IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-12-14

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MentalistTraceurAlright, greetings all.19:59
DocScrutinizer05hi20:00
MentalistTraceurOh hey, our user names are the same length.20:00
DocScrutinizer05hehe20:00
MentalistTraceurAnyway, qwazix, you there?20:00
qwazixhi, I'll be with you in a min20:02
MentalistTraceurAlright, cool.20:02
DocScrutinizer05time to prepare a coffe for me20:02
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MentalistTraceurI've already prepared all the relevant fluids for this meeting (though since I'm always connected with one of my N900s for these, I can always get more without going afk. So, I believe the appropriate thing to say here is "mwa-ha-ha-ha" or somesuch.)20:04
MentalistTraceurAhem, greetings ivgalvez.20:04
ivgalvezhi20:04
DocScrutinizer05dang, milk frozen20:04
MentalistTraceurWe're just waiting for qwazix to indicate readiness to begin and for Doc to make his coffee, and then we shall begin.20:05
qwazixI'm here, apologize for the delay20:05
qwazix(food is safe in the oven :) )20:05
MentalistTraceurNo problem, I'm used to IRC meetings where the actual matter at hand doesn't get discussed until 30+ minutes after scheduled starting time...20:06
MentalistTraceur(Not previous Council meetings, obviously, I mean other meetings elsewhere)20:07
qwazixhehe, it's easy to drift away. What is there to discuss?20:07
MentalistTraceurAnyway, who has what for the agenda?20:07
DocScrutinizer05I'm not blocking20:07
qwazixI have the dead end with the CC awards20:07
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders hot potatoes20:08
MentalistTraceur*Bangs Gavel* Meeting officially in session, or something. Commencing the "figure out if there's anything to discuss" stage.20:08
qwazixNobody has anything else?20:10
DocScrutinizer05topics: coding Competition devices absolute deadend from Nokia's side20:10
qwazixAnything tmo related?20:10
DocScrutinizer05topics: maemo infra migration absolute deadend from Nokia's side20:10
MentalistTraceurqwazix: did the board also try their contacts? You asked ivgalvez to see if he could reach anyone?20:10
MentalistTraceur..iirc of course.20:10
qwazixivgalvez reported no reply and that he doesn't have any more contacts20:11
ivgalvezI have just discovered a new Nokia contact20:11
ivgalvezbut no clue if it would be useful20:11
* qwazix sighs with semi-relief20:11
MentalistTraceurAlso, I actually have things to agenda...ize, for once. I mentioned this on the forum, so since ivgalvez is here, I might as well bring it up here: thoughts on the idea of the Hildon Foundation regularly reporting to the community how much money was made, how much was spent on what, and how much is in reserve?20:11
ivgalvezI will retry anyway20:11
qwazixSomeone on tmo suggested sending a mail to Elop20:12
qwazixif nothing else works maybe?20:12
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur, zejothka is already reporting the progress in donations via paypal20:12
MentalistTraceurOoo, yay, another CC lead. (Maybe we'll get those CC devices delivered sometime within our term after all)20:12
ivgalvezand we have just set up a bank account20:12
ivgalvezall donations status will be published through hildonfoundation.org20:13
DocScrutinizer05thumbs up20:14
ivgalveznow we haven't spent any money yet, we need to buy the vBulletin licence20:14
ivgalvezand then most of expenses will go for TMO hosting20:14
DocScrutinizer05somebody (thedead1440?) mentioned you can get 40% off vBul licence with coupons or sth20:14
qwazixI'll make a banner for donations to post up on tmo. I can do an iframe with a bar with amount and goal if there's somewhere we can pull the data from.20:14
ivgalvezas maemo.org migration is going through a different way atm20:14
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: really? I have missed that!20:15
ivgalvezqwazix, please comment directly with zejothka20:15
MentalistTraceur*Nod* All good things - I'm just wondering if there could be a monthly (for example) report published to the community at large from the board, saying how much money went where each month, and what the aftermath financially was for HF for that month.20:15
qwazixivgalvez, ok20:16
qwazixMentalistTraceur, +120:16
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur +120:16
ivgalvezwill comment that20:16
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: there seems to be a large misconception regarding hosting. Hosting is friggin 'cheap' (like 50EUR/month for a really powerful server with no data traffic limit[!]), it's the administration that costs money20:16
