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| mairas | hi, folks | 15:51 |
|---|---|---|
| bergie | hi | 15:52 |
| NIN101 | hi | 15:52 |
| zehjotkah | hi there | 15:52 |
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| vetsin_ | hi | 15:55 |
| zehjotkah | I've only about half an hour from now on... | 15:56 |
| Stskeeps | 15:00 UTC, isn't that in like two hours? | 15:57 |
| thp | Stskeeps: the topic is about 2011-10-06 ; | 15:57 |
| Stskeeps | ooh. | 15:58 |
| SD69 | hello | 15:58 |
| qwazix_ | isn't it utc 13.00 the meeting? | 15:59 |
| SD69 | should we start? | 15:59 |
| qwazix_ | ok I saw that sorry | 16:00 |
| zehjotkah | yes, let's start | 16:00 |
| SD69 | we are missing the chair...? | 16:01 |
| SD69 | but let's start | 16:01 |
| mairas | yes, back at the keyboard | 16:01 |
| SD69 | since zehjotkah has to leave early let's start with coding competition voting | 16:01 |
| mairas | momcilo is not around? | 16:01 |
| zehjotkah | hmmm, seems momcilo has left some minutes ago | 16:02 |
| SD69 | momcilo was planning to be here - maybe something happened at work | 16:02 |
| Sicelo | or his network | 16:03 |
| zehjotkah | (sorry for typing slow, I'm on my N950) | 16:03 |
| zehjotkah | I'' give an update of the current state of the voting | 16:03 |
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| zehjotkah | a dev i know agreed to set up the voting process on the meetmeego.org servers if it won't be done on maemo.org servers | 16:04 |
| zehjotkah | he will have time on next saturday | 16:05 |
| momcilo | sorry for being late, my laptop got frozen 10 minutes ago | 16:05 |
| zehjotkah | i'd still prefer the voting being hosted on maemo.org servers | 16:05 |
| zehjotkah | 1. because it's more official | 16:05 |
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| zehjotkah | 2. because we alreday had votings on the maemo.org server | 16:05 |
| bergie | zetjotkah: we can do it on maemo.org, but so far all voting functionality has been run by Dave Neary | 16:06 |
| bergie | ...using the GNOME voting software that is not integrated with rest of maemo.org | 16:06 |
| mairas | ... and he told he wouldn't be doing that any longer. | 16:06 |
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| zehjotkah | Dave Neary gave me the link to the wiki how to set up the process | 16:07 |
| zehjotkah | i have the user database | 16:07 |
| zehjotkah | we have the info files for the voting | 16:07 |
| zehjotkah | but it's over my skill to set up the actual process | 16:07 |
| zehjotkah | also i don't have access to the system | 16:08 |
| bergie | we can do that | 16:08 |
| zehjotkah | awesome :) | 16:08 |
| zehjotkah | i think i still have your email address | 16:08 |
| zehjotkah | then i'll send you all the required info, okay? | 16:09 |
| bergie | zetjotkah: send to support@nemein.com | 16:09 |
| zehjotkah | okay | 16:09 |
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| momcilo | Sorry for interrupting, we wanted to record the meeting using meetbot, it looks like topic #7 is already covered? | 16:09 |
| zehjotkah | thanks | 16:09 |
| SD69 | momcilo: yes, zehjotkah has to leave early so we jumped ahead | 16:10 |
| bergie | again, regarding this voting stuff... please send any actions you want us to take to support... not TMO private messages, tweets or such | 16:10 |
| zehjotkah | okay | 16:10 |
| momcilo | Ok, I would appriciate of someone can send me the log for the last ten minutes, so I can replay i to meetbot later | 16:11 |
| momcilo | #startmeeting | 16:11 |
| maemobot | Meeting started Thu Oct 13 13:11:13 2011 UTC. The chair is momcilo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:11 |
| maemobot | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 16:11 |
| Sicelo | i can momcilo | 16:11 |
| momcilo | thanks | 16:11 |
| SD69 | bergie: will X-Fade be the actual person or maybe someone else? | 16:11 |
| bergie | SD69: depends on how busy X-Fade is. Probably someone from our support team | 16:12 |
| SD69 | does not matter - just want to avoid confusion and get this done quickly | 16:12 |
| mairas | X-Fade will be around a bit later - he had a slightly overlapping appoitment. | 16:13 |
| bergie | yep. So, please talk to support. Which reminds, we probably need to know who is authorized to request stuff from them | 16:13 |
| bergie | besides mairas, that is :-) | 16:13 |
| SD69 | bergie: at this point, only the 3 council members | 16:13 |
| SD69 | + mairas :-) | 16:14 |
| mairas | bergie, uuh. "with great power ..." | 16:14 |
| bergie | mairas: certainly ;-) | 16:14 |
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| momcilo | Let me know when "MeeGo coding competition team contest voting" is concluded so we can set a topic | 16:15 |
| zehjotkah | i think we're done, right? | 16:15 |
| bergie | yep | 16:16 |
| momcilo | #topic maemo.org, future, DNS, infrastructure... | 16:16 |
| bergie | zetjotkah sends the voting data to our support, support sets it up | 16:16 |
| zehjotkah | and i'll cc texrat from the council so you know the council is okay with that | 16:16 |
| bergie | thx | 16:17 |
| momcilo | #topic MeeGo coding competition team contest voting | 16:17 |
| SD69 | zehjotkah: texrat is no longer on council; me and momcilo are new council and are OK with it | 16:17 |
| momcilo | #action zetjotkah sends the voting data to our support, support sets it up | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: where's jeremiah? | 16:17 |
| SD69 | + jeremiah :-) | 16:18 |
| momcilo | #action zetjotkah will cc texrat from the council so you know the council is okay with that | 16:18 |
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| bergie | #info any admin tasks needed for maemo.org should be sent to Nemein's support by Council, not via tweets, TMO priv msgs, or whatever | 16:18 |
| SD69 | but not here today... | 16:18 |
| momcilo | ok, lets move to the first topic | 16:18 |
