IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-09-14

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Woody14619X-Fade: ping? :)17:52
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: when is the today meeting?18:21
Woody14619To my understanding, there was to be a pre-meeting with X-Fade today.  Baring that, Council should hold it's meeting at 18:00 UTC as normal18:23
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ZogG_laptopWoody14619: due logs no premeeting20:22
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: still here20:22
ZogG_laptopi want to ask you somethin if u would have chance to talk to Xfade about future of apps4meego20:22
Woody14619I was hoping X-Fade would be here for a pre-meeeting as discussed.  He's been less than responsive this week. :(20:23
Woody14619I'm open to questions about things, and will attempt to relay info where I can... What is the concern?20:23
ZogG_laptopwhat is the future?20:25
ZogG_laptopwould it be closed as well?20:25
ZogG_laptopanyway to get as well some community guys permissions there?20:26
ZogG_laptoplast time it was down for a really long time20:26
Woody14619My understanding is that it's part of the servers that will be consolidated and handed off to the community when the legal entity forms, but I do not have 100% confirmation of that.20:28
Woody14619I will add that to the list of questions for my next contact with Niels.   Right now we're trying to get CC voting underway, but are hitting a wall on that even...20:29
ZogG_laptopbut would be nice if u ask to be sure if u talk to him :P20:29
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: yeah, it's like everything falling apart20:30
Woody14619That's what happens when Nokia stops paying people to do work for them...20:30
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Woody14619X-Fade has volunteered some of his own time, but is frankly pinned a bit on this issue.  There's lots going on there. Understand: Maemo is not the only set of Nokia servers they service, nor is the only set consolidating and/or going away.20:32
djszapiN9we have been hearing the same for ages20:39
djszapiN9do not worry, everything will be fine.20:39
djszapiN9now, I really do worry.20:39
djszapiN9and I will offer a machine as soon as I can.20:40
djszapiN9but that machine will be held only for harmattan purposes with its own entity.20:40
ZogG_laptopdjszapiN9: it's not that we can do20:40
ZogG_laptopdjszapiN9: and it's bad idea to split maemo/harmattan20:41
ZogG_laptopa lot of good devs would stick to maemo20:41
djszapiN9it is ok, it is their wish.20:42
ZogG_laptopi find it's not smart but can't say no20:42
djszapiN9we cannot force people what they like spending their spare time with...20:42
djszapiN9and we do not wanna either.20:43
ZogG_laptopdjszapiN9: the question is what u can provide/do alone?20:44
ZogG_laptopcommunity is about community and work in community20:44
djszapiN9it is for the community.20:44
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ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: how is it for community?20:45
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ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: how is it for community?20:45
djszapi_I do not understand the question.20:45
ZogG_laptopit's like if you want to help you give something in20:46
ZogG_laptopbut when u take control to you it's not to community20:46
ZogG_laptopu'll need new community20:46
djszapi_I do not understand the problem20:46
ZogG_laptopand the question is if people will like the idea/want it/participate20:46
djszapi_there is a harmattan council responsible for the new machine20:47
djszapi_and for the community obs20:47
djszapi_the council will give the opportunity to leisure time contributors to actually contribute.20:47
djszapi_I do not see the problem, moreover it would solve a lot of long-time issues20:47
djszapi_issues that were presented even when you were not around.20:47
ZogG_laptopi think it would end up you and rzr alone :(20:47
djszapi_more than a year ago.20:47
Woody14619and create new ones you do not forsee, because you do not see history or perspective.20:47
djszapi_it would end up whomever makes decent contribution.20:48
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: what do you mean me not around?20:48
djszapi_just like in other communities.20:48
djszapi_it will be based on meritocracy20:48
djszapi_like the linux kernel20:48
ZogG_laptopit's always end up with politics20:48
djszapi_we have had the same problems as more than a year ago20:49
djszapi_X-Fade having control over community stuff.20:49
Woody14619so long as one person is willing/able to continue holding the reins, that system works.  When that person goes away, the community dies with that person.20:49
djszapi_and the people cannot help even if they offer their free time.20:49
djszapi_and they are trustworthy20:49
djszapi_do you know the history why we have the community repository in rzr's home?20:49
Woody14619X-Fade != Council, btw...20:49
djszapi_because the c-obs owners did not allow us to push the packages into the "Community Repository"!20:50
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: i'm with community from about 2009 and it it worked not bad20:50
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: most likely you did not know this.20:50
djszapi_but that is the history20:50
djszapi_contributors were not allowed to push packages into the community repository!20:50
djszapi_that is why we established that in a home directory!20:50
djszapi_this is an absolute no go.20:50
djszapi_and unacceptable for many including me.20:50
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: it's just you see it from your point of view i think and i think you don't know whole history20:50
* Woody14619 nods20:50
djszapi_and we would like to dismiss this operation in a community driven project with a meritocracy model.20:50
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: I was the proposal of the community repository20:51
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: and than would come other guys and tell you don't give them to push and they'll make new harmattan council as well :P20:51
djszapi_you wanna know the history of it better?20:51
djszapi_Please give up your generic arguing mode for this here.20:51
djszapi_I am about to build something better.20:51
djszapi_many people sweared a LOT about the Harmattan target on the community obs20:51
Woody14619Nothing you've said is new djs20:51
djszapi_this is factual and logged.20:51
djszapi_me and rzr have made 700+ project20:52
djszapi_more than 1000-2000 packages20:52
