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| juiceme | Win7Mac, yes, that is worth looking into. | 11:34 |
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| chem|st | warfare: juiceme you got mail | 14:12 |
| chem|st | let me know if you need assisstance | 14:13 |
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| Win7Mac | hi! | 23:02 |
| juiceme | hi! | 23:02 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac o/ | 23:02 |
| Win7Mac | special hi to gerbick! | 23:02 |
| Win7Mac | o/ | 23:02 |
| gerbick | hi guys, sorry for the disappearances - been swamped | 23:02 |
| Win7Mac | just sent Mentalist a reminder-email... | 23:02 |
| gerbick | in fact, working but brought my laptop along | 23:03 |
| juiceme | gerbick, o/ | 23:03 |
| gerbick | Hi juiceme, hi Win7Mac | 23:03 |
| juiceme | how's things states-side? | 23:03 |
| gerbick | Busy, busy, busy... but good. And you guys? | 23:03 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme, hope you've recovered... | 23:03 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, yes, no lasting harm done :) | 23:04 |
| Win7Mac | good to hear | 23:04 |
| juiceme | scratches on my face but that won't make it less beautiful :) | 23:04 |
| Win7Mac | ;) | 23:04 |
| juiceme | gerbick, startts to look like summer. +19 today | 23:05 |
| juiceme | okay, so I'd like to have now a timeframe for the referendum | 23:09 |
| juiceme | can we decide on when to launch it? | 23:09 |
| juiceme | does a referendum fllow the same general timeline as an election, excepting the initial stages of candidate introduction etc. ? | 23:10 |
| Win7Mac | afaik, yes | 23:11 |
| juiceme | the voting period is one week. What happens before that? | 23:12 |
| Win7Mac | Bylaws: "(12) Voting in such referenda will be open to anyone eligible to vote in the council elections. | 23:12 |
| Win7Mac | a) The referendum options must be debated for a minimum of 1 month prior to the referendum. | 23:12 |
| Win7Mac | b) Referendum voting will be open for the same length of time as the council elections." | 23:12 |
| Win7Mac | warong translation, actually it's 4 weeks | 23:13 |
| juiceme | how is the one month calculated? as I see it the debate has been going on for a *long* time now | 23:13 |
| Win7Mac | hm... | 23:14 |
| Win7Mac | a proper announcement would be expected i guess | 23:14 |
| Win7Mac | not just a tmo-thread... | 23:14 |
| Win7Mac | but since the debate is that old... | 23:15 |
| juiceme | yes, it was not announced on the mailing list, just on TMO | 23:15 |
| Win7Mac | right | 23:16 |
| gerbick | juicme, it's 31 here | 23:16 |
| gerbick | okay, referendum; care to explain it to me guys? It's been overlooked it seems and that's not cool | 23:17 |
| Win7Mac | but a fews weeks are fine to mine as long as the ref. finally lifts off and is properly worded | 23:17 |
| juiceme | gerbick, too hot for any physical activity barring swimming :) | 23:17 |
| Win7Mac | gerbick: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93908 | 23:17 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, If I send mail on the list reminding people to check the relevant TMO thread? | 23:18 |
| gerbick | juiceme, it's not even Summer yet. It'll be 40+ here soon | 23:18 |
| gerbick | Please do, Win7Mac | 23:18 |
| gerbick | thanks for the link | 23:18 |
| juiceme | gerbick, today I bicycled 109 km, try to do that in your weather.... | 23:19 |
| Win7Mac | ok, i'll try to put it in simple words again, if you don't mind | 23:19 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, please do :) | 23:19 |
| Win7Mac | substance of the ref. is more important than a few days IMHO... | 23:20 |
| Win7Mac | Simply put, in NOK times, council was a voice for the community, that was it | 23:21 |
| Win7Mac | they had no say for anything that would require NOK Board action... | 23:22 |
| Win7Mac | NOW, with the e.V., there opens an option for Council to finally HVA a say... | 23:22 |
| Win7Mac | *HAVE | 23:23 |
| Win7Mac | but that obviously can't be unlimited | 23:23 |
| Win7Mac | GA is the native "superior force" in any e.V. | 23:23 |
