IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-12-07

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MentalistTraceurAlright, well, it's 7 minutes into scheduled meeting time and no one has said anything. Unless I missed something, there is still a meeting today, right?20:07
kerioi told you last time, we all moved to windows phone20:07
kerioalso, i thought you're supposed to begin these meetings20:08
qwazixHi MT,20:09
qwazixsorry I got distracted in the other window...20:10
kerioDocScrutinizer05: I SUMMON THEE, DEMON20:10
MentalistTraceur@kerio: Yes, formally, hence why I was asking if people where around.20:10
qwazixSo, do we have an agenda?20:11
MentalistTraceurAs much as I am capable of holding a meeting with myself, there'd be not much point if others weren't present.20:11
MentalistTraceurAlso, my apologies for not making minutes for the last meeting, since I missed it; I'm thinking I'll put them out at the same time (though in separate posts) as the meeting minutes for this one.20:12
MentalistTraceurAnyway, I have nothing to propose for the meeting agenda currently.20:13
qwazixNot many things to make minutes of, from the previous meeting, it was more of a discussion. ivgalvez brought up some news which he already documented in board blog, tmo and ml20:14
keriothe wiki is still borked, can we do something like that?20:14
qwazixkerio, ivgalvez and me have been trying to contact X-Fade for that matter but AFAIK there was no response until now.20:15
qwazixMentalistTraceur, I do not have something new for the agenda either, apart from noting that the CC devices issues are still unresolved.20:17
qwazixWe are waiting from the board's Nokia contact to reply about the matter.20:17
qwazixI don't know what else we can do if there is no reply in a reasonable amount of time.20:18
Woody14619start random calling of Nokia numbers? ;)20:20
MentalistTraceurFor the record: I have been contacted by a member (reinob, good guy from my interactions with him), because he wanted to discuss the Estel ban. I think there's a decent subset of the community that feels Estel's ban from TMO was politically motivated (admin/former-council v. Estel hostility), which is what the member contacting me wanted to know about - i.e. if it was or what can be done about if it in20:21
MentalistTraceurdeed was. I think, there isn't need to make this part of the agenda for now, but I'll tell reinob what I gathered about the situation, and figured I'd let it be known here.20:21
qwazixHi, Woody14619, I really don't know...20:21
Woody14619We do have an country code/exchange that's common for most of the folks now gone. ;)  Maybe can even find Elop's extension? ;)20:21
MentalistTraceurSorry that took so long to type, I started when we were on the "what's on the agenda" part of the discussion, but on N900, so took a little.20:22
MentalistTraceurs/a little/a little while/20:22
Woody14619Much of Estel's issue is just that... Estel's issue...20:22
qwazixWoody14619, imagine CC winners receiving lumia 800's20:22
Woody14619For the record, there is an appeal process when you're banned.  The forum rules explicitly state that creating a second account is cause for a ban of one month.20:23
Woody14619Estel knew this, and still made a second account to post from.20:23
kerioi think that that ban has elapsed, though20:23
Woody14619kerio: Yes, the 3-day ban (which one could argue *may* or may not have been "politically motivated") has expired.  But the current ban is based on Estel breaking forum rules.... nothing more, nothing less.20:24
Woody14619If I were to go in and create a second account and post from it (not even being banned right now), it would be grounds for banning me for a month.20:25
MentalistTraceur*Nod* I think as more people are made aware of the actual reason for the ban, we'll have less of this.20:27
Woody14619As for his current ban, AFAIK: It started on or about the 11th.  I believe that the ban system is automated, requiring no intereaction to re-enable an account by moderators (but I may be wrong on that).20:28
MentalistTraceurCurrently we have members who were at least partially positive towards estel finding out about as they stumble upon the fact, then getting information piecemeal from various threads and/or estel directly.20:28
Woody14619So, he may in fact be back in a few days...20:28
MentalistTraceurs/about as/about it as/20:29
Woody14619And if he does come back, you can be sure he's going to whip up a web of lies to cast it like he was ejected for political reasons.20:29
qwazixWoody14619, I am not sure as during the ban he created a third account, so the ban might actually have been extended.20:29
Woody14619qwazix: True... but the first ban was only a 3 day "cool off" ban.  The second/third accounts happened within a few days of each other.20:30
Woody14619I also recall Reggie metioning the posability of an IP ban... but I'm not sure if it was actually done or not.  That may not be automated, even if the account bans are.20:31
Woody14619He also declaired he would never return to TMO... but then he's not been true to his word before, so...   With any luck he's found another forum to pester, and has forgotten about us. ;)20:32
