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| DocScrutinizer05 | hi ivgalvez | 19:59 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi qwazix | 19:59 |
| ivgalvez | hi all | 19:59 |
| qwazix | hi! | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi X-Fade? | 19:59 |
| qwazix | I'll have to leave a bit early today | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I guess this meeting won't be much longer than last one | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually no points on my agenda | 20:00 |
| qwazix | I'll make it through in that case. | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I sent msg regarding IRC admin topics to X-Fade (as you might've noticed) | 20:01 |
| ivgalvez | Yes, but I don't know if he's not around as I haven't receive any news yet concerning autobuilder and wiki | 20:02 |
| qwazix | I sent him one re wiki, but I got no responce. | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, wiki is a mega PITA | 20:02 |
| qwazix | response* | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | autobuilder as well (for some) | 20:02 |
| ivgalvez | as you have seen by my email I included Henry in the thread | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm afraid Nokia CBA to fix shite, since they think this doesn't make sense anymore for the remaining time they are responsible. Means they will dump a pile of litter on our feet | 20:03 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 calm down | 20:04 |
| ivgalvez | latest conference with both Nokia and Nemein was very productive | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which is *extremely* unfortunate, since it's hard enough to make the migration work smoothly | 20:05 |
| ivgalvez | I need to publish latest news concerning that process in Board's blog | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: I heard you saying Nokia will "buy servers for board" -does that mean they give us some random HW? wouldn't really help | 20:06 |
| ivgalvez | not random, Nemin is studying the hardware needs and Nokia will pay the bills | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what we need is somebody paying hosting which usually includes the hw | 20:06 |
| ivgalvez | s/Nemin/Nemein/ | 20:07 |
| ivgalvez | Hardware will be property of the Foundation, but we will still need to pay the hosting | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | colocation (placing your own hw at some hoster's locatrion) is *extremely* expensive and unmaintainable | 20:07 |
| ivgalvez | we don't have still the final cost, but it will be much cheaper, according to Nemein to include renting of servers | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while a proper rootserver on leasing incl hosting is ~50...100 bucks/month | 20:09 |
| qwazix | I have been looking around for servers and there's a very wide range of prices for the same kind of hardware. Most corporations go the expensive way because it's less headaches for them | 20:09 |
| qwazix | but it's very probable we can't afford that | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually afaik Nokia doesn't own the hw right now, and it's hosted by akamai or whomever. What's the problem in just handing us "the key" and pay that hosting for a year? | 20:10 |
| ivgalvez | Logica has the servers | 20:10 |
| ivgalvez | and they are crazy expensive | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FFS | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | go for Hetzner.de | 20:10 |
| qwazix | check out server4you.net | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | server4you I had bad experience with their reliability | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | hetzner.de works wonders for merproject | 20:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:12 |
| kerio | get the cheapest VPS you can find on lowendbox.com | 20:12 |
| kerio | pocket the leftover money | 20:12 |
| kerio | move to bora bora | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | Stskeeps hi | 20:12 |
| qwazix | yeah? I've heard bad things about them, but I've been running a server off them for two years without serious problems | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | one question for you | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | who is hosting COBS? | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Hetzner "approved" by Openmoko and qi-hw | 20:13 |
| Stskeeps | build.pub.meego.com? whatever is left of the meego money | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maemo.cloud-7 | 20:13 |
| Stskeeps | we're setting up a buildmerproject thing, but it's based on pay-for-your-own-load for organizations involved | 20:13 |
| ivgalvez | and what about Mer OBS? | 20:13 |
| Stskeeps | ie, we work together but we share the costs based on the load we cause it | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | that could be useful for Hildon Foundation as our load for Maemo 5 and lower is really low | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | if we can set up finally a OBS for Maemo | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | while Harmattan needs to move to somewhere else | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | it isn't, you need to work on cross compilation for both | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | get a proper rootserver, maybe 2 | 20:15 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, you already have the list of services and servers provided by Nemein | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what Nokia listed in that "internal" pdf (why is that "internal" anyway? NDA issues??) is insane | 20:16 |
| ivgalvez | could you investigate how much would it cost to move it there? | 20:16 |
| kerio | by the way, will hildon foundation also manage the harmattan side of maemo? | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like "64GB of RAM" or sth like that | 20:16 |
| ivgalvez | kerio we are woriking on that | 20:16 |
| kerio | i vote no, because harmattan is icky :< | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I could ask our OM admins | 20:17 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 the document was provided by Nemein | 20:17 |
| ivgalvez | based on current infrastructure at Logica | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they might share some tips, or might even be willing to help on admin, but only if paid for the latter | 20:17 |
| qwazix | Have you discussed anything about tmo? | 20:17 |
| ivgalvez | yes | 20:17 |
| ivgalvez | but I need to publish that too | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *really* hope regie is willing to continue tmo as is | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | absolutely no sense in movinf that | 20:18 |
| ivgalvez | just the opposite | 20:19 |
| ivgalvez | TMO is donated to the Foundation | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's on regie's servers afaik, regie does a decent job administrating it | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* | 20:20 |
