | 02:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when every app is only another "server" connecting to the already running "client" browser process that renders and displays the GUI, then no surprise it's fast at startup | 03:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I say *when*, I have no clue how that stuff actually works internally | 03:00 |
| okias | DocScrutinizer05: qt5 should be same as qt4, so classic app | 03:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, so it's not QML ? | 03:01 |
| okias | DocScrutinizer05: of course UI is abstracted little bit, but that seems file (different screen size, rotation) | 03:01 |
| okias | it's QML :D | 03:01 |
| okias | s/file/fine/ | 03:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aiui QML is basically HTML | 03:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | more or less | 03:01 |
| merlin1991 | the qt5 qml renderer is a totally new pipeline compared to the qt4 one | 03:02 |
| merlin1991 | and also nope | 03:02 |
| merlin1991 | qml != html on so many levels | 03:02 |
| okias | we run browser anyway.. there is not much use these days without browser :( | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha | 03:02 |
| merlin1991 | the only thing they have in common is javascript | 03:02 |
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| okias | so, it can have html/xml parser already loaded in memory | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OUUUUUUUUUuuuUUUCH | 03:02 |
| okias | ;) | 03:03 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: meaning javascript the language, not javascript the dom api | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so it's a renderer anyway | 03:03 |
| okias | btw. did you guys tried measure, how much take gtk vs qt and pygtk vs pyqt on n900? | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even with a matching whalecrap scripting language | 03:04 |
| okias | I guess it running both at same time (as there is mix of qt/gtk apps) | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aka "a browser" | 03:04 |
| merlin1991 | well I never touched pyqt only pyside, and that is slooooooow | 03:04 |
| okias | well, that may be because python :D | 03:04 |
| merlin1991 | nope | 03:04 |
| merlin1991 | the thing that takes forever is the startup | 03:05 |
| merlin1991 | which essentially is the linker resolving ALL the Qt symbols when you do import pyside ... | 03:05 |
| merlin1991 | err not linker but loader, but you get the picture | 03:05 |
| okias | get it | 03:07 |
| okias | well, I think write anything for low-memory mobile device in python is crazy | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gotta love OO. Not only takes it ages to instantiate all objects at startup. even better: it takes almost as long (or even longer) on shutdown to run every ~destructor. vlosing a huge ram footprint Konqueror can take ages, while a kill -9 does same job in milliseconds | 03:07 |
| bencoh | :)) | 03:07 |
| okias | Konqueror, there is anyone who use that these days? | 03:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 03:08 |
| okias | with kwebkit kpart? | 03:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with lots of goodies other shit never heard about | 03:09 |
| bencoh | like ? | 03:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like user defined services | 03:09 |
| bencoh | what is it ? | 03:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, I knew he's say that ;-P | 03:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mailto: is a service that's not exactly user defined | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gg: for "http://google.com/q=$1" is user defined | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly beats QML hands down X-P | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then there are all those nice plugins for embedded display, like kate which even allows editing *and storing* files in provser | 03:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, *browser* | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course with syntax highlight and all | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | absolutely natural handling of e.g sftp:// | 03:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I got my N900 filesystem in Konqueror as a bookmark | 03:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | name: N900 location: sftp://root@iron900/root | 03:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one click and I'm renaming and deleting files on N900, and copying files and dirs to and from it to *any* other location, even my web server box at cloud-7.de | 03:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since, you guessed it, sftp://maemo.cloud-7.de is just another bookmark in konqueror | 03:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I created http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/session-log_enable-catalogs_README.txt via konqueror context menu "new -> textfile", then opened it in konqueror via "open with: kate" | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kate, on ^S, saves the file directly to the webserver box | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I admit a lot of that magic happens via kio_* daemons | 03:25 |
| okias | well, dolphin can do that out-of-box too :) it's all kio | 03:27 |
| okias | and that's why I love KDE | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I anyway can't see any other tool that would allow me to browse a remote sftp:// filesystem, and open files there in local editor, and save them to remote after editing | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dolphin is retarded | 03:27 |
| okias | I'd like see some kind of working KDE on N900, but that dream already passed :( | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dolphin also can't render html files I click on | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess dolphin *could* open FF to do that | 03:31 |
| bencoh | talking of whic ... any tried (the defunct) konqeror/embedded on the n900 ? | 03:32 |
| bencoh | anyone* | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | never heard about | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd guess on 800*480 - minus systray - it would be rather useless anyway | 03:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not that you couldn't tweak it to do some semi-useful work with it on such a screen | 03:33 |
| bencoh | it used to have "kiosque" mode | 03:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the nice thing about KDE being that you can configure virtually *everything* | 03:34 |
| bencoh | actually I tried it a long time ago on some lowres/MIPS device | 03:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | time for killing nepomuk again... ;-P | 03:35 |
| bencoh | :] | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/4b9c2d2c4b | 03:36 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 finally has to get around to setting up a cronjob for this | 03:38 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not that other crap works that flawless, regarding RAM footprint: http://wstaw.org/m/2014/04/17/plasma-desktopS17816.png | 03:40 |
