IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2016-12-06

*** dafox has quit IRC00:00
*** till[m] has joined #maemo00:00
*** dafox has joined #maemo00:03
*** at1as has quit IRC00:04
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo00:28
DocScrutinizer05this simply means: don't use maemo-thumb, it's not going to get any more maintenance00:31
DocScrutinizer05I tried for quite some time now to come up with any other interpretation00:32
DocScrutinizer05btw not like we discussed this maemo extras thumb  repo thing the first time today00:34
*** dafox has quit IRC00:41
*** xorly has quit IRC01:00
* Wizzup has all his n900s on thumb01:03
WizzupPost rejected. As a new member, you are only allowed to post a minimum number of links in your post. Hit the back button on your web browser and edit your post. Thanks.01:13
Wizzupeh.01:13
Wizzupjoys of using a new account01:13
Wizzuphttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1520074#post152007401:22
Maxdamantusare the thumb issues present in mainline kernels?01:27
*** jon_y has quit IRC01:34
*** jon_y has joined #maemo01:36
*** fishbulb has joined #maemo01:39
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: *new* account?? what the heck...?01:43
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: I couldn't figure out what address I used for my old one01:43
WizzupI had a username and password written in my password files, but they didn't work01:44
DocScrutinizer05ugh, ask maintainer!01:44
WizzupSo I gave up and didn't want to postpone writing the post01:44
WizzupYeah, I will, but it's not top priority atm :)01:44
DocScrutinizer05:-)01:44
DocScrutinizer05kudos for post (only read first 2 lines so far)01:44
DocScrutinizer05wouldn't that thread rather belong to http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58 ?01:45
WizzupI promised to write it some time ago, and there's still a lot to do, but it's a good start, I hope01:45
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: could be, but in the end it may also run on things other than the neo90001:46
*** Gadgetoid has quit IRC01:46
Wizzupand right now it's kind of hard to test on the neo900 :) so we use allwinner tablets or n900 or other01:46
DocScrutinizer05NeoFremantle is not about Neo90001:46
Wizzupah, sorry.01:46
WizzupYes, then probably that may be a better place.01:46
DocScrutinizer05sorry I can't move threads *into* 'my' subfora01:47
WizzupI need to get some sleep, let's see if we can get it moved tomorrow or so (some redirect for a bit would be nice)01:48
DocScrutinizer05nope you can't, only your own posts01:49
Wizzupyeah, I meant asking someone01:49
DocScrutinizer05redirect is always implied01:49
DocScrutinizer05automatically01:49
DocScrutinizer05for forum admins it's a matter of literally 3 clicks to move a thread around01:50
Wizzupack01:50
WizzupI need to get some sleep first :-)01:50
DocScrutinizer05you may *absue' the 'report post' feature01:50
DocScrutinizer05"please move this thread to http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58" - done01:51
DocScrutinizer05;-)01:51
DocScrutinizer05will automatically show up on the task list of those who are in charge01:52
DocScrutinizer05oooh, maybe you as a 'new user' would not have the "report post" button enabled?01:53
*** Gadgetoid has joined #maemo01:53
DocScrutinizer05if there's no such button uper right of every post, I can do that on your behalf01:54
DocScrutinizer05only will do so when I got sth to quote with a clear request to do so01:54
DocScrutinizer05otherwise I'd receive bashing for egoistic motivations for that01:55
WizzupI'll try to do it tomorrow.01:55
DocScrutinizer05np, just offering to help01:55
DocScrutinizer05repost the line above and I'll copy it to the requester ;-)01:56
*** Pali has quit IRC02:08
*** _maniac_ has joined #maemo02:10
*** Gadgetoid has quit IRC02:26
*** Gadgetoid has joined #maemo02:33
*** buZz has quit IRC02:33
*** florian has quit IRC02:34
*** Gadgetoid has quit IRC02:37
*** buZz has joined #maemo02:56
*** buZz is now known as Guest2790602:57
*** Guest27906 is now known as buZz02:59
*** Redhair has left #maemo03:15
*** erstazi_ has joined #maemo03:18
*** erstazi has quit IRC03:19
*** erstazi_ is now known as erstazi03:20
*** krnlyng has quit IRC03:25
*** krnlyng has joined #maemo03:39
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo03:56
*** trumee has quit IRC03:56
*** stryngs_ has quit IRC04:02
*** stryngs_ has joined #maemo04:02
*** Kabouik has quit IRC04:10
*** trumee has joined #maemo04:32
*** pagurus has quit IRC04:34
*** pagurus has joined #maemo04:34
*** trumee has quit IRC04:44
*** trumee has joined #maemo04:57
*** infobot has quit IRC04:57
*** stryngs_ has quit IRC05:09
*** jonwil has joined #maemo05:51
*** lxp1 has joined #maemo06:01
*** lxp has quit IRC06:04
*** sunshavi has quit IRC06:11
*** NotKit has joined #maemo06:11
*** TheKit has quit IRC06:15
*** povbot has joined #maemo06:33
*** Xxaxx has quit IRC07:16
*** Xxaxx has joined #maemo07:17
*** CatButts has quit IRC07:18
*** KotCzarny has quit IRC07:19
*** CatButts has joined #maemo07:19
*** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC07:53
*** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo07:53
*** KotCzarny has joined #maemo08:02
KotCzarnyhaving packages to depend on thumb target enabler is nice idea, but how would that react to having same package compiled for thumb and nonthumb?08:02
*** drrrz has quit IRC08:08
*** fishbulb has quit IRC08:37
*** Mek has quit IRC08:43
*** arcean has joined #maemo08:58
*** Mek has joined #maemo09:12
siceloi do agree with FMG that N900 is not going to last forever ... just it is painful to think of the possibility that the N900 could be abandoned :(09:23
*** dafox has joined #maemo09:23
KotCzarnyi have 2 spares09:26
KotCzarnyand since it fullfills my phoning needs its not going away anytime soon09:26
KotCzarny(and has oscp, of course)09:27
*** zama has quit IRC09:27
*** zama has joined #maemo09:29
sicelo:)09:37
deepysicelo: have you seen the neo900?09:38
DocScrutinizer05sicelo: it's not even the point of any discussion that literally nothing lasts forever. Nevertheless it's a tad bewildering when the author of thumb says it's not worth supporting it any longer09:41
siceloNeo900 yes I saw it .. but I can't afford anything, not even the AllWinner tablets09:41
siceloi support Neo project of course09:43
KotCzarnywitha a bumper sticker? ;)09:43
*** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo09:43
bencohDocScrutinizer05: well, the only reason behind thumb is save ressources on a low-memory device09:44
bencohs/only/main/09:44
DocScrutinizer05no09:44
