IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Tuesday, 2014-02-04

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juicemehi o/22:01
chem|sto/22:01
chem|stno reply from cybette via email, stskeeps was on fosdem no reply either22:02
chem|stjuiceme: are you up to speed with the e.V. proposals?22:02
juicemewell, I have rear up the proposals from win7mac22:03
chem|stwhat of those would you like to see most and why?22:03
Win7MacHi o/22:03
chem|stboard would like to get going on with this topic asap22:04
chem|stWin7Mac: o/22:04
juicemeOn first thought I was against the proposal that there'd be a small fee for active community members but then again, it _does_ kind of make sense...22:04
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: pingpong22:04
Win7Macjust added a post: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1410964#post141096422:04
chem|stjuiceme: that fee thing is bogus22:04
chem|stthat is up to us not forced by law22:04
juicemewell, if it's small enough ~5eur/y22:04
DocScrutinizer05moin22:05
Win7Macwell, it could apply for active members, but not for community22:05
DocScrutinizer05Sorry I'm still not feeling like there was anything I could contribute. Consider me diseased22:05
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: hehe worked^^22:05
juicemeI see nothing against it, and it might enchance up sense of community22:05
chem|stjuiceme: for me that part of doc questioning why we need hifo made me think22:06
juicemethe idea that if you are part of active community you can participate in council is good22:06
chem|stjuiceme: that is the same as now22:06
juicemewell, there needs to be some legal entitiy, but I am not really fleshed po in these mattes22:06
chem|stso you did not quiet understand, let me explain22:07
juicemeokay22:07
chem|stby law:22:07
chem|stan e.V. needs a board of directors, that could be one person but that is nothing what we want or think is good22:08
chem|stand it needs ordinary members to vote upon things, that is at least 3 people22:08
Win7Macfor board, nothing much change, same dutys/resposibilities22:08
juicemeyes22:09
chem|stbasically paperwork handling funds and contracts22:09
Win7Macright22:09
chem|stand provide an office address and contact for authorities22:09
Win7Macexactly22:09
Win7Macnad thats about it22:09
Win7Mac...for board22:10
chem|stnow we have one problem, we had the community vote upon the hifo board which was ok but is actually clustering at a point it is not needed22:10
DocScrutinizer05just one note: I don't appreciate the idea to abolish council, nor the plan to boost it to a few hundred people. My God, the meetings would become unbearable, and council never would be able to find any decision22:11
Win7Maca new council is no problem at all22:11
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: that was never intended, that was part of the brainstorming and is off the table22:11
juicemeI kind of think it would not be hundreds of people, when you look into the votig statistics22:12
chem|stjuiceme: we are talking council and that stays 5!22:12
juicemewhat I think, active contributors would number some tens at max22:12
juicemeokay, so what about the other proposals in the posting by Win7Mac22:13
chem|stso default ordinary members would be council+board22:13
chem|stjuiceme: he wanted to ask the community on input... what I'd like to do is ask for input on one specific proposal and how to change that to fit us instead of giving 4 options which all are unfit yet22:14
chem|stso let me further elaborate22:15
juicemeplease do so :)22:15
chem|stnow we would have the extraordinary members - community with XXXkarma and so on vote upon council22:15
chem|stthen have council vote upon board22:16
Win7Macwhat?22:17
chem|stleft out in this yet is the maemo staff, which should also be part of the ordinary membership22:17
chem|stWin7Mac: pardon!22:17
chem|stWin7Mac: that is exactly what I told you 4 days ago, don't what me22:17
juicemewell, I agree that techstaff is toally orthogonal on this, no need to be on the same organization chart22:18
chem|stand finally becoming an ordinary member:22:18
chem|stis forced by being voted into council22:18
chem|stis requested for techstaff22:18
