IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Saturday, 2011-03-26

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fcrochikgood morning/afternoon....is this the right time (other than the 2 minutes I am late)?15:05
SD69an hour early I think15:06
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fcrochikoh yeah.... great so I am 50 min early..instead of 10 late... :) I will have to have another espresso then ... thanks15:08
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JaffaAf'noon15:32
Ken-YoungGood morning15:32
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DocScrutinizertopic?15:49
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JaffaNo bot to give ops; agenda at http://maemo.org/community/council/public_maemo_community_council-hand-over-meeting-saturday-26_march-1400_utc/15:50
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DocScrutinizer:-)15:54
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qolegood_morning_or_afternoon-whatever-it-might-be15:55
fcrochikqole: good morning (for me)15:55
DocScrutinizergood (UGT) morning15:55
mase_76hi15:55
qoleit is too early for a Saturday :) 'scuze me while I go make a coffee !15:56
fcrochikqole: right with you there!15:56
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timsamoffGood morning everyone!15:58
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qolefcrochik, are you on Pacific time, too?15:59
fcrochikqole: no.... but 10am is early for a Saturday (ET) :)15:59
timsamoffOh, my... :p15:59
qoleHa! That it is.15:59
timsamoffOk, so I've got to get things started, because I need to leave at 8a sharp.16:00
JaffaCool16:00
timsamoffI was wondering if everyone who is here can let us know... I see a few new Council members and just a couple (including me) departing ones.16:00
SD69hi every116:01
JaffaHello. Andrew Flegg. Outgoing Council member.16:01
fcrochikpresent!16:01
eipi2Hello!  Just observing.16:01
vldcnstHi, lurking. Go on.16:01
qoleHello, Alan Bruce, past and present council member. Present. And past.16:02
GAN900Hello, Ryan Abel. Glad I'm not in your shoes. :P16:02
qolehahahahaha16:02
timsamoffAnd, of course, I'm Tim Samoff, outgoing Council Chair.16:03
JaffaThree new members; two outgoing? Is that correct?16:03
timsamoffSeems like it.16:03
JaffaMissing andy80 & RevdKathy from the outgoing.16:03
DocScrutinizerhello to all and a heartly welcome to new council, from Joerg_rw16:03
fcrochikwe are missing texrat and attila (new council)16:03
timsamoffThree is good enough for this meeting. Maybe the others will show...? Thanks for those who are here... Sorry for some of you (and me) about the early hour. I appreciate you making the time.16:03
timsamoffI'd like to remind you of the agenda:16:04
timsamoff1. Introductions16:04
timsamoff2. What was done during last term16:04
timsamoff3. What was not done during last term16:04
timsamoff4. Past Council reflections/comments16:04
timsamoff5. New Council comments/questions16:04
Jaffaachipa's computer's broken (if you saw meego-dev ;-/)16:04
* timsamoff sheds a tear. :(16:04
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timsamoffBut, please note that this is not a typical "Council" meeting, per se... We are not here to hash out new action items, etc.16:04
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fcrochikhe can use communi on the n900 (free ad... :) )16:05
timsamoffNevertheless, has the new Council began discussing the Chair position? I haven't seen anything on council@...16:05
qoleOh and he refused to take an ideapad at the conference, which would have made a good backup...16:05
qoleNot me!16:05
qoleThere I said it first16:05
* timsamoff 's IdeaPad never was able to get wifi, so maybe not...16:05
SD69we elected whoeever is not here as chair...16:05
fcrochiktimsamoff: not that I know of....haven't heard anything from anybody on the new council16:05
SD69not me either16:06
timsamoffSo, that should be one of your first action-items. I won't hound you, but try to get it done within the week, please. ;)16:06
fcrochikI don't know what you are running from....sould I say me neither?16:06
qoleI say we elect Atilla the chair, and he won't find out until his computer is fixed16:06
timsamoffThe role of Chair is not all that intensive... Plan meetings, publish meeting minutes, organize people to take on certain tasks, etc.16:07
timsamoffI must admit that I was a horrible Chair this term. But, it doesn't take much time.16:07
timsamoffReally, the Chair must be able to appoint people according to their skills.16:08
qoleI will be communications officer, if you wish,16:08
fcrochiktimsamoff: I can't imagine you were horrible.... even w/o knowing what you were supposedly to do....16:08
Jaffaqole: Not up to us ;-)16:08
qolebut I don't want to plan meetings and organize people to take on tasks :)16:08
Jaffafcrochik: Nah, he was good. Suitably chasing us about meetings.16:09
timsamoffIn any case, please hash it out amongst yourselves this week.16:09
fcrochiktimsamoff: see... yes sir! :)16:09
* timsamoff laughs16:09
timsamoffAll right... Introductions are out of the way... Lets move on to Agenda Item 2: What was done during last term16:09
timsamoffJaffa, can you lead this one?16:10
JaffaYup16:10
fcrochikis it too much to ask for people's names? I don't know about the policy but I have a hard time not knowing who I am talking to...16:10
qole(just back to the chair position, I am willing to split the role,16:10
JaffaOK, so just before the last election concluded (IIRC) the legal ownership of maemo.org was handed over to the community; with Nemein (Henri Bergius as main point of contact) managing it on our behalf.16:10
qole(I'll do the stuff I'm not bad at doing, and someone else can chase people about meetings and duties)16:11
timsamoffqole Since this isn't a "Council" meeting... Handle it via email. ;)16:11
qolegotcha16:11
JaffaThere are now only three members of the maemo.org team, all part-time. X-Fade (Niels Breet) webmaster; Andre Klapper (andre) bugmaster; Reggie Suplido (Reggie) talkmaster.16:11
JaffaNemein have further budget which equates to one full time person16:12
JaffaSo, things the Council did last six months:16:12
Jaffa(incomplete, I think)16:12
fcrochikis Nemein working on anything new or just maintenance?16:13
Jaffa* Was involved in the sponsorship of people for the MeeGo Conference from a "handset" background16:13
timsamofffcrochik: That depends on what the Council thinks is important.16:13
Jaffafcrochik: I wouldn't have thought the maintenance should keep a single person busy full time - but I'll address this further in the next bit.16:13
