IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-07-06

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nieldkwe need someone to update the topic - one showibg now is from april :)21:04
SD69I just sent email with draft bylaws about an hour ago21:04
ivgalvezyep, I'm cewing it21:05
nieldkyes here also21:05
nieldklooks good to me, with few modifications this would be what is in bylaws in EU also. (at least for Denmark)21:07
ivgalvezEstel_: ping21:07
ivgalvezLooks mostly good to me21:08
ivgalvezwe could discuss it further by email and then present it via mailing list for other members revision21:08
ivgalvezwe should start21:10
nieldkusually agreement would be on constituting meeting21:10
nieldkbut in this case I think submitting it for review first is appropriate21:11
nieldkyes, so, we have SD69, ivgalvez and nieldk21:12
ivgalvezOK ,let's start. This meeting agenda is:21:13
ivgalvez1 - new chair21:13
ivgalvez2 - establishing legal entity US/EU21:13
ivgalvez3 -  community fundings21:13
ivgalvez4 - X-Fade leaving Maemo related activities21:13
ivgalvez5 - anything else21:14
ivgalvezlet's solve point 121:14
ivgalvezI propose Woody as new Chairmain. He's already doing part of the job with meeting minutes and he didn't participate in CA21:15
SD69fine with me21:16
nieldkbasically, he has been actibg like chair in my opinion, sp iam for21:16
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Estel_hi9 there21:16
Estel_sorry for being late a little21:17
nieldkhi there Estel :)21:17
ivgalvezSo then, we agree, Woody is new Chairmain21:17
Estel_well, I though that ivgalvez better suits Your idea oft chairman - i.e. diplomat ;)21:17
Estel_but if You preffer woody, why not21:17
Estel_he was my 2nd porefference21:18
ivgalvezI was also submitter to CA21:18
ivgalvezso I prefer to step back21:18
Estel_well, who will prepare minutes from today's meeting? Woody is on vacations21:18
Estel_ivgalvez, not related, but of course, its Your choice :)21:18
ivgalvezthanks Estel_21:18
ivgalvezI can do the minutes21:19
Estel_all right21:19
ivgalvezlet's move to point 221:19
Estel_so You're chairing todays meeting to, ok?:)21:20
Estel_sure. Sd69, are You sure, that hildon - despite being open source - isn't trademarked too?21:20
SD69Hildon is not trademarked, at least in the US21:21
ivgalvezSD69, apart from document, any comments?21:21
nieldksince hildon is a known last name, my guess is no, unless by a certain Parish21:21
SD69On legal entity, the first issue is Maemo trademark21:23
SD69as it would be quite confusing to have Maemo Foundation and not be able to refer to Maemo freely21:23
Estel_I'm all for using Hildon from very beginning21:23
ivgalvezI think Hildon is fine, and maybe it would be better to go that way instead of trying to fight for Maemo's mname21:23
SD69it might take Nokia awhile to decide and I think we should not wait21:24
SD69We can be Hildon Foundation from the beginning and still use maemo later if it becomes available21:24
SD69don't want a poacher to register the domain name though21:24
ivgalvezSo let's keep Hildon Foundation, then21:24
ivgalvezwhat about registering?21:25
nieldkworks for me21:25
Estel_also, shouldn't "mission statement" be more hildojn-oriented, than maemo-oriented?21:25
Estel_after all, iof, for example, running hildon over mer would become available - hyphoteticaly - we don't need much tied in mission to Maemo.21:25
Estel_i.e. is there any sense in stating in our mission statement, that maemo was created by Nokia etc?21:26
ivgalvezI don't think we need to mention Mer as the way to go, as it's more a technical decission21:26
Estel_neither mer or Maemo, IMO21:27
ivgalvezkeeping maintenance of Maemo and Hildon based software21:27
Estel_open source parts of maemo focus around hildon21:27
ivgalvezis the mission21:27
Estel_yea, right21:27
Estel_repos, etc21:27
ivgalvezthere is a lot more than Hildon21:27
ivgalvezI'm confortable with points 1,2, 3, 6 and 8. I think we might need to discuss a bit more about rest of the points21:27
Estel_on second thouigh, I totally agree. sorry, i'm reading through Rob's draft on the go.21:28
ivgalvezyes, we should also include maintenance of HArmattan, not only Maemo21:28
Estel_wait, about point 2 still21:28
Estel_any need to mentiuon CSSU there?21:28
Estel_after all, going this way, kernel-power should be mentioned too ;)21:28
Estel_I though that mission statement must be more "general"21:28
ivgalvezWe could avoid CSSU21:29
Estel_point 3 looks clean21:29