DocScrutinizer05thumb is the real armel, while maemo's armel is crippled since it doesn't allow thumb09:45
bencohthat's not the point...09:46
DocScrutinizer05and since the kernel patch needed for N900 OMAP-crap already exists, the maemo-extras-thumb repo is the one that really has a future, while the maemo-extras repo is the one that eventually gets obsolete09:46
DocScrutinizer05thus declaring thumb an obsolete effort makes zilch sense to me09:47
siceloApple time! :)09:50
sicelohaha09:50
bencohkrkr09:50
*** dafox has quit IRC09:52
DocScrutinizer05or let me put it very simple and obvious: when I'd be going to install maemo on a BeagleBoard-xM or a Pyra or a Neo900, I'd for sure use a maemo-extras-thumb and CSSU-thumb instead of the plain maemo, since why would I want to forbid thumb code on all those platforms?10:00
DocScrutinizer05in CSSU-thumb maybe the kernel patch gets obsolete eventually. In maemo-extras only those apps get obsolete for which a maemo-extras-thumb build exists. All apps in maemo-extras-thumb and the apps in maemo-extras that have no thumb build will _not_ get obsolete before no OMAP device around anymore10:10
jonwilI will continue to use my N900 until one of 3 things happens:1.It breaks in a way that cant be fixed 2.My carrier makes a change that prevents me from continuing to use the N900 anymore or 3.I am able to afford and justify something to replace it that is genuinely better (right now I cant justify a Neo900 because there is no point replacing a perfectly good N900)10:11
jonwili.e. you can have my N900 when you pry it from my cold dead hands :)10:12
DocScrutinizer05:-)10:12
jonwilI wouldn't use something like a crApple iFail or a Galaxy even if someone gave me one for free10:12
DocScrutinizer05welcome to the club10:13
KotCzarnyi wouldnt mind if someone remade the case of n900 into better kb one (similar to 5510)10:14
*** ecloud_ is now known as ecloud10:15
*** herekun has joined #maemo10:16
*** florian has joined #maemo10:18
MoeIcenowyis Neo900 stlil alive...10:18
DocScrutinizer05sure, why not?10:21
jonwilAnother benefit of the N900 is that so few people use it that the virus writers aren't going to bother writing viruses for it and will focus on the popular platforms (iPhone, Android, Windows, OSX, linux servers)10:22
jonwilalthough that doesn't mean much given how weak the security is10:23
KotCzarnysecurity by obscuruty is a poor one10:23
deepyIäm pretty sure in reality they have the shotgun approach10:23
KotCzarnyand old linux kernel/libs almost ensures working sploits10:23
DocScrutinizer05that's a good reasoning, and I follow it in a number of areas. E.g. my main browser still is Konqueror10:23
jonwilwriting viruses doesn't come cheap10:24
jonwiland I doubt they are going to spend the money to write a virus for an outdated little-used phone platform when that same money could generate a lot more infections on a Windows platform10:24
jonwilor an iPhone platform10:24
jonwilthat doesn't mean improving the security of the N900 isn't a good idea (it is)10:26
DocScrutinizer05improving security is always a good idea... as long as it's not done ala Aegis or Apple10:27
jonwilFinding a way to get the newest TLS standards (and newest cipher suites) into the N900 microb browser is definatly something I want to see happen (although I lack the skills and knowledge to actually help with it)10:27
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: did you look into the kbd blob thingie in maemo?10:28
jonwilwhich kbd blob?10:28
*** eMHa__ has quit IRC10:28
DocScrutinizer05the one that handles the sticky Fn and shift keys and all that stuff10:29
*** eMHa__ has joined #maemo10:29
DocScrutinizer05and thr symbol vkbd10:29
*** pagurus` has joined #maemo10:29
jonwilI dont know which package handles all that10:30
MaxdamantusWhich bit about Apple is bad? The fact that Apple has to sign the OS at the time of installation, or the fact that applications are proerly sandboxed?10:30
jonwilbut no, I dont have any reverse engineering going on of any of the remaining closed-source blobs10:30
* Maxdamantus likes the latter thing, not the former thing.10:30
DocScrutinizer05we spotted it a month or two ago10:31
KotCzarnyjonwil: problem is you wouldnt have to write new, just use any of combo sploits, and most likely it will work10:31
jonwilThe issue I have with Apple is that you need to pay money to be able to write and distribute apps for the devices, something you dont need to do for most distribution platforms/.10:32
jonwilYou dont need to pay money to be on the Android store10:33
jonwilor the Amazon store10:33
jonwilor the Windows store10:33
MaxdamantusYeah, that's related to why Apple has to sign the OS at installation.10:33
Wizzupjonwil, KotCzarny, did you see this thread? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1520078#post152007810:33
KotCzarnywizzup: yup, but im hacking something else atm10:35
*** pagurus` has quit IRC10:36
bencohDocScrutinizer05: regarding vkbd on maemo, I'd tend to thing we should just move away from it and try integrating ibus10:36
*** pagurus` has joined #maemo10:36
Wizzupjonwil: likely related to your thread here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9388910:36
jonwilThe biggest issue with Fremantle-on-new-hardware right now is the incomplete PulseAudio blobs10:37
jonwilalso the cellular daemons10:38
DocScrutinizer05https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2010/07/15/sending-smses-with-empathy-and-telepathy-ring/10:38
MaxdamantusWhy do you need the PulseAudio blobs for non-N900 hardware?10:39
DocScrutinizer05aiui that's the perfect API spec for all such "cellular daemons" we'd need for another modem10:40
jonwilFor the Neo900 we need them10:40
DocScrutinizer05except audio10:40
Wizzupjonwil: right, but I don't think the porting efforts are at that point yet, at least the porting efforts I am thinking of10:40
jonwilsince we are planning to make the Neo900 run the same Fremantle software stack10:40
*** pagurus` has left #maemo10:40
Wizzupjonwil: well...10:40
KotCzarnycan pa blobs be used on mainline kernel or they are tied to specific version?10:40
WizzupKotCzarny: you can use old PA on new kernel10:41
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: this is about the fremantle software stack, maemo fremantle is using telepathy-ring10:41
DocScrutinizer05afaik10:41
jonwilyes I know10:41
Wizzupjonwil: I think some recent efforts seem to be on getting h-d and other components based upon devuan/debian, and move whatever is worth keeping there10:41
Wizzupwe may still be able to run the old PA on top of that10:41
Wizzupbut for other devices, we may not need the PA modules, and even so, they *can* be REed10:41
