IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Friday, 2012-08-31

*** FireFly has quit IRC00:01
*** FireFly has joined #maemo-ssu00:01
*** andre__ has quit IRC00:42
*** zeq has quit IRC01:09
*** zeq has joined #maemo-ssu01:23
*** zeq has quit IRC01:59
*** _xnt14 has quit IRC02:29
*** _xnt14 has joined #maemo-ssu02:33
*** M4rtinK has quit IRC03:00
*** nox- has quit IRC03:24
*** arcean has quit IRC03:52
*** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo-ssu03:58
*** amiconn_ has joined #maemo-ssu05:52
*** amiconn has quit IRC05:52
*** amiconn_ is now known as amiconn05:52
*** LaoLang_coo_ has joined #maemo-ssu08:14
*** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC08:17
*** M13 has joined #maemo-ssu08:34
*** angelangle has joined #maemo-ssu09:13
*** angelangle has quit IRC09:15
*** kgu has quit IRC09:16
Estel_kerio, defrag on device with hardware wear leveling? Are You kiding me?;)10:16
Estel_kidding*10:16
Estel_lol @ kiding*. something related to kid, probably10:16
kerioEstel_: huh... defrag on ext3, yes10:17
Estel_freemangordon, how is life in CSSUland?10:17
kerioaka defrag on a perfect block device10:17
Estel_kerio, Your logical filesystem get fcked up by physical filesystem via hardware wear levelling ;)10:17
kerionotice how i said /home and not /10:17
Estel_i.e got spread on eMMC anyway10:17
keriobut... it's perfect! :C10:18
Estel_sure, 256 NAND doesn't have hardware wear levelling, so You rely on ubifs for that. but opt and home is on eMMC and hardware wear leveller is implemented transparently10:18
Estel_i.e. no way to turn it off, in the world10:19
Estel_(turning off would be beneficial for TrueCrypt, but You can't do it on eMMC nor SD cards)10:19
Estel_(which is lame, btw)10:19
keriobeneficial performance-wise or security-wise?10:19
Estel_security, only10:19
keriowell, if there's no way to access the raw flash...10:20
Estel_it's about fact, that if You overwrite You encrypted partition - for any reason - old chunks are still spread on physical device10:20
Estel_if You use same password than before (when re-creating encrypted partition, for example0, You actually aid cryptography10:20
keriohm, i wonder if the emmc supports "discard"10:20
Estel_attack10:20
Estel_of course it's not trivial to retrieve such chunks, and would require physical access to flash10:21
Estel_no, it doesn't10:21
Estel_well, I've mentioned other cases where hardware wear levelling is PITA in TrueCrypt annoucement thread10:21
Estel_in FAQ10:21
Estel_generally, it's nothing critical, just require to avoid doing some things, or, if feel paranoic, overwriting rest of eMMC with 0 or 1, when You're changing truecrypt'ed partitions/containers layout :P10:22
Estel_generally, all of wear-levelling vs TrueCrypt concerns are quite on "paranoia" level, i.e. no need to worry about it if You're encrypting personal photos, etc10:22
Estel_but definitelly worth following if You're oppositionist in Iran, for example10:23
kerio[relevant xkcd here]10:23
Estel_especially considering, how Irani fckd' up "web of trust" & gmail, via ssl certificate crisis with digi-something10:23
Estel_and by "fckd up" I don't mean "breakage", rather "fckd in ass"10:24
Estel_it's funny, bTw, that actually, firefox helped to reveal borked certificate authority10:25
Estel_at least this behemot memory usage was used, once, to do good :P (sadly no, as it wasn't related to resources usage, at all)10:25
*** freemangordon has quit IRC10:25
*** freemangordon has joined #maemo-ssu10:26
Estel_what concerns me, though, is that for 3 days I'm asking merlin1991 about status of busybox-power for CSSU - just about decisions, not implementation status - and reply is just quiet and lonely space10:26
Estel_seems that no other ways, than starting "show" in mailing list/TMO :(10:27
freemangordonEstel_: can you imagine merlin1991 is on holiday with very bad internet access?10:27
Estel_sure10:27
Estel_that woudl explain things a lot :)10:27
freemangordonwell, wait him caome back, ok10:27
freemangordon?10:27
Estel_of course. Wasn't he just back, 2 days ago?10:27
Estel_3 days ago*10:28
freemangordonno, he wasn't, read the logs10:28
Estel_my bad, then :)10:28
Estel_and no worry, I'm just "little" dissapointed, that one CSSU maintainer said one thing, and another one - quite inactive normally, if You ask me - denies it in TMO thread10:28
Estel_resulting in 3 pages of discussion in otherwise productive busybox-power thread10:29
freemangordonafaik merlin1991 is in greece, spain, or some other sunny place10:29
Estel_no hostile intentions here, just curious :)10:29
* Estel_ is jealous10:29
freemangordondon't be, it is too hot there :P10:29
Estel_BTW, once You've said that DocScrutinizer05 isn't CSSU maintainer. Few days ago he linked me to garage page, where he is listed as maintainer, said that it's the case for more than a year, or longer10:29
Estel_freemangordon, hehe. We have few rainy dais ahead, here10:30
freemangordonthat page? https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cssu/10:31
Estel_what I'm pissed about, is just information havoc. Also, it turned out, that busybox-power isn't "installable from extras without hassle", as it's, in fact, postinst script with binary replacement. *only* other possible - and proper - way would be to add it via CSSU, as it's critical systemk component10:31
Estel_freemangordon, yes10:31
Estel_this page10:31
kerioEstel_: well, not really10:32
freemangordonwell, he is admin on THAT page ;)10:32
keriomake a repo, call it "busybox"10:32
Estel_kerio, make a repo? seriously? CSSU is repo for such things :)10:32
kerioand make sure the version is higher than the other busyboxen10:32
Estel_and "make a repo" doesn't fail into "installable from extras"10:32
Estel_freemangordon, well, suspected something fishy10:32
freemangordonsee, I want merlin1991 back before continuing that discussion, ok?10:32
Estel_sure10:32
Estel_wanted to propose exactly same thing10:32
freemangordonhold your horses then :P10:33
Estel_no need to add into information mess around CSSU :)10:33
freemangordonno need to make unnecesarry noise10:33
keriofreemangordon: are you kidding me10:34
keriohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7B-AlKTdGQ10:34
Estel_one good thing fromt his whole mess - many people got interested about CSSU and way it's maintained. Maybe, just maybe, ages long idea of "steering group" for cssu will got revived, at some point10:34
Estel_more and more devels and users would benefit from knowing what can be expected, and what not10:34
Estel_kerio, wanna blow up my speakers?10:34
freemangordonbut to be clear - CSSU maintainers are MohammadAG(CSSU-T), merlin1991(CSSU-S CSSU-T(backup) and chem|st (CSSU-S)10:34
kerioabout half of RFUS is unnecessary noise10:35
Estel_freemangordon, thanks a lot for that clarification10:35
Estel_chem|st, lol10:35
keriofreemangordon: and freemangordon(CSSU-Th)!10:35
freemangordonkerio: no10:35
kerio:(10:35
freemangordonCSSU-thumb is not "official" CSSU10:35
freemangordonotherwise, yes, I am the one who upload stuff there :D10:36
freemangordon*uploads10:36
kerio(:10:36
freemangordonthe point is - don't put -thumb and CSSU in one place until there is a need to do so ;)10:37
kerioEstel_: btw, blowing up speakers is what that song is supposed to do10:38
keriowell, kinda10:38
freemangordonhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLgporKLnpA10:42
chem|stEstel_: ?10:49
Estel_chem|st, sorry for pinging, You were only mentioned10:50
Estel_see full context - I was just surprised, as I wasn't aware of You being actively contributing to CSSU in any way, for a long time (haven't confirmed it, just feeling, thus my comment - excuse me if it's not true)10:50
Estel_kerio, see query10:51
kerioi lost the query \_o_/10:51
keriomy client is stupid10:51
kerioi just hoped it wasn't important10:51
Estel_wasn't at all, will re-send it anyway :P10:55
Estel_freemangordon, fuck! I just noticed that my work on CSSU-T wiki page wasn't saved, what the f? Probably browser hickup10:58
Estel_have backup, will fix it ASAP10:59
Estel_sorry, I was sure it's up and running hapilly10:59
Estel_for a few days, actually10:59
Estel_CSSU-T as in CSSU-Th, sorry10:59
chem|stEstel_: well I come from alpha testing and some of the early stages of MohammadAG's stuff past my device like "would someone mind to test that real quick? - reflash"11:12
chem|stEstel_: and now I will grow some balls and take over stable! HA11:12
chem|stI am not very good in doing bugreports as I like to talk to devils in irc instead of filing it properly... but that is from being used to alpha-testing... there were no such thing as bugtracking apart of a spreadsheet11:14
chem|stEstel_: and btw it is again your attitude that makes people mad at you, I for one ignore it for a long time now, but laughing at people whom actually did some more than just talking is nuts11:16
*** Estel_ is now known as dxgxcg11:17
chem|st*facepalm*11:17
*** dxgxcg is now known as Estel_11:17
Estel_chem|st, peace, it wasn't offensive, just stating facts, and only when you've asked :)11:18
chem|styou pinged me...11:18
chem|stI did not ask!11:19
Estel_I feel it strange, when someone not related to project for a looooong time - and as You said Yourself, You were never really into CSSU thing - is listed as maintainer. that'sd all, it doesn't offend You.11:19
Estel_Until you're (clearly) overreactive about Your ego.11:19
Estel_no, never pinged You11:19
Estel_commented during discussion11:19
Estel_mentioning someone's nick != pinging11:19
Estel_so take a deep breath and relax :)11:20
Estel_BTw, out of curiosity, if You are here, already - once You've mentioned, that You're able to dissasemble and assemble back again n900 in 20 minutes (as answer to me, speaking about time required to put back again flip-flop mechanism of N950 - You though, that I was talking about N900)11:21
Estel_I have asked You - out of curiosity - why it takes You so long?11:21
Estel_you've never answered, though11:21
Estel_i'm just curious, which part is most bitchy for most people (of assembling device)11:22
Estel_as ussually, it takes 5-7 minutes to dissasemble and assemble, including screen (2 minutes depends on screen connector, which can be tricky, even for trained people)11:22
chem|stthe domesheet is an ass11:23
chem|stall the shielding boxes11:23
DocScrutinizer05(([2012-08-31 09:34:53] <freemangordon> but to be clear - CSSU maintainers are MohammadAG(CSSU-T), merlin1991(CSSU-S CSSU-T(backup) and chem|st (CSSU-S)))  ----  excatly, and those decide on their peer&steering-group, and - like it or leave it - they don't listen to estel with his bitching11:24
chem|stif disassambling does not inlcude those it is those 8 screws off those some clips of and everything back together again11:24
chem|stthat was what I did after a wheatbeer attack, I'd guess some minutes?11:24
DocScrutinizer05btw my contribution is to constantly dispute with fools who think THEY are steering group and smarter than those who got a word by merit.11:25
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: I love you!11:25
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, in fact, I find You mentioning garage page with You being listed as admin - suggesting that it means You're a maintainer - quite cheap11:26
Estel_but as said, I'll leave it until merlin1991 comes back11:26
DocScrutinizer05I give a fuck about your definition of maintainer, it's simply irrelevant to CSSU11:26
chem|stI did not follow busybox stuff as I don't give a fuck!11:26
chem|stwhat does it fix?11:27
Estel_he, he, so i;ll gladly reffer to "fortunatelly, DocScrutinizer05 isn't maintainer, so all things presented is his private opinion,only, equal to every ordinary CSSU user" in context of busybox-power11:27
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: ONCE AGAIN SOME FOOLS WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING MANDATORY THAT'S *ALREADY* OPTIONAL, JUST FOR THE "BENEFIT" OF ANOTHER 500K OF ROOTFS EASTED11:27
Estel_chem|st, upstream bugfixes, recent actual busybox version.11:27
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: OOOPS CAPSLOCK, SORRY11:27
DocScrutinizer05dammit11:28
Estel_it isn't optional, and You were delibatery spreading FUD about it. It's *not* easily installable from extras.11:28
Estel_Only one way to replace busybox properly, via package, is CSSU.11:28
DocScrutinizer05bullshit11:28
Estel_package in extras use dirty trick, that replaces binary file via postinst script11:28
Estel_ugly and inneficcient11:28
Estel_no other way, as it's core system package11:28
DocScrutinizer05so why do WE care?11:28
chem|stEstel_: that is not realy mandatory if there is nothing in cssu actually needing it capiché?11:28
Estel_You could distribute whole CSSU via "postinst script that replace binaries", but it's *wrong!* and wrong again.11:28
Estel_chem|st, reffer to busybox-power release notes, for lsit of fixed bugs11:29
Estel_list*11:29
kerio*capisc'11:29
DocScrutinizer05I could kick you for constant trolling11:29
Estel_we actually have busybox update in CSSU - that adds portrait support to it, sic!11:29
DocScrutinizer05we could roll an estel cssu distro11:29
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: don't let me do it°11:29
chem|st(TM)11:29
DocScrutinizer05we could eat shit11:29
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, sure, you could kick everyone and feel powewr! But it's pathetic, again, everytime You speak about it, during discussion.11:29
chem|stwe could make him eat shit o.O11:29
Estel_and speaks poorly about You11:29
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's actually just 300k wasted if you use the thumbified version, btw11:30
chem|stEstel_: my browser is stalling... would you mind to state some bugfixes that are really important?11:30
DocScrutinizer05kerio: thanks! and it's even 90mb saved, if we don't use emacs version11:30
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, like it or not, i'mabsolutely sure, that CSSU will progress, witrh thing like busybox-power and - much later - thumb. Well, again, no need to argue, future will tell who was right :)11:31
Estel_chem|st, sorry, read busybox-power logs Yourself, i'm not Your search engine.11:31
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: who booted emacs?11:31
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: so what? maybe you're sure the earth is a disk11:31
DocScrutinizer05I don't care11:31
chem|stEstel_: FUCK YOU I JUST STATED THAT MY BROWSER STALLED!11:31
Estel_well, CSSu would benefit *much* if You would care, actually, in my opinion ;)11:31
Estel_chem|st, sorry, missunderstanding11:32
chem|stEstel_: ok thank so no facts just wishes...11:32
Estel_I though it's my browser stalled -> which busybox power bugfix will help with it11:32
Estel_i.e. as for browser in N900, which is irrelevant11:32
chem|stno here... darn ff11:32
Estel_sure, wait a second11:32
chem|stupdates are progressed for minutes now11:32
Estel_chem|st, from top of my head, swapon finally support priorities properly11:33
Estel_waiting 'till page loads :)11:33
chem|stI hate being at work... we have a "no linux" politician upstairs11:34
Estel_(i.e. setting swap priority on stock busybox was ignored, for no reason, as this parameter was listed in -h)11:34
Estel_chem|st, other thing from top of my head - proper shell history handling11:34
Estel_both for multi-instances of x-term11:35
chem|stEstel_: you know that stuff in cssu is meant to go to stable some day...11:35
Estel_of course11:35
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: if you still haven't groked it, my contribution to CSSU is exactly what I'm doing all the time: keeping overview of the larger perspective, check for stupid ideas and explain why they won't fly, find better alternatives if the original intention has any inherent value. So basically YOU give me tons of workload11:35
Estel_busybox-power is in fact much older project than CSSU ;)11:35
