IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-07-13

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Estel_Morning, ladies and guys.19:51
rzrhi19:53
rzrmeeting in 6mins ?19:54
Estel_1 hour and 6 min :)19:54
Estel_(it's almost 17 UTC now, we're meeting @ 18 UTC)19:55
Estel_Will You attend to meeting?19:55
rzri\ll try to19:56
rzri want to save obs :)19:56
rzrglad to see X-Fade is here19:57
Estel_Nice to hear that :)20:05
Estel_I'm literally dying for more Community input in Council's meetings.20:07
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ZogG_laptopdid i miss it?20:32
rzrno you're on time20:41
ZogG_laptopyeah google is awesome "UTC time" would return you the current time =P20:41
rzrhttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=utc+time20:43
Estel_It's still 10 minutes to meeting20:50
rzrZogG_laptop,  /exec -o date -u20:59
Estel_All right, it's 18 UTC21:00
rzrFri Jul 13 18:00:07 UTC 201221:00
Estel_ivgalvez,  Woody14619, ping21:00
ivgalvezEstel_ pong21:00
Estel_hi ivgalvez :) I've pinged You via private message, while ago21:00
Woody14619I am here... We are waiting on Rob and Niel?21:00
Estel_sure, 5 minutes as always?21:01
ivgalvezlet's wait a few minutes for SD6921:01
ivgalvezNiel will be late21:01
Estel_X-Fade will try to drop @ 19 UTC21:01
ivgalvezthat would be great!21:02
ivgalvezunfortunately I need to leave at that time21:02
Estel_Woody14619,  meantime, hour ago, I've asked You about something: let me quote:21:02
Woody14619I will be available in that time frame.  We really need to get an update on OBS and how others can help out.21:03
Woody14619I saw your post Estel21:03
Woody14619I will reply in time.21:03
Estel_<Estel_> Woody14619,  could You, kindly, see: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84647&page=1121:03
Estel_<Estel_> ...I think that commenting and clearing it is quite important thing to do before today's Council's meeting :)21:04
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Estel_thanks, I hoped You weill manage to clear it out before meeting21:04
Woody14619As a pre-meeting:  The only agenda item I see currently is discussion of the bylaws document written up Rob.21:04
Estel_will*21:04
ivgalvezI'd rather focus on imprtant stuff21:04
Woody14619I will do this on my own time Estel.21:04
ivgalvezi.e. bylaws21:04
ivgalvezand infrastructure21:05
Woody14619Are there additional topics needed today?21:05
ivgalvezOK, we are all, Woody14619 please proceed21:05
Estel_well, considering low ammount of agenda items njow, and ammount of bad taste such suggestions on TMO are making, I see it as approriate to clear it during recorder, public meeting.21:05
rzrbackuping wiki / obs ?21:05
ivgalvezHi rzr21:05
Woody14619I will add the topic rzr, but most of that would need input from X-Fade.21:06
ZogG_laptopEstel_: personal matters later, leave it to the end if you want it so bad21:06
Woody14619OK. Let's start then.21:06
Estel_could we start with summing up tasks appointed during last meeting...21:06
SD69hello21:06
Estel_then?21:06
Estel_hi SD69, nice to have You here21:06
Woody14619#start Maemo Council meeting21:06
Woody14619Topics for todays meeting:21:06
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: it would be nice to have the work to be more public, i think there are a lot of users who want to help with input21:07
Woody14619Review and progress with bylaws (next steps)21:07
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  we appreciate every input, but lets process as per agenda, ok?21:07
ivgalvezI have already contacted with X-Fade as agreed in last meeting to ask for administration privileges of some (or most) Maemo systems, so we could start working groups for these tasks21:07
ivgalvezso if he comes later21:07
ivgalvezthat topic could be discussed21:07
ZogG_laptopok21:07
Woody14619Infrastructure discussion21:07
Estel_ivgalvez,  saw it, very well written21:07
Woody14619Misc topics (AI review, summary, etc)21:07
rzrside question is meego.com infrastructure doomed also ?21:08
Estel_why so?21:08
ivgalvezmeego.com is a dead man walking I'm afraid21:08
Estel_ah, You mean meego as not related to Mer21:08
Woody14619First, to Rob and Ivan:  Thank you for the followups to X-Fade and Qgil.  We should ask that all e-mails be directed to Council if we can though, so we're all in the loop.21:08
rzrwell it is still online, i guess there is no migration planned ?21:08
Woody14619(eg the mail from Qgil was just to Rob until he coppied it in to Council w/ his reply)21:09
Estel_rzr,  no one contacted us about anything meego (as per nokia) related21:09
Woody14619Topic 1: Bylaws and formation of new entity21:10
Estel_Woody14619,  I agree - it just makes things easier for cooperation.21:10
Woody14619SD69: It looks like the feedback on the mailing list is positive.  Should we start the discussion  on TMO as well?21:10
SD69OK with me21:11
ivgalvezI think we should, not everyone follows mailing list21:11
Estel_Well, most of comments were made through mail, on community mailing list. Icluding very helpful suggestions from both Andre21:11
Estel_yea21:11
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i think it's always should be discussed in all channels21:11
ivgalvezwe could publish it via Council blog21:11
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  we preffwer less chaotic approach.21:11
Woody14619How do we want to put this out in a way that people won't later come back and say "I never saw this!"21:11
Estel_ivgalvez,  but what about suggestions from mailing list?21:11
Estel_should we update bylaws using them?21:12
ivgalvezfirst, we need to update it yes21:12
ZogG_laptopEstel_: tru there is a lot of offtopic on TMO, but there are a lot of people who do not read maillist and have valuable input21:12
Woody14619I think the mailing-list suggestions are being folded in.21:12
Estel_most of them sounded sane, others were polished21:12
ivgalvezit was AI for SD69 from latest meeting ;)21:12
