IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Thursday, 2012-01-12

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mistercgood day everyone14:26
SD69hello14:28
misterci can't seem to find an agenda for this Concil meeting; is there one?14:36
SD69there is a partial one - I'll post it on t.m.o.14:36
mistercthank you!14:37
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SD69partial agenda is at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1149464#post114946414:56
SD69misterg__: do you have a particular interest?14:56
misterc__no; general interest in N900 / Maemo and wondering about its future14:57
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SD69misterc__: do you have a particular interest?14:58
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SD69hello matti15:00
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SD69hi Niels15:00
X-Fadehi15:01
SD69Jeremiah is not here yet - but let's start anyway15:02
SD69partial agenda is at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1149464#post114946415:02
mairashi there15:03
merlin1991I'd like to add a 6th point to agenda, co-maintainership for the cssu-repo15:03
SD69merlin1991: OK, let's hope we can add that at the end15:04
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SD69matti: do you have a heads-up about the repo key issue?15:05
SD69 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1252215:05
povbotBug 12522: Problem with keys of Nokia15:05
SD69momcilo: hi15:06
mairasSD69, Stefano is aware of the issue but he's travelling so it'll take a couple of days for him to fix it.15:06
momcilohi, I will try to catch up15:06
SD69Are there any plans in place wrt N900 Ovi generally15:07
SD69?15:08
mairasNot any I know of. N900 is an End-of-Life product, so everything is as-is15:08
SD69someday there will be no trace of N90015:09
SD69but as of today do we have an estimate of what day that will be?15:09
mairasI have no information on that.15:10
SD69OK15:10
mairasOvi Store is a separate entity.15:10
X-FadeOvi is Nokia's commercial offering. When a product goes eol it makes sense to keep it around for X amount of time after that, who knows :)15:11
SD69OK15:11
misterc__there is the OVI application as a default application on any NOKIA device; doesn't it make (indeed) sense the let the applications stand as long as there (seem to be) users ( # of downloads every month?)15:12
SD69what is contact info for Stefano on repo key?15:12
mairasSD69, I can relay the messages.15:13
mairasand he has the bug link, so he can reply there if he chooses.15:14
SD69thank you - without a reply, we don't know status15:15
SD69with no info, there is speculation that Nokia is not interested in fixing it15:15
mairasSD69, we can update the bug when it's fixed. but trust me, it's being worked on.15:16
SD69that's good15:16
SD692nd topic: support for maemo infrastructure15:16
X-FadeFor point A. I talked to merlin about what needs to be done. Basically the package and all it's entries are seriously messed up.15:18
X-FadeWhat needs to be done is remove it from the repository completely, remove all entries from database manually.15:18
X-FadeAnd then import the lastest version into the repository again.15:18
SD69who should do that - merlin?15:19
X-FadeNo, I will do that. We need to pick a date when we do this though.15:19
X-FadeAs the package and everything related will be completely gone for better part of a day.15:20
momciloX-Fade, you meen the latest stable that got to users, or the latest latest?15:20
X-FadeIt takes a while to regenerate the repos.15:20
X-FadeNo, this is all server side.15:20
X-FadeAnd then add some caching network delays on top of that.15:21
X-FadeBut then again, the package is quite broken as is.15:21
SD69X-Fade: the package maintainer feels otherwise15:22
X-FadeSD69: Not the package, I mean the state of the dependencies etc.15:22
X-FadeWe need to bring those back to a consistent state.15:22
SD69OK, but the problem is how long this is taking to fix15:24
X-FadeRealistically this will take me a day, just to fix things surrounding this package.15:24
SD69I don't know your schedule15:24
X-FadeSo it is not easy to schedule such an effort.15:25
X-FadeCurrently looking at picking the 23rd or 24th of this month, to take a stab at it.15:26
SD69I think that will be good, if the date slips, please let us know15:26
X-FadeBtw, I have suggested that he could fix the issue himself by renaming the package.15:27
SD69I know15:27
X-FadeSo I will put the effort in this time to fix it, but let's hope it doesn't get messed up again.15:27
SD69I really hope ;-)15:28
SD69For point B.  let me preface by saying there is the impression that the community suffers because there is currently not enough bodies maintaining maemo.org15:30
X-FadeWhat do you think needs more maintaining?15:30
SD69package promotion15:31
X-FadeWhy don't you just add more supertesters to the group in garage then?15:31
SD69and this is because package maintainers go awol, etc.15:31
SD69how do we do that - I mean give you names or what?15:32
X-FadeJust add them to the group yourself?15:32
X-FadeI thought you were admin in that project?15:33
X-FadeOr did achipa manage this?15:33
SD69it was not me15:33
X-Fadehttps://garage.maemo.org/projects/qatesters/15:33
SD69I admit the handoff of community tasks has not always been smooth15:33
X-FadeChanging the people there will give them rights. 3 votes from supertesters cause promotion.15:34
SD69and do you a suggestion for applying new maintainer when the previous one goes awol?15:35