KotCzarnywizzup, or make it selectable on install10:42
jonwilYes the PA blobs can be REd10:42
Wizzupbut right now I am not sure if that's the main priority10:42
jonwilits just that no-one with the needed skills has shown any interest in finishing the work.10:42
Wizzupas in, once we get to the point where we can run devuan with maemo settings and some other programs, like xterm, and some wifi, on my tablet, (and then consequently, on the n900 again), I'd look into it10:42
jonwilThere seem to be several different related goals here:10:43
jonwilFirst is being able to upgrade the N900 Fremantle software stack so its more modern and replacing outdated versions of things with new things (e.g. can we replace microb with a non-sucky browser?)10:44
Wizzup(quick interjection - I am interested in many maemo porting efforts, just not one that pours a lot of effort but does not contribute to the end goal, e.g. modern sw stack)10:44
jonwilThis may also tie into CSSU and the goal of improving the Fremantle stack10:44
DocScrutinizer05PA is no problem anymore I'd think. The remaining non-REed PA blobs are utterly not-needed for another modem. xprot is needed to avoid nuking your speakers in N900 when you're dense enough to pump up the volume and wait till magic blue smoke escapes10:45
Wizzupfreemangordon: I found this post, too - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?s=f198d88a1d3da561bbfec0ccc2ae2e84&t=91308&page=1710:45
DocScrutinizer05the PA-nokia-speech(?) is improving quality of voice calls but not exactly mandatory even for N900, it can get replaced by a "cat" dummy10:45
Wizzupjonwil: so, my 'personal goal' here would be to get whatever is useful from fremantle, and 'free' it from the old maemo distro, and make it run on a modern base, e.g. devuan/debian. And then, make *that* run on the n900 again10:46
WizzupWhile in the process, ensuring it's also viable for other things -- tablets (for usage), qemu images (for testing), etc10:46
Wizzupat any point more things from fremantle can be ported over, of course10:47
Wizzupand one can even imagine a full chroot-kind setup (if required) with maemo compat layers where that would be required for older 'apps'10:47
*** geaaru has joined #maemo10:48
WizzupI'm just not interested in very old kernels and sw, that is even more my beef than an aging browser, but I'm sure the things are inherently related10:48
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: where would you stop on such effort? OHM? PA? alsaped? mce? calendar?10:48
DocScrutinizer05((nherently related)) yes, that's exactly the point10:49
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: well, I would aim for base bones first. and then port over anythign that is deemed useful10:50
Wizzupnote that you can always port over more10:50
WizzupI would likely stop when it comes to wifi-specific daemons, for example10:50
WizzupSince they serve no purpose outside of fremantle and only cause headaches for devuan, for example10:51
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo10:51
DocScrutinizer05or would that "compatibility layer" be xephyr on wayland for running hildon-desktop in a window of debian then?10:51
WizzupWhere one can easily use any of the other wifi daemons (wpa_supplicant + some frontend)10:51
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: the compatibility layer I meant could be some hack to export the same dbus interfaces, and a chroot with old maemo rootfs + x forwarding over unix socket10:52
Wizzups/base bones/bare bones/10:52
jonwilI think this DefCon video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cgtr7VW7gY has some interesting ideas that might help us out10:52
Wizzupso clearly, applications that directly interface with the closed wifi daemon won't work anymore10:52
Wizzupbut that's likely not a problem :)10:53
MaxdamantusX would just be handled by having /tmp/.X11-unix bind-mounted; don't need forwarding.10:53
WizzupMaxdamantus: yeah, that is what I meant, but sure10:53
Wizzupwrong terminology10:53
DocScrutinizer05(wifi) some savvy devel, (was it timeless? crashndie?) sighed loudly "I wish Nokia had opensourced ICD!! It's so much better than any of the other connection managers existing"10:53
DocScrutinizer05err prolly not ICD10:53
DocScrutinizer05or yes?10:53
jonwilWith the PulseAudio blobs we could take the secret sauce algos (i.e. the bits that make voice sound good) and have our own pulseaudio-blah plugin just call into pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice and call the secret bits.10:54
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: in all honesty, it's probably best to surrender here and use networkmanager10:54
* Maxdamantus would be happy enough just using wpa_supplicant.10:54
Wizzupjonwil: to work around abi problems with newer PA?10:54
KotCzarnyi wholeheartedly hate nm10:54
WizzupKotCzarny: me too10:54
Wizzupbut it might offer a simple dbus interface to wifi10:54
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: why a chroot?10:54
Wizzupidk, ok, maybe nm is not the best10:54
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: if you want to use the old pkg managers as well. it may work with ld_library_path and so, but the exact details don't matter IMHO10:55
DocScrutinizer05o.O10:55
MaxdamantusDocScrutinizer05: because it's there to handle legacy stuff that hasn't been installed as part of a newer distribution.10:55
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: (at this point)10:55
WizzupMaxdamantus: right, but I recall that DocScrutinizer05 doesn't like using chroots to prevent mixing old and new libs10:55
DocScrutinizer05I don't see need for *any* of that10:55
jonwilto work around both ABI issues if we move to a newer PA and to work around the need to replace some things in pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice (e.g. the bits that talk cellular call audio) and keep using the bits we haven't yet cloned from the Nokia blob10:55
DocScrutinizer05maemo IS devuan10:55
Wizzupso very soon we'll be talking about SONAMEs10:55
Wizzup:p10:55
Wizzupjonwil: yeah10:56
jonwilI actually wrote a tool to rip functions out of a binary into an obj file myself for a totally different project (this was for Windows PE files and Windows COFF obj files)10:56
Wizzupjonwil: if that doesn't give trouble with mixing glibc versions in the same process10:56
jonwilBut whats in that video (talking about re-using bits of binaries on Windows)10:57
jonwilI mean on linux10:57
jonwilmakes sense10:57
DocScrutinizer05old and new libs can easily coexist in linux, unless somebody completely messed up10:57
bencoherr10:57