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  sure, that's why we're planning to threat vTMO input as of exactly same importance :)21:12
SD69I can update the bylaws if that is wanted21:13
Estel_So, SD69, do You agree that it's best to appoint publishing them on TMO to You?21:13
ivgalvezyes please21:13
Woody14619Okey.  Maybe we can even use the wiki, as it allows discussion and markup?  Just a thought.21:13
Estel_Good idea.21:13
SD69I will start a thread for the bylaws21:13
ivgalvezthe document could be transcribed to the Wiki21:13
Woody14619I would like to try to wind up the process of getting approval ASAP though and get the paperwork in to get this moving.21:13
ivgalvezbyut we need to be careful21:14
Estel_I'll ask IRc chanops (read: DocScrutinizer, most likely) to change IRC topic21:14
Estel_so it will point to bylaws discussion21:14
ivgalvezto avoid unjustified  modifications21:14
Estel_Woody14619,  sure, but we need to make rules precise, as changing them latter is quite troubling21:14
Estel_ivgalvez,  trackingt changes should prevent that21:15
ZogG_laptopEstel_: that can be useful, but most of the old members always online, they wouldn't see topic =\21:15
Estel_I can take "detective" work on me21:15
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  sure, but it is everything we can do re informing on IRC :)21:15
Woody14619What do you mean by that Estel_?  "Detective work"?21:15
Woody14619Reguardless, wiki roll-backs and edits are pretty easy to work with.21:15
Estel_I feel urge to write that I mean tracking whose cut leg was found on trash bin, but, seriously21:16
ZogG_laptopEstel_: maybe than to add ~future and ~bylaws, people use those fancy things21:16
Estel_I meant wiki edits history21:16
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  good idea21:16
Estel_so, to sum this up: SD69 update bylaws and write them on TMO, Estel creates wiki page and prevents vadalism...21:17
Estel_+ covers up informing IRC channel21:17
Estel_right?21:17
Woody14619K.  So, SD69, you will fold in suggestions from the mailing list, and re-present them to TMO?  I think the best way is probably via a council blog post.21:17
SD69OK21:17
Estel_it auto-creates thread on TMO, but ONLY if proper "abstract" field is provided21:17
Estel_I learned it hard way - it was why initial blog entries haven't resulted in TMO thread.21:18
Woody14619That will re-hit the mailing list, start a TMO thread, etc.  Estel_ can then setup a wiki page to reference and add said reference to the TMO chain.21:18
ivgalvezsound fine21:18
Estel_yes, said.21:19
Estel_so, next point?21:19
Woody14619Awesome.   So, part two of this:  How do we want to get "final by in"?21:19
SD69changes are going to have to be valid and prudent for bylaws21:19
Estel_SD69, sure21:19
Estel_no one said You must implement them literally21:19
Estel_i.e. commons sense and lawyer sense apply :)21:19
ivgalvezlet's see Quim response to SD69 email regarding Maemo trademark21:19
Estel_Yes, but no need to wait for it before starting TMO thread. Agree?21:20
ivgalvezsure21:20
Woody14619Do we want to just have a cut-off date, or a poll, or?  I think a actual "vote" is a bit much...21:20
ivgalveza poll in the TMO thread could help21:21
Estel_I think referendum would be approriate.21:21
Estel_I mean, before final cut.21:21
ZogG_laptopi have suggestions regarding TMO posts21:21
Woody14619I want to make sure people feel they had input into this, since we do want them donating.21:21
Estel_I want their input, not only feeling21:21
ZogG_laptopi would suggest to talk to moderators and make one close thread with only updates and link to discussion thread21:21
Estel_;P21:21
ZogG_laptopso we keep one clean and one with everything (inluding unpreventable offtopic)21:21
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  any important change is posted on Councils blog anyway, which creates new thread...21:22
Woody14619Estel_, a referendum takes a lot to setup.21:22
Estel_so, splitting such new thread into two another threads (annoucement and discussion) sounds like unnecessary21:22
Estel_Woody14619,  indeed, but before making SUCH change, we should check if majority of active people support it21:22
Woody14619Zogg, I like the idea, but implimenting that and bugging a moderator every time we want to append would be painful.21:22
Estel_if not, other variant is winding-up, or foundation by minority21:23
ivgalvezI agree that splitting threads seems unnecesary, about referendum, wouldn't it be better to associate with first boar election21:23
ZogG_laptopAs well regarding new Board, i'll repeat my maillist comment - I think it's important to have main developers of CSSU to be there, at least few to represent and be involved with community and decisions21:23
ivgalvezotherwise it will be overwhelming21:23
Estel_also, referendum mkay be necessar4y, if clear 2 or 3 visions will appear during discussions21:23
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  have Y^ou asked main developers of CSSU if they want be there?21:23
Estel_Last time I tried to buggy freemangordon and Pali about them becoming Councilors, they refuased21:24
Woody14619Interesting idea ivgalvez... to merge the elections and referendum.  I like that idea.21:24
Woody14619But the problem with that is, it will delay formation.21:24
Estel_ivgalvez,  yea, but before we can elect Board, we need to know decisions about whole board shape and reesponsibilities21:24
ZogG_laptopEstel_: that's why i think we need position when they are "representing devs"21:24
Woody14619To actuall form the entity, one must have bylaws on which they will be running (correct SD69?)21:24
Estel_It may be depending on decisions about shape of foundation.21:24
ivgalvezZogG_laptop, Council (or Board) takes a lot of time even just for email checking, maybe those more involved with development don't like this kind of work21:25
Estel_ivgalvez,  exactly21:25
ivgalvezwork of Council is to provide developers what they need21:25
