IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Tuesday, 2012-09-04

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freemangordonmerlin1991: ping00:14
keriohmm, would you guys be ok with adding the extra commands in busybox-power to the cssu busybox package, if properly optified?00:23
kerioDocScrutinizer05: mostly you ;)00:23
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freemangordonkerio: read how the Friday's conversation ended00:24
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I fail to see how you'd possibly do that, unless you follow my suggestion to optify whole busybox-power and leave init busybox alone00:24
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: iirc we agree that iDont will split bb in two00:25
kerioyay00:25
DocScrutinizer05kerio: if you haven't noticed yet, you can't split busybox, it's one monolithic binary00:26
freemangordonleaving what is needed in rootfs and moving the resit in /opt00:26
kerioDocScrutinizer05: you can, however, put the symlinks somewhere else00:26
DocScrutinizer05pffff00:26
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: according to iDont it is possible00:26
freemangordon(should be)00:27
kerio/bin/busybox as close as the stock one as possible, maybe with patches and bugfixes after they are checked and tested, and with the same amount of features as the stock busybox00:27
kerioand then /opt/busybox/busybox which is basically the current busybox-power00:27
freemangordonkerio: lets not start that again, read the logs00:27
freemangordonit's been covered00:28
DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's basically what I suggested, and that's basically two unrelated shell binaries00:30
DocScrutinizer05and yes, I'm absolutely fine with that, since init and basic core system won't care about that stuff in /opt00:31
keriothe thing is, it could definetely be optional00:32
DocScrutinizer05that's the main point00:33
DocScrutinizer05another point being that even when you opt-in it won't eat space in rootfs00:33
DocScrutinizer05and it will not introduce (per se) new risks into init process done by busybox basic00:34
DocScrutinizer05and all the bb-p fans should be happy with that as well00:35
DocScrutinizer05except those that still think it MUST NOT be optional, since busybox-power is so cool we have to forcefeed it to the rest of the world00:36
DocScrutinizer05no matter what00:37
DocScrutinizer05but it seems the most offensive and vocal fan of that "save the world" approach has actually taken an off-time from IRC00:40
DocScrutinizer05I couldn't bother less to search tmo for his latest insults and lies00:41
merlin1991freemangordon: pong00:44
merlin1991My box is doing the 3rd reboot whilst installing 1 servicepack, windows sucks00:45
merlin1991But I have grub in place by now :)00:45
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DocScrutinizer05[2012-08-31 14:40:39] <merlin1991> kerio: it would use conflict: something which in ham only throws the use pc-suite to update error01:21
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: some "ideas": instead of "use PC suite mode" notification/error, we need a requester "conflicts! press yes for installing new and uninstalling the conflicting old. Press no to abort installation of new"01:23
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: another "idea": since cssu-extras is supposed to not kill old HAM, could we already get one or two optional packages (possibly void dummy test packages, or anything we wanna get anyway into extras like bb-p) and check it works like expected with 'old' HAM, I.E. doesn't show up (aiui)01:26
merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: as long as a package isn't in a user/* section *old* ham just ignores it01:33
merlin1991it's even better on harm, when you dl a deb that isn't in such a section the pkgmrg fails with a generic error :D01:34
DocScrutinizer05err01:34
DocScrutinizer05afk for late night beer01:43
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DocScrutinizer05let's call it a day05:27
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freemangordonmerlin1991: I tried to put new microb-engine in -thumb repo, no dice :)09:02
freemangordonlog says something like "new version already available"09:03
freemangordonmerlin1991: this is because i've changed version from -cssu0-thumbN to -0cssu0-thumbN :)09:05
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keriofreemangordon: so... what do you have to do now?11:14
kerioalso why -0cssu?11:14
freemangordonask merlin1991, not me, this is what he commited in master :)11:17
keriok11:18
keriomerlin1991: why -0cssu0?11:18
lufkerio: -0cssu is in naming convention for cssu (mentioned somewhere in wiki).11:18
kerioand 0 is the revision, ok11:19
lufepoch or something like that :)11:19
freemangordonyep11:19
freemangordonit is my fault I didn't follow that for microb-engine in thumb11:19
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freemangordonmerlin1991: ping11:22
lufhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Development#Version_Scheme11:22
ivgalvezhi, any ETA for World Clock Replacement on CSSU?11:22
ivgalvezAde is now distributing it via Dropbox as it has been blocked since ages and, obviously, it's not material for Extras11:23
keriowho's Ade?11:24
ivgalvezWorld Clock maintainer11:26
ivgalvezand author of many emulator UIs11:26
kerioclearly we need fceu in CSSU11:27
kerios/eu/eux/11:28
infobotkerio meant: clearly we need fceux in CSSU11:28
ivgalvezI don't want to be disrespectful, but that's a nonsense11:28
kerioo rly?11:29
kerio:P11:29
kerioi'm not sure this world clock is cssu material though11:29
kerioi mean, the current clock works fine11:30
ivgalvezanyway, the question was for real CSSU developers11:30
ivgalvezno offense11:30
kerioi'm not sure if portrait mode is enough11:30
keriohey, wtf, DocScrutinizer always comments on this kind of thing!11:30
ivgalvezmerlin1991 ping11:31
lufivgalvez: It seems to me like busybox I think there were no request from Ade.11:32
lufivgalvez: current CSSU developers work on their "projects".11:33
ivgalvezluf: Ade has followed all necessary theoretical steps to include Worldclock in CSSU11:33
ivgalvezhe has joined this channel11:33
ivgalvezhas provided support11:33
ivgalvezhe's maintainig the code in CSSU's gitorious11:33
lufivgalvez: ok I'm sorry.11:33
ivgalvezhe was requested to do that by freemangordon and merlin199111:34
ivgalvezbut the package has not even entered devel11:34
ivgalvezI wonder if all his efforts are worth11:34
ivgalvezhe's mentioned in TMO's thread for worldclock that he's beginning to think that it won't happen. I think it's unfortunate11:36
ivgalvezafter all his efforts11:36
lufIn this case it's question for merlin1991.11:37
ivgalvezI was trying that, but I received a funny answer from kerio11:37
ivgalvezmerlin1991, please could you answer about future of Worldclosck in CSSU? It's a nonsense to keep it blocked without being clear about it11:38
ivgalvezmerlin1991, if OSS replacements that provide minor bugfixing (portrait support) and improved features are not going to be accepted in CSSU, it would be better to clarify to avoid people wasting their time11:40
jon_yblocked?11:48
jon_yoops, wrong window11:49
jon_yheh, somehow on topic11:49
ivgalvezlucky you11:49
jon_ywhat's with the blocking here?11:51
ivgalvezstatus of worldclock11:51
jon_ywhy is it blocked?11:52
ivgalvezlet's ellaborate it even more, freemangordon what's the reason to rewrite hildon-imvkbrenderer?11:52
jon_yis that the virtual keyboard thing?11:52
ivgalvezwhat critical bugs are fixable thanks to that replacement11:53
ivgalvezvirtual keyboard works ok, doesn't it?11:53
ivgalvezAFAIL, the only fix that will bring hildon-imvkbrenderer is portrait support!!11:56
lufivgalvez: I think waiting for merlin1991 is needed. No one else can answer. And take a look to the history (yesterday or the previous day). Similar battle about busybox.11:56
ivgalvezs/AFAIL/AFAIK/11:56
infobotivgalvez meant: AFAIK, the only fix that will bring hildon-imvkbrenderer is portrait support!!11:56
kerio!!!!1!111:56
lufI think form my perspective that merlin1991 forgot or maybe Ade didn't remember it too often.11:57
ivgalvezAnd let's avoid the question about bb portrait support....11:57
keriohaha11:57
ivgalvezluf, I don't think so, however, I must say that I fail to see the rationale for accepting or rejecting new packages in CSSU11:58
lufivgalvez: I agree that the rules are missing and it's not transparent enough.11:59
ivgalvezfor example, we have heard about busybox-power that rootfs space occupied was a blocking issue11:59
kerioivgalvez: not really, no12:04
freemangordonivgalvez: yes, the reason to RE VKB is portrait support12:04
freemangordonkerio: yes12:04
keriothe big problem with busybox-power is that it changes builtin commands12:04
ivgalvezI haven't compared other components's size, however I haven't seen this argument applied to any other updates. And 500 Kb is easy to beat12:04
kerioiDont said that he'll split busybox in two, and the extra commands will be optified12:05
kerioand the changes to the stock ones will be checked for to make sure shit doesn't break12:05
kerios/for //12:05
infobotkerio meant: and the changes to the stock ones will be checked to make sure shit doesn't break12:05
ivgalvezkerio, let's check how other upgrades have been tested to avoid breackage12:06
kerioinb4 cbsms12:06
ivgalvezfor example Qt 4.7.412:06
keriooh12:06
keriohm, what did it break?12:06
ivgalvezonce it was rolled, a few applications stopped working12:06
kerioneat12:06
keriowhich ones?12:06
ivgalvezbecause of some nasty hacks in QML for 4.7.012:07
keriobtw, lack of rigor in one place doesn't justify lack of rigor anywhere else12:07
freemangordonkerio: please, don;t ask such a stupid questions, the fact you were not here means nothing in that context12:07
ivgalvezI don't remember all right now, most of them were fixed quite fast12:07
ivgalvezbut for example, LinkedUp never worked again12:07
freemangordonivgalvez: what? is that reported somewhere? sorry if I missed it12:08
kerioivgalvez: btw, is this change in cssu-stable?12:08
freemangordonkerio: you can check it yourself aiui12:08
ivgalvezI have complaned about it several times, the problem is not in CSSU but in LinkedUp12:08
ivgalvezthe use of focus scope in QML12:09
freemangordonivgalvez: aah, ok, i understood it is Qt that breaks it12:09
ivgalvezwas badly broken in 4.7.012:09
freemangordoni see12:09