DocScrutinizer05so what?11:35
Estel_one of msot respected and stable ones11:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, it's nice, as my contribution to CSSu is explaining whjy You'r arguments are totally made up, biased, and irrelevant. Happy now? :)11:35
chem|st+1 so what?11:35
Estel_and least we have balance in universe11:36
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: WE DON'T NEED bb-p in cssu. ETX11:36
chem|stcssu is no fancy "power" playground11:36
Estel_chem|st, as for Your question "chem|st> Estel_: you know that stuff in cssu is meant to go to stable some day..."11:36
Estel_busybox-power is much more stable than cssu-S, anyway :P11:36
chem|st*sigh*11:37
Estel_as for other fixes, it's really hard to mention in IRC - just check upstream fixes for busybox, since Maemo's  ancient version11:37
Estel_tons and tons of them.11:37
Estel_and I mean only fixes, not enchancements.11:37
Estel_chem|st, busybox-power have -power in name jsut as a kind of pun...11:38
Estel_but I see that both You and DocScrutinizer05 have problem with things having "power" in name, heh?11:38
chem|stEstel_: maemo is literally sarge crossed with edge and people try to go wheezy with eating parts of squeeze on the way up11:38
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, speak what You want - I'm absolutely sure that busybox-power *will* be included in CSSU. Wan't to risk bootle of best beer?:)11:38
Estel_hehe11:39
chem|stwe are trying to let it become squeeze and not sid11:39
Estel_well, the thing is that busybox-power meet every single smallest criteria/requiments to get into CSSU - upstream bugfixes, well tested, actively maintainer over a years, can't be distributed properly outside CSSU11:39
Estel_and DocScrutinizer05  is bitching about it only due to personal prefferences11:40
Estel_thats the point :)11:40
Estel_fortunately, DocScrutinizer05's influence on CSSU is much lower than he like to thing it is, so i'm absolutely sure it will made it into CSSU, very soon.11:40
chem|stdoes it benefit cssu now (I am not asking about later I am asking about now!)11:40
Estel_until that, no much need for arguing, as neither of us (me or DocScrutinizer05) is deciding about it11:40
Estel_sure11:40
keriochem|st: how does MHD benefit cssu?11:40
Estel_but define "benefit" would be great11:41
Estel_as nothing in CSSU benefit CSSU :P11:41
Estel_how portrait support benefit CSSU?11:41
Estel_CSSU is meant to benefit users, not itself11:41
chem|stbusybox is not a user benefit11:41
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: you're spamming channel with bullshit. Nobody is interested in your delusions, and we're definitely not amused about your lies11:42
Estel_stop speaking about "everybody" or "nobody", speak for Yourself11:42
Estel_chem|st, what? hahaha11:42
DocScrutinizer05so I declare busybox-power as a ban'able subjext in this chan just for you11:43
Estel_busybox-power - even with current, borked implementation via binary replacement - have more users than cssu11:43
chem|stEstel_: you really expect me to trust you after all the shit you rolled the past 3 month?11:43
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, sorry, but I have in certain place, what You declare.11:43
DocScrutinizer05:shrug:11:43
keriohm, i don't know if that translates well to english11:43
DocScrutinizer05you've been warnned11:43
Estel_chem|st, you think that I care if You trust me? Nice from You, but, well...11:43
DocScrutinizer05officially11:43
chem|stEstel_: you still do not get the difference11:44
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, You're also warned officially. There actually is ongoing process of revieving Your mental ability to be chanop in *any* Maemo channel. Of cours,e due to your constaint threat of kick/ban/whatever pathetic, while You lsoe Your nerves during discussion.11:44
Estel_just for sake of your contributions to being chanop - get a deep breath, go for a walk...11:44
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer0511:45
Estel_and stop this bullshit madness, everyone is free to talk about busybox in context of CSSU.11:45
*** Estel_ was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (don't threat chanops!)11:45
*** BCMM has joined #maemo-ssu11:45
*** Estel_ has joined #maemo-ssu11:45
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, your power abuse speaks poorly about You, and will be reported. I don't expect fast action, but be ensured, that it will be bounced back to You, sooner or later :)11:46
chem|stEstel_: nice that was actually the first time DocScrutinizer05 kicked someone while I was live and the item was no spambot...11:46
*** Estel_ was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (don't threat chanops!)11:46
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: stop it please11:46
DocScrutinizer05ok11:47
*** Estel_ has joined #maemo-ssu11:47
chem|stEstel_: hope you took a deep breath out there11:47
Estel_why so? This conversation is over, won't waste my fingers on this pathetic guy.11:47
DocScrutinizer05just can't stand that bitchingt anymore, and somebody threating me and ignoring authority of chanops nby "stick it where the sun doesn't shine" makes me angry11:48
Estel_not that it matters, really, he is as powerless, as he think he is powerful. Or even more the former :)11:48
chem|stEstel_: DocScrutinizer05 would you both mind to stop trolling now?11:48
chem|stsetup a channel for it and buy t-shirts...11:49
chem|stEstel_: bb-p will be reviewed for sure but by the calcs of now I doubt it being included next week11:49
DocScrutinizer05ooh, cannel named "estel's collected lies performed live"?11:50
Estel_same here, certainly not in next update.11:50
Estel_AFAIK it's being reviewed actually, merlin1991 is jsut on vacation. It's sad that busybox-power thread was filled with lies, that it's not gonna enter cssu, though.11:50
chem|stwe have a bit of work to do next week so better help with that and put everything else aside for now11:50
Estel_of course You know where those FUD originates ;)11:50
DocScrutinizer05counting up on lie counter11:51
Estel_absolutely agree, no need to haste. All people need is reliable information, and there was much mess about busybox-power state re CSSU.11:51
Estel_OTOh, merlin1991 officially started revieving it something like week ago.11:51
chem|stit all stopps at my doorstep, and I prefer shoot'em all and let god sort them out11:51
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer0511:53
*** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-ssu11:53
DocScrutinizer05thanks11:53
DocScrutinizer05forgot11:53
chem|sto711:54
DocScrutinizer05wondering if I should leave for my last workday at STE, or rather have a coffee and 'enjoy' IRC a bit more11:54
chem|stouhuuu last working day, I'd run for it to get it over with11:55
chem|stff still stalling...11:55
DocScrutinizer05hey, your key is borked? :-D11:55
chem|st.net framework assistent11:56
DocScrutinizer05aaah FireFox11:56
chem|stmy e key is borked, do you know where I can get a domesheet from?11:56
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: estel had the nice idea to start a thread on tmo to spank cssu maintainers and give them "motivation"11:57
chem|stand would you mind selling or lending me one of your devices? I do not have any luck with ebay11:57
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: ?11:57
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: or gimme a hand with ebay?11:57
Estel_in fact, no - I though about getting information about state of CSSu maintaining, how it looks.11:57
chem|stEstel_: your intentions are questionable but the outcome is what counts11:58
Estel_it started, when some well known egomaniac linked me to garage page with DocScrutinizer05 mentioned in admin list, suggesting, that it means he is maintainer11:58
Estel_chem|st, I never did it, so I preffer outcome is null ;)11:58
Estel_all after all, I'm sure merlin1991 will clear all this mess upon returning, as some people went too rogue for civilized people's taste.11:59
Estel_...about stating what cssu will and won't be, authoritary, without being a maintainer. Eh, do we really need to continue it here? :)11:59
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: I suggested you should look at that page and grep it for "joerg" and "estel"11:59
DocScrutinizer05nothing more12:00
DocScrutinizer05lie counter counting up12:00
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: sure, I can help with ebay, I can lend you one of my devices as well. Or you ask our chief contributor Estel_ to actually stand up and *do* something about cssu and lend you one of his devices12:01
chem|stEstel_: ?12:02
chem|stsighup child problem 4 days ago... so much about stable12:04
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: yes, I'm sure merlin1991 will politely explain to you the 50th time that you don't understand how cssu hierarchy and merit works, and that there's simply no use in you asking "are you maintainer?" since one thing's for sure: YOU are none12:04
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: o.O12:05
DocScrutinizer05how did you tell?12:05
Estel_chem|st, in -devel releasE?12:05
Estel_seriously?12:05
Estel_if it what makes package not OK for CSSU, it would be empty repo.12:06
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, I shouldn't be even speaking with You about all this egomaniac shit You have just done - but, as before - future will tell, who was right, and I'll be glad to mention it - as history - next time You will authoritary declare what will and what won't be in CSSU. More and more you're doing it, the less reliable source of information you become. People will remember that, when busybox-power will enter CSSU. End of topic, I g12:08
Estel_uess?12:09
DocScrutinizer05blablablablablabla12:09
chem|stEstel_: fyi - https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cssu-stable/12:10
Estel_chem|st, it was mentioned, and he is jsut admin on *that* page.12:11
chem|stEstel_: and DocScrutinizer05 is not self-assigned... he was asked for12:11
Estel_<freemangordon> but to be clear - CSSU maintainers are MohammadAG(CSSU-T), merlin1991(CSSU-S CSSU-T(backup) and chem|st (CSSU-S)12:11
Estel_well, high time to revoke it, due to his mental state, if he doens't learn to behave...12:11
Estel_but you're biased toward him, so no point in continuing this discussion, I suppose?12:12
Estel_I'm just glad, that despite fact, that we don't like each other (me and You, chem|st), we can have a civil talk, without threats of abusing chanop powers, etc12:12
Estel_It speaks good about You.12:13
chem|stEstel_: it is no abuse if you step over the line...12:13
DocScrutinizer05which in my book he just did again12:13
Estel_sorry, "defining" busybox as "ban" topic for certain user, out of ass, is stepping out of the line by chanop, and You know it as well as I.12:13
chem|stsometimes you get me quiet close or get me pondering with a silence spell casted on you12:14
Estel_especially during merit discussion, where we can disagree, but we shouldn't abuse power.12:14
Estel_well, I'm glad that reliability wins over personal "dislike" in you, then :)12:14
Estel_as we don't need to agree, just need to be civil while doing so. It's not popularity contest, after all.12:15
chem|stEstel_: while you are trolling it is ok with me to make it a no go topic for you, bb is reviewed and will be in the future, for now this discussion about bb chanop and you and me having a beer while chatting is over, do you understand?12:15
Estel_well, for me it isn't, and higher authorities will investigate it - along with other evidence of DocScrutinizer05 abuse (which was already considered valid).12:16
DocScrutinizer05lie counter counting up12:16
Estel_in fact, it's You who keep pinging me, while I'm doing other, productive things ;)12:16
DocScrutinizer05lie counter counting up12:17
Estel_so no problem with FINALLY ending this embarassing and msierable topic. After all *some8 people might think that they're center of universe, which we don't want, eh? ;)12:17
* Estel_ going back to work12:17
DocScrutinizer05lie counter counting up, i'm afraid12:17
chem|stwhich part of stop it didn't pass your eys?12:18
chem|styou too DocScrutinizer05! I am fed now12:19
chem|stwhohoo apple looses again vs sammy (japan this time)12:21
keriochem|st: what did you eat?12:28
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: I really get fed up with this guy stating lies since a week ar longer now (starting with his claim that merlin allegedly said bb-p will get included in next T...) and ignoring each sane argument why bb-p is not exactly a candidate for cssu at all. Instead he turns discussion into age old BS where he's defining who got 'authority' in cssu, just to continue with insulting me. If all that doesn't seem to make his arguments fly,12:28
DocScrutinizer05 he reverts to lies again, telling my arguments were made up and whatnot12:28
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: did he answer your request to lend you a N900?12:33
DocScrutinizer05probably not, since he likes to ignore any request to actually *contribute* to cssu, rtaher than just ranting and claiming he knows better than those in charge to decide12:34
DocScrutinizer05meh, cya12:35
DocScrutinizer05actually my suggestion he should simply stop his bitching if he was concerned about motivation of cssu crew was no kidding. I feel like this guy eats way too much time in my life, and that makes me feel bad about cssu work12:36
chem|stthanks12:40
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: /query me re N900 lending12:40
DocScrutinizer05or purchase12:40
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: will do12:41
DocScrutinizer05whatever you prefer12:41
chem|stwill have another try with ebay.de and ebay.us12:41
chem|st2 devices I want one I need... if I get two I can give one to my gf12:41
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: monitor Bluefon24.de offers. They don't have own website it seems, but frequently offer on ebay, under changing names but finally redirecting to bluefon2412:46
DocScrutinizer05their devices are usually good and with warranty12:46
kerio"NOKIA N900 Schwarz" for 189,00€12:48
keriowhat's that supposed to be?12:48
DocScrutinizer05a black N900?12:51
keriowhy is there a "NOKIA N900 Black" for like 50€ more12:52
DocScrutinizer05sounds like Bluefon12:52
keriois that the price for the translation?12:52
kerioyeah, yeah, on bluefon24.de12:52
DocScrutinizer05my two devices were 250EUR iirc, dunno why the price tag differs that much with same reseller12:55
DocScrutinizer05anyway both my devices were in "like new" condition, just missing original packaging and accessories except charger12:55
DocScrutinizer05one came with wrong type of battery though ;-D12:56
keriomy second n900 was really "like new"13:04
merlin1991moin13:06
merlin1991anybody care to point me the right pages in bb-p madness thread?13:06
keriooh hey, you're back!13:06
keriohi!13:06
merlin1991for now :D13:06
merlin1991I'll be back for real on sunday13:07
merlin1991...13:10
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1255699#post125569913:10
merlin1991did people on tmo go full retard?13:14
Estel_merlin1991, it's all about DocScrutinizer05 popping over there and telling them that busybox-power won't be included, because he doesn't like it ;)13:14
Estel_understand it - informational havoc is worst thing for such situations13:15
merlin1991I don't know where people got the idea that bb-p is going to be included13:16
Estel_we have bb-p that *can't* be distributed properly outside cssu (hackish way of binary replacement via postinst script isn't OK), is maintained constantly over the years. includes upstream bug fixes, etc13:16
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and you're doing your best to run havoc against cssu and info we did or did not give13:16
Estel_i.e. fullfill all things needed for CSSU13:16
