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| Woody14619 | Hmm.. Meeting in 3 minutes-ish... And nobody else is here? :P | 20:58 |
|---|---|---|
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| Estel_ | Hello there. | 21:00 |
| *** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:01 | |
| ivgalvez | hi all | 21:01 |
| *** SD69 has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:01 | |
| Woody14619 | Yup | 21:02 |
| Estel_ | Hello :) | 21:02 |
| Woody14619 | I've been here for 4 days. :) | 21:02 |
| Estel_ | Nice to see You here, I was afraid we're going to discuss alone ;) | 21:02 |
| SD69 | hi | 21:02 |
| Woody14619 | We are still missing Niel? | 21:02 |
| Estel_ | traditionally, we wait 5 minutes for late ones | 21:03 |
| ivgalvez | I hope we won't discuss, instead make agreements | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | SD69 is here | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | any sign from Niel? | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | please, before we begin, check my latest mails to council@maemo.org | 21:03 |
| Woody14619 | He replied to mail not long ago. :) Maybe a subtle reminder e-mail? :) | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | also, everyone seen Qgil message, yep? | 21:03 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, good idea. I'll send it | 21:04 |
| SD69 | I've seen Quim's email | 21:04 |
| Estel_ | sent. | 21:05 |
| Estel_ | anyway. | 21:05 |
| Woody14619 | As have I. :( I'm happy to hear he is still at least there. Several large names have already confirmed they are not there much longer. | 21:05 |
| Estel_ | yea, it's really sad. Although, no surprise | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | I'm also glad Quim is honest with us. | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | I'm quite sure we can rely on him providing info ASAP | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | ok, it's after startying time. | 21:06 |
| Woody14619 | I think the scale is a bit of a suprise... Most were expecting a slower, subtler rampdown I think. | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | I'm glad to open 4th Council's meeting | 21:07 |
| Estel_ | todays agenda: | 21:07 |
| Woody14619 | #being maemo Council meeting | 21:07 |
| Estel_ | 1. Clearing up confusion about IRC management | 21:07 |
| Estel_ | 2. Quim's e-mail about Nokia follow-up | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | 3. Community Awards - approaching finale | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | 4. Status update about other things | 21:08 |
| Woody14619 | Can I propose we change the order? 3-2-1-4? | 21:08 |
| ivgalvez | I'd like to add this issue to discussion: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1220864&postcount=16 | 21:09 |
| Estel_ | Little warning - If I dissapear without sign at any moment, it mean my N900 lost contact with eMMC, and I'm fighting hard to regain funcionality :( | 21:09 |
| SD69 | yes, please change the order | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | maybe for point 4 | 21:09 |
| Estel_ | I'm ok with order change + including ivgalvez suggestion | 21:09 |
| *** NielDK has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:09 | |
| Woody14619 | Awesome... And Niel is here too. :) | 21:09 |
| Estel_ | hi NielDK | 21:10 |
| Estel_ | nice You've made it here | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | So: 1> Communit awards - aproaching finale | 21:10 |
| Estel_ | yea. | 21:10 |
| Estel_ | As said in CA annoucement, accepting submission ends on Sunday, 23:59:59 UTC | 21:11 |
| Estel_ | ...then, we have week for deciding winners. | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | Final decission shuld be taken afterwards | 21:11 |
| Woody14619 | I think we put a self-imposed time-line of June 23d on ourselves, right? | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | agreed | 21:11 |
| Estel_ | yes. As said in mail to council@maemo.org, I agree with ivgalvez about deciding it on internal meeting | 21:11 |
| NielDK | hi therw | 21:11 |
| Estel_ | BTW, it was agreed before? | 21:12 |
| Estel_ | that we don't publish internal discussions a\out candidates for CA: | 21:12 |
| SD69 | before June 23rd I think | 21:12 |
| Estel_ | although, I don't think using mail for this *only* is most effective | 21:12 |
| Estel_ | SD69, right. | 21:12 |
| Estel_ | we can use closed IRC channel for real time discussion | 21:12 |
| NielDK | agree | 21:13 |
| Estel_ | aklso, I propose to try getting consensus about winners first, and vote only if needed | 21:13 |
| Woody14619 | I think the discussions should be private, but I'd like the final listing agreed on to be put through e-mail just so we have it. | 21:13 |
| Estel_ | Any thoughts? | 21:13 |
| Estel_ | of course | 21:13 |
| ivgalvez | ok | 21:13 |
| Woody14619 | I'm fine with using both, just have to make sure we're all avaialble for a review session | 21:13 |
| Estel_ | OK. When can we set up special Council meeting about CA? | 21:14 |
| Estel_ | yea | 21:14 |
| Woody14619 | It would be preferably if we showed up with our own list and all having reviewed candidates on our own (to save time) | 21:14 |
| Estel_ | yes. | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | yes, a first draft will save time | 21:14 |
| NielDK | agree | 21:14 |
| Estel_ | any propositions of date and time? | 21:14 |
| Woody14619 | So I'm voting maybe Wed or Friday? | 21:14 |
| Estel_ | as usual, I'm probably most elastic about availability | 21:15 |
| Woody14619 | Thursdays are bad for me (18:00 to 20:00 meeting Tues) | 21:15 |
