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| qwazix | hi all, I'll be a little late today | 19:57 |
|---|---|---|
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| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05, qwazix: you there? (Unless I'm totally off it's time for the meeting?) | 20:04 |
| thedead1440 | I hope this meeting clarifies this post of Rob's: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1327704&postcount=20 | 20:19 |
| qwazix | hi | 20:20 |
| qwazix | sorry for being late | 20:20 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, so I'm not crazy and it is meeting time. | 20:20 |
| MentalistTraceur | Good. | 20:20 |
| MentalistTraceur | thedead1440: Strictly speaking, there are two different 'entities' called Council. The one that Nokia set up, and the one that the Hildon Foundation creates by its bylaws. | 20:23 |
| qwazix | yes, I see that you missed my "I'll be late" message for about half a minute :p | 20:23 |
| thedead1440 | MentalistTraceur: isn't the next Council election supposed to align council to HiFo? | 20:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | Rob (although he's not the first to think this is the valid interpretation) is taking the 'the current council is not the HiFo council' outlook. | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi, sorry for late | 20:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | thedead1440: Sure (although my take has always been that we ARE the first hifo council), | 20:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | but if you go with that interpretation presented by that post, then this current council can't force a reelection of both bodies. | 20:25 |
| MentalistTraceur | Hey Doc. | 20:25 |
| Woody14619 | Technically, Nokia didn't set up the first Council. The community did. :) | 20:25 |
| thedead1440 | Rob's post just serves to spread further confusion | 20:26 |
| thedead1440 | here the current Chair of Council thinks this Council is the first HiFo council while otoh Rob says the polar opposite... | 20:26 |
| MentalistTraceur | I get the impression by Rob making that post, that Rob is intending to play that angle if the council did try to force a reelection. | 20:27 |
| thedead1440 | Exactly and in that case if this Council can't call for HiFo's BoD election i think there should be an election instead of simply appointing 2 more members | 20:27 |
| MentalistTraceur | And, while I would much rather not tangle in legalese-interpretation games with a lawyer, about laws from that lawyer's jurisdiction, it might mean it'll come to that. | 20:28 |
| MentalistTraceur | As a heads up, America transfers to DST (daylight savings time) this week, so there's a small chance I'll come in an hour... um... late? Early? I don't recall. | 20:29 |
| * thedead1440 thinks steeny's post though rude is perfectly right in describing Rob... | 20:29 | |
| MentalistTraceur | s/steeny/stenny/ | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I seem to know Rob telling shit there, HiFo unanimously appointed council for council | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see minutes | 20:30 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Will do, now if someone links me, later today if not) | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I have to state that Rob put himself into a rather suspicious light with this move | 20:32 |
| thedead1440 | Council being appointed: http://hildonfoundation.org/board-minutes-for-meeting-on-december-8th-2012/ | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | toldya | 20:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | I still would like to think that Rob is still acting from a place of good intentions to the Community/Maemo, | 20:33 |
| thedead1440 | However this seems pre-planned to me; it says Maemo Community Council not Hildon Foundation Council | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: haha | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | zhis getting harder by the day | 20:34 |
| thedead1440 | MentalistTraceur: To me it seems he wants to do a power grab in all honesty | 20:34 |
| Woody14619 | I will be doing a follow up post to Robs. | 20:34 |
| MentalistTraceur | Hey, I am perfectly willing to accept the possibility that this is a power grab. | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is this Jim here? | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to introduce himself? | 20:36 |
| MentalistTraceur | I just like to keep my views of people's actions limited to differently weighed possibilities, | 20:36 |
| qwazix | My opinion regarding Jim Jagielski (spelling?) is that he is already too late to introduce himself | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wnder what *Nokia* thinks about such misbehaviour | 20:37 |
| qwazix | He isn't getting my vote for one. | 20:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | and I still think it's reasonably possible this is not a power grab. (The possibility I see as MOST likely is that as a lawyer, he is doing typical lawyer behavior - minimize liability/risk/obligation/anything-legally-problematic-or-binding to his position.) | 20:38 |
| thedead1440 | qwazix: +1 | 20:38 |
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| MentalistTraceur | Hey now, don't direct your dissatisfaction with the current Board situation on the guy being brought in, if there's anything less than good-for-community intentions going on, Jim most likely isn't in on it. | 20:39 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, qwazix / DocScrutinizer05: anything else to add to the meeting agenda today? | 20:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | Before we start? | 20:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | s/start/continue to discuss this issue about Board/Rob/etc/ | 20:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | Shit, that's horrible syntax... | 20:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ummm... | 20:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | s|start|continue to discuss this issue about Board/Rob/etc| | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, I note i'm not really here | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | other sidenote: in exactly one week is 15. of Mar. Date when Nemein will shut down servers, if not earlier | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *new* is working great (even autobuilder!!!), but we have no control over DNS yet | 20:43 |
| MentalistTraceur | So, everything hinges on DNS? | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Jacekowski putatively appointed as autobuilder maintainer - by me | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: yes | 20:44 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, maybe a big tmo sign with maemocommunity.org pointing to *new*? | 20:44 |
| qwazix | in case no dns until shutdown? | 20:44 |
| Woody14619 | quazix: my thoughts exactly... | 20:45 |
| Woody14619 | As noted in the e-mail I sent out to Council/Board a few days ago. | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: possible | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though in all honesty a minijob to patch everybody's /etc/hosts would do better | 20:48 |
| MentalistTraceur | Agreed on qwazix' suggestion: I can see how Nokia might have a problem with it if they noticed, but realistically they probably don't give a shit. | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | let's hope for monday, when Pekka calls Nokia DNSmaster | 20:49 |
| Woody14619 | No reason we couldn't do both? | 20:49 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, better still, a .install button on tmo to autopatch users hosts file | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: feasible for maemo devices, yes | 20:49 |
| qwazix | There are still non-geeks with N900's without even rootsh installed | 20:49 |
| Woody14619 | Which is why I would even consider the option of both an installable option, and perhapse a "system update (PR1.4)" pushed to all phones. | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SSU borked, key-expired problem | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also we don't own the relevant domains | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it seems to me | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we do not, and never will, own tablets-dev.nokia.com | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for example | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we have no control over SSU repo | 20:54 |