ivgalvezthe fix for Qt broke hacks for make it working in 4.7.012:09
freemangordonok, got it12:09
ivgalvezso applications mantained were fixed12:09
ivgalvezbut not LinkedUp12:09
ivgalvezit's just an example for how any change introduced in CSSU can always break something12:10
ivgalvezhowever, the alternative is not to provide any updates12:10
kerio*not to not provide any updates12:11
ivgalvezyep, sorry, which would be a nonsense12:11
freemangordonivgalvez: i see your point, but indeed, lets wait for merlin199112:11
ivgalvezanyway, something will be broken, with any change we introduce. But we have a devel-testing-stable cycle to try to fix those problems12:12
ivgalvezif nobody cares, i.e. LinkedUp, the issue will remain, but that's not reason to stop any progress12:13
freemangordonivgalvez: there is noone online who will argue on that ;)12:13
ivgalvezyes, I see12:13
lufI think DocS disagree ;)12:13
freemangordonluf: so?12:14
freemangordonor just saying :P12:14
luffreemangordon: you're right "there is noone online who will argue on that"12:15
ivgalvezthe real question is: what is the real goal of CSSU? because we haven't applied the same rules to all the components12:15
ivgalvezI mean, I can disagree with Doc, but he has a point12:15
freemangordonivgalvez: you may want to read the log from bb discussion12:16
ivgalvezif CSSU is only about freaking stable patches with code coverage only for bugfixing12:16
ivgalvezyes, I read them12:16
lufivgalvez: I see this as the main problem. But it's not so easy :)12:16
ivgalvezwell if CSSU is only bugfixing, half the components shouldn't be there12:16
freemangordonivgalvez: it does not make sense to argue with me then :P12:16
ivgalvezhehe12:17
freemangordonor with luf in that regard12:17
freemangordon:D12:17
lufivgalvez: main problem is lack of some rules.12:17
lufivgalvez: it does not make sense to argue with me ;)12:18
freemangordonhehe12:18
ivgalvezthe situation is even more strange since latest meeting organised by freemangordon about community kernel and glibc12:18
kerioivgalvez: in theory, the improvements (camera-ui2, operator-name-cbs-widget, busybox-power) will be made optional in some way12:18
ivgalvezthere were some decisions there12:18
freemangordonivgalvez: well, have in mind it was summer time, lots of holidays etc12:18
freemangordonmerlin1991 was on holyday for about a month or so12:19
* freemangordon is anvy12:19
ivgalvezthat were retired the day after12:19
freemangordoni know12:19
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ivgalvezkerio, busybox-power cannot be considerd as camera-ui2 or operator-name-cbs-widget12:23
ivgalvezthose are OSS replacement12:23
ivgalvezbb-p is upstream version12:23
ivgalvezthe same than Qt 4.7.4 is upstream with new features and bugfixes12:24
lufthe same as curl is upstream12:24
ivgalvezyou can argue that bbp has more risks than Qt 4.7.412:24
ivgalvezbut the fact is that bbp has near 30K downloads and not known regressions12:25
ivgalvezwith a big bunch of testers and power users participating in its TMO thread12:26
ivgalvezwhile Qt 4.7.4 still breaks (at least) one application existing in Extras12:26
ivgalvezbb-p has probably more users than CSSU, as it's in Extras since ages (before even CSSU exists) while you need to go to TMO and read tons of information to know about CSSU12:28
ivgalvezso I definitively do not understand it12:29
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DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: world clock isn't "blocked" for all I recall.12:38
DocScrutinizer05please check chanlogs12:38
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: well, someone would argue that "lack of development" actually means blocked12:39
freemangordonand the lack on development is on CSSU side, not on ade's12:40
freemangordonas there was some kind of "promise" adeclock will go in cssu-extras-to-be12:40
freemangordoncssu-extras-to-be is still missing and noone knows when and if it will be ready12:41
DocScrutinizer05that's life12:42
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lufDocS: it leads to lose of developers ...12:43
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991 said he'll implement the missing bits into HAM12:43
DocScrutinizer05if somebody feels that's too slowly happening, you're free to help12:44
DocScrutinizer05until then, as mentioned here like 12h ago, you could bring optional packages to cssu-extras and install them via apt-get12:46
kerioyay apt12:47
DocScrutinizer05I don't see anything blocking that12:48
keriolack of support?12:48
DocScrutinizer05meh, kerio. Your comments are neither helpful nor to the point12:48
keriothe problem with replacing system packages is always the same12:49
keriolack of support in the metapackage unless you do weird shit, lack of consistency when you do upgrades12:49
DocScrutinizer05yes, we discussed it with busybox like yesterday12:49
DocScrutinizer05that's what we designed the cssu-extras scheme fore12:51
DocScrutinizer05please read about it in merlin1991's mail12:51
DocScrutinizer05as well as in chanlogs12:51
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: saying that you don;t give a shit when there are only a few developers contibuting to CSSU makes me wonder what is your motivation.12:51
kerioi meant about doing that unofficially12:51
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: I'm saying what?12:52
freemangordon12:41 <DocScrutinizer05> that's life12:52
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djszapiivgalvez: hi12:52
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: ^^^12:53
djszapido you know anything about the meeting friday afternoon with x-fade?12:53
djszapiI have just heard of that. It would take place at 3 am?12:53
chem|stdjszapi: ask proper questions... ask what you want to know not general foo...12:53
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I don't have time now to argue with you (again :) ), will do it next time12:54
chem|stivgalvez: when does the meeting with x-fade take place?12:54
djszapichem|st: I have asked general foo12:54
djszapisince I do not know anything12:54
ivgalvezdjszapi it will be 15:00 UTC this Friday at #maemo-meeting12:54
djszapiany url, news page, etc would help a lot to understand more about the purpose, etc12:54
ivgalvezsee Maemo News12:55
ivgalvezhttp://maemo.org/community/council/community_council_meeting_with_nemein-august_31st-2012/12:55
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: I've not even any mood to argue about diffetrence between "that's life" and "you don;t give a shit when there are only a few developers contibuting to CSSU"12:55
djszapiwe have had some issues with the c-obs recently, so I would also like to join, if it is inside the scope of the meeting, and I am invited.12:55
DocScrutinizer05since that's nonsensical12:55
ivgalvezdjszapi, of course12:55
RST38hEHLO Doc12:56
DocScrutinizer05djszapi: you're aware you are kinda OT in this chan?12:56
DocScrutinizer05hi RST38h12:56
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, please be generous I'm only connected to this channel ;)12:57
RST38hIs he planning to add Aegis to Maemo5 CSSU? Is he? IS HE REALLY?12:57
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: ok12:57
RST38hI mean, wouldn't Aegis be a killer feature?12:57
ivgalvezRST38h what did you smoke?12:58
keriosure, it would kill off maemo5 for good12:58
kerioi don't think that's the definition of "killer feature" tho12:58
djszapiivgalvez: thank you.12:58
RST38hivgalvez: I do not smoke, I produce this stuff in the course of natural metabolism12:58
ivgalvezRST38h: I was kidding12:59
djszapiivgalvez: if I somehow get distracted on Friday afternoon, feel free to ping me in private before the meeting as a reminder.13:00
djszapiif it is not a problem for you. :)13:00
ivgalvezof course, don't worry. It would be useful if you send us an email detailing the problems in c-obs to council@maemo.org13:01
djszapiok, I can group some of my bugreports.13:02
djszapilet us discuss this on Friday.13:02
djszapithank you, again.13:03
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DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: I'm not able to keep track with every single package that somehow belongs to or relates to or should go to cssu. That's why I ask what's current status of world clock. Usually devels get their stuff into cssu git, and on next cssu-t release merlin will include them if they are ready for inclusion. There's nothing "blocking" world clock as you assumed13:10
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: World Clock is present in CSSU's git since long time ago but it hasn't been included yet in any CSSU-T release13:11
ivgalvezit hasn't been even packaged for Devel13:11
ivgalvezthat's why I asked merlin1991 about it13:11
DocScrutinizer05I have no idea about devel13:11
DocScrutinizer05I'd think devel is where every devel may do whatever they want13:12
ivgalvezI'm not pointing to you13:12
ivgalvezI'm simply asking because I don't really understand what's the rationale13:12
DocScrutinizer05there's not really any devel release13:12
ivgalvezyes but then, how a new package enters devel?13:13
ivgalvezuntil now, to test the worldclock you needed to copy the binary manually13:14
DocScrutinizer05as already stated, NFC about devel, really. I think it's mainly freemangordon to ask13:14
freemangordonivgalvez: well, merlin1991 should give the developer access to the repo13:14
freemangordonbut I don't think ade has requested such13:14
freemangordon(access)13:14
ivgalvezand now Ade seems bored and is distributing the package via Dropbox13:14
DocScrutinizer05:nod:13:14
ivgalvezmaybe he didn't know13:14
freemangordoncould be13:15
DocScrutinizer05unfortunate13:15
DocScrutinizer05I see a ceratin need for a "CSSU - how to contribute"13:15
ivgalvezas all the discussion around if it should or shouldn't enter in CSSU was hiding the fact that it could go to devel for the time bieng13:15
freemangordonbut a simple question "how the fuck am I supposed to upload the stuff in -devel repo" should give him the missing knowledge13:15
ivgalvezI wouldn't like to lose developers just because of that13:16
DocScrutinizer05after all we hadn't much need so far for such a howto, but if we want to welcome new contributors we should publish such stuff13:17
freemangordonivgalvez: yes, but CSSU developer should somehow pro-active ;)13:17
freemangordonafter all cssu-devel is not a secret13:17
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: indeed13:17