| momcilo | #topic maemo.org, future, DNS, infrastructure... | 16:18 |
| SD69 | marias: "I don't see why Nokia wouldn't be prepared to basically indefinitely maintain the DNS for every other hostname that the community chooses to use" | 16:20 |
| SD69 | can you expand on the support for other hostnames?s | 16:20 |
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| mairas | that's what I wrote. :-) the DNS hosting is trivial and I don't see why that couldn't be done well to the future | 16:21 |
| mairas | and yes, as long as it's relevant to maemo.org activities, there can be other hostnames as well. | 16:22 |
| SD69 | could the community be supported like it is now with Nemein if it set up camp at its own domain, say... www.maemo.net? | 16:23 |
| mairas | could you elaborate on that? I don't quite see the motives on doing that. | 16:24 |
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| reggie_ | SD69: can you clarify why a new domain is being considered at all? | 16:24 |
| mairas | *motivations | 16:24 |
| SD69 | so that if some future Nokia CEO in all his infinite wisdom decreed to shut down maemo.org, the community would not be affected | 16:25 |
| bergie | SD69: all community resources run on Nokia-funded servers as well | 16:25 |
| bergie | so if theoretically Nokia decided to pull the plug, we would need to migrate both services and domain | 16:25 |
| bergie | I don't see a benefit in doing any hasty maneuvers about the domain now | 16:26 |
| bergie | the community does have some domains managed outside of Nokia (or LF)... there is formeego.org, and the mer domains | 16:26 |
| SD69 | those are different communities at the moment | 16:27 |
| bergie | from my point of view, those would be reasonable fallbacks, should maemo.org go out | 16:27 |
| mairas | SD69, can I actually go a bit into the community thing... | 16:27 |
| mairas | ? | 16:27 |
| SD69 | marias: of course | 16:28 |
| mairas | namely, the meego community is now a big question mark. | 16:28 |
| mairas | and meego.com was the place where the N9 community was supposed to live. | 16:28 |
| qwazix_ | Is there truly a need for so many different communities? | 16:29 |
| mairas | now, we haven't heard anything from LF or Intel regarding the future of MeeGo facilities. | 16:29 |
| mairas | qwazix_, a good point. :-) | 16:29 |
| Stskeeps | actually, it wasn't my impression that the n9 user community was supposed to be on meego.com, possibly developer to some extent | 16:30 |
| SD69 | qwazix: no, but how do we stop them from popping up? | 16:30 |
| mairas | Stskeeps, well, both. | 16:30 |
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| reggie_ | mairas: so meego/harmattan (N9/N950) official community will fall back to maemo.org? | 16:30 |
| bergie | Stskeeps: that was why apps was being built in meego.com originally | 16:30 |
| ysss | good day everyone | 16:30 |
| qwazix_ | by trying to be unifying and catering for all those who belong to each one of them | 16:30 |
| mairas | developer is more directed to developer-oriented stuff, meego.com would've been the community | 16:31 |
| mairas | the same distinction was already there during the N900 times, but not as pronounced. | 16:31 |
| qwazix_ | after all the goals of maemo, meego and mer are about the same (that's why mer was shut off wasn't it?) | 16:31 |
| mairas | reggie_, well. we need a location for the community until the end of N9's lifetime. | 16:31 |
| Stskeeps | mairas: right, not the right moment to discuss but if you review what was actually said in the beginnings meego.com clearly didn't catered to end users (but enough about that now) | 16:32 |
| SD69 | we can't solve the fragmentation in this meeting... | 16:32 |
| mairas | reggie_, so, if meego.com ends up being a dead-end, what do you think? | 16:32 |
| mairas | would it be ok to the maemo community? | 16:32 |
| Stskeeps | either way, we do need a home for n9 - i thought nokia's offerings would do that | 16:32 |
| momcilo | I suggest we keep some of thise questions for topic 4 | 16:33 |
| momcilo | which can be expanded to communities: maemo, meego, mer, ... ;) | 16:33 |
| reggie_ | mairas: i would love it to me maemo.org but it's up to the community ;) but then again since Nokia is tied to maemo.org... ;) | 16:33 |
| X-Fade | Hi guys, sorry for being late. Had to visit a familymember in hospital. | 16:33 |
| mairas | momcilo, IMO, the N9 crowd is more related to maemo.org than to Mer. | 16:33 |
| momcilo | Mer is new | 16:34 |
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| Stskeeps | let's discuss Mer in the topic for it - not relevant to N9 as such | 16:34 |
| momcilo | I wanted simply to suggest we keep to the agenda, and add aditional topics later | 16:34 |
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| momcilo | I realize this topic can be of importance to mer, and meego communities, but lets focus on the maemo.org itself for the moment | 16:35 |
| thp | i'd also be for reggie_'s suggestion for it to be maemo.org (and it's easier for the community to get hold of it/influence decision than it is on meego.com probably?) | 16:36 |
| bergie | thp: +1 | 16:36 |
| qwazix_ | do we know how possible it is that nokia will donate the name to the community? | 16:36 |
| momcilo | thp, +1 | 16:37 |
| X-Fade | If anything we need to keep communities together, not fragment them. | 16:37 |
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| reggie_ | X-fade, +1 | 16:37 |
| momcilo | X-Fade, sure | 16:37 |
| Alfred | Guys, sorry to interrupt your conversation, but i really think maemo.org should be the home for n9 holders, since they have "maemo 6" onboard... | 16:38 |
| X-Fade | The reason why I would not worry about the name as such is that Nokia will need it for a very long time and all that time we should be safe. | 16:38 |
