IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-11-16

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ivgalvezMentalistTraceur hi19:57
MentalistTraceurGreetings everyone. Did I get the time correctly? 18 UTC = 1 EST, right?19:58
ivgalvezright19:58
ivgalvezI didn't know if you were receiving emails19:58
DocScrutinizer05hi MentalistTraceur! Fine to finally see you around! :-)19:59
qwazixhi all,19:59
MentalistTraceurI have been (receiving emails). Haven't had a chance to reply so far.20:00
DocScrutinizer05well, relying isn't that easy yet. My mail setup still is buggy as hell20:00
ivgalveznice20:00
DocScrutinizer05replying*20:00
MentalistTraceurFyi I'm connected through an N900, and since my hands are cold from being outside for a while, so my thumb-typing speed is a bit slower than ideal.20:01
MentalistTraceurThus my replies might be a tad slow.20:01
DocScrutinizer05X-Fade: council crew should get added to accesslist20:01
DocScrutinizer05fyi I'm not available for long today, and may have afk-times in between as well. sorry for that20:02
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: niel?20:02
ivgalvezhere20:02
DocScrutinizer05Niel20:03
ivgalvezapart from chairman election, do you have any items to add to the agenda?20:03
qwazixWe have a problem with one of the CC N950's20:04
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qwazixand I'd like to be able to forward it to the nokia re20:04
DocScrutinizer05Woody promised some introductory letter, and we should send a formal 'hello community' to tmo and ML20:04
qwazixother than that, no20:04
MentalistTraceurI have none to add to the agenda. Regarding joerg's suggestion that I be council chairman: I don't mind, though someone would have to explain to me how to do the meeting minutes (how to publish them through council blog, mainly).20:05
MentalistTraceurThat said, if anyone else wants the position, I would be happy to let them have it.20:05
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty happy with you doing chair, and I'm sure ivgalvez (who has just vamished) will explain details to you20:06
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ivgalvezhere again20:06
ivgalvezgasp20:07
qwazixMe too, and I believe your writing skills will be useful in that position too.20:07
DocScrutinizer05so I guess that's been the quickest most painless chairman election ever ;-D20:07
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur: I think it's unanimous20:07
ivgalvezwhat do I have to explain?20:07
DocScrutinizer05[2012-11-16 19:05:03] <MentalistTraceur> I have none to add to the agenda. Regarding joerg's suggestion that I be council chairman: I don't mind, though someone would have to explain to me how to do the meeting minutes (how to publish them through council blog, mainly).20:08
ivgalvezok20:08
qwazixAlso, ivgalvez are there any news from the board front?20:08
ivgalvezhere's how we have been working with Woody:20:09
DocScrutinizer05who's leading meeting today?20:09
ivgalvezhe oficially starts the meeting20:09
ivgalvezand pastes the agenda if something previosly has been discussed20:10
DocScrutinizer05are we waiting for NielDK?20:10
ivgalvezthen he conducts the meeting anouncing change from one topic to another as we go in advance20:10
ivgalvezand finally declares finalization of the meeting20:11
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: just a minute, so I can finish the explanation20:11
DocScrutinizer05sure20:11
ivgalvezafter the meeting he sends minutes for review to all Council members20:11
ivgalvezand once accepted, you can publish them at Council's blog20:12
ivgalvezthis creates a new TMO thread (not always) and send the message to ml20:12
ivgalvezwhen chairman cannot attend meeting20:13
ivgalvezsomeone else takes the responsibility for conducting the meeting20:13
ivgalvezany questions?20:13
MentalistTraceurSo, to clarify, would conversation preceding the formal start, like this discussion/explanation, be included in the minutes?20:13
DocScrutinizer05usually not20:14
ivgalvezno, only the formal topics would be in minutes (but the conversation is in logs anyway)20:14
DocScrutinizer05though that's in your discretion, and matter to common sense20:14
ivgalvezwould you like to start it officially MentalistTraceur?20:14
MentalistTraceurAlso, how do you post to the council blog? Is there instructions somewhere I've missed?20:15
MentalistTraceurSure, right after this is answered.20:15
DocScrutinizer05iirc there's a best prctice to use bot commands (rthough we got no bot for that anymore):20:15
DocScrutinizer05##meeting start20:15
DocScrutinizer05sth like that20:15
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ivgalvezyou just need to enter in Maemo News at Council's blog: http://maemo.org/community/council/20:16
ivgalvezmake login20:16
