IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-06-15

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Woody14619Hmm.. Meeting in 3 minutes-ish... And nobody else is here? :P20:58
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Estel_Hello there.21:00
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ivgalvezhi all21:01
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Woody14619Yup21:02
Estel_Hello :)21:02
Woody14619I've been here for 4 days. :)21:02
Estel_Nice to see You here, I was afraid we're going to discuss alone ;)21:02
SD69hi21:02
Woody14619We are still missing Niel?21:02
Estel_traditionally, we wait 5 minutes for late ones21:03
ivgalvezI hope we won't discuss, instead make agreements21:03
Estel_SD69 is here21:03
Estel_any sign from Niel?21:03
Estel_please, before we begin, check my latest mails to council@maemo.org21:03
Woody14619He replied to mail not long ago. :)  Maybe a subtle reminder e-mail? :)21:03
Estel_also, everyone seen Qgil message, yep?21:03
Estel_Woody14619,  good idea. I'll send it21:04
SD69I've seen Quim's email21:04
Estel_sent.21:05
Estel_anyway.21:05
Woody14619As have I. :(  I'm happy to hear he is still at least there.  Several large names have already confirmed they are not there much longer.21:05
Estel_yea, it's really sad. Although, no surprise21:06
Estel_I'm also glad Quim is honest with us.21:06
Estel_I'm quite sure we can rely on him providing info ASAP21:06
Estel_ok, it's after startying time.21:06
Woody14619I think the scale is a bit of a suprise...  Most were expecting a slower, subtler rampdown I think.21:06
Estel_I'm glad to open 4th Council's meeting21:07
Estel_todays agenda:21:07
Woody14619#being maemo Council meeting21:07
Estel_1. Clearing up confusion about IRC management21:07
Estel_2. Quim's e-mail about Nokia follow-up21:08
Estel_3. Community Awards - approaching finale21:08
Estel_4. Status update about other things21:08
Woody14619Can I propose we change the order?  3-2-1-4?21:08
ivgalvezI'd like to add this issue to discussion: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1220864&postcount=1621:09
Estel_Little warning - If I dissapear without sign at any moment, it mean my N900 lost contact with eMMC, and I'm fighting hard to regain funcionality :(21:09
SD69yes, please change the order21:09
ivgalvezmaybe for point 421:09
Estel_I'm ok with order change + including ivgalvez suggestion21:09
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Woody14619Awesome... And Niel is here too. :)21:09
Estel_hi NielDK21:10
Estel_nice You've made it here21:10
Woody14619So: 1> Communit awards - aproaching finale21:10
Estel_yea.21:10
Estel_As said in CA annoucement, accepting submission ends on Sunday, 23:59:59 UTC21:11
Estel_...then, we have week for deciding winners.21:11
ivgalvezFinal decission shuld be taken afterwards21:11
Woody14619I think we put a self-imposed time-line of June 23d on ourselves, right?21:11
ivgalvezagreed21:11
Estel_yes. As said in mail to council@maemo.org, I agree with ivgalvez about deciding it on internal meeting21:11
NielDKhi therw21:11
Estel_BTW, it was agreed before?21:12
Estel_that we don't publish internal discussions a\out candidates for CA:21:12
SD69before June 23rd I think21:12
Estel_although, I don't think using mail for this *only* is most effective21:12
Estel_SD69, right.21:12
Estel_we can use closed IRC channel for real time discussion21:12
NielDKagree21:13
Estel_aklso, I propose to try getting consensus about winners first, and vote only if needed21:13
Woody14619I think the discussions should be private, but I'd like the final listing agreed on to be put through e-mail just so we have it.21:13
Estel_Any thoughts?21:13
Estel_of course21:13
ivgalvezok21:13
Woody14619I'm fine with using both, just have to make sure we're all avaialble for a review session21:13
Estel_OK. When can we set up special Council meeting about CA?21:14
Estel_yea21:14
Woody14619It would be preferably if we showed up with our own list and all having reviewed candidates on our own (to save time)21:14
Estel_yes.21:14
ivgalvezyes, a first draft will save time21:14