| ivgalvez | I'm pretty sure it will take time enough for more that one meeting | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | well, I though we can meet on Day after Monday(TM) (pun intended) | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, thats why we should meet early | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | at least first meeting | 21:15 |
| ivgalvez | yes, the sooner the better | 21:15 |
| NielDK | wednesday is good, either before 13UTC or after 19UTC (would wirk for me friday also) | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | So it's sounding like Tues/Wed/Fri all work. | 21:16 |
| NielDK | yes | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | Do we want to shoot for Tues? Then have the option of a fall-back Wed/Fri if needed? | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | Tues sounds OK for me | 21:17 |
| ivgalvez | Can we make first attempt for Tues? | 21:17 |
| NielDK | yes | 21:17 |
| SD69 | yes | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | hour availability on Tues? please list Yours | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | mine - 00:00-23:59 :P | 21:17 |
| Woody14619 | 14:00 or later works for me generally. | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | (of course in UTC) | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | (Keeping in mind 16:00 is lunch for me. :) | 21:18 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, SD69, NielDK? | 21:18 |
| NielDK | 7-13 or after 19 (UTC) | 21:18 |
| SD69 | anytime | 21:18 |
| Estel_ | all right, so it seems 19? | 21:18 |
| Estel_ | or 20 as today? | 21:19 |
| ivgalvez | 14:00 to 19:00 | 21:19 |
| Estel_ | damn | 21:19 |
| ivgalvez | 19:00 should be fine, shouldn't it? | 21:19 |
| Estel_ | start on 19: if it's not problem for Your ivgalvez, it's all right | 21:20 |
| Woody14619 | I would have to leave by 24:00, but if we go that late, you will all be tired anyway. ;) | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | (You've listedc 14-19 as availability) | 21:20 |
| ivgalvez | no wait! | 21:20 |
| ivgalvez | 19:00 is 21:00 at Madrid | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | yep. | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | same here (Poland) | 21:20 |
| ivgalvez | so best to start before that | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | but NielDK is available from 19 | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | not before | 21:21 |
| NielDK | should start 18 UTC (like now)? | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | so You and NielDK have conflicting availabilities | 21:21 |
| ivgalvez | 18 UTC | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | NielDK, would You make it here on 18 UTC Tues? | 21:21 |
| NielDK | i will try and wirk that out | 21:21 |
| NielDK | work | 21:21 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, no jokes, I'm sure we will end up with winner list in less than 1 hour time ;) | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | OK, so lest have it @ 18 UTC Tues | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | at private channel | 21:22 |
| NielDK | agreed | 21:22 |
| SD69 | and someone will send tentative list before meeting? | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | While I love the wishful thinking, it's taken us 20 minutes to agree on a time... I somehow doubt agreement on 25 people in thrice that time. ;) | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | Point 2: Quim e-mail about Nokia | 21:23 |
| Estel_ | generally, not much to discuss here, IMO. It's nice to have him as our contact. | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Sad, but happy to hear he's still on board and being communicative with us. | 21:23 |
| ivgalvez | yep, nothing to do at this moment | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Point 3: Topic from Ivan on qt-components? | 21:24 |
| SD69 | well, communicative, but nothing we can use | 21:24 |
| ivgalvez | we will hear for sure more announces like that | 21:24 |
| Estel_ | I'm sure he will keep his 6-months-before warning promise | 21:24 |
| NielDK | 3-6 | 21:24 |
| SD69 | I think we just got our 6 month warning | 21:24 |
| Estel_ | but, do You think we should make some preparations in case of even more ramp? | 21:24 |
| ivgalvez | I don't think it's time (yet) | 21:24 |
| Estel_ | I mean, 6 months isn't long for estabilishing self-funding | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | I think we already have to some degree.... OBS is almost in testing stages... | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, agree | 21:25 |
| SD69 | it always takes twice as long as you think | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | SD69, agree too | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | I think we should at least get info about things required to form legal entity - just in case | 21:25 |
| SD69 | Mer has been around longer and still does not have funding for next year yet | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | this way, we don't need to do it after getting info | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | The larger issue here is setting up an international NFP... legal issues per country change a lot. | 21:26 |
| Estel_ | if we wouldn't need it - it's great | 21:26 |
| ivgalvez | question about qt-components: the problem seem to be promotion of a package depending a non-free packages | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | We should really tap into Mer. Seeing the roadblocks they've hit will help us avoid them. | 21:26 |