| Woody14619 | No... But everyone has Extras enabled by default, as I recall, yes? | 20:55 |
| Woody14619 | And we do have control over that. | 20:55 |
| qwazix | fmrx-enabler? | 20:55 |
| Woody14619 | Just as thumb can push an update from below CSSU, and CSSU can push updates below SSU, so could Extras. | 20:55 |
| Woody14619 | If multiple repos have the same package, the one with the highest version wins. | 20:56 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, not sure that this is true, I think there is a priority setting in HAM | 20:57 |
| Woody14619 | Given the fact that the standard repos may/will vanish on the 15th... I see little bad coming from "forcing" a hosts file fix to allow repo repoints. (As much as I know Doc hates that idea in general.) | 20:57 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, +1 | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | trust level of domains | 20:58 |
| MentalistTraceur | Woody14619: packages in extra have lower priority than packages from the ssu repo, so my understanding is it won't let you just override a package that comes from the ssu repo. | 20:58 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: HAM still presents me with CSSU updates... Unless CSSU did something to "fix" that during it's install. | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ask Pali or kerio | 20:58 |
| MentalistTraceur | Not, 'priority', but 'trust', or whatever you want to call it correctly. | 20:58 |
| kerio | call it trust, priority is an apt thing | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we can't probably roll a PR1.4 | 20:58 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, Unless…. <- I think that's what is happening but not sure | 20:59 |
| kerio | we can poison a package from extras | 20:59 |
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| Woody14619 | Can we roll *anything* that would prompt an end user with PR1.* to see the update blinker? | 21:00 |
| MentalistTraceur | (To this day I still think if we can, we should start pushing CSSU as actual SSU updates, but that's neither her nor there.) | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: perfect | 21:00 |
| Woody14619 | hello SD69 | 21:00 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: not perfect at all | 21:00 |
| MentalistTraceur | kerio: Doesn't it have to be a package /everyone/ has installed? | 21:00 |
| kerio | MentalistTraceur: n900-fmtx-enabler | 21:00 |
| SD69 | hello | 21:00 |
| kerio | it's not everyone though | 21:00 |
| qwazix | fmr*x enabler | 21:00 |
| kerio | whatevs | 21:00 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05, any news about expired ssu key from nokia? | 21:00 |
| Pali | should I write email? | 21:00 |
| MentalistTraceur | Will it auto-update for people on stock SSU, though? | 21:01 |
| qwazix | kerio, I think fmrx-enabler is there for everybody, fmtx not | 21:01 |
| kerio | qwazix: neat | 21:01 |
| kerio | so we *do* have a poisonable package | 21:01 |
| qwazix | we 'll have to make sure, I'm not 100% sure | 21:02 |
| MentalistTraceur | After all, I have package A installed that depended on package B, if package B updates, but apt brought package B in automatically, my understanding was that apt won't automatically ask me to install B's updates. | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: no, yes | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please | 21:03 |
| Pali | ok, going to write email | 21:03 |
| MentalistTraceur | ..at least as I understand it. | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tell them we urgently need this fixed | 21:04 |
| kerio | MentalistTraceur: apt will ask you to update B | 21:04 |
| MentalistTraceur | Also, hi Rob, good to see you could make it. | 21:04 |
| MentalistTraceur | kerio: And HAM will too? | 21:05 |
| kerio | sure | 21:06 |
| kerio | if it's a user package | 21:06 |
| kerio | :) | 21:06 |
| SD69 | hi | 21:06 |
| kerio | hi SD69 | 21:07 |
| SD69 | kerio: hi | 21:07 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ahh, so that's the key - package everyone has installed from extras that's also a 'user package'. | 21:07 |
| kerio | MentalistTraceur: we can make it a user package | 21:07 |
| kerio | and anyway, i think that n900-fmtx-enabler *is* a user package | 21:08 |
| kerio | urg, -fmrx- | 21:08 |
| qwazix | Why not just install cssu enabler and run it transparently from postinst rather than hijacking dependencies? | 21:08 |
| MentalistTraceur | kerio: yeah, it is a user package, pretty sure. | 21:08 |
| kerio | qwazix: something something apt's lock something something | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is this a point for meeting? | 21:09 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: Nothing has really been a formal point so far. | 21:09 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05, email sent | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I ask "is it reasonable to discuss it here?" | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: many thanks | 21:10 |
| MentalistTraceur | Sure, it pertains to ways we can get around the issue of shit breaking if Nokia doesn't give hifo dns control by the 15th. | 21:11 |
| Pali | Very bad :-( Delivery Status Notification (Failure) 550 5.1.1 <ext-emil.1.nyback@nokia.com>... User unknown | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: we have a new mailalias <techstaff@maemo.org> for all email (and CC) that's related to administration of technical crap | 21:11 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05 ^^ | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: a) DO NOT publish nokia mailadd on this (or other) IRC chan | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: b) I will have a look after meeting | 21:12 |
| Pali | ok | 21:12 |
| MentalistTraceur | Rob, since you're here: | 21:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | Any word on if Jim accepts or rejects the appointment to Director? | 21:13 |
| SD69 | I'm back - no word | 21:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, thank you. Also: how's it looking as far as negotiations with Nokia for the transfer (especially DNS control, but I imagine the transfer will be all in one swoop for both that and whatever else there is)? | 21:16 |
| thedead1440 | Also since SD69 is around this is the best time to ask him what he means by Maemo Community Council not having any relationship with HiFo especially when HiFo BoD expressly approved of it in their official meeting. | 21:17 |
| SD69 | he accepted before I made the announcement, but haven't heard from him since | 21:17 |
| qwazix | SD69, my fear is that a person who hasn't bothered to even come and say hi in any way won't bother for maemo affairs as much as needed | 21:17 |
| SD69 | Nokia - ugh, I'm worried. what about issues with maemo.org? | 21:18 |
| SD69 | do we really want issues fixed before the transfer? | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | The largest issue we have right now is getting DNS under controll, IMHO. | 21:19 |
| SD69 | *insist that issues be fixed before the transfer? | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | If we have that, everything else is frankly optional. | 21:19 |
| SD69 | I got a list with the 6 biggest bugs saying these should be fixed as part of the agreement | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | Once we have the DNS server, worst case if we get the finger and/or servers shut off, we can re-direct. | 21:21 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, we can't redirect after servers shut off | 21:22 |
| qwazix | and hijacking a package to push updates to everybody would need some work and testing | 21:22 |
| qwazix | so we might have to decide soon on this | 21:22 |
| MentalistTraceur | Speaking personally, albeit as someone who likely won't be personally having to do the work to fix the bugs, I'd be okay with the bugs being left unfixed. But that's not official council position. | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Can't we? My understanding was that DNS is currently being handled by Nokia, no the provider. | 21:23 |
| SD69 | These issues "must be resolved" before the official handover "as part of the initial agreement" - are you sure you want to take that position?? | 21:23 |
| qwazix | SD69, what position? The initial agreement was to hand us over a working infra, no? | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | define "transfer": A) handover of control over DNS to techstaff@maemo B) handover of other assets form Nokia to Hifo C) Nemein handing over responsibility for maintenance of maemo.org (technical part) to techstaff@maemo | 21:24 |