ivgalvezwell I've seen ade here so many times, but all the discussion was around if it could or not go into CSSU13:18
freemangordonivgalvez: see how busybox-thumb has entered cssu-thumb repo13:18
ivgalvezI read all the logs and didn't know how to upload to devel13:18
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: how about you writing a nice howto, you are "from outside" and thus might have a untainted view on what's needed in such a howto13:19
DocScrutinizer05of course we're happy to help13:19
ivgalvezfremangordon, don't try to cheat me, you know that thumb repo is far more relaxed that CSSU13:19
ivgalvezyou are the maintainer ;)13:19
freemangordoncssu-devel is as relaxed as -thumb is13:20
freemangordonwell, it is even more relaxed13:20
ivgalvezwell, nobody had said that, yet13:20
DocScrutinizer05that's probably because we only "recently" invented cssu-devel13:21
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 I'd like I could, but I'm not sure if I will have time for that :( my TODO is huge13:21
ivgalvezreally huge13:21
ivgalvezIt's not strange people don't want to be part of Council13:22
DocScrutinizer05I'll see if I can cludge something together13:22
ivgalvezI wonder if we will have enough candidates for next election13:22
ivgalvezanyway, I'll push ade a bit more13:22
keriowell, one point is actually clear though13:23
keriocssu won't include packages without the permission of the authors13:23
DocScrutinizer05please tell him nobody is blocking worldclock, it's just not moving fast and he should contribute and take care13:23
freemangordon:nod:13:23
kerioand considering the lack of personnel, most likely packages won't be included if the author doesn't actively come forward and help13:24
DocScrutinizer05yep, that's why it is meaningless to argue "but XY made it to CSSU and it also only has portrait support"13:25
ivgalvezdone13:25
keriowhere did you tell him?13:26
kerioemail? tmo? or a more "live" way?13:26
ivgalvezworld clock TMO thread13:26
DocScrutinizer05afaik we scheduled a new T release for this week13:27
kerioDocScrutinizer05: hm, will something apart from the metapackage actually upgrade for me?13:28
kerioi'm on -testing+thumb+devel13:28
DocScrutinizer05it usually helps when devels hang out here taking care about their package not falling off end of the table when we discuss what to include13:28
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991 has a list of candidates afaik13:29
kerioDocScrutinizer05: no, i mean13:29
kerioi don't actually know how the "promoting" is supposed to work13:30
keriois the package in -devel just copied to -testing?13:30
kerioor is there new stuff too?13:30
DocScrutinizer05no, I think we're discussing it here for each packet suggested, and then merlin1991 and/or mohammad prepare packages for T13:30
kerioyeah but are they packages that have been in -devel already?13:31
DocScrutinizer05and -devel is no prerequisite at all13:31
kerioi see13:31
kerioi was wondering about that, yeah :)13:31
DocScrutinizer05actually until invention of -devel devls were supposed to develop and test locally on their home environment whatever that is13:33
DocScrutinizer05then distrubute by whatever means (tmo?) to maybe a dozen of betatesters, and based on their results we decide whether pkg gets included to T or needs further work before that13:34
DocScrutinizer05now devels may deliver to betatesters via -devel aiui13:35
DocScrutinizer05but it's not any prerequisite13:35
kerioi see13:35
DocScrutinizer05prerequisite however are the betatesters testing actual cssu pkg, not anything built a year ago for maemo stock and shipped via dropbox or mameo-extras13:37
keriooh you!13:38
kerioc:13:38
DocScrutinizer05well, never mind that last statement, it's not completely to the point. Actually packages may go straight from $arbitrary-state to cssu-t, depending on anticipated impact and risk and amount of "testing" they've seen regarding this risk13:48
DocScrutinizer05I think it's decided in discussion in here, on a per-package basis13:49
DocScrutinizer05optional packages of course have way lower watermark to skip for inclusion since they won't usually render user's system inoperable when any bug slips in with them. User simply opts out and problem solved as far as user's concern13:51
ivgalvezAs I supposed14:10
ivgalvezit was unclear how to proceed with wrold clock14:11
ivgalvezcheck: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1260833&postcount=28414:11
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: that's all fine :-)14:13
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merlin1991okay I'm here now14:54
keriomerlin1991: replacement for clock - assuming the developer helps, yay or nay?14:57
kerioopensource replacement, with working portrait mode14:58
merlin1991kerio: yay in the modified ham scheme14:58
merlin1991luf:  ping14:59
lufmerlin1991: pong14:59
keriohm14:59
merlin1991did you see the rtcom logger repo?14:59
lufI didn't have time yesterday.14:59
lufI see.15:00
lufI'll upload (I hope) today.15:00
merlin1991freemangordon: ping15:04
merlin1991luf: I didn't try to build it yet, but it would be perfect if you could upload the sources soon, so in case there are some debhelper changes needed again or a missing builddependency I could quickly fix that15:11
lufmerlin1991: ok15:12
merlin1991freemangordon: microb-engine still failed15:17
merlin1991with the same error15:18
merlin1991ah yeah because the issue of "not even packed for devel" came up, devel is done by the developers themselves, if they want access they need to ask me, and then they can push their packages15:26
merlin1991luf: ping me when you've pushed to gitorious15:26
DocScrutinizer05kerio: please check chanlog, we discussed world clock and decided on it already15:29
DocScrutinizer05kerio: no need to go thru all that again15:29
DocScrutinizer05hi merlin199115:30
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: could we "include" cssu-extras optional and/or alternative packages to T even without HAM augments implemented yet?15:32
merlin1991well ham would choke, but apt should be fine15:32
DocScrutinizer05or would that introduce useless complications?15:32
kerioDocScrutinizer05: add them as optional, or add them as required?15:33
DocScrutinizer05kerio: see my last line posted, I asked for optional and/or alternative packages15:33
chem|stmerlin1991: o/15:34
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: o/15:34
kerioDocScrutinizer05: the only "problem" is that HAM will never install them15:35
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: (ham would choke) aiui ham shouldn't even display them?15:35
chem|stmerlin1991: I made up my mind what will become next in stable but one... so if you have time we could roll15:36
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it depends on which category they're in15:36
DocScrutinizer05kerio: yes, thanks cpt obvious15:36
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keriowell, busybox-power from extras is in user/system iirc15:36
keriocan we make up our own category?15:36
DocScrutinizer05we already did, please read merlin1991's mail and chanlogs about cssu-extras15:37
keriothen yay15:37
DocScrutinizer05cssu-extras is NOT a new repo but a category in cssu-[st]15:38
DocScrutinizer05iirc15:38
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DocScrutinizer05chem|st: could you post/paste the list of pkgs to update in S somewhere?15:42
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chem|stall but the extras (cbs camera tv)15:45
DocScrutinizer05so nothing "new"15:46
DocScrutinizer05?15:46
DocScrutinizer05IOW only updates of existing packages, no new packages introduced?15:47
keriotv?15:47
freemangordonmerlin1991: then something is broken on you side, microb-engine builds with no problems here, FREMANTLE_ARMEL target, gcc 4.2.115:48
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: there is only dosfstools new15:48
DocScrutinizer05aaah ok15:48
freemangordonmerlin1991: could you help me to solve -thumb repo issue with microb-engime?15:49
DocScrutinizer05no concerns regarding dosfstools15:49
DocScrutinizer05:-)15:49
freemangordonhmm, wait15:49
chem|stah no tv-out-control and dosfstools15:49
freemangordonit is needed by new ke-recv, is it going in stable?15:49
DocScrutinizer05wtf is tv-out-control?15:50
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: FOSS replacement of tv settings applet15:50
chem|st+115:50
DocScrutinizer05hmm, what's the benefit?15:50
chem|stfreemangordon: any concerns putting ke-recv in stable?15:51
freemangordonit is FOSS and it has some extended functionality15:51
freemangordonchem|st: the version in -testing? not at all15:51
DocScrutinizer05dang, I completely missed to give it some tests15:51
chem|stafaics everything is fine but camUI and cbs15:51
freemangordonchem|st: just beware there were commits recently on gitorious, make sure you use the correct source to build it15:51
keriofreemangordon: well, the one in -testing is the one that tries desperately to mount everything, right?15:51
freemangordonkerio:  desperately?15:52
DocScrutinizer05oooh, aspect & scale15:52
chem|stI'd love to just include camui but "freedom of choice" crossed my mind15:55
DocScrutinizer05dnag, it showed "[ ] enable" (unticked) yet worked. I set it to "[x] enable" and of course nothing changed. Then I reverted to unticked and TV-out stopped providing signal to TVset15:55
DocScrutinizer05something fishy in it15:56
merlin1991freemangordon: i'll go for lunch now, got time in about 30 mins?15:56
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: provide a dirt simple camui-picker 'app' and freedom of choice secured15:57
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: could depend on it, it is in extras-stable?!15:57
DocScrutinizer05though, where lives camui.launch?15:57
DocScrutinizer05is it optified?15:57
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: you're asking about "dirt simple camui-picker"? It's not existing yet15:58
kerioDocScrutinizer05: does camera-ui2 replace camui?15:59
DocScrutinizer05yes16:00
DocScrutinizer05for now it does, which is a problem16:00
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: there is a picker isn't it?16:00
keriodoes it have to? i mean, is it called from other programs that require "a photo"?16:00
DocScrutinizer05haven't seen any yet16:00
DocScrutinizer05kerio: nope, that's why it should become optional16:00
keriowhere does the standard camera live?16:01
