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| X-Fade | hi all | 10:00 |
|---|---|---|
| achipa | hi | 10:00 |
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| X-Fade | It seems we are a bit light today :) | 10:00 |
| sandman_ | good morning everybody | 10:01 |
| achipa | let's wait a few more minutes ;) | 10:01 |
| X-Fade | hi sandman_ | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | (what meeting's scheduled?) | 10:03 |
| X-Fade | We're going to talk about Qt and Qt experimental packages in Extras. | 10:04 |
| achipa | "discuss the future of Qt | 10:04 |
| achipa | libraries in Extras-devel." | 10:04 |
| achipa | well, try to, anyway :) | 10:04 |
| Stskeeps | ah, i'll listen in then | 10:04 |
| sandman_ | good morning everybody (got a date with the dentist), but from what we talked yesterday, it seems that much was already discussed via email | 10:06 |
| sandman_ | s/good morning everbody/ btw: harryf won't show up today/ | 10:06 |
| X-Fade | sandman_: It seems that you are the only one then ;) | 10:07 |
| sandman_ | from Qt? yes | 10:07 |
| X-Fade | I feel we need to discuss more, especially about officially supported versions and experimenta in Extras. | 10:08 |
| X-Fade | Especially what happens when an experimental version becomes stable/supported. | 10:08 |
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| sandman_ | our proposal would be to either publish 4.7 snapshots as qt4-experimental-* to extras-devel, or to publish them in our own repo on Qt servers | 10:09 |
| X-Fade | The issue isn't really where they are published, but that a plan needs to be made about transitioning and preventing a mess. | 10:10 |
| sandman_ | we somehow need to provide devs with 4.7 snapshots until PR1.3 (when 4.7 will officially replace 4.6 in the firmware) | 10:11 |
| X-Fade | And will you push things like qtm linked against PR1.2 or against a snapshot? | 10:12 |
| sandman_ | qtm is a snapshot right now - qtm will become an official, stable part of Qt together with 4.7 | 10:13 |
| X-Fade | Ok, so from then on it will be published either in firmware or in nokia-apps. | 10:13 |
| sandman_ | I don't know about the plans, since that isn't done by us here in Munich, but by the Brisbane team | 10:13 |
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| achipa | sandman_: there was a notion from Kate that there will be a stable version for 4.6, in Extras | 10:13 |
| X-Fade | Problem is that once PR1.3 is there we then need to rip it out again. | 10:14 |
| sandman_ | from Qt's side there will be no offiial QtM release for 4.6 (at least that *I* know of) | 10:14 |
| X-Fade | There doesn't seem to be a lot of thought going into the consequences of doing these tricks in extras. | 10:15 |
| sandman_ | our (Qt's) plan should be to publish Qt and QtM 4.7 snapshots (either extras-devel or another repo) once PR1.2 is out | 10:16 |
| sandman_ | as soon as PR1.3 is around the corner we move 4.7 into the firmware | 10:16 |
| X-Fade | We need to see if we can prevent dual installs of Qt as much as possible though. | 10:17 |
| sandman_ | *we* don't want to move to extras | 10:17 |
| sandman_ | snapshots -> e-d / stable -> firmware | 10:18 |
| X-Fade | No, me neither ;) | 10:18 |
| sandman_ | whatever Kate and F-N are doing is out of our hands though :) | 10:18 |
| X-Fade | Just need to make developers aware that using qt4-maemo5 is really the experimental part. | 10:18 |
| sandman_ | yes - that name is way too generic | 10:19 |
| sandman_ | we'll change that | 10:19 |
| achipa | plus, don't forget your bindings, whatever you do, we need to follow | 10:19 |
| X-Fade | They expect this to be the qt library to use and then get bitten. | 10:19 |
| achipa | (pyside, pyqt et al) | 10:19 |
| sandman_ | do we really need bindings for snapshots? | 10:19 |
| * sandman_ is a hardcore C++ coder :P | 10:19 | |
| X-Fade | I feel bindings should really track stable. | 10:19 |
| sandman_ | yes | 10:20 |
| X-Fade | And if they want to track experimental, then they need to be renamed as such? | 10:20 |
| achipa | err | 10:20 |
| achipa | this is in complete contradiction with what the PySide team does | 10:20 |
| X-Fade | So there is a clear divide between official 'will not break' and experimental? | 10:21 |
| sandman_ | I think this comes from the fact that the old official Qt 4.5 on the device was not really usable | 10:21 |