| dos1 | I just disabled nepomuk, as I don't use it anyway | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | breaks kmail, no more search, no addresses | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | #kde tells me "wait for kde4.13! Nepomuk is dead!" | 03:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 03:43 |
| dos1 | oh; I didn't care as I don't use kmail as well ;) | 03:43 |
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| dos1 | yeah, they're replacing it with something simplier afaik | 03:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then OTOH knotify4 113MB RAM, *really* now? WHAT FOR? | 03:44 |
| dos1 | baloo | 03:44 |
| okias | DocScrutinizer05: 5.1 | 03:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 03:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a joke? | 03:45 |
| okias | no, my Gentoo | 03:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh | 03:46 |
| okias | I could probably run my whole full-featured KDE on N900 :D | 03:46 |
| dos1 | knotify4 - 18.5 MB here | 03:46 |
| okias | 4.12.6 now, updating to 4.13.0 | 03:46 |
| okias | *updating right now | 03:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: still too much | 03:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think I will go blame PukeAudio | 03:47 |
| dos1 | 7.6 MB of it shared | 03:47 |
| dos1 | no pulseaudio here as well :) | 03:48 |
| okias | DocScrutinizer05: Pulseaudio here | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | makes a lot of sense | 03:48 |
| okias | but still 5.1M ;) | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, when I start up session, it's like 1.5MB | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or less | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it "memleaks" | 03:49 |
| okias | DocScrutinizer05: yes, that is big problem of knotify :( | 03:49 |
| dos1 | yeah, probably | 03:49 |
| dos1 | indeed, my session is pretty young atm - 18 days | 03:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | watch CPU-time, I bet it's like 30MB per minute of CPU time | 03:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | same with konqueror when running JS on a website | 03:51 |
| dos1 | 29 min | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after a few days you need to close the window or your RAM is getting a rare resource | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WUT, yout knotify ate 29min of CPU? | 03:52 |
| dos1 | s/min/sec/ - seems it's time to go to bed, I was pretty sure that dot was a colon :) | 03:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 03:55 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 frowns at "Phonon backend: VLC" | 03:56 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really WTF? Phonon, my ass | 03:56 |
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| dos1 | gstreamer here | 03:56 |
| dos1 | but I have one very annoying bug with phonon I couldn't tackle yet | 03:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I should try gstreamer | 03:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | phonon is maximum useless crap | 03:57 |
| dos1 | I have speakers connected to monitor, and providing sound to it via hdmi | 03:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a audio api wrapper around a soundserver for a stremer for a soundserver for a proper audio stack for the soundcard hardware | 03:58 |
| dos1 | as I didn't want pulseaudio I have set up alsa device with dmix for hdmi | 03:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds reasonable | 03:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since PA is | 03:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~poettering | 03:59 |
| infobot | 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'' | 03:59 |
| dos1 | and everything is fine, music plays, I can switch devices in phonon settings between hdmi and internal sound card and it works | 03:59 |
| dos1 | but when I play music via phonon app, and some notification plays, the music switches to internal | 04:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | friggin PA is absolutely useless as soon as audio config gets a tad more complex than "line out via standard codec" | 04:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in a *decent* system you'd define the correct ALSA device *inside* your mp3-player config, and profit | 04:02 |
| dos1 | actually, I tried PA few times and never had problems with configuring it as I want | 04:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | huh? | 04:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please, educate me, oh master! | 04:02 |
| dos1 | but I *always* had some problems with implementation bugs, and I always rageuninstalled it after some time :P | 04:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wouldn't even know how to configure PA so twinke ringtone goes to speakers audiocard while calls audio goes to headset | 04:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not even to think about phonon | 04:04 |
| dos1 | for instance, using audacity with pulseaudio was always completely unreliable on my machine, no matter what I tried | 04:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually I think I don't know of a single app that has PA config settings | 04:05 |
| dos1 | well, in PA you're rather supposed to use mixer and its global settings for things like that | 04:05 |
| dos1 | you can configure per-application streams to go to specific device | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly, it completely eludes me what for you need PA anyway | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't see how I would configure mixer / PA for an app that's not recently playing audio | 04:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that aside, even when it would be possible, it feels idiotic | 04:07 |
| okias | btw. did you seen this? http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html | 04:07 |
| okias | this maybe useful for n900 | 04:08 |
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| dos1 | I always liked it's network-transparent approach, I was trying few times to get seemless audio switch between n900 and laptop, or seamless streaming from raspberry pi | 04:08 |
| dos1 | but even though it was marketed as a great feature of pulseaudio when it was being introduced everywhere, it's obviously forgotten and second-tier and also, I never managed to get it right thanks to bugs ;P | 04:09 |
| dos1 | some of them were already reported for a looong time | 04:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and ALSA is most likely better on that too | 04:10 |
| okias | oh, I found on forum that Skry tried musl on n900 | 04:10 |
| dos1 | but tbh it's been a while since I tried pulseaudio the last time | 04:10 |
| dos1 | so maaaaaybeeeee it's a bit better now | 04:11 |