chem|sthttp://maemo.org/packages/view/cl-launcher/16:01
keriooptfs?16:01
DocScrutinizer05and with a picker to choose which camui will come up when lens cover opened16:01
kerioDocScrutinizer05: well, camera-ui2 has a way to choose that16:01
kerioin its settings16:01
DocScrutinizer05oooh16:01
DocScrutinizer05neat16:01
kerioi mean, it has a way to choose whether to launch it or not when the lens cover is opened16:01
kerionot sure about anything else16:02
DocScrutinizer05meh, that's not exactly what we want16:02
keriowhat's launched when the lens cover is opened?16:02
DocScrutinizer05there's a symlink that needs to be changed depending on what user picks as the standard/default camui16:03
keriowhere does the symlink live?16:03
chem|st.desktop file16:03
kerioi think it's just a check for "were we launched from the camera lens cover? if so, close everything"16:04
chem|stit prevents starting from dbus me thinks16:04
chem|stas buggy as it is the other way it would start sometimes anyway and then close and freeze the system noticable sometimes16:05
kerioi see16:06
keriocouldn't it just change the .desktop to point to /bin/true?16:06
DocScrutinizer05I can't find the symlink anymore16:07
DocScrutinizer05:-S16:07
DocScrutinizer05MEH!16:08
DocScrutinizer05original (stock):16:08
DocScrutinizer05t900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/camera-ui16:08
DocScrutinizer05lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           22 Dec 12  2010 /usr/bin/camera-ui -> /usr/bin/maemo-invoker16:08
DocScrutinizer05cssu:16:08
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/camera-ui16:08
DocScrutinizer05-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 168532 2012-05-20 22:10 /usr/bin/camera-ui16:08
DocScrutinizer05that's pretty bad in a number of ways16:08
keriowhat's maemo-invoker?16:09
kerioDocScrutinizer05: btw, dpkg -S /usr/bin/camera-ui on both plskthx16:09
DocScrutinizer05the maemo turboloader for all proper maemo apps16:09
kerioturboloader? wat16:10
DocScrutinizer05it preloads libs and stuff, so apps start up faster and with smaller memory footprint16:10
keriocan't it be done for everything?16:11
DocScrutinizer05you need a special "interface" for camera-ui.launch16:12
DocScrutinizer05afaik16:12
keriooh, the program has to be compiled in a certain way16:13
DocScrutinizer05(camera-ui.launch is the real binary that gets loaded by mameo-invoker when that mameo-invoker gets started wiith $0 == camera-ui16:13
kerioyeah, yeah, i figured16:13
DocScrutinizer05)16:13
DocScrutinizer05damn, maemo maemo maemo maemo16:13
DocScrutinizer05not mameo16:13
keriowhy don't other linux distros do this?16:13
DocScrutinizer05KDE does16:14
keriofukken KDE :c16:14
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: we'd need a camui-picker that tweaks that symlink to point to either /usr/bin/maemo-invoker or nicocam binary16:15
kerioDocScrutinizer05: is camera-ui.launch still there, on iron900?16:16
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: where do you get your info what maemo.launcher does?16:16
freemangordonmaemo-invoker, sorry16:17
DocScrutinizer05kerio: nope16:17
kerioi see, so it's just a replacement of the package with the same name16:17
keriohmm, why is this a big deal if camera-ui2 is optional?16:18
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: err, no particular source. storries on IRC, maybe wiki, dunno16:18
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: are you sure this .launch is not some legacy from diablo?16:18
kerioi mean, it's intended to be a camera-ui replacement, not a separate camera app16:18
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: obviously we got XY.launch binaries on fremantle16:19
DocScrutinizer05quite a number of them16:19
merlin1991freemangordon: about microb-engine, could you try with a new clone, just to be sure?16:19
freemangordonmerlin1991: i did, it compiles ok16:20
merlin1991hm I'd like to know why it fails for me16:20
freemangordonmerlin1991: did you oull the latest source?16:20
merlin1991yes16:20
freemangordon*pull16:20
merlin19915 commits16:20
DocScrutinizer05I'm not completely sure it needs a special interface though16:20
merlin1991freemangordon: could you upload the complete set (debs, tar.gz, dsc and changes) to the server for me then?16:21
DocScrutinizer05t900:~# /usr/bin/camera-ui.launch16:21
DocScrutinizer05Segmentation fault16:21
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I will appreciate if you find some info re .launch thingie, I was always wondering why exactly it is needed16:21
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yeah, you cannot run it16:21
DocScrutinizer05:-P it seems it actually has some special interface16:21
freemangordonand it takes some special flags during compile-time, see hildon-desktop for reference16:22
freemangordonmerlin1991: ok, will do16:22
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: it's about *.so preloaded by maemo-invoker afaik16:22
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keriosome page on a garage explains how it works16:22
keriohttp://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs/tutorial/html/ch07.html16:22
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: but why that should be faster than ld.so?16:22
DocScrutinizer05so maemo-invoker inherits all those libs.so to all the child processes it spawns16:23
kerioyou need -shared in CFLAGS and -shared -rdynamic in LDFLAGS16:23
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: maemo-invoker is a "stay-resident" process16:23
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DocScrutinizer05you invoking it as binary simply does some IPC to the already running instance16:24
merlin1991freemangordon: regarding version in -thumb you have 3 options16:24
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: so? it locks the libs in RAM?16:24
DocScrutinizer05that already running instance then launches the camui/whaever16:24
merlin1991#1 keep your old scheme for -thumb, #2 use an epoch, #3 use +xcssux instead of -xcssux16:25
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: yes, basically that's what it does16:25
freemangordonmerlin1991: there is a parameter I was not able to tweak, to allow older package version16:25
freemangordonmerlin1991: see inotcoming.log, it is mentioned there16:25
DocScrutinizer05since maemo-invoker never terminates and has the libs dlopened16:25
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I still fail to see the benefit for the wide-used libs (glibc, gtk, etc)16:26
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: all that with big disclaimer "AFAIK"16:26
merlin1991freemangordon: if it's just about -thumb I can simply remove the old package16:27
keriomerlin1991: -cssu0 is a higher version than -0cssu0 i think16:27
freemangordonmerlin1991: yes, for -thumb only. I followed your versioning scheme, that is why I have that problem16:27
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: the first (maybe only) benefit is ld doesn't need to link symbols again16:27
merlin1991well some users might need to use apt-get if you had microb-engine already in the mp16:27
DocScrutinizer05aiui16:28
freemangordonmerlin1991: don;t worry, i have (=...) dependency16:28
merlin1991:)16:28
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I for sure don;t want libs to stay resident when noone needs them16:29
freemangordonwhatever "resident" means16:29
keriofreemangordon: it's just gtk16:29
keriosomeone's gotta be using it16:29
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: also iirc camera-ui runs all the time16:29
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: making camera-ui(2) pickable introduces 168532 bytes new space consumtion to rootfs16:29
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: too much :P16:30
kerioDocScrutinizer05: no it doesn't?16:30
keriowhat do you mean by pickable?16:30
DocScrutinizer05since aiui we can't optify16:30
keriowhy not? :o16:30
keriooh, what do you know, camera-ui *does* run all the time16:31
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: I mean a GUI with two buttons: "lens cover starts stock camera"  and "lens cover starts new nicocam"16:31
kerioDocScrutinizer05: also stuff like hildon's launchers for camera-ui, right?16:32
keriowhy can't it be optified?16:32
keriois it required during boot time?16:32
DocScrutinizer05obviously will need a reboot to take effect, but that's not a big obstacle in my book16:32
kerioi mean, we're even lucky because the stock camera-ui is a symlink already16:32
keriohuh, why is that?16:32
kerioall it needs is a killall camera-ui16:32
DocScrutinizer05rrrright :-)16:33
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DocScrutinizer05so we just should check if we actually can't optify that crap16:33
kerioso the new CSSU camera-ui package should be the stock one, but optified16:34
* freemangordon still fails to see the rationale behind that16:34
DocScrutinizer05I can't see why it would be needed to start in *early* boot16:34
merlin1991freemangordon: I removed microb-engine from the repo16:34
kerioand without the symlink in the package, because you don't change dpkg files16:34
freemangordonnicocam is better than stock, FOSS, and has no known bugs. Why the hell we want all that mess?16:35
freemangordonmerlin1991: thanks16:35
DocScrutinizer05it has known bugs, it introduces instability at least for me16:35
kerioDocScrutinizer05: do we really need a picker?16:35
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: ?16:35
keriocan't it be just a package in cssu-extras?16:36
keriowith the usual provide+conflict16:36
DocScrutinizer05kerio: could, but that would make it mutually exclusive16:36
DocScrutinizer05of course that's the normal way to implement it16:37
kerioi don't want 8 billion camera apps on my n90016:37
kerio:c16:37
DocScrutinizer05but if we can give user more freedom of choice (I.E. choose at runtime), why shouldn't we at least consider that?16:38
freemangordonno, you want, otherwise you won't have THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE16:38
freemangordonmeh16:38
keriowhy can't i have freedom of choice for modified-hildon-desktop?16:38
freemangordonkerio, DocScrutinizer05: you have the freedom of choice to not use CSSU, agree?16:39
DocScrutinizer05optional alternative cssu pkg:: freedom to decide between either one of both cameras, but not allowing concurrent install of both16:39
kerioinb4 DocScrutinizer05 tells us to stop trolling16:40