bencohit "can" yeah10:58
DocScrutinizer05ooh Wizzup beat me to it10:58
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: right, but to prevent conflicts and packages installing over other pkgs, isolation may be easier, not to mention that it may be easy/doable at all to merge the package managers, and so on10:58
jonwilHeck we could potentially even do what I am doing on Windows and rip the bits we still need out of the shared library into a static obj file that gets linked into our shared lib.10:58
Wizzupjonwil: still, if the modules are in the same process, old/new glibc may mess you over10:58
Wizzupe.g. new PA want new glibc, binary old PA wants old glibc10:59
DocScrutinizer05huh?10:59
Wizzupcan't mix that in one process10:59
bencohWizzup: glibc? how comes?10:59
jonwilI am sure you can load multiple versions of glibc into a single process10:59
Wizzupuh... are you? OK10:59
WizzupI wasn't so sure about that10:59
WizzupWhich one will set up the signal handlers, then ;-)10:59
Wizzupetc10:59
bencohI'm pretty sure it'd be a freaking mess ;)11:00
DocScrutinizer05why would you want old PA?11:00
bencohDocScrutinizer05: because of old nokia modules I guess11:00
Wizzupfor n900 modem voice/audio quality11:00
DocScrutinizer05no need11:00
DocScrutinizer05also I understood you're focusing on NON-N900 target platforms more than on N90011:01
KotCzarnytbh, this is #maemo, not #n900 ;)11:01
DocScrutinizer05and as elaborated above those modules will be mostly pointless on any other platform with another modem11:02
KotCzarnyit only happens that only/mainly maemo runs on n900 nowadays11:02
Wizzupthe end goal is to have it running on the n900 as well, of course11:04
*** amospalla has quit IRC11:04
Wizzupbut we don't need burden every platform with old PA blobs for that.11:04
*** amospalla has joined #maemo11:05
jonwilIn any case if/when we want the secret bits for the Neo900 FPTF project (or otherwise want them) there are ways we can get at them that dont require reverse engineering them completly.11:06
MaxdamantusI'm pretty sure it won't just load multiple versions of glibc.11:06
Maxdamantusie, ld-linux won't do that for you.11:06
bencohpretty sure as well11:06
Maxdamantusyou can of course use dlopen/dlsym yourself to load separate instances.11:06
jonwilAnd if we did something similar to what I am doing on Windows, we could make it completly independent of libc versions as well through stubs.11:07
bencohwhich prolly won't work properly because part of the glibc functions will be looking for global resources11:07
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: let me tell you a story about a similar project called OM. They based the OS on Aegstrom / Openembedded and the result was that literally *everything* you are used to from a normal linux got ripped out since "for embedded you don't need users or authentication or file owners/permissions or...". Then they reinvented the wheel for arain everything except a lot of stuff that didn't get added til today. E.G users, so SHR afaik still11:08
DocScrutinizer05runs everything as root.  The parallels I see here are: why would you want to make piecemeal with porting only a 5% bare bones core stuff to e.g. Devuan, when it's so much simpler to port Devuan core stuff to maemo?11:08
bencohwtf?11:10
bencohwhat does that even mean, porting devuan core stuff to maemo?11:10
jonwilI am still getting nowhere with my entry for the coding contest :(11:10
DocScrutinizer05what does "port maemo to another disrtro" mean? maemo IS a distro11:11
*** Kabouik has quit IRC11:11
bencohDocScrutinizer05: that's why they/we only talk about porting maemo bits to <insert distro here>11:12
DocScrutinizer05sorry I fail to see the purpose11:13
bencohhave a maemo-like phone-friendly environment on top of a modern ecosystem?11:13
DocScrutinizer05what the heck is the difference between Devuan and maemo 2ecosystem"?11:14
bencohyou've always been focusing on old apps compatibility (sw wise) and n900 droppin replacement (hw wise), but ...11:14
bencohDocScrutinizer05: as it stands the two are just "incompatible", ie welcome to dependency hell11:15
bencohso I have to "rebase" your ecosystem in some way11:16
bencohs/I/you/11:16
KotCzarnyisnt opensource about ability to recompile packages if need arise?11:16
DocScrutinizer05new kernel? FMG is pretty much there - on maemo! New glib? I think that's projected in CSSU since ages, and yes *there* we might need LD_PRELOAD for old apps. App Manager? I think Devuan also uses apt11:17
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: different end goals.11:17
DocScrutinizer05so you don't want to port maemo, you want to change it11:17
Wizzupfreedom: I want the fremantle stack (the useful) parts available for other distros, not just stuck to maemo. 2) Maintenance - OUTSOURCE AS MUCH AS WE CAN - by piggybacking on the back of other distros11:18
WizzupOnly this way we can ensure that we will keep a modern base11:18
WizzupThis also means porting to gtk3, qt5, whatever is out there11:18
WizzupI don't see any point in taking whatever 'devuan core' is and putting it back into maemo11:18
Wizzupthat will become, I think, an unmaintanble mess, which leads to ... no maintainers11:18
DocScrutinizer05the end result of your approach is exactly the same as mine11:19
Wizzupso we are miscommunicating?11:19
DocScrutinizer05obviously11:19
bencoh:]11:20
Wizzup:)11:20
DocScrutinizer05I just say when you completed your approach that won't be Devuan anymore, that will be maemo11:20
Wizzupwell, that's fine11:20
MaxdamantusWhen the core changes, just tell N900 users to download and run this script to automatically update necessary configurations and move programs from /bin to /usr/bin: http://maemo.org/devuan-patch-99215.sh11:20
bencohI don't see why it wouldn't be maemo, but yeah, that's fine11:20
Wizzupas long as people on a devuan can install it with some apt repo && apt-get install11:20
bencohs/maemo/devuan/ wtf brain11:21
DocScrutinizer05unless you indeed want to kicj as many maemo heritage as possible for using more generic crap11:21
bencoh?11:21
WizzupMy preference would be for distro-supported solutions (and sw that is being supported still), and doesn't cause too much headache11:21
KotCzarnykicking pa crap wouldnt be bad11:21
Wizzupe.g. porting the old closed source wifi daemon seems like a no-no11:21
Wizzupbut when it comes to most other bits, keeping them seems sensible11:22
DocScrutinizer05there's no wifi daemon in maemo, that's the Internet Connection Daemon and manages all sorts of connectivity11:23
DocScrutinizer05and of course you can replace it by a feature-compatible other solution11:23