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| mairas | qwazix_, unfortunately, that'd be really unlikely. The Maemo trademark is tied to an existing Nokia product and stupidly enough, we use a small subdomain of maemo.org for our essential internal development activities. | 16:38 |
| X-Fade | Even in the event that Nokia kills off everything, we will still have access to all servers we have now. So we can easily migrate. | 16:38 |
| SD69 | qwazix: probably not, which is why we are talking about alternative solutions such as maemo.net | 16:39 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: who is we? | 16:39 |
| momcilo | SD69, valid point | 16:39 |
| bergie | mairas: would a Qt-style "community promise" be a possibility? | 16:39 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Several people, nemein, marais, I at least. | 16:39 |
| momcilo | bergie, You mean the famous qt agreement? | 16:40 |
| mairas | SD69, I don't know would there be trademark issues with maemo.net. | 16:40 |
| qwazix_ | So maybe the community fragmentation issue comes around again as the name is a means for stating our will to engulf the now orphan meego community and the newfound mer community | 16:40 |
| mairas | other than that, that could be a workable solution. | 16:40 |
| bergie | momcilo: exactly, http://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation.php | 16:40 |
| mairas | bergie, that's an interesting thought. | 16:40 |
| mairas | we could try to find out. will be a non-trivial effort, though. | 16:41 |
| bergie | I think that would remove the (mostly unnecessary) fears people have about maemo.org going away | 16:41 |
| X-Fade | There are contracts in place with the isp too, they will just be served out anyway. | 16:41 |
| mairas | bergie, yes. | 16:41 |
| SD69 | mairas: we can decide on one without tm issues, similar to apps.formeego.org, but that's useless if we can't migrate existing infra. | 16:42 |
| momcilo | what about files, repositories, binaries... | 16:42 |
| X-Fade | momcilo: Nokia has a legal obligation to host the binaries for 3 year.s | 16:42 |
| X-Fade | Ehm sources :) | 16:42 |
| momcilo | can we mirror them? | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | Sure you can. | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | If you have 200G of free space, you can. | 16:43 |
| MohammadAG | That doesn't include closed non-distributable nokia-binaries though | 16:43 |
| momcilo | Privately or publicly ? | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | momcilo: What MohammadAG says. | 16:44 |
| X-Fade | You can't distribute the closed binaries. But everything else you can. | 16:44 |
| momcilo | That is a serious issue | 16:44 |
| Shallimus | ...which will never go away? | 16:44 |
| X-Fade | Why? | 16:44 |
| momcilo | is it possible to ask for permission to host such files (firmwares, debs, etc)? | 16:45 |
| X-Fade | momcilo: No chance, really. | 16:45 |
| X-Fade | As nokia themselves don't own them. | 16:45 |
| X-Fade | Well the IPR in them. | 16:45 |
| qwazix_ | is it possible then that they agree to host them for more years? Not the whole infra. but only the closed binaries | 16:46 |
| MohammadAG | didn't we get word that maemo.org's servers will stay up for some time? | 16:46 |
| bergie | on the other infra than packages... Wiki should be trivial to move anywhere | 16:46 |
| momcilo | Is it possible for nokia to somehow negotiate the permissions on behalf of maemo.org | 16:46 |
| bergie | TMO is already running elsewhere | 16:46 |
| momcilo | MohammadAG, there are files on servers other than maemo.org, correct? | 16:46 |
| bergie | and Maemo Downloads could possibly be merged with the rest of the Apps.formeego effort | 16:46 |
| X-Fade | But again, not going anywhere for quite awhile. | 16:46 |
| mairas | MohammadAG, yes, we promised to maintain the servers until the end of 2012, based on the information we had at that time. | 16:46 |
| MohammadAG | momcilo, yes, but I don't see tablets-dev.nokia.com going anywhere | 16:47 |
| reggie_ | mairas: I guess Nokia can hand off all of maemo.org (not "Maemo") to the community after a certain time, if Nokia ends all support for it, correct? | 16:47 |
| X-Fade | momcilo: those are in fact on the same server :) | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | realistically, how many n900's are alive in three years.. | 16:47 |
| mairas | reggie_, absolutely. | 16:47 |
| momcilo | X-Fade, that can be changed in seconds ;) | 16:47 |
| MohammadAG | Stskeeps, +1 | 16:48 |
| mairas | that has been the plan all along. | 16:48 |
| MohammadAG | but still, you need to provide support for it | 16:48 |
| SD69 | stskeeps: who says maemo has to be limited to N900? | 16:48 |
| qwazix_ | three years from the launch is end 2012 isn't it? Pretty soon. | 16:48 |
| X-Fade | In mobile, you should not worry about what comes in x years where x > 1 :) | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: i know, but that was in terms of the 'worst' blobs | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: n900 has more 3rd party than n8x0/770 | 16:49 |
| SD69 | agreed | 16:49 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, I think n8x0 should not be dumped, even if not actively developed | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | right, anyway, not a problem anytime soon | 16:50 |
| bergie | yep, in my view this is a discussion we should have next summer :-) | 16:50 |
| momcilo | bergie, I think it would be to late than | 16:51 |
| X-Fade | And as mairas just suggested adding more to the existing maemo.org, the future can look differently. | 16:51 |
| SD69 | how do exit this agenda item? | 16:51 |
| SD69 | explore the Qt style solution? | 16:51 |
| mairas | X-Fade, definitely! | 16:51 |
| momcilo | We agree on : QT style solution? | 16:52 |
| X-Fade | As the N9 product adds new life. | 16:52 |