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: nope, we already decided on that. That's the only freedom CSSU won't give to devels, force user to do a all or nothing decision16:41
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i suppose it could be a neat thing but then you'd have people who want to uninstall the stock camera-ui16:41
DocScrutinizer05yes16:41
DocScrutinizer05those should be able to do that16:42
kerioit becomes a HUGE mess16:42
DocScrutinizer05the picker app needs to check if there's actually an alternative16:42
kerioi suppose you make them all provide camera-ui16:42
keriobut they won't conflict16:42
DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's what _you_ say now16:42
DocScrutinizer05there might be even further options in that picker thingie: "on lens cover open start fcam"; "on lens cover open start blessn900";16:44
DocScrutinizer05who knows16:44
keriowould that even *work*?16:44
kerioalso, we'd need to change the .desktop at that point16:44
keriothe one that's actually referred to when the lens cover is opened16:45
DocScrutinizer05I don't think so, the way blessn900 and fcam work right now16:45
keriomeh, it's probably just a launcher anyway16:45
DocScrutinizer05why do we need to change .desktop?16:45
keriobecause if you change /usr/bin/camera-ui then you tap on "Camera" and FCam opens16:46
DocScrutinizer05there shuld be a .desktop "default cam" and one for each particular cam like fcam, nicocam, blessn900 ...16:46
DocScrutinizer05I don't see much problems in that16:47
DocScrutinizer05s/much/many7.16:47
DocScrutinizer05and yes, that's exactly what's expected to happen: clicking "default cam" .desktop icon starts default cam whatever that is16:48
DocScrutinizer05no need for .desktop change due to that16:49
kerioshould it be called "Camera", maybe? :D16:49
DocScrutinizer05like it's now? yeah, probably16:49
DocScrutinizer05but we probably want a new icon&.desktop "Nokia camera"16:50
kerioyeah, yeah16:50
keriowell no, the icon is the same16:50
DocScrutinizer05:nod:16:50
DocScrutinizer05kerio: are you feeling the mess becoming less HUGE? ;-D16:51
kerioor maybe the back of a digital camera, with elop's face in the monitor16:51
kerioDocScrutinizer05: yeah, yeah16:52
DocScrutinizer05first of all somebody needs to check if that shit may get optified. We'd *love* to do that if possible16:52
DocScrutinizer05since despite rants we care about freeing up space in rootfs16:52
jon_yoptify elop's face?16:52
jon_ywallpaper from cssu :)16:52
kerioCSSU should ship a wallpaper with Elop in it16:53
DocScrutinizer05damn, I missed a highlight somewhere16:53
DocScrutinizer05o.O16:54
DocScrutinizer05or I got delusions16:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: There is only one thing I am missing - who will implement that?16:55
DocScrutinizer05if we can't optify, we might need to copy default camera-ui from /opt to /, same time we change the symlink16:56
keriojust repackage camera-ui16:56
DocScrutinizer05that shitty picker? I'll do16:56
DocScrutinizer05looks like a 30liner shellscript16:56
keriowell, repackage both16:56
kerioDocScrutinizer05: no, it should be a panel in Settings16:57
freemangordon:nod:16:57
DocScrutinizer05yeah, it *should*, just maybe16:57
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: you want your -stable users to switch between camera-ui flavours by using a shell script?16:57
DocScrutinizer05I think I might be able to pick an arbitrary setting plugin and tweak it to picker's needs16:58
keriorepackage camera-ui so it has nokia-camera.desktop instead of camera-ui.desktop16:58
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: I thought of using zenity ;-P16:58
kerioand it has no /usr/bin/camera-ui symlink16:58
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kerioand add a camera-ui-picker with camera-ui.desktop and the settings panel16:59
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: in that regard - isn't that plugin a "CSSU settings" applet we are talking about?16:59
kerioand in postinst, make a default symlink to /usr/bin/maemo-launcher16:59
keriofreemangordon: no, it's just for the purpose of picking the camera16:59
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: arguable16:59
kerio"CSSU settings" makes no sense16:59
keriousers would go "wtf is a cssu?"16:59
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: frankly, it belongs to there16:59
freemangordona centralized place to control all of the goodies CSSU brings17:00
DocScrutinizer05I'm undecided between your and kerio's point17:00
keriothe centralized place should be Settings17:00
DocScrutinizer05yes17:00
DocScrutinizer05no doubt17:00
freemangordonkerio: and applet in settings17:00
freemangordons/and/a/17:00
infobotfreemangordon meant: kerio: a applet in settings17:00
kerioPersonalization->Camera app.17:01
kerioas opposed to Extras->CSSU settings->Camera app.17:01
freemangordondoes not matter how you will call it17:01
kerioit does17:01
keriothey should be a bunch of separate settings applets17:01
freemangordonno, it will become useless17:01
keriothere's no "Nokia" settings applet17:01
DocScrutinizer05good point17:01
freemangordonthe setting will become so overcrowded if we write an applect for every feature CSSU brings, that it will become a nightmare to use17:02
kerioas opposed to overcrowding the cssu applet?17:02
freemangordonyes, because you know in which group all of the features in there belong17:03
DocScrutinizer05there are already some "crappy" random conglomerations of setting options in settings: tweakr, cssu-settings17:03
keriofreemangordon: users won't know that17:03
keriousers will go "wtf is a cssu, and why should i change its settings?"17:03
DocScrutinizer05indeed17:04
freemangordonkerio: in order to have such CSSU applet, you have to install CSSU, it won't appear out of the blue17:04
DocScrutinizer05it's a botch, when no better concept is feasible17:04
freemangordonspreadin configuration amongs tenths of places is not a good concept from the UI POV17:05
DocScrutinizer05why isn't the new TV setting under CSSU?17:05
keriofreemangordon: the only reason cell broadcast settings is in a separate applet and not in Phone is because Phone is closed-source17:05
kerioand it *is* a single place17:05
kerioit's called Settings17:05
kerioand it's divided in categories already17:05
freemangordonkerio: agree, but it is a replacement, not a new feature. The same for tv-out applet - it is a replacement17:05
DocScrutinizer05CSSU tells nothing about the purpose of the settings it contains. It's a rather meaningless historical reference17:06
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i was looking for a way to say that17:06
kerioyes17:06
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: forget about the name, i used "CSSU settings" just as an example17:06
keriofreemangordon: we could call it Settings17:06
freemangordonthe point is that we should group the additional features that CSSU brings in one place17:07
kerioWHY?17:07
freemangordonbecause it is easier to be used17:07
keriothat's historical data17:07
freemangordonwhat is historical data, elaborate please?17:07
keriohow will a user know if a feature was added in CSSU or was added in PR1.2?17:07
freemangordonwhy he/she should care?17:08
DocScrutinizer05exactly17:08
freemangordonthe logical place after installing a new piece of SW on your device/PC/whatever is its own "settings"17:08
* DocScrutinizer05 suggests to get a settings applet for each developer, named "FMG", "Doc", "Kerio" errr17:09
freemangordondisagree, only one, called "Kerio" :P17:09
freemangordonwith sub-menus FMG nad doc17:09
DocScrutinizer05makes as much sense as collecting all new settings under settings-menu "CSSU"17:09
freemangordonaaah17:09
freemangordonforget about the name, please17:09
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freemangordonI am talking about the concept, name it whatever you like17:10
keriohow should we call this hypotetical super-applet with settings for all the features added?17:10
jon_y"Kerio" preset load!17:10
DocScrutinizer05no matter what it's named, unless it's a name referring to camera it's a poor choice17:10
freemangordon"Extra system settings" etc17:10
kerioFUCKING WHY17:10
kerioIT'S STUPID17:10
kerioWHY ARE THEY EXTRA17:10
DocScrutinizer05or make that "default apps"17:10
DocScrutinizer05and group all pickers for cam, browser, whatnot in there17:11
kerioDocScrutinizer05: but m-h-d settings should go somewhere else17:11
freemangordonkerio: how am I supposed to know that I can switch between different camera-ui versions from "Personalization" applet?17:11
keriono, you switch between different camera-ui versions from the "Camera app. switcher" applet17:11
keriogo open the settings app17:12
DocScrutinizer05just a rationale to put it into something that's defined by property "came with cssu" is no good rationale17:12
freemangordonso, we fill Settings with an applet for every damn gconf key or replacement SW?17:12
freemangordonbullshit17:12
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I will repeat - no matter how it will be called, I am sure we can think of something much more meaningful than "CSSU Settings"17:13
DocScrutinizer05look at existing menu points in settings - most of them are function groups17:13
freemangordonexactly17:13
DocScrutinizer05so we need to decide what function group a picker might belong to17:13
freemangordon:nod:17:14
DocScrutinizer05"default apps" seems nice to me17:14
freemangordonI can bet such does not exist right now17:14
DocScrutinizer05"system" tastes a bit too low level geeky17:14
DocScrutinizer05"personalization" isn't that bad either17:15
freemangordon"Extra"?17:15
DocScrutinizer05hmm, rather unspecific, unless you tell me what qualifies a setting to be "extra"17:15
freemangordonas we can reuse it in the future17:16
kerioDocScrutinizer05: "default apps" and "home screen and task nav" in personalization, cbsms merged with Phone17:16
freemangordonkerio: wish you luck with that merge17:16
kerio:c17:16
keriowhere should the fmtx applet setting go?17:16
freemangordonI am sure you are way better in RE than me and jonwil, as we already gave up on that17:16
keriooh, possibly in the fmtx settings themselves17:17
DocScrutinizer05how's about "UX" for User Experience?17:17
DocScrutinizer05everything regarding GUI at large17:17
kerioDocScrutinizer05: oh come on, everything is user experience17:17
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm User Experience sound better than UX17:17
freemangordonor User Extras?17:17