ivgalvezyou should all be able to check that tha have the option to create articles20:17
ivgalvezat the upper toolbar20:17
ivgalvezunder the "folder" menu20:17
DocScrutinizer05garage account!20:17
ivgalvezright20:17
ivgalvezso for the agenda, we have:20:18
DocScrutinizer05(dunno, MentalistTraceur did you get summary of last week's introduction?)20:18
ivgalvez1. Chairman election20:18
ivgalvez2. CC20:18
ivgalvez3. Board update20:18
ivgalvez4. Infrastructure20:18
ivgalvez5. Misc20:18
ivgalvezany more topics you can think about?20:19
DocScrutinizer054. IRC stuff: (cloaks, access lists)20:19
MentalistTraceur(Yes, Joerg, I did.)20:19
MentalistTraceur(Well, I read the log, I assume what you're referring to was in there?)20:19
DocScrutinizer05yep, mainly20:20
MentalistTraceurOkay, well, I suppose we can start the meeting officially.20:20
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur, go on20:20
keriocan i get a @maemocouncil/troll/kerio cloak?20:21
MentalistTraceurAlright, council meeting is officially in order, on this fine day of November 16th, 2012.20:21
MentalistTraceurFirst on the agenda, chairman election.20:22
MentalistTraceurI was nominated by Joerg, I accept the nomination unless someone else wants the position (if you do say so, if not, I take it we can just vote on it).20:23
ivgalvezI say yes20:23
MentalistTraceur(Honestly, I know we already pretty much all agreed to have me as chair, I just want it here on record for the minutes)20:24
qwazixI say yes too20:24
DocScrutinizer05yes20:24
DocScrutinizer05I'm noting that we're not complete20:25
ivgalvezit doesn't matter20:25
ivgalvezit's amajority vote20:25
DocScrutinizer05sure20:25
DocScrutinizer05just for the record20:25
DocScrutinizer05:-)20:25
MentalistTraceurIndeed, we are missing one councilmember, though if he wants the position I'd be happy to do a re-vote when he is present.20:26
MentalistTraceurAnyway, it seems I have been formally chosen as chairman, everyone may take 4.3 seconds break to rejoice.20:27
DocScrutinizer05cheers!!20:27
MentalistTraceurEnough rejoicing.20:27
MentalistTraceurNext step on the agenda, qwazix brought up the fact that we have an issue,20:27
MentalistTraceurwith an N950 for CC, I believe.20:28
ivgalvezlinks?20:28
qwazixYes, one of the N950 has some area of the touchscreen dead20:28
qwazixjust a sec20:28
DocScrutinizer05ouch20:28
MentalistTraceur(Where CC presumably refers to the coding competition, for anyone reading this later who may be confused.)20:28
DocScrutinizer05how unfortunate20:28
ivgalvezthat's real bad luck, there are no more devices left20:29
ivgalvezonly chance is that it can be repaired20:29
MentalistTraceurBeing a first-time councilmember I have no idea how these things are normally handled - i.e. who do we contact to see if repairs can be made?20:30
qwazixlink to post from unlucky CC winner http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1293477&postcount=107120:31
ivgalvezfirst of all user, the CC winner should contact Nokia directly20:31
DocScrutinizer05yep20:31
DocScrutinizer05DDP20:32
ivgalvezif there is any problem, we can try with higher instances20:32
qwazixIs there a mail address I can give to him?20:32
DocScrutinizer05that's called 2escalate" ;)20:32
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: he should've received an email with delivery notification from Nokia20:32
DocScrutinizer05usually signed by a real human20:32
ivgalvezyes, they have changed that contact a few times now20:33
qwazixSome people didn't. They just received a DHL package20:33
ivgalvezso I probably have an old direction non working now20:33
qwazixIf he didn't should I give him the mail address of the person that sent my confirmation e-mail?20:33
ivgalvezqwazix I'll send you the addresses I know20:33
qwazixivgalvez, thanks20:33
ivgalvezbut I'm afraid that peple is leaving Nokia at real light speed20:34
ivgalvezs/peple/people/20:34
MentalistTraceurAlright, if that's all that we can do at the moment to help with this issue, we can move on to the next item on the agenda.20:36
MentalistTraceurAnyone else have anything to add here before we do?20:37
DocScrutinizer05a general notice to council: according to council "foundation" info, we're all supposed to stay on IRC and be available here20:37
DocScrutinizer05(or rather, in #maemo)20:37
DocScrutinizer05nothing to add, next topic20:37
MentalistTraceurPerpetually?20:38
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: you can't be beaten on that matter20:38
DocScrutinizer05well, either that, or frequently20:38
DocScrutinizer05it's not exactly a must, more a very nice to have20:38
DocScrutinizer05everybody to his capabilities20:39
MentalistTraceurOkay. And with that, next topic.20:39
qwazixI'll try to have it open as much as I can20:39
keriodoc is on irc about 48 hours a day20:39