merlin1991we had the busybox-power maintainer in here some time ago and discussed possible pitfalls if we update the core busybox package with small changes13:16
Estel_wlel, maybe it's because next CSSU announced update of busybox with Pali's fixes for portrait mode?13:16
Estel_merlin1991, sure, and logical question arised - why cssu update core busybox with small changes, instead of using busybox-power upstream release13:17
Estel_as it's upstream busybox, essentially.13:17
DocScrutinizer05no, it's because YOU made that up, another lie you're not getting tired to spread13:17
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991 never said bb-p will go into cssu13:17
merlin1991we didn't *announce* that, and the target was todo exactly what you said, busybox with Palis 1 liner patch13:17
Estel_DocS, can You shut up, please? We're talking here about things that you, apparently, have no idea about, as shown in TMO thread about bb-p13:17
Estel_thanks in advance13:18
Estel_merlin1991, OK,, understood13:18
Estel_so logical question now, again13:18
DocScrutinizer052nd warning about getting rude313:18
Estel_if we can update busybox with one liner path for portrait mode support, why can't we merge busybox-p mainstream bugfixes as well?13:18
Estel_ /ignore DocScrutinizer0513:18
Estel_damn space13:18
keriowow, that's not incredibly passive-aggressive at all13:18
merlin1991Estel_: mainstream update is not a "bugfix" as is13:19
DocScrutinizer05and lie counter counting up, though it's maybe just poor style and not a lie when you state I got no clue13:19
Estel_merlin1991, since maemo's ancient version, mainstream busybox got TONS of bugfixes13:19
merlin1991err I meant upstream13:19
Estel_see busybox changelogs13:19
Estel_not to mention that iDon'ts work actually affected upstream too, which we should be proud about.13:19
*** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo-ssu13:19
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: better ignore Estel_ just like he ignores me and probably meanwhile chem|st as well, since we have discussed that shit with him ad nauseum already13:20
Estel_people are getting really pissed off, by fact that some things are not included into CSSU just because one random guy opposes it in IRc, without merit reasons13:20
merlin1991Estel_: can you point me to a bugfix in upstream vs maemo that we *need* ?13:20
Estel_busybox power seems to fullfill *all* CSSU criteria requiments13:20
*** LaoLang_coo_ has quit IRC13:20
Estel_merlin1991, fix for swapon supporting priorities like it should?13:20
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: no he can't13:20
keriomerlin1991: swapon priorities could be one, but it depends on what "need" means, in the context of CSSU13:20
Estel_properly handling shell history for multi-terminal instances?13:21
kerioi mean, it's not a user thing13:21
Estel_+ question "do we need upstream bugfixes" is quite ridicolous13:21
Estel_do we need portrait mode in cssu?13:21
Estel_do we need any bugfixes at all? well, it works out of the box, so why cssu?13:21
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: a user shell is a user domain issue. No need whatsoever to mess with system stuff to fix anything in it13:21
Estel_I absolutely understand freemangordon's point of view noews - it's extremely frustrating how CSSu is maintained13:22
Estel_it seems to be somewhere in-between bleeding-edge updates (portrait) and LTS only shit13:22
DocScrutinizer05if only he'd get proper consequence and start his own cssu project instead of bitching at us13:22
Estel_ok, after calming down a little:13:23
Estel_merlin1991, the problem is, that process of decidi9ng what wil lgo into cssu and what not is totally misty13:23
Estel_not-transparent13:23
Estel_and both suers and devs can't expect what to do13:23
Estel_results: we have things like freemangordon's (and other devs too, if You talk with them unoficially) doubts if it's worht the effort13:24
Estel_worth*13:24
*** iDont has joined #maemo-ssu13:24
Estel_it's ridicolous, if CSSU would be LTs only - in my udnerstanding, LTS is valid only, if You have "normal" updates in-between. LTS "only" is an oxymoron, you can't have every update LTS.13:24
Estel_iDont, ncie to see You, we're discussing bb-p, actually :)13:24
iDontEstel_, just read the chanlog, though it would be wise to join :P13:25
iDonts/though/thought13:25
Estel_continuing my thoughts about it - it's completely not understandable why bb-p shouldn't be included in CSSu, as it's:13:26
Estel_1. not distributable via extras by normal means...13:26
merlin1991Estel_: it's actually quite easy regarding bb-p iDont (afaik) never pushed for it to end up in cssu so the whole question is m00t13:26
*** MrPingu has joined #maemo-ssu13:26
Estel_( iDont, thanks a lot, it's definitelly good idea :) )13:26
Estel_merlin1991, developer need to push something? wtf?13:26
Estel_with stick, or shovel?13:26
Estel_I would preffer devels actually coding13:26
Estel_and CSSu maintainers deciding, what may be good for cSSU to include13:26
DocScrutinizer05no, evidently he prefers when HE decides on that13:27
merlin1991iDont: I might be wrong here, but I think you never asked for bb-p in cssu?13:27
Estel_merlin1991, CSSu isn't british queen, where people need to ask for audience :( many times users - including me - asked for busybox-power in CSSU.13:28
Estel_isn't that enough?13:28
DocScrutinizer05no13:28
Estel_also, iDont already mentioned that busybox-power way of replacing busybox is hackish, and proper replacement would require inclusion in CSSU13:28
DocScrutinizer05since users also ask for pink pony13:28
merlin1991Estel_: and about "push" we are short on manpower, so we only include things where we have someone who will take care of it in a cssu sense13:28
Estel_DocSanyway, lets all shut up and let iDont speak ;)13:28
*** lizardo has joined #maemo-ssu13:28
merlin1991iDont: did you actually ask for bb-p inclusion to cssu?13:29
iDontmerlin1991: one sec, searching chanlog. I somewhat did, but that's a very long time ago (before pushing busybox-power to extras-devel), and before CSSU-s13:29
Estel_merlin1991, understandable. that's why I mentioned "constantly maintained over the years". I'm sure that iDont would hapilly maintain bb-p in CSSU, if agreed to include.13:29
Estel_iDont, but I'm right that binary replacement is hardly "proper" way of distributing it (done as only one alternative for CSSU, that allow easy distribution)?13:30
Estel_i.e. that it's same type of things, that CSSU already includes, like QT and others?13:30
DocScrutinizer05"mainaining bb-p" means also maintaining all initscripts regarding compatibility to bb-p, in CSSU context13:30
iDontEstel_: yes, touching another package's binaries is not how Debian intented package management13:30
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, stock maemo's initscripts and cssu ones doesn't have problem with busybox-p13:31
DocScrutinizer05and no, it's obviously not same thing, not even same class of thing13:31
iDontaargh, searching chanlog of maemo takes a while :(13:31
Estel_it's absolutely same class of thing.13:31
Estel_iDont, take Your time, no worries13:31
Estel_merlin1991 - short of manpower is actually valid argument to. that's why people interested in CSSU - that can't code - are trying to help as "activists" - by highlighting things that are good candidates for CSSU, collecting opinions, checking if arguments are valid, etc...13:32
Estel_it's absolutely unbearable how DocScrutinizer05 sabotages such efforts, as self-maintained "maintainer" of cssu integrity, but that's different topic13:32
DocScrutinizer05if this guy wouldn't simply answer concerns "X needs attention" with "no, it doesn't, it's OK", his contributions were sometimes a tad usefull13:32
Estel_which I would like to touch later, to not waste iDont time reading about13:33
Estel_(in context of busybox-power, it was about DocScrutinizer05 using "it's properly distributed via extras, which is WRONG and false, totally - but please, lets put it into later time)13:33
DocScrutinizer05pffff13:33
merlin1991Estel_: if you want to deal with stuff later bring them up later, this way it's just a slap into $persons face which they are not *allowed* to react on13:34
iDontmerlin1991, Estel_, see http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-04-29.log.html#t2011-04-29T21:48:13, though there wasn't any follow up, and neither did I push for inclusion13:34
DocScrutinizer05merTHANKS13:34
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: thanks13:34
DocScrutinizer05friggin capslock13:34
merlin1991stop pressing it ;)13:34
*** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC13:35
iDontHowever, personally, I would like to see busybox-power in CSSU, though it's not up to me to decide13:35
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: too close to tab13:35
iDontI also think we can't really separate the "power" part (i.e. extra features etc) from the upstream part (which I would think suits the CSSU) in busybox-power.13:36
DocScrutinizer05iDont: it comes with rootfs penalty, so making it mandatory is depriving those users from their freedom-of-choice who rather keep those 500k in / free than getting power extensions13:36
iDontwhich could pose to be a problem, regarding inclusion guidelines13:36
Estel_merlin1991, if we care about 500k in rootfs, we should switch to thumb immediatelly, in all cSSU13:37
Estel_this argument is pure sophism13:37
iDontDocScrutinizer05, I agree. Personally, I don't think 500K is much, but indeed, there is also something as freedom of choice. Also see what I just typed (re the power part), which causes the substantial increase in binary size13:37
Estel_OTOH, other than CSSU, how can we distribute busybox-poweR?13:37
Estel_as package that replaces binary via script13:38
Estel_thinking like that, we could distribute whole CSSU like that13:38
Estel_in extras.13:38
Estel_iDont, agree?13:38
Estel_merlin1991, I hope You see the point.13:38
DocScrutinizer05iDont: and, as we already discussed last time we chatted here, busybox is a mission-critical component that should see particularly careful and conservative patches, which need particularly close review and tests13:38
Estel_only one argument against busybox-power is 500kb (in fact, less than that) rootfs space, and "compatibility with 3rd party scripts that actually relies on bugs" (sic!), courtesy of DocScrutinizer0513:38
Estel_which is pure sophism.13:39
iDontEstel_, I agree, but we need to weigh the (dis)advantages of busybox-power vs. messy replacement in postinst13:39
merlin1991iDont: actually bb-power could be done in cssu in the planned replacement system, it would conflict with regular busybox and replace it but would be a user choice13:39
Estel_iDont, absolutely correct. But, what disadvantages we have here? where busybox-power presents any regressions?13:39
keriomerlin1991: provide/conflict doesn't handle dependencies for versions correctly, iirc13:40
kerioso you'd have to add busybox | busybox-power to the metapackage and to the other stuff, for instance13:40
iDontmerlin1991, but then bb-power would need to depend on CSSU? Also see: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1001182&postcount=1213:40
kerioiDont: well, not really13:41
keriobut it would break the non-cssu metapackages, and i doubt they'll let you put a package with "Conflicts: busybox" in extras13:41
DocScrutinizer05lie counter counting up, I never said "3rd party scripts" (what a bullshit in fact), it's about genuine initscripts, which this guy again either ignores or is too dull to grok13:41
merlin1991iDont: well basically it's a question of where you want to see busybox-power, if you want it on *every* device we obviously can't do it via cssu it has to stay in extras then, if you'd like it to be included in cssu we'd probably go with a conflicts: busybox scheme which works fine because the busybox-power package would be in the cssu repo, not in extras13:43
iDontmerlin1991, when I started busybox-power, I could either make it only available to CSSU users via a clean way (as you describe), or to everyone via binary replacement. I chose the latter, since CSSU was very new then13:46
iDontI'm all for freedom-of-choice, and don't want to force busybox-power on anyone just for the sake of it being widely used13:46
iDontor something like that13:46
iDontSe basically we need to make the same descision regarding distribution again13:47
merlin1991well we could preserve the freedom of choice even within cssu13:47
iDontDo you have any figures regarding how widely CSSU is deployed?13:47
merlin1991sadly not13:48
kerioiDont: well, people interested in unixy stuff won't have problems with it, i hope13:49
iDontHmm, I'm thinking all possibilities regarding packaging & distribution over, bear with me please13:51
merlin1991iDont: busybox power is your project, we're not going to suddenly include it over your head into cssu because $user wants it there, on the other hand if you wish to see it there we'll use a way to keep freedom of choice13:51
merlin1991and also you have all the time in the world to decide I want this in cssu :)13:52
chem|stcssu-extras?13:53
kerioyou wouldn't even need a separate repo, actually13:54
merlin1991chem|st: yep, it's going to arrive (at some point)13:54
chem|stmerlin1991: that is what I meant by "give the user a choice and have cssu remain cssu and not a fancy-power-island"13:56
keriojust put busybox-power in the repos, but make it Provide and Conflict busybox13:56
kerioalthough maybe the metapackage will get confused if you do so? \_o_/13:56
iDontkerio, IIRC that would break Nokia's metapackage13:56
keriobut not the CSSU one, if we change it13:56
iDontyes, but then we would need a split package, i.e. busybox-power and busybox-power-cssu, which I would like to avoid13:57
kerioi don't know if that would break things wrt the cssu installation though13:57
iDontkerio, that's busybox-power's resposibility (to not break anything) ;)13:58
chem|stwe could have cssu-meta call for busybox >= cssu version and you just need to make sure to have your powerversion higher13:58
merlin1991iDont: cssu removes the nokia metapackage, so in case you choose to push it into cssu you don't have to worry about that part anymore13:58
iDontmerli1991, but that's the whole issue: that would exclude non-cssu users13:59
keriochem|st: hm, how does Provides work with stuff like that?13:59
merlin1991chem|st: we could simply do cssu-meta depends busyboy >= cssusomething | busybox-power >= somehting13:59
keriodoes it take the version of the package with the provision?13:59
chem|stiDont: nope you still can provide it as a bin-replacement for non-cssu13:59
merlin1991provides is fsckd13:59
chem|stmerlin1991: I do not want -power in cssu14:00
merlin1991?14:00
keriochem|st: wait, why? not even as a reference to a cssu-extras project?14:00
chem|stmerlin1991: I want to provide the option to have -power in cssu just installed without dirty hacking14:00
iDontchem|st, I don't see how that's possible without a separate busybox package (one that does binary replacement for non-cssu, and one that does a clean install to /bin/busybox, for CSSU)14:00
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu14:00
chem|stthe one in cssu needs to have a higher index14:01
iDontthat might actually work, in the same way as the -thumb version does now14:02
*** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-ssu14:02
iDontI haven't thought about that at all14:02
chem|sthmm well yes you need two differnt install scripts...14:02
iDontthat's not an issue for me, as long as the user only sees one package14:02
chem|stuh that reminds me of outdated apt right14:02
chem|stif they have cssu installed they see the cssu package as the version is higher than in extras14:03
kerionow, upgrading from the old-style to the new-style...14:03
chem|stkerio: nope old style stays14:03
keriothat could be kinda painful14:04
