IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Tuesday, 2011-01-25

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JaffaThanks to Tuxsavvy for fleshing out the wiki page. I've done a few edits and merged content back into the release announcement: http://www.ietherpad.com/k1A4SMLW7O11:30
JaffaI think the latter may be good to go... Thoughts?11:30
psycho_oreos:)11:30
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ZogGJaffa i insist to put qrcode on page =))13:22
MohammadAGso lemme get this straight13:56
MohammadAGyou want someone to open a PC, take out his N900, open the QR reader, read the barcode, open the link in microB which will open HAM13:57
MohammadAGinstead of opening the link on the N900 itself o_O13:57
merlin1991mircob sucks ;)14:07
merlin1991and I like the idea of ZogG, I often search for stuff on my laptop and then have todo that AGAIN on the phone to get it14:07
merlin1991it would be simply nice to just hold the phone to the screen to tell it I WANT THIS NOW :)14:08
ZogGMohammadAG yes, a lot of times i search web on desctop for n900 stuff and than use QR code generator to open it on n90014:09
ZogGfaster copy-paste with mouse than typing on n90014:09
ZogGMohammadAG, on your case you open microb - type page (that can be long in our case you don't get on wiki straight and need to wait to load other pages and to know where it is in documentation) and than click on it14:10
ZogGon other hand you open lens you have launcher and you choose mbarcode or you do;t have launcher you just launch mbarcdode and one click it opens ham thru microb automagicly14:11
merlin1991I'm sure we could get a patch to mbarcode to leave out the microb step on .install files14:12
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MohammadAGJaffa, thoughts? I guess it can be added14:12
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JaffaI don't have a problem with it being added but a) it'd need a wiki page we can link to writing about "what are these QR code things"14:25
JaffaThe easier option is to just set up bit.ly/cssu-testing and bit.ly/cssu which'll redirect to the .install files...14:25
JaffaTyping those is pretty easy, but this area isn't great on Maemo, I'd agree.14:26
JaffaThe time taken to take a picture is so long though14:26
ZogGmerlin1991 we can, dev told he can do it, if we want =)14:31
ZogGJaffa you don';t take picture with mbrcode you just point it at picture and less than sec you have option to open link14:32
merlin1991I'd say we do then, it's defenitely a handy feature14:32
ZogGJaffa you just use qr code picture as clickable14:32
merlin1991and have the WTF IS THIS page linked :)14:32
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ZogGand you mention the link above a code so person can choice so MohammadAG can go oldschool typing style =)14:33
MohammadAGI'm not typing actually, I'm just using microB to browse to the install file :p14:33
ZogGmerlin1991 you just say, you can click on this pretty image or you can use mbarcode for automagical rederection (where mbarcode is link to wiki page for mbarcode)14:33
MohammadAGmerlin1991, have a WTF is WTF page linked too :)14:33
ZogGMohammadAG did you sday? your mircob just knows how to redirect you to install itself? do you use libastral?14:34
ZogGlet's invite mbarcode dev here14:35
MohammadAGno, I browse tmo on microB14:35
MohammadAGlardman? sure14:35
MohammadAGbut this isn't really a priority :p14:36
merlin1991ZogG I would put 2 things on the page, the oldschool install icon with the .install linked on it, and the barcode wich links to a what is this weird picture all about page14:36
ZogGmerlin1991 i think you should say or use mbarcode on your phone for this [pic] where mbarcode is link for mbarcode wiki14:37
ZogGlet's ask lardman14:37
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ZogGlardman \o/14:37
lardmanhi chaps14:38
lardmanno, I can look at the log if you want14:38
lardmandoh, wrong window14:39
ZogGtoo late14:40
ZogGyou should answer at pm =)14:40
ZogGsorry man14:40
ZogGhttp://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/ =)))14:40
ZogGlardman, do you want to make wiki of mbarcode or you want someone esle to do it and can you do the plugin for HAM or fapman ?14:40
* lardman reads the log about using mBarcode to install files14:40