Estel_their argumentation was that they like us - i.e. Community "activist" to be in Council21:25
ivgalvezotherwise they won't develop21:25
Estel_so they can code in peace21:25
Estel_and reffer to us when needed21:25
ivgalvezbut sure we will need developers (or administrators) to maintain the infrastructure21:26
Estel_ok, I think we can leave referendum thing to post-TMO discussion - we will se if there is - generally - consensus, or 2 or more "Strong supported" yet mutually exclusive shapes21:26
ZogG_laptopivgalvez: they do not like to talk about it and politics, but again i think it's more healthy. the Board can be divided in few parts imho and not like now 5 councils. i think more people have responsobilities more poeple involved21:26
Estel_agree?21:26
Woody14619OK.  so we're at en pass...21:26
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  for that we have working groups and their leaders21:26
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  have You seen discussion in mailing list?21:26
Woody14619This is topic is not super critical, but me must think on it and make a decission soon.21:26
ZogG_laptopEstel_: partly, i had exam yesterday, hardly have time =21:27
ivgalvezlet's say that merlin1991 volunteers to be repo administrator, he doesn't need to discuss about other questions he's not interested in21:27
rzrlet me remind a suggestion what do you thing about spreading an archive of the wiki  ?21:27
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  no problem, please read it to have wide horizon about whole idea :)21:27
Estel_rzr,  define spreading?21:27
rzrtar && torrent21:27
Woody14619We may also need to consider that the election machine may not be viable long term.  We need to look at getting something to replace it soon, preferably something very close to the existing system.21:27
Estel_why so? We, probably, can just get it's database21:28
Estel_if not, Rest assured, we will make copies21:28
Estel_Woody14619,  not true, election machine is FOSS21:28
Woody14619It's a lot more than a database.21:28
Estel_available and runnable almost everywhere21:28
ZogG_laptopyes, but isn't it related to karma and TMO and MO memeberships?21:29
Estel_i.e. election machine can be run on any, even quite small scale, server. Basically, any server we will have to serve our needs.21:29
Estel_See bug report about last election start.21:29
Woody14619That's great.  But even with the openness of it, some will bulk if it's nost hosted on Nokia hardware, citing it could be tampered with.21:29
Estel_Woody14619,  not related, as whole foundations will be managed by some people, so they can tamper with "everything"21:29
ivgalvezmy biggest concern now is TMO, without a proper continuation of service, we are almost doomed21:30
Estel_i.e it's either good bylaws and rules = trust for Board, or lack of trust at all21:30
Woody14619And yes, generating tokens is simple, figuring out who to make tokens for and where to send them is another problem entierly.21:30
Estel_BTW, voting mechanism ensures, that everyone can check if their votes were assigned and how.21:30
Estel_or do re-calculation21:30
Estel_to confirm official results21:30
Woody14619All facts I'm aware of Estel_21:30
Estel_ivgalvez,  I ho9pe Reggie will change mind - if nbot, I have idea of smart replicating mechanism21:31
Woody14619That will not be enough to pursuade everyone though that tampering is impossible.21:31
Woody14619K... This has veared...21:31
ivgalvezrefocus please21:31
Estel_Woody14619,  even now it's impossible to convince everyone that tampering wasn't possible, and trust for Nokia isn't greatest ;)21:31
ZogG_laptopthat's why i wanted devs, as they have most trust =\21:31
Estel_I think voting isn't any problem at all.21:31
Woody14619We have actions on this, and considerations for how to get buy in.21:31
Woody14619We'll re-address the latter next week.21:32
Estel_next point?21:32
Woody14619Next topic: Infrastructure and OBS progress.21:32
Estel_well, doesn't it require X-Fade input?21:32
Woody14619I will to some degree.21:32
ZogG_laptopI think OBS is nice and can be used at start but if we looking in long term it should be improved21:32
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  with all due respect, what You don't like in OBS from technical point of view?21:33
ZogG_laptopa lot of people find it painful21:33
Woody14619From what I've heard OBS hasn't moved much since I left for vacation a couple weeks ago.21:33
ivgalvezabout infrastructure, let's see what subsystems X-Fade  can transfer and then start creation of working groups as in COBS21:33
Estel_i.e "reportedly" it'21:33
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i used it, it's not that user friendly21:33
Estel_it"s painful, reportedly?21:33
Estel_well, most devs are quite optimistic about it21:33
Estel_We don't plan mkigrating from OBS to something next21:33
rzrat least some pple are using it21:34
Estel_migrating* damn, sorry for typos.21:34
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you can compare apps4meego with garage btw21:34
Woody14619Zogg: many people say that about SB and autobuilder as well...21:34
ivgalvezcan we maintain autobuilder at the same time?21:34
Estel_ivgalvez,  no, and we don't want to afaik? obs replces autobuilder funcionality21:34
ivgalvezas a fllback mechanism and for old-school people ;)21:34
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: that's why i think maybe we can search for devs to improve it?21:34
Woody14619I would love that, but right now those devices are only accessable by a few people.21:35
Estel_ivgalvez,  BTW, I have forwarded taixo problems with getting upload privilleges to coluncil mail21:35
Estel_ufortunately, no one replied :(21:35
ivgalvezwell COBS has already a working group and it's shared with Mer (which is great as they now have commercial support)21:35
Woody14619Thus Ivan's e-mail about opening admin privs for some services, either to Council or committies made to help support them.21:35