iDontmerlin1991, do you have any ETA on this cssu-extras repository?14:04
keriochem|st: yeah but if and when we add the good-form busybox-power with the same name, people with the old-style busybox-power will be prompted to upgrade14:04
kerioand the new package will conflict with busybox14:04
MrPinguMaybe I am too simple why not pushing busybox with CSSU? I mean bbp is just a upstreamed busybox right?14:04
merlin1991iDont: it's not a repository but lives within the cssu repo, and nope no eta14:04
kerioMrPingu: oh you14:04
iDontmerlin1991, doh, of course14:05
MrPinguKerio: Hi :)14:05
chem|stnope, as long as the cssu version of bb and bb-p are higher than bb-nokia bb-p14:05
kerioiDont: well, for instance busybox-power is already a package in the community-thumb repository14:05
iDontkerio, yes :). I completely forgot about the same mechanism for CSSU14:05
chem|stkerio: that does not harm does it?14:05
keriochem|st: nope, it's completely unrelated14:05
keriobut it *can* be unrelated, it's just the same as extras14:05
chem|stkerio: they get prompted for an upgrade that does only provide the right package structure14:06
kerioif eventually we decide to make it conflict with busybox, stuff could break wrt metapackage14:06
iDontkerio, re upgrading from old busybox-power to cssu busybox-power: busybox-power uninstalls cleanly, so that won't pose to be an issue ;)14:06
kerioiDont: yeah but it's uninstalled together with busybox (nokia)14:06
keriomeh, i suppose that it would work14:06
chem|stkerio: the cssu version will conflict... the extras version not14:07
chem|stiDont: would that be suitable for you?14:07
keriobb-p uninstalls, puts old /bin/busybox back, then bb uninstalls, then bb-p new is installed14:07
iDontchem|st, most certainly :)14:08
iDontI am and always was for freedom-of-choice. I just didn't see a alternative to inclusion in CSSU until now14:08
chem|stkerio: bb-p from extras gets a break for cssu installer...14:08
iDontan alternative*14:08
chem|stand I sidenote14:09
DocScrutinizer05btw just for a tiny bit of self-glorification (to counteract this constant "Doc's not contributing" BS): it's been me who suggested/pushed cssu-s, it's been me who 'invented' optional packages in CSSU14:09
keriochem|st: a break?14:09
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: we know... captain obviouse ;)14:10
keriosorry, i can't parse what you just wrote14:10
chem|stkerio: sry14:10
DocScrutinizer05not all know that,  obviously14:10
keriochem|st: oh, you mean that it would be uninstalled by community-ssu-installer?14:10
DocScrutinizer05there's at least one guy who's constantly insulting me on the basis he never realized it14:10
chem|stkerio: cssu installer will install new package of bb, then there will be an upgrade available for bb-p14:11
chem|stuh that will brake14:11
chem|stiDont: uninstall overwrites bb right14:11
chem|stagain14:11
keriochem|st: yeah but it gets upgraded right afterwards14:12
kerioso it's no big deal14:12
iDontchem|st, yes. Everything is restored to pre-bbpower situation14:12
keriobesides, uninstall only changes /bin/busybox if it matches the checksum14:12
kerioif it's been changed, it's left alone14:12
chem|stbut there is no pre bb-p situatiuon after installing cssu14:12
chem|stah ok14:13
chem|stgood14:13
merlin1991chem|st: you also have to think of the update where we introduce anything bb-p realted14:13
merlin1991cssu is "installed" at that point so you do have a situations of bb-p after installing cssu14:13
chem|stmerlin1991: yes I know14:14
chem|stmerlin1991: one at a time14:14
iDontDocScrutinizer05, well, personally I agree with Estel_. I do think busybox-power would be a good fit for the CSSU. The main counter argument is theoretical breakage, which hasn't been experienced during busybox-power's lifetime. However, I do think that an optional package is always preffered. I just didn't see any way to achieve the latter until now :)14:14
chem|stmerlin1991: I was thinking of new installation of cssu first - then upgrading14:14
iDontpreferred*14:14
iDontAnyway, we got ourselves a solution now, so we can leave this discussion behind :)14:15
Estel_iDont, that's why I was "advocating" busybox-power for CSSU, considering that devs have better thing to do than "lobbying", even for good case.14:15
chem|stthe same thing will happen to cameraUI and other shit14:15
iDontEstel_, appreciated, though probably not by all ;p14:16
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: those ussd stuff patches you were talking about14:16
chem|st*# things14:16
kerioand the fukken cbsms widged14:16
MrPinguI didn't understand that :P I thought: CSSU includes upstreamed busybox -> Done14:17
chem|stkerio: +114:17
merlin1991iDont: I'm not sure which solution you mean :D14:17
Estel_it's ridicolous, that package need to be "advocated" toget into cssu, BTW, but that's different thing14:17
Estel_MrPingu - busybox-power is upstream busybox14:17
Estel_problem is that some people in CSSU seems to have philosophical problems about "do we need updates at all?"14:18
MrPinguEstel_: I am talking about buxybox including in CSSU14:18
iDontmerlin1991, including a busybox-power variant in CSSU as optional package, in contrast to a completely separate busybox-power-cssu package14:18
Estel_OTOh, people like DocScrutinizer05 are trying to put CSSU into stagnated, LTS-only (oxymoron!) thing14:18
Estel_MrPingu, same here ;)14:18
chem|stEstel_: when you keep talking BS like this you will loose your space in this channel...14:18
MrPinguEstel_: My thoughts were,14:19
DocScrutinizer05no, it's Estel_ who tries to transform cssu into bleeding-edge for the packages *he* prefers14:19
MrPinguEstel_: Why was that oxymoron part needed, really?14:19
Estel_merlin1991, why the hell some things - like portrait support - enter cssu without problems, and some other - essential, clean, and well tested, not distributable via "normal" extras-means - just like busybox-power -have so much trouble doing so?>14:19
Estel_MrPingu, was needed, as there is no such thing as LTS only14:19
Estel_LTS by definition is release *between* normal releases14:19
Estel_there is no such thing as LTS only, but DocScrutinizer05 openyl advocated CSSU becoming one. thats why it's oxymoron.14:19
Estel_LTS only means "stagnation", just with prettier name. LTS, by definition, means to be stable "anchor" between more experimental features. Later, those features enter another LTS.14:20
Estel_aka long-term-support14:20
chem|stEstel_: enough!14:20
MrPinguEstel_: IMO it wasn't neeeded to, I mean the message is clear even without oxymoron...14:20
Estel_why someone want project to become LTs-only is beyond me14:20
merlin1991Estel_: that's easy to answer, because it was people inside cssu doing portrait14:20
Estel_MrPingu, not for everyone, as it seems :P14:20
MrPinguEstel_: It only makes people angry on you...14:21
Estel_thats why freemangordon is thinking if CSSU is worth effort at all, IMO14:21
Estel_merlin1991, so put iDont "inside" CSSU as busybox-power maintainer14:21
Estel_problem solved14:21
Estel_after all, no one in CSSU is maintaining everything14:21
Estel_and IIRC, iDont said aloready dozens of times, that he would hapilly maintain busybox-power for CSSU14:21
chem|stEstel_: we just made clear how it is going to happen now you come and want it in another way14:22
DocScrutinizer05[2012-08-31 13:08:33] <iDont> I am and always was for freedom-of-choice. I just didn't see a alternative to inclusion in CSSU until now14:22
Estel_if there is viable alternative to including busybox-power in CSSU, that don't require dirty hacks like binary replacement in posinst, I'm all for it.14:22
MrPinguAnway what I wanted to say (don't shoot me, just my thoughts):14:22
Estel_it's CSSU loss, after all14:22
*** M13 has quit IRC14:23
DocScrutinizer05stop suffering *OUR* headaches!14:23
Estel_if only for the reason, that people like me won't need to be frustrated by how CSSU is maintained in long-term :P14:23
MrPinguJust put busybox with higher version number in CSSU repo and upgrade seems fine, doesn't it?14:23
iDontMrPingu, yes, that's what we're going to do14:23
MrPinguOfcourse that doesn't give users a choice14:23
chem|stEstel_: topic is over! bb-p will find its place in cssu-extras... how that is going to happen is not on your call14:23
*** andre__ has joined #maemo-ssu14:23
*** andre__ has joined #maemo-ssu14:23
iDontMrPingu, CSSU will depend on either busybox or busybox-power, so that would give the user freedom of coise14:24
Estel_chem|st, fine, so go away now and let us talk :)14:24
Estel_as we're not even sure if cssu-extras will *ever* happen.14:24
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: that's again a ban'able insult14:24
DocScrutinizer05in my book14:24
MrPinguEstel_: That go away part wasn't needed14:24
MrPinguEstel_: Don't get angry on me but you say mean things that aren't needed to get the message past14:25
Estel_DocScrutinizer05, so ban me, and stop boring, ok? I'm really tired of Your pathetic, childish behavior with all those "Imma powerful chanop, phe4r me!" idiotic threats. I swear, that it's last time I reffer to it in any way, as it's not even worth lifting single finger.14:25
DocScrutinizer05this guy is trolling every single day for last weeks err months, and using up our time we better spent discussing real stuff14:25
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o merlin199114:26
*** Estel_ was kicked by merlin1991 (Der Kindergarten ist woanders!)14:26
*** arcean_ has joined #maemo-ssu14:26
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o merlin199114:26
keriowoanders?14:26
ivgalvezbadabum14:26
chem|stanother place14:26
merlin1991auto kick msg of quassel14:26
MrPinguwoanders -> Somewhere else ;)14:26
keriomeh, it fits14:26
iDontmerlin1991, to wrap things up on a high level: 1) CSSU metapackage will depend on either busybox or busybox-power 2) I'll create a new , separate busybox-power package for CSSU repo *the way it should have been (i.e. no dirty tricks)* 3) regular busybox-power will remain in maemo's extras for non-cssu users14:27
MrPinguiDont: Let's say I have install CSSU-Testing will that mean I get automatically an updated busybox?14:27
iDontmerlin1991, ack?14:27
ivgalveziDont that sounds great14:28
merlin1991iDont: ack, but for sake of always having proper busybox-power in cssu we have to use a slightly higher verions in cssu ie +proper or whatever :)14:28
kerioMrPingu: yes-ish - on the next busybox-power upgrade you'll be prompted (by apt?) to uninstall busybox due to a conflict14:28
*** arcean has quit IRC14:28
merlin1991MrPingu: no won't14:28
keriomerlin1991: hm, isn't + for stuff outside of the version number?14:28
kerioMrPingu: that is, if you have busybox-power already14:29
iDontMrPingu, yes, the end-user won't notice any difference versus the old situation ;)14:29
chem|stkerio: no14:29
MrPinguYou guys are confusing me14:30
chem|stkerio: well yes... (need to read all lines...)14:30
iDontmerlin1991, yes, I'll make sure that the cssu variant will have a modified version string14:30
chem|stMrPingu: you won't get bb-p by default on cssu14:30
*** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo-ssu14:30
MrPinguI see14:30
kerioiDont: hm, this thing with the names is full of possible pitfalls14:31
chem|stif you had bb-p installed you will be prompted for an upgrade14:31
iDontkerio, what are your concerns?14:31
keriobb-p-extras and bb-p-cssu are upgraded together, but updating from one of the repos fails14:32
kerioand a cssu user ends up with the extras version for a bit14:32
kerioit's not fatal by any means, mind you14:32
keriobut it's boring14:32
chem|stkerio: ?14:32
keriochem|st: extras will have a package called busybox-power too14:32
iDontkerio, there will be only one busybox-power package, but there will be two seperate versions of it. The CSSU version will have higher priority over the regular package for non cssu users14:32
iDontYou can't have non-cssu version and cssu version installed at the same time14:33
kerioiDont: yeah but you have to make sure that cssu users' apts will be constantly aware of that14:33
chem|stkerio: extras-testing has one extras-devel has one so what?14:33
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC14:33
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu14:34
*** arcean_ has quit IRC14:34
chem|stkerio: apt-get update?14:34
chem|stI don't get your concern it does not matter if bbp from extras is installed14:34
DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's what merlin1991's pending work about cssu-ham and optional pkgs is all about14:34
chem|stif cssu is installed there is the cssu repo with a newer version that will uninstall the hacky one and install a proper bb replacement14:35
iDontkerio, think of the -thumb situation. Didn't bb-power's thumb version got installed as an upgrade over the non-thumb version a few days ago, even though it was the same version (minus the -thumb part)?14:36
iDontCSSU busybox-power > extras busybox-power14:36
kerioiDont: well, that's a good example actually14:37
kerioyou released an update a few days ago, right?14:37
iDontYes14:37
keriofreemangordon didn't immediately release that one too14:37
kerioand my apt prompted me to install the one from extras-devel14:37
kerioi mean, it's not a big deal14:37
keriobut it can happen if the versions aren't in sync14:37
kerio(then, when he released the same update too, it prompted me to upgrade to *that* version - the same, but with -thumb0)14:38
iDontkerio, that's a very good point indeed. We'll have to make sure CSSU version get's updated _before_ extras' version14:38
iDontluckily, that's entirely in our control :)14:38
kerioheh, it's the same server, too14:39
*** MrPingu has quit IRC15:02
freemangordonwell, what worries me, is the time frame in which "cssu-extras" will be available15:33
freemangordontalking started few months ago, but I am not aware of any progress15:34
freemangordonmerlin1991: so the question about estimated time is pretty reasonable, it does not make sense iDont to write a pile of install scripts if we expect cssu-extras by june 2013 :P15:36
freemangordonmerlin1991, chem|st: Why obexd and stuff are allowed to enter CSSU(not cssu-extras), but busybox is not?15:37
iDontfreemangordon, I thought busybox-power would live in relevant cssu repositories, just like busybox-power lives in cssu-thumb?15:37
iDont<merlin1991> iDont: it's not a repository but lives within the cssu repo, and nope no eta15:38
freemangordoniDont: we need updated HAM in order it to work as planned, otherwise you (or me) should use apt-get to install15:38
freemangordonbut CSSU's official installer is HAM, not apt-get ;)15:39
keriofreemangordon: why?15:39
keriobusybox-power would just be a package15:39
*** merlin1991 has left #maemo-ssu15:39
kerioand it's already installable via HAM15:39
*** merlin1991 has joined #maemo-ssu15:40
merlin1991ffs15:40
iDontheh15:40
freemangordonmerlin1991: hi15:40
keriomerlin1991: chat comfortably! anywhere!15:40
iDont:-D15:40
merlin1991kerio: it would use conflict: something which in ham only throws the use pc-suite to update error15:40
keriooic15:40
kerio...well, that would've been nicer to know earlier :/15:40
keriomeh, i'm perfectly fine with requiring people to install busybox-power with apt15:41
kerioi mean, it's a fucking shell anyway15:41
freemangordonkerio: that is not how it should be15:41
keriowhy not? plenty of packages don't even appear in HAM anyway15:42
kerioand i really don't see another way15:42
iDontkerio, I'm not, my priorities include not to exclude anyone from using it. Although I prefer apt-get > HAM as well15:42
kerioapart from using a separate installer15:42
*** MrPingu has joined #maemo-ssu15:42
freemangordonkerio: because you (and me) have no clue what is the user base15:42
freemangordon;)15:42
keriofreemangordon: one could argue that that behaviour in HAM is a bug15:42
keriobecause what the fuck were they thinking, really15:43