WizzupI think we're really on the same pag11:24
Wizzupe11:24
Wizzupwe can work out what to port and what not to port when it's the time to make decisions about that, or we can always decide to port more stuff later11:24
WizzupI really have to start work now, though. Back later11:24
DocScrutinizer05I know of at least one user in here who nuked ICD and used ifup/ifdown manually. He complained about maemo apps not noticing when a new connection got established and when it got torn down, though11:25
Wizzupnetworkmanager likely has a similar dbus api ;-)11:25
Wizzup*cough* but yeah11:25
Wizzupto be honest if we can a major part of the stack running on a modern base, I'm sure these things will kind of work out11:26
Wizzupwe can start with ifup/ifdown and plain wpa_supplicant, and work from there11:26
*** troulouliou_div2 has quit IRC11:26
DocScrutinizer05my approach is it's way easier to port the whole bunch at once and see what doesn't work, while profiting from the parts that _do_ work since they are highly entangled as you already stated yourself11:27
*** Pali has joined #maemo11:27
bencohWizzup: network-manager *cough*cough* :)11:27
bencohbut yeah, agree with you11:28
DocScrutinizer05why try to make maemo apps run on icewm or whatever when porting H-D is a nobrainer11:28
bencohDocScrutinizer05: huh?11:28
KotCzarnyh-d is finger/touch friendly11:28
KotCzarnyit makes sense to port it11:28
DocScrutinizer05every single bit you "port later" will make another 5 bits fail and you need to mess around to make them work again without the missing bit11:29
bencohsome of those bits just aren't trivial to port11:30
DocScrutinizer05you'll notice that when you try11:30
bencohor are closedsource, thus depending on old ABI no longer compatible with modern libs11:30
bencohDocScrutinizer05: I think they're already working on it and already noticed ...11:31
DocScrutinizer05it doesn't make sense to start with "let's throw a dice which bit to port this week and try to make it work"11:31
bencohmeh11:31
bencohanyway I'm not working on this, I have no word on this topic tbh11:31
*** gregoa has quit IRC11:32
DocScrutinizer05it's literally already starting with PID111:33
DocScrutinizer05I pushed so hard for Devuan since I don't know of another distro that would allow to keep maemo's init system11:34
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: h-d is the first thing that is ported11:34
WizzupI'm not sure why you'd want to make maemo init-system specific though11:35
DocScrutinizer05because the init system does a friggin lot for usability of the whole device11:35
Wizzupthat just sounds a bit like a platitude, but yeah, uh ... going for upstart with devuan seems like ... weird?11:36
DocScrutinizer05there's a reason maemo uses busybox and preinit script instead of e.g. systemd11:36
WizzupI don't think, I am not interested in this as long as most things not relying on init aren't yet ported.11:36
Wizzupbencoh: why not work on it? :)11:37
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: a part of making the 'maintenance' easier is to work with the distros / modern libs, not against them, so I don't think it makes sense to bring over every API if the only maintainers of it are ... we11:37
Wizzupfor some things it makes perfect sense, but I am not so sure if sysvinit / openrc aren't also perfectly capable of doing the same job11:38
Wizzupbut again, I don't think that's important right now11:38
*** auenf has quit IRC11:39
KotCzarnydont forget to k.i.s.s.11:39
*** MetalGearSolid has quit IRC11:39
*** auenf has joined #maemo11:39
KotCzarnythen any porting to another distro wouldnt be hard11:40
DocScrutinizer05sure they are capable... when you ADAPT them to the specific phone-embedded needs11:40
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: I am ignorant on how useful upstart is for n900/fremantle/maemo, so I will have to learn on to go, but for now I -personally- don't think it makes sense to only start upstart11:40
*** gregoa has joined #maemo11:40
DocScrutinizer05otherwise you will suffer a 4 minutes boot time with no option for 911 calls, no device lock, no... you name it11:40
WizzupAs I said, there are other uses for hildon, beyond the n90011:41
Wizzupwell, for tablets that is likely not an issue11:41
Wizzupand it's a huge burden for someone just 'wanted to get the hildon desktop' to have to get upstart, which is completely dead, not supported by any distro, and so on11:41
KotCzarnyright now n900 uses upstart and boot time is long, so i dont see the rant point11:41
Wizzupessentially that's a very deep lock-in to a specific distro11:41
DocScrutinizer05I'm not interested in tablets and a maemo not useful for a phone anymore11:41
KotCzarnyto have emergency os would be a must for such thing11:42
KotCzarnyand in such rescue/emergency ramdisk one wouldnt have to stick to things that are on rootfs11:42
*** jskarvad has joined #maemo11:43
*** jskarvad has quit IRC11:43
*** jskarvad has joined #maemo11:43
WizzupI can't think of any technical reason to lock down to an old unsupported initsystem. I would say: go generic, and then specialise. Not: stay locked within a mostly deprecated specialised corner11:44
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo11:45
Wizzupbut really, I think much of this is of no problem at this point11:45
DocScrutinizer05what makes you think you couldn't replace upstart by wahtever you want, LATER? and *start* with porting as much as possible, to make as much as possible have an environment where it actually works since e.g. the initscripts are 'just working'?11:45
*** gregoa has quit IRC11:46
*** MetalGearSolid has joined #maemo11:47
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: very simple. because you can boot devuan, apt-get install maemo packages11:47
Wizzupand bring up the ui11:47
Wizzupmake the wifi work11:47
Wizzuptest audio11:47
Wizzupport over other applications11:47
Wizzupcalendar stuff, etc11:47
Wizzupand only then worry about making the init specific to a phone11:47
Wizzupthe first part is porting it all to the new libs11:48
Wizzupand testing individual pieces11:48
DocScrutinizer05and the decision between (what I started on, with my anecdote about OM) "ripping all out to `start simple´ and then try to add one by one to the piecemeal" and "port everything and see what simply works and does NOT cause trouble and maintenance burden, and LATER replace one by one with new stuff and give it love until the new replacement really works in the way the old did" is not something for later11:49
WizzupI'm sure it causes trouble, but it also causes devs to *understand* the API and decide if it makes sense to keep them11:49