djszapi_and still, we were unable to take a look at the Qt5 project20:52
djszapi_when we struggled20:52
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: i never argue just to argue, but to explain somethin, same as you do from your side :P20:52
djszapi_the critical bugreports are still there.20:52
djszapi_we are unable to act.20:52
djszapi_we are blocked!20:52
djszapi_when I opened up the community repository20:53
djszapi_I gave access to many people immediately.20:53
Woody14619Zogg is frankly, correct on this.  At best, you will branch off, and later have the same issues in your split.  Worst, that split will cause the community to split, and in that way Harmattan will lose what few resources it has.20:53
djszapi_when we established the harmattan group recently on gitorious, I have added many contributors without questions!20:53
djszapi_do you see the difference?20:53
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: it's like archlinux vs gentoo :P20:53
ZogG_laptopaur is mess, while portage is clean and u have overlays20:53
djszapi_Woody14619: please read what I wrote20:53
ZogG_laptopand everyone happy20:53
djszapi_is it the same story what I did and what X-Fade did with us?20:54
ZogG_laptopu want to make a mess20:54
djszapi_if you wanna belong to the harmattan group on gitorious, let me know. I would like to add you.20:54
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: it's not now, but when u'll have a lot of packages and people trying to push and no coolabration it would be mess or you'll stop giving access just to everyone20:54
djszapi_same, if you wanna help with packaging on the community repository, please let me know.20:54
djszapi_I would love to add you there as a maintainer.20:54
ZogG_laptopthe point is that there would be only few poeple who would work on it anyway20:54
ZogG_laptopand it's not different from repo rzr have anyway20:55
Woody14619I have no issue with someone making a new repository... and encouraging an overlay effect.20:55
djszapi_it is not rzr's repo20:55
djszapi_you do not see the big picture.20:55
djszapi_nor the history.20:55
djszapi_it is THE community repository.20:55
ZogG_laptopas one x-fade has may have like ovi store persmissions and wouldn't allow everyone20:55
ZogG_laptopand while yours wouldn't20:55
ZogG_laptopso except name what's the difference?20:55
djszapi_why we had to stick with a home directory is the decision we were not even allowed to upload packages to the ex-"Community Repository".20:56
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: i see THE big picture, you don't20:56
ZogG_laptopyou still wouldn't be allowed :P20:56
ZogG_laptopyou make 10 councils you wouldn't get permissions20:56
ZogG_laptopyou want to have permissions? turn off aegis and signing the kernel and bootloader20:57
djszapi_except that we will have our own instance if I can manage the machine.20:57
ZogG_laptopso what's the difference?20:57
djszapi_and of course community people will not be blocked to upload packages to the community repository.20:57
ZogG_laptopi don't see it20:57
djszapi_this will be a fairly trivial rule.20:57
djszapi_a very big difference from the ground up.20:57
ZogG_laptopbut u can upload to rzr's repo now(yeah yeah community one) so WHAT's the difference?20:58
Woody14619Until someone commits something that screws things up, thinking it's the best thing since sliced cheese.20:58
ZogG_laptopyeah that's why aur in arch is mess20:58
djszapi_Woody14619: of course that person would be taught20:58
ZogG_laptopwith deprecated blocking and same stuff all over it :P20:58
Woody14619Then you'll block them, and most "noobs"... eventually you will only accept eliets... and you're back at square one.20:58
djszapi_and he would first need to show his quality in unstable, then testing, then stable.20:58
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: you can control 5 people or you can control 10 packages20:59
djszapi_just like how you do in other projects anyways20:59
djszapi_like Qt.20:59
ZogG_laptopbut not a lot of packages and people, and it's not their fault20:59
djszapi_it is not any different.20:59
djszapi_we have a seriously broken workflow here.20:59
ZogG_laptopi work on X and u do and we push together as i can't check all people if they work on it20:59
djszapi_me and poor rzr have been putting man years into this project20:59
Woody14619That much we agree on.20:59
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: in Linux? LOOOOOL20:59
djszapi_and we are not even allowed to add a "foobar" configuration.20:59
ZogG_laptopyou don't know the history20:59
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: I had been developing the linux for years professionally.21:00
djszapi_but sure, I do not know.21:00
djszapi_actually I also worked from 2010-201221:00
djszapi_on the harmattan kernel.21:00
djszapi_but this is a sidetrack...21:01
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: sure u don't if you say in Linux. and as well in big projects they have meetings and they decide and they have plan and work on ONE PROJECt while harmattan is not one project and it's OS21:01
Woody14619djszapi_: I'm Council... and can't add a configuration.  No one outside of Nokia and/or Nemien can.21:01
ZogG_laptopand in any OS they have unstable and QA and stuff like that21:01
djszapi_Woody14619: see?21:01
ZogG_laptopit never goes straight to repo21:01
Woody14619Which is why we're trying to change that.21:01
djszapi_that is what we need solution for, not promise.21:01
djszapi_not really.21:01
ZogG_laptopas well to do this stuff you have to have permissions and all the stuff you don;t21:01
djszapi_this is promise again just like one year ago21:01
djszapi_many people are fed up with empty promises.21:02
Woody14619You don't know your history...21:02
Woody14619There was no promise last year...21:02
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: Nokia wouldn't give you a shit, they don't care. simple as that21:02
Woody14619There was a request, which the community turned down.21:02
djszapi_I have been promised, trust me.21:02
djszapi_1) I was not aware of any requests21:02
Woody14619This case is a little different.... The severs are going away in 3 months...21:02
djszapi_2) Not me, rzr, and real harmattan contributors decided21:02
djszapi_3) I have been promised, yes. I have been, yes.21:02
Woody14619It wasn't just about Harmattan...21:02
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_:  that's your problem21:02
Woody14619By whom?21:02
Woody14619Who proimise you?21:03
ZogG_laptopyou look only from your side21:03
ZogG_laptoplike Estel21:03
djszapi_Woody14619: I can tell in private.21:03