qolethe extra budget, is that for emergencies, or is that for a role that they can't fill?16:13
Jaffa* Sponsored the Maemo 5 Community SSU; providing support & advice to MohammadAG; dealing with the thread on bugs.maemo.org and helping triage the bugs (j.mp/communityssu-bugs)16:14
Jaffaqole: No, it's budget to be done by people on Nemein staff as necessary. But no single specific person16:14
qoleJaffa thanks16:15
timsamoffAlso, everyone please look at Agenda Item 5: New Council comments/questions16:15
qoleWhen you say 'sponsored' you don't mean monetarily, right?16:15
Jaffa* Passed on a refresh licence change request queue request from DocScrutinizer & jonwil to Quim16:15
Jaffaqole: No, I mean in the AA sense.16:15
Jaffa* Asked Tero about maemo.org funding, given the concern voiced from the community after Feb 11th16:16
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Jaffa(mode +v highlights the new council in some IRC clients, apparently)16:17
JaffaErm, I've lost my notes. There was other stuff; what am I forgetting?16:17
Jaffa* Held a brainstorm redux meeting with the maemo.org team to work out how the Maemo Brainstorm items were progressing.16:17
timsamoff* If Atilla was here, he could speak of community bug reporting.16:17
JaffaAh yes, and liaising with Qt maintainers around Qt versions in Extras-devel16:18
timsamoff* If Kathy was here, she might talk about what has happened on tmo.16:18
JaffaAnd liaising with Forum Nokia folks who are doing Qt hotfixes.16:18
timsamoff* Not sure if Andrea would have had anything to add.16:18
timsamoff* I made a good (not perfect) effort at an ongoing communication with the community via the COuncil blog.16:19
JaffaYup16:19
timsamoff -- Which I'd love to se continue.16:19
timsamoffAnd then, unless there's anything else, there is Agenda Item 3: What was not done during last term16:20
qoletimsamoff, your blog certainly made the council more visible!16:20
timsamoffqole: Thanks!16:20
* timsamoff has a problem with tl:dr sometimes, though!16:20
JaffaThe big thing is get a handle on the maemo.org staff & Nemein. Despite committing to come up with a community involvement process (to help lighten their workload), it's often a black hole.16:21
JaffaProblems need to be chased sometimes to support@nemein.com email address to raise a ticket in their internal system.16:21
* timsamoff nods.16:21
timsamoffWhich brings me to... One of the initiatives that Jaffa and I began last term and never finished was a new form of community bug reporting.16:21
JaffaAndre is still doing lots of work in Bugzilla triaging bugs both for the CSSU and Extras projects.16:21
Jaffatimsamoff: However, with two members of staff, I was less convinced of the need16:22
timsamoffTrue.16:22
timsamoffAndre also splits his time (voluntarily?) on the MeeGo Bugzilla.16:22
JaffaNiels is helping set up the Community OBS which can be used for MeeGo, Fremantle and Harmattan; but there's no clearly communicated plan for transitioning to it from the autobuilder.16:22
JaffaBut the committed-to donations system for maemo.org/downloads hasn't been worked on at all; nor is there any documentation about the structure (AFAICT) of maemo.org16:23
qolethe official Nokia bugs are all wontfix now, are they?16:23
timsamoffPlus we're sorely lacking at this point is a complete cost breakdown of maemo.org.16:24
JaffaWhich led to problems getting this election sorted because dneary no longer has access and Henri and X-Fade were travelling.16:24
Jaffaqole: Probably. Open source stuff can be fixed in CSSU and closed source stuff can be rewritten or replaced.16:24
qoledneary doesn't have access?16:24
timsamoffThe Council must continue pushing for this.16:24
Jaffaqole: See above. He's no longer a member of staff.16:24
fcrochiksorry for the silly question (if it is): shouldn't we have a project with deliverables, timeframe for nemein? at all times....16:25
timsamoffBut, with root access, the Council should be able to give anyone access, right?16:25
JaffaNokia couldn't afford to renew his contract.16:25
Jaffatimsamoff: Yes... consistent with some best practices.16:25
timsamofffcrochik: Not a silly question at all!16:25
Jaffafcrochik: Indeed.16:25
qoleI didn't ask if he was being paid...16:25
Jaffaqole: Well, it didn't sound like he ever had access to the raw maemo.org user database either16:26
qoleOk...16:26
timsamoffJaffa right.16:26
fcrochikthat is another good question: who has access to "all"?16:26
timsamoffNeiman and X-fade.16:26
* Jaffa nods. That's my understanding as well.16:26
timsamoffIt has been rather annoying being a COuncil member and not having access to everything.16:27
qoleI think that would be a good project for us this term, set up some kind of project or structured thing with Nemein16:27
JaffaBut "all" is a bit nebulous as there's still Akamai CDN in front of maemo.org AFAIK, which means they do.16:27
timsamoffRIGHT.16:27
Jaffaqole: Agreed.16:27
timsamoffSo... As the new Council can see, there are still quite a few issues floating around.16:27
SD69qole:  yes to Nemein16:27
JaffaIIRC, X-Fade contracts through Nemein, so Nemein management (e.g. bergie) could act as manager and both could be involved in meetings/planning with the council.16:28
fcrochikqole: a full body could be really useful :)16:28
timsamoffAnd, if I may speak for Jaffa as well, he and I are always available to speak about these things in a more organized manner via email, or a specific meeting.16:28
JaffaIn terms of upcoming stuff, the "Council" isn't involved in MeeGo Conf sponsorship decisions for SF in May; but I'm on the four-person committee as a MeeGo community member (apparently ;-))16:29
Jaffatimsamoff: Indeed.16:29
qolethe sprint meeting thing never really worked very well, but if we just had a project board somewhere and we could ping them regularly about it...16:29
timsamoffqole: We definitely decided against future Sprints, as there weren't any pressing development projects within the maemo.org infra anymore.16:30
JaffaWhat was not done last term: justify the council - but I'm still not sure that should be an ongoing shouty thing. It costs nothing to have, and if it adds value in specific ways (e.g. CSSU contributions; acting as a bridge between Nokia/Nemein and the community and facilitating within the community, it's doing a valuable job)16:30
JaffaAnd, as qole says, they never worked well16:30
JaffaSee how often the "MUSTs" got deferred from one month to the next.16:30
SD69Jaffa: are there any Council action items for MeeGo conf ?16:31
timsamoffSD69: Not that I know of.16:31
JaffaSD69: Nor me.16:31
