| freemangordon | Pali: sent | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Pali | ok | 00:00 |
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| FatPhil | Oh christ - I just did 's/console none/console output/' on /etc/event.d | 11:13 |
| FatPhil | There's a lot of buggy userspace code... | 11:13 |
| FatPhil | this week's mission - get scratchbox up and running... | 11:13 |
| FatPhil | Who maintains scratchbox.org, is it anything to do with you guys? | 11:14 |
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| Pali | DocScrutinizer05: look ^^^^ | 12:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 13:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | scratchbox.org is unmaintained | 13:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're just hosting it | 13:30 |
| jonwil | hmmm, no-one has any feedback on my "closed source packages" list :( | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: not everybody is as fast as you are | 13:35 |
| jonwil | yeah true :) | 13:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's on my todo list | 13:35 |
| jonwil | :) | 13:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but for now | 13:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | COFFEE | 13:36 |
| jonwil | coica-cola > coffee :P | 13:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hot coke? eeew | 13:37 |
| jonwil | if you want coffee because its cold and you want to warm up, that's different | 13:37 |
| jonwil | in that situation, hot chocolate > coffee :) | 13:37 |
| jonwil | Might see which binaries from the "stuff we need to care about" list have x86 versions and whether I can do anything with those | 13:38 |
| jonwil | since x86 is easier to reverse engineer than ARM | 13:38 |
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| kerio | jonwil: redbull has more caffeine | 14:04 |
| jonwil | redbull tastes like crap | 14:06 |
| jonwil | Only caffinated beverage that tastes better than Coca-Cola would be Dr. Pepper | 14:07 |
| jonwil | but unfortunately Dr. Pepper isn't available in Australia anymore | 14:07 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: yes it is | 14:08 |
| kerio | Dr Pepper sucks | 14:08 |
| kerio | it tastes like cough syrup | 14:08 |
| oooaaaooo | kerio: its just cherry coke | 14:08 |
| jonwil | The only Dr Pepper you can get is imported stuff from overseas that costs a fortune | 14:08 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: try the reject shop | 14:09 |
| jonwil | Other problem is that all the imported sodas generally have HFCS in it, not real sugar | 14:10 |
| jonwil | and yes there IS a difference | 14:10 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: says sugar on the back of the can i have in my hand | 14:11 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: send me your address ill post you a couple if you want some real bad | 14:12 |
| jonwil | in any case there isn't a Reject Shop anywhere near where I live | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | don't try to poison me with that Nestle´ crap | 14:12 |
| jonwil | What crap are you referring to? | 14:12 |
| jonwil | Nestle coffee? | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all the non-sugar sweets that make you sick | 14:13 |
| kerio | hfcs isn't really used in europe, is it? | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nutri-sweet and what not | 14:13 |
| oooaaaooo | kerio: i think its mainly an american thing | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | never heard that term | 14:13 |
| oooaaaooo | high fructose corn syrup | 14:13 |
| jonwil | The biggest problem I have with HFCS is that pretty much all the HFCS you see is made from Genetically Modified corn | 14:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can bet on that | 14:14 |
| oooaaaooo | i dont think australia/asia will ever have an issue with real sugar | 14:15 |
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| jonwil | My issue isn't so much that its GM, its the way Monsanto (ab)uses the patent and legal system to attack farmers and to try to take over agriculture in the US | 14:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | USA driven shit is always maximum perverted from what you normally could find in nature | 14:15 |
| oooaaaooo | i dont think maize is a big crop in australasia | 14:15 |
| jonwil | we make enough sugar in the cane fields of QLD that we dont need HFCS | 14:16 |
| oooaaaooo | maize has a historical footing in american(north south and central) society so its natural that they would try to maximize its use | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kill monsanto, with FIRE | 14:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and while you're at it, continue with Nestle´ | 14:17 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: theyd just sue you for using their corn as fuel without paying proper royalties | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi NSA, how's your day? | 14:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~rot13 BOMB | 14:19 |
| infobot | OBZO | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~upsidedown plutonium | 14:19 |
