IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Tuesday, 2014-03-11

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chem|stI just received note that HiFoeV's Articles of Incorporation have been validated by a courtworker and are thereby fit for application.11:15
sixwheeledbeastyay19:34
DocScrutinizer51I'm traveling and only available via GPRS, so response times and even connectivity might be flawed21:13
DocScrutinizer51also announcing that no more donations for maemo will get accepted on my PP acct21:15
DocScrutinizer51I hope HiFo will sort theirs so anybody considering donating for maemo whatever (except specific general techstaff support which seems not possible) should use HiFo acct for that21:17
juicemeo/21:51
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DocScrutinizer51hi juiceme ! could you try to follow up on that HiFo defines original council as their consulting and deciding entity? I'm on travel and no good connectivity21:59
juicemehi22:00
juicemeI certainly hope we reach a common understanding here.22:00
Win7Machi22:01
juicemehi!22:02
DocScrutinizer51who wouldn't - despipe other rumor I'm not averse in any way against that e.V.22:02
DocScrutinizer51despite22:02
Win7Macthat sounds good! :)22:03
DocScrutinizer51heck, it seems I came up with the suggestion22:03
sixwheeledbeasto/22:03
juicemehi22:03
Win7Macyou could join the kickoff meeting, stay passive member and candidate for council22:03
Win7Macor become regular member, as you like22:04
Win7Macbut lets hear your suggestion22:04
chem|sto/22:05
Win7Maco/ chem|st + sixwheeledbeast22:05
juicemewell, there's been a lot of heated discussion lately but we should be able to resolve it all now, righrt?22:06
Win7Macsure22:06
chem|stjuiceme: there was no discussion I know of at least none regarding the founding of the eV22:07
juicemeyes22:07
juicemeso, how do we organize this now, as this is the kickoff meeting do we need to handle something differently?22:08
DocScrutinizer51this is what?22:09
chem|stjuiceme: no kickoff without 7 peopel of which 3 are willing to become director and 5 are willing to become council22:09
juicemeI thought that was already settled, that there'd be enough candidates.22:09
chem|stjuiceme: we are one short and currently 3 are missing22:10
DocScrutinizer51become council?22:10
juicemeas nieldk vlounteered, and I kind of got the idea that there were others also...22:10
chem|stjuiceme: then start counting, I will find the papers22:11
DocScrutinizer51there already exst the one and only council, and there are binding rules how it gets established and what it is responsible for22:12
chem|stok Doc how about you get on with it then?22:12
chem|stplease elaborate!22:12
DocScrutinizer51eh?22:13
Win7Macsorry, forgot to post accordingly... kickoff-meeting will be postponed until friday or next week22:13
juicemeWin7Mac, okay22:13
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: we do not touch your fucking council... how often do we need to say that?22:14
DocScrutinizer51thanks for that outburst22:14
chem|styw22:15
DocScrutinizer51it shows off something22:15
chem|stwhat does it show? you act like estel or dave constantly repeating the same thing22:15
juicemewhat I think is there's some misunderstanding of terms, what is council and what is board22:16
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chem|stit was told several times now that the council will be elected like it should and it stays what it is, just to make you happy22:16
chem|stjuiceme: there is some complete misunderstanding of the concept of an association22:17
DocScrutinizer51sorry, the last maybe 30 posts make no sense to me, they sound completely contradicting each other22:17
juicemechem|st, I think it is possible, since there's talk of people willing to become council, sinde we already have council, so election is needed.22:18
DocScrutinizer51exactly22:19
Win7MacDocScrutinizer05, if you reject the "invitation" to candidate for council, we can't help you22:20
chem|stjuiceme: to found the association we need to vote on A council, the founders need to do that, later after we founded normal elections will take place22:20
DocScrutinizer51mhm22:20
Win7Macit's a valid temporary solution, next regular elections will be held as sonn as appropriate22:20
chem|stso how would you like to have it?22:20
DocScrutinizer51mhm22:21
juicemeI am not familiar with procedures, so I need to take your word on it :)22:21
DocScrutinizer51saorry, lags22:21
chem|stjuiceme: well the procedures are only for the founding, that is exactly reflected word by word in the bylaws22:22
juicemeok22:22
chem|stafter that "normal" election rules apply22:22
DocScrutinizer51juiceme: the procedures for maemo council are 'written in stone' and easy to find22:22
Win7MacDocScrutinizer05, simply accept and all is good, only two more needed then, which we will vote for in the kickoff meeting22:22