DocScrutinizer05duh! feels longer20:39
qwazixIt's just that usually it's hard to not focus away from whatever else I'm doing when it's open20:40
qwazix:|20:40
MentalistTraceur"Board Update", is the next item on the agenda, I'm not completely clear what this exactly entails.20:40
kerioDocScrutinizer05: 'twas a joke on your two clients20:40
MentalistTraceurI imagine this is just a status update from the board?20:40
ivgalvezyes20:41
ivgalvezBoard meeting was yesterday20:41
ivgalvezI asked SD69 about a specific question I was talking with Doc a few days before20:41
ivgalvezhow is an officer or adminstrator, once appointed by Board, legally obliged with Board20:42
DocScrutinizer05we can discuss / mention it here: it's about sysops/admins and their qualification and liability20:42
ivgalvezhe told us that there is no need to sign a contract, NFP legislation is enough if somene accepts the appointment, like a verbal contract20:43
DocScrutinizer05we (or board) can't simply ask for somebody to 'help a day or two' on admin of maemo infra20:43
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ivgalvezthere should be an officer (appointed by Board) whou would be the adminstrator20:44
ivgalvezhe will be legally entitled to be20:44
ivgalvezbut this officer can either be a person or group of persons20:44
DocScrutinizer05maybe we don't need signed contracts, but we need to make sure our volunteers have sufficient understanding of the responsibilities they accept, and of course they should be able to handle server infra without doing mess20:44
ivgalvezi.e. Council could be appointed as administrator20:45
ivgalvezor an individual20:45
ivgalvezthat's a different question20:45
ivgalvezwhen you hire someone you need to be sure he could do the job20:45
keriogimme the root passwordz, i'll admin no problem20:46
DocScrutinizer05exactly!20:46
MentalistTraceurQuick technical note: what does NFP stand for in the above "NFP legislation"?20:46
ivgalvezso, as a summary, Board can appoint an individual or a group. In that second case, appointing full Council was proposed for that20:46
ivgalvezNon For Profit20:46
kerionon-for-profit i think20:46
DocScrutinizer05Non For Profit20:46
MentalistTraceurOh.20:46
kerioivgalvez: who has the legal responsibilities in the second case?20:47
keriothe whole council?20:47
ivgalvezso what do you think about that option, do you think it's better to appoint whole Council as administrators or an individual?20:47
qwazixFrom my limited administration experience, the administration of the maemo assets is something more than a full time job for a qualified admin.20:47
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty sure there should be as low number of admins as possible20:48
ivgalvezthe rationale is that there will be periods of time for vacations, real life issues, work nightmares, etc in which a solely individua lcould not be available20:48
DocScrutinizer05and aiui none of us council members is an experienced admin20:48
ivgalvezno, please let me clarify that20:48
ivgalvezadministrator appointed by Board doesn't need to be the master of Linus20:49
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i'm not so sure that having omnicomprehensive admins is a good idea20:49
ivgalvezLinux20:49
ivgalvezI mean, adminstrator would be responsible of knowing the root passwords, do basic administrative tasks20:50
ivgalvezrecruit experts for specific tasks20:50
DocScrutinizer05I'd suggest I volunteer to play the LordKeyholder, and in case I'm not available, ivgalvez or whomever got the passwords and gave them to me still has access to them20:50
keriosysadmin, repo admin, webserver admin, wiki admin20:50
ivgalvezyes, let's say that someone is able to adimnistrate repositories but not Midgard20:51
DocScrutinizer05I can do some administrative work with real admins, be available for coordination stuff, and handle accounts20:51
ivgalvezthere won't be the same people, but there must be a responsible person (or group)20:51
ivgalvezsold20:51
kerioi mean, give them all the password so they can tag in if someone is missing, but separate the responsibilities20:51
Woody14619bYipes... I hate DST. :P20:51
kerio*passwords20:51
ivgalvezIf you are volunteering you have my vote20:51
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619b: \o/20:52
qwazixwelcome Woody14619b20:52
kerioi vote DocScrutinizer05 as the eternal leader20:52
Woody14619bcatching up on backlog. ;)  But do go ahead...20:52
ivgalvez Woody14619b, you volunteered for some tasks such as Midgard, voting machine, etc20:52
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I'm not any leader, I'm just the majordomo20:53
DocScrutinizer05in that case20:53
DocScrutinizer05holding the keys and handing them out20:53