Wizzupand really, I think devuan already works right now11:49
WizzupI don't see any other practical way of porting in the first place11:50
Wizzupwhat do you suggest?11:50
DocScrutinizer05I suggest to insstall all maemo stuff over Devuan, basically11:50
DocScrutinizer05not to try male one particular bit work in an environment that's not maemo11:51
DocScrutinizer05make*11:51
Wizzupbut you will still have to port all those things11:51
Wizzupand once they are ported, you are free to do that, right?11:52
DocScrutinizer05port?11:52
DocScrutinizer05define "port"11:52
Wizzupmake it work with gtk3, new glibc, new openssl11:52
Wizzup(and soforth)11:52
DocScrutinizer05why GTK3??11:52
Wizzupbecause it is actually getting updates11:52
DocScrutinizer05o.O11:52
Wizzupand to get rid of the gtk-specific patches11:52
Wizzupsee https://github.com/fremantle-gtk311:53
DocScrutinizer05I don't see that leading *anywhere*11:53
Wizzupwell, h-d is already running11:54
DocScrutinizer05you're not porting maemo, you want to come up with a whole new OS, much like back on Harmattan11:54
Wizzuphey, uhm11:54
WizzupIt's not my idea per se11:54
WizzupI'm just trying to unify goals and move fremantle/maemo/hildon forward11:54
WizzupI clearly seem to be failing, at least partially11:55
DocScrutinizer05and - considering how long it took Fremantle to become mature, and useful and how many devels were involved, and how 'well' meego went - I don't think this will result in anything tangible in the next maybe 5 years11:56
WizzupI hope for a more bright future. Simply being able to launch applications, having hildon-desktop, some of the settings, the calendar is already a nice start11:57
DocScrutinizer05forget about calendar, it's nonfree and you *never* will port it to GTK311:57
WizzupI thought that was already happening11:58
Wizzupanyhow, it's not impossible to take shortcuts and use gtk2 as well in some places.11:58
DocScrutinizer05now we're talking11:58
DocScrutinizer05:-)11:58
DocScrutinizer05what I suggest is basically just to take as many 'shortcuts' as possible and then kill them one by one and replace them with decent solutions11:59
Wizzupwe'll have to strike some balance12:00
WizzupI have no clear overview -at all-12:00
DocScrutinizer05of course12:00
Wizzup(yet)12:00
DocScrutinizer05as long as the approach is common sense and agreed upon, that's negligible detaols :-)12:01
DocScrutinizer05the balance will come naturally during "porting"12:02
WizzupI think so too!12:02
DocScrutinizer05and i'm rather optimistic that the immanent laziness of all devels (which is a virtue as we all know) will automatically result in my 2take as many shortcuts as possible" approach in the end. I just hope that *eventually* we will get rid of all those shortcuts and have a clean shiny new maemo based on Devuan12:04
Wizzup:)12:04
DocScrutinizer05and heck, if we actually need a chroot for the dialer crap, so what?12:07
Wizzupyep12:07
luke-jrkill gtk312:07
luke-jrkill gtk12:07
*** gregoa has joined #maemo12:08
DocScrutinizer05maybe that's actually a viable approach: male one "huge" chroot for *all* fremantle (from init to PA to dialer and ICD) under Devuan, then one by one try moving programs out of the charoot and run in native Devuan12:10
Wizzupluke-jr: aloha - if you want to help out - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1520077#post152007712:10
DocScrutinizer05s/male/make/12:10
luke-jrWizzup: I don't.12:10
Wizzupluke-jr: in the end the packages can be wrapped in ebuilds as well, resulting in a maemo-meta ebuild12:10
luke-jrI consider Maemo dead.12:11
Wizzupdid you read the post, or?12:11
luke-jrprobably will /part this channel some month soon.12:11
Wizzup... :)12:11
KotCzarnyluke-jr: whats your new toy/de ?12:11
luke-jrKotCzarny: don't really have one yet.12:12
luke-jrbut I also haven't touched N900 in months except putting it in my pocket. :x12:12
KotCzarnyluke-jr: then dont consider maemo dead yet12:12
luke-jrI did install Gentoo on a GPD Win recently, but no battery charger driver :/12:12
luke-jrnor audio nor touchscreen (but tbf, touchscreen didn't work in Windows either)12:13
DocScrutinizer05o/12:13
KotCzarnyyou might consider putting fremantle on it, once it gets ported to devuan12:14
KotCzarnyand that's why you should click wizzup's link12:14
luke-jrI hate GTK12:14
luke-jrwhat happened to Harmattan?12:15
KotCzarnywho knows? who cares?12:15
luke-jrat least it was Qt12:15
siceloluke-jr: prefer qt?12:15
siceloah12:15
luke-jrcurrently I am running KDE12:16
Wizzup(I also prefer qt, but gtk is def. better for now with porting)12:16
Wizzupalso - afk :)12:16
luke-jrthere wasn't really much I liked about Maemo. :x12:16
luke-jrprobably just having the task switcher a single touch away, but anything can do that12:17
siceloApple! :)12:18
*** drrz has joined #maemo12:19
luke-jrsicelo: die :<12:19
sicelo< luke-jr> probably just having the task switcher a single touch away, _but anything can do that_12:19
sicelo;)12:20
sicelomaybe getting an N900 was a bad decision12:23
KotCzarnynope.12:23
KotCzarnybut tools should be chosen with tasks/preferences in mind12:23
siceloif i'd never got it, most likely i wouldn't be finding fine Android phones to be junk :(12:24
KotCzarnythey are not junk. more toys, eye candies12:25
siceloyes, that12:25
luke-jrsicelo: what would I use besides N900?12:27
* luke-jr wonders what he did before N81012:27
KotCzarnylaptop?12:27
KotCzarny3310 ?12:27
luke-jrpretty sure I had retired my C760 by then12:27
siceloi've had an SGS4 for 2.5 months now ... once an Android flagship, hardware way better than N900 ... but i feel empty when using it  ... my N900 is still the busiest device12:27
luke-jrnow I'm wondering what I used my N900 for.12:28
sicelowhat do you use now?12:29
luke-jrI don't usually leave home.12:29
luke-jrwhen I do these days, I play Pokemon Go on a Nexus 5X12:29
siceloKotCzarny: freemangordon : how sustainable is this AllWinner A13 platform .. can we expect on-going support? or?12:30
luke-jrhm, I guess I used N900 waiting at doctor's offices12:31
luke-jrI don't go to them very often anymore.12:31
*** ginggs_ is now known as ginggs12:32
bencohluke-jr: we already discussed that, but I don't think your battery charger issue would be too difficult to solve (gpdwin)12:43
bencohsince we already found the spec12:44
bencohit does look like it's a matter of a few i2c commands12:44
luke-jrbencoh: I'm not sure that's the spec :/12:48
luke-jrthe datasheet there DOES have a Linux driver12:48
bencohI' quite sure it is12:48
bencohluke-jr: which one?12:48
luke-jrAXP28812:48
bencohthere is a platform driver, and you already have it tbh12:48
