IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2013-01-18

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*** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to "Council meetings every Friday @ 18:00 UTC | topics: see | livelog at"18:21
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DocScrutinizer05dunno when I seen last COBS meeting18:21
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Paliwhat happened with COBS?18:29
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Woody14619COBS got eatten by Nokia exploding, AFAIK.19:58
DocScrutinizer05hi Woody14619 :-)19:59
Woody14619X-Fade and Javispedro were working on it, and had it at about 90% just about the time all heck broke loose.19:59
* Woody14619 waves19:59
Woody14619Javis had work issues and had to bail, then X-Fade got pulled to do spindown on all Nokia projects...20:00
DocScrutinizer05hmm, MT, ivgalvez?20:06
qwazixMT just sent a mail that he'll be a bit late20:08
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DocScrutinizer05so let's wait for him?20:09
qwazix yep, he said about 15min20:09
qwazixso 5-10 more min20:10
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: could you spam the chan with a subject-post?20:14
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qwazix~~~ MEETING AGENDA ~~~20:14
qwazix1. Introduction for our new sysops20:14
qwazix2. fundraising20:14
qwazix a. Ovi account creation for HiFo and inclusion of tmo app for it20:14
qwazix b. Managing recurring donations20:14
qwazix c. Finding alt-routes for money20:14
qwazix3. Updating wiki20:14
qwazix4. Time schedule for further migration20:14
qwazix5. rDNS for to it, the response from ML about "delivery20:15
qwazixfailed" looks quite odd (Joerg)20:15
qwazix6. alternative mail addr for x-fade and ferenc too, since they also20:15
qwazixare "no relaying" on their mail addr (Joerg)20:15
DocScrutinizer05I'm happy to request dealing with 5. and 6. first: we got it sorted this afternoon. everything fine20:16
DocScrutinizer05done :-)20:16
kerioi've got a proposal for 2a and 2c20:16
kerio2a: what the hell, nobody goes on ovi store20:17
kerio2c: bitcoins have less fees, especially when transferring money cross-eu20:17
DocScrutinizer05cross or trans20:17
kerioalthough it's really a matter of moving the fees from the transfer itself to the conversion of bitcoins to and from real currencies20:18
keriobut hey, it's free to get a bitcoin address, so why not?20:18
* DocScrutinizer05 twiddles thumbs20:19
qwazixkerio, on the N9 everybody goes on ovi store, as there are no extras20:19
qwazixand there are millions of N9's out there most in the hands of people that never heard of maemo20:19
Woody14619Point of order:  Was there not something indicating that the OVI store was going away at some point for N9/N900?20:19
qwazixWoody14619, payment for apps for the N9 on china apparently has stopped20:19
thedead1440IMO listing on Store is good but the same version should be available for free on the forums too; the Store version can then be considered the "donate" version20:20
qwazixthedead1440, that is the idea20:20
DocScrutinizer05we should start...20:20
qwazixI understand all the above, but with 1eur registration fee20:20
Woody14619I'm thinking "the app" will probably be a simple repo installer and/or a link to TMO?20:20
qwazixeven if we sell one app it's a profit20:21
* Woody14619 nods. Someone in charge should start the meeting. :)20:21
qwazixWoody14619, the app will be the tmo app from bibek20:21
Woody14619Oh.. nice. :)20:21
Woody14619Don't use it myself, but hear good things about it.20:21
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qwazixYay! MT :)20:22
mentalisttraceurHello all. Sorry I'm late.20:23
DocScrutinizer05hi everybody! :-) let me announce we managed to move everything of * to new infra during this week (except repo, autobuilder, drop which are still pending). Many thanks to everybody involved, particularly Eero and Bergie of Nemein, Reggie as our long time tmo admin, chem|st as our new tmo admin which I officially welcome here, as well as many others who helped to move and check and sort issues. Backup Project driven by20:23
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440 and brkn gave us a safe fallback in case anything blew up, many thanks to them as well. Finally FIVE sysops approached council/me with offering their help in future management: wirr, xes, jyrjyr, khm, marcdeop. Alas jyrjyr stepped back from direct involvement yesterday, but still has quite a bit to offer from which could benefit. I tried to invite all sysops in spe to this meeting, alas it been a20:23