| Estel_ | anyone here is a lawyer? ;) | 21:26 |
| SD69 | I am a lawyer | 21:27 |
| Estel_ | yea, but last tome I've as ked, javispedro wasn't very sympathetic to idea of cooperation | 21:27 |
| Estel_ | especially, that it was proposal for helping Mer to gather funds | 21:27 |
| *** NielDK has quit IRC | 21:28 | |
| ivgalvez | Well Mer has it's own roadmap and goals | 21:28 |
| Estel_ | SD69, seriously? but specializations vary, do You have any idea about setting NFP in EU? | 21:28 |
| ivgalvez | but wure could share resources with them | 21:28 |
| ivgalvez | sure | 21:28 |
| SD69 | I'm in USA | 21:28 |
| Estel_ | well, I think even deciding if we should base in EU or USA can take 6 months ;) | 21:29 |
| *** NielDK has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:29 | |
| Estel_ | lets postpone it for, at least, after CA | 21:29 |
| ivgalvez | let's try to focus on actual issues | 21:30 |
| Woody14619 | As all the existing resources are already in EU, I would think the simplest task would be to setup in the existing country. | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | we will have more time then | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | yea, USA is prime example of non existing country ;) | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | (joke) | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | we can try sealand | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | seriously though | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | so I think we agree to move into point 3 now? | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | IRC management. | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | First of all: | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | that's point 4 right now... we're on 3 | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | Whichis the QT issue Ivan brought up. | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | no one ever said about pushing X-Fade into something, or taking anything from him, exclusively | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | no, it was point 4 | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | he proposed to add it as point 4 | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | anyway | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | k. | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | 1. X-Fade isn't paid for managing IRC. Period. He did it in his spare time, and we're grateful | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | I do recall you saying, quite explicitly "take the tools from X- Fade" | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | 2. He is very sympathetic and helpful | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | no conflict here | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | take from him != exclude him | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | I never said it did... | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | TMO, IRC and mailing list are 3 main ways of massive communication for Community | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | mailing list is primary, iRC secondary ]swurprise!), and TMO is last one | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | TMO is managed by Reggie (obviously) | 21:33 |
| Woody14619 | Community maybe. But those communities rarely interact. | 21:33 |
| ivgalvez | I'd keep administrative privileges for administrator (i.e. Nokia/Nemein), they have the knowledge and are paid for it (at least by now) | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | he agreed, some time ago, that posts are belonging to Community | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | now about IRC | 21:34 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, I agree | 21:34 |
| ivgalvez | same way TMO is managed by Reggie, IRC is managed by X-Fade | 21:34 |
| Estel_ | still, I don't agree with current way chanops are managed - literally, outsiode Community governance | 21:34 |
| ivgalvez | OK, that's a different point | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, and there is great chancde that TMO will give us great problems, if Nokia pull up funding | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | But BE-ING a chanop gives you no power to affect that Estel_. | 21:35 |
| ivgalvez | so we can now settle down the question about administration | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | as Reggie already said hes not interested in keeping forum for Community outside Nokia | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, first of all: | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez presented great idea of transparent management for chanops | 21:35 |
| ivgalvez | If there's no funding all will have to be moved to greener pastures | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | = allowing Community, as a whole, to discuss it | 21:36 |
| Estel_ | review | 21:36 |
| Estel_ | propose | 21:36 |
| ivgalvez | but that's not the questions | 21:36 |
| Estel_ | etc. | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | I agree with all that.... Policy making is the purview of Council. | 21:36 |
| Estel_ | I would feel dumb to propose something like that to Community... Without having tools to keep word on it. | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | And BEING chanop does NOT give you the tools for that. | 21:36 |
| ivgalvez | tools is Nokia/Nemein contact point | 21:36 |
| Estel_ | agree. I don't want to be chanop, LOL | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | You can be chanop all day, and have NO ability to change who is and isn't chanop. | 21:37 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, agree. | 21:37 |