ZogGi'm gotta go now =(14:40
lardmanok ZogG, thanks for the heads up14:40
lardmanZogG: there;s already a wiki page for mBarcode, or do you mean specifically for installing HAM stuff?14:41
ZogGi just use your awesome app a lot and it's very fast actually it captures barcode really fast14:41
ZogGlardman, if we have wiki it's even better14:41
ZogGJaffa, ^14:41
lardmanas someone said, I can also remove the requirement to open microb to grab the install file, or we can choose a custom identifier, I'm easy14:41
ZogGhttp://wiki.maemo.org/MBarcode nice - but it misses one main thing14:42
ZogGusage, maybe even youtube video for noobies would be nice or some shots14:42
ZogGpics i mean14:43
lardmanZogG: yes, it's work in progress, but feel free to add to it14:43
lardmanI can add a section there describing what will happen if you point it at an "install file" QR code, no problem14:44
ZogGlardman i think you should make something less specific. Just something like USAGE 1) urls 2) contcts exchange 3) something else14:45
lardmanZogG: yeah, well I thought I'd stick sections about vCard, iCal, etc, etc, and one of those sections would be "install files"14:45
MohammadAGZogG, fapman is out of the question14:45
lardmansomething like that anyway14:46
ZogGMohammadAG why?14:46
ZogGlardman if you add somwething like instal:// can you add in option "open with..." and than fapman or ham where ham is default? i know i ask too much14:47
lardmanno, that is quite doable14:47
lardmanwhat is not ideal though is encoding the entire install file in the QR code, as the codes are then very big14:47
lardmanthough it does work, and the code is in SVN to support that14:47
lardmanAndroid do something similar with a market:// url14:48
lardmanand just the name of the app after the ://14:48
RST38hDiscussing android-styled installation-by-qrcode?14:48
merlin1991yes14:49
MohammadAGQDesktopServices to open the file lardman14:49
MohammadAGnothing more14:49
MohammadAGwe need HAM's update style14:49
lardmandepends whether it's a file14:49
merlin1991whatabout filtering urls for http://repository.maemo.org/.+\.install and then pushing that info to ham (sry I dunno what microb does exactly to the .install files)?14:49
MohammadAG.installs are files14:49
ZogGlardman we can use it like that -> if it's link we can make url shorter for this so qr code would small and not complicated, or it can be app://repo|app_name14:49
MohammadAGit just opens the .install using the default handler14:49
MohammadAGskips the open/save dialog14:50
MohammadAGthat's it14:50
lardmanmicrob just invokes the default mime handler for the file14:50
MohammadAGand that's basically what should be done14:50
lardmanbbiam, meeting14:50
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merlin1991ZogG I never played with qr barcodes, but how big would the image of a link like http://wiki.maemo.org/images/e/e3/ClickToInstall.png be?14:51
merlin1991err14:51
merlin1991http://repository.maemo.org/community-testing/community-testing-fremantle.install14:51
merlin1991:D14:51
lardman|afkhttp://qrcode.kaywa.com/14:51
lardman|afkpaste it and see14:51
ZogGmerlin1991 it would be big enuf but we would use tinurl or goo.gl/blahbla14:52
ZogGanyway14:52
MohammadAGthat's double redirection :P14:52
ZogGhttp://qrcode.kaywa.com/img.php?s=5&d=http%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2Fqjy2Q14:53
ZogGthis is after shorter14:53
ZogGwithut it http://qrcode.kaywa.com/img.php?s=5&d=http%3A%2F%2Frepository.maemo.org%2Fcommunity-testing%2Fcommunity-testing-fremantle.install14:53
MohammadAGsecond one looks sexier14:54
ZogGMohammadAG, but as we said we can make for repo install files specific plugin so it would only need community-testing14:54
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merlin1991well we can assume that repository.maemo.org won't change name14:55
ZogGfor example repo:// would make http://repository.maemo.org/$repo_name$/$repo_name$.install14:55
ZogGthan it would be really small14:56
ZogGhttp://qrcode.kaywa.com/img.php?s=5&d=repo%3A%2F%2Fcommunity-testing - for repo://community-testing14:56
merlin1991--> have mbarcode tranlsate app:// (or whatever we wan't here) to http://repository.maemo.org/ so you just have repo + package14:57