chem|stis a requirement to become board member22:19
chem|stcan be requested by any community member with reason22:19
chem|stlittle explanation on why board is no more voted on by whole community but just by council:22:20
chem|stthe board of an eV has A some requirements like EU citizenship plus we should reduce the fluctuation on the board - it does not need a new chair/secretary/treasurer or even office address every year, if the people are happy in that position and we are happy with them leave them there...22:21
* chainsawbike agrees22:22
juicemeThe board is the organ that has the financial/legal responsibility, yes?22:23
Win7Macjuiceme, yes22:23
chem|stjuiceme: to have sysops and techstaff within the e.V. as members is a legal attempt - as they are working on a record unlike now22:23
chem|stjuiceme: yes and it reports directly to the ordinary members22:23
chem|stchainsawbike: any input/ideas/questions?22:24
chem|stcahnging board and e.V. address needs to be filed at court and needs a notary to sign == fees22:25
juicemewell it takes some digesting but I think you are on the right track here22:25
DocScrutinizer05++22:25
chem|stjuiceme: you are the one needing to write it in minutes^^22:26
chem|st:D22:26
chainsawbikechem|st, other than avoid a fee to prevent excluding those who cannot easily make international payments no22:26
chem|stit is the kde proposal in some way adapted22:26
juicemechem|st, ya, I'll be writing them :)22:27
chem|stchainsawbike: when all this goes through, there is a list of accounts I need to setup... one will be a bitcoin exchange-account...22:27
chem|stand as we are all about free and opensource why not free and opensource money?22:28
juicemeregarding the fee, even as it is not legal requirement I still think it is a good idea.22:28
juicemeafter all, many people contribute without any pressure in any case...22:28
chem|stjuiceme: true, that will hold off people joining for fun22:29
chem|stor requesting22:29
juicemeyse, it will strengthen the sense of community22:29
DocScrutinizer05which is the whole point in that for any e.V22:29
chem|stin kde you need someone from internal to support your request to get even the possibility to apply22:30
DocScrutinizer05and almost every e.V. bylaws know exceptions from mandatory fee for special cases. Usually some instance in e.V. orga decides on fee exemption22:30
juicemethat is pretty exclusive, i dont' think that is necessary22:30
chem|stgreenpeace had years ago membership fees variable, anything +5DM22:31
juicemei think that is a good way to go, some mnimum yearly fee, that you can add up to if you want to support more22:31
juicemebut no priviliges to be bought, either.22:32
chem|st10eur/a sounds doable for anyone, bylaws can hold an paragraph about requesting exemption at the office22:32
chem|stjuiceme: no ordinary members without being council are members without voting rights22:33
chem|stat least that is what I thought may be a good deal22:33
juicemeyes22:33
chem|stif there will be more ordinary members than council they could just rule the place and make council obsolete22:34
juicememmmhh, yes.22:34
chem|stso lets call it honorary members (is that the correct word?)22:35
juicemeand council is voted on yearly basisi?22:35
chem|st6month like now22:35
juicemewould it be sized 5 persons?22:35
chem|stordinary members are council+board, honorary are all others22:35
chem|styes 522:36
juicemewhat's the role of honorary members?22:36
chem|st5 council, 3 board chair+office, treasurer and secretary of defence ehrm of affairs22:37
DocScrutinizer05sidenote: e.V. or anybody can't abolish council (neither HiFo council nor maemo council), nor the HiFo entity. So you have to integrate what's already existing, into any new e.V.22:37
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: yeah thats why it stays exactly that way22:37
DocScrutinizer05:nod:22:37
chem|stjuiceme: honorary are requested memberships and staff22:38
chem|stwithout voting powers22:38
chem|st(was looking for that word 4 days ago...)22:38
juicemeokay, as executive officers22:38
DocScrutinizer05otoh nothing says the e.V. board has to be identical with HiFo board22:38
chem|stexecutive officers?22:38
juicemeI mean, without voting powers, but being assigned with a task22:39