luke-jrhttps://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88471#c63 seems relevant12:48
povbotBug 88471: was not found.12:48
bencohluke-jr: that's a gas gauge12:48
bencohnot a charger12:48
KotCzarnywell, axp is also a charger12:49
Wizzupsicelo: allwinner a33 is just one series12:49
KotCzarnyat least axp209 is one12:49
Wizzupsicelo: there's a community trying to support allwinner platforms12:49
Wizzup(e.g. MoeIcenowy has done a lot of work for the a33)12:49
bencohyeah I was atalking about the driver, I dunno whether it controls the charger part ... but looking at the code, it might, actually12:49
luke-jrdrivers/power/supply/axp288_charger.c12:50
WizzupI don't know of any allwinner *phones*. But there are tablets with modems12:50
KotCzarnybut it might use another device for battery12:50
bencohluke-jr: maybe you just need to add a few line to your devicetree then12:50
luke-jrbencoh: I have no devicetree. ACPI.12:50
bencohluke-jr: ah, I dont have that one here12:50
bencohacpi? shit :D12:50
bencohforgot about that12:50
siceloWizzup: i'm asking because ... if I was to 'invest' in some A13 tablet, and a few months later someone abandons the project ...12:50
bencohthen I dunno. maybe it's the same device with a different id. maybe it's completely unrelated.12:50
Wizzupsicelo: A33 tablet, not a13, I think12:50
Wizzupsicelo: support will likely stay, as it is in *mainline linux*, most of it12:51
bencohluke-jr: but I'd try writing the few i2c registers we talked about and see if it starts charging12:51
Wizzupso that'll stay for the coming 10 years at least12:51
Wizzupbut I don't think we're all moving to allwinner per se12:51
WizzupIt's just a good testing platform/target12:51
KotCzarnywizzup, unless it gets abandoned/obsoleted12:51
KotCzarny;)12:51
luke-jrbencoh: already tried that the other day12:51
luke-jrgot nowhere12:51
WizzupKotCzarny: I don't think that is very likely12:51
bencohah ... :/12:51
bencohthen I dunno. mybad.12:51
Wizzupsicelo: if you're lucky you can find a33 tablets for about 50 eur, but don't have too high expectations any time soon..12:52
Wizzupif it's a serious investment for you, I'd wait it out a bit12:52
KotCzarnysicelo: allwinner has quite active dev community, most of the socs are supported nicely in mainline kernel,not by patches-for-one-version12:52
KotCzarnywizzup: you can find a33 for ~30-40usd12:52
KotCzarnybut dont expect much of it/might be fake12:52
WizzupKotCzarny: same for n900 :p (not making a point)12:53
WizzupI got A33 tablets from local stores for 55EUR12:53
Wizzupthat's the 1gb variant12:53
Wizzup1GB* even12:53
KotCzarnywizzup: did you check if tis real 1GB ?12:53
Wizzupseems real.12:55
Wizzuphttp://wizzup.org/tablet.jpg12:55
sicelohere's to hoping Nokia/HMD make something hackable12:55
*** xes has quit IRC12:59
*** ceene has quit IRC13:04
*** ceene has joined #maemo13:07
bencohsicelo: errr13:08
*** N-Mi_ has joined #maemo13:09
L29Ah\o/13:10
*** xes has joined #maemo13:13
sicelolikely they will not, of course :(13:13
*** Kabouik has quit IRC13:14
siceloKotCzarny: there was a link with almost comprehensive a33 info you pasted a few days ago .. which one is it?13:17
KotCzarnyhttps://linux-sunxi.org/Mainlining_Effort#Status_Matrix13:18
KotCzarnythis one?13:18
siceloseems so. yes. thanks13:18
KotCzarnywhole wiki is a treasure trove of docs13:18
L29Ah13:52:18]<KotCzarny> sicelo: allwinner has quite active dev community, most of the socs are supported nicely in mainline kernel,not by patches-for-one-version13:18
L29Ahi've failed to make nand work on A10 :/13:18
KotCzarnyuseful even for other chips13:19
KotCzarnyl29ah: nand is one of the subjects that are still not REd fully13:19
L29Ahallwinner is chinese crap like others, i suggest to look at the matrix before buying anything13:19
KotCzarnyl29ah: yup, blobbed and closed, yet, cheap and with great community13:21
L29Ahyeah, devboards on recent socs are insanely cheap on aliexpress13:23
KotCzarnybut get one without support and you have a cheap paperweight13:23
*** eMHa__ has quit IRC13:28
Wizzupoloimex boards are nice13:29
Wizzupolimex*13:30
*** GoNeL has joined #maemo13:47
*** L29Ah has left #maemo13:49
GoNeLhi all! i'm not able to download maemo flasher in the tabletdev site because the site seems to be down, anyone can help me finding a server to download it? thanks!13:58
KotCzarny~tabletsdev13:59
KotCzarny~ping13:59
KotCzarnydoh. bot down again13:59
KotCzarnyhttps://linux-sunxi.org/Mainlining_Effort#Status_Matrix14:01
KotCzarnyuh, not this one14:01
KotCzarnyhttp://maemo.muarf.org/tablets-dev/nokia_N900/14:01
KotCzarnyand http://maemo.muarf.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads/14:02
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo14:10
*** L29Ah has left #maemo14:21
*** jonwil has quit IRC14:21
GoNeLthanks KotCzarny14:23
GoNeLmy n900 is not charging, i buy a new battery but stil not charging, the best option that i a+have is to flash it or is there anything that is possible to do?14:25
luke-jrGoNeL: maybe your USB port is broken?14:30
KotCzarnygonel, are you sure that battery is not discharged?14:30
KotCzarnydo you have a known at-least-partially good one to test the device?14:31
KotCzarnyand flasher will refuse to work if you dont have charged battery14:31
bencohGoNeL: you can trying booting it with a different kernel/initrd before flashing it14:35
GoNeLyes i now that, the usb port is working, yesterday i bought a new baterry and it came with some charge so it worked, when i plug the cable ot star on reboots and yellow light blinks, then the screen gains light and a green light blinks and then it turns off14:36
GoNeLhow can i boot with different kernel?14:37
KotCzarnyhmm14:37
bencohdoes it blink yellow or is it solid yellow?14:37
KotCzarnymaybe you have flat bat? http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Kotczarny#.7Eflatbatrecover14:37
GoNeLblink14:37
bencohand what do you mean by "it worked"?14:37
GoNeLthe new battery, so it is not empty, so there were some charge to the n900 could charge14:38
KotCzarnybut maybe you were playing with it and it got empty?14:38
GoNeLsorry my english..14:39
KotCzarnywas n900 working before (ie. you were using it) or its bought recently?14:39
GoNeLoff course i played with it! i wass missing the buddy! :D but when i boot up i get it on charge in the same moment but it didn't start charging.14:40
KotCzarnydo you have another device to charge the battery?14:40
GoNeLthen i plug the cable off and rebbot, it gaves me a message 'n900 is not charging' after it boots up14:41
GoNeLi will to the store ask for tem to charge it, i dont have any other way14:41
KotCzarnytry the link first14:41
KotCzarnyobserve the light14:41