| reggie_ | i think that's basically the answer to the topic -- community needs to figure out how and where to host it when the time comes -- to be discussed as early as next year, or when support to Maemo/N9 ends as per Nokia. | 16:52 |
| momcilo | #agree maemo.org should follow QT style agreement solution | 16:52 |
| bergie | so, action for mairas to explore a Qt-style solution to maemo.org domain (and trademark?) ownership | 16:52 |
| mairas | about the Qt style solution - | 16:52 |
| bergie | momcilo: we can't just decide that, but mairas can check if Nokia is open to it | 16:53 |
| mairas | IIRC, the Qt promise is done between Nokia (originally Trolltech) and some KDE/Qt foundation? | 16:53 |
| momcilo | #action maclaver to explore qt-style solution to maemo.org domain (trademark?) ownership | 16:53 |
| momcilo | sorry | 16:53 |
| momcilo | #action marias to explore qt-style solution to maemo.org domain (trademark?) ownership | 16:53 |
| X-Fade | you can #undo | 16:53 |
| momcilo | #undo | 16:53 |
| maemobot | Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x875de8c> | 16:54 |
| momcilo | #undo | 16:54 |
| maemobot | Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x875d48c> | 16:54 |
| momcilo | #action marias to explore qt-style solution to maemo.org domain (trademark?) ownership | 16:54 |
| momcilo | thanks | 16:54 |
| maclaver | No problem, I can look into it too. I'll get Quim involved. | 16:54 |
| mairas | we'd need to get a legal entity to be the other counterpart in the contract | 16:54 |
| momcilo | mairas, who do you actually decide on things like that? legel department makes a decision or there is someone above who accapts the opinion and decides? | 16:55 |
| SD69 | mairas: council is working on that... it will take awhile | 16:55 |
| bergie | nonprofits are easy to set up, at least in Finland | 16:55 |
| mairas | SD69, fair enough, then! | 16:55 |
| bergie | cool | 16:55 |
| reggie_ | next topic? | 16:56 |
| momcilo | Ok, we can move to the next topic? | 16:56 |
| mairas | momcilo, at the moment, I have no idea. but I can begin asking around with maclaver and quim | 16:56 |
| SD69 | bergie: that has come up already - good to know you concur | 16:56 |
| momcilo | #topic talk.maemo.org and other tmo issues. | 16:56 |
| MohammadAG | we're still on the second topic? | 16:56 |
| momcilo | MohammadAG, the sequnece of topics was: 7, 1, 2 is next | 16:57 |
| MohammadAG | when's 6 coming up? | 16:57 |
| reggie_ | let me just make this short | 16:57 |
| reggie_ | TMO has been attacked by spammers recently | 16:57 |
| momcilo | 6 was suggested by jeremiah | 16:58 |
| momcilo | he is not here at the moment, you would like to push this forward? | 16:58 |
| reggie_ | new forum plugins have been installed that made it harder for automated spammers to register and post | 16:58 |
| MohammadAG | no rush, just wondering, let's go back on topic | 16:58 |
| reggie_ | some spammers still get it though | 16:58 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I don't think much can be done about the spammers other than what has already been done | 16:58 |
| momcilo | #info http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=78965 | 16:59 |
| Sazpaimon_ | reggie_, those are not automated bots | 16:59 |
| bergie | reggie_: on some forums we've put all messages containing links to moderation queue. That caught lots of spam :-) | 16:59 |
| reggie_ | Sazpaimon_, it's hard to believe but they are ;) | 16:59 |
| ysss | I deleted 3 spammer's accts earlier. they were not posting that quickly. | 17:00 |
| momcilo | reggie_, how did you establish that? | 17:00 |
| bergie | does the forum allow posting rate limiting for new members? | 17:00 |
| NIN101 | what about the spam on wiki.maemo.org? | 17:00 |
| reggie_ | bergie now if there are several links in posts, they go to the moderation queue, that is if the member has only less than 5 posts | 17:00 |
| momcilo | reggie_, I would like to take a look at the code which generated md5 hashes for the images? | 17:01 |
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| reggie_ | momcilo, sure, i can try to look for that | 17:01 |
| reggie_ | anyway | 17:01 |
| Sazpaimon_ | there are like 3 or 4 different registration spam catchers | 17:01 |
| momcilo | reggie_, just point me to the captcha project you've used | 17:01 |
| Sazpaimon_ | including picking an image out of a lineup, and answering a trivia question | 17:02 |
| Sazpaimon_ | something along the line of "what company created maemo" | 17:02 |
| SD69 | #info http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=78150 | 17:03 |
| reggie_ | Sazpaimon_, yes, these spammers use an automated software that can amazingly answer all those | 17:03 |
| reggie_ | so as SD60 has pointed out, i requested for volunteers to become SPAM Moderators | 17:04 |
| reggie_ | 57 members volunteered. | 17:04 |
| reggie_ | Breakdown per continent/timezone is as follows: | 17:04 |
| reggie_ | N/S America: 13, Europe/Africa: 31, Asia/Australia: 13 | 17:04 |
| SD69 | that was a great response! | 17:04 |
| mairas | reggie_, wow! that's a lot! | 17:04 |
| momcilo | reggie_, I think they might use rainbow tables to defeat the md5 hashes | 17:04 |
| reggie_ | I have chosen 11 from different continents so timezones can be covered | 17:05 |
| reggie_ | here are the 11: Addison, ammyt, debernardis, Estel, gerbick, lma, marxian, nicolai, pelago, Rauha, ysss | 17:05 |
| reggie_ | they are all now active | 17:05 |
| reggie_ | that's my TMO update. | 17:06 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I don't see what's wrong with either making a user's first few posts get queued for moderation or outright making it impossible for them to make new threads | 17:07 |
| SD69 | reggie: thanks | 17:07 |
| dr_frost_dk | thats good coverage reggie_ | 17:07 |
| Sazpaimon_ | maybe one of those is already in place and I missed it | 17:07 |
| momcilo | #info reggie_ has enlisted: Addison, ammyt, debernardis, Estel, gerbick, lma, marxian, nicolai, pelago, Rauha, ysss | 17:08 |