| SD69 | qwazix: there was an oral agreement to hand it over early on, but then things started going wrong, no one contemplated a broken website | 21:25 |
| qwazix | So we want the bugs to be fixed, plain and simple. I think we can wait a week longer if we are assured that they'll be fixed. We just don't want to be told now infra is your problem when we switch dns. | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for C) I'd say YES we need that stuff getting fixed before Nemein telling us it's our business now | 21:25 |
| qwazix | That's why I wrote, "before the handover" | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this doesn't affect A) much, or B) at all | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | While we would *like* the issues to be resolved, AFAIK the current state is that the servers are slated to be shut down soon. Given a choice between taking a handover of the servers "as is", or everything simply shutting down and no way to redirect, I think the choice there is obvious. | 21:26 |
| SD69 | qwazix: I don't think we can get an assurance... | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | side note: for A) Nemein isn't involved | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a thing between Nokia and... Tim? | 21:27 |
| qwazix | SD69, not even verbal one? | 21:28 |
| MentalistTraceur | Except to Nokia bureaucrats/lawyers it does make a difference: to start handing over anything, they need an agreement that they like, and an agreement where they don't have to fix stuff is one they'll like way more than an agreement where they do have to fix stuff. | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (according to that last [legendary] friday meeting Nemein+Nokia+board) | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | SD69:Can't we just say "we would like to procede with the domain and name transfer/licensing now, and request Nemein remain available to fix unresolved issues we've noted below"? | 21:29 |
| SD69 | qwazix: telephone call is harder to do than email, and I think time is running out... | 21:29 |
| MentalistTraceur | So my concern is, by insisting on bug fixes we might well be causing them to delay on agreeing more than they otherwise would. | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: please don't confuse stuff, Nemein still is *in charge* of even the new server at IPHH. That's been part of the whole nifty plan why we could do this | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DNs switching is unrelated | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | You and I understand that... I'm not sure Nokia does. | 21:30 |
| SD69 | woody 14619: I don't know what is going on at Nemein, but it feels as though they feel they are done with it. I sent Nokia's response in an email. | 21:30 |
| qwazix | SD69, sorry by verbal I meant non-official, just someone saying "I'll look into it" | 21:30 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: agreed... I get the same feeling. | 21:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | And if due to the above we end up with the choice of hand-over of DNS sooner, and no bugfixes, or handover sometime after the 15th, | 21:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | and bugfixes, I'd happily take the former. | 21:31 |
| SD69 | I've sent another email to Nokia, mentioning the serious issues with the website, not holding out much hope. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SD69: even when Nokia hands over *everything* to HiFo, this doesn't affect Nemen's responsibility to fulfil their contract and fix bugs in the "goods"/service they delivered and probably not yet got paid for by Nokia | 21:32 |
| thedead1440 | how is the DNS handover related to bug fixing? DNS handover is unrelated and needs to be done regardless of the bug fixing isn't it? | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ^^^ | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: yes | 21:33 |
| Woody14619 | IMHO: A few Nemein employees *may* still be willing to help out in their spare time. But I don't think we're going to get any more "official" time from them. | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | A), B) and C) are mostly unentangled | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: they sold a good to Nokia, the good is not good (pun intended) | 21:34 |
| thedead1440 | Why is unofficial *help* required when officially they are responsible for transferring everything in fit and proper condition? | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: Nemein has to fix the flaws in what they delivered | 21:34 |
| SD69 | DocScrutinizer05: Nemein is responsible, but I doubt if Nokia will hold them accountable. I've seen 2+ years of Nemein not being terribly responsive. They might have done more work in the last 3 months than they did in the previous 3 years | 21:34 |
| Woody14619 | Which is why I'm saying, we should push Nokia to finish this. | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SD69: that's another problem that I can't judge on | 21:34 |
| SD69 | DocScrutinizer05: and neither can I | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SD69: I just know Nokia hasn't paid Nemein jet for migration, most probably | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yet* | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: While I agree with that... Legally the entity that must push Nemein to deliver is Nokia. Nokia has already expressed disinterest in doing this several times in the past. | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if nokia's clerks are not stupid, they will want to control what they get for their money, and ponder if there's a reason to transfer money a months later or maybe not at all | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | The agreement for work done is between Nokia and Nemein. Not US and Nemein. | 21:36 |
| thedead1440 | IMHO if one pushes Nokia sufficiently they would most probably push Nemein to get the work promised done. | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia clerks need input for doing that | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WE can give then this input | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: Nokia's clerks *don't*care*. This is a legacy product that they wanted to axe. | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | The fact that the clerk will need to spend any time on this at all is more than they're willing to put into this. | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: I disagree. Clerks check money, nothing else | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and they definitely care when somebody asks them for money but there's good reason they shouldn't give that money to thos who ask | 21:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | Clerks check money, liability, how much of a pain in the ass something is. | 21:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | While they count money, the bigger the company, the less money matters relative to the other two. | 21:39 |
| SD69 | DocScrutinizer05: clerks check invoices, and payments; they don't check the autobuilder on maemo.org (if they even know about it) to see if it's working | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SD69: that's exactly my point | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so YOU need to let them know about those issues | 21:40 |
| qwazix | They won't check it so it's our responsibility to make it known | 21:40 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: Given the choice on working on an ongoing budget (Lumia) or this, the clerk will likely determin *we* are too much of a pain in the ass, and just sign off the bill. By comparison to everything else they're doing, this is a drop in the bucket. | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since _they_ don't even know of them | 21:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | Clerks who paid for Nemein to take maemo.org and infra off their hands paid for the 'service' of not having to deal with *maemo.org | 21:40 |
| SD69 | clerks won't listen to a non-Nokia person telling them not to pay an invoice | 21:40 |
