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| Win7Mac | HI Woody14619!!! | 22:59 |
|---|---|---|
| Win7Mac | :) :) :) | 22:59 |
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| RzR | Tue Sep 2 20:00:20 UTC 2014 | 23:00 |
| RzR | Hi Win7Mac juiceme peterleinchen_ DocScrutinizer05 | 23:00 |
| RzR | 1st let's open the meeting w/ a minute of silence for our beloved neildk | 23:01 |
| Win7Mac | Hi RzR | 23:01 |
| Win7Mac | true | 23:01 |
| peterleinchen_ | YES!!! | 23:01 |
| peterleinchen_ | But he is not ded, nor ill. | 23:01 |
| juiceme | hiya all 0/ | 23:01 |
| peterleinchen_ | Minute is over. | 23:03 |
| peterleinchen_ | So lets talk about Neil ... | 23:04 |
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| juiceme | sixwheeledbeast, hi | 23:04 |
| RzR | too bad he did not talk to all of us before announcing this | 23:04 |
| juiceme | peterleinchen, I do think he made a hasty decision and still hope he reconsiders | 23:04 |
| peterleinchen_ | I am online via mobile, so be gentle/awaiting | 23:04 |
| juiceme | yes | 23:04 |
| peterleinchen_ | yes both are true | 23:05 |
| peterleinchen_ | and i hoped he would join tonight | 23:05 |
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| RzR | he said he will not | 23:06 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | juiceme hi I wasn't highlighted due to nick... | 23:07 |
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| juiceme | okay | 23:07 |
| RzR | so let's start the meeting now ? | 23:11 |
| RzR | who is the chair ? | 23:11 |
| juiceme | peterleinchen_, have you written the MOM for last week? | 23:11 |
| RzR | 1st we said we look at community input | 23:12 |
| juiceme | peterleinchen_ is | 23:12 |
| juiceme | RzR, have you RzRsorted out if there's any relevant input? | 23:12 |
| juiceme | uups | 23:12 |
| RzR | not that much | 23:12 |
| RzR | http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Task:Community_Council/Council_Q2_2014/Agenda | 23:12 |
| peterleinchen_ | Sorry, not yet. Will do so ... | 23:12 |
| RzR | Win7Mac, said we're awesome | 23:13 |
| juiceme | peterleinchen_, np. | 23:13 |
| juiceme | that's good input anyway :) | 23:13 |
| peterleinchen_ | np? | 23:13 |
| RzR | next topic is the one that should be taken w/ caution | 23:13 |
| Win7Mac | :) | 23:13 |
| RzR | peterleinchen_, no problemo amigo | 23:14 |
| peterleinchen_ | okeli dokeli | 23:14 |
| RzR | DocScrutinizer05, DocScrutinizer51 , are you around ? | 23:14 |
| peterleinchen_ | nope | 23:14 |
| peterleinchen_ | he sent mail he will NOT participate | 23:14 |
| peterleinchen_ | maybe sneek in later | 23:15 |
| RzR | ok | 23:15 |
| RzR | then we can use this meeting to listen to Win7Mac for his vision of story | 23:15 |
| peterleinchen_ | I would've liked to have him here | 23:16 |
| peterleinchen_ | to hear both sides | 23:16 |
| RzR | about neil ? | 23:16 |
| peterleinchen_ | but maybe it is better to listen toeach on kts own | 23:16 |
| RzR | yea | 23:16 |
| Win7Mac | my vision of story is in the thread... | 23:16 |
| RzR | is everyone ok to give the main stage to Win7Mac ? | 23:16 |
| Win7Mac | oh... | 23:17 |
| juiceme | the link to what Win7Mac is talking about is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93566 | 23:17 |
| RzR | Win7Mac, your thread is endless and I doubt anyone like to read pages of verbal assault | 23:17 |
| Win7Mac | right, thanks juiceme | 23:17 |
| peterleinchen_ | RzR, yes. | 23:18 |
| juiceme | what I think is if you read what chemist said on http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1438067&postcount=44 it summarizes the thing nicely | 23:18 |
| Win7Mac | you want me to rephrase it in some other words? | 23:18 |
| peterleinchen_ | win7mac, I would like to hear you now w/o assaults | 23:18 |
| peterleinchen_ | yes | 23:18 |
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| peterleinchen_ | Welcome Neil | 23:19 |
| Win7Mac | hey... Niel o/ | 23:19 |
| juiceme | nieldk, hi! | 23:19 |
| nieldk | Was asked to join :) | 23:19 |
| nieldk | hi there | 23:19 |
| Win7Mac | sure... | 23:19 |
| juiceme | was it RzR that asked? (the official hound :) | 23:19 |
| nieldk | ;) no, win7mac kindly asked | 23:20 |
| juiceme | ok | 23:20 |
| RzR | hi nieldk | 23:20 |
| * chem|st is finally having dinner but is reading | 23:20 | |
| juiceme | chem|st, hi | 23:20 |
| RzR | so everyone is there bug DocScrutinizer05 ? | 23:20 |
| Win7Mac | hi chem|st! | 23:21 |
| nieldk | DocScrutinizer05 announced he wouldnt join | 23:21 |
| peterleinchen_ | nieldk, would you mind to explain your decision? | 23:22 |
| peterleinchen_ | a bit more detailed? | 23:22 |