ZogG_laptophe thought he is real contributor and rzr not21:03
djszapi_I would not like to get personal here.21:03
ZogG_laptopand you think you and rzr are and him not21:03
djszapi_the point remains21:03
ZogG_laptopso what's the difference21:03
djszapi_we have been hearing for over a year, it was going to be better.21:03
djszapi_been there, done that.21:03
Woody14619dj: please, tell me in public.. I can tell you, it was probably not anyone in Council.21:03
djszapi_I personally made up my mind to try to make this work on my own.21:03
djszapi_no matter if others disrespect my effort.21:03
djszapi_to act for the community.21:03
djszapi_I will do this for the community.21:04
Woody14619And frankly, anyone promising that a year ago was not being honest...21:04
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: it's not for community, that's it21:04
Woody14619But to hold OTHERS responsible for someone misrepresenting themselves a year ago is crazy21:04
ZogG_laptopit's to build new community when u in control for good or bad21:04
djszapi_Woody14619: it was "someone"21:04
djszapi_was not*21:04
djszapi_and no, I would not like to name a person in public21:04
djszapi_in fact since it was a private conversation.21:04
djszapi_I should ask for request first.21:05
djszapi_to be fair with that person.21:05
djszapi_so either believe now, or call me a liar.21:05
djszapi_and that is why the situation is so frustrating.21:05
djszapi_we are being told again "it is going to be cool soon"21:05
Woody14619As I said.. even if they said that, short of them being in charge AT Nokia, they had no autority to say it.21:05
djszapi_"really, this time it will be different"21:05
djszapi_"it will be really cool soon, not like other times"21:05
djszapi_so I made up my mind to go my own way.21:06
djszapi_and see if I can fix it, if others had not been able over a year.21:06
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: did they say before they discontinue Nokia?21:06
djszapi_and I take all the offense I (we) may get.21:06
Woody14619Again: You're judging what's going on now, not based on what's happening, but on your personal conversation with someone eles a year ago (who apparently didn't have the authority to speak it)21:06
djszapi_I will try to push the community forward.21:06
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: man i told you 1000 times no one judges you and against you21:07
ZogG_laptopyou take things to personal and see only black and white and only from your prospective21:07
Woody14619I'm not asking you to not do that... I asking you to look at this effort now, see how it's not the same as before.21:07
Woody14619A year ago there was funding from Nokia to keep servers running.  Now there is not.21:07
djszapi_Woody14619: we had a sprint in March21:07
djszapi_in Darmstadt with the Plasma Active folks.21:08
ZogG_laptopi do like you and resect you, but you are just not looking straight21:08
Woody14619That alone changes the fundimentals of what's going on.21:08
djszapi_the same story has been said21:08
djszapi_soon, we will have our own solution21:08
djszapi_exactly the same.21:08
djszapi_that was in March.21:08
Woody14619No, it's not.21:08
djszapi_let me find the link to the sprint.21:08
djszapi_otherwise I will be called liar again.21:08
ZogG_laptopno one calls you liar21:08
ZogG_laptopcan you listen21:08
ZogG_laptopyou are like my GF21:08
djszapi_Woody14619: do not care about Nokia.21:09
Woody14619In March, Nokia had re-uped the contract an Nemien to fund the servers.21:09
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: and i was told N9 would have support at least 5 years and Nokia said it, so?21:09
djszapi_we need a find a solution for the problem.21:09
djszapi_either it is nokia or something else, it is details.21:09
Woody14619You may not, but OTHERS do.21:09
djszapi_and the nokia way seems to be long.21:09
djszapi_it has always been long.21:09
Woody14619That is what has changed....21:09
Woody14619The other attemps didn't work becuase the community wasn't behind it.  People didn't back it.21:09
djszapi_OTHERS do not do either in my environment21:10
djszapi_I talked to.21:10
Woody14619This time there IS support, because there is not the option of following the status quo21:10
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djszapi_you can say again, I am a liar for saying so, and also my friends.21:10
djszapi_but I can assure you that this is factual.21:10
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: but it's not relevant21:10
ZogG_laptopif you speak know to listen21:10
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: so u make repo and how it would help you21:10
ZogG_laptopyou make own obs and how it would help you?21:11
djszapi_Woody14619: put it this way: I wish you good luck with the server shift.21:11
ZogG_laptopit's not like it's FOSS21:11
djszapi_I will also try my way, and hopefully we do not even need to wait until December.21:11
ZogG_laptopit's not KDE or WebKit21:11
ZogG_laptopit's not linux21:11
ZogG_laptopu can't fork it21:11
ZogG_laptopyou can't control it21:11
djszapi_me and rzr would need full control anyways21:11
djszapi_either way succeeds.21:11
ZogG_laptopall u can is make a repo21:11
Woody14619hello SD69. :)21:11
djszapi_because we have made up the repository which needs to be maintained.21:11
ZogG_laptopand contibute it to existing community21:11
Woody14619Just catching up on the recent e-mails....21:12
djszapi_and the expertise is pretty much on our side.21:12
ZogG_laptopwhat's the point of new one and new council?21:12
ZogG_laptophow it would change anything?21:12
djszapi_but anybody else could get access with willingness and trustworthiness.21:12
ZogG_laptopso u get repo and?21:12
ZogG_laptopyou do it to contribute? good... so continue, why u need control of things wich is not real control21:12
ZogG_laptopit's just pseudo21:12
ZogG_laptopand only responsobility21:13
djszapi_Woody14619: this is one topic.21:13
djszapi_Woody14619: the another is that if my device breaks, I would like to get another one to continue the work on Qt5 for the community.21:13
ZogG_laptopit's not like u have acess and tools to control harmattan anyway21:14
djszapi_but I will try to contact Quim about that as well.21:14
ZogG_laptopone more cobs would od nothing21:14
djszapi_currently I have a broken screen'ish N9.21:14
ZogG_laptopquim? so what he can do?21:14
djszapi_and see my email about; pretty worrying.21:14
djszapi_people got devices for free to work on Qt5, but who helps me?21:14
djszapi_I am the one doing everythin crazily. :)21:14
djszapi_oh yeah, and Arto is at least testing what I do. That is great.21:14