| thedead1440 | MentalistTraceur: exactly and if one becomes a thorn in their ass they would certainly make sure Nemein finish the job satisfactorily | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | Also, Nemein isn't *just* handling Maemo. They're handling lots of stuff for Nokia. | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly don't get what you guys are arguing here O.o NOT tell nokia about Nemein not yet has fulfilled contract, since _we_ _assume_ Nokia wouldn't care anyway?? | 21:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | No, because it's more worth their money to have shit broken on Nemein's end, and just ignore HiFo/Council/etc, then to take time out of their day to to pressure Nemein. | 21:41 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, +1 | 21:41 |
| thedead1440 | DocScrutinizer05: +1 | 21:42 |
| thedead1440 | If assumptions counted, coding competition wouldn't have *ever* got the missing devices replaced | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | I'm not saying don't tell Nokia. But I don't think we should pin our getting DNS handover on them forcing Nemien to finish, because I frankly don't see it happening. | 21:42 |
| thedead1440 | being a thorn in the ass certainly went a long way there... | 21:42 |
| SD69 | DocScrutinizer05: I told Nokia in February that maemo.org isn't working. I emailed the response. I've told them again. | 21:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: As I've stated, I'm arguing that by asking for bugfixes as part of the agreement, we are most likely delaying the DNS transfer. | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: DAFAQ I TOLDYA DNS is UNRELATED!!! | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | thedead1440: Then we had people at Nokia that still gave a rats ass... | 21:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | And if someone doesn't see how the two will be linked, they need to stop thinking about it as purely technical matters. | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: TO YOU! To NOKIA this is ALL ONE HANDOVER. | 21:43 |
| thedead1440 | Woody14619: nah; it was being a thorn in the ass. I know from personal experience in that case ;) | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* | 21:43 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, not sure it is. Dnsmaster and clerks are not the same division | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 21:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: dnsmaster and clerks in question answer to the same bureaucrats higher up who are making the decisions/negotiations. | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | Nokia isn't setting up a row of documents to hand over this one part at a time. They want to setup one thing, hand it all over, and tell the lower deparments to comply. | 21:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | And those people don't see the difference. | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to board: NO please DO NOT refuse to tajke over assets on a basis of "but nemein hasn't fixed bugs yet"! | 21:44 |
| qwazix | Nobody in Nokia is going to go tell the DNSmaster don't switch the dns before nemein fixes the bugs in autobuilder. It's insane to even think about it | 21:45 |
| Woody14619 | The reason the lower deparments (like DNSMaster) haven't given it over is simply because Nokia hasn't signed off on it. | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pekka is driving this, no? | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't think Pekka is a blockhead who can't handle parts of the package separately | 21:46 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: DNSMaster is waiting on a signe agreement to transfer. That will happen as ONE unit. Nemein, DNS, name licensing, it's all ONE think to Nokia top brass. | 21:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: decision-maker either says "yes hand-over" or "no hand-over", then dnsmaster does whatever. If we tell decision-maker "but look the bugs aren't fixed yet", they hesitate instead of saying "yes hand-over". DocScrutinizer05: I'm sure Pekka probably has to clear things with higher-ups before finalizing decisions? | 21:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: incorrect, Pekka told board "DNs transfer can already be done2 in that legendary meeting, according to what board reported to us | 21:47 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: That's not the point. Pekka is limited by the legal department, and upper brass, who mush sign off on the agreement. | 21:48 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, Woody14619 we just disagree here, and since we are all just assuming how Nokia works I say we stop discussing this | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: sorry then we have NO way to comment or advice you on your obscure board business when even info YOU give us is irrelevant and moot | 21:49 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: it's not assumption, it's a matter of predicting how large collectives of people with given known bureaucratic traits work. | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | I've worked at large corporations. Xerox, Kodak, all of them don't do this piece meal BS. | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: Get off your high horse. I've been Board for all of about 4 days, and suddenly I'm the bad guy? Yo sound like Estel. | 21:50 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, assumption or prediction my point that we just disagree and won't agree soon is still valid | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BS | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I never told you are the bad guy | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | <DocScrutinizer05> Woody14619: sorry then we have NO way to comment or advice you on your obscure board business when even info YOU give us is irrelevant and moot | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | Really? ^^^ | 21:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I quoted a bord genuine info about Pekka giving OK for DNS transfer, now you say that's irrelevant | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | "your obscure board business" sounds like a slight to me. | 21:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes really, YOU==boeard | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | For 4 days... | 21:51 |
| qwazix | (board with a beard?) | 21:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, all I'm saying is: we should not emphasize bugfixes to Nokia. My recommendation is we agree to the transfer, no emphasis or mention of bug-fixes, so we can get the dns transfered to us in time to switch the the server at IPHH by the 15th. | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, for me now and in this sentence | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/you/board/ | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | I'm telling you what I know from working in companies like this. Most of them don't do things piecemeal. | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how difficult can language get?? | 21:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | ..if we want to pressure Nokia to pressure Nemein for bug-fixes later, no problem (though fuck knows if they'll listen), | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | While Pekka may have *wanted* to hand DNS over early, if that were possible it would ALREADY HAVE BEEN DONE. | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BWAHAHA | 21:53 |
| MentalistTraceur | but we don't want people anywhere in the decision chain holding up the transfer because they view that and the bug-fixes as inseperable. | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | Bingo MT: ^^^^ | 21:53 |
| warfare | If I may stop in for a moment: Adding a hidden master to a domain and handing over said domain are two different things. The first can be done with very little signing of documents. | 21:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, I don't get it what you (board) wanna hear from us (council) | 21:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: yes. Not that this would matter here in *any* way | 21:54 |
| *** MentalistTraceur has quit IRC | 21:55 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since board seems to ask us "want you all or nothing", not allowing them to act on a premise that Nokia might not insist in handling stuff as a bulk | 21:55 |
