IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-11-30

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DocScrutinizer05hi ivgalvez19:59
DocScrutinizer05hi qwazix19:59
ivgalvezhi all19:59
qwazixhi!19:59
DocScrutinizer05hi X-Fade?19:59
qwazixI'll have to leave a bit early today19:59
DocScrutinizer05well, I guess this meeting won't be much longer than last one20:00
DocScrutinizer05actually no points on my agenda20:00
qwazixI'll make it through in that case.20:00
DocScrutinizer05I sent msg regarding IRC admin topics to X-Fade (as you might've noticed)20:01
ivgalvezYes, but I don't know if he's not around as I haven't receive any news yet concerning autobuilder and wiki20:02
qwazixI sent him one re wiki, but I got no responce.20:02
DocScrutinizer05indeed, wiki is a mega PITA20:02
qwazixresponse*20:02
DocScrutinizer05autobuilder as well (for some)20:02
ivgalvezas you have seen by my email I included Henry in the thread20:03
DocScrutinizer05I'm afraid Nokia CBA to fix shite, since they think this doesn't make sense anymore for the remaining time they are responsible. Means they will dump a pile of litter on our feet20:03
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 calm down20:04
ivgalvezlatest conference with both Nokia and Nemein was very productive20:05
DocScrutinizer05which is *extremely* unfortunate, since it's hard enough to make the migration work smoothly20:05
ivgalvezI need to publish latest news concerning that process in Board's blog20:05
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: I heard you saying Nokia will "buy servers for board" -does that mean they give us some random HW? wouldn't really help20:06
ivgalveznot random, Nemin is studying the hardware needs and Nokia will pay the bills20:06
DocScrutinizer05what we need is somebody paying hosting which usually includes the hw20:06
ivgalvezs/Nemin/Nemein/20:07
ivgalvezHardware will be property of the Foundation, but we will still need to pay the hosting20:07
DocScrutinizer05colocation (placing your own hw at some hoster's locatrion) is *extremely* expensive and unmaintainable20:07
ivgalvezwe don't have still the final cost, but it will be much cheaper, according to Nemein to include renting of servers20:08
DocScrutinizer05while a proper rootserver on leasing incl hosting is ~50...100 bucks/month20:09
qwazixI have been looking around for servers and there's a very wide range of prices for the same kind of hardware. Most corporations go the expensive way because it's less headaches for them20:09
qwazixbut it's very probable we can't afford that20:10
DocScrutinizer05actually afaik Nokia doesn't own the hw right now, and it's hosted by akamai or whomever. What's the problem in just handing us "the key" and pay that hosting for a year?20:10
ivgalvezLogica has the servers20:10
ivgalvezand they are crazy expensive20:10
DocScrutinizer05FFS20:10
DocScrutinizer05go for Hetzner.de20:10
qwazixcheck out server4you.net20:11
DocScrutinizer05server4you I had bad experience with their reliability20:11
Stskeepshetzner.de works wonders for merproject20:12
Stskeeps:P20:12
kerioget the cheapest VPS you can find on lowendbox.com20:12
keriopocket the leftover money20:12
keriomove to bora bora20:12
ivgalvezStskeeps hi20:12
qwazixyeah? I've heard bad things about them, but I've been running a server off them for two years without serious problems20:12
ivgalvezone question for you20:12
ivgalvezwho is hosting COBS?20:13
DocScrutinizer05Hetzner "approved" by Openmoko and qi-hw20:13
Stskeepsbuild.pub.meego.com? whatever is left of the meego money20:13
DocScrutinizer05and maemo.cloud-720:13
Stskeepswe're setting up a buildmerproject thing, but it's based on pay-for-your-own-load for organizations involved20:13
ivgalvezand what about Mer OBS?20:13
Stskeepsie, we work together but we share the costs based on the load we cause it20:14
ivgalvezthat could be useful for Hildon Foundation as our load for Maemo 5 and lower is really low20:14
ivgalvezif we can set up finally a OBS for Maemo20:14
ivgalvezwhile Harmattan needs to move to somewhere else20:15
Stskeepsit isn't, you need to work on cross compilation for both20:15
DocScrutinizer05get a proper rootserver, maybe 220:15
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, you already have the list of services and servers provided by Nemein20:15
DocScrutinizer05what Nokia listed in that "internal" pdf (why is that "internal" anyway? NDA issues??) is insane20:16