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, I meant that most of our incoming expenses (that doesn't mean to be too much) will go for TMO hsoting20:17
qwazixI still feel that a 50?/m server will not be enough for tmo20:17
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: why is that?20:17
ivgalvezbecuase for maemo.org we don't need to pay hosting yet20:18
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: board already gave up on hosting maemo.org?20:18
ivgalveznope20:18
ivgalvezNokia will fund for two months hosting at Nemein20:18
ivgalvezsop we won't have expenses for that during the next two months20:19
ivgalvezonly for TMO20:19
DocScrutinizer05yeah, fine. and after that time we (you/board) are bankrupt within one month or less, when *you* have to pay for that hosting20:19
ivgalvezthat's a different question20:19
ivgalvezobviously we won't go that way20:20
DocScrutinizer05that's a very pressing question, since it's *now* that Nemein is buying and setting up that "rolls royce"20:20
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: we are worknig on that20:21
DocScrutinizer05and it seems Nokia is not really willing to give the full control over the servers to board, rather they like to keep nemein in command20:21
ivgalvezbut right now it's more pressing that we have a volunteer for vBulletin and forums administration (chemist) but none for sysadmin20:21
ivgalvezto start the migration we need a sysadmin20:22
DocScrutinizer05the server hw Nokia supposedly advised Nemein to buy costs 2500...10000EUR *per* *server*20:22
qwazixenough to host maemo.org for years20:23
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: we'll see20:23
MentalistTraceurSide-question: what about the Maemo trademark(s?); does the HF currently hope to get any rights to use them beyond the hosting of the infrastructre.20:23
DocScrutinizer05if board would get that money from Nokia instead, you could affor to rent several dedicated servers and pay a professional admin for a whole year20:23
ivgalvezthat's being worked out with Nokia legal department20:23
ivgalvezthat would take time20:24
ivgalvezbut in the meantime we have permission to use it20:24
MentalistTraceurs/infrastructre./infrastructure?/20:24
DocScrutinizer05you'll have to face the fact that you need a professional admin anyway. I think we already agreed on that20:24
DocScrutinizer05Nokia thinks Nemein will do this role20:25
ivgalvezright now, we need a sysadmin for TMO migration and adminstration, which is unrelated to Nemein and maemo.org20:25
DocScrutinizer05but both Nokia and Nemein think like big business, not like community on starving20:25
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, that!20:25
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: absolutely not, it's totally related20:26
ivgalvezif we need to add that cost to hosting, then our expenses on TMO will go beyond thos 50 bucks you were talking about20:26
DocScrutinizer05that's what I'm talking about20:26
MentalistTraceurOh, qwazix, when this discussion thread is over, did you want to re-bring-up the Nexus 7 now that we have a full (minus the always absent member) council, unlike last meeting when it was just us two?20:27
DocScrutinizer05integrate tmo into general maemo.org infra, and get ONE admin to do the heavy lifting20:27
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, right now it's just the opposite20:27
ivgalvezfirst we move TMO20:27
qwazixMentalistTraceur, I'd like that, but with all that money being gathered I don't know if it's good to confuse people with various goals, but I'd like to discuss it for the future anyway20:28
DocScrutinizer05no, first you get a server. Either you get that server in a size and at a location where you can use it for general maemo.org infra later, or you're screwed20:28
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, what's the difference if tmo server is in the US and MO server in europe?20:29
DocScrutinizer05also you don't want to find a professional admin now for tmo, and another one later for maemo.org20:29
qwazixthere will be little synergy anyway20:29
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: how is there little synergy when all those services run on one dedicated server in VM?20:30
qwazixI don't think that a 50buck server can even hold tmo, let alone add a vm for other services20:30
DocScrutinizer05even if they run on 2 or 3 servers on same hoster, you still have synergy20:30
qwazixWe also don't want tmo to drag down other things with it20:31
MentalistTraceurI think, personally, right now the goal should be "switch everything to our control and keep it working" first and foremost, and then once that's done, we can figure out how to rearrange the infra (merge what's hosted where, etc). I agree that in the long term, it of course would be better to put tmo on the same servers as everything else - but in the time we have left, do we have the time to try to integrate t20:31