JaffaApply for sponsorship. Have a good time.16:31
* timsamoff lols16:31
DocScrutinizerha16:32
timsamoffAll right... Agenda Item 4: Past Council reflections/comments16:32
JaffaI'd still make a strong case to qgil, dawnfoster & Brian the LF guy that the Maemo Community Council are valuable people to have at this conference, as they were at the last one.16:32
* timsamoff agrees.16:32
JaffaMore so if Nokia pull their finger out and release the Harmattan device ;-)16:32
timsamoff;)16:32
timsamoffWith two outgoing Council members here, this Agenda Item may be short. But, I think we may have been the most vocal anyway...16:33
qoleThe Maemo community really is the only Linux handset community16:33
Jaffaqole: Agreed.16:33
Jaffatimsamoff: ;-)16:33
timsamoffSo, some comments from me and Jaffa...16:33
JaffaThere's been some reflection above - but my biggest one would be: everyone should be chipping in on council@ discussions16:33
timsamoffYes.16:33
timsamoffBut...16:33
timsamoffThe new Council needs to figure out of they are the last Council or not.16:34
JaffaToo often the Council ends up with one or two people seemingly doing all the heavy lifting16:34
timsamoffThis needs to be an active and public discussion.16:34
Jaffa(I'd argue not)16:34
JaffaHowever, I'd possibly support a referendum on a three-person council & 12-month terms.16:34
timsamoffSo, as a community member, we can offer such opinions, but really the decision and effort to pass these referedum are up to the Council, yes?16:35
JaffaI think the old school maemo.org folks are going to be expecting something too N900 like from the Harmattan device. But since it was developed for the mainstream, a lot of people may keep their Maemo <= 5 devices. And maemo.org will continue.16:35
Jaffatimsamoff: Indeed.16:35
qoleI would argue that this is the last council if we can't get enough people to have an election...16:35
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SD69timsamoff: yes but with your input16:35
fcrochikI don't think we will see many candidates for a longer term....if any...16:35
timsamoffSD69 Sure.16:35
SD69the future is so uncertain16:36
qoleIt doesn't seem very useful to have five community members stand up and and say, 'we are your new council'16:36
JaffaThere's also increasing pressure from the MeeGo community, and some Intelians, that Nokia *don't* get an exception to call Harmattan MeeGo. This might put a big spanner in the works for the Harmattan community.16:36
Jaffafcrochik: Perhaps.16:36
SD69the desire for mobile linux is not16:36
timsamoffLets keep it Maemo 6. ;)16:36
Jaffaqole: The problem, as I see it, is you need somebody in the community to be able to take decisions in the event of big things.16:36
qoleI think trying for a 3 person council is a good idea...16:36
Jaffae.g. C&D letters.16:36
qole(next term)16:36
fcrochikqole: me too16:36
Jaffae.g. Nokia pulling the funding16:36
JaffaAlthough, as you'll have seen, that's a remote possibility for *now*16:37
JaffaAlso, making the decision to put banners all over maemo.org when the CSSU launches to encourage all N900 users to install it ;-)16:37
timsamoffI foresee the Maemo Community shrinking over the next year or so... So, the Council will have to be quite vocal in organizing community efforts (site maintenance, app dev, etc.).16:37
timsamoffThe CSSU will help a lot in this.16:38
JaffaI think that's my reflections over.16:38
DocScrutinizer3-council - yep16:38
fcrochikabout that: who is involved ?16:38
SD69CSSU is important16:38
timsamoffBtw, the current maemo.org userlist is something like 30,000... These aren't active users of course. But, anyway... Stated for no other point than to alert the new Council what they're dealing with.16:38
Jaffafcrochik: MohammadAG is the maintainer. Various people (Sc0rpius, thp, merlin1991 and many others have been contributing as well).16:39
timsamoffPerfect time for Agenda Item 6: New Council comments/questions16:39
JaffaI've been helping "manage" it, and supplied patches etc.16:39
SD69New council needs good communications with CSSU16:39
fcrochikI have to say that I haven't heard/seen enough of the CSSU effort...granted I didn't go looking for it.... but if it is such a big piece we need to make people know about it16:40
JaffaSuggest sitting on #maemo-ssu, as that's the simplest way of seeing what's going on on a daily basis.16:40
Jaffafcrochik: It's still in a testing phase16:40
SD69I have not been following CSSU16:40
qoleI have to say, the concept that Nokia might not be allowed to use MeeGo for Harmattan raises all sorts of interesting questions16:40
JaffaSD69: Helping deal with the TMO threads and/or how to use TMO effectively for testing/assistance is something I'm uncertain of.16:40
timsamoffI would love if Mohammed was given Blog access on maemo.org in order to communicate development, etc. This is "official" (community-wise) enough to be something suuported on the m.o website./16:41
fcrochikJaffa: is there something like a web page with the "done" , working on,... ?16:41
Jaffatimsamoff: Well, AIUI, a new blog could be created.16:41
fcrochikI would love to see the subprojects, source code being changed, ....16:41
Jaffafcrochik: http://j.mp/communityssu-bugs shows open bugs, open enhancement requests, fixed stuff which hasn't yet shipped.16:41
timsamoffIf our community keeps going down the community-driven path, the site might even need to be redesigned around the CSSU a little.16:42
timsamoffBut, this would be a huge effort.16:42
Jaffafcrochik: Source is all under http://gitorious.org/community-ssu. But more stuff on http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Development would be good16:42
qoleMohammed can have a blog on Planet, no?16:42
SD69I agree with giving CSSU blog access16:42
Jaffaqole: He already does; but doesn't like blogging too much16:42
JaffaSorry, he doesn't much like blogging16:43
qoleha, so that isn't going to change if he has an official blog :)16:43
timsamoffBut, if a COuncil member who liked blogging could take it on, etc.16:43
Jaffaqole: I wouldn't be surprised (re: MeeGo/Harmattan) if it's actually part of the contracts when Nokia/Intel/LF set MeeGo up. But the official line is "we'll ask the TSG for an exception"16:43
fcrochikI think we need a "voice"  for it.... someone that can translate code into accomplishments!16:43
SD69or an ex council member familiar with CSSU16:43
qoleMaybe I should try to give high-level updates to the CSSU on the Council blog...16:43
Jaffatimsamoff: Indeed. Or the Council could help find people who *do* like blogging to be involved.16:43