ivgalvezcould you investigate how much would it cost to move it there?20:16
kerioby the way, will hildon foundation also manage the harmattan side of maemo?20:16
DocScrutinizer05like "64GB of RAM" or sth like that20:16
ivgalvezkerio we are woriking on that20:16
kerioi vote no, because harmattan is icky :<20:16
DocScrutinizer05I could ask our OM admins20:17
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 the document was provided by Nemein20:17
ivgalvezbased on current infrastructure at Logica20:17
DocScrutinizer05they might share some tips, or might even be willing to help on admin, but only if paid for the latter20:17
qwazixHave you discussed anything about tmo?20:17
ivgalvezyes20:17
ivgalvezbut I need to publish that too20:18
DocScrutinizer05I *really* hope regie is willing to continue tmo as is20:18
DocScrutinizer05absolutely no sense in movinf that20:18
ivgalvezjust the opposite20:19
ivgalvezTMO is donated to the Foundation20:19
DocScrutinizer05it's on regie's servers afaik, regie does a decent job administrating it20:19
DocScrutinizer05*sigh*20:20
qwazixI like the idea of everything owned by the foundation. Clear, simple and futureproof20:20
DocScrutinizer05double-sigh20:20
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: I guess statements like these made regie say "screwit then, here's your shite"20:21
DocScrutinizer05if I were in his shoes, I'd do20:21
DocScrutinizer05brilliant job done by "the community" if that's actually the root reason for tmo discontinued20:22
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, I believe that Reggie is being paid for his work on tmo by Nokia until now, so I really doubt that statements are the reason he wants to donate it to the foundation20:23
DocScrutinizer05e*_ started on that rotten thinking of centralized control over everything and the fleas in my bed20:23
ivgalvezI don't know his reasons20:23
ivgalvezapart than Nokia won't pay the hosting past December20:23
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: that's an assumption that pretty much might be incorrect20:24
qwazixDidn't itt have ads before merger with maemo?20:24
DocScrutinizer05good luck with migration of tmo anyway20:24
DocScrutinizer05walking dead in my book20:25
ivgalvezyes it had ads in the beginning, we proposed to go that way again or to pay for the costs20:25
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: that's just as much handwaving about the reasons like what qwazix said20:26
DocScrutinizer05well, you proposed to pay for costs and not pester regie with "we need full control over that stuff now" and he rejected that offer? :-o20:27
qwazixAnyway, maybe he'd like to continue administrating it after transfer? Does it make sense?20:27
DocScrutinizer05I have a hard time to believe that. Unless maybe he's already thoroughly pissed with what happened last ~6 months20:27
DocScrutinizer05no20:28
ivgalvezI have proposed the three options20:28
DocScrutinizer05makes no sense since he knows his stuff on the current software and servers, no sense in administrating it on alien hw under alien forum-SW, for some "boss2 that has no clue basically20:29
qwazixgood point20:29
DocScrutinizer05btw tmo is only a subforum of internettablettalk.com, technically20:29
ivgalvezqwazix, he has kindly  declined that proposal or even being administrator of the full maemo infrastructure20:29
DocScrutinizer05and regie *owns* that other forum20:30
qwazixsubforum?20:30
qwazixivgalvez, ::nod::20:30
DocScrutinizer05http://www.internettablettalk.com/20:31
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: ^^^20:31
qwazixI know that, but it's just a page, all the forums are now tmo20:32
DocScrutinizer05it ever been regie's forum, just Nokia offered/asked to link talk.maemo.org to the tmo subforum20:32
DocScrutinizer05the whole think is owned and run by regie20:33
DocScrutinizer05except the tmo domain20:33
qwazixbut there aren't other subforums, only tmo.20:33
DocScrutinizer05now everybody pestering him about giving it away20:33
DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter20:33
DocScrutinizer05it's regie's property20:33
DocScrutinizer05always been20:33
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, that's not fair, we asked him also about other possibilities to keep TMO running past 201220:34
DocScrutinizer05If I were him, I were extremely pissed about all that bitching against me20:34
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: IIRC I explicitly asked you to make a contact between me and Regie so I could talk to him about that20:35