| nieldk | Yes, | 23:22 |
| juiceme | 4 councillors present and announced | 23:22 |
| RzR | peterleinchen_, he already done in public | 23:22 |
| nieldk | No problem, I can repeat | 23:22 |
| juiceme | please | 23:22 |
| RzR | :) | 23:22 |
| peterleinchen_ | no need to repeat. I read! | 23:23 |
| peterleinchen_ | but in lther words maybe... | 23:23 |
| nieldk | I have all respect for the voting system, and that Doc was elected - as well as asked to join | 23:23 |
| nieldk | But, he is sabotaging how we can proceed | 23:23 |
| nieldk | and unfortunately it seems he wont listen to common sense | 23:23 |
| nieldk | That turned into personal attacks against win7mac, who is actually doing a LOT of work, to proceed in the best way | 23:24 |
| juiceme | nieldk, council is 5 persons for this reason. decisions need not be unanimouns, enough to be majority | 23:24 |
| juiceme | yes | 23:24 |
| RzR | nieldk, this is does not explain why you left | 23:25 |
| RzR | nieldk, if you think majority decide , why not trying to convince us | 23:25 |
| nieldk | Yes, I believe it does, when council and board work is being sabotaged like that, I feel it is impossible to get any further | 23:26 |
| RzR | so we should also give up ? | 23:26 |
| RzR | if we follow your logic | 23:26 |
| nieldk | Like I stated, in a professional company, a person like that would have been dismissed | 23:26 |
| RzR | well i have nothing personal against you doc or anyone | 23:27 |
| RzR | but this is odd | 23:27 |
| nieldk | I think the best way to raise awareness on this and how serious it is for our community, is to bring it to attention, in a way people understand | 23:27 |
| RzR | nieldk, a professional company is not tmo :) | 23:27 |
| RzR | like self sacrifice ... | 23:27 |
| nieldk | and also, to show strong appreciation for the work the rest of the council and board is trying to do | 23:27 |
| chem|st | RzR: tmo is not maemo.org or HiFo | 23:27 |
| RzR | chem|st, true | 23:28 |
| juiceme | nieldk, as far as I know you cannot dismiss anyone from council or board except in very dire situations, dislike of behaviour unfortunately dose not count :) | 23:28 |
| nieldk | eV is indeed a professional company . or similar, there are rules that needs to be adhered to | 23:28 |
| chem|st | same is HiFo | 23:28 |
| nieldk | yes | 23:29 |
| RzR | same as neo900 | 23:29 |
| nieldk | makes me worry, if doc doesnt get the more legal aspects of being a registered foundation, or verein | 23:29 |
| nieldk | but thats neo900's problem | 23:29 |
| juiceme | the rules of MCeV say that dismissal is possible when faced with criminal behaviour if I understood correctly | 23:30 |
| RzR | did not happend that time yet , did it ? | 23:30 |
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| juiceme | Sicelo, hi | 23:30 |
| Sicelo | hey :) | 23:30 |
| chem|st | juiceme: also if not in line with the statutes | 23:30 |
| Win7Mac | maybe Niel reconsiders if you (all) convince Doc to step down instead? - That would resolve all conflicts instantly... | 23:31 |
| juiceme | chem|st, I'll have to check what that means. | 23:31 |
| RzR | nieldk, legal consideration should come in very high level ... | 23:31 |
| nieldk | that would, for me, be a solution. It wont stop doc from writing posts, but, it will not be as a member of board or council | 23:31 |
| RzR | but community matters too | 23:32 |
| nieldk | we (and the board) needs to be a strong union, otherise this is never going to work | 23:32 |
| nieldk | of course community matters | 23:32 |
| juiceme | yes, I feel very uncomfortable going to that, as votes need to be honoured | 23:32 |
| chem|st | juiceme: if someone tries to prevent the eV from doing their (written in the bylaws) obligation | 23:32 |
| Woody14619 | juiceme: kicking someone after they broke the law is too late. The damage is done by that time. It's a good show of faith, but the entity is still legally responsible for the damage. | 23:33 |
| RzR | peterleinchen_, are you understanding this situation ? I am not | 23:33 |
| nieldk | Woody1419: correct | 23:33 |
| peterleinchen_ | rzr, not really | 23:33 |
| chem|st | RzR: peterleinchen_ ask questions please | 23:34 |
| nieldk | Woody14619 | 23:34 |
| nieldk | Woody14619: which is another reason, why this is not acceptabel | 23:34 |
| nieldk | we are all responsible, for actions that Doc may do in anger | 23:34 |
| RzR | yea doc is not the most diplomatic person I met but I respect him ... | 23:35 |
| Woody14619 | Respect is not at issue. Trust is. | 23:35 |
| chem|st | +1 | 23:36 |
| Win7Mac | true | 23:36 |
| RzR | I have no reason to trust or not trust anyone yet | 23:36 |