Win7Machttp://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process22:23
Win7Machas been adopted22:23
chem|stthat way the current council would stay the same and get enhanced by 2 silent followers for the time being22:23
Win7Macalready wentioned all this last week22:23
chem|stand the week before22:24
Win7Macand on tmo22:24
chem|stand on ML22:24
DocScrutinizer51I'm accepting what exactly? that I as maemo council member become a member of the new hifo_interim_council? and that no other than the current council members can enter maemo council until next regular elections? I have no issues with that22:25
juicemeyes, that is as I have understood it22:25
chem|stno other does not work, the interim as you call it has 5 members22:25
DocScrutinizer51that's a ko criterion22:26
juicemethe currcent council stays as is, and there will exist the interim council aside it22:26
chem|stwhy22:26
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: elaborate22:26
DocScrutinizer51maemo council members get elected22:26
chem|stok again for the 6 year old... maemo council is untouched till the next election22:27
DocScrutinizer51so why do you sy "no unelected  membersw entering maemo council" doesn't work?22:28
DocScrutinizer51for the 90 year old22:28
juicemethat is why I said there is confusion of terminology.22:30
DocScrutinizer51btw you say maemo council rules got adopted, however you don't allow perfectly legit 3 member maemo council22:30
Win7Macno, all founders will vote for 5 councilors and as there will be only 5, all are elected22:30
Win7Mactrue22:31
Win7Macwe opted for 5 instead22:31
chem|stwe are bound by law, if this makes another referendum necessary so be it for now it is like that22:31
DocScrutinizer51so you redefinesd rules durtion22:32
DocScrutinizer51damn22:32
DocScrutinizer51so you redefinesd rules during adoption22:32
juicemeas a sidenote, how many members do we ndd on the kickoffmeeting to vote, to make it by the book? is there a minimum number of founders? (since it seems not many want/can get to meetings...)22:32
Win7Macjuiceme: 722:32
chem|stwe are defining new rules for an association, we are bound by rules, we did not touch anything and did not want to call a referendum as that takes 5 weeks, so we decided to go with 2 councils till the next elections22:33
DocScrutinizer51so how am I involved?22:33
chem|stwould have been nice to have the current counil also be part of the eV council22:33
juicemewhat will the roles of the councils be, so there's no clashing (even as the interim council is council + 2 extra)22:34
juicemeso there's actually one council inside the other22:34
chem|stsame as council No122:34
DocScrutinizer51future maemo councils also may be 3 only22:34
juicemeyes, this is what I am asking, if the interim council can be the effective council +222:35
chem|stas we would need to have re-elections to have them become one body22:35
DocScrutinizer51according to binding rules for mc22:35
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: well that has to be changed22:35
Win7Macok, wait. probably it is ok to define a council of 3 for the interim time22:35
DocScrutinizer51yo can't change this, unless you again run a referendum22:35
Win7Macor even forever, set in the bylaws, if thats the only obstacle22:35
chem|stWin7Mac: we can define a at least 3 forever but that is not what the idea was22:35
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: so you'd like to change nothing right?22:36
Win7Macbut we thought it'd be a good idea to have a council of 522:36
DocScrutinizer51I mustn't change anything. community does22:36
juicemecouncil of 3 is more agile, I guess that why it was originally decreed to be so22:37
DocScrutinizer51the rule is so we rather have a mc of three than no mc at all22:37
DocScrutinizer51there been months of public discussion about those rules22:38
Win7Macthe concern was more on the board-side to fill positions thats why we lowered that from 5-7 to 322:39
DocScrutinizer51and iirc 3 referenda22:39
Win7Macwant a referendum for that too?22:39
chem|stthe board in acordance with the outgoing council can decide that there be only 3 councilors after 8weeks22:39
DocScrutinizer51it's not about what anybodz but community *wants*22:39
chem|stcan we do a little game?22:40
DocScrutinizer51sorry, afk22:40
Win7Macafaik, community never decided to have a board of 5-7, or?22:40
juicemeDocScrutinizer51, it has to be the council that decides wht the community wants (at least until a vote on any topic)22:41
juicemesince it is impossible to vote on any details22:41
chem|stimagine all contracts are signed, servers are owned by the eV - techstaff are member of the eV we have 30 members more or less active within the association, and a council of 3 people voted by the passiv members22:41
chem|strules of election have been applied to council etc22:42
juicemeyes?22:43