DocScrutinizer05tad on short call for some of them. anyway for now we don't have any infra under our control yet, so we'll give them all a gentle start by just listening here, and we'll negotiate details in the next weeks20:23
qwazixholy wall of text!20:23
kerioDocScrutinizer05: are the sysops going to be paid?20:24
DocScrutinizer05that's a detail to be decided on20:24
Woody14619I'm betting, so long as it's well divided and though out, that something could be worked out to make it a tax write off for most (as donated time?)20:25
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: could you repost the agenda please?20:26
qwebirc567519I just got dropped, damned mobile connection + web irc client.20:26
qwazix~~~ MEETING AGENDA ~~~20:26
qwazix 1. Introduction for our new sysops20:26
qwazix 2. fundraising20:26
qwazix  a. Ovi account creation for HiFo and inclusion of tmo app for it20:26
qwazix  b. Managing recurring donations20:26
qwazix  c. Finding alt-routes for money20:26
qwazix 3. Updating wiki20:26
qwazix 4. Time schedule for further migration20:26
qwebirc567519Last I got was the thing DocScrutinizer05 said right after I got on.20:27
qwazix 5. rDNS for to it, the response from ML about "delivery20:27
qwazix failed" looks quite odd (Joerg)20:27
qwazix 6. alternative mail addr for x-fade and ferenc too, since they also20:27
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qwazix are "no relaying" on their mail addr (Joerg)20:27
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DocScrutinizer05subjects 5. and 6. are moot, we fixed that this afternoon20:27
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qwazixmentalisttraceur, [20.27] <DocScrutinizer05> subjects 5. and 6. are moot, we fixed that this afternoon20:28
qwazixSo, shall we start?20:28
DocScrutinizer05thought we already did ;-)20:28
mentalisttraceurYeah, starting we shall. If we need the formality of me going "start"20:29
qwazixOk then, I take Doc's wall of text as introduction to our sysops20:29
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keriomentalisttraceur: say #meetingstart or something20:30
DocScrutinizer05So if the sysops-in-spe want to say hello to introduce themselves, go ahead20:30
mentalisttraceurI nominate Kerio as the official IRC tag for meeting start/end sayer.20:30
xes_hello there! sorry to be late, just a bad day at work (and not ended..)20:31
DocScrutinizer05hi xes_20:31
kerioi declare the meeting already started a while ago, with the agenda20:31
qwazixAs the the communications with sysops were mostly between me and Joerg, please, whoever present, do a short intro about yourselves20:31
DocScrutinizer05no CV please ;-)20:32
jyrjyrok, hi everyone. =) name is jyri, age 38 and i'm a entrepreneur with a long history in system administration / network security / hosting. although i drew back my application for the sys op position, i've still got something to offer regarding future hosting of the site(s).20:33
DocScrutinizer05oh well, they're  a tad shy, nothing bad with a sysop20:33
DocScrutinizer05jyrjyr: thanks and welcome! good to have you on board20:34
jyrjyrthanks, nice being here! =)20:34
xes_i'm here to give some help (if i can) much free time, but my job makes me work everyday with xen vm raid blades &co... if i can... i'm here20:34
PaliWoody14619, so COBS could be finished? Or is permanently dead?20:34
qwazixThank you xes_, appreciate it20:35
DocScrutinizer05xes_: great! We'll find a way for you to participate without permanent overload20:35
DocScrutinizer05Pali: please stay on agenda20:35
qwazixPali, let's add COBS to the agenda so that we can discuss it later on.20:35
DocScrutinizer05khm: you're listening? :-)20:36
qwazix~~~ appending COBS as number 7 on the agenda ~~~20:36
mentalisttraceurkhm is the other sysop applicant that sent us an email this week, right?20:36
xes_i'm feeling very impressed by the cv of khm...20:37
qwazixFellow council members and maemo contributors, anything you'd like to ask our sysops?20:37
DocScrutinizer05whatever, I see we got not all of our future sysops here - as already mentioned it been on short notice20:38
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kerioi have a question20:39
kerioxes_: would you rather fight 100 duck-sized horses or one horse-sized duck?20:39
qwebirc123740Hopefully no more drops. Someone PM me what I missed? (Last I got was xes_ saying he was impressed with khm's CV)20:39
qwebirc123740(this is MentalistTraceur again)20:39
DocScrutinizer05we'll just give them a heartly welcome and continue. I ask HiFo to check all of them so I can get approval for them on their sysop positions eventually20:39
Sc0rpiusit seems that we are not receiving mails when a TMO thread is updated20:40
DocScrutinizer05kerio: you are close to a kick20:40