| Estel_ | having two +f is problematic | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | Those are NOT linked things. There's another, entirely separate status, that allows that. | 21:37 |
| Estel_ | and not feasible. | 21:37 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, yea, that's +f ;) | 21:37 |
| ivgalvez | well then, can we agree that administration keeps as it is now? | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | They why have you been so focused on being chanop? | 21:38 |
| SD69 | I vote for no change to chanops | 21:38 |
| Estel_ | not entirely. As said initialy, we need to tell X-Fade we agree to take RESPONSIBILITY over it | 21:38 |
| SD69 | ...at this time | 21:38 |
| Estel_ | != granting us privilleges of +f | 21:38 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, I haven't. You seem to be addicted to wrong beliefs ;) | 21:38 |
| Woody14619 | Your previous e-mails have implied otherwise... | 21:39 |
| ivgalvez | do you mean responsibilty for naming chanops? | 21:39 |
| SD69 | sorry guys, an emergency has come up and I need to sign off | 21:39 |
| Estel_ | no. My previous email have implied that there was no transaparent way of managing chanops | 21:39 |
| Estel_ | and that we should pick up responsibility over it. | 21:39 |
| ivgalvez | I don't have to much time left | 21:39 |
| Estel_ | SD69, OK | 21:39 |
| Estel_ | my proposition: | 21:39 |
| SD69 | I'll talk to you on Tuesday | 21:39 |
| Estel_ | lets create Council nickserv name, shared among Councilors | 21:40 |
| Estel_ | with regular chanop privileges, NOT to be used outside emergency | 21:40 |
| SD69 | bye | 21:40 |
| Woody14619 | bye SD69 | 21:40 |
| *** SD69 has quit IRC | 21:40 | |
| Estel_ | i.e. if apocalypsde happen, we don't need to wait for monday to pester X-Fade | 21:40 |
| ivgalvez | ok, so why don't we start by reviewing current chanop naming scheme and if any of you have a proposal on how to improve it let's discuss it by email? | 21:40 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, good idea. | 21:40 |
| ivgalvez | with detailed explanations | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | I agree ob this, but I think we should also have emergency button | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | I'm confued Estel_.... Why do *We* need chanop? | 21:41 |
| ivgalvez | I mean, you know I'm a IRC newbie | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, account for use *only* in situations of emergency | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | i.e. spam floods | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | It has nothing to do with management of chanops. | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | abuse of privilleges | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | etc. | 21:41 |
| ivgalvez | then the same logic should be applied to TMO forums | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | as per current situation, we're screwed if something like bot attacki on TMO happen | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | it is. | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | TMO was paralyzed for week | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | No, we're not.... | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | until things like spam moderators emerged | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | in casxe of current chanop going crazy - which isn't so far from reality - or any spambotg attack | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | Right now there are at least 2 active chanops on the channel, and 2 in an away status. | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | we're literally screwed. | 21:43 |
| Estel_ | outy of 10? | 21:43 |
| Estel_ | doesn't sound very safe. | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | How many would make you feel safe? | 21:43 |
| ivgalvez | I don't see the need to mix chanops (or moderators) with Council memberships | 21:43 |
| ivgalvez | but any one can propose himself todo more than one role | 21:43 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, account shared between Community representatives would make me feel very safe ;) | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | Need I remind you, even if YOU had chanop, had something happened here this week (which it did btw), YOU were not here... | 21:43 |
| ivgalvez | dor example I'm also a Tester | 21:43 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, not me. | 21:44 |
| Stskeeps | ((can community comment too in a council meeting?)) | 21:44 |
| Estel_ | could You jump off from my back, please? | 21:44 |
| ivgalvez | of course | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | I saw it, pinged a chanop, and 20 seconds later it was handled.... | 21:44 |
| Estel_ | do You expect any week without any Councilor? | 21:44 |
| Estel_ | Ivgalvez, emergency account != regular chanop | 21:44 |
| Estel_ | it shouldn't be used to sit there and glow with authority ;) | 21:44 |
| Estel_ | it's like emergency account | 21:44 |
| ivgalvez | Stskeeps, please comment | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | I dislike a "community" account. It open the posability for abuse. | 21:45 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, of course. | 21:45 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, meetings are open for Community | 21:45 |
| * Woody14619 listens for StsKeeps. | 21:45 | |
| Estel_ | that's why we're in maemo-meeting channel ;) | 21:45 |