| momcilo | #info reggie_ Time zones: N/S America: 13, Europe/Africa: 31, Asia/Australia: 13 | 17:08 |
| MohammadAG | I'd #undo that and say what they were enlisted for | 17:08 |
| momcilo | #undo | 17:08 |
| maemobot | Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x877f50c> | 17:08 |
| momcilo | #undo | 17:08 |
| maemobot | Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x877f2ec> | 17:08 |
| momcilo | #info reggie_ has enlisted spam moderators: Addison, ammyt, debernardis, Estel, gerbick, lma, marxian, nicolai, pelago, Rauha, ysss | 17:08 |
| reggie_ | Sazpaimon_ if new members (with less than 5 posts) post something with more than 5 links, it goes to the moderation queue | 17:09 |
| reggie_ | a lot of new members sign up to actually post a question most of the time | 17:09 |
| Sazpaimon_ | 5 links sounds a little conservative, imo | 17:09 |
| momcilo | #info reggie_ provided breakedown per continent: N/S America: 13, Europe/Africa: 31, Asia/Australia: 13 | 17:09 |
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| ysss | imho it wouldn't be unreasonable for new members to make 5 link-less posts as he introduces himself, gets to know the community and so on. | 17:10 |
| dr_frost_dk | what about those members that was created 1 mounth back and was just waiting to spam? | 17:10 |
| ysss | they'd still have 0 posts | 17:10 |
| Sazpaimon_ | 13+31+13 != 11 | 17:10 |
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| momcilo | dr_frost_dk, anything to support such behavior? | 17:11 |
| momcilo | Sazpaimon_, reggie_ has made a selection out of larger number of people | 17:11 |
| reggie_ | dr_frost_dk, as long as they have less than 5 posts, spam posts with more than 5 URLs will still go to the moderation queue | 17:11 |
| reggie_ | but yes, it happens. spambots registed by bulk and say 60 days after they unleash | 17:12 |
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| reggie_ | *register | 17:12 |
| momcilo | reggie_, It happens in general or at tmo? | 17:13 |
| reggie_ | to clarify, 57 volunteered, 11 were selected | 17:13 |
| reggie_ | i've seen it happen in TMO, momcilo | 17:14 |
| Sazpaimon_ | can we run their usernames/ips through the stop forum spam API? | 17:14 |
| dr_frost_dk | i noticed some beginning to spam, and was created some time before, but the new 5 post with 5 links should still take them :) | 17:15 |
| reggie_ | Sazpaimon_, that's in place already | 17:15 |
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| Sazpaimon_ | reggie_, including the already registered sleeper cells? | 17:15 |
| reggie_ | well, once a member registers, membername and IP is checked from the stopforumspam database | 17:16 |
| reggie_ | as for sleeper cells, first few posts are checked with Akismet | 17:16 |
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| reggie_ | if they pass, then if there are more than 5 URLs in the post, they go to the moderation queue | 17:17 |
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| SD69 | may I suggest next topic? | 17:19 |
| reggie_ | also, once SPAM moderators delete posts, that spammer's membername, IP, and Email are reported and added to the stopforumspam database so others can use them as well | 17:20 |
| reggie_ | ok | 17:20 |
| reggie_ | thanks | 17:20 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I would submit that the spam catching mechanisms are sufficient enough, then | 17:20 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I think we can move on. | 17:20 |
| SD69 | thanks reggie | 17:20 |
| momcilo | #topic (Unpaid) volunteers for maemo.org administration. | 17:20 |
| Sazpaimon_ | what would such a task entail? | 17:21 |
| SD69 | so this is to idenitfy and replace former paid positions like wikimaster with unpaid trusted community members | 17:21 |
| SD69 | we have a problem with spam on wiki, but this is a way to transition to greater community involvement | 17:22 |
| X-Fade | SD69: There are several people already wiki admin, if you have suggestions, more can be added. | 17:22 |
| momcilo | #idea Can we assembly the complete list of positions? | 17:22 |
| ysss | +1, define and quantify the requirement | 17:23 |
| Sazpaimon_ | so wait, someone is/was paid to manage the wiki? | 17:23 |
| bergie | the other volunteer part is the "supertesters" on Downloads | 17:23 |
| X-Fade | Sazpaimon_: Not anymore. | 17:23 |
| bergie | ...and obviously TMO moderators, discussed in previous point | 17:23 |
| Sazpaimon_ | if it's a problem with spam, why not utilize our new spam moderators? | 17:24 |
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| SD69 | sazpaimon_: wiki is on a different ip address than forum | 17:24 |
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| X-Fade | Anyway, mediawiki just has a nice interface for that. | 17:25 |
| SD69 | rather than just more admins, etc., I'd like a ***master so people know who to contact to get a problem solved | 17:25 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Ah. | 17:26 |
| X-Fade | SD69: That person can also be a list perhaps? | 17:26 |
| X-Fade | And then people can pick their work from there? | 17:27 |
| X-Fade | Or bugzilla :) | 17:27 |
| SD69 | I was thinking we'd publish a list of positions, and the ones that are vacant, people can volunteer for and be selected | 17:27 |
| reggie_ | for the wiki, the admin/master/spam volunteers just need to subscribe to the wiki RSS feed. SPAM edits can be easily monitored. | 17:28 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: do we need a bugmaster? It's hard to keep up with current status... | 17:28 |
| X-Fade | Sure, that can work too. | 17:28 |
| X-Fade | SD69: andre is still doing that. | 17:28 |
| andre__ | kind of, yeah | 17:28 |
| X-Fade | Ah, there he is ;) | 17:29 |
| SD69 | some positions may need particular skills - webmaster, etc. | 17:29 |