DocScrutinizer05telling those who need them which room is available and which is occupied20:53
qwazixShouldn't this be done the other way around? Just authorizing ssh keys for people for limited time (so we can revoke them any time)20:54
DocScrutinizer05if nobody else is volunteering20:54
qwazixinstead of handing out passwords?20:54
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: sure20:54
ivgalvezso, Council should propose an administrator to Board, do we agree to propose Doc for that position20:55
ivgalvez?20:55
qwazixI agree20:55
DocScrutinizer05no objections, I've been silly enough to suggest it20:55
MentalistTraceur(I second qwazix on that ssh key point)20:55
keriowell of course20:56
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: that's a quite obvious point20:56
ivgalvezOK, then I will invite doc for next Board meeting, in which he could be officially appointed for the position if Board agrees20:56
Woody14619bivgalvex: correct.  I'm happy to help where I can with infra. :)20:56
ivgalvezWoody14619b: you did a great job with voting machine20:56
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: please give me headway to prepare my schedules20:56
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: or is next board meeting already fixed date?20:57
ivgalvezBoard meetings are at Google Hangout, (for VoIP) every Thursday at 18:00 UTC20:57
Woody14619bIt still needs lots of improvement though... adding the ability to setup an election via webpage, create electorate db, etc...20:57
MentalistTraceurIt seems we already have a majorty, but I agree was well with nominating Doc as an administator to board.20:57
MentalistTraceurs/was well/as well/20:58
DocScrutinizer05YAY, please introduce me to that google hangout thing before20:58
ivgalvezyou need a Google+ account, that sucks but..20:58
kerio>google+20:58
kerioi don't even20:58
ivgalvezI only use it for meetings20:58
Woody14619bI agree with qwazix on the setup for access.  Limited ssh access, prefereably with sudo capability for trackability. :)20:59
kerioWoody14619b: that's stupid20:59
kerioeither put trusted people in charge, or don't20:59
DocScrutinizer05yep, kinda20:59
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty hard to enable admin without giving full root20:59
ivgalvezand finishing with Board updates, no news from nemein regarding the infrastructure mess20:59
ivgalvezminutes are being cooked21:00
keriogood admins will keep notes on what they're doing21:00
Woody14619bkerio: No, it's not. Jefferson said it best:  Locks exist not to kepe theives out, but to keep honest men honest.21:00
keriobut for them, and the poor sod that will follow them21:00
DocScrutinizer05you got shell history anyway21:00
kerioDocScrutinizer05: history -c21:01
DocScrutinizer05will earn you eternal fame21:01
kerioWoody14619b: you've given them root, at that point the trust you can have *on the whole system* is just as good as the trust you had on them21:01
kerioincluding the trust you have on syslog21:02
kerioand the sudo log21:02
Woody14619bkerio: true, and any admin worth his salt can get pure root access with sudo capabilities.  But knowing there's a log vs knowing it's untracable are two different things.21:02
Woody14619bkerio: and frankly, it makes it harder (not impossible) to cover tracks.  Increasing the bar of "is it worth it"... ;)21:03
kerioi guess my point is that any admin worth having as an admin is pointless to log with external means21:03
Woody14619bJust my 2 cents on this.  It's Council/Boards call on this now.21:03
keriobecause if he's not evil, it's useless21:03
kerioand if it's evil and good, it's useless21:04
kerio*he's21:04
Woody14619bkerio: I do this to myself, on my own system... So I have a track of what I do....21:04
kerioWoody14619b: as i said, good admins will keep notes *for them* and the other admins21:04
Woody14619bIt's not about good an evil.  It's about custom and routine.21:04
kerioincluding shell history and logs of course21:04
Woody14619bJust like we don't have ops on channel here, despite the fact that most can call chanserv to get them.21:04
DocScrutinizer05there are certain best practices for admin21:05
kerioWoody14619b: that's because of freenode policy21:05
Woody14619bSame mechanism.  Having the priv is one thing.  Being in it constantly leads to doing things sloppily for most people.21:05
Woody14619bkerio: Yes, and freenode has that policy for a reason...21:05
Woody14619bAnyway... I'll stop highjacking the COuncil meeting now. :)21:05
Woody14619bWho's calling topics? :)  Probably time for the next one. ;)21:06
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619b: actually that's a point here in this chan. Right now *nobody* active could +o21:06
ivgalvezMentalistTraceur is new chairman, please move to next topic21:07