NielDKagree21:14
Estel_any propositions of date and time?21:14
Woody14619So I'm voting maybe  Wed or Friday?21:14
Estel_as usual, I'm probably most elastic about availability21:15
Woody14619Thursdays are bad for me (18:00 to 20:00 meeting Tues)21:15
ivgalvezI'm pretty sure it will take time enough for more that one meeting21:15
Estel_well, I though we can meet on Day after Monday(TM) (pun intended)21:15
Estel_ivgalvez,  thats why we should meet early21:15
Estel_at least first meeting21:15
ivgalvezyes, the sooner the better21:15
NielDKwednesday is good, either before 13UTC or after 19UTC (would wirk for me friday also)21:16
Woody14619So it's sounding like Tues/Wed/Fri all work.21:16
NielDKyes21:16
Woody14619Do we want to shoot for Tues?  Then have the option of  a fall-back Wed/Fri if needed?21:17
Estel_Tues sounds OK for me21:17
ivgalvezCan we make first attempt for Tues?21:17
NielDKyes21:17
SD69yes21:17
Estel_hour availability on Tues? please list Yours21:17
Estel_mine - 00:00-23:59 :P21:17
Woody1461914:00 or later works for me generally.21:17
Estel_(of course in UTC)21:18
Woody14619(Keeping in mind 16:00 is lunch for me. :)21:18
Estel_ivgalvez,  SD69, NielDK?21:18
NielDK7-13 or after 19 (UTC)21:18
SD69anytime21:18
Estel_all right, so it seems 19?21:18
Estel_or 20 as today?21:19
ivgalvez14:00 to 19:0021:19
Estel_damn21:19
ivgalvez19:00 should be fine, shouldn't it?21:19
Estel_start on 19: if it's not problem for Your ivgalvez, it's all right21:20
Woody14619I would have to leave by 24:00, but if we go that late, you will all be tired anyway. ;)21:20
Estel_(You've listedc 14-19 as availability)21:20
ivgalvezno wait!21:20
ivgalvez19:00 is 21:00 at Madrid21:20
Estel_yep.21:20
Estel_same here (Poland)21:20
ivgalvezso best to start before that21:20
Estel_but NielDK is available from 1921:21
Estel_not before21:21
NielDKshould start 18 UTC (like now)?21:21
Estel_so You and NielDK have conflicting availabilities21:21
ivgalvez18 UTC21:21
Estel_NielDK,  would You make it here on 18 UTC Tues?21:21
NielDKi will try and wirk that out21:21
NielDKwork21:21
Estel_Woody14619,  no jokes, I'm sure we will end up with winner list in less than 1 hour time ;)21:22
Estel_OK, so lest have it @ 18 UTC Tues21:22
Estel_at private channel21:22
NielDKagreed21:22
SD69and someone will send tentative list before meeting?21:22
Woody14619While I love the wishful thinking, it's taken us 20 minutes to agree on a time...  I somehow doubt agreement on 25 people in thrice that time. ;)21:22
Estel_Point 2: Quim e-mail about Nokia21:23
Estel_generally, not much to discuss here, IMO. It's nice to have him as our contact.21:23
Woody14619Sad, but happy to hear he's still on board and being communicative with us.21:23
ivgalvezyep, nothing to do at this moment21:23
Woody14619Point 3: Topic from Ivan on qt-components?21:24
SD69well, communicative, but nothing we can use21:24
ivgalvezwe will hear for sure more announces like that21:24
Estel_I'm sure he will keep his 6-months-before warning promise21:24
NielDK3-621:24
SD69I think we just got our 6 month warning21:24
Estel_but, do You think we should make some preparations in case of even more ramp?21:24
ivgalvezI don't think it's time (yet)21:24
Estel_I mean, 6 months isn't long for estabilishing self-funding21:25
Woody14619I think we already have to some degree.... OBS is almost in testing stages...21:25
Estel_ivgalvez,  agree21:25
SD69it always takes twice as long as you think21:25
Estel_SD69, agree too21:25
Estel_I think we should at least get info about things required to form legal entity - just in case21:25
SD69Mer has been around longer and still does not have funding for next year yet21:25
Estel_this way, we don't need to do it after getting info21:26
Woody14619The larger issue here is setting up an international NFP... legal issues per country change a lot.21:26
Estel_if we wouldn't need it - it's great21:26
ivgalvezquestion about qt-components: the problem seem to be promotion of a package depending a non-free packages21:26
Woody14619We should really tap into Mer.  Seeing the roadblocks they've hit will help us avoid them.21:26