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| X-Fade | SD69: You need to look at the problems you notice and then try to find a solution or people to fix this problem. | 17:30 |
| X-Fade | SD69: So that might be a topic for a next meeting? | 17:30 |
| SD69 | OK | 17:30 |
| qwazix_ | can you please be more specific about the tasks needed to be assigned? | 17:30 |
| momcilo | Who will make a list? | 17:30 |
| X-Fade | I don't think there is time in this meeting to go over that though :) | 17:31 |
| qwazix_ | ok let's assign it so that it is done before the next meeting | 17:31 |
| momcilo | qwazix, +1 | 17:31 |
| mairas | um, related to time - do you expect my presence to be required in the remaining topics? I'd need to be somewhere else already... | 17:31 |
| momcilo | qwazix, we can transfer that to mailing lists | 17:32 |
| momcilo | well the next one is related to mer project, | 17:32 |
| qwazix_ | something like: position, skills required, estimate time required per week(day) | 17:32 |
| qwazix_ | ok | 17:32 |
| SD69 | thanks for being here stskeeps and woot | 17:32 |
| SD69 | and anyone else from Mer | 17:33 |
| momcilo | qwazix, can you do it? | 17:33 |
| SD69 | let's assume familiarity with Mer in interest of time | 17:33 |
| SD69 | any comments? | 17:33 |
| momcilo | topic 4? | 17:34 |
| bergie | should we file the action first? | 17:34 |
| SD69 | sorry | 17:34 |
| momcilo | #action momcilo to initiate correspondence at maemo-community@maemo.org that should result in complete list of positions and required qualifications | 17:34 |
| Stskeeps | just to establish what we are: we're an independent project (even from maemo.org, Nokia, anyone), that seeks to maintain a nice and slim Linux/Qt core, with focus on vendors, not end-users, with the emphasis that vendors are hobbyists, small to medium enterprises, hardware adaptations, etc. Others can then put UX'es on top, like Cordia, CE, plasma active and add hardware adaptations, but these are not part of the project nor ... | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | ... governed by the mer project | 17:35 |
| momcilo | just as ec | 17:35 |
| momcilo | sec | 17:35 |
| momcilo | please | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 17:35 |
| momcilo | #topic Mer project www.merproject.org. | 17:35 |
| momcilo | Please start with #info tag | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | #info Mer: we're an independent project (even from maemo.org, Nokia, anyone), that seeks to maintain a nice and slim Linux/Qt core, with focus on vendors, not end-users, with the emphasis that vendors are hobbyists, small to medium enterprises, hardware adaptations, etc. Others can then put UX'es on top, like Cordia, CE, plasma active and add hardware adaptations, but these are not part of the project nor governed by the mer ... | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | ... project | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | #info governed by the mer project | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | #info CE will be delivering adaptations for N900, N950, N9 for Mer | 17:36 |
| momcilo | on top of mer? this is already agreed? | 17:37 |
| Stskeeps | yes, we already have the handset UX on top on ia32 port | 17:37 |
| Stskeeps | and mer already runs on n900 | 17:37 |
| momcilo | cool | 17:38 |
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| Stskeeps | of maemo.org interest it also has a ARMv6 port. | 17:38 |
| Stskeeps | and video has been published N810 booting to qmlviewer on a modern kernel | 17:38 |
| momcilo | I've seen it | 17:39 |
| Stskeeps | the general idea is to avoid a lot of the politics surrounding hw adaptations and UX'es, as well as to avoid preferential treatment to reference UX'es and have everyone utilizing the Core go through the same 'interface' | 17:39 |
| Stskeeps | so we have a good and open effort that people can trust to build upon | 17:40 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, do you think it is possible to correlate activities at maemo.org and www.merproject.org? | 17:43 |
| dr_frost_dk | sounds nice | 17:43 |
| Stskeeps | maemo.org is welcome to participate in merproject.org as a vendor for let's say, N8x0, 770 efforts, or in any of the CE activities | 17:44 |
| qwazix_ | The approach is really appealing, but having a distribution that is easily installable can gain traction, and attract testers | 17:45 |
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| Sazpaimon_ | qwazix_, from what I gather, mer isn't designed to be a distribution | 17:45 |
| Sazpaimon_ | more like a base framework | 17:46 |
| momcilo | Sazpaimon_, you mean to ask is it package system agnostic? | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | it's a toolkit for others to build with. | 17:46 |
| qwazix_ | I realized that but there could be a "reference" distribution based on mer | 17:46 |
| alterego | The more vendors we have with different use cases the better mer will become :) | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | qwazix_: we don't want anyone to be reference, anyone is able to build things with it | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | some will build Plasma Active things | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | some will build Cordia | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | etc | 17:46 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, packaging is rpm? | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | yes, it's rpm | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | it's a nice 302 source package core, no UX, no hardware adaptations | 17:47 |
| Sazpaimon_ | could that be changed on the vendor-end or is it too deeply rooted into the core | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | packaging is a religious issue, in practice it's the software that matters | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | we have a pretty good base to build off, meego 1.3, which performs really well and have good solutions related to it | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | .. any reactions? | 17:48 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, I agree, theoretically: can you base mer on debs as well? | 17:49 |