timsamoffSo... That's one of the jobs of the Chair/Council to figure these things out.16:43
timsamoffRight... I LOVE getting bullet lists and translating them into blog posts... Really.16:44
timsamoffSo, tap me to do somethig like that.16:44
Jaffamerlin1991 has been leading the effort to keep the changelog up to date:16:44
Jaffahttp://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Changelog16:44
timsamoffIt would be really cool to do a CSSU howto video series too... ;)16:45
timsamoffAny more questions from the new Council?16:46
JaffaIt probably is time for the Council blog to have another "why not contribute to the CSSU?" http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU#Contributing ;-)16:46
DocScrutinizeryep16:46
qoleSo there's not much chance of Harmattan getting called Maemo 6 and the Maemo community getting re-invigorated?16:46
timsamoffAt some point, contributing to maemo.org would just mean contributing to the CSSU, right?16:46
fcrochikI would like to see " why not install cssu"?16:46
* timsamoff agrees!16:47
Jaffaqole: I'd *very* much doubt it. Nokia's been telling the press "we're releasing a MeeGo device this year"16:47
Jaffafcrochik: Please don't encourage newbies to do so though, unless they're willing to suffer a reflash.16:47
DocScrutinizerI would prefer "why to install CSSU *now*"16:47
timsamoff;)16:47
JaffaAlthough it would be good to start a conversation about how the CSSU goes from -testing to stable16:47
SD69can you talk about relationship and interaction with MeeGo community?16:47
qolefrcochik has a very good point, at some point the CSSU will become Maemo16:48
Jaffaqole: Indeed.16:48
timsamoffSD69: Currently, it's very informal.16:48
timsamoffSome people cross the lines, some don't...16:48
JaffaSD69: The Council has no official position within the MeeGo community and most people in the Maemo community wouldn't recognise it.16:48
timsamoffWe also have this with webOS and iOS.16:48
SD69friendly?16:48
timsamoffDefinitely friendly.16:48
SD69cooperative?16:48
timsamoffNo yet...?16:48
JaffaThe Maemo community members on MeeGo media (e.g. mailing lists & fora) get along well.16:48
timsamofftexrat would know more.16:49
JaffaSD69: Things like Community OBS being used to target MeeGo, Harmattan & Fremantle suggests cooperation; yes.16:49
fcrochikhaving maemo as a target for the meego OBS would be great!16:49
JaffaThe new council might want to take on more of a bridging role between forum.meego.com and talk.maemo.org.16:49
timsamoffThere are common conversations on both.16:49
JaffaCertainly it's enough of a chore to set aside time to check TMO without having to do the same for FMC as well16:49
SD69has there been discussion about open source activities around next Nokia device?16:50
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JaffaSD69: Not from the Council. Nokia seem to want an open source community, as they had with Maemo.16:50
timsamoffHi Attila!16:50
JaffaSD69: So Community OBS does the same as the Extras autobuilder.16:51
JaffaSD69: And there're some workflow tools which can be used to do the same crowdsourced QA process as Extras-testing.16:51
DocScrutinizerJaffa: but it seems they want to buy it or get it as a s gift.16:51
timsamoffI think the benefit of the os community is hard to avoid. But, I hope it doesn't become a "this is how we suppliment our lack of empolyees on a certain project", etc.16:51
qoleThe next Nokia device is going to be problematic in terms of community...16:51
JaffaSD69: X-Fade and lbt are the folks involved, and there've been some comms about it on meego-* mailing lists.16:51
Jaffaqole: Indeed.16:51
Jaffaqole: Personally, I've no interest in going back to a device with corporate involvement at 770 levels.16:52
SD69qole: yes, maemo.org and Meego could both get behind it...16:52
JaffaI've liked the journey we've been making towards the mainstream, the increasing commercial focus and marketing16:52
timsamoffOk, everyone... Unfortunately, I have to go. But, I don't want to discourage you from continuing.16:52
SD69or not...16:52
timsamoffI would like to thank you all again for attending. I'll send out the meeting minutes later today.16:52
qoletimsamoff, thanks for your help and organisation!16:53
SD69timsamoff: thanks for your past service16:53
Jaffaqole: There are two schools of thought - it's a dead-end, don't bother OR we can make it such a success that Nokia's board reconsiders their medium-term plans16:53
Jaffatimsamoff: Thanks16:53
fcrochiktimsamoff: and please don't go anywhere....16:53
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timsamoffRemember, I'm always on email.16:53
Jaffatimsamoff: See you in May, hopefully16:53
timsamoffAnd, still onthe council@ email alias.16:53
achipasorry about the delay... apparently my pim died along with the rest of my install16:53
timsamoffJaffa (and everyone) for sure!@16:53
timsamoffHave a great day/evening.16:53
achipatimsamoff: see you and thanks !16:53
SD69Jaffa: or someone else sees the value16:53
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villevfrom community perspective, harmattan will be "Qt + Linux" system which ought to be enough to bother, for many16:54
qoleIt will be tricky getting a centralised forum for the Harmattan community. It was hard enough with t.m.o. and the mailing lists16:55
fcrochikis there any reason the only asnwer MUST be meego?16:55
achipaI don't think anybody has a clear vision on this 'harmattan community' thing16:55
villevI wonder wheter continuing with tmo would be the easiest way16:55
qoleNow the Harmattan community will spread across t.m.o., meego forums, plus ... who knows? I suspect Reggie will be tempted to start a new forum16:56
SD69should maemo.org just assume to be the place for the Harmattan community forum?16:56
villevif harmattan becomes platform-non-grata among meego community...16:56
fcrochikSD69: that makes sense to me but it feels is on nokia's hands16:56
DocScrutinizerqole: that's what I fear wll happen with maemo-devels as well16:56
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: I feel somehow it has happened already16:57
achipaqole: AFAIK meego.com forums are a no-go, at least that was dawn/quim's stance a while back16:57
DocScrutinizerharmattan being the poison to kill off maemo development and also not really ending in a proper meego16:57
SD69fcrochik: Nokia can't put in on MeeGo voluntarily16:57
SD69they can only ask16:57
achipaDocScrutinizer: I thought the poison was in this context WP716:58
villevhey, tmo already has a harmattan forum so there is no concrete action to take even ;-)16:58
DocScrutinizerno devel will leave maemo5 for wp716:58