ivgalvezit's better to keep generality around software as it's always changing, but mention devices we want to provide further maintenance21:29
Estel_devices may change too, with time ;)21:30
Estel_maemo powered devices should be enough21:30
Estel_as for point 4, board of directors? I think we should keep Council name, for historical purposes, and to avoid confusion. Everyone is going to call them Counncil, anyway (further ones)21:30
ivgalvezOK, but we need to mention both Maemo and Harmattan21:31
ivgalvezI'm also more confortable with Concil instead of Board of Directors21:32
Estel_some would say that harmattan is maemo 621:32
SD69Board is preferred because the responsibility will be quite different than current council21:32
Estel_so we can stay with "maemo powered devices" to avoid going into details in mission statement21:32
Estel_SD69, why not Steering Group, then?21:33
Estel_board of directos sounds quite inapproriate, IMO21:33
nieldkagree with SD69 -and how legal entities are usually formed21:33
Estel_but of course, it's detail.21:33
SD69because Board is responsible for audits, government filings, etc.21:33
Estel_well, in Open source communities, it's rather about steering Groups than directors, AFAIK21:33
ivgalvezthat sounds reasonable21:33
Estel_whatever, it's just a name21:33
ivgalvezhow is KDE's name as an example?21:33
Estel_no idea :)21:34
ivgalvezboard of directors21:34
Estel_well, Debian seems to think othertwise, and we're more related to debian than kde, but, as said, whatever21:34
Estel_it's minor detail21:34
Estel_I'm ok with any name21:34
Estel_point 4 and 5 - why meetings minimum once for 3 months, and 4 weeks period for organising meetings? Is it about real life ones, or what?21:35
SD69most open source communities, like most non-profits, have a board21:35
nieldkboard of directors is more appropriate, and used, for legal entities, soi vote for the original21:35
Estel_ok, I'm ok with it, as said :)21:35
Estel_nieldk, hold on your horses, we're discutting, not voting :)21:36
Estel_so, any thoughts about IV and V points, and meeting things?21:36
SD69I have no strong opinion on meeting period- just picked three months without much thought21:36
nieldkquartely meetings seems quite common21:37
Estel_nieldk, it's not abbout what is common, but what we need to make Community governed in sensible way21:37
Estel_3 months in vibrant communities is a decade.21:38
Estel_for example, it's half of period for current Councils21:38
Estel_board of dir4ectors will have even more work and responsibilities than current Councilors21:38
Estel_do You imagine, that we meet twice during our cadence? (!)21:38
ivgalvezbut in person meetings will be difficult to attend to21:38
Estel_I think no need to have most meetings in real life21:38
Estel_unnecessary costs21:38
ivgalvezI understand you are talking about personal meetings, aren't you SD69?21:39
SD69the bylaws say "at least as often" so it doesn't preclude a shorter time period21:39
Estel_SD69, yea, but if You're not talking about real life ones, I think that once per month should be absolute minimum21:39
Estel_but ivgalvez question is valid - are they real one, or all meetings?21:39
nieldkusually, there will be smaller working groups, that would meet more often on specific issues21:40
SD69we not deciding how often to have meetings, but what is the maximum time period21:40
Estel_nieldk, good point, but creating such vibrant groups require time21:40
ivgalvezOK, maximum period for board, meetings, which can be shorter and independant of any working groups meetings21:41
nieldklike Sd says, this is the max time, board can meet daily if needed21:41
nieldkivgalvez, yes21:41
ivgalvezOK, if no more comments about document, we can discuss it further by email, also to get Woody's feedback21:43
ivgalvezand then share it via mailing list21:43
ivgalveznext point: community funding21:44
nieldkon EU, there is a very short mentioning of legal entities, but it is solely related to trading entities, not Unions, like this. So regulations are the same. Forming a union (not tax reponsible trading firm)21:45
SD69I think we need trustworthy member to hold donations21:47
SD69and to collect pledges21:47
Estel_Sd69, but the question about those meetings being real-life ones, or not, remained unanswered21:48
ivgalvezI propose kojacker, he's already done it for Coding Competitions21:48
Estel_well, we would need to ask him first, if he likes doing it :) Also, it seems, that someone else was  receiving donations for CC.21:48
ivgalvezSorry, it was zehjotkah, not kojacker21:49