| Woody14619 | Council seemed to be set on saying "we'll take nothing until Nemein has fixed all problems". I think what SD69 is asking is "Should we say 'Do the transfer now', and hope Nokia is willing to get Nemein to do this after the closing bell. Or do we hold out for the fixes first?" | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | outright denying that Pekka gave OK for DNS transfer some 3 weeks ago | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | I for for the former. From the initial comments, Council seemd to vote for the former. | 21:56 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, the point is that we think that this isn't a binary operation | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: thats bullshit | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: I'm not *denying* anything... | 21:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we never said any "all or nothing" directive | 21:57 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: Three months ago I was busy with my own life, and didn't have time to track every sentence uttered on mailing lists I DIDN:T HAVE ACCESS TO. | 21:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and as explained before ther are at least THREE transfer actions going on concurrently | 21:57 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: And I'm telling you, it's very likely that Nokia (not Pekka, not you, not me, not the hobo down the road, NOKIA) see this as one action. | 21:58 |
| qwazix | Let me clarify something: we want the bug fixing to occur before the handover, NOT the handover to wait until the bugs are fixed. | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I advice board not to go for "it's likely" assumptions to guide ther actions regading this | 21:59 |
| SD69 | There is one transfer agreement that Nokia has asked us to sign: They are not going to break it into three parts. | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | try to get DNS. Independently(!!!) try to get all assets | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | There won't be time to do that. It would require Nokia legal to review it all again. | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | INDIPENDENTLY try to tell Nokia that Nemein hasn't fixed stuff yet and thus MAEMO techsaff can't take responsibility from Nemein yet | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | That we can do. | 22:00 |
| *** MentalistTraceur has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:00 | |
| Woody14619 | quazix: How exactly does one not imply the other? | 22:00 |
| MentalistTraceur | What's the link to view the logs for Freenode online again? | 22:01 |
| thedead1440 | MentalistTraceur: see /topic | 22:01 |
| MentalistTraceur | Nvm, found it. | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | quazix: if you want bug fixing to occur before the handover, that implies you don't want the handover until bugs are fixed. That's the issue. | 22:01 |
| SD69 | For the umpteenth time, we have told Nokia, repeatedly, that Nemein hasn't fixed the website. | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | Nokia doesn't care...They haven't for a long, long time. | 22:01 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, in plain english the one is "Fix the bugs now" the other is "Give us the infra after you fix the bugs" | 22:01 |
| thedead1440 | website? Its not about the website but the infrastructure o.O | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then pretty please do in the umpteenth+1 time | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: +1 | 22:02 |
| Woody14619 | Even when Quim was our rep, and we went to him to ask him to push Nemien to do things on our behalf (like just start a f-ing election on time) he refused to push. | 22:02 |
| qwazix | Really those bugs should be trivial for Nemein to fix | 22:02 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, last thing I said while internet died, idk if it went through, was the following three lines: | 22:02 |
| MentalistTraceur | 14:52:01 < MentalistTraceur> Anyway, all I'm saying is: we should not emphasize bugfixes to Nokia. My recommendation is we agree to the transfer, no emphasis or mention of bug-fixes, so we can get the dns transfered to us in time to switch the the server at IPHH by the 15th. | 22:03 |
| MentalistTraceur | 14:52:35 < MentalistTraceur> ..if we want to pressure Nokia to pressure Nemein for bug-fixes later, no problem (though fuck knows if they'll listen), | 22:03 |
| Woody14619 | Do you REALLY think some stranger, tasked with this crap job of handling a bunch of pissed off legacy device owners will do more? | 22:03 |
| MentalistTraceur | 14:53:14 < MentalistTraceur> but we don't want people anywhere in the decision chain holding up the transfer because they view that and the bug-fixes as inseperable. | 22:03 |
| thedead1440 | why not run the umpteenth+1 time email from Board to Nokia via Council? Council are best positioned to align terminologies especially when SD69 is thinking a "website" is broken | 22:03 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: After... That implies delaying handover until bugs are fixed... | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: And if the bugs don't get fixed? And Nemien shuts down the servers on the 15th? Then what? | 22:04 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, yes I really think that some reputable Nokia employee, tasked with the job to keep old customers happy will be willing to send a nice mail to nemein. | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | And Nemein will be perfectly happy to toss that, know it's frankly not important to them. | 22:05 |
| qwazix | just as another employee did the far more difficult job of finding two N950's and shipping them to our CC winners | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | They've done it several times in the past. | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: as soon as Nokia doesn't pay their bill, they WILL care at Nemein | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: Nokia won't hold up that payment.... | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | uhu! | 22:06 |
| Woody14619 | They have too many eggs in the Nemein basket to care. | 22:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: I think Nokia will find it cheaper to pay then to deal with the mess that happens if they don't. | 22:06 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, not if it says we won't pay you. And the clerk will look good trying to save money, instead of sending off devices to strangers. We clearly see this way differently and I urged you before to stop discussing it as it is pointless | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine, do you have an idea where to send bills to at Nokia that get paid no matter what? | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I would like to send one too | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: ack | 22:07 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: Get a large company that has the power to cause more financial trouble for Nokia if they don't pay one of your bills, and there you go. | 22:07 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: the problem is we NEED to resolve this issue. | 22:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: that's nonsense. Nemein isn't such huge company | 22:08 |
| Woody14619 | Do you believe enough in this person you think you know at Nokia to hold up that bill, and for Nemein to care enough to finish all the work, and hand it all off by the 15th? | 22:08 |
| Woody14619 | I don't. | 22:08 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, I just don't share the opinion that asking Nokia to push nemein once again is so bad | 22:08 |
| Woody14619 | I'm not saying not to! | 22:08 |
| qwazix | and we *only* need hidden primary before the 15th | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | I'm fine with asking Nokia to push again.. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE | 22:09 |
| qwazix | not signing documents and domains | 22:09 |
| qwazix | Yes, I know you are ok, but as it seems MentalistTraceur and SD69 are not ok with even *mentioning* bugs to Nokia | 22:10 |
| Woody14619 | The issue is, do we want to hold up signing the ONE document, that hands everything over to us, on the hopes that: A> Nokia will push Nemien (and or not pay them), B> Nemein will give a fck and fix all our issues, and C> That will ALL happen before the 15th, in time for us to sign the paperwork and move everything over? | 22:10 |