ZogG_laptophow do you know they not working on it?21:15
Woody14619djszapi_  Had you been around for CA, with the qualifications, you probably could have gotten one there.   But that was outside your community blinders.21:15
DocScrutinizer05ooh djszapi_ bashing the council? Alas some fun I have to miss, since it's dinner time now21:15
Woody14619Saddly, the only devices left are all slated for the Coding Competition.21:15
ZogG_laptophe is not Doc21:15
Woody14619Zogg: Yes, he has been....21:15
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: it's the way he talks21:16
djszapi_Woody14619: that is all the replies for a person who pushes Qt5 actually forward on Harmattan? :)21:16
ZogG_laptophe just not seeing whole picture and saying others not seeing21:16
djszapi_Not too encouraging.21:16
djszapi_but perhaps if I am gone, nobody will miss Qt5.21:16
DocScrutinizer05a short advice: djszapi_ isn't known for polite wording, and it doesn't help to ask him about that21:16
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: so you do it? and what you want us to do about it? thank you. that's all we got and that's the reason you do it21:17
Woody14619Zogg: I understand this... but trust me... After the "talks" we've had... He does in fact insult and attack.21:17
ZogG_laptopor there is other reason?21:17
djszapi_not to mention I have done that effort out of my free time, and have not asked for devices like the 25 people in there who mostly do not even do anything.21:17
ZogG_laptopsomeone stopping you and how?21:17
ZogG_laptopor you need your repo to be called official community repo to make it cooler?21:17
ZogG_laptophow does it matter if it's X repo or Y repo if it's about work21:17
ZogG_laptopi dont get it21:17
Woody14619djszapi_: I see... Would you prefer I buy you one?  Or maybe I fly to Poland to wrestle one from one of the QT5 "winners" and send it to you?21:17
Woody14619What exactly do you want us to do?21:18
djszapi_Woody14619: to contact Nokia21:18
Woody14619(This is what I asked earlier)21:18
djszapi_what a normal council would do.21:18
djszapi_to clarify this situation.21:18
djszapi_if I am gone, Qt5 is pretty much gone.21:18
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: NOKIA DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT, and it's the problem for all of us21:18
djszapi_is a device worth that for the maemo's future?21:18
djszapi_Woody14619: please remain civil.21:18
djszapi_let us not throw things at each other like "hey, you are attacking me".21:19
Woody14619And ask them to what?  Give us a device for you, which they have no more of?21:19
djszapi_otherwise I need to leave.21:19
djszapi_Woody14619: how do you *really* know they do not have more?21:19
ZogG_laptopit's so funny21:19
Woody14619Because we've asked... several times when Quim was still employed there.21:19
ZogG_laptophe just don't listen21:19
djszapi_Woody14619: I will ask Quim myself again.21:20
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: ask Elop21:20
DocScrutinizer05next topic21:20
djszapi_I hoped for more help from the council, but this is again a different value.21:20
djszapi_that I would like to represent with the harmattan council.21:20
djszapi_in such cases, I would like to represent the community.21:20
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: can u listen for aminute?21:20
djszapi_and provide as much help as possible.21:20
Woody14619I'm doubtful that someone we just got introduced to at Nokia will be "Sure, fine, here's a device for you..."21:20
djszapi_Woody14619: see my device program21:20
djszapi_for blackberry.21:20
djszapi_I was discussion overnights with RIM.21:20
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: if you would be called council why would you think you'll have opportunity to have device21:20
djszapi_to get devices for the community.21:20
djszapi_out of my free time.21:21
ZogG_laptopit's not council not giving you device21:21
ZogG_laptopthe decision is up to nokia21:21
djszapi_This is the kind of activity I hope for a council to do21:21
djszapi_to help the community people to push the project forward.21:21
Woody14619There WERE devices for this... just 6 months ago....21:21
ZogG_laptopand nokia wouldn't do even if you declare yourself a king of lulapoo21:21
Woody14619Over 100.   Where were you then?21:21
djszapi_that is my another issue why I think the harmattan council would be a good idea. We just think differently, but it is healthy.21:21
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: can you answer me?21:21
djszapi_Woody14619: "someone" has publicly available contribution in the open.21:22
djszapi_Woody14619: way more about Qt5 than most of the people gotten devices for Qt5 contribution.21:22
djszapi_it is not untrackable, and all fake with my name.21:22
Woody14619As I said earlier, had you applied for a CA device, given your qualifications and contributions, had you applied, you would have likely gotten it.21:22
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: so you are cool and they are bad, but how it changes situation?21:22
Woody14619Why did you not apply?21:22
djszapi_Woody14619: because I was unaware of it.21:22
djszapi_I do not follow tmo.21:22
djszapi_I am available through my email or irc.21:23
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: so it's your mistake and noone else21:23
Woody14619Because you were SO focused in your tiny corner of the world, so Harmattan focused, that you missed it.21:23
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: you want people to send you email to beg you to apply to get a device?21:23
djszapi_Woody14619: tiny corner?21:23
Woody14619It was on the community mailing list.21:23
djszapi_when helping tons of people out of my free time on #harmattan?21:23
djszapi_and when I was continously contributing to Qt5?21:23
djszapi_which is openly governed?21:23
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: so you do it for medalia?21:24
djszapi_or KDE.21:24
Woody14619You couldn't have missed it....  And it was highly discussed on irc.21:24
ZogG_laptopit's not the contribuion21:24
djszapi_Woody14619: nobody told to me, hey you can apply for a device.21:24
djszapi_anyway, I did not feel the need for the need for such a device earlier either21:24
djszapi_because my device was not broken21:24
djszapi_so I did not look for opportunities either21:24
Woody14619It was on the Council blog... in #maemo, here, lots of places....21:24
djszapi_but seeing the big list of people doing nothing21:24
djszapi_and devices distributed.21:24
djszapi_and I am working like hell.21:25
djszapi_to get this project forward.21:25
djszapi_I feel sad, admittedly.21:25