| qwazix | I like the idea of everything owned by the foundation. Clear, simple and futureproof | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | double-sigh | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: I guess statements like these made regie say "screwit then, here's your shite" | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if I were in his shoes, I'd do | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | brilliant job done by "the community" if that's actually the root reason for tmo discontinued | 20:22 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, I believe that Reggie is being paid for his work on tmo by Nokia until now, so I really doubt that statements are the reason he wants to donate it to the foundation | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e*_ started on that rotten thinking of centralized control over everything and the fleas in my bed | 20:23 |
| ivgalvez | I don't know his reasons | 20:23 |
| ivgalvez | apart than Nokia won't pay the hosting past December | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: that's an assumption that pretty much might be incorrect | 20:24 |
| qwazix | Didn't itt have ads before merger with maemo? | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good luck with migration of tmo anyway | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | walking dead in my book | 20:25 |
| ivgalvez | yes it had ads in the beginning, we proposed to go that way again or to pay for the costs | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: that's just as much handwaving about the reasons like what qwazix said | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, you proposed to pay for costs and not pester regie with "we need full control over that stuff now" and he rejected that offer? :-o | 20:27 |
| qwazix | Anyway, maybe he'd like to continue administrating it after transfer? Does it make sense? | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I have a hard time to believe that. Unless maybe he's already thoroughly pissed with what happened last ~6 months | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 20:28 |
| ivgalvez | I have proposed the three options | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | makes no sense since he knows his stuff on the current software and servers, no sense in administrating it on alien hw under alien forum-SW, for some "boss2 that has no clue basically | 20:29 |
| qwazix | good point | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw tmo is only a subforum of internettablettalk.com, technically | 20:29 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, he has kindly declined that proposal or even being administrator of the full maemo infrastructure | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and regie *owns* that other forum | 20:30 |
| qwazix | subforum? | 20:30 |
| qwazix | ivgalvez, ::nod:: | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.internettablettalk.com/ | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: ^^^ | 20:31 |
| qwazix | I know that, but it's just a page, all the forums are now tmo | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it ever been regie's forum, just Nokia offered/asked to link talk.maemo.org to the tmo subforum | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the whole think is owned and run by regie | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except the tmo domain | 20:33 |
| qwazix | but there aren't other subforums, only tmo. | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now everybody pestering him about giving it away | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't matter | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's regie's property | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | always been | 20:33 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, that's not fair, we asked him also about other possibilities to keep TMO running past 2012 | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | If I were him, I were extremely pissed about all that bitching against me | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: IIRC I explicitly asked you to make a contact between me and Regie so I could talk to him about that | 20:35 |
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| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, it's been a long time since we started to ask him what his decission would be about TMO future and you know his email | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I also explicitly mentioned "ask him what's needed to keep things running absolutely unchanged, if board needs to offer money (and how much), or hosting, or co-admin, or whatever" (OWTTE) | 20:37 |
| ivgalvez | I aksed him that | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and his answer been? | 20:37 |
| ivgalvez | check your email | 20:38 |
| qwazix | I will be mobile from now on, slower typing speed. | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nothing in my email | 20:38 |
| ivgalvez | check | 20:39 |
| ivgalvez | the response has just arrived and it's that he will donate TMO to the Foundation, that's his decision. To me is a new problem to deal with | 20:40 |
| qwazix | Before I go, I want to state that there has still been no response about the CC devices from Nokia. ivgalvez, please ping whomever other contact you still have. We're missing two devices, for netvandal and wikiwide | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: :nod: | 20:41 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, please send me an email about that, I have other 1000 issues and I might forget that | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sad | 20:41 |
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| qwazix | ivgalvez, will do, I am sorry for dumping that on you but I don't know what else to do. Maybe if you find the right person to contact I can do the actual communication. | 20:42 |
| ivgalvez | no worries qwazix, just prepare the email and I will forward it | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, I'll try to contact Regie and ask again what's the problem. If nothing else I think he at least can give a few words about his motivation, so we can be sure there's not been any lost-in-translation issue | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any other topics? | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | well it's not really an official meeting | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | no start, no agenda | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | just a catch up | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, hardly much to prepare for minutes either | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: aiui board in theory has some money to spend on admin? | 20:50 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: what do you mean by money? :o | 20:51 |
| ivgalvez | we need to start fundraising that's top priority too | 20:51 |
| ivgalvez | we sill need to buy a vbulletin licence for TMO, it's 195 euros | 20:51 |
| kerio | ... | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just asking as - if you say 'no money here' - I don't even start to pester admins I know about their minimum wages | 20:51 |
| kerio | do we really want to keep the forum on vbulletin? | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since everything else is at least 10 times as expensive | 20:52 |
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| ivgalvez | absolutely | 20:52 |
| Woody14619a | kerio: Do you want to hand-code the conversion of 4.7 million posts? | 20:52 |
| ivgalvez | it's only one payment | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even when we count time of board and council with just 2 bucks per hour | 20:53 |