chem|stnow imagine, the board is fed and 50% of techstaff too a motion to close maemo is filed22:43
chem|stthe wip-vote on this has the council but they are 2 people short22:44
chem|stso this is how a proper association works, the same applies actually for the Hildon Foundation but noone ever cared of joining the foundation officially as the council never defined how to join it22:45
Win7Macwell, we might opt for a council of at least 3 fixed in th bylaws, I have no problem with that22:46
chem|stI have a problem with that, either we have it like now, or 5 fixed but not 3 fixed. where is the deal? the rules say if there are no 5 councilors in the second attempt board and council decides how to proceed22:48
chem|stI don't know if the feeling of an eV is too much... seems noone gets that the eV is the community22:49
DocScrutinizer51next mc will get voted by the evry same rules written under same URL like past one. Either any other entity accepts those rules and MC resulting from them a their own body, or the the two entites will never be identical22:49
Win7Macit may be more practical. Additionally, if it helps legitimating the "new" council - I'm totally fine22:50
chem|stWin7Mac: I thought that is what we are not allowed to do?!22:51
juicemeis there some deep difference between a council of 5 and a council of 3, after all as things currently are it is difficult to get enough people intrested to volunteer.22:51
Win7Macwe can choose any number for council members22:51
chem|stwell never mind, elections are in the association rules and can be rewritten without filing at court22:51
chem|stWin7Mac: then why did you change that in the first place22:52
Win7Macchem|st: because http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1411396&postcount=6522:54
juicemewithout being an expert in german law for associations (or any legal stuff at all) I am fairly sure we can change the numbers around at this point.22:54
Win7Macjuiceme, yes22:55
chem|stWin7Mac:  we need to work on our communication, I though we are forced to write down a fixed number22:55
juicemeWin7Mac, in the posting there's no reasoning _why_ specifically 5 in council and 3 in board :)22:55
chem|stjuiceme: yeah thanks I do not find it either22:56
chem|stWin7Mac: I asked you if we can have it as a "at least 3"22:56
DocScrutinizer51when rules of eV and MC rules are onehundred percent identical then MC can become eV council and no issues at all, we had exactly same issue with HiFo council22:56
Win7Macchem|st, sorry then that must have been a misunderstanding at some point22:57
Win7Macit would be no problem at all to leave everything in that regard to what we have today22:58
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: the eV will replace the whole structure in the end, if you want to work on that do so... from the looks of now we are again in a misunderstanding, we can apply the rules as-is for now and nothing changes22:58
DocScrutinizer51last time HiFo adapted their bylaws and MC rulees seen minimal corrections confirmed by referendum22:58
chem|stas that is clear now, anything else?22:59
juicemethat's propably the most pressing point for now23:01
Win7MacDocScrutinizer05, bylaws get adopted accordingly. Will you be happy camper, council-candidate and founder that signs the bylaws then?23:02
Win7Mac*a23:02
DocScrutinizer51neither HiFo nor eV nor even MC itself can redefine what's MC. MC however can start a referemdum on any  modified rules23:03
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: come to the point23:03
DocScrutinizer51Win7Mac: sure, why not. when the rules are identical then no problem with me at all23:03
DocScrutinizer51when eV decides to accept MC as their council, why should council be averse?23:04
juicemeI agree, that haas been my understanding all along.23:05
chem|stI'm out, later23:06
juicemeokay, see ya23:07
juicemeunless there's aob, I'll pass out also23:08
DocScrutinizer51for HiFo it took enormous effort and changes in MC rules and in HiFo bylaws to finally make both enties one unified council. For an eV you should probably adopt the MC rules verbatim to avoid same trouble coming up again23:13
DocScrutinizer51by adopting the rules verbatim, the eV council *is* the MC23:14
DocScrutinizer51except for inaugural which needs MC somehow become eV council, by whatever signature under a agreement23:15
DocScrutinizer51or eV bylaws outright stating that the current MC will be the inaugural eV council, until next election which ahppens according to the unified eV/MC rules23:17
Win7Macwell, the procedure is not exactly like that. Formally, we are not excepting an existing group outside of the e.V., council will be voted for, just like it's done with the directors. elections are a requirement here23:26
Win7Macbut as long as it's the same people, there's no dissent23:26
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