| qwazix | This is my issue | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I get headache from this pointless discussion. again: I strongly request board to INDEPENDANTLY try to a) get DNS handover, INDEPENDANTLY from a) do B) try to tell Nokia that Nemein hasn't yet fulfilled contract and thus Nokia should rethink paying that bill, and INDEPENDENTLY of a) and b), do C) proceed with handover od all sorts of assets to HiFo | 22:10 |
| qwazix | Again, we *don't* need to sign before the 15th | 22:11 |
| SD69 | Nokia does not work that fast. One contract review by Nokia took over a month | 22:11 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, exactly | 22:11 |
| Woody14619 | docscrutinizer05: A> we can ask, but I very likely will not happen. B> Yes, we can do that. But the risk is that Nokia then will hold up *everything* including DNS because of that. C> Which is what we're asking to do. | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do C) unconditionally no matter what! | 22:12 |
| qwazix | Anyway I have to go, I'll leave the client open and have a look once in a while | 22:12 |
| SD69 | I have told them once more, that there are high priority bugs that we want fixed. | 22:12 |
| qwazix | bye | 22:13 |
| thedead1440 | bye qwazix | 22:13 |
| SD69 | you guys are arguing whether to do something that has already been done | 22:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: IF Nokia bundles stuff in the way you assume, they will let you know, or not? | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: The issue is, when those are signed, Nokia is ready to wash it's hands of this. | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | There is no IF. These are, in fact, right now, bundled into ONE agreement. | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess HiFo is intelligent enough to handle stuff in a reasonable manner, once you guys got the catch that the three points are unrelated from *our* POV | 22:14 |
| SD69 | mentalisttraceur: are there any other issues? | 22:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | (responce to qwazix: I am not saying don't mention bugs to them at all, I'm suggesting emphasizing the desire for bug fixes should wait until after they're transfered the domain, because all it takes is one person in the chain of decision making to not see how the handover and the bugfixes, and the dns iusse are all unrelated, for a spanner to be thrown in our works.) | 22:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | SD69: Not from me. | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: again! HiFo informed us that Pekka already gave green light for DNS transfer 3 weeks ago | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: where from you take that "there's no IF" ? | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | I take it from the fact that there is ONE document. Again, I was not privy to private mail between Council and Board three weeks ago. I have be Board for 4 DAYS. | 22:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | SD69: Though I second Joerg's general hope that in communicating with Nokia, you guys are able to get them to see the distinction between the bug fixes and the rest of the stuff. I don't know how much your communications with them already make that clear. | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this all again feels like "US market thinking clashes with european way to do sane business" | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | If there's a way to do that, the GREAT. We can ask. | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: then please don't insist in stuff that's proven to be different by Nokia's former actions | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | FKFKFKFKJ | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | I AM NOT INSISTING ON ANYHTING | 22:18 |
| SD69 | Nokia has ONE transfer agreement transferring the domain, the trademarks, the website and infrastructure together. They are not going to do it piecemeal. | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | I'm telling you, from MY view point, I see ONE transfer agreement doing it all. | 22:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: More like bureaucracy-of-big-business (which is firghteningly bad) clashing with the way sane people to anything. | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: GO ahead sign that damn document!!!! | 22:19 |
| Woody14619 | And while someone, somewhere, 3 weeks ago may have said differently... From what *I* know, this is all one piece. | 22:19 |
| Woody14619 | That was the question.... | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then pretty please start telling Nokia that Nemein hasn't delivered yet | 22:19 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, this is getting into the degraded-to-yelling stage. | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and DNS transfer seems something HiFo is not skilled to do, in all honesty | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | Because, again, signing that damn document will cause Nokia to WALK AWAY from this. | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | We *might* get lucky, and someone will care... | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's done on a completely different level than contracts | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | But in all honesty, once that document is signed, I foresee Nokia washing their hands of this and blocking *@maemo.org on their mailbox. | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: i'm not interested in prognosis what Nokia will do. I just say what you (boerd) should do in my POV | 22:21 |
| Woody14619 | Which is what was being asked... | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so damn shit!!! can we get an agreement here? | 22:22 |
| Woody14619 | I think we just did... | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that HiFGo will try to sugn that contract no matter what | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that HiFo will tell Nokia that nemein doesn't deliver | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that Hifo will ask Pekka to transfer the DNS to $yet-to-define-since-Tim-left | 22:23 |
| Woody14619 | I think that's viable. | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine | 22:24 |
| SD69 | The DNS is not going to be transferred by itself. They won't do it. | 22:25 |
| Woody14619 | On the last point. What are our options on the replacement of $Tim | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NFC, I already think it should probably gettransferred to somebody with technical knowledge approved by HiFo for doing that | 22:25 |
| Woody14619 | Contractually, the DNS ownership will be transfered to the Board. But we need a tech source... | 22:26 |
| Woody14619 | Agr3eed. | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you got owner and tech-contact in such a domain | 22:26 |
| Woody14619 | We need to source that... quickly. | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: correct me if I'm wrong | 22:26 |
| Woody14619 | I believe that is true. | 22:26 |
| thedead1440 | why not transfer to Doc? He's technically sound and maemo administrator anyway | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tech contact should be either me as HiFo admin-coord_approved | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or Falk | 22:27 |
| warfare | DocScrutinizer05: I'll do ;) | 22:27 |
| Woody14619 | The technical parts are best handled by those who know what they're doing. | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | owner shall be HiFo (though you might guess what I think during writing this) | 22:28 |
| Woody14619 | HiFo is made for just this. To hold things that need a legal entity to hold them on behalf of the community, IMHO. | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | owner can change tech-c any time | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: that's why I say "owner == HiFo" | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tech-c == me | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's pretty identical to that server contract | 22:30 |
| Woody14619 | You or Falk, whichever makes more sense. | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while in server contract owner=HiFo, tech-c=Falk | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for domain that's me | 22:31 |
| Woody14619 | (eg who's going to be setting it up/maintaining it on communitys behalf.) | 22:31 |