MentalistTraceurFwiw, I am inclined to agree with woody on this. Good admins should keep notes of what they do but they might not. Trusted admins won't try to break things they shouldn't, but you might not know an admin is going to abuse the power given to them until it's too late. I don't think, but I admin my knowledge in this field is not great, to set up the kind of extra security woody is talking about, even if it's still obvio21:07
MentalistTraceurusly circumventable by someone determined.21:07
MentalistTraceurBut I suppose we went off track by now, and honestly this discussion can probably take place separately.21:08
Woody14619bDocScrutinizer05: true... but I would susspect that for admin, the Board would have access to the admin account as part of their legal responsabilities in any case.  So it's less likely to be lost, as it was here.21:08
MentalistTraceur(Sorry for delay in typing that above out, as I said earlier, today my thumb-typing is not as fast as it could be.)21:08
kerioif you're giving someone root, you *have* to trust them wholeheartedly, 100%, no-question-asked21:08
keriootherwise, there's something seriously wrong with your security21:08
Woody14619bAlso, consider that if you're going to give full access to Council, as described... Do you want the next Estel to have root, or sudo?21:09
DocScrutinizer05I'll frequently log in and check syslogs and shell history, and I'll think about guidelines about best practice21:09
ivgalvezWoody14619b, that was one of the ideas considered, I was only presenting it to Council21:10
* Woody14619b nods... But again... If that becomse policy...21:10
Woody14619bThere was a reason Council is/was not given admin/mod/chanop privs at election.21:10
DocScrutinizer05I'll even set up remote syslog, so I can check that on a location no maemo admin has a way to delete it21:11
keriothat's probably why it shouldn't have that kind of direct access21:11
ivgalvezof course, but don't kill the messanger ;)21:11
Woody14619bAnd frankly, I'm quite happy that it wasn't.  Despite the fact it would have made my job running elecitons much easier. ;)21:11
DocScrutinizer05I think we beaten that horse to death now21:11
kerioDocScrutinizer05: remote syslog to multiple places is a cool idea21:11
* Woody14619b nods... Was going to suggest that, but then there's the "who watches the watchers watcher..." ;) Lol.21:12
kerioWoody14619b: we don't need to watch the watchmen watchers21:12
MentalistTraceurAlright, next topic. The remaining details of security can be ironed out in other discussions elsewhen/where, I think.21:12
keriothey don't have powers21:12
kerioMentalistTraceur: but it's fun! :(21:12
* Woody14619b calls the glue factory to cart the dead horse away..21:13
DocScrutinizer05just one last note: I'm NOT the one to find admins, nor to decide about to accept them, first instance21:13
DocScrutinizer05I'm just the gate keeper21:13
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, who would do that then?21:14
DocScrutinizer05to be discussed21:14
* Woody14619b thinks it would be best to get input on such things from the whole Council (and maybe Board as well)21:14
qwazixWe'll have to discuss that once we do have the keys to the gate21:14
DocScrutinizer05I can't do that21:14
DocScrutinizer05I can contribute21:14
DocScrutinizer05share my notion about candidates21:14
ivgalvezwho can do that?21:15
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: you said council will present suggestions to board21:15
kerioi offer myself for the position of #maemo ircop21:15
DocScrutinizer05it's still board to say YAY or NAy on each admin21:15
kerioand possibly something else, but i don't have the expertise for anything else, i believe21:15
ivgalvezOK, so process would be people volunteer or Council looks for specific expert on topic21:16
ivgalvezthen Council ratifies21:16
ivgalvezand Board appoints21:16
ivgalvezis that OK?21:16
Woody14619bCouncil does leg work, Board reviews... sounds sane to me. :)21:16
kerioisn't this a responsibility of the board though?21:16
kerioi mean, a legal responsibility21:16
ivgalvezappointing yes, recruiting can be delagated21:16
keriooh, ofc21:17
DocScrutinizer05I won't hand out access on my own discretion21:17
DocScrutinizer05I'm humbe executive of board's decisions21:17
DocScrutinizer05and scrutinizer ;-)21:18
ivgalvezok, sounds good21:18
* Woody14619b holds up his MT mask and says: "Topic 5: IRC cloaks?" :)21:18
DocScrutinizer05I *might* revoke access and present the case to board/council21:18
MentalistTraceurQuestion - so if the Board is the final say in all admins, and board holds all the keys and stuff anyway, doesn't that make a separate gatekeeper redundant? (Though the other stuff, coordinating admins, etc, revoking access in a situation where it's deemed urgent, etc, obviously still needs a person and Doc might as well be that person.)21:19