qwazixAs this meeting has a pretty long agenda, I propose fixing a date for a special systems operation meeting where we start handing out responsibilities.20:40
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: I'll handle that20:41
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qwazixshall we move to number 2?20:41
DocScrutinizer05MT: please put it on action points of minutes20:41
qwazixShort intro20:42
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qwazixAfter the initial fundraiser done on tmo by DocScrutinizer, the gathering of funds has slowed down20:42
qwazixunless there's something I'm missing20:43
mentalisttraceurAction points? I'm not sure I know what you mean by that term.20:43
DocScrutinizer05i'm missing donations after 25.12.20:43
qwazixWe need some additional means of funding apart from paypal20:43
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: "ToDo:"20:43
kerioas in there were no donation after xmas, or as in there's no log of donations after xmas?20:43
mentalisttraceurOh, gotcha.20:43
qwazixas some people do not like PayPal and many others do not have access to it20:43
DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's the question I'd ask ivgalvez if he was around20:44
qwazixOne proposition is to add the forum reader app to ovi store20:44
mentalisttraceur(Speaking of, I've neglected meeting minutes for like a month now. Someone needs to give me a good kick in the arse about that every once in a while, it seems.)20:44
DocScrutinizer05any ideas about the "price" of such app?20:45
qwazixThe current maintainer of the app has agreed to this, and ovi store, due to extensive carrier billing support reaches many people who either do not have a credit card or cannot access paypal20:45
* DocScrutinizer05 always feels in mood for giving kicks in the arse ;-P20:45
qwazixNokia charges 30% of the price in fees, which is a lot, but we can clearly state that this is a means for donating if nothing else is possible20:45
qwazixMy idea is to price it at 10€20:46
qwazixWith the fluctuations of the price Nokia is automatically doing by country20:46
* DocScrutinizer05 runs to next average streetcorner thief and starts whining about evil nokia20:46 obtain more bucks the reader app should support also other forums to extend the number of potential users (it has already the be fixed, i think)20:47
* thedead1440 wonders if HiFo can negotiate a better deal with Nokia for Store apps wrt cutting Nokia's charges to anything <30%...20:47
qwazixwe can expect 5€/sale after deducting the fees20:47
qwazixSome people will even buy it because they want to use it, or because they prefer ovi to downloading apps from the internet20:48
DocScrutinizer05I'm pondering to abuse a secondary private bank account and dedicate it to HiFo donations20:48
DocScrutinizer05this would be Germany then20:48
qwazixthedead1440, I'd like HiFo to first open that account so that we can get going, and then try to negotiate anything better20:48
kerioDocScrutinizer05: and then send the money to HiFo every once in a while?20:49
qwazixevery day going by is lost income for that matter20:49
Woody14619Sounds like a good idea.  I could also put out another plug on the FB fan page (another 7K people, only about 50% overlap with TMO).20:49
DocScrutinizer05sounds good, Woody1461920:49
qwazixThe registration is a 5 minute job, and then restricted accounts can be created for developers to post apps on behalf of HiFo20:50
kerioqwazix: we could also accept donations via bitcoin, but i'm not entirely sure how easy it is to turn those into dollars, for a NFP20:50
qwazixwe can start with the forum reader and add more apps as we go, until Nokia shuts ovi for N9 down20:50
gregoaDocScrutinizer05: a bank account in EUR-land would indeed by helpful IMO20:50
gregoaanother idea might be to add Flattr buttons to the * pages20:50
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qwazixovi for N900 is a lost cause as it requires the application to run without external dependencies, so most of the apps can't work20:50
Woody14619I did a promo bit there to MKWN the week the lead story was about HiFo and donating, with web links.  So... Pushing an app would look different and/or still accomplish another round of hits I'd bet.20:51
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qwazixEnd of not-so-short intro.20:51
DocScrutinizer05who's going to do what?20:52
Woody14619qwazix: Couldn't a version be compiled against the stock SDK (PR1.3) SDK?  May be worth a request.20:52
mtraceurAs I tried to say before disconnecting, might not have gone through, am I understanding right that this app remains open source and free in repos, just also going up in Ovi?20:52