Estel_anyone here is a lawyer? ;)21:26
SD69I am a lawyer21:27
Estel_yea, but last tome I've as ked, javispedro wasn't very sympathetic to idea of cooperation21:27
Estel_especially, that it was proposal for helping Mer to gather funds21:27
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ivgalvezWell Mer has it's own roadmap and goals21:28
Estel_SD69, seriously? but specializations vary, do You have any idea about setting NFP in EU?21:28
ivgalvezbut wure could share resources with them21:28
ivgalvezsure21:28
SD69I'm in USA21:28
Estel_well, I think even deciding if we should base in EU or USA can take 6 months ;)21:29
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Estel_lets postpone it for, at least, after CA21:29
ivgalvezlet's try to focus on actual issues21:30
Woody14619As all the existing resources are already in EU, I would think the simplest task would be to setup in the existing country.21:30
Estel_we will have more time then21:30
Estel_yea, USA is prime example of non existing country ;)21:30
Estel_(joke)21:30
Estel_we can try sealand21:30
Estel_seriously though21:30
Estel_so I think we agree to move into point 3 now?21:30
Estel_IRC management.21:31
Estel_First of all:21:31
Woody14619that's point 4 right now... we're on 321:31
Woody14619Whichis the QT issue Ivan brought up.21:31
Estel_no one ever said about pushing X-Fade into something, or taking anything from him, exclusively21:31
Estel_no, it was point 421:31
Estel_he proposed to add it as point 421:31
Estel_anyway21:31
Woody14619k.21:31
Estel_1. X-Fade isn't paid for managing IRC. Period. He did it in his spare time, and we're grateful21:32
Woody14619I do recall you saying, quite explicitly "take the tools from X- Fade"21:32
Estel_2. He is very sympathetic and helpful21:32
Estel_no conflict here21:32
Estel_take from him != exclude him21:32
Woody14619I never said it did...21:32
Estel_TMO, IRC and mailing list are 3 main ways of massive communication for Community21:33
Estel_mailing list is primary, iRC secondary ]swurprise!), and TMO is last one21:33
Estel_TMO is managed by Reggie (obviously)21:33
Woody14619Community maybe.  But those communities rarely interact.21:33
ivgalvezI'd keep administrative privileges for administrator (i.e. Nokia/Nemein), they have the knowledge and are paid for it (at least by now)21:33
Estel_he agreed, some time ago, that posts are belonging to Community21:33
Estel_now about IRC21:34
Estel_ivgalvez,  I agree21:34
ivgalvezsame way TMO is managed by Reggie, IRC is managed by X-Fade21:34
Estel_still, I don't agree with current way chanops are managed - literally, outsiode Community governance21:34
ivgalvezOK, that's a different point21:35
Estel_ivgalvez,  and there is great chancde that TMO will give us great problems, if Nokia pull up funding21:35
Woody14619But BE-ING a chanop gives you no power to affect that Estel_.21:35
ivgalvezso we can now settle down the question about administration21:35
Estel_as Reggie already said hes not interested in keeping forum for Community outside Nokia21:35
Estel_Woody14619,  first of all:21:35
Estel_ivgalvez presented great idea of transparent management for chanops21:35
ivgalvezIf there's no funding all will have to be moved to greener pastures21:35
Estel_= allowing Community, as a whole, to discuss it21:36
Estel_review21:36
Estel_propose21:36
ivgalvezbut that's not the questions21:36
Estel_etc.21:36
Woody14619I agree with all that.... Policy making is the purview of Council.21:36
Estel_I would feel dumb to propose something like that to Community... Without having tools to keep word on it.21:36
Woody14619And BEING chanop does NOT give you the tools for that.21:36
ivgalveztools is Nokia/Nemein contact point21:36
Estel_agree. I don't want to be chanop, LOL21:36
Woody14619You can be chanop all day, and have NO ability to change who is and isn't chanop.21:37
Estel_ivgalvez, agree.21:37
Estel_having two +f is problematic21:37
Woody14619Those are NOT linked things.  There's another, entirely separate status, that allows that.21:37
Estel_and not feasible.21:37