| infobot | ɯnı̣uoʇnƮd | 14:19 |
| jonwil | Nestle is on my (somewhat longish) blacklist of companies/entities I wont have anything to do with if I can at all avoid it. | 14:20 |
| jonwil | Monsanto would be too except that I dont buy Monsanto products and I have no way of 100% avoiding foods containing their crap | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the point | 14:21 |
| oooaaaooo | how do i set my update-check frequency in HAM? everytime i open it it checks for update | 14:24 |
| oooaaaooo | this is very annoying | 14:24 |
| jonwil | I do try to buy Australian product whenever I can since those are less likely to contain GM products | 14:24 |
| kerio | oooaaaooo: check on the wiki, there's a hidden gconf key | 14:24 |
| kerio | set it to a year or something | 14:24 |
| oooaaaooo | k | 14:24 |
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| oooaaaooo | kerio: what keyword should i be searching for? | 14:27 |
| kerio | mmh | 14:27 |
| kerio | ~jrtools | 14:28 |
| infobot | from memory, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 14:28 |
| jonwil | Too bad there are a number of entities I have no choice but to put up with and cant add to my blacklist :( | 14:28 |
| kerio | not there | 14:28 |
| kerio | i think | 14:28 |
| kerio | i don't know, search for "update frequency" or something | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: a lot of your questions are better asked over in #maemo channel | 14:28 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: ok | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~customize | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Disabling_Auto_Updates_Check | 14:30 |
| jonwil | Too bad I cant blacklist our new government and will have to put up with the crappy laws they are no doubt busy thinking up right now :( (oh and for the record, no I did not vote for them :) | 14:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ihyeah aussies have a record to invent really silly laws | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | weren't you the first ones to outlaw incandescent light bulbs? | 14:31 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: well they have a tax to reduce carbon emmissions | 14:32 |
| jonwil | And thats a GOOD thing | 14:32 |
| LinuxCode | 240 Volts incandescent bulbs are banned int eh EU | 14:32 |
| LinuxCode | can still get 12V | 14:32 |
| jonwil | despite what some might say about it | 14:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: and the hugest coal mine world wide | 14:32 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: while their currency is made out of plastic | 14:32 |
| jonwil | Coal is evil | 14:33 |
| jonwil | and its killing the planet | 14:33 |
| LinuxCode | oooaaaooo, dont mock, the Bank of England is thinking about that too | 14:33 |
| LinuxCode | ;-p | 14:33 |
| oooaaaooo | i wouldnt say they have silly laws, just are a very righteous bunch | 14:33 |
| LinuxCode | they last longer | 14:33 |
| LinuxCode | the Ozzies could be laughing all the way | 14:34 |
| LinuxCode | loads of space for wind turbines, solar | 14:34 |
| LinuxCode | they could export all their resources | 14:34 |
| jonwil | our new government has some stupid ideas. Like the idea that buying fishing boats from Indonesian villagers will somehow stop boatpeople | 14:34 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | despite what some may have told you, CFL "green" light is NOT more economic and environment safe than good old incandescent light | 14:34 |
| LinuxCode | jonwil, that sounds stupid | 14:34 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, cflis a bit naff | 14:35 |
| LinuxCode | CFL | 14:35 |
| LinuxCode | LED is now coming | 14:35 |
| LinuxCode | LED really saves you money! | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LED is kinda OK'ish | 14:35 |
| LinuxCode | only if the kelvin value is right | 14:35 |
| LinuxCode | some colours are ghastly | 14:35 |
| jonwil | My own experience is that CFLs DO use less electricity and DO last longer than the old bulbs | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after we poisoned the dumps with mercury and other crap from CFL | 14:35 |
| LinuxCode | depends on the angle and K colour | 14:35 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: exactly | 14:36 |
| LinuxCode | jonwil, yeh but contain mercury etc.. | 14:36 |
| LinuxCode | and still use 20-400 watts | 14:36 |
| LinuxCode | eh 40 | 14:36 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: LED / 3-5 bandgap manufacturing isnt exactly "green" | 14:36 |
| jonwil | CFLs do contain mercury but that's why there are places around here where you can safely recycle them | 14:36 |
| LinuxCode | they say 20 watts or 18, then you put a meter on and it is 25 | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: that too | 14:36 |
| jonwil | IKEA for one has a recycling station for them :) | 14:37 |
| LinuxCode | jonwil, I have not seen on ein the UK ikea | 14:37 |
| * LinuxCode googles | 14:37 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | every such discussion always ignores the dumps of toxic waste at the *factory* building all the chips and shit | 14:37 |