Estel_who was talking with X-Fade about uploading permissions for garage accounts, last time?21:35
ivgalvezme, but I'm afraid nothing has change21:36
Woody14619I spoke with X-Fade about it (and replied with his reply).21:36
ZogG_laptopAfaik they have some input from some Uni on working with it as i got it right, SD69 you was at mer-meeting21:36
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  we will saee how OBS works in practice, and then, if some - really supported - improvements will be required, why not.21:36
Estel_Woody14619,  sure, X-Fade replied, that there are no request pending21:36
Estel_but, taixo tried 3 times21:36
Woody14619It would appread that taixo has not re-applied and that the original request was lost as part of the maintainer going away.21:36
Estel_and still don't have permissions21:36
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you can try it already with build.meego.com21:36
ivgalvezif he can transfer this administrtion to community we could find someone willing to fix it21:37
Woody14619I applied for permissions on one of my garages the day after that and got an approval within 224 hours.21:37
Woody1461924 hours that is.21:37
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i think COBS can be used as base, but it needs rewrite21:37
Estel_well, I don't have heart to ask taixo about applying 4th time, but it seems that it will be necessary21:37
ivgalvezto took 3 days21:37
ivgalvezto me21:37
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  first things first. we don't have it running yet21:37
Woody14619Zog: That is in fact what's happening already with the Maemo OBS project.21:37
Estel_so lets postpone it for more realistic timeframe21:37
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: than it should be more public21:38
Estel_sure, but it sounds more like topic for next month - or even later - than for today's meeting21:38
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  everything is public21:38
Estel_COBS team have weekly meeting at this channel21:38
Woody14619Zogg: are you hosting hardware to do this on?  If so, make it public.  Currently the hardware is at Nemien.  They control the admin strings.21:38
Estel_at 15 UTC IIRC21:38
Woody14619Understand, this is not US not giving out rights.  We have no more access than you.21:39
Estel_so, anything we can discuss before X-Fade arrival aboutCOBS, or we can use this time productivily for next point?21:39
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: that's make it problematic21:39
Estel_ivgalvez will be out soon, so...21:39
Woody14619Agreed, but what do you propose we do about that?21:39
ZogG_laptopi have small suggestions about meetings here btw21:39
ivgalvezpropose21:40
Estel_ivgalvez,  how much time do You have left? Same for Rob?21:40
ivgalveznot many21:40
ZogG_laptopthe bot that is used at mer-meetings21:40
Estel_NielDK is MIA from beginnining, right?21:40
ivgalvezNielDK will come later21:40
ZogG_laptopi like the idea of meeting related commands21:40
Woody14619What benefit does that add though?21:41
Woody14619We have channel logging, and use hash marks for easy reference into it, in case other meetings happen.21:41
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: Raw log is ok, but i think it would be nice to make it formated and auto posted on like wiki sources/maillist21:41
Estel_we also have auto logs available for everyone.21:41
Estel_it's not raw log21:41
rzrcan i ask a Q about obs ,  so far only harmattan/mer builders are in production right , fremantle is for later or not ?21:41
Estel_see wiki -> IRC21:41
Estel_there You have linkable etc l,ogs for maemo-meeting too21:42
Woody14619I'm not opposed to that, but frankly, we already post minutes to blog, tmo and list.21:42
Estel_rzr,  no, fremantle is worked right on too21:42
Estel_by X-Fade, timoph, and others21:42
rzrbut not public to all ?21:42
ZogG_laptopEstel_: all logs i read is by using links in meeting sums up21:42
ivgalvezfeel free to join ;)21:42
Estel_rzr, everyone can join21:42
Estel_just write on mailing list or meet them at their meeting21:42
*** nieldk has joined #maemo-meeting21:43
Estel_hi nieldk21:43
rzrok thx21:43
Estel_Nice that You've managed to join us :)21:43
nieldkhi there sorry for being so late21:43
Estel_rzr, their meetings are @ 15 UTC monday21:43
ivgalvezUnfortunately I have to leave :(      ...   right when nieldk joins21:43
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: it's not about changing something, its just about adding better format. with links and highlights and so on21:43
Estel_alternatively, they follow community mailing list21:43
Woody14619zogg: If you look at the posts, there's usually a link to the raw logs for channel as well.21:43
ivgalvezPlease insist with X-Fade about transfering administration rights of Garage, repositories, etc, I'm sure that pali, freemangordon, etc will be more than happy to be able to start fixing problems21:43
Woody14619Thanks ivgalvez. :)21:44
ivgalvezthanks to all, see ya!21:44
Estel_sure. ivgalvez, Woody14619, SD69, can we jump; to next point before ivgalvez will need to say bb?21:44
Woody14619So.  Is there another topic to be addressed?21:44
Estel_well, I knew it will end like that.21:44
Woody14619What point is that estel?21:44
Estel_sure, it is.21:44
Estel_<Estel_> Woody14619,  could You, kindly, see: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84647&page=1121:44
ZogG_laptoplol21:44
ivgalvezoh no, pretty please...21:45
Woody14619I saw it.  And as I said I will reply in time.21:45
Estel_I really hoped for have whole Council input on this, but...21:45
ivgalvezwell I'm leaving21:45
Estel_ivgalvez,  sure...21:45
ZogG_laptopgood day/night21:45
nieldksee you iv21:45
ivgalvezcheers21:45
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC21:45
Estel_Well, things like that - as interpreted by mistgerc (which I got aware of onloy by quotyes in Texrat's posts, as I'm ignoring mkisterc as major crap-maker)21:45