Estel_Woody14619,  yea, that's +f ;)21:37
ivgalvezwell then, can we agree that administration keeps as it is now?21:37
Woody14619They why have you been so focused on being chanop?21:38
SD69I vote for no change to chanops21:38
Estel_not entirely. As said initialy, we need to tell X-Fade we agree to take RESPONSIBILITY over it21:38
SD69...at this time21:38
Estel_!= granting us privilleges of +f21:38
Estel_Woody14619,  I haven't. You seem to be addicted to wrong beliefs ;)21:38
Woody14619Your previous e-mails have implied otherwise...21:39
ivgalvezdo you mean responsibilty for naming chanops?21:39
SD69sorry guys, an emergency has come up and I need to sign off21:39
Estel_no. My previous email have implied that there was no transaparent way of managing chanops21:39
Estel_and that we should pick up responsibility over it.21:39
ivgalvezI don't have to much time left21:39
Estel_SD69, OK21:39
Estel_my proposition:21:39
SD69I'll talk to you on Tuesday21:39
Estel_lets create Council nickserv name, shared among Councilors21:40
Estel_with regular chanop privileges, NOT to be used outside emergency21:40
SD69bye21:40
Woody14619bye SD6921:40
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Estel_i.e. if apocalypsde happen, we don't need to wait for monday to pester X-Fade21:40
ivgalvezok, so why don't we start by reviewing current chanop naming scheme and if any of you have a proposal on how to improve it let's discuss it by email?21:40
Estel_ivgalvez,  good idea.21:40
ivgalvezwith detailed explanations21:41
Estel_I agree ob this, but I think we should also have emergency button21:41
Woody14619I'm confued Estel_.... Why do *We* need chanop?21:41
ivgalvezI mean, you know I'm a IRC newbie21:41
Estel_Woody14619,  account for use *only* in situations of emergency21:41
Estel_i.e. spam floods21:41
Woody14619It has nothing to do with management of chanops.21:41
Estel_abuse of privilleges21:41
Estel_etc.21:41
ivgalvezthen the same logic should be applied to TMO forums21:42
Estel_as per current situation, we're screwed if something like bot attacki on TMO happen21:42
Estel_it is.21:42
Estel_TMO was paralyzed for week21:42
Woody14619No, we're not....21:42
Estel_until things like spam moderators emerged21:42
Estel_in casxe of current chanop going crazy - which isn't so far from reality - or any spambotg attack21:42
Woody14619Right now there are at least 2 active chanops on the channel, and 2 in an away status.21:42
Estel_we're literally screwed.21:43
Estel_outy of 10?21:43
Estel_doesn't sound very safe.21:43
Woody14619How many would make you feel safe?21:43
ivgalvezI don't see the need to mix chanops (or moderators) with Council memberships21:43
ivgalvezbut any one can propose himself todo more than one role21:43
Estel_Woody14619,  account shared between Community representatives would make me feel very safe ;)21:43
Woody14619Need I remind you, even if YOU had chanop, had something happened here this week (which it did btw), YOU were not here...21:43
ivgalvezdor example I'm also a Tester21:43
Estel_Woody14619,  not me.21:44
Stskeeps((can community comment too in a council meeting?))21:44
Estel_could You jump off from my back, please?21:44
ivgalvezof course21:44
Woody14619I saw it, pinged a chanop, and 20 seconds later it was handled....21:44
Estel_do You expect any week without any Councilor?21:44
Estel_Ivgalvez, emergency account != regular chanop21:44
Estel_it shouldn't be used to sit there and glow with authority ;)21:44
Estel_it's like emergency account21:44
ivgalvezStskeeps, please comment21:44
Woody14619I dislike a "community" account.  It open the posability for abuse.21:45
Estel_Stskeeps,  of course.21:45
Estel_Stskeeps,  meetings are open for Community21:45
* Woody14619 listens for StsKeeps.21:45
Estel_that's why we're in maemo-meeting channel ;)21:45
ivgalvezI don't see the need of community account if there is enough number of people willing to cooperate in the different areas21:45