| jonwil | as for the discussion on wind and solar, our new government wants to close down programs designed to encourage renewable energy usage | 14:38 |
| jonwil | I am not 100% sure but I think they want to end the program that gives subsidies to people who put solar panels on their roof | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | same here | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | industry thinks we got enough of them | 14:38 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: http://www.e-wastelandfilm.com/ | 14:40 |
| LinuxCode | they dropped subsidies in the UK | 14:41 |
| LinuxCode | but they reckon solar productions costs will clump the next 10 years | 14:41 |
| LinuxCode | negating why you would need subsidies | 14:41 |
| jonwil | I recon one of the worst things our new government wants to do is to cancel the nice shiny new fiber-to-the-home National Broadband Network and replace it with a crappier fiber-to-the-node network | 14:42 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: thats probably where ikea's recycling program ends up | 14:42 |
| jonwil | Actually I dont think its IKEA that's running it, I think it might be the council that IKEA happens to be in | 14:43 |
| jonwil | so its a council recycle program, not an IKEA one | 14:43 |
| oooaaaooo | jonwil: im pretty sure those ghanaians care ;) | 14:43 |
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| FatPhil | on bulbs: 90% of my electricity bill in winter is electric heating. I demand the right to keep using incandescent lightbulbs, as they are an essential part of my flat's heating. | 14:50 |
| oooaaaooo | FatPhil: do they really emit enough heat to warm up an apartment? | 14:51 |
| oooaaaooo | FatPhil: in winter? | 14:51 |
| FatPhil | oooaaaooo: the "we must ban teh lightbulbs as they're teh wasteful" loons seem to think they emit huge quantities of heat | 14:52 |
| oooaaaooo | FatPhil: do they have proof? | 14:54 |
| oooaaaooo | FatPhil: sorry , i guess they dont...being loons and all | 14:54 |
| oooaaaooo | FatPhil: yeah you know , when i was growing up the biggest environmental "issue" was the hole in the ozone layer | 14:55 |
| oooaaaooo | imagine my shock recently when i heard that it had "fixed" itself | 14:56 |
| oooaaaooo | was it due to the move from CFCs to HCFCs? OR was it just a natural part of earth's atmospherical eccentricity? | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: right on, right on! all the same here | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: I considered building a heating from 200 bulbs for my shower | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: I had to cancel this project | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: my heater uses 2kW and transforms 100% into heat | 14:58 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: you have a sunroof or something? | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo: 20 100W bulbs also eat 2kW, but only create 95% heat and 5% light from it | 14:59 |
| kerio | haha | 14:59 |
| kerio | brightest shower ever | 15:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the 5% light (when not escaping thru window) are also transferred to heat a nanosecond later | 15:00 |
| kerio | do tungsten lightbulbs really only do 5% light? | 15:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I would have dimmed them to 20% | 15:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | shifting the efficiency towards infraread | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only 0.5% visible light then | 15:01 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: do you use one of these:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w | 15:01 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: sounds like you have cardinal grand meters with doge gears and bearings | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aborted it after ~2.4s | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dude, I'm into home automation, and planning to use a heat exchanger for my shower water to reduce the electric energy eaten by my computer controled Stiebel Eltron water heater | 15:03 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: that was a joke played on the industry by rockwell | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I'm not yet in the mood for jokes by industry | 15:04 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboencabulator | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the URL makes me want to ignore I ever seen it | 15:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hey, they tried to sell incandescent as heating devices here, they cot sued out of business | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/cot/got/ | 15:06 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: hey, they tried to sell incandescent as heating devices here, they got sued out of business | 15:06 |
| oooaaaooo | DocScrutinizer05: ignorance and the prevalence of technobable is actually one of key ideas behind the 1944 paper that inspired that rockwell segment | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about right | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | luckily halogen incandescent still allowed here | 15:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sucker idiots. When they think they need to do sth, get 100% tax on incandescent, NOT _forbid_ it! | 15:08 |