Estel_create really bad atmosphere.21:45
SD69bye iv21:45
Woody14619I will not contaminate this meeting with such things.21:45
Estel_especially, when not commented. Frankly, I don't see why You can't comment on it swiftly, Woody14619.21:46
Estel_but it smells fishy :(21:46
Estel_Woody14619,  afaik meetings are our way to communicate with Community, and between us too, right?21:46
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you just make it personal here, it's not ethic. that's simple21:46
Estel_it's Your right if You cease to comment, but You're aware of light it puts You in?21:46
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  with all due resp;ect, we will decide topics we talk here, ok? :)21:47
Estel_Woody14619,= is a chair, and as per Councilors decisions, chair is also representative figure.21:47
Woody14619Estel_  Please, stop pushing this.  We're trying to get things done here... not devolve into mud slinging.21:47
Woody14619YEs,... Which is why I'm telling you to DROP THIS.21:47
Estel_SD69,  nieldk, saw link I've mentioned? any input?21:47
Estel_Woody14619,  You started to make it public, so please, be a man of honor.21:48
nieldkyes, saw it21:48
Woody14619This has no place in this meeting.21:48
ZogG_laptopDwight21:48
Woody14619Is there another topic to be addressed?21:48
Estel_Woody14619,  if You said a, please say b.21:48
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: may we talk a little bit more about OBS?21:48
SD69I saw it and i'm fine with not discussing it21:48
nieldkand I agree with Woody, this have no place in this meeting21:48
Estel_we're waitingt for X-Fade, afaik.21:48
Woody14619Done.21:48
Estel_OK.21:48
Woody14619What more would you like to talk about on OBS Zogg?21:48
Estel_if that's majority decision, I'm fine with it.21:49
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i see that a lot of people waiting for resulsts and work of OBS21:49
ZogG_laptopbut do devs have other ideas/ options/ and so on?21:49
Woody14619Agreed.  But many devs, while the work with OBS, do not have the skills to set one up.  Just like a jet pilot may not know how to fix a plane, or a jet mechanic may not know how to fly one.21:50
ZogG_laptopi think alternitives are good way to have plan b21:50
Woody14619There are a handfull working on this, and we do plan to ask X-Fade to open that a bit more, so others can finish the work being done.21:51
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i'll try to talk to X-fade to have maybe demo or beta testing21:51
ZogG_laptopi still find COBS pain in the ...21:51
Woody14619The problem is, X-Fade is quite busy with Nokia imploding, and the other two or three involved (Stskeeps, javispedro, and merlin1991) are either quitebusy or traveling right now.21:52
Woody14619Yes, but given the option of COBS or nothing?  Which is harder?21:52
Stskeepsif there's questions on OBS, community is welcome to ask in #mer21:52
ZogG_laptopit might be good and easy for people using SB but not for qtcreator. it's hard to discuss the new one as noone of us get access but i think it would be simuliar21:52
Woody14619Thank you stskeeps.  I think the question is less on OBS and more on the specific Maemo varient thereof though.21:53
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: do you use the same one harmattan using?21:53
Stskeepsi know what X-Fade has been working on, so21:53
ZogG_laptopafaik it's easier for mer because of being rpm based as well21:54
Woody14619My understanding was that the current OBS has package tools that make rpm/deb differences minimal to non-existant.  (Minus some dependancy/naming issues?)21:54
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: i'm the one not using SB but QtcReator and it took me a lot of time to get working build of my app, as well as painful.21:55
Stskeepsit doesn't make it a big issue from build farm pov21:55
Stskeepsbut let's discuss that after meeting21:55
ZogG_laptopok21:55
Woody14619I think we're pretty much done with the meeting.  (And I would love to hear the details of this. :)21:55
Woody14619Any other topics?21:56
Woody14619If not, I'll close the meeting and we can get on with more OBS chatter. :)21:56
rzrso obs is top priority for migration ?21:56
nieldk no other topics21:57
Woody14619I think it is, since migration (and more importantly maintainance) of autobuilder is shakey at best.21:57
Woody14619k. :)  On to other things...21:58
SD69I don't think it is top priority21:58
Woody14619I think it's in the ranking.  (Clearly formation of an entity, repo/tmo hosting, etc are higher)21:58
nieldkright, without21:59
nieldk... those, it wouldnmatter21:59
Woody14619From the build/dev side though, I think it's important...21:59
ZogG_laptopnieldk: it would matter after the foundation will be alive21:59
ZogG_laptopi would agree that first priority is structure22:00
rzrmakes sense22:00
Woody14619Understand, I take a bit of a dev-centric view on things.22:00
nieldkZogG_laptop, yes, not saying it has no priority, but we need a house for our furniture ;)22:01
Woody14619Without developers, the community won't survive long.  So that tends to draw my focus.22:01
Woody14619Happily I have others on the Council (like SD69) that redirect that to other, sometimes more important, topics too. :)22:01
Woody14619great analogy neildk. :)22:02
Woody14619and honestly, I'd say repos even have priority over build.  But migrating and maintaining those (with the exception of the Nokia-closed repo) is pretty trivial.22:02
Woody14619ok.  So... seeing no more topics...22:03
nieldkWoody14619, agree22:03
Woody14619#end Maemo Council meeting22:03
SD69bye everyone22:03
rzrso i can paste that one now http://nokiainnovation.com/2012/07/news-coming-from-jolla-on-monday/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter22:03
nieldkbye SD6922:03
rzrbye22:04
Woody14619That's not to say eveyone should vanish, but. :)22:04
