IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Thursday, 2011-10-06

*** momcilo has joined #maemo-meeting15:53
*** SD69_ has joined #maemo-meeting18:16
momciloHi18:17
momciloHi, I hope did not disturb your plans. Btw: what is your timezone?18:18
SD69_hi, I'm in New York time zone18:20
SD69_sorry I'm late - didn't realize we had a meeting18:22
momciloMy mistake18:22
momciloI thought you saw my question in one of my responses18:23
momciloThe thing is that thing have moved since the Tizen was announced18:23
momciloIn general I wanted to meet you guys and discuss on how the council is run.18:24
momciloIn addition, I though it would be wise to meet before next week, since merproject was very quick to react18:25
SD69_sure18:27
SD69_there are no rules on how council is run18:28
SD69_generally, there are periodic IRC channel meetings and emails inbetween18:30
momciloThat much I've gathered.18:31
SD69_if you are available for next week's meeting with Nokia and Nemein, you should confirm on the email thread18:32
momciloI can confirm it now18:32
momciloDo nemain and nokia need to be in response as well, since council@maemo.org was in a cc?18:33
SD69_We got no response to our two proposals on monday :-(18:33
SD69_I don't know what that means18:33
momciloStskeeps has registered the domain the following day after Tizen announcement18:33
momciloI did not talk to him, since I assume you know him better18:34
momcilothan me18:34
SD69_is jeremiah joining?18:34
SD69_I do know him somewhat18:34
momciloI don't know18:34
momcilolet me check the e-mail18:34
momciloHe responded at 15:50 and asked for the meeting at #maemo or #maemo-meeting18:35
momciloI've tried to msg him on irc, but no answer so far18:35
SD69_let's not get too far into council business without him18:36
momciloI was thinking about building community hardware18:37
*** jeremiah_ has joined #maemo-meeting18:37
jeremiah_hiya18:37
SD69_hi18:37
momcilohi18:37
SD69_so Carsten is dedicated guy18:38
jeremiah_mm18:38
SD69_everyone wants to bend Mer in their direction - openSUSE, ActivePlasma, etc.18:38
jeremiah_I don't think that is what they are doing.18:38
momciloYou mean from outside18:39
jeremiah_A lot of distros realize they need ARM support18:39
jeremiah_This is why they are looking at the OBS18:39
jeremiah_Because it can build cross-platform packages18:39
SD69_the minutes of activeplasma meeting are interesting read18:39
jeremiah_That makes creating an ARM distro easier18:39
SD69_Carsten wants to keep Mer UX neutral, and activeplasma want a merged working group18:40
momciloSo far it looks mer people want to be indepented18:40
SD69_does maemo.org want to be independent too?18:40
momciloThat is interesting question18:41
jeremiah_It should be independent of Nokia18:41
jeremiah_if it wants to survive18:41
jeremiah_Mer is welcome to be part of that.18:41
momciloas tsg?18:41
jeremiah_But I don't think they're interested18:41
momcilodo they want to be part of maemo?18:41
jeremiah_They started out as part of Maemo18:41
momcilothe manifest is suggesting they want to court manufactorors18:41
SD69_I don't think they've fully thought it through and/or that maemo.org is dead thing18:41
jeremiah_Mer == Maemo reconstructed18:41
jeremiah_SD69_: I don't think they care18:42
momciloMeego Reconstructed18:42
jeremiah_momcilo: Well, Mer was Maemo Reconstructed _before_ there was MeeGo :)18:42
momcilomaemo -> mer -> meego -> mer18:42
momciloI remember18:42
momciloI wanted to join them, but discovered they've moved to meego18:43
SD69_they had to - you can't make a core OS out of maemo, too many closed parts18:43
momciloI did not like it and had doubts about intel + nokia from the very beginning18:43
jeremiah_There are always closed parts in corporate Linux18:44
jeremiah_There are closed parts in MeeGo18:44
jeremiah_The point is to have a open OS that anyone can build18:44
jeremiah_To do that we'll need to get all the peices of Maemo18:44
jeremiah_That is a good start18:44
momcilo"end users" or vendors?18:45
jeremiah_But it will be hard18:45
jeremiah_Who cares? Vendors are end users18:45
jeremiah_But I doubt any vendor is interested18:45
momciloWhy not android then?18:45
jeremiah_Eh?18:45