merlin1991http://qrcode.kaywa.com/img.php?s=5&d=app%3A%2F%2Fcommunity-testing%2Fcommunity-testing-fremantle.install14:57
ZogGmerlin1991 i think we should have two separete plugins for repos and apps14:58
ZogGor even it can be the same14:58
ZogGjust app://reponame/appname14:59
MohammadAGI still don't understand the point of all this btw :p14:59
ZogGMohammadAG, it's just easier14:59
MohammadAGif the barcode has *.install in it14:59
ZogGi assume maemo to have more apps14:59
MohammadAGdl the file14:59
MohammadAGopen it14:59
ZogGMohammadAG i suggested as well to have mbarcode to open install files for apps15:00
MohammadAGok15:00
MohammadAGmy point stands15:00
merlin1991it's all about using a huge screen to browse for 1337 appz and just point your phone to the screen to install them instead of manually typing the .install url or having to wait for ham to init the app list15:00
MohammadAGdownload file, open it15:00
ZogGso when you announce your new qtmediaplayer you use qrcode and not usrl15:00
merlin1991and download file, open it isn't that easy on win15:01
MohammadAGI'm not using either15:01
merlin1991it's not fun at all to move file to phone and open on phone under win15:01
MohammadAGmerlin1991,15:01
MohammadAG.install files opening in HAM refreshes the list15:02
ZogGMohammadAG ok i found app in extras it's awesome_app it would be easier to open ham to wait for loading to go to search to find it to click and wait reloading or just open mbarcode and than it does it automagicly15:02
MohammadAGthis is a slower implementation, we've seen how the ovi store compares15:02
MohammadAGI'd understand this'd work for symbian15:02
MohammadAGbut maemo has repos15:02
ZogGovi store sucks, maybe than they would integrate as well, i like browsing stuff on desctop15:02
MohammadAGjust fire up an app manager and search for the awesome app name you found15:03
merlin1991MohammadAG, what's the time ratio of opening mime handler for .install vs fireing up ham and finding the app you want and installing?15:03
MohammadAGmerlin1991, 10:1 I'd say15:03
ZogGMohammadAG takes too much actions and time15:03
MohammadAGthe more the repos you have the worse it gets15:03
merlin199110 in the .install or the ham side?15:03
ZogGham15:03
MohammadAGopening a .install file refreshes all repositories15:03
ZogGMohammadAG, opening ham and searching do the same =)15:04
ZogGMohammadAG, and opening deb?15:04
merlin1991well we know what we need then15:04
merlin1991mbarcode --> apt-get install15:04
ZogGwe can make mbarcode to wget it and open it localy on phone15:04
MohammadAGso you're turning mbarcode into an application manager15:05
MohammadAGZogG, that kills the whole concept of a repository15:05
ZogGMohammadAG, nope just plugin15:05
MohammadAGriiight15:05
ZogGanyway you have choice so i prefer this and you that15:06
ZogGit's all about opensource and choice isn't it?15:06
MohammadAGthis isn't actually a choice15:06
ZogGwhy not, you can always paste link near15:06
MohammadAGdownloading a deb through mbarcode is NOT sane15:06
ZogGit works fine in android and i liked it15:06
merlin1991MohammadAG, what do you think of having mbarcode go to apt-get install, as a shortcut for installing apps? assuming you browse on your pc and not on the phone15:06
MohammadAGandroid doesn't use apt or debs15:06
ZogGMohammadAG, ok no downloading but previous option15:06
MohammadAGI'm all for mbarcode downloading the .install, opening it in HAM and discarding it15:07
ZogGis HAM closed?15:07
MohammadAGno15:07
ZogGso why wouldn't we change the repo reloading thing?15:07
ZogGMohammadAG, just try using mbarcode once you would understand15:08
merlin1991because that has an idea behind15:08
merlin1991what if you try to .install a new app15:08
merlin1991and your repos are out of date15:08
ZogGright =)15:08
merlin1991it's the it always works approach15:08
MohammadAGI use mbarcode15:08
ZogGno you don't15:08
MohammadAG...15:08
ZogGyou just want me to feel bad15:08
merlin1991"I'm all for mbarcode downloading the .install, opening it in HAM and discarding it" that was our inital proposal before we went crazy :D15:08
MohammadAGyes15:09
ZogGlet's start with it and than move to app integration15:09
MohammadAGand for the SSU, I DON'T want fapman doing anything15:09