kerio:s15:43
kerioeven **cydia** handles those more gracefully15:43
freemangordonirrelevan, we can't tell CSSU users to use apt-get15:43
freemangordonirrelevant even15:43
MrPinguiDont: Did you manage to fix that bug in bb-p hxka pointed out?15:45
* freemangordon is afk for a cigarette15:45
iDontMrPingu, yes, but I need to test my patch more extensively15:46
MrPinguGoed :)15:47
iDontOnly problem is, that signal handling is a touchy area in shells, and I haven't got any real experience in that area. So therefore the extensive tests (although the patch is relatively small)15:48
MrPinguI see :)15:49
iDontfreemangordon, merlin1991, if I could get any follow up on (the ETA of) cssu-extras, that would be great. No rush though, as the current way of distributing busybox-power does the job fine, dirty or not15:52
merlin1991iDont: I'll let you know as soon as I have anything15:53
freemangordonchem|st, merlin1991: I'll rephrase my question - according to what criteria upstream versions of obexd, curl, dosfstools, etc., etc., are good for CSSU, bu upstream version of busybox is not?15:53
merlin1991somebody there who's doing the job :D15:54
merlin1991till now I didn't see much intention from iDont to get busybox into cssu15:54
merlin1991ah you mean why still doing it optional?15:55
freemangordoniDont: correct?15:55
keriofreemangordon: well, bb-p *adds* a lot of stuff15:55
freemangordonkerio: curl too15:55
freemangordonNFC for obexd, but almost sure it adds lots of stuff too15:55
iDontwell, personally I do like to see busybox-power in CSSU. However, I think optional installation is better regarding freedom of choice. Especially since inclusion seems to be so highly controversial15:56
freemangordonyeah, controversial :D15:56
freemangordonmerlin1991: yes, that was my point.15:57
keriooh right, obexd adds a bunch of stuff wrt car integration, right?15:57
freemangordonand curl adds only luf knows what :)15:57
merlin1991well curl / obexd are not that important core system component though15:58
freemangordoncurl no core component? try to remove it :P15:58
merlin1991true though that the why and how is hard to argue15:58
MrPinguActually I agree with freemangordon, if bb-p is good why not include it the simple way?15:59
freemangordonmerlin1991: we cannot act based on personal preferences though16:00
merlin1991afk, lunch16:00
kerioMrPingu: because there's no reason to16:01
keriomuch like cbsms-widget16:01
freemangordonenjoy your meal, gather some power and come back :P16:01
kerioalthough that's a bit different, because it's FUCKING BROKEN AS HELL16:01
MrPingubut cbsms has been included...16:01
keriowhile busybox-power has no known regressions, apart from that minor one16:01
kerioMrPingu: in testing16:01
kerioand it'll be removed once cssu finds a process to include optional packages16:01
freemangordonkerio: and what is the reason for obexd and curl then?16:01
keriofreemangordon: beats me16:01
MrPinguYeah but I guess we are always talking about testing? I mean it won't go directly to stable without testing ;)16:02
MrPingufreemangordon: completed my argumentation ;)16:03
freemangordonsee, we should apply the same criteria for all of the packages, fuzzy evaluations like "core system component" are meaningless16:03
freemangordonbut i'd rather wait merlin1991 back16:03
keriofreemangordon: but busybox-power has "power" in its name!16:04
freemangordoniDont: I just need straight answer if you want upstream busybox in CSSU or not, i.e. will you maintain it. Forget about freedom of choice for a while :P16:05
freemangordonkerio: well, we'll change it to busybox-weakness if needed :P16:06
chem|stfreemangordon: what are you arguing?16:07
freemangordonchem|st: I am trying to find what is the criteria for package inclusion in CSSU, see may question above16:07
chem|stfreemangordon: if you want something in cssu that needs bbp then depend on it!16:07
iDontIf CSSU's scope clearly states that upstream components are a valid reason for inclusion in CSSU, then yes, because I'll have a valid argument for inclusion then.16:08
iDont^freemangordon16:08
freemangordonchem|st: what in CSSU depends on obexd and curl?16:08
freemangordon(upstream versions)16:08
chem|stdoes it add mission critical things? nope16:08
chem|stfreemangordon: libcurl?! facebooklogin16:09
freemangordonchem|st: yes, but why upstream?16:09
chem|stfreemangordon: cause that was the one working?!16:10
iDontBut even if upstream versions would be a valid reason, what about the -power part in busybox-power? Will that part be preserved (e.g. the extra features vs. stock BusyBox)? I prefer not create a *new* busybox-power if upstream busybox would be included in CSSU, but without power features16:10
chem|stiirc it was looking for a version that has the patch and is working...16:10
freemangordonwrong, what is in CSSU is -26, the one we tried was 2516:10
freemangordon(iirc)16:10
freemangordonand what about obexd? what is ther system critical functionality it adds?16:11
chem|stwhoohou 25-26 is what sorry I am so bad in math "1"?16:11
merlin1991freemangordon: the problem with busybox-power is what iDont said, which modules do we compile if we include upstream code?16:11
chem|stfreemangordon: you start like estel now?!16:12
merlin1991updated obexd has better support for car kits, simple as that16:12
freemangordonchem|st: curl (7.26.0-1maemo1+0cssu1) unstable; urgency=high16:12
merlin1991regarding curl, yeah that's vague16:12
freemangordonchem|st: naah, dont do that16:12
chem|stfreemangordon: ;)16:12
merlin1991but usually upstream should be ok, only in case of ie busybox we have the problem of the all in one which yields the question which parts do we really want?16:13
chem|stfreemangordon: not the upstream fact is slowing the progress... the bare fact that it is compiled with more options16:13
freemangordonmerlin1991: well, i might be wrong (or simply misunderstood something), but it was told that busybox-power is actually upstream busybox16:13
kerio"screw you guys, i'll start my own cssu! with busybox and hookers! in fact, forget cssu and busybox!"16:14
freemangordonmerlin1991: we had the same for curl iirc16:14
keriofreemangordon: busybox is heavily configurable at compile-time16:14
kerioto include or exclude modules16:14
merlin1991+ nokia patches, yeah but only that busybox has a basillion switches for ./configure16:14
freemangordonkerio: ^^^16:14
chem|stfreemangordon: nope bbp is upstream + lots of functions activated16:14
freemangordonchem|st: aah, ok, my bad then16:14
freemangordonthen we should remove obexd too16:15
merlin1991ie less is disabled in stock busybox16:15
freemangordonas obexd adds carkti supprt, which does not exists in stock obexd16:15
merlin1991well it is there, somehow, mostly broken16:16
chem|stfreemangordon: stop trolling!16:16
merlin1991it even works with *some* car kits16:16
freemangordonchem|st: what?16:16
chem|st"remove this and that" it is in there now live with it16:16
merlin1991guys can we get back to ground zero?16:17
chem|stplease16:17
chem|stmerlin1991: monday evening ok with you?16:17
freemangordonwell, I could ban myself easily, no need someone to do it16:17
chem|stmerlin1991: I will be off all weekend16:18
*** freemangordon has left #maemo-ssu16:18
merlin1991jesus, has everyone gone mental today?16:18
chem|styes16:18
merlin1991chem|st: should be ok16:18
iDontfreemangordon, if you're interested, check the OP of busybox-power's thread at TMO. It lists all new applets (tiny implementations of various tools) it introduces vs. the stock busybox package. Besides new applets, it also extends functionality of existing applets (e.g. Ctrl-R reverse history search in shell, swapon with priorities support, and _lots_ more)16:19
kerioiDont: he left16:20
iDontkerio, woops, missed that16:20
keriohe quit irc :s16:20
iDontbrb16:20
merlin1991just for the record I was actually more talking to chem|st regarding gorund zero16:20
kerioground zero?16:21
chem|st?16:21
merlin1991calm state, common ground, no insulting madness, whatever you wanna call it16:21
kerioweed land16:22
kerio:D16:22
*** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC16:23
*** freemangordon has joined #maemo-ssu16:50
freemangordonmerlin1991: just for the record - I did not quit because your "ground zero" :)16:51
chem|stfreemangordon: I'm sorry, estel gave me a hard time today...16:52
*** arcean has quit IRC16:52
*** arcean_ has joined #maemo-ssu16:52
freemangordonchem|st: np, I am calm, just keep it in mind I am not Estel ;)16:53
chem|stfreemangordon: just stop barking about why things ended up being in cssu, they are there now, so it be16:53
chem|stI am pretty sure everything needed will get to cssu16:54
MrPinguchem|st: I believe it's more  like: why are these CSSU why BB-p can't be?16:54
chem|stfreedom of choice might be a pain in the ass in the ned16:54
chem|stend16:54
freemangordonchem|st: my point was regarding bb inclusion, I was trying to make an argument, that acording to the criteria applied to those packages, bb should be included too16:54
freemangordonI am the last one to ask for package to be removed from CSSU :)16:55
chem|stfreemangordon: we talked that through now... bb will get upgraded and shipped with but bb-power will be optional iirc16:56
kerioi am the first! remove cbsms!16:56
chem|stkerio: that brought the whole story of cssu-extras to my attention16:56
freemangordonchem|st: bb will get upgraded to upstream and compiled with the same options as stock? I am absolutely ok if that is the case.16:57
chem|stso if there will be something rolling into cssu which needs bb-power it is there without hacky binery overwriting16:57
iDontchem|st, I actually missed the part that busybox will get upgraded and shipped16:57
freemangordonyep, me too :)16:58
MrPinguAnd this makes 316:58
chem|stah ok no that was my idea behind it, strap out the power16:58
freemangordonI knew it is because of the -power thing :D16:58
chem|stupstream is ok if it is working fine but keep the bloat to a minimum16:58
chem|stit is not the name^^16:59
freemangordoni know :)16:59
chem|st;)16:59
chem|stbut what is the difference between upstream and current?16:59
chem|stfirst of all, would it be smaller?17:00
chem|stfaster?17:00
freemangordoncurrent == stock?17:00
chem|stI love the "never change a running system"17:00
MrPinguhttp://www.busybox.net/17:00
MrPinguscroll down till you see v1.10 :P17:01
freemangordonchem|st: don't know if you are aware, but libcurl in CSSU is around 280k bigger than stock17:01
freemangordonwhich about 100% increase17:01
chem|stI know17:03
freemangordon(iirc)17:03
chem|stok some critical stuff I just see by scrolling the first 5 versions17:03
chem|stit is growing bigger17:04
chem|stiDont: would you mind to provide two versions?17:04
freemangordoniDont: I will check on the thread what are the additional modules included (i.e. -power stuff :) )17:04
MrPinguchem|st: that list will become big :P17:05
keriofreemangordon: btw, the thumbified busybox-power is just 300k bigger than the stock arm busybox :D17:05
chem|stwell np I guess it is the same source but different compiler flags + different version strings..17:05
iDontchem|st, I don't mind, but is there any real interest in an updated BusyBox shell without power features? AFAIK most busybox-power users install busybox-power for its power features17:06
chem|stiDont: I am speaking of a cssu without power version17:07
chem|stnevermind17:07
freemangordonchem|st: well, if it does not bring harm, why not enable them?17:07
MrPingufreemangordon: you were faster17:07
chem|stspace?17:08
keriofreemangordon: because mo money mo problems17:08
chem|stand less features means less bugs17:08
iDontThere used to be two busybox-power versions: one with Nokia's config, and one with an enhanced config. The first was dropped because of a lack of interest. However, this was in mid-2011.17:08
MrPinguSome things like colored ls, is nice to have enabled in CSSU version too ver example17:08
freemangordonchem|st: yeah, I see the rationale, that is why I said i will check the additional modules17:09
chem|st+117:09
freemangordonchem|st: though 500k is not that much.17:10
chem|stthe smaller the better, if we get some stuff rolling like "enhancements" people are used to but do not bloat it fine17:10
merlin1991freemangordon: imo we should check what changes libcurl has17:10
freemangordoniDont: any chance to split it to /root /opt? or it is a single binary?17:10
chem|stfreemangordon: take 10 programs that way and you have 5000k17:10
merlin1991because as you said the size increase is huge17:10
keriochem|st: so? 5mb is not a lot either :)17:11
freemangordonmerlin1991: I asked luf, and iirc he explained there are dependecnies17:11
iDontfreemangordon, single binary at the moment17:11
chem|stkerio: on my 3TB / at home yes...17:11
keriochem|st: i have like 40mb free on /17:11
freemangordoniDont: any chance to split it?17:11
kerioand that's a very strict estimate17:11
iDontfreemangordon, that's most certainly possible17:11
kerio(ubifs expands as needed, i only have 228mb used or something)17:11
MrPinguI used to have 70mb free on /17:11
chem|stkerio: and you need how much to do an upgrade?17:12
keriobeats me17:12
kerioincremental upgrades? not much17:12
kerio:D17:12
kerioi mean, the only big thing that i installed on / is gcc+libc6-dev+dependencies17:12
chem|stso now you have 30MB left and we have a look at some other stuff not being /optificationable17:13
freemangordoniDont: I think if it is possible to split it in such a way, that in rootfs to be the only things really needed for boot and the rest to stay in /opt, that would make everyone happy17:13
freemangordonchem|st: agree?17:13
chem|stfreemangordon: that will brake startup stuff17:13
freemangordonchem|st: read again :P17:13
freemangordon(and excuse my english)17:14
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: busybox needs to stay in rootfs, needed during early boot. That's the main 8though not only) reason we don't want to make bb-p mandatory17:14
chem|stfreemangordon: some waky people might like to do waky stuff while booting that it is -power!17:14
iDontfreemangordon, yes, then we'll have to include two config files in the packaging and compile two separate binaries, I suppose17:14
chem|stwe build it twice one is cssu (stock config) one is cssu-power17:15
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: and whole point of busybox is it's a monolithic binary17:15
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: ++17:15
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yes, I know, I am trying to find a way to make everyone happy :)17:16
DocScrutinizer05we all do ;-D17:16
chem|sthave a nice weekend!17:16
freemangordonchem|st: bb17:16
DocScrutinizer05well, you too chem|st17:16
* chem|st hits the road17:16
*** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-ssu17:16
* DocScrutinizer05 celebrates vacancy17:16
DocScrutinizer05duck and cover, now I got 24/7 time for maemo ;-P17:17
keriowell, the whole point of busybox is also not to execute a bunch of processes in shell scripts17:17
DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's secondary at best17:17
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: the point was - we could have only one package, which includes two binaries, one of them stays in rootfs (with the essentials needed for boot), the second lives in /opt17:18
DocScrutinizer05the obvious main rationale for busybox been that Nokia tried to conserve as much space in rootfs as possible17:18
kerioand we should try to honour that!17:18
kerioby enabling thumb binaries!17:18
* kerio flees17:18
freemangordonhehe17:18
ivgalvezjuas17:19
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: you (maintainer of bb) could turn it into anything renamed from original busybox name, and keep it in /opt like any other *suer* shell17:19
DocScrutinizer05*user*17:19
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i thought the rationale for busybox was that it was used in diablo and then hysterical raisins and then why bother changing17:19