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: the only thing I was worried is: can we disolve like this without the need to have the whole community vote upon it?22:39
juicemesupport, councel,22:39
DocScrutinizer05once everything is set up, a community referendum could unify e.V and old HiFo entity (just like we did with maemo and HiFo council)22:40
chem|stjuiceme: not necessarily, hmembers might be completely free of tasks within the eV22:40
juicemewhat does the current bylaws say about changing form of the foundation?22:40
DocScrutinizer05you can't22:41
juicemechem|st, okay, but what is their role, responsibility then?22:41
chem|stwhat we can do is we can give the money to e.V. and dissolve...22:41
chem|st^^22:41
chem|stjuiceme: paying yearly fee22:42
DocScrutinizer05I don't know, maybe it's possible, yes22:42
chem|stan e.V. is like a soccer club22:42
juicemeDocScrutinizer05, so there is only one way, to break up completely and then reform as something different...22:42
chem|styou can become member without playing soccer at all22:42
chem|stjuiceme: well we go the referendum way, enough sane people there to vote upon it22:43
chem|stas soon as this is done I/win7 can file papers with the notary22:43
juicemevoting would be safest, then there's no backsaying to it later22:44
DocScrutinizer05I doubt a legal entity like HiFo can simply dissolve22:44
DocScrutinizer05prolly not according to PA laws22:44
chem|stif all tax papers are filed and taxes payed you may seize22:44
DocScrutinizer05which would void any contracts22:45
chem|stWin7Mac: everything clear so far or do you want to change/discuss this further now?22:45
juicemedoes the HiFo dissolving need a lawyer/notary to act on it, will it be costly?22:45
chem|stjuiceme: might cost a few bucks but not like 2k22:45
DocScrutinizer05HiFo cannot dissolve22:46
DocScrutinizer05unless you want to negotiate new contracts everywhere22:46
chem|steverywhere? there is only iphh...22:47
juicemehm, that so?22:47
DocScrutinizer05ok, so contract with Nokia is already off the table completely then, by now?22:47
DocScrutinizer05vBulletin22:48
DocScrutinizer05?22:48
DocScrutinizer05tmo ownership?22:48
chem|stno, the contract has a paragraph about this fitting our needs, we just need to make Nokia aware officially but they cannot deny22:48
chem|stvbulleting is in my posession22:48
DocScrutinizer05good22:48
Win7Macsorry, was afk22:48
chem|stand that cannot be changed22:49
DocScrutinizer05see how that simplifies things?22:49
Win7MacHiFo can transfer all of its assets22:49
chem|stwe recognized it in the process22:49
chem|stwas actually not my intention but we learned that ownership of that license can only be changed once22:50
DocScrutinizer05on a completely different topic: every garage member already has an account and a homedir on maemo infra. I suggest creating an app that allows making use of that "cloud storage"22:51
chem|stsure in this case it simplifies but otoh tmo is currently my liability...22:51
DocScrutinizer05as a service from maemo.org to maemo community22:51
juicemechem|st, bulletin board licence?22:51
chem|styes22:52
DocScrutinizer05heck, we even could offer VPN22:52
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: adding webdav,caldav and carddav?22:52
juicemeDocScrutinizer05, so it is possible ti distribute own sources & packages from garage?22:52
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: maybe. Or simply sftp22:53
chem|stehrm nope22:53
DocScrutinizer05juiceme: no22:53
juicemeokay22:53
juicemeso just for personal use22:53
DocScrutinizer05at least not meant to be allowed22:53
chem|styou can easily fckup a system with inodes of 10k people's files...22:53
juiceme:)22:54
chem|stWin7Mac: any input on the backscroll?22:54
chem|stor is that fine with you? as you said you do not want kde but something similar22:55
DocScrutinizer05HiFo (e.V) may offer this as a paid service22:55
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: that is the next thing, how do you like Maemo e.V.?22:55
DocScrutinizer05hm?22:55
DocScrutinizer05I'm not available for anything like that22:56
chem|stwhat do you mean?22:56
DocScrutinizer05I don't like any e.V.22:56
juicemeas a name for the e.V, ?22:56