kerioi mean, notification led should be put there too17:18
DocScrutinizer05I still fail to grok what's qualifying an "extra"17:18
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: everything, that is the idea17:18
DocScrutinizer05if there's extra then I'd guess there's also basic17:18
freemangordonbasic is what already exusts17:18
kerioDocScrutinizer05: pretty much everything under Personalization should go in a hypothetical "User Experience" applet17:18
keriofreemangordon: why is it relevant to the settings?17:19
kerio:s17:19
kerioi don't get it17:19
freemangordonkerio: please stop reorganazing the whole Settings menu, it is pointless17:19
keriohow will a user that buys a n900 and installs cssu right away know what was there before and what isn't?17:19
DocScrutinizer05ok, so differentiation between basic and extras is again historical, not functional17:19
freemangordonkerio: and how much of those do you expect to appear in the future?17:19
kerioirrelevant17:19
kerioif we're going by the current userbase we could stop supporting HAM and tell people to only use apt17:20
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: we can;t rewrite the whole settings menu17:20
DocScrutinizer05I never suggested that17:20
keriofreemangordon: the settings menu is clearly divided by function17:20
freemangordontoo much source code missing17:20
keriowe should group settings inside of applets based on functionality, not history17:20
DocScrutinizer05yep, an unfortunate situation17:21
DocScrutinizer05but - as we see with TV aplet - there's hope and progress17:21
DocScrutinizer05we don't want to counteract that by sloppy design decisions17:21
freemangordonhmm, TBH if I have to take UI decisions, I will put FM and TV under the Devices subcategories17:22
freemangordon*subcategory17:22
DocScrutinizer05:nod:17:23
freemangordonbut we are missing such functionality in Settings AFAIK17:23
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: we can't simply tweak e.g phone submenu17:23
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: but17:23
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: could we *invoke* phone settings as a sub-sub-menu from our own phone2 submenu?17:24
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I think we can, though it will be ugly :D17:24
DocScrutinizer05I know it's not a nice solution, just asking17:24
DocScrutinizer05yes, pretty ugly17:24
freemangordonthe proble could arise by the fact there are lots of functions exported by .so17:25
DocScrutinizer05though sometimes might be better than other alternatives17:25
freemangordonactually that stopped me from continuing RE17:25
keriocan't we like, embed the stock Phone applet in our new one?17:25
freemangordonthe dialog itself is not so complicated17:25
DocScrutinizer05kerio: kinda what I just asked17:26
kerioalso freemangordon: no way, Phone is connectivity17:26
kerioDocScrutinizer05: no, you said invoke it17:26
kerioto me, invoke is "tap a button, popup appears"17:26
DocScrutinizer05yeah, you say embed17:26
freemangordonanyway, I need to go, bbl17:26
kerioyours is probably much easier to do, ofc17:26
* DocScrutinizer05 too17:26
kerioand also uglier17:26
* kerio is eating a yogurt17:27
DocScrutinizer05kerio: think of a small submenu with maybe 3 or 4 buttons, one of them "phone", another one "braodcast&messaging" or whatever17:28
DocScrutinizer05maybe a tad less ugly than including the button for phone into a settings screen with sliders and whatnot17:29
DocScrutinizer05usability wise it means that cbsms settings are one click further away from settings-main than with the prvious idea17:30
kerioso... redesign the Settings menu to mask the fact that we don't have the source to most of the settings? neat17:30
kerioUI programming is about lying, anyway17:30
DocScrutinizer05otoh the "phone" button doesn't drown in all those sliders and checkboxes of our own setting-submenu17:30
DocScrutinizer05we basically introduce a new menu level in between17:31
DocScrutinizer05in settings the button stays like "phone", in the submenu popping up we may have a "basic phone settings" button replacing the former phone button in main menu, plus another one or more buttons pointing to our own 'new' setting-screens17:33
DocScrutinizer05I might prepare a mockup17:33
DocScrutinizer05so we have someting to look at17:33
kerioyeah, yeah, i figured17:33
kerioso... put the current Phone applet inside a button inside a new Phone applet17:34
DocScrutinizer05yes17:34
kerioyo dawg, i heard you like settings17:34
DocScrutinizer05;-)17:34
DocScrutinizer05" open 'settings' -> click 'phone'"  becomes " open 'settings' -> click 'phone' -> click 'basic'"17:36
DocScrutinizer05since " open 'settings' -> click 'phone'" now opens a sub-menu which has only 2 or more buttons, nothing else17:37
DocScrutinizer05I think it's not too ugly, and bearable regarding UX change17:38
* DocScrutinizer05 waves17:40
merlin1991freemangordon: did you upload microb-engine?17:40
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ivgalvezwoah, this is getting funnier every day18:48
ivgalvezI want settings panel to decide which version of Qt I want to use18:48
ivgalvez:D18:48
freemangordonmerlin1991: still no, sorry, have to take care for my daughter for a while :D18:50
freemangordonwill do it in 1-2 hours18:51
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: please stop trolling. You ever seen "want to make firefox your standard browser?" on your PC?18:51
ivgalvezthat's useful for selecting between really different applications18:52
ivgalvezi.e. Firefox vs Opera18:52
DocScrutinizer05oooh, as different as firefox vs MSIE, sure18:52
ivgalvezor whatever18:52
ivgalvezbut camera2ui is supposed to be a replacement to original camera18:53
DocScrutinizer05yeah, sure, the differences between nicocam and stock are for sure not large enough to give user that choice. But WTF are we bothering about nicocam at all then?18:53
ivgalvezto choose which camera application you want to use there is camera-lens-launcher18:53
ivgalvezthat's useful to select between let's say ABC or camera-ui18:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: exactly, why we bother with CSSU at all PR 1.3 is the best thing after the discovery of the sliced bread18:55
freemangordon*next best18:55
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: either one or the other18:55
ivgalvezif you are proposing to integrate camera-lens-launcher features into CSSU, then I'm in18:55
DocScrutinizer05that's exactly what the picker thingie is all about18:55
ivgalvezthen you only need to put camera-lens-launcher in CSSU18:56
DocScrutinizer05for the rest we don't need to make nicocam conflict with nokiacam18:56
freemangordonivgalvez: why not shortcutd then?18:56
ivgalvezcamera-lens-launcher is clear18:57
freemangordonisn't it better/more configurable?18:57
freemangordonaah, ok18:57
ivgalvezand it's only related to lens-launcher18:57
ivgalvezyou know one daemon one feature18:57
kerioivgalvez: wait, why is it a daemon?18:57
ivgalvezit has a drawback though18:57
freemangordonivgalvez: but it is deffinitely not a CSSU candidate, as it can hapily live in extras18:57
ivgalvezfor sure18:57
DocScrutinizer05since it's a both I guess18:58
DocScrutinizer05botch*18:58
kerioalso, CSSU has the power (and the will) to clean up stuff like that18:58
ivgalvezif you don't select a default application to launch when you open the camera cover but you want to show the picker18:58
freemangordonkerio: CSSU is a project, development is done by developers ;)18:58
ivgalvezit takes a bit of time to load the picker18:58
DocScrutinizer05indeed, we won't import a botch done because there was no CSSU to deal with stuff the right way18:58
ivgalvezbecause it's not preloaded at start18:58
DocScrutinizer05aah well, I guess that's a runtime thing then19:00
DocScrutinizer05monitoring dbus, or whatever19:00
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: that's right19:00
kerioso... a botch19:00
kerioa *huge* botch19:00
kerioew19:00
freemangordonmerlin1991: going to upload microb-engine in my home directory19:00
DocScrutinizer05basically yes19:00
ivgalvezno, basic camera does the same19:01
kerioivgalvez: nope19:01
DocScrutinizer05yes, but the picker as suggested by me doe NOT do that19:01
keriokillall camera-ui and then open the lens cover?19:01
DocScrutinizer05camera-default picker simply edits a symlink19:01
ivgalvezthat's really ugly19:02
DocScrutinizer05that's really correct way19:02
keriohuh, it appears ivgalvez is actually right19:02
kerioDocScrutinizer05: we has a minor problem19:02
ivgalvezchanging symlinks to select which application are yyou launching?19:02
keriothe one that listens to lenscover open is actually camera-ui19:02
ivgalvezexactly19:02
kerioi mean, it's not a *big* problem19:03
DocScrutinizer05yes19:03
keriobut still19:03
DocScrutinizer05and I hope nicocam as well19:03
ivgalvezyes it also does that19:03
kerioyou have to make sure to kill the old camera-ui and start the new one in daemon mode when you change the camera ui19:03
kerioand yeah, it's nicocam too19:03
DocScrutinizer05and this camera-lens-launcher too, so it might be third in the picker's list of default apps19:04
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's becoming a bigger mess over time, btw19:04
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: come on man, I wasted almost an year to give n900 some more free RAM, now what, you are searching for fillers?19:04
ivgalvezcamera-lens-launcher works out of the box19:05
DocScrutinizer05no way we'll make camera-lens-launcher the default app to preload on every boot, unconditionally and mandatory19:05
ivgalvezit already allows to select whcih application must be launched as you suggested19:05
ivgalvezor to show a picker in runtime19:05
ivgalvezyou don't need that to be preloaded19:06
ivgalvezit already allows you to select which application should be launched, however, if you don't want to launch an application, but show the picker, you can as well19:06
DocScrutinizer05we might have a closer look into it19:06
freemangordonwell, I have another idea19:06
ivgalvezthat picker is what is not preloaded19:06
ivgalvezand so it's not as fast as it would be desirable19:07
freemangordonput nicocam in -stable and provide a chooser via -extras19:07
ivgalvezbut I think that this application is already doing what you propose plus the extra picker at run time19:07
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: ^^^19:07