Stskeepsok, simple rule of irc chan ops is never giving it to those that ask for it, but instead regulate it with those who seem sane and around. having a shared nickname is ripe for abuse. if there's observations that more people need ops, you talk to the people who can add it21:45
Stskeepsi've been doing irc and the worst irc network politics you've ever seen, so speaking from observation and practice21:46
Estel_Stskeeps,  Woody14619 also arised this ripe for abuse thing.21:46
Estel_It seems reasonable.21:46
Stskeepsif there's a need for extra ops, just talk to xfade about pointing out some people who are active and aren't insane. i used to op in #maemo but the atmosphere turned immensely toxic.21:46
Stskeepsso that's why i no longer visit or op there21:46
Estel_all right, so what You would propose for *transparent*management over channels belonging to Community?21:47
ivgalvezguys, I have to go in a minute21:47
ivgalvezanyone knows is the claim of "it's not possible to promote a package depending on non-free packages" is even correct.21:47
Estel_ivgalvez,  correct21:47
Estel_'m sure he can put it into normal repos21:47
Stskeepsi don't personally feel #maemo ever was a maemo.org thing, it preceded that, but that's just my own feeling21:47
Estel_and include license21:47
Estel_stating it'sw closed etc21:47
Stskeeps(end of statement)21:47
Estel_Stskeeps,  current status is that it is Community thing21:47
Woody14619I will talk to X-Fade about it via e-mail ivgalvez... And see if we can change it if that is true.21:47
Estel_we're discussing how to make chanop management there more transparent for Community21:48
Estel_as for now, 7 out of 10 chanops are inactive21:48
ivgalvezthanks Woody14619, I can also do it myself if you're busy21:48
Estel_or not related to Maemo anymore21:48
Woody14619ivgalvez, let's both ask... :)  Worst case he gets asked twice. ;)21:48
ivgalvezK. thanks sorry I have to leave21:49
Estel_see ya ivgalvez!21:49
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Woody14619Estel_, several of the ops are probably asleep....21:49
Woody14619Least we forget, IRC is 24/7.21:49
Estel_Woody14619,  not related. Keeping way it is now is a no-go.21:49
Woody14619For you... and only you.21:50
Estel_it seems that it'sx not the case.21:50
Estel_Instead, You're only one who try to pivot unto keeping it out of Community supervising.21:50
Estel_for unknown reasons.21:50
Woody14619No...21:50
Woody14619I have no problems with us *supervising* it.21:51
Estel_Stskeeps is right - sane people that are often on IRC should be chanops21:51
Estel_not colleagues of current chanops.21:51
Estel_define supervising, then.21:51
Woody14619Council putting a poilicy into effect is well within the purview.21:51
Estel_OK, here we agree.21:51
Estel_so what this policy should look like?21:51
Estel_s/what/how/21:51
Woody14619Changing how chanops are put in, requirments, etc.  That is something we can do.21:51
Estel_aye. so, how in Your opinion, it should look like?21:52
Woody14619US, and Council, having chanops, accomplishes *nothing*.21:52
Estel_agreed.21:52
Woody14619SO WHY ARE YOU PUSHING FOR THAT?21:52
Estel_so lets just move to policies21:52
Woody14619No..21:52
Woody14619I want to talk about this and resolve it.21:52
Estel_as usual, You're not understanding what I proposed ;)21:53
Woody14619Why do you feel the need for Council to have chanop?21:53
Estel_it was proposition for emergency, but it seems that it was wrong idea.21:53
NielDKwhat good are policies, if we dont have some authority on them beeing followed?21:53
Estel_both You and Stskeeps pointed out security risk21:53
Woody14619You've propsed it for individuals, or for a Council based accoutn now at least 4 times.21:53
Estel_and I tend to agree.21:53
Estel_NielDK,  current proposition is, as I understand it21:53
Estel_is that we setup policies21:54
Woody14619Nieldk, having chanop does not give us authority to enforce policy either...21:54
Estel_then, X-Fade, asked by us, promote chanops or degrade old ones21:54
Estel_everything based on policies defined21:54
Stskeepsmakes sense21:54
Woody14619I agree that right now we have a rather informal policy.21:54
NielDKits a best start21:54
Estel_ok21:55
Estel_so we have agreement here :)21:55