keriodiablo and before, i mean17:19
DocScrutinizer05maybe that too :-P17:20
* DocScrutinizer05 loves hysterical raisins17:20
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: there was a link with changes between stock version and upstream, see chem|st's comment on it:17:21
freemangordon17:02 <chem|st> ok some critical stuff I just see by scrolling the first 5 versions17:21
freemangordon<chem|st> it is growing bigger17:21
keriooh lol17:21
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: so lets end that, ok? :)17:22
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: I'd not deny benefit of getting bugfixes to busybox, esp if they are system critical. But I question sane rationale behind including power extensions17:22
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: chem|st proposed 2 packages, I am trying to reduce that to 117:22
DocScrutinizer05good17:23
freemangordonwithout using precious rootfs space17:23
DocScrutinizer05the less the better, it needs very close review since busybox is mission critical17:23
freemangordonbut of course17:23
DocScrutinizer05isn't it strange how even freemangordon and me could agree on something easily, as long as estel isn't bitching on stuff he doesn't completely understand17:24
kerioiDont: did you *disable* something from the upstream busybox?17:25
freemangordoniDont: so, I think if you manage to strip -power part in /opt, we can have only 1 package17:25
iDontkerio: only if it conflicted with Nokia's configuration17:25
keriok17:25
iDontfreemangordon, I could give that a shot, I see no reason why that wouldn't work17:26
keriofreemangordon: hm, so you have a stock-ish /bin/busybox with the usual commands there, and then /opt/busybox-power/busybox-power that's symlinked from all the other commands?17:26
freemangordonthough chem|st has his point for those who may want to use some of the -power functionality in early boot17:26
keriofreemangordon: well, how early?17:26
freemangordonkerio: ask chem|st, not me :D17:27
kerioswapon priority would have to be compiled in /bin/busybox, for instance17:27
iDontfreemangordon, yes, for example Mentalist Tracuer's recovery console relies on some of busybox-power's power features17:27
DocScrutinizer05please keep in mind this whole annoying issue with initscripts depending on this very particular version of busybox cmd syntax *and* output, and semantic17:27
DocScrutinizer05the stuff that estel misquoted as "3rd party scripts" all the time17:28
kerioDocScrutinizer05: we've got more than a year of testing with busybox-power, though17:28
iDontfreemangordon, however, there are also a lot of applets that most certainly won't be used at boot (e.g. httpd)17:28
kerionon-rigorous testing, but still17:28
freemangordoniDont: you can include know stuff in /rootfs bb, I think there would be no onjections for 100-150k size increase17:29
freemangordons/know/known/17:29
infobotfreemangordon meant: iDont: you can include known stuff in /rootfs bb, I think there would be no onjections for 100-150k size increase17:29
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: agree?17:29
DocScrutinizer05kerio: this is very core mission critical stuff, you better have rigorous testing for every single possible case/branch17:29
DocScrutinizer05100k maybe on the tolerable side still, for the benefit to finally close this ticket17:30
freemangordonyeah17:30
keriohahaha17:30
DocScrutinizer05but no way to shorcut proper tests and review for any changes in cmd syntax, semantic, output17:30
DocScrutinizer05of any of the already existing cmds17:31
keriobut...17:31
keriostuff still works! :c17:31
DocScrutinizer05orly? you tested with unformatted uSD? with 911 calls? with devicelock entere3d 3 times in sequence wrong? etc pp?17:31
freemangordoniDont: ok, now we only need merlin1991 to confirm he is ok (though I think he will be)17:32
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: come on man, that is why testing is17:32
DocScrutinizer05kerio: "WFM" never is any near a proper test/review17:32
keriohm, would locking the device require nokia care?17:32
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 I seriously doubt Nokia did such tests to N90017:33
kerioDocScrutinizer05: WFM is too mainstream17:33
keriohttp://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/03/the-works-on-my-machine-certification-program.html17:33
ivgalvezconsidering the quality of PR1.017:33
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: you're free to doubt that17:33
DocScrutinizer05I know other companies do17:33
ivgalvezfor sure... Nasa17:33
kerioother companies doubt that nokia did those tests? :o17:33
ivgalvezhehe17:33
DocScrutinizer05so *I* doubt Nokia was the only company NOT doing such tests17:33
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: Nokia n900 testing was exactly what we do in CSSU-testing AFAIK17:34
ivgalvezCSSU's is better as it's done in the open17:34
iDontDocScrutinizer05, what about WFM's from a supposedly large user base? The download count (not [unique] install count) of busybox-power is 265897 according to http://maemo.dadablog.net/AppStats.php?package=busybox-power&os=fremantle17:34
DocScrutinizer05basically yes, but prior to giving some pkg to cssu-t we like devels to evaluate and rule out any obvious path for problems17:34
freemangordonbut anyway, that is irrelevant, we don't have the resources Nokia had, so have to use whatever we have17:35
merlin1991how do you plan todo the rootfs/opt thingy actually?17:35
kerioholy shit, 265k is a lot17:35
merlin1991is it meant to be 2 times busybox one stripped and one full?17:35
DocScrutinizer05yes, and our resources are pretty sufficient to review patches and find out if they change syntax, semantic, or output of a command in busybox. If they do, check if the command is used in initscripts17:36
DocScrutinizer05pretty simple straightforward task, basic sanity checks17:36
kerioDocScrutinizer05: that's inefficient17:36
iDontmerlin1991: two separate config files, tweak debian/rules to spit out two binaries. Only the symlinking has to be figured out AFAICS17:36
keriocheck if the command is used in initscripts *and then* check if the behaviour changes17:36
DocScrutinizer05kerio: no, that's the *only* efficient way17:36
iDontI got to go now, back in about half an hour. I'll stay connected to IRC17:36
DocScrutinizer05well, that way as well can get done17:36
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I don't care what we do first17:37
DocScrutinizer05I thought for a small patchset it would be better to check only the patches if they change syntax etc of command. If you prefer to check for each command used in initscripts if there's a patch for it, you're welcome17:38
freemangordoniDont: i have NFC how is the simlinking done, but I suspect it has some relation to the install directory, so I hope there is no "symlining" problem17:39
DocScrutinizer05after all I'd hope no syntax, semantic, or output changes got introduced by any of the patches we include17:40
freemangordonthe fuck, men, it is symlinking :D17:41
DocScrutinizer05after all busybox *claims* to be bourne shell compatible, so not much room for such changes after all17:41
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: afaik there are lots of bb-p users, if there was some problem, it'd be found by now. I know, I know, WFM :)17:42
DocScrutinizer05I'm mostly concerned about the fact it (has been) *not* completely bourneshell compatible, and that initscripts still rely on that, so if we'd fix any of that, we'd see massive problems eventually17:42
ivgalvezBut are you referring to actual init scripts existing in PR1.3?17:43
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: aiui we're preparing even a new version now17:43
ivgalvezor personal ones?17:43
DocScrutinizer05that hasn't seen *any* tests so far17:43
*** MrPingu has quit IRC17:43
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: referring to probably pre-1.2 official initscripts17:44
freemangordonyeah17:44
DocScrutinizer05though nobody did proper investigations on that lately afaik17:44
ivgalvezhow could one be running such ancient scripts and CSSU at the same time?17:44
freemangordonbut it will go through -devel and -thumb, so it will see some testing before entering CSSU-T17:44
DocScrutinizer05it's a known problem of pre-PR1.2 anyway. Since then changing init shell been so publicly deprecated we seen no recent tests on it17:45
* freemangordon has to go, bbl17:46
* kerio changed login shells for both user and root17:46
keriono side effects so far17:46
DocScrutinizer05I'm just saying we need to investigate if that problem just vanished without any of us noticing Nokia fixing it, or we simply didn't see it recently because of any other reason, for example nobody dared to mess with that stuff in the way we're going to do when fixing "bugs" in busybox17:46
kerioyou know how could we test it?17:48
DocScrutinizer05messing around with init shell isn't something you can do sloppy17:48
kerioby putting it in a repository dedicated to testing17:48
keriowe could call it "testing"17:48
DocScrutinizer05kerio: stop trolling please17:48
kerioor maybe "devel"17:48
keriok :c17:48
DocScrutinizer05after all it's basically init scripts that get tailored to fit the existing init shell17:50
DocScrutinizer05not other way round17:50
keriothe init shell is /bin/sh17:51
keriowell, the preinit17:51
DocScrutinizer05so whatever change in init shell needs to get checked against *all* inti scripts for possible impact17:51
kerio#!/bin/sh17:51
DocScrutinizer05you don't do such checks on a "WFM" basis, you need code-coverage-analysis basically, to make sure every single line of "code" in your scripts got run on the new shell and worked as expected17:52
DocScrutinizer05or you do the already semi-sloppy way to just grep in init scripts for the suspicious commands17:53
DocScrutinizer05"WFM" just ensures there's *ONE* working path, by no means it secures *all* possible pathes17:53
DocScrutinizer05and "we don't have the manpower for that" is no valid excuse. IF we wouldn't have enough manpower for that, we mustn't touch the thing at all17:55
DocScrutinizer05after all I still fail to see the really existing and occuring bug all this will fix17:56
ivgalvezyou are assuming that Maemo should receive code coverage from CSSU17:56
kerioDocScrutinizer05: http://busybox.net/ <- check the changelog17:56
keriofrom 1.10 to 1.2017:56
ivgalvezwhen you don't even know if it was done in its development at Nokia17:56
DocScrutinizer05so any risk on one side of scale is outweighed by exactly 0 benefit for system on the other17:56
DocScrutinizer05kerio: thanks a lot man, actually a *useful* contribution17:57
ivgalvezcode coverage outside the Aeronautical world?17:57
ivgalvezhaven't seen that in my life17:57
keriosomeone posted it earlier, actually17:57
kerioivgalvez: is "space" in aeronautical?17:57
ivgalvezwell yes, more or less the same ;)17:58
kerioivgalvez: hm, maybe the military?17:58
ivgalvezI've worked for the military industry17:58
ivgalvezyou don't want to know what kind of tests they do17:59
ivgalvezembarrasing17:59
kerioDocScrutinizer05: unsurprisingly, there's a ton of bugfixes since the stock busybox we have17:59
keriothere's also a ton of improvements17:59
*** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC17:59
*** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo-ssu17:59
DocScrutinizer05sorry, reconnect17:59
kerioDocScrutinizer05: unsurprisingly, there's a ton of bugfixes since the stock busybox we have17:59
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: code coverage is done on every semi-commercial product. N900 is a 100% commercial product, and CSSU is designed to prolongue its life17:59
keriothere's also a ton of improvements17:59
keriowhich is exactly the kind of stuff that you say we should triplecheck17:59
ivgalvezI work on commercial products17:59
ivgalvezI know people working on commercial products17:59
ivgalvezI don't know anyone making code coverage outside the DO178-C18:00
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: same here (if you're willing to consider ST-Ericsson modem used in Samsung phones as a commercial product)18:01
merlin1991do178-c?18:01
DocScrutinizer05and they *do* code coverage18:01
DocScrutinizer05in integration18:01
DocScrutinizer05though it should be done by devels actually18:01
DocScrutinizer05we also use test units18:02
ivgalvezmerlin1991: DO178-C is for certification of software on airbone environments and other critical systems18:02
DocScrutinizer05for each module18:03
DocScrutinizer05which actually are written by devels, since those are supposed to know what to test in their sub-system18:03
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 a modem is a piece of hardware with very low level software to be integrated in end user products18:03
ivgalvezit's not the same kind of product18:04
DocScrutinizer05"very low level software"?? bwahahaha18:04
ivgalvezI mean closer to the hardware18:04
ivgalvezmaybe not well expressed18:04
ivgalvezsorry now on meeting18:05
DocScrutinizer05o/18:05
iDontback18:07
DocScrutinizer05kerio: alas this 'changelog' on http://busybox.net/ isn't telling me which patches to review, since I dunno which of them get included to cssu.  For sure we don't want to include them all, since then we again hit that "eats MB of rootfs space, and impossible to review all so introduces risk" issue18:08
kerioDocScrutinizer05: well, we'd need to grab all the ones that aren't configured away18:09
kerioso at the very least anything related to commands that are included with the stock BB18:10
DocScrutinizer05so I think as long as it's freemangordon to review patches and decide which one or 2 packages we actually want to include to fix anticipated problems in busybox-vanilla, I'll just wait for his analysis if those patches change anything on syntax, semantics, or output of any command18:10
DocScrutinizer05once he delivers that list, I'm more than willing to check the changes against current initscripts and give my verdict if I think they are safe or not18:11
DocScrutinizer05(btw something estel happily rejected/ignored to do, when I suggested it to him as a true valuable contribution to cssu+bb topic)18:12
DocScrutinizer05kerio: all on your page regarding what we need to include18:13
DocScrutinizer05what we need to *consider* for inclusion18:13
DocScrutinizer05and it's exactly those patches to commands already included in busybox that need triple check18:14
keriohttp://i.qkme.me/3qpmrd.jpg18:14
DocScrutinizer05since one or two *additional* commands wouldn't probably have much impact/risk regarding maemo init, since... well they're not used for obvious reasons18:15
keriohehe18:15
kerioi just realized that the patches that shouldn't be included carelessly are the ones that are actually needed the most18:16
DocScrutinizer05so, to pick a proper example, if we get an augmented swapon command, we need to review all invocations of swapon in initscripts and related core system stuff, to secure the old syntax is compatible with the new command18:17
DocScrutinizer05kerio: indeed18:17
DocScrutinizer05if however you (hypothetically) would introduce a *new* command "change-swap-prio" then we probably could get away with rationale like >oh well, nobody ever used change-swap-prio so far, so it's probably low risk for init process to enable that command<18:19
ivgalveziDont ping18:19
ivgalvezspeaking of issues18:19
iDontivgalvez: pong18:19
ivgalvezagain rebooting the device with bb-p open  messed up my history :(18:20
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: I guess that's because of busybox, for a number of sound reasons, handles history differently to standard shell?18:21
iDontDocScrutinizer05, yes, upstream busybox has proper history saving on shell exit implemented. Maemo's version just overwrites the history file with the current shells' history on exit (e.g. multiple shells open will result in lost commands)18:22