qwazixWoody14619, it uses qtcomponents so it's more than difficult20:52
DocScrutinizer05mtraceur: yep20:52
qwazixmtraceur, that is the idea20:52
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, as of who's doing what, the correct thing is that HiFo opens a Bank Account, registers an account with Nokia and gives council admin access20:53
* DocScrutinizer05 suggests to get a 10bucks- and a 20- and 50bucks-version of same app20:53
mtraceurDoes Nokia even allow things that won't work with stock SDK on Ovi?20:53
qwazixcouncil then gives restricter "upload only" access to select devs20:53
Woody14619ah.. hm... Well... Maybe a simpler app can also be made (that has a links to the forums/wiki/etc)20:53
qwazixmtraceur, no, that's why we're talking N9 ovi20:54
qwazixN900 ovi doesn't have enough traffic anyway20:54
Woody14619It doesn't now.. but some of those wanting to donate that have N900 w/o paypal, it may be the best option for them.20:54
Woody14619This is more about providing an alternative payment method than delivering an app...20:55
qwazixI have sent an email to board with no reply about the matter20:55
qwazixso maybe we could just do away with the correct way of doing things, and one of us opens the Nokia Store account20:55
DocScrutinizer05is council OK with me providing a bank account on Deutsche Bank?20:56
qwazixand then transfer funds to HiFo once in a while20:56
qwazixOk from me20:56
DocScrutinizer05minus my expense for the accoint20:56
DocScrutinizer05I'd use paypal fro transfer20:56
qwazixWoody14619, I agree with that, let's find a volunteer to build a simple app for N90020:56
qwazixShould be less than three hours work including the artwork20:57
mtraceurI'm not sure I want any personal accounts associated with HiFo dealings. How much effort would it take for HiFo to use its own?20:57
mtraceurOr start another if its current one doesn't work?20:57
qwazixaction item: find a volunteer to do a simple app for stock PR1.3 N900 app for inclusion in ovi20:57
DocScrutinizer05they are in USA, not exactly simple to get *any* bank account in EU20:57
qwazixmtraceur, AFAIK even now HiFo is using Cosimo's personal account20:58
DocScrutinizer05you know, you have to open your account by giving your ID data toprove you're an EU resident20:58
DocScrutinizer05ooh, cosimo is also EU resident, no?20:59
qwazixnot only id, bills etc20:59
mtraceurCan bank accounts associated with Ovi be changed eventually?20:59
Woody14619I believe Cosimo is in the process of setting up a US account with the foundations business ID.20:59
qwazixYes (99%) I can confirm this in a minute20:59
DocScrutinizer05changed? how?20:59
mtraceurDon't American devs use Ovi with their American accounts?21:00
mtraceurDocScrutinizer05: as in if we assign it to send money to your account now, but then can we reassign it to go to a hifo account later once that's set up?21:00
* DocScrutinizer05 tips left fingertips onto right palm: "T"21:01
qwazixBank details can be changed at any time, confirmed21:01
gregoawas DocScrutinizer05's account meant for the ovi app? I understood it as an independent proposal to collect donations via bank transfers from within EUR-land?21:02
qwazixIt is even possible that bank details can be entered at a later time and not during registration21:02
mtraceurOkay. Then I don't mind using DocScrutinizer05's account for this if it's a temporary measure.21:02
mtraceurOh. I might've missed that. I thought he was offering for Ovi.21:03
DocScrutinizer05gregoa: correct21:03
qwazixmtraceur, thanks, we can speed up this way until HiFo sorts the legalese21:03
DocScrutinizer05however... (/me sips his frozen Vodka)... I'd prefer to use Cosimo's account21:04
DocScrutinizer05if he's EU based like me21:04
qwazixLet's split the two for now21:04
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, do you agree to open up a HiFo Nokia Store account, and if necessary provide your bank account until HiFo sorts out21:05
DocScrutinizer05somebody got direct contact to Cosimo?21:05
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, Cosimo is using his paypal account for HiFo, I haven't seen any bank account published21:06
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I'd agree to use my bank account if Cosimo refuses to use his (after all he's HiFo cashier)21:06
DocScrutinizer05I'm not that fond of managing an Ovi account21:06
qwazixThere's not much to do, and you can always create more users to co-manage it21:07
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DocScrutinizer05well, then you can do that too, no? ;-)21:07
qwazixI can do it, but in case it asks for bank account I'll have to ask you21:08