Woody14619I would like to see us form a policy (if anything).21:55
NielDKagreed21:55
Estel_so, again, I'm asking about opoinions how those polcies should look21:55
Woody14619That would be far more effective then asking for chanop or founder status.21:55
Estel_= how to make them sane, transparent, yet feasible.21:55
Woody14619For that, I think we need input from people experience in IRC  (like Stskeeps and others)21:56
Woody14619My personal experience would lead to at least one steadfast rule:21:56
Estel_Stskeeps,  as we won't have chances to listen Your input if we continue to talk about it using council@maemo.org mailing list...21:56
Stskeepsyou can probably copy other polcies21:56
Estel_Whats Your view on this?21:56
Stskeepsgo look at other channels and see what they do, copy that, simple..21:56
Estel_i.e. how You would construct such sane policies, in principle?21:56
Estel_I see.21:56
Woody14619Ops will not be grated to any person who has been on the IRC system or the #maemo channel heirarchy for less than 6 months.21:56
Estel_define "being".21:57
Stskeepsit really doesn't have to be difficult, tbh :P21:57
Estel_ mean define "been"21:57
Estel_logged in once year ago, then absent? :P21:57
Estel_I agree with Stskeeps, overcomplication isn't good21:57
Woody14619Been means having a qualified account, and being active at least 8 hours per week for that timeframe.21:57
NielDKnow thats not transperent is it ?21:58
Estel_who is going to count that? 0_o including vacations etc21:58
Woody14619How is that not transparent NielDk?21:58
Woody14619Bots.21:58
Estel_of course it isn't, IMO21:58
Woody14619Bots do all that already....21:58
Estel_proxy bouncer21:58
Estel_honestly - Councilors active on IRC could submit candidates, for review...21:59
Woody14619infobot will tell you all kinds of wonderful things about people, just ask it.  Things like ~seen and the like.21:59
Estel_if no valid protests21:59
Estel_it's granted21:59
Estel_if valid concerns, it's not.21:59
Woody14619Why would Council have any clue what's going on in IRC?21:59
Woody14619That's like having your janitor choose who your CEO is....21:59
Estel_because some of the Councilors read 100% of IRC from #maemo, #maemo-ssu etc?21:59
Estel_including weekends? ;)22:00
Woody14619That's great... As do lots of people not on Council.22:00
Woody14619But lots of people on Council *dont* do that....22:00
Estel_yea, but we can't invite everyone to submit candidates.22:00
Estel_so they dont submit candidates.22:00
Woody14619Being Council has no bearing on activity.22:00
Estel_simple as that22:00
Woody14619We already do....22:00
Estel_I haven't said You're forced to submit someone. Lets use common sense.22:01
Woody14619The existing policy is that anyone (even someone not a chanop) and suggest someone be a chanop.22:01
Estel_Woody14619,  someone have to decide, at the end22:01
Woody14619And that decission is generally left to X-Fade, and the other chanops.22:01
Estel_it shouldn't be association of simulatenous adoration, where existing chanops decide about new chanops (only)22:01
Estel_nope.22:01
Woody14619In the same way a company hiring is based on the opinions of the person running the company and the managers at that company.22:02
Estel_X-Fade, generally, agreed to make chanops and remove them22:02
Estel_as per Council's requests.22:02
Woody14619I've yet to hear that from X-Fade...22:02
Estel_after all, we're elected to maikntain some responsibilities too, not only discuss hapilly.22:02
Woody14619I think you are taking something he's said out of context, frankly.22:02
Estel_Woody14619,  see irc log from last meeting with him ;)22:02
Estel_I'll gladly forward his mails clarifing it.22:02
Estel_BTW, why You think he shouldnt like it, anyway?22:03
Estel_it's Community respinsibility, and Council is elected to do some job too, not only discuss for months, about simple things.22:03
Woody14619So... you've been mailing X-Fade about the Council proposal privately?22:03
Estel_nope.22:03
Estel_I've been mailing X-Fade as a chair, about what is *possible*22:04
