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| okias | well, it works with gcc 4.7.3, for next time: do not use 4.8.1 for PXA270! | 03:30 |
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| wmarone | wow, pxa270 | 05:30 |
| Snafu777 | Question for the masses here: If you found dns servers that allowed zone transfers, how would u tell the sys admins? | 05:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | okias' story reminds me a lot at the fun we had with kernels for GTA02 at OM. It never really became clear whether it been race conditions or uninitialized vars or use of not properly allocated memory which sometimes just works and sometimes nukes other relevant data/code | 12:44 |
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| sono | well | 14:19 |
| sono | these days we have vastly improved debugging capabilities in the kernel | 14:19 |
| sono | that alone is worth upgrading to mainline | 14:19 |
| sono | it's a bunch of work of course, but it's beneficial for all ports | 14:20 |
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| Ken-Young | Is there a time of day during which traffic tends to peak on this channel? Is there any official meet-up time during which Fremantle porting issues are discussed? | 16:01 |
| merlin1991 | traffic peeks between 17 and 22 CET | 16:04 |
| merlin1991 | official meet up are non-existant | 16:04 |
| Ken-Young | merlin1991, Thanks! | 16:05 |
| merlin1991 | but in general, if you have ideas questions, ... just voice them, most people read the backscroll when they arrive | 16:08 |
| Ken-Young | OK. I'd like to work on the Fremantle Porting Project, but I really don't know where to start. I'm a decent C programmer (I think), I'm fairly familiar with Linux and I've written a few apps for the N900. | 16:10 |
| Ken-Young | But I dont know if I can do anything useeful for the porting project, or how to get started on it. | 16:10 |
| Ken-Young | Is the main effort to write new source code files to replace the closed-source libraries? | 16:11 |
| Ken-Young | If so, how do people typically do that? | 16:11 |
| merlin1991 | afaik it mostly replaceing the closed bits | 16:11 |
| merlin1991 | also freemangordon and Pali are working on getting a recent kernel to work with all the hw | 16:12 |
| Ken-Young | Do you try to find documentation on the functions the library supplies? Do you disassemble the library? | 16:12 |
| merlin1991 | everything | 16:12 |
| Ken-Young | Has anyone written up a description of how they successfully replaced a closed-source library? | 16:13 |
| merlin1991 | don't think so | 16:13 |
| Ken-Young | Is there coordination so that somebody is "assigned" a piece of the project to work on, so that there is not uncoordinated duplication of effort? | 16:14 |
| Ken-Young | Have the closed bits been prioritized in some way? SUrely not all the closed pieces are considered of equal importance... | 16:15 |
| merlin1991 | there's http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages | 16:15 |
| merlin1991 | regarding assinging, the people who work on stuff just pick what they want and most of the time announce it in here | 16:16 |
| merlin1991 | but since it's only Pali freemangordon and jonwil there was no real coordination necessary yet | 16:17 |
| merlin1991 | Raimu-X: yep there a problem with diffs on regular extras devel, the update interval makes no sense, a diff would always contain 1 added packge | 16:18 |
| Ken-Young | merlin1991, So is the color-coding on that web page Green=Done, Red=NotDone and White (no color)=NotStarted ? | 16:23 |
| merlin1991 | from the top of the page: | 16:24 |
| merlin1991 | Green color means that package is working and is fully API/ABI compatible with closed one which is available in SSU repository. It can be same version (opened by Nokia on gitorious) or new FOSS replacement. | 16:24 |
| merlin1991 | Red seem to be possible GPL violations | 16:25 |
| Ken-Young | No color = nothing done yet? | 16:26 |
| Ken-Young | It's hard to imagine that anyone will really bother working on, for example, amazon-installer. | 16:27 |
| merlin1991 | not really, ie jonwil worked on the csd bits alreay, but it still has no colour | 16:27 |
| merlin1991 | well the list is a complete list of what is in maemo, that's why there is a "Needed For N900" column | 16:28 |
| merlin1991 | sadly the Needed For Maemo column isn't filled in yet | 16:28 |
| Ken-Young | Is there a "fully open" distribution of Maemo available that one could download to a spare N900 and test out, to see what functionality is missing/broken? | 16:30 |
| Ken-Young | Has anyone tried to contact Nokia about the GPL code for which sources don't seem to be available? | 16:31 |
| merlin1991 | I think Pali contactetd nokia about all the GPL bits, a "fully open" distribution wasn't attempted yet | 16:32 |
| merlin1991 | would be interesting though | 16:32 |
| kolp | Isn't that what the debian-on-n900 project is after? | 16:33 |
| kolp | Not based on maemo, though... | 16:33 |
| Ken-Young | Yeah, if one had the current open version installed on a test N900, it might help clarify what remaining closed-bit parts are the most important conversion candidates. | 16:33 |
| Ken-Young | And it could be a starting point for the neo900 distribution. | 16:34 |
| merlin1991 | heh, I think I'll look into that, shouldn't be too hard to hack together | 16:35 |
| * merlin1991 just wonders how to set up the rootfs | 16:38 | |