DocScrutinizer05that's the idea21:20
ivgalvezwe need an individual to do the job21:20
ivgalvezhe would be an officer of Board21:20
DocScrutinizer05I'm no experienced admin, so no way I become admin in chief21:20
ivgalvezlike treasurer21:20
ivgalvezit's not that you must be an expert of everything21:21
kerioto be fair an admin in chief is only needed if we decide to have more than a couple sysadmins21:21
MentalistTraceurAlright. That it for this topic?21:21
ivgalvezit's OK for me21:21
DocScrutinizer05I'd say yes, for now that's just good enough, we can think about it and continue discussion next time21:22
MentalistTraceurNext on the agenda is item 4, "Infrastructure", which I am uncertain about the intended meaning of as well.21:22
MentalistTraceurPerhaps whoever added this to the agenda already feels the above discussion covered it?21:23
ivgalvezwe have covered a lot of related topics already (administration)21:23
DocScrutinizer05I guess it's the abysmal state of current infra21:23
ivgalvezthe other topic is current situation21:23
ivgalvezyes, unfortunately there in no news here21:23
DocScrutinizer05well, wiki allows log in again21:24
DocScrutinizer05but still no editing21:24
ivgalvezNemein didn't respond on estimated time to fix problems21:24
ivgalveznor accepted our offering to provide help21:24
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: providing help creates same issues we just discussed with admins and trust21:24
ivgalvezWoody14619b fixed problems with voting machin for latest coding competition21:25
DocScrutinizer05you can't pick a bum from the street and give him root account for 2 days to 'help'21:25
DocScrutinizer05odds are you find your server turned into a fileshare21:26
ivgalvezin the same way someone with enough knowledge (that would be our task to find him) could help with autobuilder21:26
Woody14619bTo be fair:  What I did was code chanes in an SVN repository.  I had no access on the machine itself, just to the garage. Niels was still needed to put those changes in place.21:26
ivgalvezyep, but the problem with autobuilder is similar21:26
ivgalvezsome scripts don't work with newer Python version21:27
ivgalvezso it's something we could try to help with21:27
DocScrutinizer05yep, there's an opportunity for community participation21:27
ivgalvezbut no response at the moment21:27
Woody14619bAh ok. :)  In that case.. Perhapse we can recruit someone to install the latest python & fix/patch that?21:27
qwazixOne way to achieve this is have the server software cloned and ready to download (virtual hdd) so that someone can fix things on his local host and send the vhd for approval and inclusion.21:27
Woody14619bIs Autobuilder in an SVN somewhere?21:28
qwazixor just send the diffs of the config/scripts/whatever21:28
ivgalvezI don't know21:28
Woody14619bqwazix: Great suggestion.21:28
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619b: afaik yes21:28
DocScrutinizer05bbiab21:29
qwazix(that's also a good way for not-so-experienced people to be able to trial-and-error until they fix it)21:29
qwazixalready most of the servers are virtual21:29
Woody14619bOne issue with that is there's often a need to access databases and such.  In the case of the voting machine, for example, there's a file that contains the user/password for accessing the DB.21:30
Woody14619bThat file is the only one not checked into SVN...21:30
qwazixIf those credentials work only from localhost that's not a problem.21:31
Woody14619bA virtual image would necessetate including that (or mounting a /etc/network folder to contain such items inside the LAN)21:31
qwazix(that is the case by default with most MySql setups)21:32
Woody14619bWell, Yes.. but in this Nemien has said sever in the DMZ, since it's needed by internal and extrnal facing machines...21:33
qwazixYou could very well know the user/pass of the voting machine db but you still wouldn't be able to log in to the real server remotely21:33
DocScrutinizer05we're talking about user database for user login aiui21:34
qwazixThat thing with the internal, external and DMZ is a bit out of my capabilities, so I give up.21:35
Woody14619bYes.. You could set it up that way, but that is not how it currently is setup.  And to make those changes, requires admin level changes.  That's 80% of the problem in a lot of this.  It was thrown together for internal use, and became an external tool.21:35
qwazixShort story: we have a mess to sort out.21:35
Woody14619byup.21:35
DocScrutinizer05what's left to say?21:36
Woody14619bBut it's not *that* bad... someone spending a couple days on it could patch it up to fit the model we need.  We just need to get the right person in there, with the time, to do it. :)21:36
qwazixWe can continue discussing technical issues for hours, can we proceed to next topic if there is nothing to add?21:36