| ivgalvez | I don't see the need of community account if there is enough number of people willing to cooperate in the different areas | 21:45 |
| Stskeeps | ok, simple rule of irc chan ops is never giving it to those that ask for it, but instead regulate it with those who seem sane and around. having a shared nickname is ripe for abuse. if there's observations that more people need ops, you talk to the people who can add it | 21:45 |
| Stskeeps | i've been doing irc and the worst irc network politics you've ever seen, so speaking from observation and practice | 21:46 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, Woody14619 also arised this ripe for abuse thing. | 21:46 |
| Estel_ | It seems reasonable. | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | if there's a need for extra ops, just talk to xfade about pointing out some people who are active and aren't insane. i used to op in #maemo but the atmosphere turned immensely toxic. | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | so that's why i no longer visit or op there | 21:46 |
| Estel_ | all right, so what You would propose for *transparent*management over channels belonging to Community? | 21:47 |
| ivgalvez | guys, I have to go in a minute | 21:47 |
| ivgalvez | anyone knows is the claim of "it's not possible to promote a package depending on non-free packages" is even correct. | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, correct | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | 'm sure he can put it into normal repos | 21:47 |
| Stskeeps | i don't personally feel #maemo ever was a maemo.org thing, it preceded that, but that's just my own feeling | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | and include license | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | stating it'sw closed etc | 21:47 |
| Stskeeps | (end of statement) | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, current status is that it is Community thing | 21:47 |
| Woody14619 | I will talk to X-Fade about it via e-mail ivgalvez... And see if we can change it if that is true. | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | we're discussing how to make chanop management there more transparent for Community | 21:48 |
| Estel_ | as for now, 7 out of 10 chanops are inactive | 21:48 |
| ivgalvez | thanks Woody14619, I can also do it myself if you're busy | 21:48 |
| Estel_ | or not related to Maemo anymore | 21:48 |
| Woody14619 | ivgalvez, let's both ask... :) Worst case he gets asked twice. ;) | 21:48 |
| ivgalvez | K. thanks sorry I have to leave | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | see ya ivgalvez! | 21:49 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 21:49 | |
| Woody14619 | Estel_, several of the ops are probably asleep.... | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | Least we forget, IRC is 24/7. | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, not related. Keeping way it is now is a no-go. | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | For you... and only you. | 21:50 |
| Estel_ | it seems that it'sx not the case. | 21:50 |
| Estel_ | Instead, You're only one who try to pivot unto keeping it out of Community supervising. | 21:50 |
| Estel_ | for unknown reasons. | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | No... | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | I have no problems with us *supervising* it. | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps is right - sane people that are often on IRC should be chanops | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | not colleagues of current chanops. | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | define supervising, then. | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | Council putting a poilicy into effect is well within the purview. | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | OK, here we agree. | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | so what this policy should look like? | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | s/what/how/ | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | Changing how chanops are put in, requirments, etc. That is something we can do. | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | aye. so, how in Your opinion, it should look like? | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | US, and Council, having chanops, accomplishes *nothing*. | 21:52 |
| Estel_ | agreed. | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | SO WHY ARE YOU PUSHING FOR THAT? | 21:52 |
| Estel_ | so lets just move to policies | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | No.. | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | I want to talk about this and resolve it. | 21:52 |
| Estel_ | as usual, You're not understanding what I proposed ;) | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | Why do you feel the need for Council to have chanop? | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | it was proposition for emergency, but it seems that it was wrong idea. | 21:53 |
| NielDK | what good are policies, if we dont have some authority on them beeing followed? | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | both You and Stskeeps pointed out security risk | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | You've propsed it for individuals, or for a Council based accoutn now at least 4 times. | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | and I tend to agree. | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | NielDK, current proposition is, as I understand it | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | is that we setup policies | 21:54 |