SD69see: http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/harmattan-meego-community16:58
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Indeed. Not even the free WP7 phone promised me will get me to faff with Silverlight development16:59
achipaSD69: that's what corporate talk says is 'forward looking statement'16:59
qoleSD69 thanks16:59
SD69an N950 (or whatever) forum16:59
JaffaI bet Reggie will try and start a new forum - maybe the one he set up alongside forum.meego.com will be "it"17:00
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villevharmattan development is bascally meego development + some extra attention to packaging17:00
qoleJaffa, I started to type that and then stopped17:00
Jaffahttp://forum.allaboutmeego.com/17:00
achipathe question is why exactly do we need another forum ? just because of the name ?17:00
SD69Jaffa: we still have the community at maemo.org17:00
JaffaSD69: Indeed17:00
SD69it's hard to move people to new places17:01
SD69speaking of which...17:01
villevincidentally, having harmattan in meego forums could invigorate those17:01
villevas they don't seem to be too active compared to tms17:01
villevtmo17:01
Jaffaachipa: Well, Harmattan developers asking about debian packaging probably won't be *too* welcome on *.meego.com. And won't thing to go to *.maemo.org unless they started there17:01
qoleYes, because people will buy the Harmattan device, think it is cool, want to join the community, and they won't know where to go17:01
Jaffavillev: No device => not much activity17:01
achipavillev: that's quite a gambit17:01
SD69any discussion last term about domain name?17:01
JaffaSD69: Domain name of what?17:01
thpJaffa: if it's a subforum of meego.com, i think that won't be too much of a problem?17:01
SD69maemo.org17:02
Jaffathp: _Probably_ not. Assuming the MeeGo project is happy for it.17:02
JaffaSD69: No, there was no discussion of it.17:02
achipaJaffa: well it's still easier to put a traffic sign on meego.com to go to maemo.org than play country-within-a-country17:02
JaffaSD69: Changing it could be an enormous infrastructure project, let alone the rebranding and confusion17:02
achipaIF that is the final choice17:02
DocScrutinizerachipa: ++17:03
sjgadsbyLast I heard, there weren't to be per-device/per-manufacturer subforums at meego.com. Manufactuers are to set those up elsewhere.17:03
Jaffaachipa: Indeed; I'm not sure *.maemo.org is the right place for Harmattan either.17:03
villevforum.meego-related.com17:03
Jaffasjgadsby: That fits with my understanding as well. Which is a bit bonkers17:03
qolesjgadsby is right, unfortunately. That's the meego policy17:03
DocScrutinizerJaffa: let alone my bookmarks ;-P17:03
thpit might also become obvious once it's clear if harmattan will be "marketed" as maemo 6, meego or something completely new17:03
sjgadsbymeego.com is for the open bits only.17:04
qolemaego17:04
JaffaIf there really was no clause in the original MeeGo contracts between LF/Nokia/Intel regarding Harmattan and the MeeGo TSG says "no" (but they never say no to anything; except Smeegol)17:04
villevthp: so far the public message (even post feb11) is that harmattan is meego-related devce17:04
SD69Jaffa: agreed, my worry is Nokia could pull the plug on us17:04
JaffaSD69: See comms. Budget is likely for at least 12 months17:04
JaffaNokia would be in a PR mess if Harmattan != MeeGo17:05
achipaSD69: that's one thing the council needs to follow and prep for (but as Jaffa says, it does have a timeframe)17:05
SD69Jaffa: and then?17:05
sjgadsbybakesales17:05
JaffaDonations17:05
JaffaAdverts17:05
JaffaCutbacks17:05
DocScrutinizerJaffa: nokia *IS*...17:05
Jaffa+ Bakesales17:05
SD69begging17:05
achipaguys, that's a lot bigger scope than what we can decide on irc17:06
sjgadsbyraffling off dinners with qole17:06
fcrochikit feels that one year from now whatever is left of the maemo community will have a very different profile....17:06
JaffaBut as maemo.org community diminishes, the costs'll go down so it's cheaper for Nokia to keep running => keeps going longer => more people leave.17:06
SD69achipa: let's at least ask Nokia17:06
JaffaIt might be the case that if/when the plug *does* get pulled, there are so few people affected, it's not a problem.17:06
qoleIt should be an interesting year, what with more Linux based mobile OSes coming out all over17:06
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: I hope it will not17:07
JaffaSD69: Did you get my email containing the reply from Tero on *exactly* this topic (as part of the council handover material)17:07
achipaSD69: we did, and Tero Kojo came back with whatever he knew17:07
qoleThe Samsung OS looks like it will have a lot in common with Maemo17:07
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: mee to... but I believe that if you don't move forward the only other option is moving backward....17:07
achipawe can't ask every other week 'are we dead yet' ? when the cancel window is 6-12 months17:07
SD69jaffa: yes17:07
achipaqole: Maemo5, to be precise, quite a bit far from Harmattan17:08
SD69can we keep maemo.org up and running w/o Nokia funding?17:08
achipaSD69: in it's full extent, no17:08
DocScrutinizerqole: yes, like the worst of maemo - "too much blue"17:08
SD69I'm worried in no extent17:08
JaffaSD69: As I said, there'd need to be cutbacks.17:08
SD69post 2/1117:08
JaffaSD69: Pfft, websites aren't that hard to run.17:08
qoleachipa, what will be the big differences with Harmattan? Other than Qt?17:09
JaffaThis is why getting the autobuilder replaced with MeeGo Community OBS is important.17:09
achipaSD69: Jaffa: the biggest loss as discussed would be the nemein guys, as if something breaks, it's game over17:09
JaffaCos the autobuilder is one of the hardest things to replicate.17:09
fcrochikDo we have any "hard figures" on how the community has changed since the begining of meego?17:09
qoleDocScrutinizer, yes, waaaay too much blue. :(17:09
villevJaffa: that work is done by nokia anyway17:09
Jaffavillev: What work?17:09
SD69achipa: I agree Nemein is key17:09
villevJaffa: cobs for harmattan17:10
Jaffavillev: Yes, but I mean COBS for Fremantle.17:10
villevright, sorry17:10
villevwhat's the status with that anyway? lbt sort of did it?17:10
achipaqole: isn't that enough (we're not talking just applications, but system level involvement) ? obviously can't tell anything about governance differences as I don't know how Sammy intends to run it17:11
JaffaGarage could be decommissioned (over time) by encouraging people to gitorious.org for VCS and bugs.maemo.org for bug tracking. No idea about mailing lists - groups.google.com or talk.maemo.org17:11