chem|styeah22:56
DocScrutinizer05and I'm afraid I soon won't be available for anything22:57
DocScrutinizer05anymore22:57
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: was only about the naming22:57
chem|stnot founding a third thing^^22:57
juicemeIs the name Maemo available then?22:58
chem|stjuiceme: maybe we get that sorted by then... _fingers-crossed_22:59
chem|stWin7Mac: ping me when you have more on it I get going after the meeting23:00
chem|stjuiceme: DocScrutinizer05 anything else?23:01
juicemethere's already been lots :)23:01
juicemehow about the voting, wil that be arranged?23:01
juicemeit does take some time to get it organized, I assume23:02
chem|stjuiceme: yea sorry for that, you probably wait for a fancy graph by win7mac to include it to your minutes23:02
chem|styeah voting will be announced at the time needed23:03
juicemeyes, that'll do fine23:03
Win7Macsorry, got disturbed23:03
juicemeWin7Mac, I'll put up your graphs to the minutes.23:03
Win7Macyea, I'll update the diagram accordingly23:03
chem|stWin7Mac: no problem, thought you might want to add/question/change/enhance my thoughts before we close23:03
Win7Macwell, my idea was exactly to exclude regular members for voting...23:04
Win7Mac*was NOT23:04
chem|stWin7Mac: hehe so the idea of honorary members suites you?23:04
chem|steh was not to exclude?23:05
Win7Macyou're using that term for extraordinary members23:05
Win7Macwell, my idea was NOT exactly to exclude regular members for voting...23:05
chem|stelaborate23:05
juicemethis term "extraordinary" confuses me a bit, you use it to mean less-than-ordinary, now?23:06
juicemekind of external23:06
Win7MacI thought of council as a group/commitee within regular members, voted by either regular members or extraordinary...23:06
chem|stjuiceme: what is the bad word for extraordinary?23:07
Win7Macguys, look at the diagramm, extraordinary members = community23:07
Win7Mac= simple users, no voting rights for them23:07
chem|stWin7Mac: it is about what the english word means... as superpowers are extraordinary23:07
juicemechem|st, not a bad word, but usually "extraordinary" as I understand it, means better-than-ordinary23:08
juicemeexactly23:08
chem|stjuiceme: me too but I bite my tongue on that as I have no clue what it is called in english23:08
juicemeah, so it is a direct translation from German, that makes sense then :P23:09
chem|styeah it does23:11
juicemeextraordinary is fine with me, then.23:11
chem|stWin7Mac: honorary member is ehrenamtlich, same as voluntary23:11
DocScrutinizer05an e.V. must have a general meeting with all members, at least once a year, afaik23:12
chem|stand would fit the non-voting description23:12
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: that is why I want to make ordinary members 8 max^^23:12
DocScrutinizer05dunno how ADAC is handling it23:12
Win7Maci am using the term honorary member for those, who should be honoured...23:12
chem|sthehe wanna use voluntary then?23:13
Win7Machonorary membership is supposed to be awarded23:13
chem|stWin7Mac: that is honoured members not honorary23:13
chem|stehren-mitglied und ehrenamtliches mitglied23:14
Win7Macoh, sorry then, just learned smth23:14
juicemein english, honorary membership is what is given to someone who has merit23:14
Win7Macright!23:14
DocScrutinizer05why not use the terms that describe your item best? honorary members that get appointed? are appointed members23:14
chem|stjuiceme: honoured23:14
juicemeWho has committed some good deed, done lots of work towards common cause, and so on23:15
DocScrutinizer05ordinary members that may vote? are voting members23:15
chem|sthonorary  adj.   - unpaid (Brit.)23:15
juicemechem|st, that's "voluntary"23:15
Win7Machonoured members: guys like Texrat, Reggie...23:15
juicemeyes23:15
chem|stok lets call it voluntary not to stress veterinary there...23:15
* DocScrutinizer05 leaving23:16
chem|stWin7Mac: texrat? he has moved to the dark side and does WP8...23:16
juicemereally??23:16
Win7Macout of this group, a arbitrating body can be formed23:17
juicemethat's dark indeed.23:17
chem|stjuiceme: last pic I have seen was a nokia booth for Lumia phones23:17
chem|stwith him behind it...23:17
juicemeI somehow thought he'd left Nokia23:17