| Woody14619 | Nieldk, having chanop does not give us authority to enforce policy either... | 21:54 |
| Estel_ | then, X-Fade, asked by us, promote chanops or degrade old ones | 21:54 |
| Estel_ | everything based on policies defined | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | makes sense | 21:54 |
| Woody14619 | I agree that right now we have a rather informal policy. | 21:54 |
| NielDK | its a best start | 21:54 |
| Estel_ | ok | 21:55 |
| Estel_ | so we have agreement here :) | 21:55 |
| Woody14619 | I would like to see us form a policy (if anything). | 21:55 |
| NielDK | agreed | 21:55 |
| Estel_ | so, again, I'm asking about opoinions how those polcies should look | 21:55 |
| Woody14619 | That would be far more effective then asking for chanop or founder status. | 21:55 |
| Estel_ | = how to make them sane, transparent, yet feasible. | 21:55 |
| Woody14619 | For that, I think we need input from people experience in IRC (like Stskeeps and others) | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | My personal experience would lead to at least one steadfast rule: | 21:56 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, as we won't have chances to listen Your input if we continue to talk about it using council@maemo.org mailing list... | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | you can probably copy other polcies | 21:56 |
| Estel_ | Whats Your view on this? | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | go look at other channels and see what they do, copy that, simple.. | 21:56 |
| Estel_ | i.e. how You would construct such sane policies, in principle? | 21:56 |
| Estel_ | I see. | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | Ops will not be grated to any person who has been on the IRC system or the #maemo channel heirarchy for less than 6 months. | 21:56 |
| Estel_ | define "being". | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | it really doesn't have to be difficult, tbh :P | 21:57 |
| Estel_ | mean define "been" | 21:57 |
| Estel_ | logged in once year ago, then absent? :P | 21:57 |
| Estel_ | I agree with Stskeeps, overcomplication isn't good | 21:57 |
| Woody14619 | Been means having a qualified account, and being active at least 8 hours per week for that timeframe. | 21:57 |
| NielDK | now thats not transperent is it ? | 21:58 |
| Estel_ | who is going to count that? 0_o including vacations etc | 21:58 |
| Woody14619 | How is that not transparent NielDk? | 21:58 |
| Woody14619 | Bots. | 21:58 |
| Estel_ | of course it isn't, IMO | 21:58 |
| Woody14619 | Bots do all that already.... | 21:58 |
| Estel_ | proxy bouncer | 21:58 |
| Estel_ | honestly - Councilors active on IRC could submit candidates, for review... | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | infobot will tell you all kinds of wonderful things about people, just ask it. Things like ~seen and the like. | 21:59 |
| Estel_ | if no valid protests | 21:59 |
| Estel_ | it's granted | 21:59 |
| Estel_ | if valid concerns, it's not. | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | Why would Council have any clue what's going on in IRC? | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | That's like having your janitor choose who your CEO is.... | 21:59 |
| Estel_ | because some of the Councilors read 100% of IRC from #maemo, #maemo-ssu etc? | 21:59 |
| Estel_ | including weekends? ;) | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | That's great... As do lots of people not on Council. | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | But lots of people on Council *dont* do that.... | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | yea, but we can't invite everyone to submit candidates. | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | so they dont submit candidates. | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | Being Council has no bearing on activity. | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | simple as that | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | We already do.... | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | I haven't said You're forced to submit someone. Lets use common sense. | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | The existing policy is that anyone (even someone not a chanop) and suggest someone be a chanop. | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, someone have to decide, at the end | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | And that decission is generally left to X-Fade, and the other chanops. | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | it shouldn't be association of simulatenous adoration, where existing chanops decide about new chanops (only) | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | nope. | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | In the same way a company hiring is based on the opinions of the person running the company and the managers at that company. | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | X-Fade, generally, agreed to make chanops and remove them | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | as per Council's requests. | 22:02 |
| Woody14619 | I've yet to hear that from X-Fade... | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | after all, we're elected to maikntain some responsibilities too, not only discuss hapilly. | 22:02 |