DocScrutinizerseems to me we first of all need a shadow-backup system so if plug gets pulled inadvertently we have some infra to crank up wiki, repos etc on a community based infra17:11
Jaffavillev: It's sort of half prototyped17:11
JaffaDocScrutinizer: We *have* a community-based infrastructure and although I don't have bandwidth issues on my colo box (ATM), who is going to want to mirror everything for something which is 12 months away, if ever?17:12
villevgarage could be decommissioned already, I don't see much point17:12
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Although it would be good to do, and find out the limits and scope of what's needed17:12
fcrochikso it seems that we have at least two action items for the new council: CSSU and maemo5 in Meego OBS17:12
Jaffavillev: It can't be turned off overnight as there's loads of software on there.17:12
DocScrutinizerJaffa: aah OK, good17:12
achipanote that we HAVE to talk to Niels/David about that. Currently they are kind-of Ronins... I trust them to do the right thing, but still, to avoid 'ooh, I thought you though...' situations17:12
Jaffavillev: And migrating SVN history to git repos17:12
SD69fcrochik: Nemein is an action item17:12
achipaDocScrutinizer: no inadvertent plug-pulling - this is done through contracts and they have expiration clauses17:13
SD69someone has to sort that out and at least get some transparency17:13
fcrochikSD69: I agree...17:13
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fcrochikSD69: It seems that we need some old project management over it17:13
SD69I know Jaffa has tried in the past17:14
villevyeah Jaffa, but a set of mails to members + 6 month warning period could do wonders17:14
Jaffavillev: Yes, did I not say "over time"? ;-)17:14
Jaffavillev: And you said "right now"17:14
Jaffavillev: And then I corrected you and now we agree ;-)17:14
DocScrutinizersorry, wnated (not) to ask since 60min... WTF is nemein?17:14
SD69Nemein runs our infrastructure17:15
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: I believe is the company behind the maemo.org maintenance17:15
SD69I'm not sure if we do indeed "own" our infrastructure17:15
achipaDocScrutinizer: Nokia subcontractor who actually runs maemo.org (Niels, Henri, etc)17:15
villevJaffa: we agreed in the beginning as well. just inexact wording due to external disruptions :)17:15
fcrochikI assume we don't have any saying on what Nemein does, do we?17:16
fcrochikthe contract is between Nokia and them and it feels like they hold the keys....17:16
Jaffafcrochik: The Council has full say.17:16
achipafcrochik: on the contrary - though our 'will' is applied indirectly17:16
SD69fcrochik: I agree17:16
Jaffafcrochik: Nemein run the infrastructure, paid by Nokia, *for* the community; with the Council acting as the representatives of the community17:17
fcrochikJaffa: but can we decide anything? like we want to spend this one month worth of development doing A?17:17
JaffaBut see earlier comments about transparency.17:17
Jaffafcrochik: Theoretically. I wouldn't manage it *quite* like that, and there's business-as-usual (BAU) stuff to be kept ticking along no doubt17:17
achipafcrochik: ideally, yes, in reality we had 'difficulties' ,but that need just more pushing/persistence17:17
SD69A shadow-backup system is desireable17:17
Jaffae.g. security patches to the infrastructure; log rotation; general housekeeping17:18
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fcrochikJaffa: even then... it would be great to at least know that we can only expect "X" hours other than infrastructure17:19
DocScrutinizeron a sidenote it's amazing "we" face similar problems with our infra at openmoko17:19
achipaSD69: backup of what ? repositories are already mirrored... t.m.o is elsewhere, wiki can be mirrored... what else ?17:19
Jaffafcrochik: Agreed17:19
Jaffaachipa: Midgard for /downloads & /packages over the repo17:20
JaffaSD69: Autobuilder would be too expensive to replicate in any way which made it useful.17:20
Jaffa(I think)17:20
SD69achipa: if Nemein has no objections, then great17:20
DocScrutinizerwiki MUST be mirrored17:20
achipaJaffa: that's going to need some legal clearance, don't know who *owns* that17:20
DocScrutinizerwiki is maemo communities cortex17:20
achipaJaffa: (as in sources, scripts, whatnot)17:20
Jaffaachipa: Which bit? The source is open17:20
achipaJaffa: of midgard or the actual site ?17:21
Jaffaachipa: Both17:21
JaffaIt's in garage.17:21
* achipa is uninformed17:21
JaffaWould be good to start getting some more community contribution to *that* aspect17:21
JaffaBut it's not very well documented17:21
JaffaBut if there's no-one going to maintain of the source to the site, maintaining it running is of little point ;-)17:21
achipafcrochik: yes, plus it gets difficult if they happen to need to work on something they can't discuss with us (because of NDA, contract, you name it)17:22
achipaJaffa: that's what I'm saying. Sources are worth little without maintainers17:23
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Jaffaachipa: Agreed17:23
qoleso is the meeting going to have an end time, or is this the informal chat time that will just sortof peter out?17:23
qoleI ask because I need to eat breakfast17:23
JaffaUp to the new council now ;-)17:23
achipaHey, if I close my IRC client, I'm done for, so...17:24
DocScrutinizerqole: I'm waving :-)17:24
Jaffaachipa: Can you rebuild your system through '/exec' commands in your running IRC client? ;-)17:24
achipa(had  a little... 'accident' yesterday, doubt my machine could reboot)17:24
qoleI can hang out some more but I was wondering if there was any more business17:24
Jaffaachipa: I saw your... rant :-)17:25
achipaJaffa: I sort-of tried to re-apt everything, wasn't quite brave enough to reboot17:25
SD69qole: I think it's chat time17:25
Jaffaachipa: Have an Ubuntu live CD nearby?17:25
DocScrutinizergod luck to new Council! :-D17:25
DocScrutinizergood even17:25
qoleachipa, I told you to take a lenovo ideapad!17:25
* DocScrutinizer afk17:26
achipaqole: I tried to, but was too honest !17:26
JaffaThanks DocScrutinizer17:26
qoleDocScrutinizer, thanks, we'll need it17:26
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SD69should new council email later today?17:26
fcrochikSD69: I think so.... maybe start our list of action items and assign roles....17:26
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SD69DocScrutinizer: thanks for your comments17:27
qoleI can write a blog thing17:27