| dos1 | maybe :P | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the *only* thing that ALSA admittedly can't do OOTB is seamless switching from one device to another | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but you can really ask if that's a flaw or rather a feature | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all in virtually every case it's desirable that the *app* gets to know about such change in audio sink and the associated properties | 04:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and in real live there's no such thing like "seamless switching of audio between two sinks" | 04:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you *always* get some discontinuity | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unless you do proper crossfade between two alternative cables to same amp | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which I for the life of mine can't come up with any RL usecase for | 04:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even PA must fill buffers of the new audiocard to use as sink | 04:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in ALSA I suggested a way to handle such "seamless handover" between two defined and configured audio sinks. You simply split the stream and feed it to both sinks, and you mute one of them | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for "handover" you simply unmute the "new" muted one, and mute the "old" one | 04:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | per-app volume controls in mixer: no problem with ALSA. Just with ALSA they are persistent, so you can adjust them *before* your audio starts playback | 04:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | mixing concurrent audio? dmix did it before Poettering even started to wonder if it works, and it actually worked better at that time than PA does nowadays | 04:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | latencies? TZZZ, every ALSA plugin has absolutely defined latency, easy to calculate, you don't even need any code to do this at runtime | 04:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but Poettering went "DAMN! how do I query latency of the ALSA stack? No function call to do that! I need to invent something where you actually can query the latency, since otherwise how is shit supposed to work??" | 04:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | result: sometimes I had latencies of 46 HOURS in PA - no kidding! | 04:25 |
| dos1 | I can see some value in PA-style handling of devices and handovers - with PA it is (should be) easy to just connect random usb headphones and instantly switch everything to it | 04:27 |
| dos1 | with pure alsa, especially when you didn't fine-tune your configs, it might be not so easy | 04:27 |
| dos1 | but it's not enough to make me want to struggle with pulseaudio and its issues one after another :P | 04:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | instantly switch everything to it, and enjoy earshot when next notification comes in, thanks to no way to configure volume beforehand | 04:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 04:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a moot argument | 04:31 |
| dos1 | any time I gave pulseaudio a chance I disabled that brain damaged windows-style volume mangling feature | 04:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you need proper set up for quite a number of things (like kernel drivers) anyway, or otherwise your USB headset will do nothing at all | 04:32 |
| dos1 | I'm usually running all the apps at maximum volume and just adjusting the main controls | 04:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, please don't use alien idioms | 04:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;) | 04:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what's a "windows-style volume mangling feature"? | 04:33 |
| dos1 | I hate that "feature" where when I have music at say, 30%, and main volume at 50%, and then when I increase the volume of music to 80% main volume increases too | 04:33 |
| dos1 | that's default pulseaudio behaviour | 04:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMG | 04:34 |
| dos1 | by default, each app-volume is relative to 100% of the device max | 04:34 |
| dos1 | I always disable that, so each app-volume is relative to the volume capped by main volume control | 04:35 |
| dos1 | so no earshot notifications for me, as I usually keep all app-volumes at 100% ;) | 04:36 |
| dos1 | and well, usb headsets seem to be handled well by udev etc. these days | 04:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but you still dunno if your USB hs is maybe 10 times louder than your current speakers | 04:37 |
| dos1 | it just worked | 04:37 |
| dos1 | yep, but I never put headphones on my head before music starts playing | 04:38 |
| dos1 | no matter if I do handover or just start to play ;) | 04:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and claiming udev handles USB hs great is just moot invalid argument, since you can as well say "ok, when somebody would just take a bit of care then ALSA config was equally working OOTB for USB hs" | 04:39 |
| dos1 | of course | 04:39 |
| dos1 | the thing is, for some reason noone took a bit of care for having that out of box in popular distros | 04:40 |
| dos1 | before Poettering, that is | 04:40 |
| dos1 | and now we have to deal with his crap :P | 04:40 |
| dos1 | (that is, uninstalling and reconfiguring audio after default distro installation ;)) | 04:41 |
| dos1 | ok, I'm out, good night o/ | 04:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly, writing a PCM plugin for ALSA that would protect the app from a device-vanished error coming up from down the ALSA stack, and rather simply opens same stack/device again, so another plugin further down could open another alternative audiocard when you unplug or unload the current one, that's no rocket science and whould've made PA completely redundant dispensible crap from very beginning | 04:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | n8 dos1 | 04:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but IIRC ~poettering 's main concern that lead to invention of PA been the "unpredictable latency" of ALSA - a complete aberration | 04:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | plus the allegedly not working or even missing mixing, dunno if he never heard of dmix or simply was tricked into thinking ALSA didn't know to mix because some distros had dmix not configured in default stack | 04:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc dmix per default came as late as ALSA0.9 | 04:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it existed way longer | 04:47 |
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| Apic | A wonderful nice splendid gorgeous Thursday Morning (UGT) on this fine Boomtime! | 10:10 |
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| merlin1991 | Apic: :) | 12:37 |
| merlin1991 | also morning | 12:38 |
| Apic | BpO]] | 12:38 |
| Apic | B-) even | 12:38 |
| Apic | 2u2 | 12:38 |
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