| freemangordon | what is funny, is that "ordinary" incandescent bulbs are forbidden here, but still in sale. Despite we're supposed to be EU :) | 15:09 |
| freemangordon | BTW I changed part of my halogen bulbs with LED, it turned out that ~20euro philips 5W LED emits exactly the same light as halogen. for the naked eye at least | 15:11 |
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| FatPhil | DocScrutinizer05: you can guarantee that the markets here would be full of black-market Russian lightbulds as soon as they tried to impose huge taxes on legitimately sourced ones. | 15:16 |
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| FatPhil | I'm on dimmer switches in most of my flat, and there aren't any practical alternatives to incandescants anyway. | 15:17 |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 is now known as ibot | 15:18 | |
| *** ibot is now known as DocScrutinizer05 | 15:18 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: depends on dimmer and some CFL and particularly LED can get dimmed both by cut-off and classic cut-lead (terms?) dimmers | 15:21 |
| FatPhil | freemangordon: lightbulbs may be illegal, but "heat globes" aren't. | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, they are here in Germany :-( | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | idiots!! | 15:22 |
| FatPhil | DocScrutinizer05: I go by the "compatibility" icons on the pack, and everytihng I've seen (up to about 50e/bulb) has said "no dimmer" | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder if they were still illegal when painted black | 15:23 |
| FatPhil | DocScrutinizer05: It was Germans who invented "head globes"!??! | 15:23 |
| FatPhil | heat | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno who invented it, but some shop here tried to do business and iirc got closed | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | another idiocy: matte incandescent is forbidden, only clear ones allowed (when allowed at all, <60W and halogen) | 15:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WTF a rationale they gave for THIS? | 15:25 |
| freemangordon | money? | 15:27 |
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| FatPhil | I'm gonna buy mine from the little old Russian-speaking women at the market. Fuck the law! :-p | 15:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and here you are: http://www.fonefunshop.co.uk/Unlocking/servicecableuniversal1.htm | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oops ECHAN | 15:36 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, as I am here, does the N900 have an FBUS ? | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when they want to forbid they will ask for more mones (==tax, see cigarettes). when they want to earn more money, they forbid. Isn't that insane? | 15:38 |
| LinuxCode | I heard the police etc.. can read the contents out using the FBUS and do whatever they like | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LinuxCode: yes, on BB5 | 15:39 |
| LinuxCode | that sucks | 15:39 |
| LinuxCode | I thought the N900 didnt have one | 15:39 |
| LinuxCode | meh | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what you heard is nonsense though. At least massively oversimplified | 15:39 |
| LinuxCode | k | 15:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | on *normal* featurephones you can use F-bus/M-bus to read out the phonebook etc, it's a well documented feature everybody is using via so called "data cables" | 15:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't apply to N900 which doesn't have any phonebook (except on SIM) available on F-Bus | 15:41 |
| LinuxCode | so, let us assume I was dm-crypting and mounting over | 15:41 |
| LinuxCode | they could read that out ? | 15:41 |
| LinuxCode | ahhhh | 15:42 |
| LinuxCode | k | 15:42 |
| LinuxCode | good to know | 15:42 |
| LinuxCode | I just find it appalling, when they said the police would now just read out the contents of people's phones | 15:42 |
| LinuxCode | in the UK, that is | 15:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, they can do this, using same gear as your phone service point | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or yourself at home, with Nokiasuite | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | etc | 15:43 |
| FatPhil | Certainly anything on the SIM is fair game | 15:43 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, anyway one can break that ? | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | phoenix flasher software can do a tad more even, but still no magic backdoor, particularly not on N900 | 15:44 |
| oooaaaooo1 | i swear my HAM update check is event driven and not time... | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooaaaooo1: yes, it is. and it as well does an update check once a day | 15:45 |
| FatPhil | I don't see why you couldn't use an encrypted /home/user | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure you can, several users did | 15:45 |