chem|stI hae no idea what he was doing, iirc it was a twitpic23:18
juicemebut well, what we do on our work-life is sometimed compromises23:18
Win7Macthey have to accept, ofc...23:18
juicemeWin7Mac, what is the role of arbitrating body?23:18
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Win7Macavoid the need of going to court if council and board have a major fight e.g.23:19
juicemeah ok23:19
Win7Macor maybe if nokia goes after us, they can deal with nokia and the board23:20
chem|stWin7Mac: I have the word now... associated members... no rights but listed23:22
juicemeokay, that sounds good23:22
chem|stcouncil is elected member23:23
Win7Macwell, leo.org says "honorary member" for "Ehrenmitglied"23:24
chem|stif not a permanent member already23:24
chem|stWin7Mac: says both, in british enlgish it is voluntary in US it is both23:24
Win7Macok23:25
chem|stI refer always to british english as we are in europe23:25
chem|stand oxford is what I learned in my english boarding school23:26
chem|stwith every us tv-series my english degenerates 1%...23:27
chem|stWin7Mac: is it ok with you to have council and board vote upon new board or do you think that it is a bda idea and we should have the whole body vote?23:27
juicemethat23:27
juiceme's true23:28
Win7Macthat's the major point... how to define regular members with voting rights23:29
chainsawbike"voting member"23:30
juicemeeverybody who has paid up the fee for the year is eligible to vote, I'd say.23:30
Win7Macto abstract voting rights from community is already a huge step, limiting it to a 5-people-council is another huuuge one23:31
juicemevoting member is good word23:31
Win7MacI assume, we'll get some dozen regular members and they *should* be the ones voting upon everything in a verein23:33
Win7Macthats how it usually works23:33
chem|stWin7Mac: what are you talking about limiting it back to what it used to be... isn't huge23:33
Win7Macin the general assembly23:33
chem|stWin7Mac: that breaks with the current situation23:34
chem|stcurrent situation is community elects council, council votes on stuff...23:34
chem|stI do not want to open a way into voting stuff on a small group not being voted on by community or elected members23:35
* juiceme needs to go...23:36
chem|stthat is not how business worked and that is what we promised - nothing changes23:36
chem|stfor the community voting on board which has no direct contact in regards of business with the community was an additional need we made up23:37
Win7MacWe should be able to take a complete new start, no matter the actual rules. We just have to make sure that gets accepted by council and/or community, no?23:38
Win7Macwhat you are suggesting also is a completely differnt thing than today23:39
chem|stsure but the general mockup of community<->council relation shoudl not change23:39
chem|stcompletely? nope, having votes delegated is not so intrusive as having randoms vote instead23:40
Win7Machhhm23:41
chem|stand we would need to open up for all members... you can do teh accounting if you want to but I do not want to handle +100accounts23:41
chem|stthat would mean to set criteria for voting members request to the said xxxkarma + time of active acount23:42
chem|stand having annual meetings with all those23:42
Win7Macabsolutely right :)23:42
chem|st the fact that I held such meetings in my past does not mean that I liked it23:43
Win7Mac;)23:43
chem|stso can we please not have voting members by request and have the board via a delegated vote from the council23:44
Win7Macok23:44
chem|st(I wonder if you let me go awol and take over if I do^^)23:44
chem|stI think about the workload and that noone actually wants to do it but someone has to... in the first term this would be me for at least the first bit of accounting... so keep it simple and small as possible please, for our won sake23:46
chem|stown23:46
chem|stso I wanted to go 45min ago - any objections go into queue pls - thanks for your time23:47
Win7Macno problem. Again, I was basically pointing to options...23:47
chem|stand I ask to reconsider the massEffect23:47
chem|sthave a nice evening!23:47
Win7Maccouncil should agree in any case...23:47

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