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: aiui busybox differs massively from any other standard shell, regarding spawning of new instances for execution of scripts etc, so obviously history semantics are entangled to that18:23
DocScrutinizer05iDont: (losing commands when closing multiple instances) a behaviour pretty much expected for any standard shell18:25
DocScrutinizer05iDont: aiui on busybox you might find yourself actually *not* running multople instances even while you think you do18:26
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: well, I think I have enough stuff in the queue to put bb there as well, I think we can find someone else to do it. Remember, I have to do the same assesmment to do for KP patches ;)18:26
DocScrutinizer05yep18:26
iDontDocScrutinizer05: bash does save history from all (parallel) shell instances18:26
DocScrutinizer05I'm all aware of your workload18:26
*** mase_76 has joined #maemo-ssu18:27
*** mase_76 has quit IRC18:27
DocScrutinizer05iDont: oh, it doesnow? not when I checked last time18:27
iDontI'm speaking of interactive shells of course18:27
iDontit does on my laptop: open two terminal emulators, write some commands in both, close them both, check history18:28
DocScrutinizer05yeah, exactly. each interactive shell overwriting history file of last closing instance with its own one18:28
iDontthat shouldn't be done, as you'll lose history that way. Bash does not lose history, and so does upstream BusyBox18:29
DocScrutinizer05or you do append to file, probably by handling that in your exit rc files18:29
DocScrutinizer05or you define a prompt commad to write out each single commadline to history file the very moment you fire it up18:30
DocScrutinizer05command* ffs18:30
DocScrutinizer05there's however no IPC between distinct bash instances, regarding history file writing18:31
iDontAnd neither is there any IPC in BusyBox' ash shell. BusyBox' ash appends its history to ~/.ash_history18:32
iDontbut it can also be configured to write out history after each command (as you stated)18:33
DocScrutinizer05last time I checked I got the impression bash just writes out the internal history buffer to ~/.bash-history on exit18:33
iDontivgalvez, I could configure BusyBox to append each command to the history file, that would solve all history-related issues. That will put some extra strain on the eMMC though18:34
iDontalthough I'm not sure how much (considering it's only a line of text, but it does add up I guess)18:34
iDontanyone has some insight on that?18:34
DocScrutinizer05anyway I'd guess that's a question of configuration, done either by shell envs (set --foobar on) or simply via user's ~/.bash-startup18:34
DocScrutinizer05and ~/.bash-exit18:35
DocScrutinizer05iDont: strain to eMMC is last concern here. There are way more rogue things in that respect - after all we got IO buffering as well18:36
keriocan't it be configured, anyway?18:36
kerioand besides18:36
keriowho the fuck actually uses busybox as a login shell?18:37
DocScrutinizer05but, as mentioned, that's just a question of *user* config, since w mustn't change this behaviour for init shell which doesn't have any history for obvious reasons18:37
DocScrutinizer05kerio: trolling again?18:38
DocScrutinizer05who would use anything other than busybox for login shell?18:38
keriome, for instance!18:38
kerioi use bash18:38
ivgalveznow my history ended up with some random C++ code, I wonder where did it came from18:39
ivgalveziDont maybe that should be configurable then18:40
DocScrutinizer05sounds like a busybox bug18:40
ivgalvezkerio: most embedded systems use bb18:40
ivgalvezI use it in STB for example18:40
kerioivgalvez: i am aware of that :)18:40
iDontivgalvez, at the moment it's only configurable at compile time18:40
ivgalvez:(18:41
kerioivgalvez: the n900 is quite the powerful embedded system though :)18:41
DocScrutinizer05pretty bad18:41
DocScrutinizer05iDont: so could we get rid of any history handling in bb binary, and just handle that in the appropriate scripts?18:42
DocScrutinizer05kerio: FSCK yeah! it's more powerfull than the laptop I used when I bought my first N90018:43
iDontbusybox disables history handling completely when the shell is not interactive. History handling (and all its related compile-time configuration) should therefore be irrelevant to scripts18:43
iDontunless those scripts start with #!/bin/sh -i, which I highly doubt18:43
kerioany script writer relying on shell history should be shot18:43
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo-ssu18:44
DocScrutinizer05iDont: well, that's a pretty normal basic shell function. However if we can't configure history behaviour in a "convenient" way at runtime, we might want to move *all* history handling to some config scripts like .bashrc .bash-startup whatever the name18:45
DocScrutinizer05after all it's one simple command in startup and one in exit script18:46
iDontDocScrutinizer05, sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about18:46
DocScrutinizer05sorry, I'll try to elaborate18:47
iDontthanks :)18:47
DocScrutinizer05history: history [-c] [-d Offset] [n] oder history -anrw [Dateiname] oder history -ps Argument [Argument...]18:49
iDontBusyBox doesn't supply `history` at all18:51
DocScrutinizer05WUT?18:51
iDontcheck it ;-)18:51
DocScrutinizer05indeed, so how the fuck we should handle history at all then?18:52
DocScrutinizer05this is so incredibly stupid18:52
iDontAs user, you only can only manipulate the standard envorinment variables ($HISTFILE et al)18:53
DocScrutinizer05pfff18:53
iDonthehe, I didn't say ash is better than bash ;-)18:53
iDontit just happens to be the default shell in Maemo18:54
DocScrutinizer05~messybox18:54
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils18:54
freemangordonhehe18:55
DocScrutinizer05tr5ying to teach the dog to fly18:55
iDontyep. I mainly use busybox-power for its tools. It's really convenient to have a lot of tools always available. If can always install proper tools if BusyBox is lacking. However, that hasn't occured too much for me yet (with busybox-power)18:55
iDonts/if/I/18:55
infobotiDont meant: yep. I mainly use busybox-power for its tools. It's really convenient to have a lot of tools always available. If can always install proper tools I BusyBox is lacking. However, that hasn't occured too much for me yet (with busybox-power)18:55
iDontwoops18:56
iDontwe'll, you get what I mean18:56
iDontwell*18:56
iDontdamn18:56
*** BCMM has quit IRC18:56
iDontnot my best day18:56
DocScrutinizer05so I don't really care what you do to messybox history handling, unless it changes behaviour for non-interactive18:57
DocScrutinizer05users loving busybox for all the missing stuff may find a way to deal with whatever history handling you come up with. don't expect that to go into cssu fixed busybox-vanilla though18:58
DocScrutinizer05asince I hardly can see any reason to review that patch18:59
iDontDocScrutinizer05, I don't think we're on the same page. I'm not planning to change any history related code18:59
iDontI suggested changing a compile-time option.19:00
iDontAnd history handling is _always_ turned off for non-interactive shells (unless your script starts with #!/bin/sh -i, which it really shouldn't), so you don't have to worry about the subject at all19:00
iDontsorry if a misunderstanding has come from my side19:00
DocScrutinizer05we're worrying about *any* patches going into cssu busybox vanilla19:01
DocScrutinizer05since any patch comes with risk, and usually with added payload for rootfs19:02
DocScrutinizer05your "portrait" patch was pretty minimalistc, so no probelm to review it, and no impact to size19:02
iDontDocScrutinizer05, the portain patch was from Pali, not me  ;-)19:03
DocScrutinizer05(though I have to admit I don't get what it actually does)19:03
freemangordonhmm, do I get it right, upstream bb handles history differently from stock?19:04
freemangordon*stock maemo19:04
DocScrutinizer05seems so19:04
freemangordonin what way?19:04
iDontNokia patched in an own method to save history, but it was broken. Upstream BusyBox provides two different ways of saving shell history, configurable via a compile-time option19:05
freemangordonaah,ok. DocScrutinizer05: what is the problem with that?19:06
DocScrutinizer05no problem, just asking why we need that in busybox vanilla19:06
iDontWell, you don't want to patch in Nokia's broken method in upstream, do you?19:07
DocScrutinizer05and also asking if that assumtion it's been buggy Nokia implementation is any quotable, e.g ticker on bugtracker where Nokia admits there's a bug and not a feature we didn't understand19:07
freemangordonhehe19:07
DocScrutinizer05s/ticker/ticket/19:08
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: and also asking if that assumtion it's been buggy Nokia implementation is any quotable, e.g ticket on bugtracker where Nokia admits there's a bug and not a feature we didn't understand19:08
freemangordoniDont: what is broken? history being overwritten by the last interactive shell?19:08
freemangordoniDont: sorry if you already answered19:09
iDontone sec19:09
* DocScrutinizer05 afk now, finally getting my end-of-day / /end-of-week / end-of-contract / end-of-work drink19:09
merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: aren't you on a new contract like tomorrowß19:10
DocScrutinizer05ping me if there's a proper cssu meeting later (it's Friday after all)19:10
merlin1991s/ß/?/19:10
infobotmerlin1991 meant: DocScrutinizer05: aren't you on a new contract like tomorrow?19:10
DocScrutinizer05nope19:10
freemangordonwell, chem|st is missing, merlin1991 is away and with bad inet, I don't think there will be a meeting today ;)19:11
DocScrutinizer05good :-D19:11
freemangordonmerlin1991: may I ask you to do me a favor?19:12
merlin1991depends on the favour ;)19:12
freemangordonthere was a conversation regarding licensing of VKB RE stuff and I promised to change the license19:12
merlin1991and I gotta do what?19:13
merlin1991rm -rf / on my server? :D19:13
freemangordonfor the life of mine I cannot think of what that "(C) Nokia" license should contain19:13
freemangordonno, invent some license and replace LGPL wherever applicable19:14
iDontDocScrutinizer05, I can point out the flaw in Nokia's shell-hist.patch19:14
ivgalvezfreemangordon hi19:14
freemangordonivgalvez: hi19:14
ivgalvezwhat's the original license or eula file in Nokia's package19:14
ivgalvez?19:14
*** MrPingu has joined #maemo-ssu19:15
freemangordonthere is no ;)19:15
ivgalvezyou just need to keep that file19:15
ivgalvezdoh!19:15
ivgalvezOK, then use this: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php19:15
ivgalvezand add a notice file19:15
iDontfreemangordon, back to you. Were you talking about Maemo's busybox, upstream BusyBox, or busybox-power :-P?19:15
iDontin your question19:15
ivgalvezsaying what we already tlked last day19:16
freemangordonivgalvez: not applicable, I used binaries from SB :P19:16
freemangordoniDont: just a minute, I want to finish with that license once and for all :)19:17
iDontk19:17
ivgalvezActually, qgil commented yesterday by email that Nokia EULA and already exiisting declarations on TMO are covering fair use19:17
ivgalvezfor Nokia devices19:17
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: ++ and thanks!19:17
ivgalvezI have insisted about it and he answered that it's absolutely clear that we can use Nokia copyright for Open Source projects on Nokia devices19:18
ivgalvezqgil: "There won't be anything more official than what has been written and19:19
ivgalvezexplained in the forum. The Nokia EULA is official and it doesn't make19:19
ivgalvezany sense to have an official message contradicting the EULA. Please19:19
ivgalvezkeep playing nice and there won't be any problem."19:19
ivgalvezso don't try to install Maemo in $DEVICE19:19
DocScrutinizer05"this file may contain parts derived from disassembly of binaries unde Nokia's copyright (see http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php). The original licencing conditions apply to to all those derived parts as well and you accept those by using this file"19:20
DocScrutinizer05sth like that will do19:20
ivgalvezperfect19:20
ivgalvezso now we need to contact Adobe ;)19:20
DocScrutinizer05SSSHHH!19:21
DocScrutinizer05;-)19:21
freemangordonhmm, I like that, thanks, going to update the sources19:22
ivgalvezno probs19:23
DocScrutinizer05please fix my spelling ;-)19:23
kerio"hey adobe, we're gonna ship your latest flash player on maemo kthxbye"19:23
freemangordonhehe19:23
merlin1991kerio: the important part is the kthxbye :D19:23
ivgalvezmerlin1991 I hope somehow you will be able to actually administrate the repos during next week19:26
ivgalvezI have a big list of applications to promote form Testing-Squad list ;)19:26
* DocScrutinizer05 sips on his nice cold drink19:26
merlin1991ivgalvez: as soon as I can actually do stuff I'll be happy todo so :)19:27
DocScrutinizer05kerio: (latest flash player) do we actually *want* to do that? would we even be able to find something worth it?19:28
kerioeeh, you're probably right19:28
keriomost porn sites work fine with flash 919:28
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: how's your vacations?19:28
freemangordon/**19:29
freemangordon@file hildon-im-vkbrenderer3.c19:29
freemangordonThis file is part of libhildon-im-vkbrenderer3.19:29
freemangordonТhis file may contain parts derived from disassembly of binaries under Nokia's copyright,19:29
freemangordonsee http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php.19:29
freemangordonThe original licencing conditions apply to all those derived parts as well19:29
freemangordonand you accept those by using this file.19:29
freemangordon*/19:29
kerio*licensing19:29
freemangordonok?19:29
freemangordonthanks19:29
DocScrutinizer05OK19:29
kerioalso, maybe "the disassembly"?19:29
merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: perfect, only tomorrow is the last day :/19:29
ivgalvezgreat19:29
* kerio is not a native english speaker19:29
* freemangordon too19:30
ivgalvezmerlin1991 did you actually do anything apart from going to the beach?19:30
DocScrutinizer05derived by disassembling...19:30
DocScrutinizer05-of19:30
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: so enjoy it to the last minute19:31
DocScrutinizer05maemo madness waiting for you, you know ;-)19:31
merlin1991ivgalvez: been to ronda and gibraltar19:31
DocScrutinizer05\o/19:32
ivgalveznice19:32
merlin1991and then ofc lots of beach and booze :)19:32
DocScrutinizer05both nice places I've been as well19:32
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: don't miss to visit cabo trafalgar / los canos de mecca19:32
ivgalvezCaños de Meca19:33
DocScrutinizer05some 50(?) km from Gibraltar up the atlantic coast19:33
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: indeed19:33
freemangordonI suppose I can have different licensing for .c/.h, as I want headers LGPL licensed19:33
freemangordon?19:33
DocScrutinizer05probably, yes19:33
freemangordonwhat about package (C)?19:34
ivgalvezperfectly possible, just add the license notice in each header file19:34
DocScrutinizer05as long as the .h don't include stuff too obviously basing on disassembly19:34
DocScrutinizer05package (C) always the most restrictive option of all available19:34
freemangordonwell, function names, but nothing like v2119:34
ivgalvezthe package contains Nokia stuff so it has to keep Nokia copyright19:35
freemangordonok19:35
ivgalvezand is not redistributable out of Nokia devices19:35
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: function names are free ;-)19:35
DocScrutinizer05var names as well19:35
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC19:36
DocScrutinizer05yeah, beefeater kicks ass19:36
DocScrutinizer05:-D19:36
merlin1991how does that fit? :D19:36