| LinuxCode | FatPhil, well yeh, but then if you can still read out the phonebook | 15:45 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks | 15:45 | |
| FatPhil | Aaro Koskinen has a framebuffer on-screen keyboard for early password entry, for example | 15:46 |
| LinuxCode | FatPhil, got a link to that ? | 15:46 |
| FatPhil | I'll ask him again for it. There'll be some beering with him next week hopefully. | 15:46 |
| FatPhil | linuxCode, not yet released | 15:46 |
| LinuxCode | k | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LinuxCode: maemo phonebook is in ~user/.whatever | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NOT on BB5 modem that has F-Bus | 15:47 |
| LinuxCode | aha! | 15:47 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, thanks for reclarifying | 15:47 |
| * LinuxCode doesn't know much about arm based phone hardware | 15:47 | |
| LinuxCode | sadly | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway this is CSSU channel, there's #maemo for general non-cssu-related questions like that one | 15:48 |
| LinuxCode | kk | 15:49 |
| kerio | fwiw, there aren't many arm based linux phones | 15:49 |
| LinuxCode | thanks for the insights | 15:49 |
| LinuxCode | are the CSSU mirrors now more calm ? | 15:50 |
| kerio | i mean, there's the n900, there's some openmoko ones | 15:50 |
| kerio | and that's about it, i think | 15:50 |
| * LinuxCode thinks he still has another persons mirror | 15:50 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: wrong | 15:51 |
| kerio | :O | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, Industry calls android "linux" | 15:51 |
| kerio | oh | 15:51 |
| * LinuxCode will use the N900 until something comes along that could replace it | 15:51 | |
| kerio | don't be fucking ridiculous | 15:51 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 15:51 |
| LinuxCode | linux based ? | 15:51 |
| LinuxCode | ;-p | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in phone industry's internal gits you check out "linux2 branch and there it is: all android crap | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "linux" | 15:52 |
| discopig | 1lol | 15:57 |
| LinuxCode | what happened to the folks making a N900 follow on model | 15:58 |
| LinuxCode | the old Nokia folks | 15:58 |
| LinuxCode | what is it called again ? | 15:58 |
| LinuxCode | s something ? | 15:58 |
| discopig | neo900? | 15:59 |
| discopig | http://neo900.org/ | 15:59 |
| LinuxCode | Jolla folks | 16:00 |
| LinuxCode | Sawfish ?!?! | 16:00 |
| FatPhil | Sailfish? | 16:01 |
| discopig | oh | 16:01 |
| discopig | sailfish? | 16:01 |
| discopig | yeah | 16:01 |
| LinuxCode | thats it | 16:01 |
| discopig | i'm curious how that will come along | 16:01 |
| LinuxCode | discopig, thaks for that link, I bookmarked it | 16:01 |
| discopig | because salfish os/jollamobile seems like a great idea | 16:01 |
| discopig | yeah | 16:01 |
| LinuxCode | something else to keep an eye on | 16:01 |
| discopig | neo900 is going to be nice if it happens :) | 16:01 |
| discopig | i'd definitely buy one | 16:01 |
| discopig | might keep the n900 alive a few more years | 16:01 |
| oooaaaooo1 | discopig: i just bought my first smartphone and its a n900 | 16:02 |
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| * LinuxCode should stock up on N900 spares | 16:04 | |
| LinuxCode | want to use this for a good few years | 16:04 |
| LinuxCode | you cant trust other phones anymore | 16:04 |
| LinuxCode | no privacy | 16:04 |
| discopig | i've had my n900 since 2009 | 16:06 |
| discopig | and i still dont want to chagne | 16:06 |
| discopig | i have a spare one here too, just in case | 16:06 |
| LinuxCode | I just like having the keyboard | 16:11 |
| LinuxCode | in all honesty | 16:11 |
| LinuxCode | all those slate people, always cracking their screens | 16:11 |
| LinuxCode | just shows you what all the hype does | 16:11 |
| oooaaaooo1 | LinuxCode: thats exactly why i got a n900 | 16:19 |
| oooaaaooo1 | i think its psychological | 16:20 |
| oooaaaooo1 | people are like squirrels/crows... seem to have an obsession with shiniy objects | 16:21 |
| oooaaaooo1 | and so everybody gets a touchscreen device because its all glass(ie shiny) | 16:21 |
| FatPhil | some people are swipers, some are peckers. I'm definitely a pecker, so the resistive screen works for me. | 16:26 |
| FatPhil | I particularly hate miscalibrated capacitive screens which will activate even before you've touched the screen! | 16:27 |
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| FatPhil | Does any one have any experience with alleged authentic BL-5Js from the far east at a price of about 5e each? Are they legit, as that's unimaginably cheaper than what they are in the shops here? | 16:29 |
| FatPhil | with hologram, so not obvious fakes | 16:29 |
| LinuxCode | I had a few of them | 16:31 |
| LinuxCode | seemed ok.... | 16:31 |
| LinuxCode | but then I never put a stop watch next to them | 16:31 |
| LinuxCode | and compared them to the £10 phone shop one | 16:31 |
| jonwil | hmmm, which package should I work on next... | 16:41 |
| jonwil | possible candidates for attack: | 16:41 |