jeremiah_What does Android have to do with it?18:45
momciloIt is open to vendors18:45
jeremiah_Not really18:45
momciloJust a remark18:45
jeremiah_That is why there is Bada18:45
jeremiah_The binary blobs that get stuffed into Motorola do not get ported to other vendors18:46
momciloI see Bada as plan B on behalf of Samsung18:46
jeremiah_It will now be plan C as Tizen becomes plan B. :)18:46
momciloThe binary blobs by motorola I assume?18:46
jeremiah_I think most of those come from Android and Google, but there may be stuff that is closed from Motorola18:47
jeremiah_Often the handset manufacturers claim they have to keep stuff closed due to regulations18:47
SD69_well, do we invite Mer to utilize maemo.org?18:47
jeremiah_Yeah, sure18:47
momciloAgreed18:47
momciloIf they want18:47
jeremiah_Right now it is being hosted in Keepsie's basement :)18:47
momcilo;)18:47
jeremiah_They have no money, no real infra, no customers, etc.18:47
SD69_they can have their independence as a TSG or equivalent, yes?18:48
jeremiah_SD69_: Makes sense.18:48
jeremiah_I mean, I don't really wanna boss them around18:48
momciloWhat about Debian?18:48
SD69_me neither18:48
momciloCan it be just another TSG?18:48
jeremiah_Well there is an obligation to return to Debian any modified Debian software18:48
jeremiah_Aside from that we can ignore them. :)18:49
jeremiah_The thing is, Debian is the 800 lb gorilla of Linux distros18:49
momcilojeremiah_, you stated transition to Debian as part of introduction18:49
jeremiah_It is the biggest, most widely used, most packages, oldest, etc.18:49
jeremiah_momcilo: Yup.18:49
jeremiah_I want to return Maemo patches to Debian18:49
jeremiah_But that is a relatively focused job18:49
SD69_Mer does not want to get into .rpm vs. .deb debate18:50
momciloAnd at the same time, you wanted direct developer action?18:50
SD69_neither do I18:50
momciloAs far as I see it, we can build mer packages as debian distribution18:50
jeremiah_Well, if Maemo is the home of Free Software mobile development, I think that is cool18:50
jeremiah_momcilo: Sure.18:51
momcilojeremiah_,  if you want to be directly involved, can you form/participate "Debian" tsg18:51
jeremiah_momcilo: I don't really need a TSG, I'm happy just to do it informally18:52
momciloOn your own?18:52
jeremiah_With others who are willing to help18:52
momciloI am intersted18:52
jeremiah_momcilo: You interested? ;)18:52
momcilo;)18:52
jeremiah_\0/18:52
jeremiah_yay18:52
jeremiah_:)18:52
momcilothe thing is the following: I am not hostile to mer, but...18:53
jeremiah_I am sorry if people perceive me as hostile to mer18:53
momciloI am not that certain Carsten will manage to get it done18:53
jeremiah_momcilo: Exactly. Where will he get funding?18:53
momcilofrom his pocket18:53
SD69_jeremiah: you are obviously not hostile if you agree that they can come to maemo.org18:54
momcilosorry about that18:54
jeremiah_The thing is, I don't want a huge fracturing of the Mobile Linux landscape.18:54
jeremiah_If Maemo.org can be the headquarters of mobile linux (which it should be)18:54
jeremiah_this would be the best18:54
momcilo I want to say that since meego did not get attention, it is unlikely that community project like mer will attact attention outside of the developer circles18:54
jeremiah_Because we already have a bunch of great software and hackers18:55
SD69_jeremiah: +118:55
jeremiah_momcilo: I'm not saying we're gonna be successful, I just want to try18:55
momcilomy remark was about mer goals18:55
jeremiah_sure :)18:55
momciloin that respect I see diablo as a safe altentavive18:56
jeremiah_But the same is true about maemo, if we don't have new devices, people will lose interest18:56
momcilowe can even work with them/mirror their progress to debian18:56
momciloI was thinking about community hardware18:56
jeremiah_Yeah, I'd love to see some community hardware18:56
momciloAnd remembered openmoko 1973 and Neo Freerunner18:56
jeremiah_But that is tough to do too18:56
momciloIt appears GTA04 will appear soon to replace the initial motherboard in old casing18:57
SD69_check out zareason - they have open source tablet and are looking for FOSS18:57
momciloSD69_, I will check, that just let me finish ;)18:58