X-FadeI'd say write to -developers, ask for comments and if there is no response or no objections, I can change it?15:35
X-FadeAt least we need to do this in public.15:36
SD69of course in public15:36
SD69but you seem to have busy schedule...15:37
X-FadeI mean to give the original maintainer some place to respond.15:37
X-FadeI just need a clear list every X amount of time.15:37
X-FadeI can't go through random posts on forums etc.15:38
X-FadeSo if you assign someone to keep a list etc, I'm fine with that.15:38
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misterc__X-Fade, what is X amount of time & how much time would you then have?15:39
X-FadeI'd say process changes once a month or so?15:39
SD69I have busy schedule too...15:39
mairassorry, proxy disconnects randomly :-(15:39
X-FadeLet's try to see if you can organize that and eval afterwards?15:39
SD69I'd rather give someone else some admin rights than go through a list - it could become a bottleneck in practice15:40
X-FadeDoing adhoc changes to the repo is also not what you want.15:41
misterc__once a month seems okay. how much time can you muster for that? as much as needed?15:41
X-FadeYou need people to step up and say: "Hey, that doesn't look right"15:41
X-FadeDepending on the amount of packages, it is not that much work.15:42
X-FadePeople just need to apply to be maintainer themselves.15:42
X-FadeAnd we then need a list of packages where we need to approve the change.15:42
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misterc__and after that, those ppl can do all needed tasks themselves (promoting packages aso.)?15:43
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X-FadeYes.15:43
X-FadeJust like you add an extra maintainer to your own package.15:44
SD69I think we can try it15:44
SD69Agenda 3: clarification of "official" vs. "unofficial" support in bugzilla and other parts15:45
SD69so Andre took the lead on bugzilla15:46
SD69are there other parts, where we need to distinguish between official and unofficial (community)?15:46
X-FadeCan you elaborate on that?15:47
andre__SD69: just to clarify, I'm doing maemo.org Bugzilla stuff now in my freetime, So I can't look into bigger issues such as porting to newer versions which might become a problem as 3.4 will be unmaintained soon. :-/15:47
mairasI don't quite understand the question. As for N900, it's eol, so pretty much everything is unofficial.15:47
SD69it's not apparent to someone visiting maemo.org for the first time15:48
X-FadeSD69: There aren't that many new people who just bought a N900 either.15:49
SD69X-Fade: and (stray) N9 buyers too15:49
SD69andre: 3.4?15:50
andre__Bugzilla version15:50
momciloIs it feasible to move to 4.x?15:51
andre__I wonder how to interpret "feasible" :)15:52
misterc__do you need admin rights (root?) on the server?15:52
andre__what I do know is that Bugzilla version 3.4 soon will reach EOL upstream and won't get any security updates anymore15:53
andre__I won't try to update it, too big of a task15:53
momciloRoughly, how much effort does it require to upgrade bugzilla at maemo.org?15:53
andre__(plus I wonder if Ferenc is still around that I could ping to apply security updates - I've somehow lost overview who's still around in maemo.org)15:53
momciloandre__, nobody asked you to do it, I just wanted to know about the size of the problem15:54
X-Fadeyeah, ferenc is around.15:54
andre__ah good15:54
andre__momcilo, depends on the structural changes between these versions. last upgrade from 2.x to 3.4 was mostly done by amigadave, guenther and ferenc so I can't really guestimate15:54
momciloandre__, :) thanks15:54
andre__np :)15:55
misterc__there is a 3.6 version; could that minimize the effort & gain us some time?15:55
X-FadeWe can look at that, see how much work it is to do the upgrade, change the custom things we have.15:57
andre__we can probably even drop quite some custom things, e.g. using RESOLVED MOVED for Brainstorm, as that's dead15:57
andre__I should probably ask the other GNOME Bugzilla admins, as there are also plans to upgrade from 3.4 to 4.215:58
X-FadeOk, well, let's try to find out how much work it is and then decide?15:58
andre__+115:59
SD69let's move on so we can finish more or less on time15:59
X-FadeWell it has been an hour already, so that will be hard.15:59
SD69Agenda 4:  harmattan15:59
SD69marias: you had proposal on this16:00
SD69and then I want to commet on appsformeego16:01
SD69*comment16:01
SD69mairas: ?16:01
mairasSD69, we might start to promote maemo.org as the backup for meego.com as the latter will be going away pretty soon.16:01
mairasbut that's pretty much it. harmattan quite naturally falls into the scope of maemo.org.16:02
misterc__is that such a good idea if we don't know how long Maemo.org will (still) be available?16:02
X-Fademeego.com will be far less.16:02
mairasmisterc__, at least maemo.org is going to stay around longer.16:03
X-FadeRealistically we need to move everything away from meego.com this quarter.16:03
SD69well, I don't know that meego's problems are necessarily maemo's problems16:03
mairasand with that move (and with apps.formeego.org using maemo.org facilities in the future) I don't see maemo.org being shut down any time soon. but that's not a promise.16:03
SD69the only overlap I see is harmattan16:04
X-FadeWell, we only intend to move that part :)16:04
SD69well, at this point I will say you should ask Maemo council16:05
mairasSD69, it's not in the council's mandate to limit the scope of maemo.org.16:05