DocScrutinizer05that's maybe even the better idea, have management of such account splitted, one manager plus one bank account owner, so both can control the other21:08
qwazixOk then, I'll open the Ovi account and ask for bank account info. AFAIK it doesn't ask for sensitive info21:09
DocScrutinizer05you'd know how much went to my account21:09
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DocScrutinizer05bank account data is not sensitive info of first category21:09
qwazixMails with the money transferred will go to HiFo or council anyway21:09
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DocScrutinizer05I'll forward via paypal and publish to HiFo and council via mail to the ML21:10
DocScrutinizer05so everybody can compare21:10
xeshere again...21:10
DocScrutinizer05hi xes :-d21:10
mentalisttraceur... maybe constant pinging of google will force tmobile to not screw this connection to the point of the IRC client disconnecting...21:11
qwazixAction item: I'll send an ultimatum mail to HiFo, that unless an ovi account is opened in the next week I'll open one with DocScrutinizer's account21:11
qwazixNext point: recurring donations21:12
DocScrutinizer05sub-subject: will we publish that bank account data for those who want to donate directly via money transfer in EU?21:12
qwazixyes sorry, forgot that21:12
mentalisttraceurqwazix - idk if it needs to be an 'ultimatum' like that, but sure.21:12
qwazixI'll be polite, I promise21:12
gregoapublishing the account data would make transfers definitively easier :)21:13
DocScrutinizer05I'll probably publish a URL pointing to a text file which has the data21:13
qwazixok with me, mentalisttraceur? ^^^21:13
* DocScrutinizer05 scrolls up to read agenda21:14
mentalisttraceurMaybe also put it on the wiki somewhere?21:15
mentalisttraceurOr the HiFo site?21:15
* DocScrutinizer05 waves to Woody1461921:15
mentalisttraceurBut either way, sure @ url to txt file.21:15
DocScrutinizer05good handover: wiki21:15
mentalisttraceur(Walking around inside cement building, might lose signal.)21:15
qwazixLet's skip the recurring donations thing because there's nothing we can do about it21:15
qwazixAny other ideas for income?21:16
gregoahas anyone an opinion on the idea of adding Flattr to the mix?21:16
qwazixwtf Flattr?21:16
DocScrutinizer05gregoa: draft a proposal please21:16
DocScrutinizer05since ^^^ qwazix21:16 online micro-payment.21:16 ofc21:16
* qwazix is more confused than before21:17
DocScrutinizer05could you elaborate how it works21:17
gregoaopen an account there, add buttons to webpages. flattr-users can then "flattr" you, i.e. transfer amount from the pre-paid funds to the project21:17
mentalisttraceurBy the way, everytime I lose connection I have to refresh page, so I lose all the history. So I'm useless for agenda-order remembering.21:18
DocScrutinizer05no worries21:18
qwazixgregoa, and how do you actually pay?21:18
gregoano idea how many n900 users us flattr bit even if there are just a few it doesn't cost anything and might bring some euros21:18
DocScrutinizer05gregoa: I don't see why we couldn't do that21:18
gregoaflattr also has subscriptions, i.e. recurring payments every month21:19
qwazixthat's good21:19
gregoaqwazix: the user clicks on the button, signs in with their flattr account and click confirm. the money is deducted from their pre-paid funds there (which can be charged via credit card)21:20
DocScrutinizer05gregoa: could you cooperate with council (probably on IRC or via mail) and help creating such flattr account etc?21:20
qwazixgregoa, thanks21:20
qwazixMany open source causes also have pledgie21:21
DocScrutinizer05gregoa: maybe even completely create the whole thing and then hand it over to council/HiFo?21:21
qwazixNo idea how it works, but I see the banner21:21
gregoaDocScrutinizer05: sure, if there are questions I'm happy to help. but it needs to be done by someone with a HiFo bank acocunt/credit card, and someone needs to add the HTML/javascript for the buttons on *.m.o21:21
kerioHiFo or council could also create a mtgox account, to accept bitcoins21:21
khmDocScrutinizer05: sorry, got pulled into a meeting at work.21:21
DocScrutinizer05gregoa: the latter we can manage21:21
gregoaDocScrutinizer05: and the first one is "create an account in 30 seconds" :)21:22
DocScrutinizer05khm: don't worry, you didn't miss anything relevant yet21:22
gregoaDocScrutinizer05: and ask them if qualifies for the non-profit programme, which means less or no fees (usually they take 10%)21:22
DocScrutinizer05mhm, I think qwazix will be interested to do this21:22
qwazixI can do that yes21:23
DocScrutinizer05ok, are we done with subj #2?21:23
khmflattr is some kind of pyramid scheme21:23
* qwazix goes to write down some things before his buffer overflows21:23