MentalistTraceurhem currently?20:31
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: wut? a 32GB RAM octocore 2TB storage server can't hold tmo?20:31
qwazixespecially the autobuilder which if crashes can very well end up in an inconsistent state20:31
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: (drag down) that's why you run stuff in VMs20:32
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, even if the cpu is enough, (which I feel is barely), we will also have a bandwidth problem20:32
Stskeepsfwiw, we run mer and nasty builds at 600 eur/month20:32
Stskeepsand lots of spare bw20:32
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: nonsense20:32
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur, that's right20:33
qwazixMaybe. I'm not so experienced, I just run one of those servers (last year's model, 12gb ram and 4core) and it chokes at about 1000 concurrent users20:33
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: (which I feel is barely) what do you need to feel CPU is enough? a cray?20:33
qwazixvery light news site20:33
ivgalvezStskeeps, which is your hosting provider?20:34
Stskeepshetzner20:34
DocScrutinizer05hetzner20:34
DocScrutinizer05what else20:34
qwazixofc we can try and see, and load balance to another one if it's not ok...20:34
ivgalvezdo they admin the servers?20:34
DocScrutinizer05bwahaha20:35
DocScrutinizer05sure, for 1000/month20:35
DocScrutinizer05you don't get managed server where you could install e.g. autobuilder20:35
DocScrutinizer05they only admin your server when it's their standard setup20:35
Stskeepswe have a band of volunteers, and hw is managed by them, very stable20:35
Stskeepsso if stuff breaks they replace20:36
ivgalvezStskeeps, thanks20:36
DocScrutinizer05hw is of course managed by hetzner, but not when you book colocaqtion20:36
DocScrutinizer05with colocation (the shite Nokia offers) *we* drive there and replace stuff20:36
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, can we focus?20:37
DocScrutinizer05the focus is: FIRST get a professional designing the whole shit, since *none* of us has a clue really20:38
DocScrutinizer05SECOND get ONE server20:38
DocScrutinizer05third move tmo20:38
qwazixtotally agree20:39
qwazixhow much would a professional ask for such consultancy?20:39
DocScrutinizer05right now Nemein is deciding on design, and they have no limit whatsoever on what it might cost20:39
DocScrutinizer054 digits20:40
ivgalvezTMO migration cannot be linked with the rest of maemo.org at this moment20:40
DocScrutinizer05per month, initially20:40
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: why?20:40
MentalistTraceurI would say first we need to get everything running on interim solutions for the next few months, which would give us enough time to actually do the things you mentioned.20:41
MentalistTraceurAm I correct in having understood that we can't move the TMO database out of the US jurisdiction without getting into data/privacy/whatever laws mess?20:41
DocScrutinizer05that's nonsense20:41
MentalistTraceurWhich part?20:41
DocScrutinizer05everybody 'moves tmo out of US' every day, by simply reading the web pages it displays20:41
ivgalvezbecause services are administrated by Nemein at Logica servers and first they need to migrate from there, then design a final solution for the whole infrastructure that we could afford20:41
DocScrutinizer05if there's *any* privacy data in this whole thing, DROP IT!20:42
ivgalvezso please, focusing in the initial issue to be fixed, which is TMO migration20:42
MentalistTraceurDoc, you know as well as I do that the technological realities of data transfer/storage, and the legalities there-of, are often incongruent.20:42
ivgalvezwe need either to hire a sysadmin with the hosting provider or a volunteer20:42
qwazixivgalvez, why move things twice and not use the paid moving service to move wherever we want?20:42
DocScrutinizer05ok, then I'm out of business, since that's insane concept20:42
ivgalvezqwazix, can you ellaborate?20:43
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: +120:43
qwazixyou just said that services must migrate from logica to nemein and then to infra we can afford20:44
qwazixif I understood correctly that's two moves20:44
DocScrutinizer05I give up, maybe qwazix can explain stuff so it makes sense to others. I obviously can't20:44
qwazixfrom which we'll pay only the second one?20:44
qwazix(first is paid by nokia)20:44
ivgalvezfirst movement is to get things out from Logica, that's a must or everything goes down20:45