| sandman_ | so it made more sense to track the unstable 4.6 | 10:21 |
| sandman_ | I guess everybody should adapt to the new situation where the official 4.6 is to be preferred over an unsupported snpshot | 10:22 |
| X-Fade | So how about removing qt4-maemo5 after PR1.2 release? | 10:22 |
| achipa | sandman_: qtm and qml, there's the reason this will happen again (and harryF agreed on this :) ) | 10:22 |
| sandman_ | achipa: then you need a pyside-experimental package to go along with the qt4-experimentl packages | 10:23 |
| sandman_ | (and don't complain if we break things on a daily basis :) ) | 10:24 |
| sandman_ | X-Fade: we will remove them and replace them with qt4-experimental 4.7 packages | 10:24 |
| X-Fade | sandman_: Well that is where you need me. | 10:24 |
| X-Fade | You guys think too generic :) | 10:25 |
| achipa | do you think it would be a bad idea to have a qt4-experimental METApackage ? | 10:25 |
| sandman_ | rm -rf qt4-maemo5-* ? ;) | 10:25 |
| achipa | and then we could ha depend in on semi-stable devel snapshots ? | 10:25 |
| X-Fade | sandman_: Not as simple as that, but in the end that is what happens then yes. | 10:26 |
| achipa | (this is what essentially Qt does with TP, beta1, beta2, rc, etc) | 10:26 |
| sandman_ | achipa: qt4-experimental-dev does that already (more or less) | 10:26 |
| achipa | sandman_: but that does not shield us from bleeding edge breakages | 10:27 |
| sandman_ | achipa: we won't follow the exact Qt 4.7 release schedule, since we have our separate repo and need to merge and test first | 10:27 |
| achipa | aha, ok | 10:27 |
| sandman_ | achipa: that's why it's called experimental :) ... really you can't expect something 100% stable from an unreleased product | 10:28 |
| achipa | (the problem is that the chain can get long - snapshot of qt, snapshot of the bindings, snapshot of qtm, it's enough to have an oops in just one of them and dozens of apps break) | 10:28 |
| X-Fade | That is why I think we should stress that experimental is just that. | 10:28 |
| X-Fade | Not inteneded to be use by anybody below the advanced hacker. | 10:29 |
| X-Fade | *used | 10:29 |
| sandman_ | achipa: once again - we think it's a good idea to provide binary snapshots to make other dev's lives easier, so they do not have to compile Qt themselves | 10:29 |
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| X-Fade | hi sbradley. | 10:29 |
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| sandman_ | sandman_: whatever you (or Pyside or pyqt) will do with it is something we can't and won't control | 10:29 |
| sbradley | hi, have I missed much? | 10:30 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: hi - just half an hour :) | 10:30 |
| kate_ | Hi, i just joined, sorry being late, dentist appointment took longer than expected | 10:30 |
| achipa | hi | 10:31 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: After PR1.2 release, removal of qt4-maemo5 from extras-devel | 10:31 |
| X-Fade | qt4-maemo5 to be renamed to qt4-experimental | 10:31 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: are there plans from Brisbane's side to publish QtM packages for 4.6 ? | 10:31 |
| sbradley | sandman_: I believe we'll just be using the "official" Qt releases for the QtM dependencies | 10:32 |
| sbradley | so 4.6 until 4.7 becomes the official supported version | 10:32 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: And publish them through official repos? Or extras-devel? | 10:33 |
| sbradley | extras-devel but promoted to extras | 10:33 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: Are these official Nokia supported versions? | 10:33 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: will those be binary compatible (4.6 and 4.7 QtM) ? | 10:33 |
| sbradley | X-Fade: yes, we wont be publishing unstable snapshots (at least not initially). just the official QtM releases | 10:34 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: Then they should not go to extras. | 10:34 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: Then they should go to Nokia-apps. | 10:34 |
| X-Fade | So they are available for everybody with the proper firmware and available from Nokia. | 10:35 |
| X-Fade | Otherwise once QtM gets in PRX.X, there will be a conflict. | 10:35 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: X-Fade: BIC handling needs to be clear though - otherwise we get in a huge mess with PR1.3 | 10:36 |