| merlin1991 | I guess all debs into a folder and dpkg --unpack over them is the fastest way | 16:39 |
| Ken-Young | merlin1991, Would it make sense to start with a very minimal Debian distribution, and then modify it towards Maemo? My impression is that everyone hates busybox anyway, maybe the rootfs should be built with real gnu utilities instead. | 16:42 |
| merlin1991 | yes everyone hates busybox, but in order to have that fancy distribution we need hw that supports it, untill then we do have the rootfs problem | 16:42 |
| merlin1991 | and then there is the idea of backwards compatability with n900 sw | 16:43 |
| merlin1991 | and also I'm no spokesmen for the neo900 project, I'm just repeating what I picked up | 16:44 |
| merlin1991 | actually I don't even know who's going to be the head of the neo900 distribution | 16:44 |
| Ken-Young | But I use real GNU utilities instead of busybox already on my N900, because I use EasyDebian. There's no porting that needs to be done to get real "ls" rather than busybox to work on an N900, is there? | 16:44 |
| merlin1991 | sure there is absolutely no porting that needs to be done | 16:45 |
| merlin1991 | but busybox is there because of size contrains | 16:45 |
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| merlin1991 | hey Pali please read the backlog and correct me where I was wrong and/or add info :) | 16:45 |
| Ken-Young | Could the rootfs just contain the GNU utilities needed to boot the OS, and the rest of the GNU utilities could be put under /opt ? | 16:46 |
| merlin1991 | Ken-Young: it would be even possible to have a proper seperate /usr outside the rootfs | 16:47 |
| merlin1991 | only that since it is a phone it has to have functionality in a rootfs only case like emergency calls | 16:47 |
| merlin1991 | which esentially means 90% of the system must be able to boot from rootfs | 16:47 |
| merlin1991 | btw I once had the case where the eMMC broke in my n900, it boots perfectly fine all the way into hildon desktop, only can do almost nothing then thanks to no swap | 16:48 |
| merlin1991 | s/only can/only you can/ | 16:49 |
| infobot | merlin1991 meant: btw I once had the case where the eMMC broke in my n900, it boots perfectly fine all the way into hildon desktop, only you can do almost nothing then thanks to no swap | 16:49 |
| Ken-Young | merlin1991, Thanks for the info. | 16:50 |
| merlin1991 | if you approach the problem from the view point that it just should work, then ofc you can slap all kinds of stuff into the system | 16:50 |
| merlin1991 | but it makes setting up a fresh install quite hard | 16:50 |
| merlin1991 | you'd have to somehow fill the eMMC with the stuff you need after you flashed the rootfs | 16:50 |
| merlin1991 | or you need to provide Images for both which then would erase user data on reflash | 16:51 |
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| merlin1991 | which was one of the coolest features in the n900, reflash the "full" system but only overwrite the rootfs in the process | 16:51 |
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| Ken-Young | It would seem to me that it would be worth the effort to start trying to build our one flashable images, so that wee can start making fully open N900s, just for testing purposes. | 16:55 |
| Ken-Young | s/one/own/ | 16:55 |
| infobot | Ken-Young meant: It would seem to me that it would be worth the effort to start trying to build our own flashable images, so that wee can start making fully open N900s, just for testing purposes. | 16:55 |
| Ken-Young | Even if the resulting N900 was a brick, we might learn what needs to be done next. | 16:56 |
| merlin1991 | yeah, I'm currently running in circles how to achieve it, but my best bet is to adapt that script that exists in debian which you can use to build new sb2 targets | 17:00 |
| merlin1991 | I forgot the name though | 17:00 |
| merlin1991 | take that script, modify it to use the metapackge as base list for packages to install, and then run it against a copy of the ssu repo that is free only | 17:01 |
| Ken-Young | merlin1991, Has the Fremantle Porting Project specified what the project's product is supposed to ultimately be? Is it indistinguishable from CSSU, or are they trying to make a distribution that you would build yourself in the scratchbox environment, and then flash? | 17:07 |
| merlin1991 | the project as such does not really exist, it's just a name on top of all the individual efforts | 17:10 |
| merlin1991 | otherwise it would have at least a wiki page with some info :D | 17:10 |
| merlin1991 | Afaik the product is supposed to be a system that runs on a recent kernel on the neo900 hw and is backwards compatible to fremantle on the n900 | 17:11 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: is the above correct? | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mompl | 17:12 |
| merlin1991 | actually the thread title on tmo says it all 'the Fremantle Porting Task Force, or "how to run maemo on Neo900"' (see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 ) | 17:13 |
| merlin1991 | so I guess the "Produkt" will be a flashable image for the neo900 | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: how far back I need to read backscroll? | 17:14 |