nieldkstill here22:04
ZogG_laptopstill here, just talking to roomate about something important22:04
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: i would like to ping you later about OBS22:04
Woody14619So, stskeeps, I think one vital question we have is what state is the current Maemo OBS project in.22:05
StskeepsOK, are we speaking fremantle or harmattan, first off?22:05
ZogG_laptopboth22:05
Woody14619The other big question of X-Fade is:  What level of service (hardware & support) will we have.22:05
Stskeepsi can't speak on behalf of x-fade, i'll fill you in on details22:05
Woody14619I was thinking more fremantle, but both are important.22:06
Woody14619I understand you can't answer the latter question. :)22:06
Woody14619Just wanted to get those both out there though, since they're both things of key interest right now.22:06
Woody14619My understanding is that there already is an OBS for Harmattan.  Is that not correct?22:07
StskeepsOK, so, as you know, OBS can do debian based distributions too22:07
Stskeepsthis is practically a set of .deb files and a project configuration22:07
Stskeepsfor harmattan22:07
Stskeepsno modifications to OBS software itself needed22:08
rzrgood to know22:08
Stskeepsthere are problems with that current approach - everything is run with qemu user mode emulation22:08
Stskeepswhich is so slow it clogs up a obs22:08
rzrbut it was unstable at the begining ? do you know what changed ?22:08
Woody14619Issues also revovle around packaging Nokia SDK and access to it...22:09
Stskeepsyes, nokia didn't always give all out packages needed as scratchbox supported it22:09
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: i think it can be improved in a lot of ways for harmattan and it's still pain in the ass =(22:09
Stskeepssure22:09
Stskeepsso, that's where x-fade's current work before latest dead platform was going22:09
Stskeepshe was talking development code of mine, for enabling this thing with scratchbox2 and OBS22:10
ZogG_laptopi think the core should be the same22:10
Stskeepsso it could build with cross compilation22:10
Stskeepsfremantle should be possible to enable in similar manner as was done in my description above22:10
ZogG_laptopbut i think it should be wrapped with ruby or somethin service when some steps need can be done automaticly and more user friendly22:11
Stskeepsit was done to some extent in the past, but harmattan was more important from a business pov22:11
Woody14619My understanding is that he had the fremantle setup essentialy working, but it just needed some work in packaging stuff so it was a bit more automated (and would transfer nicely to other COBS cores)22:12
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: as example as it uses scratchbox it uses debian folder - right?22:13
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: but QtcReator uses different approach22:13
StskeepsWoody14619: yeah, that makes sense22:13
ZogG_laptopit might be QtcReator fail but it can't be fixed as it's not OSS22:13
Stskeepsqtcreator is oss22:13
Stskeeps:P22:13
ZogG_laptopso i'm looking for something that would be more flexibale and build differently and properly depending if it's qtcreator / python or any other options needed22:14
StskeepsWoody14619: so, that's where you are at now.. provided that you can get the .deb's that sits in maemo.org obs, you can set up your own obs with harmattan builds22:14
Woody14619That and some tweeks that have not yet be packaged. :)22:14
Woody14619But yes...22:15
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: QtCreator is opensource? oh, i didn't know that =)22:15
Woody14619Which leads to the second question of what hardware Nemien will continute to run on the reduced Nokia contract.22:15
StskeepsWoody14619: you can, FWIW, download all of harmattan debs through OBS api22:15
Stskeepsin case x-fade gets run over by a bus22:15
rzrI'm leaving guys , but in case you need some help to setup/migrate obs u can always ask me22:16
ZogG_laptopthey are avilable in testing repo afaik22:16
Stskeepsyeah, but like, all the debs22:16
Stskeeps:P22:16
Stskeepsi've seen one succesfully do it and start harmattan builds of his own22:17
rzrbye22:17
Woody14619Lol... Need to buy that man a bus shield. :)  And thanks for the compliment, but right now, I could not download anything through OBS api, since I'm really not up to speed on using any of it. :P22:17
*** rzr is now known as rZr22:17
ZogG_laptopyeah i know - i had few weeks exp with it trying to get my app being build22:17
nieldkZogG_laptop, QtCreator is opensource, but for some usage, licensed22:17
StskeepsWoody14619: just saying what you can do ..22:17
Woody14619I barely got SB setup enough to compile... yet alone undestanding OBS. :)22:17
Stskeepsbut anyway, the reason x-fade was working on sb2 and cross compile, was so it would be acceptable on a more 'shared' obs22:18
rZrwhile i am here22:18
Woody14619stskeeps: and I apprecate that. :)22:18
Stskeepsas otherwise the capacity needs of harmattan builds would be too big22:18
Stskeepsbut in terms of it being a factual blocker.. not terribly22:18
rZrit would be cool to support at least several platform mer/nemo included22:18
rZrthis can be done using a single source ...22:19
ZogG_laptoprZr: it is supported now afaik22:19
rZrjust a spec that uses a deb patch22:19
Stskeepsif i may be truly honest, it'd be a lot easier if you could restrict yourself to qt apps22:19
Stskeepsthen that's much easier to handle and cross compile22:19
rZrand it will build rpm/debs22:19
Stskeepsbut that's just me22:19
rZrZogG_laptop, but it would be good to publish the same apps in debs and rpm format22:20
Woody14619So, I guess the question then is really more on the later part:  What resources we will have.22:20
rZrthis will enhance collaboration ...22:20
Stskeeps150 eur/month can get you very far22:20
Stskeepsfor having your own obs, too22:21
ZogG_laptoprZr: exact my point22:21
rZri wrote a draft about that22:21