ZogGas i understand HAM would reload repo's if you open with mbarcode or not - so mbarcode wins by default =)15:09
MohammadAGno15:10
MohammadAGHAM does not update lists when you open it15:10
MohammadAGit takes its time to parse them15:10
ZogGMohammadAG, i think it would be nice to have option which app would handle it ( but sure to leave HAM by default)15:10
MohammadAGno ZogG15:10
MohammadAGfapman lacks things for an SSU15:10
MohammadAGit doesn't process flags such as system-update and reboot15:11
MohammadAGit doesn't set UBIFS compression15:11
merlin1991does ham take forever to parse the lists when you go to the download window, or what takes it so long unitll you get the app list?15:11
ZogGMohammadAG, so if i want to install new app just added to repo, how do i find it if it's not updated?15:11
MohammadAGmerlin1991, parsing15:11
ZogGit's the same as i see it15:11
MohammadAG...15:11
MohammadAGif you open a .install file, it updates lists and parses items15:12
merlin1991wtf15:12
ZogGyes15:12
MohammadAGif you open HAM, it just parses the lists15:12
MohammadAGyou're doubling if not trippling install time15:12
MohammadAGclicking a .install for each app is retarded15:12
MohammadAGand that's why ovi is retarded15:12
ZogGbut not everyone add apps to repo15:13
MohammadAGit literally takes 5 minutes to install a 100kb app from ovi store15:13
MohammadAGthat's their fault!15:13
merlin1991I understand that ham updates lists when opening .install, but why on earth would it parse when it should just install an app?15:13
ZogGand i still can't get it, how it can be different if you say where app is and if you search for app15:13
MohammadAGmerlin1991, package domains and such15:13
MohammadAGmerlin1991, so you don't replace system packages15:14
merlin1991ham should have a dbus interface to get it install an app15:14
merlin1991hm, why doesn't ham cache the parsed information, I mean untill you update the lists that information should remane valid?15:16
merlin1991s/remane/remain15:16
MohammadAGHAM's not optimized to do that15:16
MohammadAGmerlin1991, try HAM on a PC15:16
MohammadAGit's quite awesome15:16
MohammadAGI think it expects a faster CPU15:17
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lardmanre15:17
merlin1991MohammadAG, does that mean you can replace a system packages by invoking apt-install with a replacement?15:19
merlin1991err15:19
merlin1991apt-get install15:19
MohammadAGwithout a metapackage holding them, yes15:19
lardmanhmm, lots of backlog15:19
MohammadAGi'll try to sum it all up lardman15:19
lardmanfundamentally I would also find it easier to look download apps by taking image of barcode, then leaving phone to do its thing15:20
MohammadAG1- suggestion to handle .install files and open them in HAM15:20
MohammadAGthen you left15:20
MohammadAG2- make mbarcode handle installations with apt-get15:20
lardmanI can read it, don't worry15:20
merlin1991hm that leads to a follow up quesiton, aren't the system packages all holded by a metapackage?15:20
MohammadAGmerlin1991, you're in #maemo-ssu, that assumption is broken15:21
merlin1991true :/15:21
merlin1991so mbarcode -> apt-get would be nice and fast if we stay with pr1.3, damn it15:21
MohammadAGand the apps that are not in the repos should move into the repos15:22
MohammadAGhowever15:23
lardmanMy position is this: I don't use the N900 for browsing if I have a PC in front of me; in that case, if I see a new super app that I'd like to install, whether it be in a new repo or one of the existing ones, it would be easier for me to be able to point the N900 at something and get it to arse about with connecting, updating, downloading without further input from me. This is where mBarcode would work for me15:23
MohammadAGanyway, doesn't this all require some structuring at maemo.org?15:24
lardmanwhat it downloads is immaterial, but obviously should not be the .deb, better would be to either download an .install, or generate one on the fly from the data in the uri, or to invoke apt-get (perhaps)15:24
MohammadAGhmm15:24
MohammadAGif this is for maemo.org15:24
MohammadAGI think the qr code can hold a .install, or a package name15:25
lardmanyes it would, but the barcode payload has to be ironed out15:25
lardmanand the code added to mBarcode so it works for testing, etc15:25
MohammadAGif package name is found, run one of both UIs to install the package15:25