Woody14619I agree... but what you want is for us to undo the past....21:25
Woody14619Which we can not do.21:25
djszapi_what I would personally do is to ask Nokia.21:25
djszapi_nothing more you can do.21:25
ZogG_laptopand they asked21:25
djszapi_but it is important for the project to keep a dude around for Qt5.21:25
djszapi_but please do not do that.21:25
djszapi_I will ask Quim myself.21:26
Woody14619Which we can do, but frankly it's going to be a hard sell....21:26
djszapi_the problem is not the hard sell with the council's approach.21:26
Woody14619Especially given the attitude you've taken.  You're not exactly winning friends.21:26
djszapi_but the intention.21:26
DocScrutinizer05YES DO THAT!!!! ASK QUIM!!!21:26
djszapi_you denied this help request in the first place.21:26
DocScrutinizer05next topic!°21:26
keriowho's quim?21:26
Woody14619denied when?21:26
SD69do we have council business to address?21:26
Woody14619You mailed about this 5 HOURS ago...21:26
Woody14619Yes.. we do..21:27
ZogG_laptopkerio: he was one from nokia who made all the community communication21:27
kerioi see21:27
djszapi_Woody14619: no, I emailed about this more than 5 hours ago.21:27
Woody14619So... Lets start the meeting shall we?21:27
djszapi_but that is not the point; the point is that I got insulting questions.21:27
ZogG_laptopyay for meeting21:27
keriomeeting! meeting!21:27
djszapi_meanwhile this seems to be a straight-forward conclusion to me.21:27
djszapi_but again, please do not do that. I will sort out myself.21:27
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: you said insulting things and questons, so?21:27
Woody14619#begin Maemo Council Meeting21:28
Woody14619We have a few quick topics:21:28
Woody146191> Elections21:28
Woody146192> CC elections21:28
Woody146193> Bylaws work21:28
Woody146194> Misc.21:28
Woody14619One topic 1: Elections21:28
SD69I like single token approach - sounds good to me21:28
SD69thks woody21:28
Woody14619Elections were annouced.   There will be elections in the upcoming month.21:29
Woody14619Nominations for new members starts this weekend....21:29
* DocScrutinizer05 hides21:29
Woody14619For full information, see the blog post:
kerioi vote for him21:29
Woody14619The election will be for both the next Council.  In parallel ther ewill be a second voting instance for the formation of the Board of directors from a separate slate of candidates.21:30
Woody14619(for the new legal entity discussed on TMO, ML, here in IRC, etc.)21:31
Woody14619Topic 2: CC elections21:31
Woody14619I corrected a script for the voting machine to allow multiple elections to run off the same single token.21:31
Woody14619This has been forwarded to X-Fade, along with all the tables needed to start the election.21:32
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: good :P21:32
Woody14619I ran a test on my own server succesfully, and it seems all is good.21:32
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: any backup if the no reply from X-Fade ?21:32
Woody14619I was hopefull that he would have replied by now and set out tokens.21:32
DocScrutinizer05I volunteer for receiving test ballot email21:33
Woody14619Currently no.  The problem is we don't have an e-mail database of the existing electorate (and/or Karma to filter by)21:33
ZogG_laptopi think there should be backup plan21:34
Woody14619I can setup a machine with the votes, and even create a self-registration page.  But there would be no way to check membership.21:34
Woody14619If you have a solution to that zogg, I'm all ears...21:34
DocScrutinizer05there's hardly any21:35
Woody14619Short of hand-validating each person/e-mail address vs an account.21:35 has a page where karma is listed descending order21:35
Woody14619Which for 300+ electorates is an issue.21:36
Woody14619Yes, Doc, but there's not an e-mail there, and no way to validate that someone is who they say they are.21:36
DocScrutinizer05no way to get access to email addr without help from 'inside'21:37
DocScrutinizer05alternative: tmo-pm :-S21:37
Woody14619I could setup a page to allow people to register, check that against the list, and setup a list.  Then we could have one organizer send tokens via PMs...21:37
DocScrutinizer05not all are registered to tmo21:38
Woody14619But that requires someone to handle the PMs, and raw tokens for each voter... potential for abuse...21:38
Woody14619And not all are on TMO as Doc notes. :)21:38
Woody14619So.. Let's see what happens... Worst case, we can look at alternatives... but...21:38
Woody14619Hopefully X-Fade will see this, do the small bit of work left to do, and send out tokens this weekend.... If not, we can see about alternatives.21:39
DocScrutinizer05I guess we shouldn't "waste" time for a plan B that's hard to come up with, unless X-Fade at least vanishes from this very chan21:39
Woody14619Topic 3:  Bylaws21:39
Woody14619SD69: You noted you needed to update the bylaws to include material about future elections (karma computation, etc)21:40
Woody14619We really need to get that done and out there, as nominations start next week.21:40
SD69I'll do it this weekend21:40
SD69they won't mention karma by name21:40
Woody14619I think we can call it that, still, and even swipe how it's computed from the web page, but just replace "TMO" with "the designated community forum" and "Thanks" with "Thanks, Likes, or a similar mechanism"21:41
SD69are we sure we will have a community forum?21:42
SD69and all the components tha are in the present karma?21:42
Woody14619We will at the very least have a facebook forum....21:42
kerioew, facebook?21:42
Woody14619We already have control of the fan page on FB.21:42
Woody14619I agree... but again, that's a worst case.21:43
Woody14619I'm sure, if faced with that, someone will spring to the rescue and setup something basic enough to be a forum (maybe even me. ;)21:43
DocScrutinizer05I had a (not really) cursory look at bylaws, and I missed something I thouhgt was essential: Hildon Foundation planning to take responsibility for Nokia (c) stuff, like the base repos etc21:44
Woody14619I"m just saying, make the wording vuage enough to cover the contingency of having something other than TMO.21:44
Woody14619The wording is there, but generic.  And it does need a touch up on that reguard.  (Noted in the TMO thread by jaylst)21:45
kerioplease add pdiff support to the new repos21:45
Woody14619kerio, if we're lucky, we'll get the current repos as is.  And then hopfully will be able to put key people in charge of pieces to fix and add support for such things.21:46
kerioalso, can't we refer to "thanks, likes or a similar mechanism" just as "karma"?21:46
ZogG_laptopthanks is not good idea21:46