qwazixwhy not use that paid 'service' to move to our infra instead of to nemein20:45
DocScrutinizer05exactly20:45
qwazixbut we can buy 10 hetzner servers today with the money we've got20:45
qwazixand consolidate in the coming months20:46
qwazixs/buy/rent/20:46
DocScrutinizer05:nod:20:46
ivgalvezNokia pays the bills they want20:46
qwazixand move out directly to hetzner20:46
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: because they already noticed board has not the faintest clue, so they told Nemein to get stuff done20:47
qwazixI don't know what to say...20:47
ivgalvezcurrent infra cannot be move to a different place in just two weeks20:48
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: sorry, no offense intended20:48
ivgalvezthat's what we are told20:48
ivgalvezso first is to move current infra out of Logica20:48
ivgalvezthen trim down the nonsense that we are using20:48
ivgalvezwhich atm is brutally expensive20:48
ivgalvezNokia will pay for that process20:49
qwazixehm, that doesn't make sense20:49
DocScrutinizer05because of bloated design done by Nokia and Nemein it's expensive20:49
ivgalvezindeed20:49
qwazixif it can't move in 2wks how it's gonna move out of logica20:49
ivgalveznow a proper design is being worked by Nemin20:49
DocScrutinizer05and NO, nokia obviously is NOT paying for downsizing20:49
ivgalvezhonestly we are going nowhere with this discussion20:50
DocScrutinizer05and as explained above Nemein has not the faintest interest in doing a proper design20:50
DocScrutinizer05by any board's POV of "proper"20:50
DocScrutinizer05yep, we're obviously going nowhere since no arguments however benevolent are going thru20:51
DocScrutinizer05that's why I'm out again20:51
qwazixI still can't understand why it's easier to move to Nemein than anywhere else20:51
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: it isn't20:52
DocScrutinizer05it's just Nokia has a contract with Nemein already20:52
ivgalvezI don't mean that it's easier. Nemein is the only one authorised to access Logia servers for that purpose, and Nokia has other services running in the same machines20:52
qwazixnow that is something that makes sense20:52
ivgalvezso all Nokia and Maemo stuff has to be retired from Logica20:53
qwazixq: Can't nemein be paid to transfer things to servers we designate20:53
qwazix?20:53
ivgalvezthat could be a solution20:53
qwazixas many as they want20:53
DocScrutinizer05so Nemein can upload those friggin 2TB total storage of those servers to $anywhere20:53
qwazixand we downsize later20:53
DocScrutinizer05in one day20:53
DocScrutinizer05move done20:53
qwazixserver4you has an option with no setup fee20:53
qwazixwe snatch 10 of those servers, get everything on them and in the next few months dismiss half of them20:54
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: ack, except one server is enough20:54
ivgalvezqwazix, OK, who will do that?20:54
DocScrutinizer05storage wise20:54
qwazixeven if it is, IMO the only way to accept this proposal is to offer them whatever it's easier for them20:55
qwazixthat is 1-to-1 what they have now20:55
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: your professional ADMIN20:55
ivgalvezwell right now we need a proffesional admin (as we don't have any volunteers like Mer) for TMO migration20:56
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: they will upload a disk image, backup, or whatever20:56
qwazixivgalvez, the idea is they do it (just as they would move to their own hardware, move to our choise of hw)20:56
DocScrutinizer05they won't move the system20:56
ivgalvezthen, once we have real control over maemo.org services, we would decide about that20:56
qwazixthey wont?20:56
ivgalvezwe could move everithing to where we host TMO or the other way around20:57
DocScrutinizer05well, unless you tell them they are admins of all those servers now, and those servers have same OS and size and whatnot20:57
qwazix> <ivgalvez> Nokia will pay for that process ---- that didn't mean moving the system? just the 2tb?20:57
DocScrutinizer05the 2TB include the system, just as a backup or DD file20:57
DocScrutinizer05dd20:57
ivgalvezhaven't you seen the list of machines and services20:58
qwazixofc, I meant the process of setting it up again20:58
ivgalvezcurrently running?20:58
DocScrutinizer05according to that internal paper total storage of maemo.org is 1.95TB20:58
qwazixyes, they are almost all vm's20:58
qwazixeasy to move20:58
ivgalvezsplitted in a lot of different systems20:58
DocScrutinizer05:shrug:20:58
ivgalvezqwazix, easy to move if you have access to that20:59
qwazixofc20:59
DocScrutinizer05a few vmware files on master server20:59