| merlin1991 | like 3 lines :) | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, correct | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FPTF is NOT targeting at a distinguished distro | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a sort of platform adaption package on top of fremantle stock, similar in operation principles to any other CSSU flavor | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | plus it comes with its own kernel, which *so far* is unique for CSSU flavours | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | userland and kernel API shall be 100% compatible | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the system may introduce some adaptions | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | either in form of patched libraries, or in form of compatibility layers | 17:19 |
| Ken-Young | Would it make sense to start making a fully open Maemo distribution for a stock Beagleboard then, or have things already progressed further than that? | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, absolutely | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | makes sense | 17:20 |
| Ken-Young | OK, Maybe *that's* where I could jump in and try to help. | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | much appreciated | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 17:21 |
| Ken-Young | Gotta get me a Beagleboard... | 17:21 |
| merlin1991 | well I did like the idea of a flashable n900 image aswell | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | try to get one with DM3730 and 1GB of RAM | 17:22 |
| merlin1991 | just sayin ;) | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *cough* | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 512MB RAM | 17:22 |
| Ken-Young | But if the real target is a neo900, then a Beagleboard is a better starting place, right? | 17:22 |
| Ken-Young | (better than N900) | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a DM3730 board is for sure the better starting point, in some regards | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in other regards the N900 is closer to the Neo900 than all the existing DM3730 boards | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when it comes to display and most of the peripherals | 17:24 |
| Ken-Young | Obviously it would be of no use for the Camera bits, etc, but at least the basic OS, WiFi etc could be tested on a Beagleboard. | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though WiFi subject to change | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but that's marginal | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | USB for example should be optimally testable on BB | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since we won't perpetuate N900 USB abomination | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we will use 100% BB design for USB | 17:26 |
| merlin1991 | but it was so great (not) | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, afk, bbl (+5h) | 17:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | charging in BB is also more like Neo900 than N900's is | 17:29 |
| Ken-Young | OK, I guess I'll get a BB, and try to start making a distro that could ultimately be Maemo for the neo900. | 17:31 |
| Ken-Young | DocScrutinizer05, Do you know of a BB model number that would be closest to what will reside in the neo900, or are they all the same? | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, nfc | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | never looked closely into BB | 17:33 |
| Ken-Young | But isn't the neo900 essentially a BB put into an N900 case, or am I completely clueless here? | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but I heard they changed/upgraded design several times, from "like N900" to "like Neo900" | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the latest one supposed to have DM3730 afaik | 17:35 |
| Ken-Young | Would it be better to get a gta04, and start working from that base? | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and no, we gonna put a gta04 into a N900 case, not a BB | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, that would be better, alas there are pretty few gta04 available | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all sold out ;-) | 17:35 |
| Ken-Young | gta04s are still listed on the Golden D. page - do you know if they really still have some to sell? | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but there are a few available that have "minor" defects, like WLAN, GSM, BT, whatever not functioning | 17:36 |
| Ken-Young | OK, I guess I should contact G.D., and see what they've got that they might sell me. | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gta04 listed but not "on stok" | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, go ahead, by all means | 17:37 |
| Ken-Young | Thanks. That'll be a good starting point for me. | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tell Nikolaus I sent you ;-) | 17:38 |
| Ken-Young | Will do! | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | state clearly you need the device for Neo900-targeted OS/fremantle development | 17:39 |
| Ken-Young | Yes, I'll try to explain exactly what I'm trying to do. Obviously I care nothing about the case, the display could be scratched or have bad pixels, etc. He's probably got a lemon like that somewhere. | 17:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a list with defective devices available iirc | 18:05 |