| Win7Mac | some things might be done by council though, but then they need to be clearly defined | 23:24 |
| Win7Mac | tha'S basically all i'm asking for, the bylaws are my work and they have zthis obvious flaw which i left there, aware of the problems, but... | 23:25 |
| gerbick | Doubtful that the powers-that-be would allow the Council to have any more say since they've moved upward to GA. | 23:25 |
| gerbick | The bylaws seem to suppress this level - read: Council has no say in anything | 23:26 |
| Win7Mac | due to the heated discussion back then (and Niel leaving btw.) that was on purpose, not to ruin everything | 23:26 |
| gerbick | eV or not; it seems by design. | 23:26 |
| gerbick | meanwhile, the GA does... what? | 23:26 |
| Win7Mac | but that needs correction | 23:26 |
| gerbick | A lot of them aren't even connected or are far too willing to pass the buck from what I've seen. There needs to be a removal of certain members that are unwilling to do/say anything | 23:27 |
| Win7Mac | I have great respect of almost all members | 23:27 |
| gerbick | I don't. | 23:27 |
| Win7Mac | and basically it's about sharing duty | 23:27 |
| gerbick | I don't respect the people in power that are wagging their finger doing nothing. | 23:27 |
| Win7Mac | almost... ;) | 23:27 |
| Win7Mac | please don't speak in pictures | 23:28 |
| Win7Mac | unsure if i get the right sense... | 23:28 |
| gerbick | And as it stands; I've seen folks during this bank stuff in the US that were happily posting on Twitter their daily operations and other witticisms yet did want to help expedite that process. | 23:28 |
| juiceme | gerbick, you do have a point there, only by getting involved you earn respect. | 23:28 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme, THAT'S the spirit of an E.V.!!! | 23:29 |
| juiceme | exactly | 23:29 |
| Win7Mac | So far, council is responsible for all elections | 23:30 |
| gerbick | As an American that's lived in Germany; it's not the path that I consider worth my time when you say "community" yet your personal issues (real or not) interfere with your duties that you've been shirking this entire time. | 23:30 |
| juiceme | but there's this thing, we do have garage account holders not joining to the e.V, and we need to carter to them too | 23:30 |
| Win7Mac | i mean, that's the only "duty" council has | 23:30 |
| gerbick | anyway, I'll quiet that stuff down; it resolves nothing. | 23:30 |
| Win7Mac | gerbick, I'm with you | 23:31 |
| juiceme | as I see it, there are 2 ways to "fix" the council issue; | 23:31 |
| gerbick | so the referendum; what expansion, contraction or addendum do you see necessary? | 23:32 |
| Win7Mac | limit council responsibility to holding elections and that's it | 23:32 |
| Win7Mac | define that in bylaws | 23:33 |
| juiceme | 1. the council is like now, it is elected by garage users, and can have members that are not e.V members; in this case the power must be limited | 23:33 |
| gerbick | okay, but how does that go against the definition Win7Mac is describing? | 23:33 |
| juiceme | 2. the council is moved to be elected by GA only, and it can have more power | 23:33 |
| Win7Mac | OTOH, if council WANTS to show responsible for other stuf, why not allow them, as long as nobody disagrees? | 23:34 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, are my points 1&2 valid? | 23:34 |
| gerbick | so would you say that the council is a failsafe wherein the GA/eV or whomever else hasn't fixed a situation? | 23:34 |
| juiceme | or have I understood it wrong? | 23:35 |
| Win7Mac | #2 is not really an option IMHO, since it's meant to be community proxy | 23:35 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac I agree | 23:35 |
| Win7Mac | *council is meant... | 23:35 |
| juiceme | I'd like to see council as the contact point that anyone can come to, and raise issues. | 23:36 |
| juiceme | and be responsible of elections | 23:36 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme, I agree | 23:36 |
| Win7Mac | council is most vital group after all... | 23:36 |
| Win7Mac | at least they meet once a week | 23:37 |
| Win7Mac | it's working... ;) | 23:37 |
| juiceme | we try to, more or less. to be available hee in case someone wants to talk | 23:37 |