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: setting tags in irclog is a convenient method21:24
DocScrutinizer05###actionpoint: create flattr account -> qwazix21:24
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, I'll do with google tasks for now21:25
DocScrutinizer05subj #3: wiki edits21:25
DocScrutinizer05our wiki is terribly out of date, due to long time r/o21:25
DocScrutinizer05several council pages need update to the current state of things21:26
mentalisttraceurAm I still connected?21:27
qwazixmentalisttraceur, I see you21:27
mentalisttraceur(Yes I am)21:27
DocScrutinizer05khm: (we're offering alternative ways to donate, for those who don't like flattr. anyway we might need to put emphasis on that point you raised. qwazix will investigate)21:27
mentalisttraceur(If I see the message make it to main screen, I know it's not dropped me yet; but thanks qwazix.)21:28
DocScrutinizer05who's volunteering to update wiki's council pages?21:28
gregoa(as a PS: -> "Flattr Non-profit, Charity & No-fee Accounts)21:28
mentalisttraceurIs it just me or is qwazix getting most of the work lol?21:29
mentalisttraceurI can do wiki.21:29
DocScrutinizer05great, I hoped you'd say this :-D21:29
qwazix"Proof that you are a registered charity/non-profit"21:29
qwazixdo we have that?21:29
DocScrutinizer05err NFP maybe21:29
khmgregoa: *users* can't get no-fee accounts.21:30
DocScrutinizer05charity for sure not21:30
qwazixI'll ask Rob21:30
gregoakhm: the account should be for maemo/HiFo anyway21:30
DocScrutinizer05so we already are done with #3 ?21:30
qwazixThese will normally not get a no-fee account - Churches, Political parties, Sports, Culture, Events, Exhibitions, *Software.*21:30
mentalisttraceurWe can also be a church and political party, really...21:31
DocScrutinizer05will NOT get...21:31
mentalisttraceurChurch of FOSS. FOSS Party. :P21:31
khmqwazix: it also says "Any registered non-profit or charity can get these accounts."21:31
qwazixyes, that's why I posted it21:31
gregoaI'd propose to just ask them ...21:32
khmI think software projects who are not offical NFPs are SOL21:32
DocScrutinizer05can you guys sort that later?21:32
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qwazixkhm that sentence is not under "no-fee" account21:32
qwazixjust an account that shows you are a non-profit21:33
khmah, I see21:33
qwazixyes, ok let's move on21:33
DocScrutinizer05#3 --- done21:33
DocScrutinizer05right, mentalisttraceur?21:33
DocScrutinizer05ping me if you need links to the pages that need edit, I might know a few of them21:34
DocScrutinizer05ooh, and we need "pictures" of council noses21:34
mentalisttraceurBook Of FOSS; Chapter Linux, 2:13 - And thus spake Linus, let there be a free kernel, and lo, a free kernel there was, and it had source that was of the open variety, and it was good.21:34
mentalisttraceurAnyway, yeah will do DocScrutinizer05. Also, noses, wait what?21:35
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: so we could jump to #421:35
qwazixthere's a page in tmo highlighting obsolete wiki pages21:35
DocScrutinizer05even better21:35
DocScrutinizer05#4. Time schedule for further migration21:36
qwazix(yay, new tmo for me too :) )21:36
Woody14619qwazix: It should list itself, as it is also out of date. ;)21:36
DocScrutinizer05err qwazix, that's not exactly about council-related wiki pages, no?21:37
* qwazix crashed: infinite loop21:37
mentalisttraceurTime schedule: Now. Motion resolved. #5? /jk21:37
DocScrutinizer05#4. Time schedule for further migration21:38
mentalisttraceurWhat still needs to be moved?21:38
DocScrutinizer05we need the "rx300" at least 2 weeks before everything drops on our feet payment wise, so we can make familiar with sysop tasks on those, get resource requirement statistics, prepare selling them off as soon as possible etc21:39
mentalisttraceurAs I understood it all of *m.o was now with Nemein? Or is this the NEXT migration?21:39
DocScrutinizer05this would mean mid of February21:39
mentalisttraceur(To cheaper and more permanent hosting?)21:39
DocScrutinizer05the plan so far is: Nemein right now has everything on xen-grid VMs21:40
DocScrutinizer05that's interim21:40
DocScrutinizer05Nemein gets the "RX300" irons21:40
DocScrutinizer05Nemein moves the VM to those servers21:40
DocScrutinizer05or we need to set up those VMs there, if Nemein refuses to do that21:41
mentalisttraceurK, so this is time schedule for move from interim->permanent. (I thought due to the wording that further Nokia->interim was meant)21:41
DocScrutinizer05Nemein provides the VM disk images and we start the 'move' from xen-grid to our own hardware21:41
qwazixWe need to decide if we sell first21:42