MentalistTraceur(Of course, Estel will also claim the 3rd account wasn't his, just the 2nd one was.) Anyway, I just wanted this noted so that it is on record that A. I was contacted by someone who hadn't know estel was banned until a week or so ago, and B. so that the current council is aware/reminded that there's still this matter under the surface in the community, that isn't currently getting discussed, but depending on how thing20:33
MentalistTraceurs go, it might flare up again.20:33
Woody14619Good to keep aware.20:34
Woody14619Wait, isn't the 12th the Mayan "end of the world" day?  OGM! It was all about Estel's ban! :D20:35
Woody14619Doah! Dislexia got me again.. it's the 21st. :P20:35
MentalistTraceurAlright, so, basically, so far we've noted the estel thing and that, as before, infrastructure continues to have issues and we still can't do anything about it, right?20:37
qwazixUnfortunately this sounds right...20:37
MentalistTraceurOh, right, also the CC problem devices are also still stuck in limbo as well.20:38
MentalistTraceurIs this always how powerless the council ended up being when Nokia-side problems existed, or were things different, once?20:40
Woody14619I'm going to say yes and no.20:40
Woody14619During my term, for the most part, yes.  In past terms, when Nokia was more responsive (and Quim was around) no.20:40
MentalistTraceur*Nod* That would've been more or less my guess.20:41
Woody14619Council has always been about narrowing the flood waters into the garden hose.  Funnel down the voice of the community to have a sane set of people to talk to Nokia for them.20:42
Woody14619We have/had access to some of the levers semi-directly, via good standing with X-Fade and Reggie mainly.20:44
Woody14619This is one of the reasons Estel and I got off to a bad start early in our term.  I was chatting with people, asking for things, and seeing progress.  He would then bust in, *demand* answers and actions, and people would shut down.20:45
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Woody14619FWIW: Most of this is documented... Thanks to having meeting minutes and logs.20:49
Woody14619One example being the COBS project, which was moving along nicely.  All COBS meetings were held here, in this logged channel.20:50
qwazixAh, I almost forgot, what do you think about the proposal of making the Nexus 7 a reference maemo device?20:52
Stskeepsnot unfeasible20:52
Stskeepsmer + cordia could probably work nicely on there20:52
qwazixSure there are hurdles like binary blobs etc, but there are many things that are on our side20:52
qwazixlike wide availability, nice price20:53
qwazixmany maemo guys already got one20:53
qwazixand proper specs20:53
Woody14619If there are hard-core development people with rev-eng experience backing this (freemangordon, itsnotabigtruck, etc) then sure, let them go for it.  But often people coming up with ideas like this don't know the effort involved in doing this.20:54
Woody14619It's not trivial, by any means.20:54
Stskeepsyou don't really need to rev-eng it :P20:54
Stskeepsthe blobs work perfectly with x11 on those20:55
Stskeepssome even run nemo on it20:55
qwazixWoody14619, it's not trivial but it's not a mountain either. I was even thinking the simplistic "just build cordia gtk3 on ubuntu which is already running on it"20:55
qwazix(Not as good as mer + cordia but easier)20:56
MentalistTraceurPersonally, I don't know if that's something we have the authority to say or do; Hildon Foundation has, as its purpose, the furthering of such things, but that seems like more or a board than a council matter. That said, my personal opinion, is that I have nothing against it, and it sounds from a cursory look inot the matter like it's feasible. Personally, it doesn't interest me too much, but who am I to stop people20:56
MentalistTraceurfrom doing it if they want.20:56
Woody14619I see no issue with having people take a whack at it.  But unless there are real developers behind the idea, it's just not going to work.20:57
qwazixI am thinking a process like a. check out if people are interested20:57
qwazixb. if amongst interested people there are at least 3 with proven capabilities20:57
qwazixc. gather some money and ship them one N7 each with the obligation to finish a task on it20:58
qwazixtasks would be  (depending on approach) 1. get mer running 2. build cordia 3. make boot images or20:59
qwazix1. build cordia on ubuntu 2. tweak ubuntu to behave like a tablet and not like a pc 3. create boot images or "maemo" ppa to install over existing ubuntu install21:00
qwazixThus I agree that it's not gonna happen by itself and that's why I propose to kickstart it.21:01
Woody14619Interesting concept.  I see no reason to smack it down if someone wants to try championing it.  I just don't know if Council needs to officially declare/sanction it.21:02
Woody14619If it's going to happen it will be more about those leading it than blessing from Council.  That said, the mear fact that someone in Council is presenting it could be enough to give it the tinge of "support" it needs. :)21:03