| Woody14619 | I'm all good with that. | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | joerg=HiFo-admin-manager | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can delegate maintenance to whomever is siuted for that task | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however if RIPE/whomever wants to contact HiFo about technical problems, they will contact tech-c | 22:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | makes most sense to me when that's admin-manager/coordinator | 22:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: ^^^ comments? | 22:34 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: Wouldn't it make more sense for Falk to be technical contact for both? | 22:34 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Shrug* (Don't know if it would or not, genuinely asking if it won't be more convenient or whatever) | 22:35 |
| Woody14619 | So, summary: We should go on the Nokia contract, informing them that Nemein has still not delivered and it would be great if they could push on them to finish it and/or hold the check. We should ask that DNS handover happen ASAP, either separate from contract or with it. | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: for domain that's an abstract thing, thus it's HiFo's admin-coord to get tech-c. For server the tech-c is the one allowed to enter the cleanroom at IPHH and service the server hw | 22:35 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: No, DNS is not going to be transferred separately | 22:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ack | 22:36 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: For now, should we assume you are tech-c unless we hear otherwise. | 22:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ack | 22:36 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: I know. But as it was mentioned, it's an ask we can put out there. We can phrase it in a way that will no cause strife on their end, I'm sure. | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SD69: don't you think that nokia will do whatever they feel is most easy for them, and it doesn't make sense for HiFo to speculate if "DNS is not going to be transferred separately" ? | 22:38 |
| SD69 | Someone can ask again, but it won't happen. | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's all I ask for | 22:38 |
| Woody14619 | Eg: If possible, we would like the DNS transfer to happen as soon as possible, even if that happens before all parties have signed off on the full agreement. | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ack | 22:38 |
| SD69 | They won't transfer maemo.org w/o maemo trademark | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably | 22:39 |
| MentalistTraceur | SD69: Would it be likely to delay everything to even ask? | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | can't see that | 22:39 |
| Woody14619 | Not if phrased as above, I believe. | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ack | 22:39 |
| SD69 | They have slow turnaround. Would probably take 7 days to get a response. | 22:40 |
| Woody14619 | I can guess the answer... but who knows. Maybe Pekka has paperwork already separate for that (via his quote 3 weeks ago)... It only hurts to ask if they percieve it as a thing needed to procede. | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for a heads-up: Pekka was extremly helpful and granting when Rob asked him about server upgrade. Sure we still wait to see it actually happen. But I don't assume Nokia generally not interested at all, | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SD69: again thanks a lot for insisting in that case :-) | 22:42 |
| Woody14619 | You are more optimistic than I then. | 22:42 |
| Woody14619 | But then I've been pesemistic and wrong a few times here, so... Let's hope it happens again. :) | 22:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | SD69: Would you say it's unlikely they'll sign off on the agreement within 7 days? | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: extremely unlikely | 22:43 |
| SD69 | It's unlikely they will respond to a request to transfer DNS in advance of everything else quicket than 7 days, and IMO, 99% likely to be declined | 22:43 |
| MentalistTraceur | Well my point is if they won't sign off on the whole transfer agreement in 7 days, then we still might as well ask - a 7 day turn-around on a yes/no isn't really us loosing anything if all the results of not asking still lead to us not having dns control in 7 days anyway. | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we got our hidden-primary going concurrently, and Pekka promised a phonecall to DNSmaster about it on next Monday | 22:44 |
| SD69 | They are ready to sign the whole transfer agreement right now. We haven't done so yet. | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so if that flies, the DNs handover isn't THAT time critical and mission critical anymore | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just to give you board-guys a relief | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | won't kill us when Nokia does _not_ transfer the DNS to HiFo in next 5 days | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | assuming our plan-B works | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so relax, it#s not as severe as it might sound | 22:47 |
| MentalistTraceur | 15:45:17 < SD69> They are ready to sign the whole transfer agreement right now. We haven't done so yet. | 22:47 |
| Woody14619 | If we fire this off today/tomorrow, good odds we can get an informal answer by Monday then, if Pekka is working on Maemo that day? | 22:47 |
| MentalistTraceur | About the above quote: Wait, so, we could actually have stuff getting signed, like, right now-ish? | 22:48 |
| SD69 | You do realize it's taken 4 months to get to where we are today. To think things are going to be proposed and resolved in 7 days is expecting too much I think. | 22:49 |
| SD69 | Mentalisttraceur: More or less, yes. I came into this thinking the major bugs was a blocker for us. | 22:49 |
| Woody14619 | Thus the question earlier. | 22:50 |
| Woody14619 | The concern is, once Nokia and HiFo signs this, they *can* just walk away. If they do so may depend on the people there... and the political environment inside Nokia, which none of us is privy too. | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fixing bugs is NOT a showstopper for signing of handover contract! pretty please! | 22:51 |
| Woody14619 | Doc: agreed. But again, qwazix seemed to state otherwise. Thus why Board is asking Council, since they are closer to what's going on (you in particular). | 22:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ohhhh! That's what my argument this entire time that we should proceed with the agreement to transfer now, even if it costs us in bug fixes, was about this entire time. I.e. I realize if they sign it they might likely just ignore the bug fixes, but I at least am fine with that risk. | 22:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | handover of assets to HiFo and handover of maintainership from Nemein to maemo techstaff are not strongly entangled | 22:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: ack | 22:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | same here | 22:53 |
| Woody14619 | To you they are not Docscrutinizer05, but I think Nokia (and perhapse Nemein?) may see them as such. | 22:54 |
| Woody14619 | So, it sounds like we have a concensus (with the possibly objection of qwazix) | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: that's speculations, which don't influence our further proceeding | 22:55 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, well, it looks like both DocScrutinizer05 and I agree that you should proceed with the agreement, and we can do our best to prod them about the bug fixes aside from that. | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 22:55 |
| Woody14619 | Great. :) I agree. Let's do it. | 22:55 |
| * MentalistTraceur looks at time. | 22:56 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all for Nokia it's a voluntary donation. not as if we could demand anything from them | 22:56 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: I can be free just about any time for a teleconference if needed. I can arrange fax capabilities if needed. | 22:56 |
| MentalistTraceur | So it basically took us a couple hours to realize that we were basically in majority agreement on the underlying question. | 22:57 |
| MentalistTraceur | (No wonder entities like U.S. Congress can't get anything done.) | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but we can *ask* if nokia is interested in how Nemein fulfilled their job | 22:57 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: we should wait for our third board member if he hasn't left us already | 22:57 |