| juiceme | even as many times it is just idle chatting :) | 23:37 |
| Win7Mac | Basically it's an invitation to council: If you want to have a say in certain aspects, name them and we can discuss it | 23:38 |
| juiceme | yes | 23:38 |
| juiceme | so it boils down to one thing; in the bylaws there's the statement: | 23:39 |
| juiceme | (5) The Board of Directors executes the Council's and General Assembly's rulings. | 23:39 |
| Win7Mac | #2 otherwise limit council responsibilty to holding all elections (and remove the corresponding part in Articles of Association §7 (5) | 23:40 |
| Win7Mac | yes | 23:40 |
| juiceme | yes | 23:40 |
| Win7Mac | yes again ;) | 23:40 |
| juiceme | so the sensible thing is to change this one sentence to (5) The Board of Directors executes the General Assembly's rulings. | 23:41 |
| juiceme | I think §8 is okay | 23:42 |
| Win7Mac | yes | 23:42 |
| Win7Mac | to both | 23:42 |
| Win7Mac | BUT... | 23:42 |
| Win7Mac | the referendum cannot do that, AG has to... | 23:42 |
| juiceme | GA | 23:43 |
| Win7Mac | but, as i said, i trust them, I#m sure they will execute that referendums' wish... | 23:43 |
| Win7Mac | GA | 23:43 |
| Win7Mac | I also would love to see (simply put) a BBBIIIGGG YES for the e.V. in general and have it cleared for once and all, that there's only this one council which is a part of MC e.V. now and for all | 23:45 |
| juiceme | mmh, so basically the referendum is to be held to have a general understanding of te issue, not to decide? And then GA needs to vote on the actual changing of the wording of the Bylaws? | 23:45 |
| Win7Mac | more or less | 23:46 |
| juiceme | is there still something that's on the way of the understanding that we have just one council? | 23:47 |
| Win7Mac | the council election rules also needed slight adjustment which should be accepted too | 23:47 |
| juiceme | can you detail that change? | 23:47 |
| Win7Mac | sorry, that change already been donne | 23:48 |
| juiceme | ah, good :) | 23:48 |
| Win7Mac | basically altered all "1 month" to "4 weeks" | 23:48 |
| juiceme | is that just to make it more exact? | 23:49 |
| Win7Mac | and got rid of that obscure "Nokia Community Manager"... | 23:49 |
| juiceme | wot'? i thought all "nokia" references gone already... | 23:49 |
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| juiceme | Oksanaa, o/ | 23:50 |
| Win7Mac | the 4-week thing was made in order to have better control of the weekday and to shorten the min. time a day or 2 | 23:50 |
| juiceme | okay | 23:50 |
| Win7Mac | All of that has already been done... | 23:50 |
| gerbick | brb guys, need to finish up my day with my team | 23:51 |
| juiceme | gerbick, okay, see you later then. | 23:51 |
| Oksanaa | moin, juiceme, gerbick | 23:51 |
| Win7Mac | But it not been done by only way possible as described but by MC e.V. Founding meeting | 23:51 |
| Win7Mac | council was fully present back then | 23:51 |
| juiceme | true | 23:51 |
| Win7Mac | Hi Oksana! | 23:52 |
| Oksanaa | Hello | 23:52 |
| * Oksanaa is not fully awake yet... | 23:52 | |
| Win7Mac | Please help me understand your reasons for wanting "as many options as possible" incl. "leave everything as is" | 23:53 |
| Win7Mac | Oksana, i want to understand | 23:54 |
| juiceme | Oksanaa, we have been discussing the referendum, have you read the backlog? | 23:55 |
| Oksanaa | If something is possible-plausible, it should be on the table for voters. They should not feel like all the options are evilnot suitable in one way or another. | 23:56 |
| Oksanaa | Sorry, hasn't read the logs yet. | 23:56 |
| juiceme | I fear if there's an option for "just leave everyting as it is" some people might choose this out of laziness to think about it | 23:57 |
| Win7Mac | +1 | 23:58 |
| juiceme | and as it happens, that option is broken, it can lead to problems at a later date, depending on people elected to council | 23:59 |
| Win7Mac | right | 23:59 |
| Oksanaa | Then phrase it on line with other options, so that you would not be able to see it without reading options first? | 23:59 |
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