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qwazixNo point in moving to the iron if we're gonna sell it21:42
keriowill nemein buy the rx300s back?21:42
kerioor do we need to look for a different buyer?21:42
DocScrutinizer05eventually Nemein drops the whole bunch of rocks on our feet (they nevertheless will help by "knowledge transfer) and we need to stand on our own feet21:42
qwazixAlso the latest thing mashiara proposed was not RX300 but some kind of blade servers fitting both into 2U21:42
mentalisttraceurDoesn't jyri's latest offer have to do with this? (I don't have the e-mail at hand)21:43
DocScrutinizer05that's why ticks around "RX300"21:43
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: yes21:43
DocScrutinizer05we need to find best offer to sell that heavy iron21:44
DocScrutinizer05jyrjyr is interested21:44
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: sure, probably moving directly from xen-grid VM to our own new server hosting was the best alternative21:45
DocScrutinizer05by that time, we need the help of all our sysop-volunteers we can get21:45
keriowill we keep the hosting on nemein?21:45
DocScrutinizer05most definitely not, though they haven't sent a quotation for that option21:46
xesone xen grid is very different from 2 single servers... probably there will be issues with the storage21:46
DocScrutinizer05right now it's 95% probable that we move to Hetzner21:46
jyrjyrpart of my offer is, i can provide you with hosting services after buying the hardware21:46
kerioneat, so we *could* keep our own hardware?21:47
jyrjyras a technical note, in my opinion the number of virtual machines could be reduced significantly by some careful planning21:47
DocScrutinizer05kerio: nope we wont, own hardware creates own service needs21:47
DocScrutinizer05jyrjyr: that's already been decided21:48
DocScrutinizer05we will consolidate as soon as we got the manpower for that21:48
DocScrutinizer05Nemein already did a great job on consolidation21:48
jyrjyrkerio, if you refer to what i said, then in a way yes - the site would be running on the same hardware although i would be buying the hw from hf and providing the maintenance. these are separate issues though; i'm interested in the hardware whether or not you're interested in being hosted there.21:49
DocScrutinizer05what we need now is somebody taking responsibility in planning the technical details of the lots of work we face during the next 4 weeks21:50
jyrjyrthe work being planning the consolidation and further steps?21:51
DocScrutinizer05I suggest we are discussing this in a separate circle during the next week, where we will invite those who can contribute21:51
DocScrutinizer05jyrjyr: yes21:51
jyrjyrsounds good21:51
Woody14619As noted before, I'm happy to throw time at some of the system infra stuff.  I'm reasonably informed about midguard and some of the underlying stuff running the base site. (Voting machine, wiki infra, etc)21:51
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: excellent21:52
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: be our guest then on that meeting to be scheduled21:52
Woody14619will be happy to.21:52
DocScrutinizer05we need to get in contact with HiFo to finally get some grunting from them about what they are willing to do regarding the irons21:53
Woody14619fyi: my account is going away.  For now, my primary should be my current nick at yahoo.21:53
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: please ping me when I maybe forget about inviting you21:53
mentalisttraceurSeems like something we should do sooner than later (get in touch with HiFo). After all, they hold the legal power in the organization.21:54
DocScrutinizer05also this is an explicit invitation to our new sysops to join21:54
DocScrutinizer05please mail council CC joerg@o.o subj: migration meeting. This way I won't miss any of you21:55
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: absolutely21:55
DocScrutinizer05quite unfortunate ivgalvez is missing today21:55
mentalisttraceurAlso, I would be interested in sitting along for the aforementioned meeting. Not sure how much I could contribute, but it's not like I'm a newb when it comes to linux and stuff, and just in general, I'd like to read what's said.21:56
Woody14619Is he still recovering? (Ivan)21:56
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: you're council, you're supposed to join anyway ;-D21:56
DocScrutinizer05not mandatory, but...21:56
mentalisttraceurAh, gotcha.21:56
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: he should be well again21:57
khmDocScrutinizer05: I get bounce notifications from the council@ address.21:58