SD69the by-laws don't require any specific type of meeting21:49
Estel_Sd69, all right21:49
ivgalvezshall we start funding activities even before contituting legal entity?21:49
Estel_ivgalvez, yea, but zehjotkah mentioned real life activites, that restrain him for attending CC fully.21:50
nieldkfor holding fundings, tge foundation should create an account, and the board would be responsible21:50
Estel_well, lets leave treasurer for first board of directors?21:50
ivgalvezwe can approach him in any case asking for help, the more people we got involved the better21:50
Estel_ivgalvez, if I understand correctly what SD69 mean, creating legal entity in US should be extra quick21:50
nieldkEstel_, agree21:51
SD69a significant part of the bylaws is that the first board is elected by community - that will take time, but I am not sure what else will be acceptable21:51
Estel_SD69, any time period required for it, if we agree on bylaws?21:51
Estel_well, as we're already creating those rules, I think that making current Councilors first board of directors, and holding election in sheduled time (six months since last election, as in times of Council) would be OK21:52
SD69about 3 weeks to be able to open bank account21:52
Estel_but, honestly, it don't think it matters so much21:52
Estel_more important is to have fundings and hosting for migrating services before cut-off21:52
Estel_SD69, sounds neat21:52
Estel_ah, I almost forgot that one. Why elections once for year?21:53
Estel_current period of 6 months is too short?21:53
nieldka year is a legal entity reporting period, for reporting finances etc I believe21:53
ivgalvezOK, do we agree then to start a funding activity, no matter what time it takes to create the first Board and the legal entity?21:54
Estel_well, by estabilishing foundation, we're, in practice, doing job of boards of directors - I don't think that voting in period of 6 months after our Council nominations would be something bad21:54
SD69I think 6 months is too short for more responsibilities of Board, plus vote mechanism is unknown21:54
Estel_SD69, but we can create legal entity before cutting funds from Nokia21:54
nieldkSD69, agree21:54
Estel_so for first election of board members, we could use existing voting infrastructure21:54
Estel_we would be the board that transfer responsibilities to legal entity21:55
Estel_thenm, Community elect new (or not, depending on who will be candidate and who iwll get elected) board21:55
Estel_it sounds quite wrong to do voting as a part of creating legal entity21:55
Estel_before new Council would jump into loop, we would lose precious time21:55
ivgalvezthat sounds reasonable, then we will have a year to prepare an alternative voting method21:55
Estel_I'm not sure if Community would be OK with cancelling voting after 6 months from our election.21:56
Estel_I think, that first election should be kept in due time, then, any next one after every year21:56
Estel_otherwise, some trolls may see it as extending our cadence21:56
nieldkEstel_, agree21:57
Estel_so, ion my opinion, we should transfer into board of directors, but keep voting in October or December21:57
Estel_to this time, we should have most things transferred21:57
nieldkagree, again21:57
Estel_and our cadence would remain 6 months (until someone get re-elected)21:57
Estel_iv, rob?21:58
ivgalvezI'm OK with that21:58
Estel_so, point 3, funding?21:58
Estel_I think that estabilishing legal entity first is a must, with bank account mentioned by Rob21:58
Estel_then, we can start fundrising immediately21:59
ivgalvezyep, as said, I would approach zehjotkah to help with this21:59
Estel_Rob, as a lawyer, probably know for sure :)21:59
ivgalvezhe's trustworthy member21:59
ivgalvezto act as first treasurer21:59
Estel_we can, why not, he is trusted Community Member. But, afaik, it was simple paypal account. No rocket science involved22:00
ivgalvezfor the time being22:00
Estel_they were also *not* a legal entity22:00
ivgalvezyes, but we need people to donate without any fears22:00
Estel_problem - paypal require same owner of bank account and paypal account to transfer money22:00
ivgalvezso to start with, sounds a good option22:00
Estel_so, if Rob creates bank account for foundation, he would need to create paypal account for donations gathering too22:00
Estel_= practially, rob would be trasurer anyway :P22:01
ivgalvezpretty much correct22:01
Estel_no idea how any board could nominate other treasurer22:01
Estel_Rob would need to pass access to account, or what?22:01
SD69typically, one of the board members would be treasurer22:01