| sbradley | sandman_: I believe so (I'll need to check); it's just dynamically linked to Qt so it shouldn't matter whether it was built against 4.6 or 4.7 | 10:36 |
| X-Fade | We had that mess with Qt4.5.3 in extras and I really want to prevent that. | 10:36 |
| X-Fade | Officially supported libs should come from the official source. | 10:37 |
| X-Fade | And extras is not that. | 10:37 |
| kate_ | For QTM, i expect there should be unstable versions as early as possible with qt4-experimental | 10:37 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: the thing is not the Qt dependency, but the the API of the QtM libraries (read: can a app compiled 4.6 QtM run against a 4.7 QtM version) | 10:37 |
| sandman_ | if NOT, we need to name the packages differently | 10:37 |
| sbradley | sandman_: yeah, there's only one version of QtM (1.0), it's not related to the Qt versions | 10:37 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: ok - good :) | 10:38 |
| sandman_ | so I'm with X-Fade on this one - move them to nokia-apps as soon as these packages are stable and final | 10:39 |
| kate_ | There will be a lot of development for QtM after current release, as example IM and Presence are still coming to next versions | 10:39 |
| X-Fade | package domains will otherwise really bite us later. | 10:39 |
| sbradley | what's the process for getting stuff into nokia-apps? | 10:39 |
| sandman_ | kate_: then put those in e-d and make them depend on the upcoming 4.7 snapshots (qt4-experimental-*) | 10:39 |
| kate_ | About official QtM, earliest Maemo version where it will be official part will be PR1.3 | 10:39 |
| kate_ | Before PR1.3 QtM must be extras ? | 10:40 |
| X-Fade | I'm not against having experimental qtm in extras-devel as long as it is named qtm-experimental and linked against qt4-experimental ;) | 10:40 |
| sandman_ | we should really only have 4.6 stable and 4.7 snapshot packages after PR1.2 | 10:40 |
| sandman_ | not a mix of 4.6-stable, 4.6-snapshot and 4.7-snapshot | 10:41 |
| sbradley | sandman_: I believe 4.6 snapshots will be stopped once 4.7 is out | 10:41 |
| X-Fade | Yes, so qt4-maemo5 will be removed. | 10:42 |
| sbradley | and agreed, we need clear "experimental" type naming. it's a bit confusing at the moment | 10:42 |
| X-Fade | That leaves us with qt4 in Pr1.2 (4.6.2) and qt4-experimental in -devel (4.7-snap) | 10:42 |
| kate_ | When Qt4.6 and Qt4.7 are binary compatible, is there any reason make QtM linked Qt4.7 or should we handle issue with something LD_LIBRARY_PATH etc | 10:42 |
| sandman_ | X-Fade: Qt is decided - the question is now QtM | 10:43 |
| X-Fade | kate_: Problem is more on the debian package side (dependencies) | 10:43 |
| kate_ | If we do so, one version of QtM should work with both Qt4.6 and 4.7 | 10:43 |
| kate_ | The debian dependencies can be for Qt4.6 but if you would like use Qt4.7-experimental, set LD_LIBRARY_PATH | 10:44 |
| sbradley | if the 4.7 packages have a different name we could just use an OR dependency, so 4.6 or 4.7 work | 10:44 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: i guess QtM 4.6 will be released when Qt 4.7 is released, right? | 10:44 |
| kate_ | I think that QtM release will be very soon, for PR1.2 | 10:44 |
| sandman_ | sbradley: kate_: Qt 4.6 and 4.7 will be binary compatible and will both be called libqt4-* | 10:44 |
| achipa | sbradley: btw that was how I destroyed extras with PyQt :) | 10:44 |
| sbradley | yeah the first (non-beta) QtM release is happening soon | 10:44 |
| X-Fade | Then let's see if we can get that QtM release in nokia-apps. | 10:45 |
| kate_ | And first official QtM will be for 4.6 and it will live in extras ? | 10:45 |
| kate_ | Then when we got PR1.3 it will be part of the system | 10:45 |
| sandman_ | kate_: no - in nokia-apps | 10:45 |
| sandman_ | it's provided and supported by Nokia after all | 10:46 |
| sandman_ | let me summarize a bit: | 10:48 |
| sandman_ | 1) remove qt4-maemo5 (4.6) after PR1.2 | 10:48 |
| sandman_ | 2) upload Qt 4.7 snapshots as qt4-experimental to e-d afterwards | 10:48 |
| sandman_ | 3) as soon as 4.6 QtM is released, get those packages to nokia-apps | 10:49 |
| sandman_ | 4) remove 4.6 QtM from extras devel | 10:49 |
| sandman_ | 5) maybe upload new QtM packages to e-d, but only for qt4-experimental (4.7) and with 'experimental'in the pacakge name | 10:50 |