qwazixSomeone needs to organize it, and it would never seem legit enough if it's not the council or board. A group of trusted people must gather the money, decide who's worthy of a device and who's possibly going to deliver results and ship the devices (or the money)21:04
Woody14619But then, that's all up to you 5 now. ;)  My 0.00001 vote is "meh?" ;)21:04
MentalistTraceurThe biggest advantage I see to council endorsing it is that it gives sociological weight to it that the project might not have otherwise. Assuming the community is more likely to donate money to a community project if it recieves the community council approval.21:05
Woody14619If the movement gets to the point of money collection and what not, sure Council can act as the middle man.21:05
MentalistTraceurBut at the end of the day, it's the developers who bother actually making it happen that determine if it will or not,21:05
MentalistTraceurand they'll do it themselves, with or without council announcing it.21:06
qwazixThat's true, but it's different if you know others are working on the same project21:06
Woody14619My fear is, if you sanction it without community input, you'll get people donating, and then have nobody who wants to do the work.21:06
qwazixWoody14619, I think it has to be made the other way around21:06
MentalistTraceurExactly @Woody14619's comment.21:07
qwazixFind the developers willing to do the work and then ask for donations21:07
qwazixIf there's no interest in the first phase the project get's canned and all is well :)21:07
Woody14619So. :) Do that.  Kick off a poll thread, see how the community reacts, and if anyone in the development community is interested in pursuing it.21:08
Woody14619(eg. Take this converstation to #maemo-ssu... ;)21:08
qwazixhmm, not a bad idea at all.21:08
MentalistTraceur@Woody14619, I was about to say almost that, you beat me to it tho.21:09
Woody14619If it get to the donation phase, Council can bless/mediate it.  If not, hopefully no harm. (Assuming we don't have people rushing out and getting N7's then drifting off on those... ;)21:09
MentalistTraceurI would've suggested also making a council blog post letting people know that there is a possibility of using the Nexus 7 as such, "just so interested parties in the community are aware".21:10
Woody14619I would think a bullet in the Council Minutes would suffice... A whole blog post seems a bit much.  But either way...21:11
MentalistTraceur*Nod* Reasonable.21:11
qwazixOk I can do that as long as there is no objections, MentalistTraceur, please state this in the minutes, so that if any of the missing councillors thinks otherwise he can protest21:11
MentalistTraceurEither way, as there's only two councilors actively on here right now, I don't think we should do anything other than note it in the minutes.21:12
Woody14619This, btw, is another reason I wanted Council separate from Board.   Council can do things like this... reflected from the community.  Board, even if they got this pulse item, has no time to pursue opportunities like this.21:12
qwazixI think a blog post allows to describe the reasons behind this move, and the current state (ubuntu booting and working fine on it, nemo able to run on it etc)21:12
qwazixIt's not "just another android" device, that's why I'm bringing it up and I'd like this to be clear, and not be quickly dismissed as a "I want to run maemo on my toaster" thread21:14
Woody14619Again, just the fact that someone prominent in the community (and in this case, in Council) is bringing it up would be enough to make people take notice. ;)21:15
Woody14619K, well, smack this horse on the ass and get it moving.  I'm off to test some new camera firmware that just hit my inbox.  0x2B-rd time's a charm, I hope...21:16
MentalistTraceur(Aside: All toasters should run Maemo though.)21:16
Woody14619+2 (slots, one for each piece of toast!)21:16
qwazixI'd love to eat a nice slice with a maemo logo toasted on it :)21:16
MentalistTraceurAlright, I think that's all we have to discuss for now, I'm ready to wrap up if you are, qwazix.21:16
qwazixYep. I think that's all.21:17
MentalistTraceurAlright, great. *Waves* I'm off. Minutes draft will be sent out in a few hours, prob'ly.21:18
kerioqwazix: but i *do* want to run maemo on my toaster!21:25
qwazixkerio, who doesn't but we all got different toasters, so it's rarely a valid community project21:26
qwazixSo I suggest that if we manage to get it on the nexus, get two of them, put a slice of bread between them and put them in the oven.21:27
qwazixMakeshift maemo toaster :)21:28
qwazixYou could even try to squeeze a slice between the N900 screen and keyboard but I wouldn't recommend it21:28
kerioqwazix: when you say maemo, do you mean maemo fremantle?21:30
keriobecause i really, really like hildon-desktop as it is in fremantle21:30
MentalistTraceur(Same, btw, I am a fremantle fan myself. Though I wouldn't be averse to some modifications to hildon desktop)21:32
MentalistTraceurAlright, I have to log out for the time being.21:38
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qwazixkerio, when I say maemo I basically mean hildon-desktop, the one in fremantle21:52
qwazix(the old one was cool too, but it's really similar to unity and now it looks outdated)21:52
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