NielDKi believe Woody stated why quite clearly in his mails22:04
Woody14619> <Estel_> I'll gladly forward his mails clarifing it.22:04
Woody14619Then explaint hat please?22:04
Estel_then, forwarded proposition to Council via mailing list.22:04
Woody14619so, you HAVE been mailing X-Fade about this privately....AS CHAIR.22:04
Estel_simple - I've asked him hpw we could resolve nominating chanops and removing inactive/qwrong ones.22:04
Estel_He, as a sane person using common sense, replied...22:05
Woody14619Sigh.22:05
Estel_that he will gladly do that, as soon as I'll send him any requests.22:05
Woody14619K... I'm really tired of this BS frankly.22:05
Estel_Woody14619,  if You would read mailing loist, You would know that already, lol.22:05
Woody14619I'm not up for playing childish games.22:05
Woody14619???22:05
Woody14619REally?22:05
Woody14619I read the mailing list...22:06
Woody14619Clearly...22:06
Woody14619Moreso than you have this week.22:06
Woody14619Please stop being an ass?22:06
Woody14619Right... so.. next topic...22:07
NielDKFTR frankly I agree with Woody, as the chair you have the mandate to speak on councils behalf, not privately -22:07
Woody14619I've taken the action item to talk to X-Fade about the promotion handler...22:08
Woody14619As has Ivan... Whoever gets there first will e-mail.22:08
Woody14619As for the IRC topic, the proposal has shifted at least 3 times now.22:08
NielDKcan you and I agree on whom takes action? looks unprof and foolish honestly if two sends same mail22:09
Woody14619The original proposal (email from June 10, 2012) cited "I proposed to open possibility of being chanops for Councilors,"22:09
Woody14619That proposal as since morphed into "taking control" and now to policy creation.22:10
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NielDKright22:10
Woody14619While I like the latter, I would propose we move toward that goal vs others.22:10
Woody14619NielDK, looks like it's just us now.. so. :P22:10
NielDK:p22:11
Woody14619NielDK, while I would agree, good odds we will both next see X-Fade at the OBS meeting anyway. :)22:11
NielDKgood then22:11
NielDKshould I dig around for usefull policies then?22:12
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Woody14619That would be a great thing to do, IMHO. :)22:13
Estel_ouh22:13
Estel_<Woody14619> I'm not up for playing childish games.22:13
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Estel_<Estel_> frankly, You're overcomplicating simple and natural things.22:13
Estel_<Estel_> honestly, I don't see what's Your problem now.22:14
Estel_<Estel_> as said already, and I though we all agree (both Councilors and Community as per Stskeeps ;) )22:14
Estel_<Estel_> we set up sane policy22:14
Estel_<Estel_> agree on it.22:14
Estel_<Estel_> then, we proceed, and contact X-Fade about granting permission or remove them.22:14
Estel_<Estel_> he confirmed that it's all right.22:14
Estel_<Estel_> he confirmed that it's all right.22:14
Estel_<Estel_> as soon as we finally agree on those policies and start using them ;)22:14
Estel_<Estel_> where here is, actually, point of conflict?22:14
Estel_<Estel_> NielDK,  any comments?22:14
Estel_<Estel_> because either I'm missing something, or someone forget about "people mean well" :)22:14
Estel_<Estel_> it's a pity, that ivgalvez and SD69 had to depat earlier, as it would be great to, finally, settle this.22:15
Estel_<Estel_> I got strange feeling, that, for two weeks, we're over-discussing simple things, instead of focusing on actually *doing*.22:15
Estel_sorry, got dc'ed22:15
Estel_pasting multiline on X-Chat suxx22:15
Woody14619The point of conflict is your continued push for chanops.  That was what the proposed vote was about.22:15
Estel_Woody14619,  please re-read.22:16
Woody14619If you've abandoned that position, then there is no longer a conflict.22:16
Estel_nice.22:16
Estel_as, lately, You seemed to be furious that I, as a chairp contacted X-Fade about possible solutions22:16
Estel_which is, honestly, confusing for me.22:16
Woody14619Niel has taken the task of looking at other groups policies for promotion.22:16