DocScrutinizer05backup of master of course includes the VMs20:59
qwazixone way or the other we need a sysadmin20:59
qwazixyesterday21:00
ivgalvezDoc, that's great, really but you are not helping21:00
ivgalvezthanks qwazix21:00
qwazixSo, anybody got an idea about the fees of a professional sysadmin?21:01
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: I already noticed that I obviously can't help you21:01
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, if we get an admin it will be a lot easier to push our (maemo way) way in the migration21:02
qwazixbecause we'll have the answer to the probable "who's gonna do it" question21:02
qwazixso let's solve that, and I think that ivgalvez has understood our concerns21:03
DocScrutinizer05[2012-12-14 19:38:22] <DocScrutinizer05> the focus is: FIRST get a professional designing the whole shit, since *none* of us has a clue really21:03
ivgalvezof course I have understood, but I'm absolutely unable to do anything else21:03
ivgalvezI've been reclaiming to get access to maemo infra since more than 6 months now21:04
DocScrutinizer05well, then transfer 984$ to Reggie to pay his server 2 months longer21:04
DocScrutinizer05since right now all of you are obviously in panic mode21:05
qwazixplease, don't be destructive21:05
DocScrutinizer05that's absolutely non-destructive21:05
DocScrutinizer05that's the most sane suggestion since weeks21:05
ivgalvezif we cannot migrate it in time, of course we will try to arrange more time, but that doesn't solve any problem, as the migration would be needed sooner or later21:06
DocScrutinizer05well, no, suggesting one month would be the most sane21:06
qwazixwhat will we gain with one month more?21:06
DocScrutinizer05we gain enough time to negotiate with Nemein21:06
ivgalvezand I don't see that we will have a free sysadmin in one month21:06
DocScrutinizer05and Nokia21:06
DocScrutinizer05and set up a proper server21:07
DocScrutinizer05find an admin21:07
qwazixLet me suggest something else21:07
ivgalvezor we set up a proper server in the US for TMO, and then move the rest of maemo.org there21:07
DocScrutinizer05BWAHAHA21:07
ivgalvezfor the "find an admin" it was supposed that Council and especially you, would do it21:08
qwazixGet the tmo database and vbul license to a semi-qualified m.org member21:08
DocScrutinizer05do you really think maemo.org privacy data hosted in sane EU may get moved to insane US legislative zone?21:08
qwazixto try and set it up in a VM on his pc21:08
qwazixif he manages that, we put that vm on a US server for one month21:08
qwazixwhen everything else moves moving another vm will be trivial21:09
qwazixwhat do you think?21:09
ivgalvezwe cannot give the database to anyone21:09
qwazixwhoever moves tmo will have access to the database21:10
qwazixcan't happen otherwise21:10
ivgalvezthen he has to be admin21:10
ivgalveznot a random guy21:10
qwazixI'm not talking about a random guy21:10
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: if you meant me, definitely NO WAY. I refused being responsible to find admins from very beginning, I *clearly* stated that! nevertheless I already made a contact to admins, who would be willing to do the job if only you would appreciate that they won't do it for free and you would make up your mind what exactly you want them to do for you21:10
DocScrutinizer05sorry, this gets me upset now21:10
DocScrutinizer05:-/21:10
ivgalvezqwazix, ok, but again, we don't have anyone volunteering yet21:11
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 if you have any proffesional admin contact please send to Board21:12
DocScrutinizer05and Why The Goddamn F**** can't you drop that alleged "privacy data" from tmo database???21:12
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: you're kidding me? I did a week ago21:13
qwazixYeah, I'm not very good at this, but if there's absolutely nobody else that can do it, and only for tmo, I can give it a try.21:13
ivgalvezI receive about 200 mails a day related to maemo, I might have lost it21:13
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: won't fly due to vBulletin licence, aiui21:13
MentalistTraceurOkay, we've spent a lot of time discussing details w.r.t. what to do with infra, which isn't even council jurisdiction. Let us get back to what we, as council, can actually do about the matter of getting a sys admin, rather than continuing down this road, which is getting increasingly likely to turn ugly.21:14
qwazixDoc, why?21:14
ivgalvezqwazix, thanks for voulnteering21:14
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur thanks,21:14
ivgalvezActually it has consumed so much time that I'm leaving in a few minutes21:15