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: we already decided to make nicocam optional(-alternative)19:08
DocScrutinizer05iirc19:08
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, take a closer look to that application, it seems pretty nice to me19:08
DocScrutinizer05ok19:08
DocScrutinizer05:-19:08
DocScrutinizer05)19:08
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: might be, in extras-to-be19:08
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freemangordonbut as there are still no extras-to-be and noone knows when there will be, while nicocam is in -testing for several moths with no bugs reported (afaik) so it can be assumed stable19:10
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: there've been more users than just me who frowned at replacing nokiacam unconditionally19:10
freemangordonand all of the use n900?19:10
freemangordonand CSSU-testing?19:11
keriowoah wtf something upgraded the metapackage19:12
keriooh, neat, -thumb1519:12
DocScrutinizer05and no, in my book nicocam is not stable yet, since it introduces instability on my system it seems. So if I don't see a way to opt-out of nicocam, I think it's introducing regressions to users of CSSU-S that can't get cured19:12
freemangordonkerio: guess who19:12
keriofreemangordon: but... it's brok :C19:12
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: sorry, it seems I have missed the "instabilities" part, would you elaborate?19:13
freemangordonkerio: what is broken?19:13
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keriocan't upgrade or distupgrade it19:13
keriobecause of the 0cssu0 thing, i think19:13
keriohrmpf19:13
keriolet me see if HAM behaves more nicely19:14
DocScrutinizer05DSP "segfaults", and yes you'll gonna tell me that's unrelated to nicocam, but unless you explain to me what else is causing this instability in DSP I've never encountered before, I tend to blame nicocam nevertheless19:14
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: stock kernel?19:14
DocScrutinizer05yep19:14
keriofreemangordon: wtf, your metapackage depends on a strict version? :c19:15
freemangordonkerio: yes19:15
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kerioDepends: libnspr4 (= 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1) but 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb0 is to be installed19:16
kerioare those versions even in the repos?19:17
freemangordonkerio: NFC, it could be that merlin1991 has broken the repo somehow, going to check19:17
freemangordonthey should be19:17
kerioboth HAM and apt complain19:17
keriohm, apparently they're there19:17
freemangordonmerlin1991: ping19:18
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: anyway it seems we agreed on making optional whatever possible, I.E. as long as it's not fixing a bug in stock maemo5 that can't get fixed in any other way, we don't want to force something on user if we as well can make it optional(-alternative). Seems this pretty exactly describes nokiacam vs nicocam sitation19:18
keriono, no, apt-cache policy claims they're there19:18
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: nicocam fixes at least one long standing bug in stock camera-ui19:19
freemangordona severe one19:19
DocScrutinizer05is this bug any relevant for other system parts that DEPEND on it being fixed?19:20
DocScrutinizer05cause then nicocam would get pulled in via MP dependency19:20
keriofreemangordon: it appears that you guys thoroughly screwed the versioning on this one19:20
kerioinstalling specific versions works, though19:20
keriosudo apt-get install microb-engine=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 microb-engine-common=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3-certs=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnspr4=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb119:21
DocScrutinizer05or - better - dependency in the package that depends on the bug being fixed19:21
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it would have to be a dependency in the user19:21
keriothe user depends on the camera19:21
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: Bug 7062 , you judge it19:22
povbot_Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/7062 Video camera does not record smoothly19:22
keriofreemangordon: apt will almost never willingly downgrade a package19:22
DocScrutinizer05well, the user gets optional-alternative (at least, if not plain optional) nicocam package. So if he doen't feel comfortable with this "bug2 (whatever it is) he can install a better alternative of his liking19:22
chem|stmerlin1991: ping19:22
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: then we should make every package in CSSU optional19:23
DocScrutinizer05basically that's the idea19:23
DocScrutinizer05there are a few that can't go optional19:23
DocScrutinizer05exactly when other mandatory system stuff depends on the package being fixed or providing a changed API19:24
merlin1991freemangordon: pong19:24
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kerioso... we don't fix bugs that only affect **the user**?19:25
freemangordonmerlin1991: something loks broken in -thumb repo19:25
freemangordon*looks19:25
DocScrutinizer05and the idea is user can "tag" the whole cssu-extras group of optional packages and install them all, or select any arbitrary subset19:25
merlin1991freemangordon: could you be a tad more precise?19:25
DocScrutinizer05freedom of choice, you know :-)19:26
keriomerlin1991: the change in versioning requires apt to willingly downgrade packages19:26
keriowhich is something that it'll *never* do19:26
DocScrutinizer05never force the user to use anything that as well can be optional19:26
kerionot even with the exact version request from the metapackage19:26
freemangordonapt-get tries to install 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb0 instead of  microb-engine-common (= 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb119:26
keriono, it doesn't try to install it19:26
kerioit's already installed19:26
DocScrutinizer05non-optional package would e.g. be any arbitrary system that corrupts filesystem19:27
kerioso requests to downgrade it are ignored19:27
keriobut it's no big deal, just sudo apt-get install microb-engine=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 microb-engine-common=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3-certs=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnspr4=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb119:27
DocScrutinizer05or something hogging CPU19:27
merlin1991hm there is some do plz downgrade option for apt iirc19:27
freemangordonkerio: have in mind you're not the only one to use -thumb repo19:27
DocScrutinizer05or messing up whole system or parts of system in another unbearable way19:27
freemangordonkerio: i think there are some users of -thumb that can't find their ass using both hands19:28
keriowell then they shouldn't use software explicitly marked as TESTING19:28
DocScrutinizer05freedom-of-choice rule may get relaxed on any patch obviously not introducing any change whatsoever to UX19:28
freemangordonkerio: irrelevant19:28
DocScrutinizer05and as well not introducing unpredictable new risk19:29
keriofreemangordon: regardless, the only option you have is to correctly bump the versions19:29
keriofreemangordon: so that the new version is higher than 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb019:29
merlin1991freemangordon: yeah you'll have to bump the version in some way, debian approach ususally is to add an epoch to fix version problems19:29
DocScrutinizer05cssu-estras got invented just to make you happy with all that stuff that otherwise had a hard time making it into cssu-core (aka mandatory, or MP)19:30
freemangordonmerlin1991: ok, you do it for -testing, o'll do it for -thumb. will build both and will upload -testing version in my home directory19:30
freemangordonwill ping you when ready19:30
merlin1991freemangordon:  for -testing we won't need the bump19:30
merlin1991there was no microb-engine in testing yet19:31
freemangordonmerlin1991: I know, I want to keep -testing and -devel in sync19:31
DocScrutinizer05and I think it's not fair to now start arguing about "but it's still not there completely, and probably never will" - hewlp getting it done instead, FFS!19:31
keriowait, there's a microb-engine in -devel?19:31
freemangordonkerio: no, there is no19:31
freemangordon(hmm, is it correct to say that in English?)19:32
kerio"no, there is not" or "no, there isn't"19:32
freemangordonthanks :)19:32
merlin1991freemangordon: k well build them and I use them :)19:33
freemangordonmerlin1991: you want me to increase versions of both -thumb and -testing? ok, just give me the exact version for -testing as you want it to be19:34
keriofreemangordon: are these just rebuilds of the same version? :c19:35
keriolaaaaaaaaaaaame19:35
freemangordonsure19:35
merlin1991freemangordon: what's the version in -devel?19:35
freemangordonmerlin1991: there is no microb-engine in -devel19:35
merlin1991ah oops, -thumb :D19:36
freemangordon:D19:36
freemangordonjust a second19:36
freemangordon microb-engine-common (= 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb119:36
kerioanyway, i suggest 20100401-1.9.2-5.2-20120904+0m5+0cssu0-thumb119:36
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keriothat's less than 20100401-1.9.2-5.3+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 and more than 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb119:37
freemangordonkerio: 20100401 is mozilla release date19:37
merlin1991freemangordon:  make that 1:20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0 for testing and 1:20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumbsomehting for -thumb19:37
freemangordonor baseline or whatever19:37
freemangordonmerlin1991: ok19:37
keriomerlin1991: 1:?19:38
merlin1991epoch19:38
freemangordonyep19:38
merlin19911: > than anything but 2:19:38
keriobut...19:38
kerioyou screw over versioning forever, like this19:38
merlin1991kerio: we have a version clash, and the debian way to fix that is to add an epoch in the front19:38
freemangordonkerio: it is invented for situations like current AFAIK19:38
kerioadd the epoch right before the clash, instead!19:39
keriomeh, do whatever actually19:39
kerioso you'll just have to keep 1: in front of the version from now on?19:39
merlin1991yep19:39
freemangordonmerlin1991: "source version is 1:20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1"19:43