Estel_if You've abandoned it, there is no point of conflict now.22:17
Estel_all right22:17
Estel_sounds reasonable.22:17
Woody14619I am upset that you contiune to use your *position* in Council to do things privately without the concent of Council.22:17
Woody14619That point has been made clear multiple times now.22:17
Estel_define privately.22:17
Woody14619no22:17
Woody14619Any sane person knows what privately meens.22:18
Estel_Asking about possible solutions, then forwarding that to Council and asking for decisions looks like perfectly fit for chair position, IMO22:18
NielDKseems you, Estel_  actually understood this previousky22:18
Estel_NielDK,  any comments on this? i.e. do You feel that asking X-Fade if our ideas are possible and oki for him...22:18
Estel_is private? 0_o?22:19
Estel_last time I've checked, such formaglities were part of chair's job.22:19
Woody14619I would agree, if not for the fact that several times your questions are both leading, misleading, and often misrepresent the will if Council as a whole.  Substituting your own beliefs and feelings as those of the Council at large.22:19
Estel_would like to hear other Councilors feedback on this, if there is any problem22:19
Estel_and, apparently, as per Woody's problem creation, there is one.22:20
Estel_Woody14619,  examples?22:20
Woody14619I think that feedback was quite clear already, in the thread where this was discussed after your mailing on the community mailing list, and the incident with Maxim.22:20
Estel_nope.22:20
NielDKi agree with Woody, you cant act on councils behalf on issues we didnt discuss22:20
Estel_NielDK,  all right - lets add this as agenda point 522:21
Estel_then, as SD69 and ivgalvez are away...22:21
Estel_wer will forward question to them vfia mail.22:21
Estel_if they also think contacting X-Fade about formal possibilities - DURING, not before our discussion about it- is wrong22:21
Estel_I'll gladly pass chair position to other Couincilor.22:22
NielDKthen lets add that to next meeting as a point22:22
Estel_agree.22:23
Woody14619K... so in case Estel_ missed it:22:23
Estel_any other propositions for agenda points today?22:23
Woody14619I've taken the action item to talk to X-Fade about the promotion handler...22:23
Woody14619As has Ivan... Whoever gets there first will e-mail.22:24
Estel_about non-free?22:24
Woody14619yup.  Ivan's topic.22:24
Estel_dully noted.22:24
Woody14619It seems like something that should be easy to handle....22:24
Estel_I suspect it might be impossible before COBS22:24
Estel_but, let's check that.22:24
Woody14619It may turn out to be the case, but can't hurt to ask.22:24
Woody14619Worst case, since the author is active, he can get it to the point of promotion and X-Fade can promote it by hand for now.22:25
Woody14619This isn't likely a long-term maintainance project from the looks of it anyway.22:25
Estel_non-free components are unpromoteable by design22:25
Estel_anyway, X-Fade will answer it for sure.22:26
Estel_any other points for today?22:26
Woody14619I think thats it?22:26
NielDKno22:26
Estel_Woody14619,  You will handle minutes as usual?22:26
Woody14619I see no Pali here today. :)22:26
Estel_:)22:26
Woody14619Yup... will do.22:27
Woody14619I will try to get them out today so everyone has the weekend to review.22:27
Estel_ah, as usual, I haven't got ivgalvez's and SD69 keynotes for inaugurating blog entry22:27
Woody14619Oh.. right..22:27
Estel_I think we can skip it, after all, it's almost month now :P22:27
Woody14619we really should review ais from the last meeting, but then we only had like 3?22:27
Estel_but, it's quite possible, that new chair will have to decide.22:27
Estel_yes.22:27
Woody14619K.22:28
Woody14619And 2 of those were long term... so still on-going (notes & project advacement)22:28
* Estel_ nods22:28
Woody14619K.. I'll do minutes.  See some of you Monday at OBS, or Tues for CA review.22:29
Estel_so, I'm closing today's meeting :) thanks for participation.22:29
NielDKthanks all22:29
Woody14619#end Mameo Council meeting22:29
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