Woody14619Karma is a lot more than that...21:46
ZogG_laptopas todays "noobs" thanking ecah other for spaming and lol posts :P21:46
Woody14619Karma includes garage work, check in transactions, and lots more.21:46
DocScrutinizer05wiki edits21:47
Woody14619You can, in fact, have lots of Karma without ever being on TMO.21:47
DocScrutinizer05all karma up for wiki spammers ;-P21:47
Woody14619Reguardless, we want to copy most of that in place, just make the wording vuage enough to cover the bases if some of it goes away or chagnes form.21:48
DocScrutinizer05"currently this consists of: ...."21:48
Woody14619SD69: If you want someone to bounce things off of, please feel free to mail me.  I'll be able to check and reply to mail most of the weekend21:48
SD69woody14619: OK21:49
Woody14619Well, Bylaws need a bit more of an authorative tone.  So, more like "From X done in Y (if available)."21:49
Woody14619But yes, the same idea...21:49
Woody14619And finally, topic 4:  Misc. :)21:50
SD69Hildon Foundation does not currently exist - you can't have an external reference21:50
SD69in the bylaws21:50
SD69Misc. - we need someone to handle bank account, and preferably donations too21:51
Woody14619Doh! Forgot about that.21:51
Woody14619Yes.. I can attempt that if need be.  But my understanding was we needed to get the foundation started before the account could be made.21:51
DocScrutinizer05bank account: muuuuch fun21:51
Woody14619And I'll need papers from that in order to start the other, yes?21:52
SD69We should offer it to Ivan, but he has been doing so much other work, I understand if he is not interested21:52
Woody14619I assume my check for startup costs hasn't gotten there quite yet... I mailed it Wed, so... 2 days may not have show up  yet.21:52
Woody14619I would be happy to be a fall-back in that case.21:52
DocScrutinizer05you'll need an account with multiple signing persons21:53
SD69woody14619: thanks.  I'll get an IRS Tax ID No.21:53
Woody14619The only two of us close enough to each other to multi-sign would be SD69 and myself...21:53
DocScrutinizer05:nod: that's why I said fuuuun21:53
Woody14619We're only, what... 300 miles apart?21:54
SD69yes, I hope there is still a bank with branches in both WNY and WPA21:54
Woody14619Maybe less?21:54
SD69Less - my parents live in Jamestown, NY21:54
Woody14619I have a property in Angelica, not far from there.  (Where I weekend actually, until October)21:54
ZogG_laptopi hope all this wouldn't make it more about politics afte foundations as there are too much already :P21:55
Woody14619That's part of why we're keeping Council and Board separatly, Zogg.21:55
Woody14619But frankly, as already noted, all things are political.21:55
Woody14619OK.. So misc? :)21:56
ZogG_laptopand it's mostly the worst time for that21:56
Woody14619Council received e-mail, essentially on the same lines as the topic of conversation before the meeting....21:56
SD69I guess X-Fade is awol on community OBS as well?21:56
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: ?21:56
Woody14619Has been for some time actually...21:56
ZogG_laptopwhat email21:56
Woody14619Essentially your discusison pre-meeting, in e-mail form.21:57
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: oh the harmattan foundation?21:57
SD69I haven't seen a community OBS meeting on #maemo-meeting logs in some time21:57
djszapi_I will try to set up a new instance fwiw.21:57
ZogG_laptopSD69: as there were no discussion :P21:57
Woody14619sd69: Yes... since Nokia cut funding, he's not been active on that project.21:57
djszapi_he has not been before that either...21:57
djszapi_we still have one year old bugs.21:58
djszapi_critical ones.21:58
Woody14619djs: This is a non-Harmattan project...21:58
SD69I'd like us to hold on to your voting script so we can have elections in new entity w/o depending on X-Fade21:58
Woody14619Agreed.... That's all open.  The part we lack is the e-mail database...21:58
ZogG_laptopSD69: that's what i said plan B is haveto21:59
Woody14619And way to authenticate against Maemo.org21:59
Woody14619If we had either of those, we could easily setup a separate registration system.21:59
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: is it TMO accounts or actually....21:59
ZogG_laptopso reggie wouldnt help here21:59
DocScrutinizer05ZogG_laptop: tmo is basically irrelevant21:59
djszapi_Woody14619: what project is this?22:00
Woody14619Sadly, no.  TMO is but one component.22:00
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: voting22:00
ZogG_laptopfor CC and than Council/Board22:00
Woody14619djs: The OBS project we were talking about the combined OBS project, creating a single OBS for Fremantle, Harmattan, (and maybe Diablo)22:00
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: any volontures for council/board already?22:01
SD69Tim Samoff volunteered for the Board22:01
ZogG_laptopSD69: nick?22:01
Woody14619We had one pre-mature self-nomination for a Board position.  But formal nominations dont' start till next week22:01
ZogG_laptopwhat about mr E. :P22:01
Woody14619Again, nominations start next week.22:01
Woody14619Join/check the community mailing list to watch the action.22:02
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: if i nominate you, would you be grumpy as board as well?22:02
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i'm on list22:02
Woody14619On that note:   Jaffa has volunteered to play refere in the ML again22:02
djszapi_Woody14619: creating where?22:02
DocScrutinizer05I'm undecided about board, i'd reject any council nomination22:02
Woody14619And Mr. C has agreed to take on doing the wiki page again.22:02
SD69not sure about nick?22:02
Woody14619djs: Creating on an independant set of boxes at Nemien.22:03
djszapi_Woody14619: please use my full nick name.22:03
djszapi_with or without confidential data?22:03
ZogG_laptopSD69: just checked it, no idea who is he22:03
Woody14619djszapi_: it was setup to pull the confidential packages off of an existing server22:04
SD69he was on council a couple of years ago22:04
ZogG_laptopSD69: Tim?22:05
Woody14619stskeeps and javispedro were active with working on it, using SB2 and doing cross-compilin22:05
djszapi_I have another important question, but I will ask after the meeting because I do not know if off-topic.22:05
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: it's misc now, so shoot22:05
djszapi_sb2 is a big no go for Harmattan22:05
SD69ZogG: could be22:05
Woody14619djszapi_: stskeeps and javispedro would disagree with that....22:05
djszapi_they do not do the packaging for Harmattan...22:06
Stskeepsi don't want to get into a discussion with djszapi, but sb2 has succesfully built most of harmattan as testcase on each release22:06