ZogG_laptopCOBS now works as simple robot that makes the same thing for everything22:21
ZogG_laptopi think it should be more flexible22:21
rZrhttp://rzr.online.fr/q/pkg22:22
ZogG_laptopas it was mde for opensuse afaik22:22
Woody14619which is why we're trying to get the legal entity setup.  servers req money, money req bank acct, bank acct req entity. :)22:22
Stskeeps:nod:22:22
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: we might be less technical, but the point to make it usable by not only few devs but as much people as we can, right?22:22
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: maybe someone on TMO has server just for testings?22:23
StskeepsZogG_laptop: i'm thinking in terms of keeping a developer community going if maemo.org infra goes tits up and is unmaintainable22:23
Stskeepsget someone with actual linux knowledge and a obs is easy to set up22:23
Woody14619And that's the issue.  Again, pilot vs mechanic.22:23
nieldkStskeeps, that part is easy dealtbwith22:24
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: i might be capable to set up it at home, but mostly i would not be one capable to improve/change it =\22:24
Woody14619We have lots of willing pilots, but the mechanics have all run out to put out the fire in another hanger, leaving our plane in pieces. ;)22:24
StskeepsWoody14619: or out on a jollyboat..22:24
Woody14619lol :)22:25
ZogG_laptopnice one22:25
nieldkWoody14619, Stskeeps :)22:25
Stskeepsanyway, get me somebody with a bit of shell knowledge and 'curl' and i'll teach him to dump harmattan debs22:25
Woody14619Not that it's their fault at all.  The didn't set the other plane on fire. :)  But it doesn't mean our's is flyable. ;)22:26
Woody14619hmm...22:26
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: Stskeeps is it needed? we want to get a copy?22:26
nieldkStskeeps, ill ask around, i have the guy hehe22:26
Stskeepsyes, you do22:26
Woody14619I may take you up on that one in the near future stskeeps.22:26
StskeepsWoody14619: feel free to ping me in #mer22:26
Stskeepsthough not tomorrow, is my birthday22:26
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: what size is it?22:26
Woody14619I will be out for the weekend, so would be next week at earlies.22:26
StskeepsZogG_laptop: 600mish?22:26
StskeepsWoody14619: works for me - i'm in finland next week, so next weekend if possible22:27
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: is it all in haramttan repo the one on apps4meego?22:27
Woody14619jelious. :(22:27
StskeepsZogG_laptop: not all of it, but close enough22:27
StskeepsWoody14619: i'm worried about mosqitoes..22:27
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: can you tell me wich repos? i might try tomorrow to do it myself22:27
nieldkno mosquitoes in funkand22:27
nieldkfinand22:27
nieldkfinland aaargh22:28
Woody14619stskeeps:  take a yeast pill.  Mosquitos won't come within a meter of you.22:28
Woody14619(You'll smell like bread... but otherwise... not a bad thing.)22:28
ZogG_laptopnieldk: best typo ever, would be nicer as funkland22:28
nieldkZogG_laptop, yeah22:29
Woody14619Also works for flees and ticks. :)22:29
ZogG_laptopWoody14619: last time i was in army trainings i was awake almost all week, as doesn't matter what i used against they drank all my blood )22:29
StskeepsZogG_laptop: git clone http://review.merproject.org/p/mer/release-tools.git as a start22:30
Estel_well, as X-Fade haven't arrived yet, I'm dropping it here - just and *only* because it affects Council workplan for next week:22:31
Estel_http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1237140#post123714022:31
Estel_hi there Stskeeps, glad to hear about Mer's new machines :)22:32
Stskeepsi don't want to derail anything here, but how do you feel about maemo.org in relation to Jolla?22:32
rZrStskeeps, ZogG_laptop do u plan to be there at next obs meeting ?22:32
Stskeepsjust to collect some intelligence22:32
Estel_Stskeeps,  personally, I feel very o9ptimistic about it22:32
Estel_if they deliver something for our target group (geeks ;) ) and would see it as approriate, I'm all for integration.22:33
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: it's good in a way of "finding new home", but on other hand it would be bad on support for maemo and harmattan devices =\22:33
Estel_mind You, that it's personal opinion, especially now.22:33
Stskeepsright, that's one side, but community wise?22:33
Estel_Stskeeps,  I mean Community22:33
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: i would love it22:34
Estel_I don't mind close, close collaboration with any company, if they are up to FOSS standards. I mean collaboration standards - I'm aware and sure, that they won't manage to be 100% FOSS compatible re their product.22:34
Estel_Stskeeps,  for now, they seem like living essence of what we liked on Nokia, during Nokia's best time. If they live up to that "promise", every FOSS copmmunity will want to go to bed with them :)22:35
Estel_With Maemo being topmost. It's obviuous to everyone, I think, that trilling Community can't be focused only around legacy support.22:36
ZogG_laptopEstel_: it's not about legacy support22:36
Estel_It would be nice and natural way to swap Community to be mostly Mer oriented, too.22:37
Stskeepsjust listening, thanks for stating22:37
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Estel_ZogG_laptop,  truth is simple - You won't build anything new around Maemo. period. I mean any new device.22:37
ZogG_laptopmaemo is not theirs and i think their interest to move on and to get best devs from maemo. think of it as CSSU devs would leave maemo as harmattan was out22:37
Estel_Mer is only way for people, that doesn't see Android way as perfect example of FOSS ;)22:38
Estel_ZogG_laptop,  antagonising again? :/22:38
ZogG_laptopEstel_: right, but i think we can still make enuf juice from maemo and harmattan.22:38