momciloI am thinging about having same hardware platform, with different form factors18:58
momciloIf something is small enough to feet a cell phone casing, it can fit tablet casing as well18:58
momciloAbout the casing, prototyping is b and painful j18:59
momcilojob18:59
momcilosorry18:59
jeremiah_But how are you going to get this created?18:59
momciloAbout the casing, prototyping is expensive and painful job18:59
jeremiah_You need to have an order for like 10,000 units to get this made in India or China18:59
momciloJust an idea at the moment18:59
jeremiah_And you need to have the money upfront.18:59
momciloThat is true18:59
jeremiah_Our company just did a simple carrier card for the beagleboard.19:00
momciloI've contacted GTA04 people19:00
jeremiah_Just to show some network functionality19:00
jeremiah_not even consumer grade19:00
momciloThe casing can cost $25000 to $10000019:00
jeremiah_It cost close to $10,000 US for five boards19:00
momcilomy company did build its own devices, by ordering casings from external suppliers19:00
SD69_jeremiah: what is your company?19:01
momcilojeremiah_, you are talking about electronics or encousure19:01
momcilowww.vlatacom.com19:01
momciloWe've built passport readers19:01
momciloThat is not important for the story, except I know that building the casing is almost as difficult as hardware19:02
momciloAs for electronics, I suggest we piggy back GTA04 project or similar19:02
momciloOne open plaform, multiple form factors19:03
momciloSo far, just like stskeeps, I've got no money to support the idea19:03
momciloIn fact, i am a software guy, so hardware, materials, design are pretty much unknown territory19:04
jeremiah_http://pelagicore.com19:04
jeremiah_momcilo: Electronics19:04
momcilonice19:04
momciloI've got the response from GTA04 and some information from them19:04
momciloI can forward that to both of you for later reading19:05
jeremiah_Whoa - cool stuff momcilo!19:05
jeremiah_momcilo: Do you guys work in the automotive industry?19:05
SD69_I'm hardware (not software)19:05
momcilono19:05
jeremiah_SD69_: Ah, what is your company?19:05
SD69_no company19:06
momciloIn general I can help with NFC stuff and smart cards19:06
jeremiah_ah, cool19:06
jeremiah_NFC is hot right now19:06
momcilowe will see if it will be hot19:06
momciloI do have reservations19:06
momciloI don't like caring money tokens in a cell phone that is used on a hourly/daily base19:07
jeremiah_No, seems a bit risky19:08
momciloIt is risky from the point of having higher chance of loosing ability to pay19:08
momciloBut, lets get to the topic19:09
momciloIf we (maemo.org) manage to build a 7 inch tablet case, it should be built in such way, that two years afterwards new board can be inserted instead of the old one19:10
momcilojust like gta04 is doing with their project19:10
SD69_what is topic?19:12
momcilo;)19:12
SD69_maemo governance?19:12
momciloOk, I went to much in details19:12
momcilothat is the topic19:12
momciloWho will approach stskeeps?19:12
SD69_I can19:13
SD69_But I will approach entire Mer TSG19:13
momciloI see Stskeeps as a leader of Mer TSG ;)19:13
jeremiah_lbt has a lot to do with it too19:14
SD69_woot is a big part of it too19:14
SD69_nice to see them both back at tmo19:14
momciloThere are 3 people who have signed the manifest19:14
jeremiah_I don't see how w00t is going to have time, but if he does, great19:15
momciloWell, for one thing Carsten, really made splash this time ;)19:15
momciloThere are 150 people hanging around at #mer19:16
SD69_maemo did get mentioned in Network World article on mer19:16
momcilohttp://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/mer-resurrected ?19:16
momciloBlog entry appeared at blog aggregation19:17
SD69_momcilo: can you change the agenda that appears at the top of my freenode chat window?19:17
momcilono19:17
momciloI have to ask Carsten?19:18
momciloor X-fade19:18
momciloor GeneralAntilles19:18
SD69_Not X-fade19:19
SD69_GeneralAntilles would probably know19:19
GeneralAntillesHrm?19:19
momciloHi, can we change to topic on this channel?19:19
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o momcilo19:19
GeneralAntillesShould be able to now.19:20