DocScrutinizer05ooh? they don't?22:06
Stskeepsit's just that somebody needs to take the effort to do something about it in a OBS setting22:06
DocScrutinizer05in my book javispedro built some packages22:07
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: btw i have a question.22:07
djszapi_Woody14619: there are several issues with sb2, but let us discuss the technical details later.22:07
StskeepsZogG_laptop: i'd love to stay but i've just come home from a business trip and i should spend time with my wife instead of sitting on irc. tomorrow?22:07
SD69stskeeps: do Mer and Maemo need to confer on cOBS22:07
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: for now cobs uses source on it's own server, is there option to make it optonal to pull from git/svn rather than cobs itself? would be hard to integrate?22:08
* DocScrutinizer05 waves at Stskeeps22:08
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: ok, later22:08
DocScrutinizer05about time for dinner22:09
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: liar, u said it was lunch time22:09
Woody14619thanks for the input stskeeps.   We do need to chat some time, after elections maybe?22:09
Woody14619so, any other misc topics for Council?22:09
djszapi_most importantly harmattan does not officially support sb222:09
DocScrutinizer05any other pressing topic?22:09
djszapi_so it is presumably a hack to get some "consistency" with other systems which do, so kinda violation of the official support.22:10
ZogG_laptopthere is no offial support for harmattan anymore22:10
StskeepsSD69: as i've stated before, we're (community wise) at a state where we won't get anything done for free for us and the load that each community generates needs to be covered by that community. We have in the past done a non-sb2 accelerated debian package cross compilation that people are more than welcome to take.22:10
djszapi_Woody14619: the question what I was about to ask that: how do you know that if the server shift will be successful?22:10
StskeepsSD69: Mer COBS is coming but it will not be having harmattan targets at first as it's too much load compared to who's investing into it. When we have hildon foundation, it's much easier to deal with that topic22:11
Woody14619We don't....22:11
DocScrutinizer05o/ cya22:11
Woody14619We are attempting to do everything in our power to make it work.  But frankly, there are no guarantees.22:11
StskeepsSD69: and yes, let's keep on having the sync meetings22:12
djszapi_so you cannot again say we only need to wait a bit, and then everything will be fine.22:12
SD69stskeeps: will do22:12
Woody14619djszapi_: Nobody, short of someone will a few million to throw at this project, can do that....22:13
djszapi_this is why I decided to try from a distinct angle (as well).22:14
Woody14619djszapi_: All I can offer is that we're closer than we've been before, and frankly, there's a real-life fire going to keep the preasure on.22:14
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: having title of council is not making you wizard with all power.22:14
Woody14619Which is all fine and good.  I just ask that you don't do so at the impetiment of the rest of the community.22:15
djszapi_Woody14619: the community has been in such a situation for over a year.22:16
djszapi_that is why the current effort is needed.22:16
Woody14619No... It has not...22:16
djszapi_oh really?22:16
djszapi_so my one year old bug is fixed, I just do not see it? :)22:16
Woody14619Until 2 months ago, there was perpetual funding from Nokia.  If nothing happened, things would remain as they are.22:16
djszapi_and we got permissions to take a look at the bug, we just did not realize? :)22:16
Woody14619I'm not talking about bugs.22:16
Woody14619Bugs != a fire22:16
Woody14619If it didn't work a year ago, servers would still be on.  Buggy, sure.. but on.22:17
Woody14619If things don't work this time, NOTHING exists in 3 months.22:17
Woody14619I call that different.22:17
djszapi_you can, but we do not have more guarantee than back then22:18
djszapi_I have been always told just wait a bit, and things were going to change.22:18
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: and few bugs from maemo critical ones were not fixed till people from community did and made xssu22:18
Woody14619Again, I never claimed to "guarantee" anything.  I said we have a better chance this time, because we must succed.22:18
djszapi_to be honest, the whole c-obs is a blackbox for the community22:19
djszapi_it is not even documented how it is supposed to work.22:19
djszapi_for users!22:19
Woody14619K.. Seeing not further topics?22:19
ZogG_laptopthan do documention help users22:19
djszapi_I always felt the need for succeeding.22:19
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i think that's it22:19
Woody14619#end Maemo Council meeting22:19
djszapi_it is not any different this time.22:19
djszapi_I have always wanted the project win.22:19
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: don;t forget elase about apps4meego22:19
djszapi_kinda time-agnostic.22:20
SD69bye every122:20
Woody14619I will note it Zogg.  Hopefully my assumed answer is correct, but I will not know for sure until I chat with them.22:20
Woody14619thanks sd69. :)22:21
ZogG_laptopthank you22:22
ZogG_laptopand night everyone22:22
ZogG_laptopor whatever time is it there you have22:22
djszapi_Woody14619: we always had promises.22:23
djszapi_this time the promise is the Nokia takeover.22:23
Woody14619Feel as you wish....  I will not argue with you over this.22:23
djszapi_we would probably believe this if it had not been happening for over a year.22:24
djszapi_in different forms.22:24
Woody14619Which part of "I will not argue with you over this" did you not read?22:24
djszapi_not to mention, it is not an accident the packagers are mostly me and rzr.22:26
djszapi_we have seen many people frigthened away by this c-obs setup, clearly swearing on #harmattan by its setup.22:26
Woody14619One word of advice:  Next time you ask a body politic to ask for something on your behalf, you may get a better reply if you don't insult and argue with them about every topic under the sun while doing so.22:27
djszapi_most of them just left after the first tries.22:27
djszapi_I would appreciate remaning civil.22:28
djszapi_so we lost tons of people for our community due to the c-obs situation.22:28
djszapi_we had at least 8-10 packagers in the beginning for the community repository.22:29
djszapi_speaking of javispedro and c-obs, he was actually the one few weeks ago collecting the issues with it on his page how much it sucks.22:29