lardmanwhen you say .install, you mean url to the file, or the contents of the file?15:25
MohammadAGthe url15:25
MohammadAGthe way i understand it, android doesn't use something similar to apt-get15:26
MohammadAGso getting the ipk is enough15:26
lardmanit just opens the Market app on the right page I think15:26
lardmanI've not tested it tbh15:26
MohammadAGthere are apps that aren't in the market afaik15:27
lardmanif we had a decent app manager with reviews and descriptions, etc., that would make sense15:27
MohammadAGfapman can be used there15:27
MohammadAG(but again, I don't want it for the ssu)15:28
MohammadAGbasically15:28
MohammadAGreplace fapman's review dialog with a window15:28
MohammadAGthe fetches rating, description, screenshot if available15:28
MohammadAGcydia on the iPhone's like that15:28
lardmanyes that would be useful15:29
MohammadAGthen have some dbus interface15:30
MohammadAGso you'd pass package name15:30
merlin1991hm I personally would pass the package name from mbarcode to apt-get, but I guess that's a bit risky with the average user15:37
lardmanthat would prevent integration if a better version of HAM is ever created15:45
lardmanI'd be tempted to just pass the required data to whichever app is the mime preference and let it handle it as it sees fit15:45
lardmanthe question is then what should that data be15:45
Jaffalardman++15:50
JaffaIt's not mBarcode's job to provide OCS integration15:50
JaffaIt should take $DATA and launch the MIME handler for .install files.15:50
JaffaIf we want to use this for the SSU then the question of what $DATA is is moot. It *has* to be the URL to a .install file.15:55
JaffaPreferably a bit.lyed one or something15:55
lardmanor sufficient data for mBarcode to be able to generate a local .install file15:56
Jaffa(The SSU .install file adds a new repo, so app://foo works for the general case of maemo.org/downloads and /packages/, but not for the SSU installer)15:56
Jaffalardman: Indeed. But for the CSSU .install file, that's *always* going to be longer than the .install URL15:56
lardmanyes, but you can add some logic to the plugin in mBarcode, so it can handle most things with just a hint15:57
Jaffalardman: Yes, agreed. An apt://<packagename> would be sufficient for that15:57
JaffaAnd then the QRCodes can be auto-generated on maemo.org/downloads/15:57
lardmanthough not necessarily apt, is .install a standard?15:58
JaffaAcutally, proposed format: apt://[<repo-name>]/<package>15:58
Jaffalardman: Only on Maemo15:58
lardmanalso spawning apt-get will bypass HAM or any other app manager which might want to present the user with more info about the package15:58
Jaffalardman: I was suggesting "apt" as the scheme, not that apt-get was launched15:58
lardmanthough I guess that could be handled in the plugin, generate an install file anyway, etc15:58
lardmansure15:58
Jaffalardman: "pkg" would be fine15:59
Jaffalardman: Bah, version of mbarcode in -testing is a lot older than the one in -devel.16:01
lardmanyes16:02
Jaffalardman: Are you going to make me enable -devel? <grumble>16:02
lardmanno, afaiu Dragly was pushing the current version though16:02
lardmanam lacking an N900 atm, so have not had a chance to push it up16:02
JaffaNot happened yet :-(16:02
Jaffahttp://maemo.org/packages/view/mbarcode/16:02
lardmanin which case, yes sorry -devel it is16:02
Jaffapsycho_oreos: Did you ever get to the bottom of your issue with hildon-desktop?  http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=928040#post928040 sounds similar16:05
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psycho_oreosJaffa, no, I guess I might as well look at it again now. In my case I have PR1.3 with stock maemo kernel. I do use some of matan's modified packages but I guess I should probably have a look from another perspective on getting the hildon-desktop to install16:20
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psycho_oreoslol I'm such an ass, MohammadAG you were right, Jaffa thanks but the problem was solved17:25
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MohammadAGpsycho_oreos, hmm?18:03
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* lardman off home, cu all later19:31
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