mentalisttraceurThen I'll gladly be there. Woody14619: I thought he recovered, if you mean the illness he had recently, I think this is a separate thing. (Or a resugrance of that, I guess...)21:58
DocScrutinizer05now I'm basicall ythru with my tour de force, and probably i'm afk in 5min21:58
mentalisttraceurRegarding meeting agenda items 5 & 6; those were declared moot, right? Because they were about mailing list issues, and those are supposed to be solved now?21:59
mentalisttraceurThough khm just said the council address is still not working apparently?21:59
DocScrutinizer05Jaffa: next MWKN: we got 1st step of migration accomplished 90%, major issue: repository (due to massive load from ~40,000 N900 trying to update)22:00
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: (5&6) yep, moot22:00
DocScrutinizer05ooh, still not working??22:01
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, only 40.000?22:01
DocScrutinizer05CC joerg AT openmoko DOT org on any mail to council please22:01
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: yep, only 40k22:01
DocScrutinizer05according to x-fade22:02
qwazixwhere are the others? Why aren't they dirt cheap to buy?22:02
mentalisttraceurRepo issue presumably not helped I'd bet by the fact that the default auto-update-check time is like 24hrs. (I've set mine to like, some amount of months; else device crawled to a halt or wasted mobile internet, or both)22:02
qwazixAre they gathering dust in drawers?22:02
kerioqwazix: they kinda are22:02
kerioDocScrutinizer05: how did he check?22:02
DocScrutinizer05kerio: akamai statistics22:02
keriofor what? extras or mr0/apps?22:03
DocScrutinizer05X-Fade has secret sources of wisdom ;-)22:03
qwazixEither or x-fade is wrong...22:04
DocScrutinizer05well, 24 * 60 * 60 / 40000 =~0.522:04
mentalisttraceurqwazix: if you're talking about download stats, don't those count each redownload and upgrade as a new dl?22:04
DocScrutinizer05so one device running update every other second22:04
DocScrutinizer05shouldn't kill us, *usually*22:05
qwazixmentalisttraceur, even like that22:05
qwazixthat should mean that "every" N900 user has downloaded each app 4 times...22:05
xesusually...inside a xen grid with a separate storage..22:05
DocScrutinizer05xes: yes, sure22:06
DocScrutinizer05the current setup is interim anyway22:06
qwazixbb-power 251k downloads. Maemeemo theme a pretty new package, 20k downloads22:06
mentalisttraceurqwazix, well, how many updates have we had, for, say, busybox-power? 20-30?22:06
DocScrutinizer05please, we don't need download statistics here, since those don't mean a thing22:06
DocScrutinizer05auto-updates != downloads22:07
xesDocScrutinizer05: we need some detailed specs to evealuate if there are enough money to buy what we need22:07
DocScrutinizer05kerio mentioned not even the file list gets downloaded when the "tag" hasn't changed22:07
DocScrutinizer05xes: we don't buy anyrhing, that's the nice thing in it22:08
kerioyeah, it's a matter of checking the last-changed http header22:08
kerioor something22:08
mentalisttraceurDocScrutinizer05: I think he mentions downloads because he's using that amount  to try to gauge hnow many N900's there are. Also folks, my battery's low, I'm gonna head from where I am to home. Which means I'll be less active, but hopefully will last idling until then.22:08
kerioyou can test it, run apt-get update twice22:08
kerionotice how much is downloaded the second time22:08
keriotwice in a row, i mean22:08
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: nope, that been about daily updates22:09
DocScrutinizer05I'll call it a day - think today I *really* earned it22:09
DocScrutinizer05so... any more questions to me, or am I allowed to wave and wander off?22:11
Woody14619mail sent DocScrutinizer0522:11
mentalisttraceurAny objections to meeting being officially done?22:11
DocScrutinizer05thanks to everybody for joining this very important meeting, CYA next days22:11
Woody14619may be off as well, work is becoming distracting. ;)  Thanks all.  Amazing we've pulled this all off...22:12
Woody14619Now just to keep it afloat. :)  Night all!22:12
DocScrutinizer05mentalisttraceur: shoot it down!22:12
mentalisttraceurOkay, meeting officially over.22:12
mentalisttraceurGood work everyone. Espcially those who do things, unlike me where I just join IRC and send emails.22:13
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Woody14619Will return Monday, noonish EST.22:13
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* mentalisttraceur waves22:17
mentalisttraceurI'll be disconnecting now too. Might be back on later to bug more knowledgeable people with technical questions.22:17
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