| Woody14619 | I susspect quazix is not. But yes. Sadly, that happens a lot. | 22:57 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: I disagree. Either as 2 of 2, or 2 of 3, we have the authority to do this together. I'd rather not wait for a third to get around to deciding to hodl this up. | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: indeed :-/ | 22:58 |
| Woody14619 | We don't need the third member. It woudl be nice to get his input on it... Email him. If he answers, we'll know his response. If not, we should go ahead in his absense IMO. | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as long as he hasn't accepted appointment 'officially' you're a team of 2 anyway, no? | 23:00 |
| SD69 | There is a process for Board meetings. Action taken in contravention of it is null and void. | 23:01 |
| Woody14619 | It will probably require a teleconference and/or documents to be faxed/emailed and signed. Reguardless, we should set that gear in motion. | 23:01 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, and that process notes as long a a quarum is present, we can vote. | 23:01 |
| SD69 | And his status is unknown. I am embarrassed to ask him because of the negativity to his appointment. | 23:01 |
| Woody14619 | quarum of the Board right now is 2, be that of 2 or 3. | 23:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're just 2 guys, you could negotiate and get stuff done until monday morning | 23:02 |
| Woody14619 | I can ask if need be. I'm not embarased to do so. :) (And yes, I can be quite polite....) | 23:02 |
| SD69 | ...although people don't realize that no one from the community volunteered, so I thought I was lucky to find someone qualified and willing | 23:02 |
| SD69 | woody14619: I will send you the transfer agreement. | 23:03 |
| Woody14619 | Excelent. I can review it this weekend. That should give our 3rd time to reply. We should hold a voice meeting soon reguardless to concur on this an other things officially. | 23:04 |
| MentalistTraceur | SD69: I don't think people realized anyone was looking for volunteers, actually. | 23:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this channel has an official log with timestamp, when one of you picks up the phone, you're done with official appointment of woody | 23:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (sure SD69 will explain to me it's not that simple, but you get the idea ;-D ) | 23:05 |
| SD69 | Mentalisttraceur: sure, but didn't change the position I was left in | 23:05 |
| MentalistTraceur | I guess in retrospect it makes sense - vacancy opens up, people could've gone "hey, I don't mind filling it", but that's not always obvious to people. | 23:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | SD69: Oh, I understand. | 23:06 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: Is there a day this coming week that's better for you? My windows of unavailability are rather small. Thurs 2-3pm EST. (er, EDT now I guess?) | 23:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | Honestly, I was one of the people to express (albeit during meeting last week, not in the public thread yet) the sentiment, | 23:06 |
| Woody14619 | That flip happens this weekend in the US I believe. | 23:06 |
| SD69 | I am looking forward to scheduled meetings, since one of our dear departed didn't like that idea so much | 23:07 |
| MentalistTraceur | that just because he's an "outsider" doesn't mean he can't be a valuable board member or committed to the cause. | 23:07 |
| Woody14619 | Reguardless, even if Jim declines, we need to move on this... | 23:07 |
| Woody14619 | MentalistTraceur: the same sentements I expressed. In fact, he could be quite an asset, having worked on projects like this before. | 23:08 |
| kerio | we should probably send him a n900 | 23:08 |
| SD69 | MentalistTraceur: some of the comments were negative, unfortunately, might have scared him off | 23:09 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: has he been monitoring those? Is he even on tmo/irc? | 23:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: you got spare N900? | 23:09 |
| kerio | nope | 23:09 |
| * Woody14619 does... actually... | 23:09 | |
| Woody14619 | Not promissing anything, but.... | 23:10 |
| MentalistTraceur | On this topic of no-one-volunteered, then, just so that this is out there: IF Jim declines, and IF no one else better qualified (note, I am not managing to get meeting minutes compiled regularly, so I'm not that high on the 'qualified' list), I 'volunteer' for the position as well, although I strongly advise I be picked only as a last resort. | 23:10 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: I have no idea, but he emailed from PyCon to say he was in, and would contact me when he got back, but then silent for the last three days.... | 23:11 |
| MentalistTraceur | Also, I would seriously consider offering one of my N900s, but only one of mine actually fully works... | 23:12 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: So, let's signal our status and concerns to Nokia, e-mail that contract to me, and lets get this ball rolling. | 23:12 |
| MentalistTraceur | (...which is why I have multiples - they keep getting the 'all telephony disabled' errors) | 23:12 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: I'll send you my email mentioning the bug fixes and the contract | 23:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, on behalf of Council I think I can take the liberty to thank both of you Board members for offering up your time today to come to the meeting. | 23:14 |
| Woody14619 | MentalistTraceur: Both of mine are fully functional. If it comes down to it, I'll probably be willing to ship it if he accepts, just to get him in on the fun. | 23:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | It was really nice having you both here and available to answer questions. | 23:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | Since qwazix left and it seems we don't have any other specific council-relevant matters up for discussion: DocScrutinizer05, objections to formally closing the meeting? | 23:15 |
| Woody14619 | I plan on being here for the duration... Again, not a promise, but I will try to make them as I have over the past several months. | 23:15 |
| SD69 | Mentalisttraceur: thanks | 23:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope, roll it all up | 23:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks to everybody, particaularly board, for joining, and sorry for any harsh words, never meant personally | 23:16 |
| Woody14619 | Same here. | 23:16 |
| Woody14619 | Also, you all have contact info for me (via the intro e-mail). I put that out there for a reason. :) If something important comes up, don't be affraid to use it. (Well, be afraid of international SMS rates maybe, but e-mail is free. ;) | 23:17 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: you need to send me snail mail address for Board register purposes | 23:19 |
| *** MentalistTraceur has quit IRC | 23:19 | |
| Woody14619 | SD69: How public is that? | 23:19 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: we talking it goes in the records, or to a PA registry, or goes on the website... | 23:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2nd i'd guess | 23:20 |
| *** MentalistTraceur has joined #maemo-meeting | 23:20 | |
| Woody14619 | SD69: records/registry is one thing, websites... :P May use my business address if that's needed. ;) | 23:20 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: I'm not sure. definitely not on the website, does not get sent anywhere, but might have to be produced upon request or in audit | 23:21 |
| Woody14619 | Sure, that's fine. Sending now... | 23:21 |
| SD69 | bye everyone | 23:22 |
| Woody14619 | bye. :) Thanks again everyone! :) | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bye, rob | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks for joining | 23:22 |
| Woody14619 | OH! My second battery just went blue in the charger. :) I had thought it was drained to death... Happy! | 23:23 |
| *** SD69 has quit IRC | 23:23 | |
| MentalistTraceur | Right, so I got disconnected again, anyway, since Joerg agreed with closing meeting just as I got disconnected: meeting formally over. | 23:25 |
| * MentalistTraceur waves | 23:38 | |
| *** MentalistTraceur has left #maemo-meeting | 23:38 | |
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