X-FadeWhat are the objections?16:05
X-FadeAny issues you see?16:05
X-FadeIt is all the same people running the same things :)16:05
X-FadeI manage servers on both ends, reggie mananges both forums.16:06
X-FadeHarmattan has maemo all over.16:06
SD69the most important resources are the devs16:07
SD69and yes it is council's mandate to represent the community16:07
X-FadeDevs for what?16:07
misterc__don't the devs need servers & all?16:08
SD69not mairas, but Nokia promised to hand over control to the community16:08
mairashuh?16:09
misterc__define "control" pls16:09
mairasdefine "promised" and "hand over", pls16:09
SD69bringing in harmattan is a big change16:09
X-FadeNo it is not?16:10
mairasno, it's not.16:10
X-FadeEverything harmattan from nokia's side already lives on the same servers as maemo.org?16:10
mairasN9 is the next device in the same continuum.16:10
X-FadeJust because marketing put a meego sticker on top if it, doesn't mean it is very different :)16:11
X-FadeAnd as said before, funding is directed towards harmattan. If you embrace, you can benefit from it.16:11
misterc__+116:12
SD69X-Fade: I may embrace it, but I am reluctant to let it be imposed on a community that I represent that may not want it16:12
X-FadeSD69: The community should really be the same.16:12
X-FadeSD69: There is no difference?16:13
misterc__i  don't copy that, but i think that if it improves our futur perspective, it is worth considering & should gain acceptance16:13
mairasSD69, I haven't seen any signs that the community wouldn't accept it. the most active discussions on t.m.o are already about the N9...16:14
X-FadeIf you look at accounts then 80% or so overlaps.16:14
X-FadeIf you look at apps for n900 and n9, you see the exact same developers.16:14
SD69mairas: I will go back to the councils of Jaffa and Samoff - I believe they said Nokia handed over to the community16:14
SD69mairas: please talk to council as representing community and we will talk to you as representing Nokia16:16
misterc__in public?16:16
mairasand anyway. maemo.org is inclusive in nature, and while the council might act as a representation organ (although the current council being self-elected, you might question even that), that does not give the council power to exclude people/projects/hardware from maemo.org as a whole.16:17
X-FadeThem vs us is never a productive thing, really.16:17
mairasX-Fade, true.16:18
momciloSD69, X-Fade, do we have any feedback from people working on harmattan?16:18
X-FadeEspecially when they are in fact, the same.16:18
SD69we're not excluding, I am noting that this was apparently decided without any discussion with council16:18
misterc__i may have missed something here, but wasn't there a discussion on TMO lately that there was only one member of the council (SD69 ?) is still actively around?16:19
X-FadeSD69: Apparently you see this as a burdon or a bad thing?16:19
SD69momcilo is here16:19
misterc__o, sorry, wasn't aware of his membershipt :-o16:19
misterc__so, the council is here in toto?16:19
momcilomisterc__, it is true I was awol for the last two months16:20
SD69I see this as plans being made for maemo.org w/o involving council16:20
X-FadeCan we wrap this up in 10 minutes or so? I really need to go.16:20
momcilomisterc__, SD69, I don't see we can resolve this now, instread I suggest a meeting next week?16:21
misterc__seems reasonable16:21
SD69momcilo: I think so.16:21
X-FadeI'm travelling next week, but the week after that should be ok.16:22
X-FadeSD69: Can you come up with a pros and cons list of some sort?16:22
X-FadeSD69: Try to get clear why you think this one community isn't one?16:22
SD69X-Fade: it's a proposal not by council, can you tell us what you want to do?16:23
mairasyes, I would like that as well.16:23
SD69We may agree with you, but I think you should approach us directly16:24
X-FadeSD69: From a server standpoint, we're just moving some services over?16:24
X-FadeSD69: Servers which Nokia pays for.16:24
SD69yes, and we will consider the financial benefits as well16:25
mairasand from the authentication standpoint, the OBS servers will be changed to use maemo.org as the authentication backend instead of meego.com16:25
X-FadeNote that we did not just change the website or something like that?16:25
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SD69I promise you I will consider it, and will put it to the community for public discussion16:27
mairashaven't seen much traffic on maemo-community lately. I thought that was the canonical place for discussion...16:27
misterc__TMO?16:28
mairasno, the mailing list.16:28
misterc__o, sorry: need to check that out, i guess16:28
SD69this was never suggested anywhere on maemo.org16:29
SD69although, for the record, mairas did make a suggestion of sorts in an email to council16:29
SD69I thought we would discuss it again in due course, but then we saw it described elsewhere16:30
SD69anyway, sorry to end on a bad note16:31
SD69but I hope we will return to the discussion16:31
momcilo5?16:31
momcilo6?16:31
SD69community mailing list is fine16:31
SD69we have to postpone 5 and 6 I think16:32
SD69regards everyone16:33
momcilofine by me.16:33
momcilothanks16:33
misterc__thank you !16:33
X-FadeWill you mail for a new date?16:34
momciloIs it possible to determine date/time of the next meeting during this week?16:34
momciloI've got to go now, I hope we will determine the date/time for the next meeting before X-fade's trip16:37
X-FadeI'll be reading email, no problem.16:37
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