| sandman_ | 6) PROFIT :) | 10:50 |
| sbradley | hehe | 10:50 |
| achipa | X-Fade: would it be more good or more harm if we had a sort of provides: qt4-maemo5 in the qt4-experimental packages ? | 10:50 |
| X-Fade | I like that list. | 10:50 |
| achipa | (to help the transition) | 10:50 |
| sbradley | yeah, sounds good | 10:51 |
| kate_ | And QML will be only with Qt4.7-experimental | 10:51 |
| sbradley | what's the process for getting stuff into nokia-apps? | 10:51 |
| sandman_ | achipa: makes sense | 10:51 |
| sandman_ | kate_: yes | 10:51 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: I'll have to find out who is responsible for that | 10:51 |
| achipa | might I add a 7) recommend bindings to follow the same nomenclature | 10:52 |
| sandman_ | achipa: you might ;) /me always forgets about binding | 10:52 |
| achipa | (so that we don't have a 'pyside' package that depends on experimental, as that defeats the whole point of clear naming) | 10:52 |
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| sandman_ | achipa: someone needs to forward that to the pyside/pyqt maintainers though | 10:53 |
| X-Fade | tekojo: Do you know who is responsible for nokia-apps? | 10:53 |
| tekojo | The repo? | 10:53 |
| X-Fade | yep | 10:53 |
| achipa | sandman_: I *am* the pyqt maintainer for Maemo ;) | 10:53 |
| tekojo | I can find out | 10:53 |
| sandman_ | achipa: i can never remember if you're the pyqt or pyside maintainer, so I made the statement generic :P | 10:54 |
| achipa | sandman_: will forward the conclusions to PySide folks :) | 10:54 |
| achipa | (though the binding maintainer pains are bigger as we can't get away with a simple ldconfig/path trick :( :) ) | 10:55 |
| achipa | one more question, rather mundane, but one I got a LOT of requests for/about | 10:56 |
| achipa | QMaemo5HomescreenAdaptor | 10:57 |
| achipa | (for Maemo desktop widgets) | 10:57 |
| sandman_ | what's wrong with it? | 10:57 |
| achipa | it's currently in e-d, but not as a lib, but as an included example class | 10:57 |
| achipa | is it going to be included in the QMaemo5 module at some point ? | 10:57 |
| sandman_ | achipa: it won't be included, as it is not a supported part of Qt - it's a creative friday project from Ralf, that we decided to polish up and publish for everyone as an OS project on gitorious | 10:58 |
| achipa | the problem is twofold - one, people include it and forget about it - so we can't provide any updates should they be necessary - and that can mean breakage | 10:59 |
| sandman_ | achipa: I'm not sure about the lib/example packagin - I need to talk to harryF and Ralf first | 10:59 |
| sandman_ | achipa: let's talk about that on #qt-maemo this (european) afternoon | 11:00 |
| achipa | sandman_: okay | 11:00 |
| X-Fade | sbradley: I will follow up on the nokia-apps part. | 11:01 |
| sandman_ | so - is everybody ok with my summary? | 11:01 |
| sbradley | X-Fade: thanks | 11:01 |
| sbradley | sandman_: yes | 11:01 |
| kate_ | OK | 11:01 |
| X-Fade | sandman_: yes from my part. | 11:01 |
| achipa | sandman_: yes | 11:01 |
| tekojo | to get into nokia-apps the packages need to go to the internal integration queue | 11:01 |
| sandman_ | ok - then I guess we can get back to coding :) | 11:02 |
| kate_ | Remember that QtM has some extra dependencies, libtpsession and modest-plugin that lives in extras-devel | 11:02 |
| X-Fade | kate_: Those would need to move then too. | 11:03 |
| sandman_ | QtM stable for 4.6 or experimental QtM for 4.7? | 11:03 |
| kate_ | Yes, i just wanted remind | 11:03 |
| kate_ | QtM stable, they are adaptation layers needed for messaguing | 11:03 |
| sbradley | actually yeah, there's also those bearer dependencies that I believe we don't want to officially support | 11:04 |
| achipa | X-Fade: you okay with the temporary Provides: libqt4-maemo5 thing ? | 11:04 |
| X-Fade | achipa: If that really helps? | 11:04 |
| sbradley | libconnsettings, libconninet and libicd-network-wlan-dev | 11:04 |
| achipa | X-Fade: well at least we don't insta-break EVERYTHING qt related in extras-devel | 11:05 |
| achipa | X-Fade: as qt4.7 is supposed to be binary compatible and all | 11:05 |
| * sandman_ is off - I have another meeting | 11:05 | |
| X-Fade | Thanks all! | 11:06 |
| * achipa thanks & off | 11:06 | |
| sbradley | thanks | 11:07 |
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