*** momcilo changes topic to "Future of Maemo. 2011-10-06 15:00 UTC Initial meeting"19:20
momcilothank you19:20
momcilohow should be do it in future?19:20
SD69_thanks19:20
momcilohow should we do it in future?19:20
SD69_I think next meeting is 2011-10-13 15:00UTC19:21
momciloI mean the op19:21
momciloI can give op to maemobot, but I don't know if that is ok with GeneralAntilles19:21
momciloWell, should be finish the meeting?19:24
SD69_let's set agenda for next meeting19:24
GeneralAntillesNeed to get X-Fade to add you to the access list.19:24
GeneralAntillesbugs.maemo.org19:24
momciloGeneralAntilles, thank you, will do this evening19:24
momciloSD69_, agreed19:25
SD69_agenda - maemo.org domain name registration expires in 4 months19:25
momcilo#startmeeting19:25
maemobotMeeting started Thu Oct  6 16:25:44 2011 UTC.  The chair is momcilo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:25
maemobotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.19:25
SD69_I suggest we ask Nokia to report their intentions wrt domain name at next week's meeting19:26
momcilo#topic agenda for the next meeting19:26
momcilo#nick SD69_19:26
momcilo#nick jeremiah_19:26
momciloSD69_, you can use meetbot commands19:26
SD69_agenda item #119:27
SD69_and ask Nokia to transfer, license or lease, etc., to community19:28
SD69_* the domain name19:28
momcilosure19:28
momciloWho handles the registration nemein or nokia?19:29
SD69_nokia19:29
SD69_unlikely, but we ask...19:30
momciloDid anybody ask so far?19:30
SD69_not as bluntly as we will ask19:30
SD69_:-)19:30
momciloI leave that to you ;)19:31
SD69_in February 2011, they renewed domain name for only one year - why?19:31
SD69_future agenda item #2 - tmo spam and other tmo issues19:32
momciloReggie's input?19:33
SD69_I'19:33
SD69_ve asked him to attend and he said he will19:33
SD69_is moderation too lax now?19:34
momciloI don't know, I think there is a problem with registration process19:34
momciloThere were suggestions for additional moderation19:35
momcilobut that is on the thread allready19:35
SD69_but does council need to review and decide something?19:35
momciloIt would be intersting to determine if registration of bots was human assisted or automatic19:35
momciloIs texrat still around?19:36
momcilohe is supermoderator?19:36
SD69_texrat has been around quite a bit considering he is busy, but maemo -> meego -> WP7 -> Tizen19:37
momciloWP7?????19:37
momciloNevermind19:37
SD69_yes-he had a blog posting where he speculated about going to WP7 community19:38
momciloI did not see it as a serious statement19:38
SD69_me neither19:38
momciloSD69_, By lax what do you actually mean? Registration or message contents?19:39
SD69_both19:39
momcilobots or the people?19:39
momciloThere is one issue with that I don't like personally19:40
SD69_very impressed by number of moderator volunteers19:40
momciloI think that people are generally attached to maemo.org19:40
momciloActually, I myself was pretty hibernated until Elop guy appeared ;)19:41
SD69_agenda item #3 - unpaid volunteers for maemo.org admnistration19:42
momciloseen it you e-mails19:43
momciloseen it your e-mails19:43
SD69_those are my suggestions - we leave non-profit discussion for another meeting19:43
momciloI've got nothing to add at the moment, except that we may have some feedback from mer19:44
SD69_jeremiah: do you have anything for the Oct 13 meeting?19:45
jeremiah_Well, I don't have so much19:45
jeremiah_I have to think about what my first steps are19:45
SD69_sure let's add Mer and our modest (largely ignored) proposals as an agenda item19:46
jeremiah_SD69_: heh, sounds good. :)19:46
momciloOct 13,  13:00 UTC?19:46
SD69_we need volunteer wikimaster, volunteer election supervisor, volunteer rep manager19:47
SD69_yes, sorry I said 15:00UTC earlier in this meeting and that is wrong19:48
SD69_and hopefully, second thursday of every month at UTC13:00 with Nokia and Nemein so we don't go through scheduling process repeatedly19:48
momciloOk19:49
SD69_nice talking to you - bye until next week19:51
momciloI have to leave know, nice talking to you19:51
jeremiah_ciao!19:53
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momcilo_#endmeeting22:52

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