Estel_Stskeeps,  I would jump into Mer right now (without leaving Maemo Community at all), if not the fact that my skills are miserably unusable for Mer.22:38
Estel_i.e. my skills re core system engineering are non-existent22:39
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Estel_and I would do the same ever before Jolla, to make it clear.22:39
Woody14619I think Jolla could turn into something nice.  And I think there could be a potential partner there, if not a home for some of the services the community needs.  I would prefer to know more about them though.22:39
Stskeeps:nod: there should be more info, eventually, about higher levels22:39
Woody14619Jumping out of fire into the frying pan sounds nice when you're on fire...22:39
Stskeepspersonally i think maemo.org should find it's own life and not be tied to a certain vendor, but that's me22:39
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: btw, i have few small questions about mer in general, would it be proper to ask here or go to #mer?22:39
StskeepsZogG_laptop: #mer22:39
Estel_it just sounds like most sane and natural way - if we try to make debian or any desktop distro mobile-compatible, we end up re-doing work that Mer is doing22:39
Estel_i.e. it's not possible to have efficient - also re power consumption - system from desktop, without re-writing or changing many parts22:40
Estel_just my 2 cents.22:40
StskeepsZogG_laptop: and any questions always welcome22:41
Estel_Eh, dreams about having device so usable as N900 is, with up-to-date hardware... Maybe jolla won't fail to provide it, and Community won't need to design it on our own, at some point :P22:41
Estel_ouh, I had nice connection lag with mixed timestamps of messages :P22:42
nieldkto further safekeep the community, I think it makes sense to collaborate, if possible with Jolla ATM22:43
nieldkmy best guess is, quite a few devs probably will jump on that wagon anyway22:45
nieldkso, a joint venture if some sort, will benefit all, in my opinion22:45
Estel_just a curious question - is it still official meeting, or I've just missed meeting-end?22:46
Estel_it's quite unusual to see so silent meeting during those turbulent times.22:46
nieldkEstel_, meeting has ended22:46
Estel_blame my connection drop :)22:47
nieldk:)22:47
Stskeepsnieldk: i can only say that community plays a big role, but my own personal opinion is that a community for jolla would have to be built from scratch as such22:48
Stskeepsbut at the same time, continuing on people's skills22:49
nieldkStskeeps, yeah, we will see more I guess, once devices and dev platforms rises for Jolla22:51
Stskeepsyeah22:52
Stskeepsit'll be hard to build community but i think you'll be positively surprised22:52
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: btw are there any dev kits or similuar planned before end-user device is out?22:54
StskeepsZogG_laptop: i can't comment on that, sorry22:54
Woody14619Wait. :)  I think I missed something.  Stskeeps, you're involved in the project?  Sorry, I was on vacation the week all that came into being and I'm still catching up.22:55
StskeepsWoody14619: right, though my focus is on core and community22:55
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: ok, and if there would be sdk platform/ parts of it out, so we can test/start working with it before device out? for example on Pi or n950 or virtual machine or something (if you can comment on that?)22:55
StskeepsZogG_laptop: i have to say stay tuned, but we're not stupid :P22:56
Woody14619Honestly, that's probably the most positive thing I've heard about Jolla yet then. :)22:56
Stskeepsmany of us who has been working on nemo are in jolla, too22:56
Estel_I'm wondering about Jolla involvement on sending patches to Nemo... Hm :)22:57
StskeepsEstel_: go check changelogs, there's already @jollamobile.com contributions22:57
Stskeepsnemo doesn't have anything to do with jolla ui look or feel though, but we're not big on NIH22:58
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: you didn't get me, i'm stupid to understand =) if it's good to have it out before or after. i think before is good idea as for devs, but it might be bad idea as busness thing22:58
StskeepsZogG_laptop: yeah, just saying that a sdk or similar is obligatory for app developers22:59
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: i just realised that i was around maemo for a llong time and contributed to it, but my skills are poor and i want something i can get more and more exp to contribute. e.g. mohammadag that not just contribueted a lot but learned a lot to contribute more.23:00
Stskeeps:nod:23:00
Stskeepsi started out as a silly person complaining about maemo stack future on a mailing list, and the scary thing happened that professionals took me seriously23:01
Stskeepseverybody starts somewhere23:01
ZogG_laptopi'm tierd of me being only reporting and suggesting and want to improve and to be involved in development of things i like23:01
Estel_Stskeeps,  I know about their contributions, that why I wonder what it means for Nemo as FOSS UI :)23:03
StskeepsEstel_: you and me both..23:03
Stskeepsnemo isn't going away though23:03
Estel_Maybe it will help in making Nemo usable, finally, without any disrespect for people working hard on it before23:03
Estel_Yea, I rather though about boost23:04
Estel_I'm sure many people would like to use open UI on jolla device, instead of bundled, most-likely closed one23:04
Estel_but those are pure speculations23:04
Estel_at this time23:04
Stskeeps:nod:23:04
Stskeepsyou know what i like about this news though? i'm seeing the community actually innovate23:07
ZogG_laptopdamn i have 666 contacts imported in contact list msg and it's friday 13th =)23:08
StskeepsZogG_laptop: was nice knowing you23:08
Stskeeps:P23:08
ZogG_laptoplol23:08
ZogG_laptopdamn23:08
ZogG_laptopwanted to make screenshot23:08
ZogG_laptopbut as i sent contacts to background it's gone =(23:09
* Estel_ yaws23:10
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