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: because aiui that licence is personalized. Otherwise Reggie woul've donated it to us21:15
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 license should be bought for HF21:15
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, we have to check that, it should be ok for an admin to use a license on behalf of a corporation21:15
qwazixthe vm will not go live until is up on our new server21:16
ivgalvezqwazix, that's right, like with any other kind of software21:16
DocScrutinizer05I guess the licence is bound to a hardware, domain, whatever21:16
qwazixthere's always a provision for an additional dev domain21:16
qwazixin case the real domain isn't available yet21:17
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: I suggested OM admins and added them to CC of mail that gone to both council and board ML21:17
MentalistTraceurYes, I saw.21:17
DocScrutinizer05at end of that day they complained at me that they would need to charge board for reading all the "spam" as that alone takes hours21:18
DocScrutinizer05and honestly they're not interested in board internals21:18
DocScrutinizer05they want to do a job, with clear specs what to do21:19
DocScrutinizer05nobody at board even mailed them directly21:19
DocScrutinizer05it was irrelevant21:19
qwazixlet's set up some specs and ask for a quotation21:19
ivgalvezOK, enough21:20
DocScrutinizer05"not council's jurisdiction"21:20
qwazixok21:20
DocScrutinizer05ok21:20
* DocScrutinizer05 waves21:20
ivgalvezI have to leave21:20
ivgalvezbye21:20
* DocScrutinizer05 too21:20
MentalistTraceurAlright. Anything else on agenda or we all done?21:20
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC21:20
qwazixno...21:21
MentalistTraceurWell, meeting adjourned then. In the future, I think I ought to work on my 'chairing'. That was a really long conversation down a route that, while important to discuss as a community, was not all that relevant to what we as council can do.21:24
qwazixThe sad thing is that we didn't get anywhere...21:25
DocScrutinizer05well, if some of us at least realized that, then we in fact got somewhere21:26
DocScrutinizer05seems to me that nobody explicitly disagreed on "FIRST get a professional designing the whole shit, since *none* of us has a clue really"21:28
qwazixNobody disagreed, but board thinks that we should get over with tmo first21:29
DocScrutinizer05if the second half of that statement needed any proof, today we got it21:29
qwazixand I think the solution I proposed can fulfil both views21:29
MentalistTraceurI explicitly stated that I think first we need to make sure stuff is moved to interrim solutions, then we can get professionals in to design the way the whole shit will ultimately look.21:29
DocScrutinizer05there's no such thing like interim solutions21:30
DocScrutinizer05the only interim solution existing is to pay Reggie for another month of his server21:30
qwazixthere is. Having tmo on a hetzner server for a while21:31
qwazixthen move it again21:31
DocScrutinizer05I'd not call new infra - not consolidated yet - an interim solution21:31
qwazixit's a php board, it should be trivial to move21:31
DocScrutinizer05otherwise everything was an interim solution, since you are always facing the next scaling21:31
qwazixcall it however you like, it still works, and it still allows for a professional to design the system, without having to pay 500bucks21:32
DocScrutinizer05well, it's trivial for Reggie (since he did for some meego stuff), but obviously not for HF board21:33
MentalistTraceurThen we get into semantics. I'd say it's interim if you've made the conscious choice that in the near future, you'll switch to something else. The point is, we drop the stuff onto our infra, even if it's a mess, because we can do that a lot faster than we can iron out the details of how to best set up the infra long-term.21:33
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DocScrutinizer05nobody been able to explain to me what's that mysterious "privacy data" in tmo21:33
qwazixMT +1e621:33
qwazixI'd say that's a non-issue21:33
MentalistTraceurIt's not privacy as in personally identifiable info, I just said privacy in "data/privacy/etc law" or whatever phrasing I used.21:34
qwazixwho's gonna sue us for going from a looser jurisdiction to a stricter?21:34
DocScrutinizer05ask board21:34
DocScrutinizer05there *is* *no* privacy data in tmo, except PM which can get dropped during move21:35
MentalistTraceurI was referring to the fact that according to posts by Board members, their legal council has informed them that American data storage laws requires them to get their users to sign off on their data being permanently stored somewhere other than US.21:35