* Estel_ nods22:02
SD69but it can be delegated22:02
Estel_SD69, any way how to create paypal account for foundation? to have matching account owner and paypal account owner?22:04
Estel_btw, it's really shame, that we don't have better donation method, than lame paypal22:04
Estel_(of course direct bank transfer works too)22:04
Estel_(but is expensive for small-to-moderate donations)22:04
ivgalvezwe should start fundings right now, I think the creatin of legal entity will still requiere a pair of weeks22:05
ivgalvezwe continue discussion for document on legal entity by email, to iton it and then present it to rest of community for feedback22:05
Estel_but is it legal to gather funds before estabilishing entity?22:05
ivgalvezthat will requiere two weeks munimum22:05
Estel_i.e. how tot ransfer gathered money to entity, legally?22:05
Estel_I have no clue about US law here.22:05
Estel_as for rest, I agree22:06
ivgalvezEstel_, that's why I'm talking to use some trsted member like zejothka22:06
ivgalvezto start gathering some funds22:06
ivgalvezand then transfer them to legal entity once settled22:06
ivgalvezany objection to that?22:08
nieldknot sure about this method if person recieving fundings live in US, but in most of EU he would have to pay taxes from donations, as a personal income22:08
ivgalvezit's working for coding competition, so..22:08
Estel_ivgalvez, because coding competition doesn't transfer them later to entity22:09
nieldkwould work, just stating the law, in most of EU it would be a felony not to report the donations to IRS22:09
Estel_tax office may bite his back22:09
Estel_especially, that we cannot estimate total ammount of donations22:10
nieldkEstel_, my words ;)22:10
Estel_with all due respect, CC donations are, probably, a fraction of hildonfoundation donations22:10
Estel_i.e. CC donations are done 1005 unoficially22:11
Estel_we cannot copy and paste their approach22:11
Estel_rob, any comments on this?22:11
Estel_re legal things?22:11
ivgalvezOK, then let's keep funding discussion whlie ironing document for legal entity22:11
ivgalvezwe will comment it again next week22:12
Estel_sure, unless US law allow to gather funds at the same time, when registering legal entity goes on.22:12
Estel_if yes, there is no problem to start gathering funds earlier22:12
SD69an entity cannot have a bank account before it even exists22:12
ivgalvezSD69, can you investigate that?22:12
Estel_Sd69, we can gather to paypal22:12
Estel_the question is if its legal22:13
Estel_before we have banlk account (and exist)22:13
Estel_(as entity)22:13
Estel_maybe up to some sum?22:13
SD69you can collect donations through paypal or to individual account and then transfer to entity when it exists22:13
Estel_in Poland, up to equivalent of ~1000 dollars can be donated to someone without taxes22:13
nieldksame in DK (probably in all EU)22:14
Estel_SD69, if You're absolutely sure about that, it's ok. As long as individual person won't need to pay any taxes22:14
ivgalvezOK, then we'll  start legal entity before any funding22:16
ivgalvezcan we close this point and move to next one?22:17
SD69sorry, I have to leave soon22:17
ivgalvezX-Fade availability. I'm really worried about maintanaibility of current infrastructure in the meantime for transition22:17
ivgalvezI suggest to approach him and ask him for administrative privileges of anything he's able to grant to us (garage, repos, IRC...)22:18
ivgalvezand then for working groups to start maintainig these resources22:18
ivgalvezand then form...22:19
SD69agreed, but we first have to determine what will be migrated and what administration rights there are associated with that22:19
ivgalvezeven if Garage is not migrated22:20
ivgalvezwe need to maintain it in the meantime22:20
Estel_sure, but BTW, You know that he is still contracted by Nemein, and Nemein have contract with Nokia to maintain Maemo to the end of year?22:21
ivgalvezfor example, if someone request maintenance of a package22:21
nieldkyes, also we would be better prepared for a Tsunami (worst case scenario)22:21
Estel_i.e. it's rather about personal contract of X-fade with Nokia about extra work22:21
Estel_hm, when I proposed taking "tools" some time ago, it was meet with accusations of being power-hungry... :)22:21
ivgalvezEstel_, you're right22:22
nieldkEstel_, right22:22
ivgalvezbut now we are in a tsumnami22:22
ivgalvezrereading X-Fade and qgil emails, it's really worring22:22
nieldkivgalvez, Estel_ true, its a living world, and situation changed22:22
Estel_ivgalvez, agree22:23