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ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, it's been a long time since we started to ask him what his decission would be about TMO future and you know his email20:37
DocScrutinizer05I also explicitly mentioned "ask him what's needed to keep things running absolutely unchanged, if board needs to offer money (and how much), or hosting, or co-admin, or whatever" (OWTTE)20:37
ivgalvezI aksed him that20:37
DocScrutinizer05and his answer been?20:37
ivgalvezcheck your email20:38
qwazixI will be mobile from now on, slower typing speed.20:38
DocScrutinizer05nothing in my email20:38
ivgalvezcheck20:39
ivgalvezthe response has just arrived and it's that he will donate TMO to the Foundation, that's his decision. To me is a new problem to deal with20:40
qwazixBefore I go, I want to state that there has still been no response about the CC devices from Nokia. ivgalvez, please ping whomever other contact you still have. We're missing two devices, for netvandal and wikiwide20:40
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: :nod:20:41
ivgalvezqwazix, please send me an email about that, I have other 1000 issues and I might forget that20:41
DocScrutinizer05sad20:41
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qwazixivgalvez, will do, I am sorry for dumping that on you but I don't know what else to do. Maybe if you find the right person to contact I can do the actual communication.20:42
ivgalvezno worries qwazix, just prepare the email and I will forward it20:43
DocScrutinizer05ok, I'll try to contact Regie and ask again what's the problem. If nothing else I think he at least can give a few words about his motivation, so we can be sure there's not been any lost-in-translation issue20:45
DocScrutinizer05any other topics?20:48
ivgalvezwell it's not really an official meeting20:48
ivgalvezno start, no agenda20:48
ivgalvezjust a catch up20:48
DocScrutinizer05yeah, hardly much to prepare for minutes either20:49
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: aiui board in theory has some money to spend on admin?20:50
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: what do you mean by money? :o20:51
ivgalvezwe need to start fundraising that's top priority too20:51
ivgalvezwe sill need to buy a vbulletin licence for TMO, it's 195 euros20:51
kerio...20:51
DocScrutinizer05I'm just asking as - if you say 'no money here' - I don't even start to pester admins I know about their minimum wages20:51
keriodo we really want to keep the forum on vbulletin?20:52
DocScrutinizer05yes20:52
DocScrutinizer05since everything else is at least 10 times as expensive20:52
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ivgalvezabsolutely20:52
Woody14619akerio: Do you want to hand-code the conversion of 4.7 million posts?20:52
ivgalvezit's only one payment20:53
DocScrutinizer05even when we count time of board and council with just 2 bucks per hour20:53
ivgalvezWoody14619a I miss you mate20:53
* Woody14619a smiles. :) 20:53
ivgalvez2 bucks per hour would make me rich20:53
Woody14619aI'm still here... late like usuall, but here.20:53
DocScrutinizer05welcome Woody14619a :-)20:53
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: so... is there any sense in me asking our OM admins how much they'd need to do at least *some* professional admin of maemo infra?20:54
Woody14619aThe conversion would cost more than a license...  That's been a known from day one.   The only exception would be if we had a dozen volunteers willing to convert it to something FOSS... And even then we 'd probably prefer them to work on something else.20:55
keriophpbb? :P20:55
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 absolutely, we still don't know the price for hosting at Nemein, so other options must be considered20:56
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ivgalvezwhere do they host the servers? Europe? USA?20:56
Woody14619akerio: Tell you what... TMO is out there.  Setup a mirror of the content on php bb, and I'll personally lead the charge to get the user info so logins are cross-compatable and ready to go at transision. ;)20:56
DocScrutinizer05Hetzner.de20:57
ivgalvezOK20:57
kerioWoody14619a: hm, i don't think it can be easily mirrored via a web spider20:57
Woody14619aThere is no tool for (damn near any web forum) -> (any other web forum).  Half the tools for forum(v1) -> (V2) don't work right...20:58