| jonwil | libtime | 16:41 |
| jonwil | libiphb | 16:42 |
| jonwil | liblocation | 16:42 |
| jonwil | libplayback | 16:42 |
| jonwil | libossoproductinfo | 16:42 |
| jonwil | libsysinfo0 | 16:42 |
| FatPhil | jonwil: what kind of attacks are you performing? | 16:42 |
| jonwil | Reverse engineering :) | 16:42 |
| jonwil | possibly cloning | 16:43 |
| FatPhil | I forget how much libsysinfo was removed from the running of the system, there was an attempt to get rid of it | 16:43 |
| jonwil | also possibly considering hildon-im-common-virtual-settings | 16:44 |
| jonwil | hildon-input-method-configurator | 16:44 |
| jonwil | libdevlock1 | 16:45 |
| jonwil | libdevlock-bin | 16:45 |
| jonwil | osso-applet-languageregional | 16:45 |
| jonwil | osso-applet-textinput | 16:45 |
| jonwil | statusbar-alarm | 16:45 |
| jonwil | anyone wanna suggest one of my list of targets as being worth looking at? | 16:45 |
| FatPhil | My mind is boggled. WhyTF would No-longer-kia want to close source crap like that?!?!? | 16:46 |
| jonwil | All sorts of reasons, "product differentiation", "legal risks", "3rd party IP", who knows | 16:48 |
| jonwil | A lot of it has to do with a desire to keep the UI (or most of it anyway) closed because (in Nokia's words) "UI is one of the main things that makes our phones different from others" | 16:49 |
| jonwil | considering maybe libtime or libiphb or libplayback | 16:52 |
| dos1 | what does libplayback do? | 16:53 |
| jonwil | audio related | 16:56 |
| dos1 | I'd choose liblocation | 16:59 |
| dos1 | but libiphb looks like a fun stuff | 16:59 |
| dos1 | https://gitorious.org/meego-middleware/libiphb/ ? | 17:01 |
| dos1 | and https://github.com/nemomobile/libiphb | 17:05 |
| dos1 | is that it? | 17:05 |
| jonwil | thats not the same as libiphb in maemo | 17:07 |
| dos1 | k | 17:07 |
| dos1 | dsme | 17:07 |
| dos1 | oops, wrong window | 17:08 |
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| LinuxCode | why doesnt Nokia just sign the stuff over | 17:35 |
| LinuxCode | they are finished with it anyway | 17:35 |
| LinuxCode | they could do this before MS actually buys the mobile phone arm | 17:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: (bl-5j) ghost shift products | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: liblocation! by all means | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno about libophb, not even what it does | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha, dos1 already said the same | 18:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | LinuxCode: as jonwil already said, they often don't even have the (c) of 3rd party stuff | 18:11 |
| LinuxCode | meh | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lots if all this cruft been developed by subcontractors | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I forgot the name of the most well known one | 18:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the guys who did telepathy, where lcuk worked | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess ~50% of "maemo" been actually done by those subcontractors | 18:13 |
| LinuxCode | maybe that is why Nokia did not persist then | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and while Nokia owns the rights to use the sources, they are not allowed to disclose and publish them | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or at least it would need then to assign a few dozen lawyers to evaluate and proofread all sources and contracts before they dare to disclose | 18:15 |
| LinuxCode | well, if they used FOSS code that is fair enough I guess | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/then/them/ | 18:15 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: or at least it would need them to assign a few dozen lawyers to evaluate and proofread all sources and contracts before they dare to disclose | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as I stated several times already: FOSS spirit and idea been of low priority and poorly understood at all, in pretty much all of upper Nokia management | 18:17 |
| LinuxCode | why does that not surprise me | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "exploit and monetize" it been | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are several instances where Nokia not even disclosed clearly FOSS sourcecode they exploited | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not even after community asking for disclosure according to GPL | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FSF could sue them outa their stinky chairs | 18:21 |
| jonwil | can you cite an example of where Nokia are violating the license of 3rd party code they didn't write? | 18:22 |
| oooaaaooo | internet connection failed. unable to retrieve IP addrss from server. Try again? | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HRHRHRRR http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/restricted-boots.jpg | 18:23 |
| oooaaaooo | why is it trying DHCP when i already defined a manual connection in settings? | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: ask pali et al, they did several such reviews | 18:23 |