Woody14619bYup21:36
MentalistTraceurAgreed.21:37
DocScrutinizer05yes, please21:37
Woody14619bIRC Cloaks were next?21:37
DocScrutinizer05ok, why not21:37
MentalistTraceurLast item on the agenda was "Misc", which a few people have suggested be IRC Cloaks, etc.21:37
MentalistTraceurSo we move on to that now.21:37
ivgalvezok21:37
ivgalvezI'm about to live guys21:37
DocScrutinizer05IRC cloaks, access lists21:38
ivgalvezleave21:38
ivgalvezsee you later21:38
DocScrutinizer05I'll basically try to sort that out with X-Fade21:38
qwazixbye ivgalvez21:38
DocScrutinizer05bye21:38
ivgalvezbye21:38
MentalistTraceurAlright. Bye.21:38
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Woody14619bI think most of the access list stuff is done via the garage.21:38
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: you want a IRC cloak?21:38
MentalistTraceurI barely even understand how IRC cloaks work.21:39
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619b: not IRC access lists21:39
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: do a /whois DocScrutinizer0521:39
Woody14619bAhh... k. :)  My bad, though you were talking maemo.org access.21:39
DocScrutinizer05do a /whois Woody14619b21:39
Woody14619bOn that topipc: Have you had MT add himself to the garage?  He'll need that to post to the Council Blog.21:40
DocScrutinizer05dang, Woody14619b, you're not logged in21:40
Woody14619bno.. second alias account is not regged.. here. :)21:40
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Woody14619There.. all beter. :)21:41
MentalistTraceurSo it masks your host, basically, in the whois info?21:41
Woody14619It also gives people a clue as to where you are in the FOSS world...21:41
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: yep21:42
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DocScrutinizer05a lot of meamo users got /maemo/contributor or sth like that21:42
MentalistTraceur*Shrug* Sure, why not.21:42
DocScrutinizer05now do a /whois Woody1461921:43
DocScrutinizer05[Whois] Woody14619 is ~Woody@Maemo/Community/council/Woody14619 (Craig Woodward)21:43
MentalistTraceur(Already ahead of you. Whois'ed him as soon as he logged back in :) )21:43
DocScrutinizer05also we need to remove some cloaks from those who aren't council anymore21:43
* Woody14619 glaces left and right.... preparing to run!21:44
DocScrutinizer05and we should get added to access list of this channel so we can change /topic etc21:44
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: I know somebody else who really shouldn't have that cloak anymore21:44
* Woody14619 nods. Minially you should Doc. Anyone with access to #maemo really should already have it.21:45
* Woody14619 nods about that too....21:45
Stskeeps(please strip me of mine too while you're at it..)21:45
Stskeepscloak, that is21:45
DocScrutinizer05ok, Stskeeps21:45
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: please include to minutes: cloak remove: e*_, Stskeeps. Cloak add: MentalistTraceur, qwazix21:46
DocScrutinizer05I kinda feel reluctant to remove Woody14619's cloak, if none of current council got objections21:47
* Woody14619 thinks in the not too distant future Board will wind up +F21:47
qwazixno objections21:47
Woody14619Nah.. nuke it.  If there's a honorary "pastCouncil" cloak, I'm good...21:47
Woody14619But no reason to keep me showing as Council when I'm not. :)21:48
DocScrutinizer05ok, please add that to minutes too, MentalistTraceur21:48
MentalistTraceur*Nod* Will do.21:48
MentalistTraceurwhois mentalisttraceur21:48
Woody14619The only reason I even got the cloaks setup this past term was someone was pushing for it as a status symbol.21:48
MentalistTraceurThat's how I'd test it right?21:49
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: /unafilliated/* then?21:49
MentalistTraceurwhen it takes effect, but with the / in front.21:49
DocScrutinizer05or /maemo/contributor?21:49
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: yep21:49
* Woody14619 is good with whatever... including going back to my normal non-cloack self. But sure, contributor would be nice.21:50
Woody14619.oO(So long as it's not a humerious title like "Jester" or "Jackass" ;)21:50
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: qwazix: ivgalvez: you need to register to nickserv, to get any cloak21:50
MentalistTraceurThought so, wanted to wait until post-meeting to double-check21:51
DocScrutinizer05/msg nickserv help register21:51
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, I'm registered21:52
DocScrutinizer05ok21:52
DocScrutinizer05(btw I'll keep my cloak)21:52
qwazixDocScrutinizer05 how do I check registration status?21:53
qwazix(just in case)21:53
DocScrutinizer05/msg nickserv info <nick>21:53
qwazixty21:54