freemangordonok?19:43
merlin1991yep19:45
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freemangordonmerlin1991: ping20:24
merlin1991freemangordon: pong20:24
freemangordonmerlin1991: you should delete microb-engine from ther repo :(20:24
merlin1991again import fail?20:24
freemangordonreprepro ignores the epoch20:24
freemangordonyep20:24
* merlin1991 bitch slaps reprepro20:24
merlin1991freemangordon: done20:25
freemangordondidn't help :(20:26
freemangordonmerlin1991: same error, check inotcoming20:27
merlin1991err where did the epoch go?20:28
merlin1991Will call action reprepro for: microb-engine_20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1_armel.changes20:28
freemangordonmerlin1991: afaik epoch is not included in the name20:29
freemangordonopen .changes file, it is there20:29
merlin1991gotta remeove the tracking for microb-engine20:29
merlin1991gimme a sec20:29
freemangordonok20:30
merlin1991freemangordon: t try now20:32
freemangordonk20:32
freemangordonseems ok :)20:34
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: actually you got a good point regarding default-app-picker needs to become a separate new package. Otherwise shit becomes unmaintainable20:34
freemangordonlemme check if I can update through HAM20:34
merlin1991apt-worker afaik handles epochs properly20:35
freemangordonyep, just to be sure20:35
freemangordonand after all it is supposed I am bold enough to install it on my "production" device if I expect the others to install it too :D20:36
DocScrutinizer05hehe20:37
freemangordonno, really20:37
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DocScrutinizer05so after I finnaly accepted better rationale regarding packaging of picker, we might go ahead considering what this means for shipping nicocam as optional package without picker included. I'm not averse to ship it optional for S when it doesn't conflict with nokiacam, I.E. doesn't uninstall that. just please make that symlink point to nicocam binary rather than replacing symlink by binary20:40
freemangordonkerio: "Operating system successfully updated"20:41
merlin1991dang luf upload rtcom async already :D20:44
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: how's MP supposed to be handled regarding such optional packages like nicocam that doesn't conflict with nokiacam? would both packets provide cameraui and apt simply checking if one of both already installed?20:44
merlin1991atm we have no dependencies on nokia* stuff20:45
merlin1991so mp simply wouldn't change20:45
DocScrutinizer05mhm20:45
DocScrutinizer05cool :-)20:45
_ade_ping merlin199120:45
merlin1991_ade_: here20:45
DocScrutinizer05so our MP just pulls in stuff we want to distribute, right?20:45
DocScrutinizer05the mandatory stuff20:46
merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: yes MP pulls in system upgrades that have to be installed20:46
DocScrutinizer05sweet20:46
_ade_merlin1991: you know the subject: the replacement clock... ivgalvez brought it up. What are the short and long term options?20:47
DocScrutinizer05_ade_: we should get your pkg as cssu-extras optional-alternative into next cssu-t20:47
DocScrutinizer05ham can't handle that yet, so users have to use apt-get until that changes20:48
merlin1991short term we can always ship the package in cssu-devel so that people can install it via apt, long term we'll see it in -testing with all the proper quirks20:48
_ade_should it uninstall clock-ui, how should it work?20:49
merlin1991the long term version yes, and I guess the short term verison aswell20:49
DocScrutinizer05well, if merlin thinks it needs some quarantine time in cssu-devel and some testing before it goes to T, fine with me20:49
merlin1991_ade_: what's the package name currently20:50
_ade_there is no package at the moment, just the binary20:50
_ade_And I am not a deb guru...20:50
DocScrutinizer05that's why we talk ;-)20:51
merlin1991ah okay so I'll have todo some packaging in order to get this up, k :)20:51
_ade_That would be nice. Aapo has done some packaging before20:51
freemangordonand we can put that in -devel20:51
freemangordonas soon as it has .deb20:52
merlin1991yeah so I'll look into the packaging stuff as soon as I've got this -testing release sorted out20:52
freemangordon:nod:20:53
_ade_merlin1991: you have experience with qmake stuff?20:53
merlin1991_ade_: I fight with make/qmake/cmake/autotools on regular basis :D20:55
_ade_good to hear ;-)20:55
DocScrutinizer05condolences ;-)20:55
merlin1991and ofc debhelper also likes to throw some stones into my way20:55
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merlin1991though it's far easier to manage :P20:55
freemangordonwell, we have several Qt projects in CSSU, should be relatively easy to tweak some of them20:56
_ade_merlin1991: So you can to manage yourself with the sources in git? That would make like easier for me20:56
merlin1991_ade_: when I do the packaging fun I'll have to rearrange the source a bit, but I'll try to move everything into a src/ directory so that it stays close to the old system for you20:57
freemangordonthe fuck, git clone microb-engine takes ages :(20:57
merlin1991freemangordon: you don't have to reclone each time20:58
merlin1991git clean -df && git reset --hard achieves the same20:58
_ade_merlin1991: Note that I also made a version with a new feature: specific date support, but I did not put that in git for now. Maybe it could get there later, after some more testing20:58
freemangordonmerlin1991: I know, but patching failed20:58
freemangordonand I don;t want to push broken source in -testing20:59
freemangordon:)20:59
merlin1991freemangordon: that's what the reset --hard part is for ;)20:59
freemangordonjust in case, you know20:59
freemangordonmerlin1991: it does not clean the remnants of untracked files20:59
merlin1991git clean -df removes all untracked files20:59
freemangordonhmm, thanks :D21:00
freemangordondidn't know that21:00
merlin1991just bear in mind if you have a .gitignore file git clean ignores those aswell21:00
freemangordonok21:00
merlin1991so in that case you need rm .gitignore && git clean -df && git reset --hard :D21:00
DocScrutinizer05_ade_: support for date format according to... err locale setting would be very welcome21:03
_ade_DocScrutininzer05: it does21:03
DocScrutinizer05:-)21:04
freemangordon_ade_: which Qt did you use to test that with? stock or CSSU?21:04
_ade_CSSU21:04
freemangordonok21:04
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freemangordonmerlin1991: could you merge that https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-desktop/merge_requests/2521:10
_ade_merlin1991: I also made a dutch translation for the orientation mode applet. Could you accept my merge request?21:11
merlin1991I will21:12
freemangordon_ade_: aren't you able to commit?21:15
freemangordon_ade_: sorry, misread21:15
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freemangordonmerlin1991: microb-engine is ready, uploading under /home/freemangordon/microb-engine21:59
freemangordonnot tested though, both devices are on -thumb21:59
merlin1991freemangordon: did you clean the old files?21:59
freemangordonI did clone ;)22:00
merlin1991no i mean on the server, because you've uploaded the earlier files aswell22:00
freemangordonyes22:00
freemangordonthe were in the same place22:00
freemangordon*they22:00
freemangordonmerlin1991: still uploading, will ping you when ready22:01
merlin1991okay22:01
keriofreemangordon: are there any actual changes to that?22:03
kerioor is it just a version change?22:03
freemangordonkerio: "that" is what?22:05
arceanhi merlin199122:05
keriothe repackaging of the -cssu0 into -0cssu022:05
arceanmerlin1991, I have a merge request https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-desktop/merge_requests/2522:05
freemangordonarcean: hehe22:05
freemangordon21:09 <freemangordon> merlin1991: could you merge that https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-desktop/merge_requests/2522:06
arcean:)22:06
keriofreemangordon: meh, whatever, i'll update anyway22:06
merlin1991[20:12:37] <merlin1991> I will22:06
freemangordon:D22:06
arceanok, thank you :D22:06
keriofreemangordon: you could've just told people to fix it manually, btw22:06
freemangordonkerio: you now have libcurl3 and microb rebased to correct source code22:07
freemangordonin -thumb22:07
freemangordonkerio: naah, it is not how you should treat yout "customers"22:07
freemangordon*your22:07
freemangordonnever22:07
freemangordonmerlin1991: upload completed22:08
merlin1991freemangordon: thanks22:08
freemangordonnp22:08
freemangordonkerio: after all it is my fault. And it is easy to be fixed. On the other hand - just imagine what will do noobs on TMO when they won't be able to upgrade22:10
freemangordonmerlin1991: would you just share the final upgrade list, so I can put the same in -devel22:16
freemangordonsorry, not -devel but -thumb22:16
keriofreemangordon: will merlin1991 keep the versions matched, btw?22:27
freemangordonkerio: what versions?22:28
keriofor the stuff that entered cssu-thumb first, in cssu-stable and cssu-testing22:28
freemangordon-stable is different beer. -testing should have the same versions, without -thumbN suffix22:29
freemangordonkerio: also have in mind -thumb is based on latest RELEASED -testing22:29
freemangordonso it depends on me to put the correct versions in next -thumb upgrade22:29
freemangordonhmm, which reminds me to check Qt22:30
kerioanyway, +1 for correct upgrade22:32
keriodo i have to reboot now? i really don't want to :c22:32
freemangordonhmm, we might have a problem with Qt22:32
freemangordonkerio: yes22:32
keriobut i already installed the updated versions22:32
keriothe one with the botched version numbers22:32
kerio*ones22:32
keriomeh, fine22:33
freemangordonkerio: it is up to you22:33
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DocScrutinizer05btw this TV settings thingie is rather nice, apart from the puzzling initial state of the enable checkbox23:09
DocScrutinizer05so, seems to work, seems it seen some time in T "quarantine", no objections for S from my side23:11
DocScrutinizer05dunno if it's the thingie or my TV that blows chunks on scale=100%23:12
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kerioblows chunks how?=23:29
kerio?23:29
DocScrutinizer05black screen23:32
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keriodoes it work at 95?23:39
kerioalso wtf does scale do'23:39
kerio?23:39

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