DocScrutinizer05there IS NO "their users data"!21:35
qwazixlosing the forest here, imo. It's more probable that there's a problem with the data changing owner than changing country of storage21:36
DocScrutinizer05rhere are public posts21:36
DocScrutinizer05nothing else21:36
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: that too21:36
DocScrutinizer05hell, if it doesn't work in any other way, drop all user accounts and require everybody to register new21:37
DocScrutinizer05drop accounts incl *all* "privacy" data21:37
qwazixor backup the front-end with a script, host it somewhere and set up a foss forum21:38
DocScrutinizer05though I'm absolutely sure nick and password-hash are not privacy relevant data either21:38
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: +121:38
DocScrutinizer05nobody expept Reggie could sue you for doing that21:39
DocScrutinizer05that's what I meant when I said "it's exported from US every day a thousand times"21:39
qwazix"All Content CC" not even Reggie21:39
DocScrutinizer05:nod:21:39
DocScrutinizer05so WICH FSCKNG PRIVACY data?21:40
MentalistTraceurIf we could field the lawyer costs to make sure that your interpretation is the one held up in court if some a-hole sued, this wouldn't be an issue. As is, we're arguing opinions about what constitutes what when I doubt any of us is familiar with the legalese and court precedent that applies to the matter.21:40
qwazixtrue that21:40
qwazixbut still, wouldn't everybody sue google for caching webpages?21:41
DocScrutinizer05I got another opinion: somebody might sue board for NOT moving tmo to maemo.org infra, for wasting donations. No what you do now?21:41
DocScrutinizer05as nonsensical a claim as the other one21:41
MentalistTraceurWasting donations is not cause for either criminal or civil suit in any jurisdiction I know of.21:42
DocScrutinizer05yeah, *you* know of21:42
DocScrutinizer05can you please bring me a lawyer who supports that?21:42
qwazixThe thing is that if you ask a lawyer if you should eat today, I bet he can find something that forbids it.21:42
MentalistTraceurCan you bring one that supports yours? Because if not, then you just reinforced my point.21:43
DocScrutinizer05wtf are we talking about?21:43
DocScrutinizer05that's brainfucking21:43
DocScrutinizer05when it talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, then it is a duck. THERE IS NO PRIVACY DATA21:44
DocScrutinizer05I don't need a friggin lawyer to see that21:44
MentalistTraceurThis isn't about privacy data, stop focusing on the word privacy.21:44
DocScrutinizer05PFFFF21:44
MentalistTraceurI already indicated that that wasn't what I was getting at.21:44
DocScrutinizer05now sorry, I got better things to do21:44
DocScrutinizer05bye21:45
qwazixbye21:45
MentalistTraceurBye.21:45
qwazixBtw I never got to bring the Nexus thing forward, anyway, next time.21:45
MentalistTraceurWell, you said you wanted to wait anyway. Anyway: Minutes will be sent out later today,21:46
MentalistTraceuror perhaps tomorrow depending on how things go.21:46
qwazixtake your time21:46
MentalistTraceurI've been going on 4 hours of sleep every night for the last week, more or less, so I might just crash and sleep for the next 12+ hours or so now that it's the weekend.21:47
* DocScrutinizer05 is going to do a wget backup of tmo during the weekend, then declares tmo dead and opens a new forum - maybe21:48
DocScrutinizer05on a EUROPEAN server21:48
DocScrutinizer05fsck all lawyers21:48
DocScrutinizer05wanna see somebody sueing me for that21:49
MentalistTraceurNow what we should've done during the council meeting, is moved to bring this up to the community at large.21:51
MentalistTraceurIf the bulk of the community is fine with tmo moving to an EU server, even with an account reregistration required, we wouldn't even have anything to argue about.21:52
MentalistTraceurAnd I suspect the bulk of the community would go "yeah fine that's cool do whatever".21:52
DocScrutinizer05on a sidenote: colocation @ hetzner: 40EUR/month... PLUS 30ct per Watt exceeding 50W. So if your server is rated 550W you pay 500 * 0.3EUR per month for electricity22:18
DocScrutinizer05plus the inclusive traffic is only 5TB (instead of 10TB for decent dedicated hosting)22:19
DocScrutinizer05plus nobody will service those server hw that Nemein buys "for community"22:20
* DocScrutinizer05 heads off to have a beer with his firend ex-hetzner-service guy22:21
DocScrutinizer05friend*22:21
MentalistTraceurSince no one of the Board, who decides this, is corrently on this channel that I can see, perhaps sending this to them would be better. *Shrug* Anyway, enjoy your beer.22:24
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