| nieldk | Let me extend a bit, I think Doc is correct in wanting the council to be the speach organ for the community, towards board, but it is not deciding what the board should accept or do (eV or HiFo), the board cant legally 100% function like that | 23:36 |
| chem|st | I can live with being called a liar for the better half of a year, but I stop trusting that person | 23:36 |
| RzR | the only trust I have is into community somehow | 23:36 |
| nieldk | I respect Doc as well, he is a very vaulable asset | 23:36 |
| nieldk | but the damage he is doing is to bad to make up for that | 23:37 |
| nieldk | (in my opinion) | 23:37 |
| Win7Mac | IMHO too, by far | 23:37 |
| RzR | so cant we proceed changes by small iteration ? | 23:38 |
| chem|st | RzR: you wont have much to change with him around | 23:38 |
| RzR | this is not factual yet | 23:39 |
| Win7Mac | AND Doc had the chance to have his say during establishing period in a constructive manner, but simply refused, said not my business... | 23:39 |
| RzR | just make a proposition to council | 23:39 |
| Woody14619 | There are 3 points of contention: (legal) ownership/liability, (technical) operation, and (community) input and direction. Splitting liability from operation is the issue. | 23:40 |
| RzR | forget about him for a sec, and see what the council can decide | 23:40 |
| Win7Mac | Woody14619 is spot on | 23:41 |
| chem|st | RzR: you can decide to support and empower the MCeV, or not to... | 23:41 |
| Win7Mac | ok RzR | 23:41 |
| Woody14619 | Council can be/do/say whatever it likes. It answers to the community. Operations/ownership should have some governance from the community, but legally it answers to the law of the land it is in. | 23:41 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, that is true. and as far as I understand the compability-isuues were discussed in the foremative phase, s well as all the actions and consequences to follow. | 23:42 |
| chem|st | yes | 23:43 |
| juiceme | ont thing where this all hinges is the membership position | 23:43 |
| chem|st | the only issue we have is that general assembly can change council election rules, that's it | 23:43 |
| chem|st | juiceme: please elaborate | 23:44 |
| juiceme | what Doc is doing, is he is advocating that the current Garage membership is where Council derives its mandate, and he is trying to prevent that from changing | 23:44 |
| chem|st | that does not change | 23:44 |
| Win7Mac | exactly, that does not change! | 23:45 |
| juiceme | yes, but for some reason that escapes me he feels very strngly about it | 23:45 |
| Win7Mac | his problem is more that General meeting has similar rights... | 23:45 |
| Win7Mac | i assume | 23:46 |
| nieldk | I guess Doc will have to elaborate on that part | 23:46 |
| Woody14619 | Sorry, I've been out of the loop. Does e.V. incorporate Council as part of it? | 23:46 |
| Win7Mac | sure it does | 23:46 |
| RzR | to what I understood DocScrutinizer05 consider ev as cashier and nothing more | 23:46 |
| Woody14619 | Does it need to? | 23:46 |
| chem|st | no | 23:46 |
| Win7Mac | its 1 of 3 bodies: board, council, general meeting | 23:46 |
| Woody14619 | RzR: That has been his understanding of HiFo as well, but it's frankly wrong. | 23:46 |
| Win7Mac | exactly | 23:47 |
| RzR | well you're position are biased | 23:47 |
| Win7Mac | Board is the operator of maemo.org | 23:47 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac and me setup the bylaws and the structure in a way that basically nothing changes for garage-users and council | 23:48 |
| Win7Mac | , legally | 23:48 |
| Woody14619 | Win7Mac: Would it be possible to remove Council from the e.V. entierly? Here's why I ask: Nokia had nothing in it's laws about Council. It was not beholden to Council. | 23:48 |
| nieldk | the general meeting is actually the deciding organ, in most aspects, thats where for example board members can be dismissed, regulations discarded etc, if decided by 2/3 of the general meeting (to my knowledge) | 23:48 |
| Win7Mac | yes, possible | 23:48 |
| Woody14619 | Rzr: My position is based on fact and law. Nothing more, nothing less. | 23:48 |
| nieldk | Nokia wouldnt communicate with Council at all,becaise it is not the legal representative | 23:49 |
| Win7Mac | only board + general meeting required | 23:49 |
| chem|st | Woody14619: council has no direct power in the eV | 23:49 |
| Woody14619 | Rzr: A cashier can't hold a trade mark. A Casheer can't negotiate with a company to obtain equipment and rights to operate it. | 23:49 |