| SD69 | glad Mer will be around even if MeeGo will not | 17:49 |
| Sazpaimon_ | will software made for one UX work on another? | 17:49 |
| Stskeeps | you'd be insane to, as you have to rewrap everything. We tried with Debian and Ubuntu to do this in old Mer and it was a miserable failure - we have something now where all the weeds were cut | 17:49 |
| Sazpaimon_ | like, if I make a program utilizing cordia, will it work on CE, assuming the same or simmilar hardware | 17:50 |
| SD69 | looks like Mer will be an upstream to Maemo/Cordia | 17:50 |
| Stskeeps | Sazpaimon_: Mer will provide HTML5/QML/JS, there's no binary compatibility story | 17:50 |
| Stskeeps | but it's a tool for others to use | 17:50 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I mean't from a UX perspective | 17:50 |
| Sazpaimon_ | will programs need to be ported from one UX to another | 17:51 |
| Stskeeps | let's see what UX'es do :) | 17:51 |
| Sazpaimon_ | unlike android, who's applications work regardless of the UX on top of it | 17:51 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I think a "write once, deploy anywhere" approach might be for the best | 17:52 |
| Stskeeps | we'll focus on a working good open process and a core people can rely on. | 17:52 |
| Stskeeps | but we're just one piece of the puzzle, not a whole ecosystem. | 17:52 |
| qwazix_ | Shouldn't we build an ecosystem out of the pieces though, under maemo roof? | 17:53 |
| momcilo | So basically you will not enforce app compatibly among UX'es? | 17:53 |
| Stskeeps | you're welcome to, we'll be making the engine. | 17:53 |
| Stskeeps | momcilo: correct - we don't have a trademark nor intend to use it if we did in such a way | 17:53 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, are there any plans to provide optional compatibility? | 17:54 |
| Stskeeps | momcilo: people are welcome to gather together and do so - in practice, QML/HTML5/JS is what will work across the large amount of architectures | 17:55 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I really do think a compatability solution would be for the best, it may be off putting for some users that their Mer-powered smartphone does not run the same apps as the Mer-powered smartphone from another vendor | 17:55 |
| Stskeeps | Mer is a non-brand. | 17:55 |
| Stskeeps | it's a tool for others to build with. | 17:55 |
| Sazpaimon_ | so really, then, Mer is for others to build seperate, distinct operating systems with | 17:56 |
| reggie_ | is Mer's goal similar to Nomovok's Steelrat? | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | reggie_: steelrat is a UX | 17:56 |
| reggie_ | ok | 17:56 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I just hope that fragmentation will not be an issue, in the end | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | right, we deliver the engine that can do HTML5/QML/JS really well and easily put on devices | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | others will deliver the wheels like hardware adaptations, others will give the windscreen | 17:57 |
| Sazpaimon_ | how do you plan to "sell" this concept to vendors | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | "you don't have to hire a large bunch of smelly linux coders to build simple things" | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | as well as easy ways to prototype new things | 17:58 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, that is technical part, what about the business plan | 17:58 |
| Stskeeps | let's see how things go | 17:58 |
| SD69 | I think we should move to the next topic | 17:58 |
| Stskeeps | momcilo: it's a open project, non-profit, do we need a business plan? | 17:58 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 17:58 |
| vetsin_ | is there such a thing as a mer community? will there be any efforts to merge it with the maemo community? | 17:59 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, if you are going to present it to the vendors you need one | 17:59 |
| Sazpaimon_ | yes I think we've drilled Stskeeps long enough | 17:59 |
| Stskeeps | vetsin_: feel free to ask in #mer | 17:59 |
| Stskeeps | (and for the rest of you too) | 17:59 |
| momcilo | Stskeeps, I hope we can discuss at some other time | 17:59 |
| vetsin_ | ok. thanks. | 17:59 |
| momcilo | next topic | 17:59 |
| momcilo | #topic Nokia changes to lintian to be used in maemian. | 17:59 |
| momcilo | jeremiah has asked for this topic and the next after | 18:00 |
| Sazpaimon_ | what's the story behind this | 18:00 |
| reggie_ | background please | 18:00 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I have a rough idea of what lintian is | 18:00 |
| momcilo | I know and use lintian, but jeremiah was a deb master on maemo.org and I guess there were changes to default policy checking tool applied to maemo distribution | 18:01 |
| Sazpaimon_ | wrt? | 18:01 |
| X-Fade | Guys, I need to go. Please try to keep meetings in the 1 hour timeframe next time :) | 18:01 |
| momcilo | X-Fade, I don't blame you ;) | 18:02 |
| SD69 | sorry to say I have to go soon too | 18:02 |
| Sazpaimon_ | X-Fade, to be fair there were a lot of hot button topics on the agenda | 18:02 |
| Stskeeps | if there's chances to a gpl tool inside nokia that could be useful for the community, just file a bug and it's likely to get it out from te repos | 18:02 |
| X-Fade | Sazpaimon_: yeah, just needs more meetings. | 18:02 |
| SD69 | MohammadAG: did you have comments on topic 6 - patches | 18:03 |
| SD69 | ? | 18:03 |
| momcilo | SD69, I think we may be forced to discuss this at some other meeting? | 18:03 |