| Pali | jonwil: If I remember correctly for example exim library | 18:24 |
| Pali | and in past problem with (harmattan) gst-dsp library | 18:25 |
| Pali | but later source code of both libraries was released (exim was same as in debian, and gst-dsp was pushed to gitorious) | 18:26 |
| Pali | and I'm not sure about vorbis, ogg, speex and jpeg license | 18:26 |
| Pali | all these libraries are closed in harmattan | 18:26 |
| Pali | and are patched by nokia | 18:26 |
| jonwil | vorbis, ogg, speex and jpeg are BSD or BSD-esque | 18:27 |
| jonwil | so those aren't an issue | 18:27 |
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| Pali | nokia jpeg code was after some time upstreamed (but they did it quitly) | 18:27 |
| jonwil | Nokjia aren't obligated to share code for vortbis, ogg or speex | 18:28 |
| Pali | jonwil: and there is maybe problem with TI DSP userspace parts... | 18:28 |
| Pali | like libomxil-ti0 | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please sign! http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement | 18:28 |
| jonwil | and they wont because doing so would mean sharing proprietary TI DSP info (used to build the DSP parts of the vorbix/ogg/speex stuff) | 18:29 |
| Pali | it is open source library, but do not know if nokia copied only it or also changed | 18:29 |
| Pali | jonwil: I mean open source libraries | 18:29 |
| Pali | and another thing which I remembered was SWI prolog interpreter | 18:30 |
| Pali | there was only binary, but after some time nokia pushed source code to r.m.o | 18:30 |
| Pali | (source code was same as upstream SWI) | 18:30 |
| jonwil | Its possible that libomxil-ti0 (as used in N900) was given to Nokia as 100% TI code (whether Nokia changed it is another matter) | 18:31 |
| Pali | another is for example ohm patches and ohm plugins | 18:31 |
| Pali | ohm is (or was?) project on freedesktop | 18:31 |
| Pali | but now you can find all source code at gitorious in big git tree | 18:32 |
| jonwil | ohm is 100% open last I checked | 18:32 |
| Pali | it is not easy, but I added all links to wiki | 18:32 |
| Pali | (all commits) | 18:32 |
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| jonwil | ok, so the REAL question is not what Nokia did in the past but if there are any packages Nokia are still in violation over | 18:33 |
| jonwil | i.e. if they are still violating GPL/LGPL/etc somewhere | 18:33 |
| jonwil | There are some packages on http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages that say "license = GPL" but I bet that Nokia (or TI or both in some cases) actually owns the copyright to that code in most cases and can therefore distribute it without needing anyone's permission | 18:34 |
| jonwil | libcityinfo-dev, nokia clearly owns that library and hence the LGPL statement means nothing | 18:35 |
| jonwil | same with hildon-desktop-applet-settings-mr0 and hildon-desktop-application-shortcuts-mr0 | 18:35 |
| jonwil | and libcodelockui1 and libcodelockui1-dev | 18:36 |
| jonwil | and maemointernal-keyring and osso-backup | 18:36 |
| jonwil | libas-storage-0 is likely Nokia copyright or possibly also Microsoft copyright (its part of ActiveSync) and so Nokia doesn't need to release code | 18:36 |
| jonwil | and libomap3cam is likely Nokia copyright, TI copyright or both and hence again license doesn't matter | 18:37 |
| Pali | jonwil: other problem is with l10n packages | 18:37 |
| jonwil | whats the issue with those? | 18:37 |
| Pali | if l10n packages are derived work of main applications, then there can be problem | 18:37 |
| Pali | some of applications are not fully copyrighted by nokia | 18:37 |
| jonwil | Someone should find a case where the contents of an l10n package is being used by code that isn't (C) Nokia (or (C) someone like TI or Microsoft who is likely to have licensed it to Nokia) and then contact the actual copyright holders to see if said copyright holders believe a violation has taken place | 18:39 |
| FatPhil | jonwil: regarding "where Nokia are violating the license of 3rd party code" - powertop | 18:41 |
| FatPhil | Which reminds me, I'm going to write a real mail on paper to them regarding that. | 18:41 |
| jonwil | what package contains powertop? | 18:43 |
| jonwil | Is that harmattan or fremantle? | 18:43 |
| jonwil | or what? | 18:43 |
| FatPhil | HArmattan. But it was exactly the same code base | 18:43 |
| jonwil | so powertop license vioilation only applies to n9/n950 and not n900? | 18:44 |
| FatPhil | Your question refers to "nokia", I answered that question. | 18:45 |
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| jonq | hi | 18:45 |
| jonwil | ok | 18:45 |
| jonq | Do it exist some log for maemo mail client ? | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please ask in #maemo | 18:46 |
| jonwil | ok, then I narrow my question and ask this: Are there any instances where we know of that Nokia are (as of right now) still violating the license of any packages used on the Nokia N900 device? | 18:46 |
| FatPhil | How did non-nokians get powertop binaries on their n900s? Did they just copy the harmattan one? | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: seems powertop meets that defintion | 18:47 |