| ivgalvez | Woody14619a I miss you mate | 20:53 |
| * Woody14619a smiles. :) | 20:53 | |
| ivgalvez | 2 bucks per hour would make me rich | 20:53 |
| Woody14619a | I'm still here... late like usuall, but here. | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | welcome Woody14619a :-) | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: so... is there any sense in me asking our OM admins how much they'd need to do at least *some* professional admin of maemo infra? | 20:54 |
| Woody14619a | The conversion would cost more than a license... That's been a known from day one. The only exception would be if we had a dozen volunteers willing to convert it to something FOSS... And even then we 'd probably prefer them to work on something else. | 20:55 |
| kerio | phpbb? :P | 20:55 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 absolutely, we still don't know the price for hosting at Nemein, so other options must be considered | 20:56 |
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| ivgalvez | where do they host the servers? Europe? USA? | 20:56 |
| Woody14619a | kerio: Tell you what... TMO is out there. Setup a mirror of the content on php bb, and I'll personally lead the charge to get the user info so logins are cross-compatable and ready to go at transision. ;) | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Hetzner.de | 20:57 |
| ivgalvez | OK | 20:57 |
| kerio | Woody14619a: hm, i don't think it can be easily mirrored via a web spider | 20:57 |
| Woody14619a | There is no tool for (damn near any web forum) -> (any other web forum). Half the tools for forum(v1) -> (V2) don't work right... | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yup | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | forget about moving tmo to any new forum sw | 20:58 |
| Woody14619a | Throwing money at the problem is not always the solution... but for this instance... I think it's probably the sanest thing to do. | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not worth the posts we post here | 20:58 |
| Woody14619a | .oO(You think our posts here are worthless, you should see the ones on TMO about it...) | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we rather could start a *new* forum than port the existing one to some new infra | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619a: I think our posts here are way too valuable to waste them on tmo sw migration | 21:00 |
| * Woody14619a nods... that was a fallback option. Start a new forum, put TMO in read-only mode for reference. | 21:00 | |
| kerio | by the way, will donations be the only source of money in hildon foundation? | 21:01 |
| ivgalvez | what is sure that we will need to put in read only mode is Garage and bugzilla | 21:01 |
| merlin1991 | bugzilla has to go read only? | 21:02 |
| ivgalvez | more than probably | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why? | 21:02 |
| ivgalvez | the infrastructure is a bit large, we will need to trim it down as much a possible | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any of you asked mgedmin about some support in porting that whatsitcalled to new infra? | 21:03 |
| ivgalvez | the most logical choices to me are those, but I'm open to suggestions | 21:03 |
| ivgalvez | we should try to use as much free resources as possible, gitorious for example | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | www.pov.lt | 21:04 |
| merlin1991 | yeah but ie the cssu bugtracker is there | 21:04 |
| Woody14619a | We need to be a little cautious on choosing those services though... | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm also not happy with tearing down BT | 21:05 |
| Woody14619a | Last thing we need is a "bus" incodent, where someone key falls away or vanishes and a chunk of history goes with them... | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BZ | 21:05 |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991 but there are only a few projects using it at the moment, please provide any options | 21:05 |
| ivgalvez | other suggestions are not enabling autobuilder for Maemo 4 and lower | 21:06 |
| ivgalvez | only provide dput | 21:06 |
| merlin1991 | well grage provides news and source control, of which only source control is used, there I see the viable free alternatives, but bugzillas are rather rare | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619a: I'm aware of this by day and night, good when somebody else also keeps an eye on it | 21:06 |
| ivgalvez | and autobuilder for Diablo and Fremantle only | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds sensible | 21:07 |
| ivgalvez | considering that Diablo hasn't received new packages in a while, we might consider olso to enable only binary upload for it | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd consider anything before diablo absolutely obsolete | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otoh what will that save us? | 21:08 |
| ivgalvez | everything depends on cost and our capacity to get funds | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cost of 2TB storage on server is some 50..100 bucks / month, as already mentioned | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's one root server | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | what about transfer capacity and CPU? | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno how my OM admin friends are hosting their vhosts on rootservers | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think data volume is basically unlimited | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CPU is... well how much do we need? | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | we have web page for maemo.org, downloads (SDK), lists and mail, voting machine, dns, repositories, garage, autobuilder and databases | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | plus TMO | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | and wiki and bugzilla | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, tmo. :-S | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all except autobuilder and tmo webserver doesn't really need any more CPU than a N900 could provide | 21:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll ask my OM admin friends in Berlin | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | thanks | 21:14 |
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| ivgalvez | I need to leave guys | 21:17 |
| ivgalvez | bye | 21:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | bye | 21:18 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 leaves too | 21:18 | |
| qwazix | bye | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 21:19 |
| kerio | let's host the hildon foundation infrastructure on n900s! | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh you think we should do a hw upgrade from the 770 it runs on right now? | 21:20 |
| kerio | most definetely | 21:21 |
| kerio | the extra cpu would allow wonderful things | 21:21 |
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| MentalistTraceur | Sorry I just remembered meeting was today. Did I already miss everything? | 22:02 |
| kerio | yep | 22:19 |
| kerio | we decided to close up everything and move to windows phone | 22:19 |
| MentalistTraceur | Heh. | 22:20 |
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