| Ken-Young | I sent Nikolaus a note... | 18:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: do you think we should get infra (repos etc) for maemo-cssu/fremantle/porting/(gta04|neo900|n900) ? | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo-cssu/fremantle/porting/n900 would be the free fremantle for N900 | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | neo900 and gta04 accordingly | 18:34 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: what would be the difference between "free" and "non-free"? and what would be the "non-free" one? | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | errrwut? | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | non-free is stock fremantle | 18:35 |
| freemangordon | ah, I see | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the difference is obviously all the blobs replaced or wrapped into compatibility layers | 18:36 |
| freemangordon | system blobs in CSSU? I don;t see a reason why we need yet another repo for that, -devel -testing -stable should be enough IMO | 18:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, porting/n900 is a bit... of lobotomy | 18:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g we'd want to keep any bme-dummy or whatever in that, as well as mce, and we for sure would want to host a cmt/isi solution in there that's working with a USB dongle instead of the embedded BB5 modem | 18:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically think of porting/n900 as the backported porting/neo900 version | 18:40 |
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| freemangordon | hmm, I'd rather take the other approach - take fremantle as it is (in cssu-thumb), put it on neo900 and add/replace whatever needed | 18:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | porting/* is a generic solution to run fremantle on arbitrary platforms. Since "arbitrary platforms" includes N900, we of course expect to see a version of porting-fremantle for neo900 | 18:41 |
| freemangordon | though... | 18:41 |
| freemangordon | maybe your way is better, I have to think about it for a while | 18:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g your 3.19 kernel would live in porting/n900 | 18:42 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, your approach is more generic than mine | 18:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as well as any other hw platform specific adaptions to the basic fremantle (after stripping/patching it to kick out n900 specific proprietary stuff) | 18:43 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 18:44 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: but we will have to fin a way to distribute some "installer", be it generic or platform-dependant | 18:45 |
| freemangordon | *find | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 18:46 |
| freemangordon | and we'll have to migrate CSSU to that infra :( | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | didn't think about any such details yet | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we should discuss it, but not now, my GF kills me | 18:46 |
| freemangordon | heh | 18:46 |
| freemangordon | though I guess she is paitient enough, being your GF :P | 18:47 |
| freemangordon | Pali: do you want to debian package libcal? you know, if it is me to do it, I'll use autotools and you hate them :) | 18:48 |
| Pali | hm, why autotools? | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we need a way to build an image | 18:48 |
| Pali | for one easy oneline Makefile? | 18:48 |
| freemangordon | Pali: no particular reason, it is just what I prefer | 18:49 |
| freemangordon | not saying it is better | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously the flasher approach is not feasible | 18:49 |
| freemangordon | yeah | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ask dos1 how that works on GTA04 | 18:50 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: hmm, wait, why flasher is not an option? | 18:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afaik they install to uSD | 18:50 |
| freemangordon | we can flash a "minimal" fremantle, which supports wifi and install online | 18:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep :-) | 18:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | l8rs | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afk | 18:51 |
| sono | hm, the beaaglebone idea might be worth a shot, tho i only have a black at the moment, i could buy a regular one | 19:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: wazzup? | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/471a155a61 | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | Sorry. Changing IRC clients and had to hop between a couple to get all the data... and of course they were all set to auto-connect by default. :P | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 21:27 |
| Woody14619 | Old client didn't do SASL... :P | 21:27 |
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| okias | Hey guys, when you ported nokia kernel to 2.6.38, I guess you didn't noticed switch from bootmem to LMB? | 22:09 |
| okias | 2.6.36-rc1 | 22:09 |
| okias | Pali: hey, for 2.6.35 it was broken gcc 4.8.1 :) and for 2.6.36 it's LMB change (not friendly to patch code) :) | 22:09 |
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| Pali | I did not used 2.6.38 | 22:12 |
| Pali | so I do not know | 22:12 |
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