| Pali | jonwil: powertop is also in fremantle pr1.0 n900 image | 18:47 |
| Pali | in first n900 public fiasco image | 18:48 |
| nedko | if nokia distributed something under GPL but didnt gave the source code, it still violates the license | 18:48 |
| nedko | regardless of nokia being the copyright holder | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope | 18:48 |
| jonwil | No that's not true | 18:48 |
| Pali | jonwil: and if I remember correclty, harmattan version is based on fremantle powertop | 18:49 |
| jonwil | IF you are the copyright holder you can do anything you like with the code you wrote | 18:49 |
| jonwil | including releasing it with a GPL note and no source code | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody can foce the original author to publish derived work from GPL stuff he owns the (C) | 18:49 |
| jonwil | but yes it sounds like powertop is a violation then | 18:49 |
| FatPhil | printing my mail to "Source Code Requests" as we speak... | 18:50 |
| FatPhil | I will report back in a few weeks when they reply (I've been told sometimes responses take 3 weeks or more) | 18:50 |
| Pali | source code requests email address not working anymore | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: please don't fail to offer Nokia could code-dump the whole shite to maemo community council and tell them to please sort stuff out | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's one of our reason d'etre | 18:51 |
| FatPhil | I'll address one issue at a time. And quite delicately too. | 18:51 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: In fact, I asked in #maemo first and they tell me to ask to ssu guys | 18:51 |
| Pali | you need to send written letter to nokia... | 18:52 |
| Pali | already tried this | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonq: seems i need to bash somebody over there | 18:52 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: ;) | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonq: who (nick) said that when (how long ago?)? | 18:53 |
| Pali | and they totally ignored what I wrote in letter and they send me DVD with burned one file = ISO image of r.m.o fremantle dump | 18:53 |
| Pali | they even do not know how to burn ISO image | 18:53 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: to be more precise I set up a mail server. All works fine so I set and account in my n900 but I can't connect to my mailbox I don't know why. This is why I'd like to see the logs | 18:54 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: how long ago = maybe 3/4 days and who ? I don't remember | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's all fine but not related to CSSU | 18:54 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: ok | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | i'm sorry but last 2 das we got an inflation of non-CSSU topics in here, ruining the S/N for this channel | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | days even | 18:55 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: ok | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the more non CSSU questions we answer here, the more users will come here instead of #maemo | 18:56 |
| FatPhil | DocScrutinizer05: what's the view on cleanup patches that don't affect functionality? Are they worth doing? | 18:56 |
| jonq | DocScrutinizer05: ok I understand | 18:56 |
| jonwil | Lets move the source-code/license discussion over to #maemo then | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: please elaborate | 18:57 |
| FatPhil | e.g. removing braindead logging, e.g. "libfoo: I just received teh 2 parameters!!!!" | 18:57 |
| nedko | hmm, it looks that you are right about enforcing gpl. thanks for clarification | 18:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: i'd be willing to tolerate GPL discussions as loosely related to CSSU, especially since this channel got a second topic of porting-fremantle | 18:58 |
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| jonwil | ok :) | 18:59 |
| jonwil | Going to create http://wiki.maemo.org/Porting/GPS to throw my thoughts on how to handle GPS in fremantle port project | 19:00 |
| FatPhil | I was the spam bastard - I'm hypersensitive to tasks who feel the need to tell the world about every single wipe as they wipe their arse. Unnecessary context switches into the kernel, not good for caches. | 19:00 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Seems I missed out on the lightbulb conversation. Can't be doing with CFL's or LED's, I am going to have to rethink my light fittings when I run out of 100W bulbs. | 19:03 |
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| LinuxCode | right chaps, and the odd lady in here. I am out, thanks for all the good info | 19:10 |
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| FatPhil | No doubt I'll be alive again over the weekend, as I'm sure I'll have some scratchbox questions... | 19:26 |
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| jonwil | http://wiki.maemo.org/Porting/GPS | 19:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: welcome | 20:55 |
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