| Woody14619 | I think you are taking something he's said out of context, frankly. | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, see irc log from last meeting with him ;) | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | I'll gladly forward his mails clarifing it. | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | BTW, why You think he shouldnt like it, anyway? | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | it's Community respinsibility, and Council is elected to do some job too, not only discuss for months, about simple things. | 22:03 |
| Woody14619 | So... you've been mailing X-Fade about the Council proposal privately? | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | nope. | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | I've been mailing X-Fade as a chair, about what is *possible* | 22:04 |
| NielDK | i believe Woody stated why quite clearly in his mails | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | > <Estel_> I'll gladly forward his mails clarifing it. | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | Then explaint hat please? | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | then, forwarded proposition to Council via mailing list. | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | so, you HAVE been mailing X-Fade about this privately....AS CHAIR. | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | simple - I've asked him hpw we could resolve nominating chanops and removing inactive/qwrong ones. | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | He, as a sane person using common sense, replied... | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | Sigh. | 22:05 |
| Estel_ | that he will gladly do that, as soon as I'll send him any requests. | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | K... I'm really tired of this BS frankly. | 22:05 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, if You would read mailing loist, You would know that already, lol. | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | I'm not up for playing childish games. | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | ??? | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | REally? | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | I read the mailing list... | 22:06 |
| Woody14619 | Clearly... | 22:06 |
| Woody14619 | Moreso than you have this week. | 22:06 |
| Woody14619 | Please stop being an ass? | 22:06 |
| Woody14619 | Right... so.. next topic... | 22:07 |
| NielDK | FTR frankly I agree with Woody, as the chair you have the mandate to speak on councils behalf, not privately - | 22:07 |
| Woody14619 | I've taken the action item to talk to X-Fade about the promotion handler... | 22:08 |
| Woody14619 | As has Ivan... Whoever gets there first will e-mail. | 22:08 |
| Woody14619 | As for the IRC topic, the proposal has shifted at least 3 times now. | 22:08 |
| NielDK | can you and I agree on whom takes action? looks unprof and foolish honestly if two sends same mail | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | The original proposal (email from June 10, 2012) cited "I proposed to open possibility of being chanops for Councilors," | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | That proposal as since morphed into "taking control" and now to policy creation. | 22:10 |
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| NielDK | right | 22:10 |
| Woody14619 | While I like the latter, I would propose we move toward that goal vs others. | 22:10 |
| Woody14619 | NielDK, looks like it's just us now.. so. :P | 22:10 |
| NielDK | :p | 22:11 |
| Woody14619 | NielDK, while I would agree, good odds we will both next see X-Fade at the OBS meeting anyway. :) | 22:11 |
| NielDK | good then | 22:11 |
| NielDK | should I dig around for usefull policies then? | 22:12 |
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| Woody14619 | That would be a great thing to do, IMHO. :) | 22:13 |
| Estel_ | ouh | 22:13 |
| Estel_ | <Woody14619> I'm not up for playing childish games. | 22:13 |
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| *** Estel_ has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:13 | |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> frankly, You're overcomplicating simple and natural things. | 22:13 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> honestly, I don't see what's Your problem now. | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> as said already, and I though we all agree (both Councilors and Community as per Stskeeps ;) ) | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> we set up sane policy | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> agree on it. | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> then, we proceed, and contact X-Fade about granting permission or remove them. | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> he confirmed that it's all right. | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> he confirmed that it's all right. | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> as soon as we finally agree on those policies and start using them ;) | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> where here is, actually, point of conflict? | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> NielDK, any comments? | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> because either I'm missing something, or someone forget about "people mean well" :) | 22:14 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> it's a pity, that ivgalvez and SD69 had to depat earlier, as it would be great to, finally, settle this. | 22:15 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> I got strange feeling, that, for two weeks, we're over-discussing simple things, instead of focusing on actually *doing*. | 22:15 |