Woody14619Also, MentalistTraceur, you'll also want to add youself to the Council garage.21:54
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: didn't you send transscript of both channels of last week to MentalistTraceur?21:54
MentalistTraceurHe sent me that of this channel, that I remember, don't think he sent the other.21:55
DocScrutinizer05:nod:21:56
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: could you do this?21:56
DocScrutinizer05I think it got a few other useful info as well21:56
DocScrutinizer05beyond garage21:56
* Woody14619 nods... Will e-mail it. :) 21:57
DocScrutinizer05thanks!21:57
MentalistTraceurThank you.21:57
Woody14619Had to figure out how to open/join the channel again. :)21:57
DocScrutinizer05need help?21:57
Woody14619nope, got it.21:57
DocScrutinizer05I'm done with IRC stuff21:58
MentalistTraceurAlright, we've not formally ended this meeting yet,21:58
DocScrutinizer05next topic?21:58
MentalistTraceurSo, anyone have anything else to add?21:58
DocScrutinizer05misc?21:58
MentalistTraceurIf not, then the agenda's done and we can wrap up for the day.21:59
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: who's managing the council@maemo.org mail aliases?21:59
Woody14619That's X-Fade.22:01
DocScrutinizer05:nod:22:01
DocScrutinizer05weird, but ok22:02
DocScrutinizer05we should see how to change that eventually22:02
Woody14619Probably best to bundle the requests. :) (Cloaks, etc)22:02
DocScrutinizer05cloak requests will get bundled22:02
Woody14619That's one of the many things Council should be able to add to and/or remove themselves from.22:02
DocScrutinizer05mail addr needs immediate sort out, I'm not receiving council mail atm22:02
DocScrutinizer05anyway, I think meeting closed?22:03
Woody14619Ask your chairman. ;)22:03
DocScrutinizer05I just did22:03
MentalistTraceurAs I take it no one has any objections or anything else to add,22:04
MentalistTraceuryes, it is.22:04
DocScrutinizer05##meeting closed22:04
DocScrutinizer05or whatever22:05
DocScrutinizer05;-)22:05
MentalistTraceurNow I have to go figure out this meeting minutes thing and get that done.22:05
DocScrutinizer05(there once been maemobot which prepared minutes from those commands automatically)22:05
Woody14619Very simple. Steal a template, replace the date/participants, insert topics and you're almost done. ;)22:06
Woody14619Oh.  FWIW, I have a web archive of the minutes and logs.  Will attach that as well to the e-mail I'm sending?  Nothing you can't get on blog/chan-logger, with a few minor exceptions when povbot was away/split.  But handy to have none the less.22:08
MentalistTraceurSure, would be appreciated.22:09
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DocScrutinizer05hah, you already got accepted at garage22:11
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DocScrutinizer05somebody beat me on it22:11
MentalistTraceurSo the minutes ought to be essentially as formatted here?: maemo.org/community/council/community_council_meeting-aug_3-2012/22:11
MentalistTraceur(Manually typed that URL in so it might be broken)22:12
Woody14619That's how I generally have done it, yes.  :P22:12
MentalistTraceur(Just checked, URL loads fine. although woody's comment in the affirmitive beat me to that confirmation)22:13
qwazixI'll be going. I wont log off but I will be afk most of the time from now on. Goodnight.22:13
Woody14619I type it up ahead of time, e-mail it to Council for a quick "approval"  Friday, and generally post is Monday with any feedback (usually none) I got.22:13
Woody14619As for how you folks want to do it... well.. It's not at all set in stone.22:14
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: afk all fine, nobody expects you to sit 24/7 in front of IRC window (like I do ;-P)22:14
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: good night22:14
Woody14619The Council before us had 3 meetings their entire term, and no minutes to speak of.22:14
DocScrutinizer05ooh, and thanks everybody for attending meeting22:15
Woody14619qwazix: FWIW, I was the only Council on IRC most of this past term, and was only really paying attention a few hours a day during the week, if that.22:15
DocScrutinizer05well, your IRC client should highlight your nick, so it's easy to see what was up during you were afk22:17
* Woody14619 nods. You can also highlight other words with most clients.22:18
Woody14619I added "Council", "Board", and a few other choice words to catch things I was interested in. ;)22:18
DocScrutinizer05cya folks22:19
MentalistTraceurBye.22:19
* DocScrutinizer05 heads out to blame his flu22:19
Woody14619k, off to mail off a few items and will catch you all next week.22:21
MentalistTraceurOkay, closing this channel, will idle in #maemo for a while.22:28
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