DocScrutinizer05yup20:58
DocScrutinizer05forget about moving tmo to any new forum sw20:58
Woody14619aThrowing money at the problem is not always the solution... but for this instance... I think it's probably the sanest thing to do.20:58
DocScrutinizer05not worth the posts we post here20:58
Woody14619a.oO(You think our posts here are worthless, you should see the ones on TMO about it...)20:59
DocScrutinizer05we rather could start a *new* forum than port the existing one to some new infra20:59
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619a: I think our posts here are way too valuable to waste them on tmo sw migration21:00
* Woody14619a nods... that was a fallback option. Start a new forum, put TMO in read-only mode for reference.21:00
kerioby the way, will donations be the only source of money in hildon foundation?21:01
ivgalvezwhat is sure that we will need to put in read only mode is Garage and bugzilla21:01
merlin1991bugzilla has to go read only?21:02
ivgalvezmore than probably21:02
DocScrutinizer05why?21:02
ivgalvezthe infrastructure is a bit large, we will need to trim it down as much a possible21:02
DocScrutinizer05any of you asked mgedmin about some support in porting that whatsitcalled to new infra?21:03
ivgalvezthe most logical choices to me are those, but I'm open to suggestions21:03
ivgalvezwe should try to use as much free resources as possible, gitorious for example21:04
DocScrutinizer05www.pov.lt21:04
merlin1991yeah but ie the cssu bugtracker is there21:04
Woody14619aWe need to be a little cautious on choosing those services though...21:05
DocScrutinizer05I'm also not happy with tearing down BT21:05
Woody14619aLast thing we need is a "bus" incodent, where someone key falls away or vanishes and a chunk of history goes with them...21:05
DocScrutinizer05BZ21:05
ivgalvezmerlin1991 but there are only a few projects using it at the moment, please provide any options21:05
ivgalvezother suggestions are not enabling autobuilder for Maemo 4 and lower21:06
ivgalvezonly provide dput21:06
merlin1991well grage provides news and source control, of which only source control is used, there I see the viable free alternatives, but bugzillas are rather rare21:06
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619a: I'm aware of this by day and night, good when somebody else also keeps an eye on it21:06
ivgalvezand autobuilder for Diablo and Fremantle only21:06
DocScrutinizer05sounds sensible21:07
ivgalvezconsidering that Diablo hasn't received new packages in a while, we might consider olso to enable only binary upload for it21:08
DocScrutinizer05I'd consider anything before diablo absolutely obsolete21:08
DocScrutinizer05otoh what will that save us?21:08
ivgalvezeverything depends on cost and our capacity to get funds21:08
DocScrutinizer05cost of 2TB storage on server is some 50..100 bucks / month, as already mentioned21:09
DocScrutinizer05that's one root server21:09
ivgalvezwhat about transfer capacity and CPU?21:10
DocScrutinizer05I dunno how my OM admin friends are hosting their vhosts on rootservers21:10
DocScrutinizer05I think data volume is basically unlimited21:11
DocScrutinizer05CPU is... well how much do we need?21:11
ivgalvezwe have web page for maemo.org, downloads (SDK), lists and mail, voting machine, dns, repositories, garage, autobuilder and databases21:11
ivgalvezplus TMO21:11
ivgalvezand wiki and bugzilla21:12
DocScrutinizer05meh, tmo. :-S21:12
DocScrutinizer05all except autobuilder and tmo webserver doesn't really need any more CPU than a N900 could provide21:13
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DocScrutinizer05I'll ask my OM admin friends in Berlin21:14
ivgalvezthanks21:14
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ivgalvezI need to leave guys21:17
ivgalvezbye21:17
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DocScrutinizer05bye21:18
* DocScrutinizer05 leaves too21:18
qwazixbye21:18
DocScrutinizer05o/21:19
keriolet's host the hildon foundation infrastructure on n900s!21:20
DocScrutinizer05ooh you think we should do a hw upgrade from the 770 it runs on right now?21:20
keriomost definetely21:21
keriothe extra cpu would allow wonderful things21:21
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MentalistTraceurSorry I just remembered meeting was today. Did I already miss everything?22:02
kerioyep22:19
keriowe decided to close up everything and move to windows phone22:19
MentalistTraceurHeh.22:20

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