| Woody14619 | Rzr: A casheer can't be sued for actions of a third party acting on equipment they legally own and operate. | 23:49 |
| nieldk | Woody14619, exactly, the eV board is not merely a cashier. It holds also a cashier function, yes | 23:50 |
| RzR | I can agrea on this point | 23:51 |
| * peterleinchen_ also | 23:51 | |
| chem|st | and that is what all need to understand, the MCeV will hold all rights AND responsibilities regarding maemo.org - its funding, maintenance, legal terms, liabilities - not council | 23:51 |
| nieldk | I once posted what an eV is, and to what it needs to regulate, regarding German authoritives etc, I recommmend all do read that | 23:51 |
| Woody14619 | Rzr: Even if it were "just a casheer". If someone on Council decided they should fund something illegal in another country (say to export encryption software), who would take the role of "just casheer", knowing they could be held liable for that action with having no say in it? | 23:51 |
| RzR | right | 23:52 |
| Woody14619 | That's the issue at hand. Separating legal responsability from control is non-advisable. | 23:52 |
| juiceme | agreed | 23:53 |
| RzR | but he said any changes of Council should go by a referendum | 23:53 |
| RzR | can you comment on this | 23:53 |
| RzR | ? | 23:53 |
| peterleinchen_ | Sounds reasonable | 23:53 |
| Win7Mac | he said MANY wrong things... | 23:53 |
| RzR | how wrong it this ? | 23:53 |
| RzR | can you please elaborate | 23:54 |
| Win7Mac | but on this agree, I even suggested it in post #1! | 23:54 |
| RzR | ok | 23:54 |
| Woody14619 | My take: Remove Council from the e.V. It's not needed. Board + General Council is enough to operate. Board can take input from Council, and Council can organize itself in any way it likes. | 23:54 |
| nieldk | HiFo holds exactly the same responsibilities. But, I believe some didnt realize that | 23:54 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, wasn't it so that council was decided to be kept as it is so that there'd be "continuity of tradition", so that we can operate from familiar baseline | 23:54 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme, yes | 23:55 |
| juiceme | and also, in the formative meeting board was chosen from council for that exact reason | 23:55 |
| RzR | juiceme, yea and we can also add a "blank" vote on next election | 23:55 |
| chem|st | that brings up the next issue, liabilities of non-members in key positions - sysops, maintainers, webdevelopers etc are no-go-land, also giving council access to assets if council is outside of MCeV is a liability I do not want to share | 23:55 |
| RzR | if community decide there is no need for council it will just disapear | 23:56 |
| Woody14619 | juiceme: That was the reasoning for HiFo. Those on Council push for that because they want their voice heard. Understandable. But separating the two bodies is too problematic. | 23:56 |
| RzR | not that I want to destroy it | 23:56 |
| Win7Mac | board was chosen (elected) by 1st general assembly | 23:56 |
| RzR | but the purpose is to reflect community pov | 23:56 |
| Woody14619 | I see no reason Council can't continue to do that while not being part of the e.V. legally. | 23:56 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st, +1! | 23:57 |
| Woody14619 | But then people will scream "power grab", that the Board is trying to take control of everything. | 23:57 |
| chem|st | RzR: <70 votes by a community with 5digits member-base? that is not even close to community POV | 23:57 |
| nieldk | I dont mind keeping the council, but it would be more an organ to communicate member opinions to board, as a member organ | 23:57 |
| Woody14619 | (Just as they did with HiFo, despite there being a clear and operational override) | 23:57 |
| juiceme | chem|st, how do you mean no-go-land, we probably have language misunderstanding here? | 23:57 |
| juiceme | Woody14619, this power grab argument is what Doc is arguing | 23:58 |
| chem|st | juiceme: anyone outside the eV wont get access to eV assets without proper restricitons | 23:58 |
| RzR | chem|st, so let's introduce a blank vote , next time and we'll if the problem is the pple or just if the community is just gone | 23:58 |
| Win7Mac | RzR, ? | 23:59 |
| Woody14619 | juiceme: Exactly. Note that he wants power, but wants nothing to do with the legal responsability (HiFo/e.V, etc.) | 23:59 |
| juiceme | chem|st, that is only natural, so you mean that sysops etc. need to be members. I think that goes without saying | 23:59 |
| peterleinchen_ | rzr, 'blank volte'? | 23:59 |
| chem|st | RzR: that includes blanks already | 23:59 |
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