Estel_nieldk, so i'm a visionare now? :) ok, enough of joking22:23
nieldkEstel_, ;)22:23
Estel_ivgalvez, it's basically our more-than-6-months-warning22:23
Estel_we will surely got our 6 months before warning too22:23
Estel_but Qgil is quite clear - it's only a matter of time, and stopping funding Maemo is decision made22:23
Estel_it's rather about "when" not "if"22:24
Estel_even on TMO, voices like "why we need to go our own path" vanished22:24
ivgalvezok, then do we agree to?:  approach X-Fade and check what administrative rights can be moved to community, then start creating working groups22:24
Estel_3 weeks ago, Saturn wrote, that anyone who think Nokia won't be releasing new Maemo device in a year, is fool22:24
ivgalvezthat would help in migration too22:24
Estel_now, such voices are non-existent22:24
Estel_ivgalvez, sure22:24
SD69I don't think so - why move to community and then move again to Foundation?22:24
Estel_whwhen I was chair, such things were done by me., now, woody is chair, and he is on vacations, so I assume You will pick up this one, iv?22:25
Estel_Sd69, I can't parse what You mean.22:25
ivgalveznope, I mean if X-Fade gives us administrative rights for repositories (as an example)22:25
ivgalvezwe are not administrating it personally22:25
ivgalvezwe recruit peple from community to do that22:26
ivgalvezthese volunteers will be the ones that will work on future migration as well22:26
ivgalvezhe might not be able to grant some permissions (yet), but we should start collecting what's available and recruiting people to do the job22:27
nieldkdo you object SD69 ?22:28
SD69and what if Nokia refuses to migrate it?22:28
SD69the part you get admin rights too22:29
ivgalvezRegiie is owner of TMO and he's OK with migration22:29
ivgalvezhe has already comment about that22:29
ivgalvezExtras can be downloaded and rebuilt elsewhere22:29
ivgalvezmerlin1991, pali and others have backups22:30
ivgalvezthe problem is the copyrighted material22:30
Estel_Nokia repo, in worst case, can be accesible after signing eula, for everyone22:30
ivgalvezthat would be next point to deal with22:30
Estel_i.e., essentialy, clicking "I agree"22:30
Estel_for EULA22:30
Estel_Nokai repos with closed things isn';t big deal.22:30
Estel_as said, we have EULA now22:30
ivgalvezwe might need to share that by P2P or whatever22:31
Estel_we can copy and paste it, and require to accept it before providing access to repos22:31
Estel_p2p is not an option, we need working repositories to maintain community22:31
Estel_but as said, as per my knowledge, it's not a problem22:31
Estel_probably, we will be able to provide it, Nokia isn't that evil ;)22:31
Estel_if it is, after all, we can do it via using current eula22:31
Estel_(end user license agreement)22:32
ivgalveznot for Nokia binaries (qgil was clear about that) but for 3rd parties... as said, that's going to be the difficult point to be addressed during next months22:32
Estel_ivgalvez, any parts, even 3th party.22:32
Estel_users of devices are able to access it via accepting eula22:32
ivgalvezwe need to confirm that22:32
Estel_in worst case scenario, wer can just require accepting it again, before access t things22:32
Estel_AFAIk, it's already confirmed22:33
Estel_Woody, as our great secretary, have this somewhere in documents22:33
ivgalvezin this point we need to be very carefully22:33
Estel_sure thing.22:33
Estel_IIRC, no force in the universe :) can deny us redistributing it, as long as we require accepting22:34
Estel_and it's worst case scenario, there are better ones possible22:34
ivgalvezOK, then anything else to comment? elsewhere let's summarize open tasks22:34
nieldkCA shipments?22:35
nieldkapparently thise are a complete mess ATM22:37
ivgalveznothing to do ATM, qgil has commented it's ongoing22:38
SD69I got an email of my CA today22:38
nieldkOK, lets leave it for the time being, and see what happens during next week22:39
SD69Sorry got to go - bye everyone22:39
ivgalvezOK, open tasks:22:40
ivgalvezall: comment by email on document to form legal entity22:40
ivgalvezSD69: refine documment with councellors feedback22:40
ivgalvezivgalvez: contact X-Fade to ask about possibility to obtain any administrative rights on services  until migration22:41
ivgalvezivgalvez: prepare minutes from meeting22:41
Estel_so, we've concluded today's meeting?22:42
ivgalvezmeeting concluded22:42
Estel_it seems so :) See ya, everyone!22:42
ivgalvezthanks everyone22:42
nieldksee you all, and thanks22:42
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