achipaJaffa: managed to start xterm via QtCreator which was running at the time, that saved me17:27
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: yes.... thanks to all....we will need all hands on deck! :)17:27
qoleI can try to be a pale timsamoff imitation17:27
SD69qole: sounds good17:27
fcrochikqole: I can't imagine you being pale on anything :)17:28
SD69I enjoy your humor17:28
fcrochikanybody here has final plans for the meego conf?17:28
Jaffaachipa: Ouch. Can you write up a blog post? It can challenge that old "we rescued a system by hex editing a file over uucp"17:28
Jaffafcrochik: Depends on sponsorship17:29
JaffaHoliday booked from work, though17:29
achipafcrochik: depends on whether Nokia foots the bill17:29
fcrochikJaffa: that sounds like one more important action item for the new council....17:29
Jaffafcrochik: Which bit? Book your work?17:30
fcrochikJaffa: talking to the meego "friends" ....17:30
achipaJaffa: might do the blog thing... when I cool down sufficiently :)17:31
fcrochikthe last meego conf was actually my first one... but I can't imagine one without the maemo people! it felt like all the community activities were around maemo people17:31
achipafcrochik: that's because we are the ones with the community :)17:32
qolefcrochik, that's because meego is still mostly a business entity, not a community17:32
fcrochikthat is exactly my feeling....I hope Nokia/17:32
fcrochikMeego, LF sees the same way17:32
fcrochik(that was the action item) :)17:33
Jaffafcrochik: I'm on the deciding committee, so I won't forget where I came from :-)17:34
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achipaJaffa: deciding on... ?17:34
qolepancakes are ready, I'm off!17:34
Jaffaachipa: MeeGo Conf sponsorship17:34
fcrochikJaffa: great! I assume a "maemo council" appeal won't hurt, right?17:34
achipaqole: bon appetit !17:34
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Jaffafcrochik: Indeed. Council is a strong argument for me (and, to be fair) everyone else last time17:35
achipaJaffa: oh that. well, I'm not too electrified by that since in the end I did pay for the tickets out of my own pocket17:35
achipaJaffa: and while Dublin is bearable, SF is just a wee bit to big of a bill to risk it again17:36
JaffaIndeed. 700 quid airfare!17:36
JaffaOff now. Idling.17:37
fcrochikJaffa: thank you!17:37
SD69fcrochik: achipa: qole: I'm off now.  Will catch up later on email17:38
achipaSD69: aye, see ya !17:39
SD69Thanks again everyone17:39
fcrochikyes... me too.... thank you!17:39
DocScrutinizerI seem to recall GAN900 prodded me to apply for meego conf sponsoring. I might ask how to proceed on that17:43
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: When you register there is a checkbox17:43
DocScrutinizerfunny. I'd never had considered registering without knowing I got the monetary side sorted17:44
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: the sad part is that the registration forces you to make a hotel reservation (you will need a credit card)17:49
DocScrutinizerso the situation is that I'm all with achipa - too expensive, too risky17:49
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: you can cancel w/o problems17:50
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: if you don't get the sponsorship.... unfortunately, that may be my case as well....17:50
DocScrutinizernot worth the effort it seems. Won't fly anyway.17:50
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: I would try if I were you. Can't hurt!17:50
fcrochikIf nothing else it will help them see that we are "still here"17:51
DocScrutinizerit eats my time and energy for nothing, as for sure the sponsoring obviously isn't a 100% one17:51
achipaDocScrutinizer: Umm, my story is a bit special - I did get sponsorship but then had issues with the reimbursement17:51
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: takes 5minutes and it was 100% last time.... flight and hotel17:52
DocScrutinizerhmm17:52
DocScrutinizer5 minutes doesn't sound too bad17:52
achipafcrochik: well yes, at least I didn't have to pay for the hotel17:53
DocScrutinizerachipa: reimbursement is no option here, as it would mean I'd have to risk the same17:53
DocScrutinizerand I even doubt the 700 figure of Jaffa17:54
DocScrutinizerhmm, maybe when booked early17:54
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: last time, they first approved the expense but you had to purchase yourself... I did not have any trouble at all with reimbursement...maybe it was first time luck :)'17:55
DocScrutinizerI'm not going to take that risk17:56
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: at least ask for...17:56
DocScrutinizer(plus that annoyance to find the money for paying in advance)17:56
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: they actually reimbursed me before I had to pay the creditcard.17:57
DocScrutinizerI have no creditcard17:57
DocScrutinizerkthnxbye17:57
achipafcrochik: I expect the only one to have problems was me, because of being on two lists, maemo and company17:57
achipafcrochik: don't think anyone else had that problem17:57
fcrochikachipa: that is what you get for being so special :)17:58
achipafcrochik: and as a bonus I got to NOT get the ideapad :P17:58
fcrochikachipa: by the way, at some point, I would like to go back to the kiss application...17:58
achipafcrochik: DO THAT ! I kinda got tired being a one man band with that17:59
fcrochikachipa: I am sorry... of course, you should have plenty of phones to play with that may work much better :)17:59
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: see what I mean by "not worth the effort" and also the 5 minutes don't seem to fit17:59
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: what happened?17:59
DocScrutinizereh?17:59
achipafcrochik: well, a tablet is a tablet is not a phone, and gadget envy is hard to control :)17:59
DocScrutinizerI never ever had any credit card18:00
fcrochikachipa: that was my point: I don't care for tablets but a cool harmattan phone :)18:00
DocScrutinizerand I'm not going to ask my friend to pay the tickets and hotel in advance for me, maybe I get them reimbursed by Nokia18:00
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: I envy you! :(18:00
achipafcrochik: I have NOOOO idea what you're talking about18:00
* achipa whistles18:00
fcrochikachipa: I hear you :)18:01
achipaDocScrutinizer: it's not Nokia who reimburses, but the Linux Foundation18:01
DocScrutinizerwhoever, my friend won't care18:01
DocScrutinizertoo much hassle18:01
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: I know it is a tuff sell but unfortunately last time there was no way around....18:02