| bergie | I should go soon as well | 18:04 |
| bergie | already missed the W3C meeting I was supposed to attend, and I'll have an early flight tomorrow | 18:04 |
| reggie_ | how many topics are left? postpone to next meeting? | 18:04 |
| SD69 | bergie: no problem. thanks for attending | 18:05 |
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| SD69 | X-Fade: thanks for attending | 18:05 |
| Sazpaimon_ | reggie_, 5 and 6 are left | 18:05 |
| Sazpaimon_ | we are currently on 5 but made no progress on it | 18:05 |
| momcilo | the main stakeholders are not present, so we can postpone? | 18:06 |
| Sazpaimon_ | it would probably be for the best | 18:06 |
| momcilo | #agree postponed this topic for next meeting | 18:06 |
| qwazix_ | when is next meeting? | 18:06 |
| momcilo | #topic Possibility of receiving patches from Nokia for any debs they've | 18:06 |
| momcilo | patched. | 18:06 |
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| momcilo | Can I postpone this as well? | 18:07 |
| Sazpaimon_ | I don't see why not | 18:07 |
| momcilo | #agree postponed this topic for next meeting | 18:07 |
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| momcilo | the next meeting is expected in exactly two weeks, the initial time is 15:00 UTC, but we will confirm it at later time | 18:07 |
| momcilo | Anything you would like to nominate for the next meeting? | 18:08 |
| momcilo | #topic topics for the next meeting | 18:08 |
| qwazix_ | I think that we should discuss about "marketing" of our next moves. | 18:09 |
| reggie_ | gtg. thanks all! | 18:09 |
| qwazix_ | I mean how should we present our efforts to the world and under what roof | 18:09 |
| momcilo | qwazix, mer or maemo or both? | 18:09 |
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| momcilo | qwazix_, mer or maemo or both? | 18:10 |
| qwazix_ | That's exactly what I am trying to avoid. The confusion between products | 18:10 |
| freemangordon_ | what about CSSU? | 18:10 |
| momcilo | N900? | 18:10 |
| freemangordon_ | yep | 18:10 |
| momcilo | I guess that is still under maemo.org | 18:11 |
| momcilo | which is logical | 18:11 |
| qwazix_ | An idea would be to create a 'flagship' product, with mer as core, one of the ux's and target the atom tablets | 18:11 |
| momcilo | as a community tablet? | 18:11 |
| qwazix_ | yes exactly | 18:12 |
| momcilo | that is tough cookie | 18:12 |
| momcilo | freemangordon_, is there anything you would like to suggest regarding the CSSU for the next meeting? | 18:13 |
| qwazix_ | I think all the parts are there and I have been trying to make something usable out of it but I am not experienced enough | 18:13 |
| momcilo | qwazix_, there was a cordia tab effort | 18:13 |
| momcilo | #info http://cordiatab.com/ | 18:13 |
| qwazix_ | I know that, but that hit the wall with the manufacturers | 18:14 |
| qwazix_ | and it is not yet everyday usable | 18:14 |
| momcilo | qwazix_, there was some further development - it appears tomasz found the vendor willing to provide source | 18:14 |
| momcilo | qwazix_, any particular product, or building everything from scratch? | 18:15 |
| qwazix_ | With the abundance of atom tablets on the market, and collecting all the touch friendly open applications either maemo, meego tablet and meego handset I think we could have tomorrow a version 1.0 of our OS | 18:15 |
| ysss | Isn't the real number in arm based tablets? | 18:16 |
| momcilo | ysss, there is the question of openness of arm world, vendors are not too willing to share | 18:17 |
| qwazix_ | as for hardware, it should work on the ideapad, the wetab (can't remember the name of the slate intel was giving away), the inspiron convertible etc | 18:17 |
| momcilo | qwazix_, cordia is being developed on ideapad | 18:17 |
| qwazix_ | yes, I know, I have it installed. | 18:18 |
| momcilo | Battery life? | 18:18 |
| momcilo | #endmeeting | 18:19 |
| maemobot | Meeting ended Thu Oct 13 15:19:04 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:19 |
| maemobot | Minutes: maemo-meeting/2011/maemo-meeting.2011-10-13-13.11.html | 18:19 |
| maemobot | Minutes (text): maemo-meeting/2011/maemo-meeting.2011-10-13-13.11.txt | 18:19 |
| maemobot | Log: maemo-meeting/2011/maemo-meeting.2011-10-13-13.11.log.html | 18:19 |
| ysss | ah yeah. it's just unfortunate that atom tablets are mostly heavier, more expensive, runs hotter with shorter runtime (<6hrs) | 18:19 |
| momcilo | ysss, I hope medfield may reduce the issues in future | 18:19 |
| qwazix_ | Never used it for long enough on battery. I am just trying to make the handset ux apps work on it but I am failing. | 18:19 |
| damnshock | where will the logs be available to download from¿? | 18:19 |
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| momcilo | I will post a link at topic related to this meeting at Community section of tmo | 18:20 |
| momcilo | I can not do it know | 18:20 |
| ysss | aye | 18:21 |
| momcilo | Ok, i about to leave know, I hope we will manage the next meeting in 1 hour ;) | 18:22 |
| momcilo | Ok, I am about to leave know, I hope we will manage the next meeting in 1 hour ;) | 18:22 |
| qwazix_ | To consolidate, I am proposing to gather whatever we have working (cordia, calendar app from meego tablet, modest from fremantle, contacts and fennec) and produce an early beta product | 18:22 |
| qwazix_ | Ok bye | 18:22 |
| momcilo | bye | 18:23 |
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| ysss | bye | 18:23 |
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| Sicelo | vn | 18:24 |
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| *** Sazpaimon_ is now known as Sazpaimon | 18:24 | |
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| momcilo | Sicelo, can you send me the full log so I can add full topic 7 in minutes? | 18:25 |
| Sicelo | sure | 18:25 |
| momcilo | Sicelo, thank you | 18:26 |
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