| Estel_ | sorry, got dc'ed | 22:15 |
| Estel_ | pasting multiline on X-Chat suxx | 22:15 |
| Woody14619 | The point of conflict is your continued push for chanops. That was what the proposed vote was about. | 22:15 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, please re-read. | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | If you've abandoned that position, then there is no longer a conflict. | 22:16 |
| Estel_ | nice. | 22:16 |
| Estel_ | as, lately, You seemed to be furious that I, as a chairp contacted X-Fade about possible solutions | 22:16 |
| Estel_ | which is, honestly, confusing for me. | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | Niel has taken the task of looking at other groups policies for promotion. | 22:16 |
| Estel_ | if You've abandoned it, there is no point of conflict now. | 22:17 |
| Estel_ | all right | 22:17 |
| Estel_ | sounds reasonable. | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | I am upset that you contiune to use your *position* in Council to do things privately without the concent of Council. | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | That point has been made clear multiple times now. | 22:17 |
| Estel_ | define privately. | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | no | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | Any sane person knows what privately meens. | 22:18 |
| Estel_ | Asking about possible solutions, then forwarding that to Council and asking for decisions looks like perfectly fit for chair position, IMO | 22:18 |
| NielDK | seems you, Estel_ actually understood this previousky | 22:18 |
| Estel_ | NielDK, any comments on this? i.e. do You feel that asking X-Fade if our ideas are possible and oki for him... | 22:18 |
| Estel_ | is private? 0_o? | 22:19 |
| Estel_ | last time I've checked, such formaglities were part of chair's job. | 22:19 |
| Woody14619 | I would agree, if not for the fact that several times your questions are both leading, misleading, and often misrepresent the will if Council as a whole. Substituting your own beliefs and feelings as those of the Council at large. | 22:19 |
| Estel_ | would like to hear other Councilors feedback on this, if there is any problem | 22:19 |
| Estel_ | and, apparently, as per Woody's problem creation, there is one. | 22:20 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, examples? | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | I think that feedback was quite clear already, in the thread where this was discussed after your mailing on the community mailing list, and the incident with Maxim. | 22:20 |
| Estel_ | nope. | 22:20 |
| NielDK | i agree with Woody, you cant act on councils behalf on issues we didnt discuss | 22:20 |
| Estel_ | NielDK, all right - lets add this as agenda point 5 | 22:21 |
| Estel_ | then, as SD69 and ivgalvez are away... | 22:21 |
| Estel_ | wer will forward question to them vfia mail. | 22:21 |
| Estel_ | if they also think contacting X-Fade about formal possibilities - DURING, not before our discussion about it- is wrong | 22:21 |
| Estel_ | I'll gladly pass chair position to other Couincilor. | 22:22 |
| NielDK | then lets add that to next meeting as a point | 22:22 |
| Estel_ | agree. | 22:23 |
| Woody14619 | K... so in case Estel_ missed it: | 22:23 |
| Estel_ | any other propositions for agenda points today? | 22:23 |
| Woody14619 | I've taken the action item to talk to X-Fade about the promotion handler... | 22:23 |
| Woody14619 | As has Ivan... Whoever gets there first will e-mail. | 22:24 |
| Estel_ | about non-free? | 22:24 |
| Woody14619 | yup. Ivan's topic. | 22:24 |
| Estel_ | dully noted. | 22:24 |
| Woody14619 | It seems like something that should be easy to handle.... | 22:24 |
| Estel_ | I suspect it might be impossible before COBS | 22:24 |
| Estel_ | but, let's check that. | 22:24 |
| Woody14619 | It may turn out to be the case, but can't hurt to ask. | 22:24 |
| Woody14619 | Worst case, since the author is active, he can get it to the point of promotion and X-Fade can promote it by hand for now. | 22:25 |
| Woody14619 | This isn't likely a long-term maintainance project from the looks of it anyway. | 22:25 |
| Estel_ | non-free components are unpromoteable by design | 22:25 |
| Estel_ | anyway, X-Fade will answer it for sure. | 22:26 |
| Estel_ | any other points for today? | 22:26 |
| Woody14619 | I think thats it? | 22:26 |
| NielDK | no | 22:26 |
| Estel_ | Woody14619, You will handle minutes as usual? | 22:26 |
| Woody14619 | I see no Pali here today. :) | 22:26 |
| Estel_ | :) | 22:26 |
| Woody14619 | Yup... will do. | 22:27 |
| Woody14619 | I will try to get them out today so everyone has the weekend to review. | 22:27 |
| Estel_ | ah, as usual, I haven't got ivgalvez's and SD69 keynotes for inaugurating blog entry | 22:27 |
| Woody14619 | Oh.. right.. | 22:27 |
| Estel_ | I think we can skip it, after all, it's almost month now :P | 22:27 |
| Woody14619 | we really should review ais from the last meeting, but then we only had like 3? | 22:27 |
| Estel_ | but, it's quite possible, that new chair will have to decide. | 22:27 |
| Estel_ | yes. | 22:27 |
| Woody14619 | K. | 22:28 |
| Woody14619 | And 2 of those were long term... so still on-going (notes & project advacement) | 22:28 |
| * Estel_ nods | 22:28 | |
| Woody14619 | K.. I'll do minutes. See some of you Monday at OBS, or Tues for CA review. | 22:29 |
| Estel_ | so, I'm closing today's meeting :) thanks for participation. | 22:29 |
| NielDK | thanks all | 22:29 |
| Woody14619 | #end Mameo Council meeting | 22:29 |
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