achipaDocScrutinizer: and usually you can pay the hotel by wire-transfer (even though they will frown in the US because of that)18:02
DocScrutinizerbook the hotel for me, send me the tickets, I'm happy to join. Otherwise, too bad, but I'm not suffering18:02
fcrochikI don't think you have to pay for the hotel....18:02
fcrochikjust the flight18:02
fcrochikif approved they will take care of the hotel and your credit card will never be billed18:03
fcrochikachipa: do we have any information about the traffic on the web site, active users, trend, ... ?18:03
DocScrutinizerwell, it seems GAN900 was keen to meet me at SF, I'm not going to push this. If "the meeting" thinks they need me, they will invite me and send tickets and hotel reservation. Otherwise nm18:04
achipafcrochik: premade, no, but we can ask for them18:04
achipa(I guess the only formally generated ones are the download stats from the repos18:05
fcrochikachipa: I think it is important to see how the community is reacting to the news (since meego)... even make this information publicly18:05
fcrochikachipa: for my applications I noticed a slow down... especially on comments/complaints/ ...18:06
achipafcrochik: yes, I don't think anybody doubts that we were bleeding people... the osbourne effect is never kind18:08
achipathe current stats have little meaning ,though, in that context because the N900 is not manufactured any more...18:08
GAN900DocScrutinizer, the reimbursement setup is unfortunately unforgiving to those on thin margins.18:08
fcrochikachipa: but I think that is important to know that we are (much) more than a small bunch of die-hard fans18:09
GAN900DocScrutinizer, hotel is paid as a block by LF.18:10
GAN900So just plane tickets.18:10
DocScrutinizerGAN900: toldya they don't need a notorious meego-critic on that conf ;-D18:10
fcrochikDocScrutinizer: a real community needs critics!18:10
fcrochikalways!18:10
achipafcrochik: those who cared, know, and those who don't, won't be convinced by any numbers18:10
GAN900DocScrutinizer, hey, I got sponsorsed to the last one.18:10
DocScrutinizerI won't18:11
DocScrutinizeras I'm not playing the credit card game18:11
fcrochikachipa: good point but I still think there is a small class in between.... a lot of members would like some reassurance that they are not alone....18:11
GAN900Fair enough. Maybe the Fall conf will be in Germany.18:12
fcrochikGAN900: long time! how are you?18:12
GAN900fcrochik, pretty well. You?18:13
DocScrutinizerlast time I visited USA I needed a visa, nowadays seems visa or mastercard will both do :-P18:13
GAN900. . . tired of my current employment and ready to change, but liking the networking opportunities it gives me.18:14
fcrochikGAN900: still kicking... as you can tell haven't learned how to use irc yet...18:14
fcrochikGAN900: looking for something in particular (not that I can help...just curious)?18:15
GAN900Hehe, conversion rates are low there. ;) I never did manage to get Texrat in on it.18:15
GAN900Something that'd actually be useful on my resume.18:15
fcrochikGAN900: resumes are overrated... :)18:16
GAN900Working at the bookstore still. Which is mostly useful because awesome projects fall in my lap every other week.18:16
* DocScrutinizer ponders starting a job at a bookstore o.O18:17
GAN900Got to do the photography for one local history book18:17
GAN900working on a second one now18:17
GAN900doing promotional and project-pitch videos for some of the big artists in the area18:18
GAN900got in with the director of the DalĂ­ Museum.18:18
fcrochikGAN900: that reminds me of a app I saw for symbian...  a sushi "guide" ...nothing more than nice pictures....18:18
DocScrutinizerthat's strange, how did you get to contact the head of the pipe you're managing the outlet18:18
DocScrutinizerI'm not assuming the author of a book visits a bookstore prior to starting his new project, asking about how the best way to sell it once it's finished18:19
GAN900You'd be surprised.18:20
GAN900But it wasn't even that.18:20
GAN900The store is something of a local cultural focal point.18:20
DocScrutinizeraaah18:20
GAN900There's a local postcard collector who's been coming in for a while and got to talking with my manager about her book plans.18:21
GAN900She had the idea and a publisher, but needed somebody to do the photography.18:21
GAN900Bingo18:21
DocScrutinizerhere we only got that kinda stores for SIGs, mostly women's bookstores (which are a poor start for me ;-D )18:21
DocScrutinizergeneral bookstores are more like supermarkets here18:22
fcrochikGAN900: don't you have some good sets of photography to show the world?18:22
GAN900DocScrutinizer, mostly the same here, but we're the biggest new/used in the Southeastern US.18:23
DocScrutinizerooh18:23
GAN900Been open since 1933 (yes, that's old for FL)18:23
GAN900The family have been movers and shakers in the book business for 4 generations.18:23
GAN900fcrochik, http://www.flickr.com/photos/generalantilles/18:24
GAN900But unfortunately none of these awesome projects pays very well (or at all in most cases)18:25
GAN900and I'm working retail in the mean time. <_<18:25
GAN900Got an offer to help put together an iOS application for a health insurance processing company.18:26
GAN900But, iOS.18:26
DocScrutinizernot too bad18:26
DocScrutinizerbut, health insurance - BLAERGH18:26
fcrochikGAN900: very cool!18:27
DocScrutinizerbeen there, did that. OMFG18:27
DocScrutinizerCOBOL   XP18:27
GAN900Hehe18:28
GAN900They're mostly based around Filemaker.18:28
DocScrutinizerthe *new* system, while the old one which was our "specs" was entirely written in assembler ! :-o18:29
GAN900Ha18:29
GAN900That sounds frighteningly precarious.18:29
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DocScrutinizeryeah, and they needed a new faster system as the old one took 3 months CPU time to aggregate and distribute the 3 months worth batch of 50 billion records of like 10 million customers18:31
GAN900Health insurance paperwork is out of control.18:32
DocScrutinizerhere in Germany for sure it is18:32
GAN900I dunno how we let it get to the point where all the prices are half going to pay for paperwork.18:32
GAN900Government efficiency at work, I guess. ;)18:33
DocScrutinizerkinda18:33
DocScrutinizerassociation of medical doctors, collecting the records of like 10.000 offices and summing up and distributing them to like 350 ensurances18:34
DocScrutinizerthen collecting the money from each insurance company and distributing to the doctors18:35
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