merlin1991half a day spent on irc in spain, time to get out again xD19:36
DocScrutinizer05not at all, to the topic. Pretty good, to my mood19:37
merlin1991hehe19:37
merlin1991though tbh beefeater is not that good gin19:37
DocScrutinizer05good enough for longdrinks19:37
DocScrutinizer05(they had no Gordon's @ Karstadt :-o )19:38
merlin1991anyway I'll go and find me some longdrink, probably back on sunday19:38
DocScrutinizer05cya, enjoy yourself!19:38
iDonthave a good one, merlin1991!19:39
freemangordonhttp://pastebin.com/XkyaJBh219:44
freemangordonok?19:44
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05 ^^^19:45
*** MrPingu has quit IRC19:54
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: seems ok19:56
DocScrutinizer05somebody will rise concerns that there are two conflicting licences, but I'm not one of them, since I think it's clear that the second more restrictive one overrides the GPL where applicable19:57
DocScrutinizer05(sorry for delay)19:57
freemangordonyep, fixed it20:01
freemangordonhttps://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-im-vkbrenderer3/blobs/63e2f77d158f74d809264187e93c4d8b54d59545/debian/copyright20:01
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: ^^^20:01
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: perfect20:02
freemangordonwill change the other package too, but tomorrow :)20:05
* DocScrutinizer05 swallows some bitter comment about este^H^H and prepares another drink20:05
freemangordoniDont: I was asking what is broken in stock bb20:06
DocScrutinizer05yumyumyum http://www.cocktailscout.de/cocktail_Gr__ne_Wiese_rezept_149.html20:10
DocScrutinizer05actually baeh!20:11
DocScrutinizer05missing the proper huge dash of gin20:11
iDontfreemangordon: if you have multiple instances of ash open, only the command history of the last closed shell will be saved. All commands typed in other instances will be lost20:13
DocScrutinizer05haha http://www.cocktaildatenbank.de/cocktail-rezepte/801-gruene-wiese20:13
freemangordoniDont: ok20:14
freemangordonand what is upstream doing?20:14
freemangordoniDont: TBH there is lots of stuff that can be stripped from bb-p, rpm and rpm2cpio for example :)20:16
iDontBy default, it appends each command to the history file. All instances of ash does this, so you'll get interleaving commands from different ash instances20:16
freemangordonok20:16
freemangordonsounds ggod20:16
freemangordongood even20:16
iDontif you set ENABLE_FEATURE_EDITING_SAVE_ON_EXIT at compile time, it will append its history to the histfile on shell closure20:16
freemangordonwhich is close to stock behaviour, ain't?20:17
freemangordoniDont: what httpd in busybox do?20:17
DocScrutinizer05yeah sonds pretty convenient20:17
iDontYes, and that's what we have turned on in busybox-power (to save wear on the eMMC). However, if ash is closed unnicely (for the lack of a better term), the history file can get garbled20:18
iDontthat's still a bug that puzzles me20:18
DocScrutinizer05iDont: don't worry about eMMc wear!20:18
keriofreemangordon: make an educated guess20:19
DocScrutinizer05...since your EE colleagues already did ;-)20:19
freemangordonyeah, that won't get flushed until needed20:19
iDont:-D great!20:19
iDontthen there is no issue wrt history handling at all anymore20:20
DocScrutinizer05you get buffering on any (laso eMMC) writes to storage anyway20:20
DocScrutinizer05so "don't worry, be happy!"20:20
keriois there a way to enable something similar to TRIM for the eMMC?20:20
DocScrutinizer05*burp*20:20
DocScrutinizer05sync:sync20:21
DocScrutinizer05;20:21
kerio...no20:21
iDontfreemangordon, httpd is a complete webserver implementation in busybox ;-)20:21
keriothat's nt TRIM20:21
freemangordoniDont: I think you should be able to move httpd, rpm stuff, sendmail, etc to /opt and get rid of acpid and such20:21
iDontfreemangordon, although a tiny one20:21
DocScrutinizer05there's no TRIM on mmc20:21
kerioshame20:21
iDontfreemangordon, yes, and probably more as well20:21
freemangordonyep20:21
DocScrutinizer05TRIM is pretty lowlevel20:22
DocScrutinizer05eMMC controller doesn't have API for that20:22
freemangordonand you will fit in those 100-150 k limit, witout risk to break someone's early boot script20:22
iDonteveryone's happy :-)20:22
freemangordonyep :)20:22
DocScrutinizer05without risk to break somebody's heart ;-D20:23
freemangordonmission accomplished20:23
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders if it's his nature to play the bastard, or it's just some users who don't get the whole picture make him feel like that20:24
iDontI'm very glad we finally got something productive going regarding busybox and CSSU. Last week hasn't been really fun for anyone I guess20:24
DocScrutinizer05actually I'm also striving for the best of maemo20:24
iDontDocScrutinizer05, I think nobody would deny that20:24
DocScrutinizer05but I get mad on somebody forecefeeding anything to somebody else20:25
freemangordoniDont: well, it is up to you then. Though my proposal is to clone bb as it is now(on gitorious), forward the source to upstream, make the needed changes and request a merge20:25
freemangordonthat way we can make a review of what are the actual changes in the source code20:26
DocScrutinizer05iDont: I concur with last (2) week(s) nobody felt happy (except maybe estel for his successful trolling)20:26
freemangordoniDont: is that sound sane?20:27
DocScrutinizer05nah, that's been mean20:27
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: why?20:27
DocScrutinizer05I think even estel wants the best for maemo20:27
freemangordonaah, ok20:27
freemangordonyou are still on estel :P20:27
DocScrutinizer05he just has poor diplomatical skills20:27
iDontfreemangordon, yes, sounds good. However, there are a _lot_ of commits between BusyBox 1.10 and 1.2020:27
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: yeah, that tears me down more than you might expect20:28
freemangordoniDont: btw by saying "upstream" do you mean "debian" or some git repo?20:29
DocScrutinizer05I just don't get it how he's such a douchebag and always bitching at me20:29
iDontI mean the latest stable tagged busybox release by upstream20:29
kerioDocScrutinizer05: what do you mean you don't get it?20:29
kerioit's easy20:29
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's your fault the freerunner sucked!20:29
keriosee?20:30
DocScrutinizer05after all he seems the only one thinking I got time to spare just to annoy him20:30
freemangordonguys, lets finish with bb, please20:30
kerioand let's move to cbsms20:30
DocScrutinizer05kerio: indeed, I should've jumped in more early, with much more verve, to save the project20:30
keriowait, really?20:30
kerioso it *was* your fault! :O20:31
iDont@freemangordon <iDont> I mean the latest stable tagged busybox release by upstream20:31
freemangordonkerio: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/operator-name-cbs-widget/commit/5d30fedb5ebea226d9ccfe9ac8453bfe9acb02c4/diffs/9c19e807f04312b1e5d71d4283f4aa55bd152f0f20:31
freemangordonnow, lets go back to bb20:31
keriowtf is that20:32
DocScrutinizer05kerio: lol for cbsms20:32
freemangordoniDont: well, then you should be able to simply rebase (after removing nokia patches)20:32
DocScrutinizer05good topic change20:32
kerioDocScrutinizer05: don't lol, that's your fault too!20:32
DocScrutinizer05yes!!!!20:32
DocScrutinizer05I take all the blame for it20:33
DocScrutinizer05I however won't accept it as an excuse to continue like that20:33
iDontfreemangordon, yes, that's what I'll do. I had a little misunderstanding ;-)20:33
kerioi don't want to use it as an excuse to continue like that, i want it out of my cssu :C20:33
kerioor fixed20:34
DocScrutinizer05after all, if we don't learn from our mistakes, we're real fools20:34
kerioby the way, the dpkg divert it uses is a massive kludge20:34
freemangordonkerio: hmm, where is your CSSU, I want to try it.20:34
kerioand whoever thought of that should be shot in the back20:34
kerioor maybe lightly mocked20:34
kerioone of those two20:35
freemangordonkerio: wasn't trolling so far enough?20:35
kerioif you want to do a proper one of those, do the same as the future busybox-power - provide and conflict with connui-home-cellular20:35
DocScrutinizer05kerio: (out of cssu or ficed) I'm all with you regarding that20:36
DocScrutinizer05kerio: and I promise it won't make it to cssu-s in this condition it's now20:36
DocScrutinizer05kerio: THAT is what cssu-t is all about. Get packages you *think* are already withput problems, then learn if they actually are20:37
DocScrutinizer05but it's no excuse to act sloppy on prior evaluation of possible problems to anticipate20:38
DocScrutinizer05I failed on anticipating the problems we see with cbsms20:38
DocScrutinizer05and I take the blame for that20:38
keriobesides...20:39
keriocan't it be enabled on-demand?20:39
DocScrutinizer05I however *won't* take any accusations for trying to avoid same mistake in the future20:39
kerioit's ok, i still love you <320:40
DocScrutinizer05and I probably hire ninjas if some estel comes again stating I don't contribute so his valuable experience is way more relevant than anything I say20:42
DocScrutinizer05after all for *what* he ever took responsibility?20:43
DocScrutinizer05what has been his invaluable contribution to maemo at large, except some pretty poorly written shellscript 10-liners that *we* tought him char by char20:44
DocScrutinizer05and yet they were like WTF-of-the-week20:45
DocScrutinizer05since he didn't listen and learn20:45
DocScrutinizer05meh , could somebody kick me please?20:45
* kerio kicks DocScrutinizer05 on the shins20:45
DocScrutinizer05thanks20:46
iDontfreemangordon, is there anything else to discuss regarding busybox? I'll make sure to do what you suggested, although I can't promise that it'll be completely done first thing tomorrow ;)20:46
DocScrutinizer05iDont: nobody expexts that, so relax20:46
iDont:-)20:46
iDontOtherwise I'll call it a day, got some plans for tonight (Friday!)20:47
DocScrutinizer05iDont: after all, we don't even have a pressing bug ticket against the whole thing20:47
DocScrutinizer05iDont: so I suggest you get a life, something I should finally try to do as well :-d20:48
DocScrutinizer05:-D20:48
iDonthehe, true. Busybox-power in its current state does however fix quite a few maemo bugs (/feature requests)20:48
DocScrutinizer05maybe, but how many users of N900 will not sleep due to thise bugs tonight?20:49
DocScrutinizer05cssu is about the comfy feeling that you don't have to worry20:50
DocScrutinizer05since there are other guys doing that for you20:50
iDontwell, if they really can't sleep, they can alway apt-get install busybox-power!20:51
DocScrutinizer05if you wanna go bleeding edge or as 1337 as it gets, there are other ways you can do20:51
iDontregarding CSSU, who doesn't have that installed ;p20:51
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly20:51
DocScrutinizer05cssu is first and foremost about bringing security fixes to users. 2nd about fixing long pending annoyances everybody suffers from, like e.g. portait (not a good example) or cpu-hog-bug in hildon-desktop (much better example)20:53
DocScrutinizer05cssu is _not_ about "leading your people to the promised land" (like in holy bible) though20:54
iDontyup, I get what you're saying20:54
DocScrutinizer05fine, probably I should take own advice and continue my ethanol intoxication enterprise somewhere else20:55
DocScrutinizer05~seen estel_20:55
infobotestel_ <~Estel@Maemo/Community/council/Estel-> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 6h 25m 16s ago, saying: 'happy trolling, i'm out.'.20:56
iDonthehe20:56
DocScrutinizer05byebye20:56
iDontI'm calling it a day as well. Everyone have a good one tonight! Bye!20:56
*** iDont has quit IRC20:56
DocScrutinizer05iDont: thanks for participating20:56
DocScrutinizer05any enjoy your time20:56
*** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-ssu20:57
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC20:57
DocScrutinizer05<kerio> can't it be enabled on-demand? #### sure it should be optional20:59
DocScrutinizer05and we already agreed on it going cssu-extras20:59
DocScrutinizer05minus the lib patch which is core system but for now seems to be safe21:00
DocScrutinizer05yay, newsflashes21:00
DocScrutinizer05o/21:00
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu21:04
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:12
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC21:23
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu21:25
*** javispedro has joined #maemo-ssu21:34
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:35
*** nox-- has joined #maemo-ssu21:35
*** nox-- has quit IRC21:36
*** nox-- has joined #maemo-ssu21:36
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu21:46
*** arcean_ has quit IRC21:52
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu21:53
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:54
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu21:54
*** arcean has quit IRC21:58
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu21:59
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:59
*** arcean has quit IRC22:07
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu22:09
*** javispedro has quit IRC22:17
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu22:26
gregoakerio: cbs-widget: pali has pushed some fixes yesterday, and I've built packages for myself. so far they look good, at least the operator name doesn't vanish when I switch between 2G and 3G. if you want to try: wget http://info.comodo.priv.at/tmp/connui-home-cellular_3.1+nmu1_armel.deb ; wget  http://info.comodo.priv.at/tmp/operator-name-cbs-widget_3.1+nmu1_armel.deb23:04
keriogregoa: yay ^_^23:07
kerioi'll try those23:07
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i actually meant keeping both the stock one and the cb one saved, and loading one or the other depending on whether the user enables something in Settings23:08
gregoakerio: let's hope they fix your problems too23:08
keriogregoa: btw, one of those two packages is a fake23:08
keriojust fyi :)23:08
gregoaI know I know23:09
keriosadly, the *wrong* package is a fake23:12
keriogregoa: i'll have to test it for a couple of days i think23:23
keriogregoa: not sure about you, but i don't always get the problem23:23
* gregoa nods23:23
kerioonce i do, though, it stays there until i reboot23:23
keriobesides, i think it also depends on the cell i'm connected to23:24
keriowhich makes the problem... "fun" to diagnose, i suppose23:24
gregoawith the latest version I could reproduce the "no op name" reliably by switching between 2G and 3G, and this effect is gone now at least23:24
gregoabtw, "killall hildon-home" seems to be enough for reviving it23:25
kerioit's always temporary for me23:25
keriolike, after i switch i get the wrong name/no name again23:25
kerioanyway, i suppose i can just leave operator-name-cbs-widget installed as a fake package23:26
kerioand reinstall the stock connui-home-cellular23:26
kerio:D23:26
DocScrutinizer05CHEEERS23:30
*** arcean has quit IRC23:31
DocScrutinizer05beefeater is quite nice, when dilluted in orrange juice23:31
DocScrutinizer05-l23:32
DocScrutinizer05-r23:32
DocScrutinizer05meh23:32
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu23:32
DocScrutinizer05friggin paperwork all over the world23:33
DocScrutinizer05CV! >:-(23:33
* DocScrutinizer05 shoots the C23:33
DocScrutinizer05and the V separately23:33
DocScrutinizer05since when a CV ever told something really relevant about he person in question23:34
DocScrutinizer05I always hired my teams without any fancy CV, just on the merit they exposed to me23:37
DocScrutinizer05competence, commitment, and character23:38
DocScrutinizer055 minutes of talk already tell you more than any friggin CV23:39
DocScrutinizer055 min of chat will do almost as well23:40
*** andre__ has quit IRC23:47

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!