Woody14619That was civil.... You seem to misinterpret someone giving you (valid) criticism as being uncivil.  Whle you yourself devolve into incivilty easily.22:29
Woody14619I would encourage you to have a talk with someone here... Estel_   I think the two of you would hit it off.... Or kill each other.  I'm not sure which.  Reguardless, have a good day/night.  I'm off.22:30
* djszapi_ checks if there is code of conduct for council members22:32
Woody14619Lol... Yes.. It's the same one you have as a volunteer.22:33
DocScrutinizer05this is a meeting channel, usually not appropriate for <ACTION>, particularly not for random thoughts expressed in <ACTION>22:33
djszapi_Woody14619: I really do not see where an insult occured.22:37
*** Woody14619 has quit IRC22:37
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: and a lot of people were scared by aegis btw :P22:40
ZogG_laptopmore people than by cobs :P22:40
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: disagree22:40
ZogG_laptopgoogle it :P22:41
djszapi_most of the people do not even need to care about the security.22:41
djszapi_it just works for them.22:41
ZogG_laptopnot be able to change system packages22:41
djszapi_nothing proves that better than 700+ project in the community repository22:41
djszapi_so over 1000-2000 packages.22:41
djszapi_without /any/ security issues.22:41
ZogG_laptopi mean not just port and repackage22:41
djszapi_you do not need to think of that system change if you cannot even package your stuff with c-obs....22:42
ZogG_laptopi managed to package22:42
ZogG_laptopit took me weeks22:42
ZogG_laptopand i didn't like it22:42
ZogG_laptopbut as i see for most maemo hackers with bugs they fixed in maemo that nokia didn't and updates and changes and addons22:43
ZogG_laptopwhat stopped them was aegis22:43
ZogG_laptopand apps are important but smooth OS and updates is important as well22:45
ZogG_laptopso please22:45
djszapi_you cannot fix aegis22:45
djszapi_community obs can be fixed22:45
djszapi_also, you use inception anyways22:45
ZogG_laptopyes but it's not user friendly22:46
djszapi_so I do not understand the problem.22:46
djszapi_aegis issue fixed22:46
djszapi_community obs has never been solved.22:46
djszapi_and we were blocked with kdelibs for months?22:47
djszapi_and we have been blocked with qt5 for weeks already?22:47
ZogG_laptopnoone stops you from creating own repo22:47
ZogG_laptoplike it was in maemo22:47
ZogG_laptoppeople did it and offered others to use it22:47
djszapi_I will create my own OBS instance once I can get a machine.22:47
djszapi_do not worry about that.22:47
djszapi_the community repository will also be ported22:47
djszapi_it will not stay on c-obs by that time.22:48
djszapi_there is no so.22:48
djszapi_this is the idea.22:48
ZogG_laptopi support it22:48
djszapi_which was offended here the whole day.22:48
ZogG_laptopyours was to make it another council and more politicis22:49
djszapi_someone would need to decide over the machine.22:50
djszapi_and since it would be my initiation I would for sure like to have right for that.22:50
djszapi_I do not see the problem?22:51
djszapi_not to mention, I would support contributors. If they need devices for a serious contribution like Qt5 for moving the project forward, they would have my full support.22:52
djszapi_just like how I launched the blackberry device program.22:52
djszapi_there are fundamental value distinctions here.22:52
djszapi_which better not to mix up because one will call other "insulting".22:52
djszapi_which is not too civil unfortunately, but can happen.22:52
djszapi_it is not worth it.22:52
DocScrutinizer05indeed, please take it elsewhere23:11
DocScrutinizer05probably everybody in here got his own private repo, but nobody except you is bitching about it so much23:12
djszapi_we have been discussing community, not private stuff.23:12
DocScrutinizer05you're definitely NOT community23:13
DocScrutinizer05you're maybe, just maybe, part of community23:13
DocScrutinizer05and you're not representing community23:14
djszapi_yes, I do.23:14
DocScrutinizer05and that won't change whatever council you instantiate23:14
DocScrutinizer05so definitely, take it elsewhere!23:15
keriobesides, gtk > qt anyway23:16
djszapi_kerio: it is not about qt or gtk.23:16
djszapi_it is about a community work.23:17
djszapi_and the enormous amount of time I wasted from my life along with rzr to use this crappy c-obs instance.23:17
djszapi_other people expressed this a bit more radically on #harmattan along the months.23:17
djszapi_kerio: fwiw, gtk2 is as much blocked as qt5 currently.23:18
djszapi_on the community obs.23:18
djszapi_kerio: nobody knows why.23:18
djszapi_not even gtk developers, or even us packagers having somewhat expertise about c-obs.23:19
djszapi_kerio: just to show not speaking out of context:
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: how you don't get, BB device you got coz it is still supported23:21
ZogG_laptopnokia doesn't support harmattan23:21
ZogG_laptopu can do anything you want but there are no support or devices from nokia23:21
ZogG_laptopu may get replacement for urs as you got it from nokia or bought but it wouldb be personal23:21
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: I did not get any BB devices.23:21
djszapi_I think you confuse me with someone else...23:22
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: u said about bb earlier23:22
* djszapi_ has never said to have gotten a BB device...23:22
DocScrutinizer05no, he can NOT do what he wants. He can NOT bitch here about council allegedly not supporting him. Council knows situation about devices, and if he wants to talk to Quim personally he THE FSCK DOES that and stops bitching here23:23
ZogG_laptopor what ever u got from rim to help them with qt on bb23:23
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: lol23:24
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: I got exactly nothing.23:24
DocScrutinizer05and we do care exactly zero23:25
ZogG_laptopdjszapi_: so?23:25
DocScrutinizer05if you think you can crank up another DDP program, FINE! just DO IT23:25
ZogG_laptopsome people and devs who made free apps people use daily bought devices themselves for own money23:26
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: so you were wrong.23:26
ZogG_laptopi'm not dev or contributor but i never got n900 or n923:26
ZogG_laptopi got n950 after but it was akward and only coz noone almost participate23:26
DocScrutinizer05take that to a private query! NOW!23:26
DocScrutinizer05both of you!23:26
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: ?23:30
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