GoNeLi have it since 2009, last year i was in angola and it start with this problem, now because i needed it again i bought the new battery and it works normaly so i supossed tha the proble was the old one, but it seems not..14:43
KotCzarnymight be broken usb port or cable14:46
KotCzarnyor charger too14:46
KotCzarnyi had my n900 acting up on bad cables14:46
bencohif you suspect a broken usb port you should prolly try fixing it before it actually falls off the board14:47
bencohyou might want to make sure it is the issue before to star disassembling it though14:48
GoNeLi could try another ac adapter, from another brand than nokia?14:48
KotCzarnypreferably some good one14:49
KotCzarnyand at least 1A14:49
GoNeLthe usb port was changed already in the past, i assume it is good, but i'm not sure14:49
GoNeLi ask that because in the link is says ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER***14:50
KotCzarnythat's just a safety wording14:51
KotCzarnynokia did good hardware, now even with crapsung you can get crap.14:51
sicelonot just crap .. bombs :-)14:53
GoNeLok because i have not mine here, i'm portuguese liveng in france an i didn't brought everything with me, i'm using adapters from apple hawei and wiko for the try, all 1A14:54
KotCzarnyalso, it might sense what charger is connected, nokia's one has its middle pins connected via resistor14:55
KotCzarnyso use data cable for charging14:55
bencohKotCzarny: that's not justa safety wording14:56
bencohsince wall charger (aka dumb charger) are supposed to short D+/D-14:57
GoNeLok i'm doing it, if i plug it to the usb port fom my laptop it starts booting but no led light turns on14:57
bencohotherwise n900 wont charge14:57
KotCzarnybencoh, n900 can use other chargers, not just original one14:57
KotCzarnybencoh, it might be meaningful to mention that data cable should be used, even with original charger14:58
sicelobencho is right about the D+- short though ... so even a 1A charger will charge at low current if that short isn't in place14:59
KotCzarnysicelo, but problem is, would amber light turn off on such charger?14:59
KotCzarnyor pulse?14:59
*** fishbulb has joined #maemo15:00
siceloforgot .. would possibly depend  on how empty battery is? haven't used the non-Nokia chargers much15:01
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo15:03
*** L29Ah has left #maemo15:19
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo15:20
bencohKotCzarny: in a normal state it wont work at all (not even slow charging - solid yellow) as far as I can tell15:21
bencoh(could be wrong though)15:21
bencohin an empty battery state ... no idea15:21
bencoh(regarding dumb chargers that don't short D+/-)15:22
bencohI personally use a samsung charger that does work properly. But not all of them do15:23
*** sunshavi has joined #maemo15:25
*** GoNeL has quit IRC16:01
*** N-Mi_ has quit IRC16:53
*** arcean has quit IRC16:58
*** N-Mi_ has joined #maemo17:07
*** florian has quit IRC17:14
*** eMHa__ has joined #maemo17:16
*** jon_y has quit IRC17:27
*** jon_y has joined #maemo17:29
*** drrrz has joined #maemo17:41
*** drrz has quit IRC17:45
*** drrrz has quit IRC17:47
NotKitdoes H-D work as 3D compositor on Maemo?18:14
keriothat's what it does yes18:16
MoeIcenowymy N900 do not like dedicated chargers :-(18:24
MoeIcenowyit can only be charged when connected to my laptop18:24
*** L29Ah has left #maemo18:31
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: please, stop twisting my words re -thumb. In case it didn't become clear - I said months ago there will be no new cssu-thumb release until there is a new cssu maintainer, cssu-thumb follows cssu-testing and you know that. Making extras-thumb repo gains nothing IMO - it is the thumbified core components that make the difference, not xterm or pdf feader. Thus I see no value in making that ATM.18:33
freemangordonEsp if we evaluate pain/gain ratio18:34
freemangordonalso, I don;t see how porting h-d to devuan leaves n900 aside - maybe you should look at fremantle-gtk3 repo in github - ALL but 1 (iirc) backages are based on the ones in CSSU. No stripped functionality, no dbus iface changes.18:36
freemangordonre init system - most of the core stuff in fremantle is started by dsme, which is already ported to devuan18:36
freemangordonThe point is - sticking to n900 only while waiting to some miracle to appear and some manufacturer to make 1-1 n900 replacement is a dead end IMO - by the time this will eventually happen, maemo will be long dead18:38
*** drrz has joined #maemo18:39
freemangordonthus the effort to port fremantle to modern distros and more HW - an attempt (even naive) to attract more devs18:39
freemangordonthis is in addition to waht Wizzup said ^^^18:40
Palimake sense, ideally make those maemo sw neutral of chosen init system18:40
freemangordon:nod:18:40
Paliand as process guard/monitor and automatic restart can be dsme used18:41
freemangordons/can/must :)18:41
PaliMaemo5 is some hybrid, when some daemons are automatically restarted by upstart and some by dsme18:41
Paliwhich make no sense at all18:41
freemangordonmaybe it is some legacy18:41
freemangordonI don;t see anything stopping us from moving everything to dsme18:42
MoeIcenowymaybe the best solution is to make everything auto restarted by systemd (18:42
freemangordonhehe18:42
keriohuehue18:42
KotCzarnyuh oh18:42
Palidsme seems good option18:42
freemangordonMoeIcenowy: patches accepted :p18:42
bencohfreemangordon: make dsme PID1? ;p18:42
Paliand by me are such patches rejected18:42
bencohhaha18:43
freemangordonand put microb in it?18:43
keriocan't we just have stuff not crash instead18:43
bencohfreemangordon: yaaay :D18:43
KotCzarnybencoh, why stopping there? make it pid0!18:43
Palipid 0? hehe18:43
Paliswapper18:43
freemangordonnaah, this is already reserved for systemd :)18:43
bencohfreemangordon: jokes aside ... nice job thus far :)18:43
Palior what it is18:43
kerioKotCzarny: that's a funny macos meme actually18:43
KotCzarnyoh?18:43
freemangordonbencoh: join the party18:43
kerio"kernel_task is using all my cpu, what do i do" "try restarting it"18:44
freemangordon:D18:44
KotCzarny:)18:44
kerioit actually shows up as pid 018:44
KotCzarnykilling swapper process sounds like fun party18:44
bencohfreemangordon: huhu Wizzup told me the same ... dunno, I already work full time on kernel stuff, so ... :)18:44
freemangordonyep, this is what I meant be "reserved for systemd"18:44
freemangordonbencoh: I guess most of us have fulltime job anyway18:45
freemangordondon;t see how's that rel;ated18:45
bencohfreemangordon: just that I haven't actually written many lines of code outside of work these days18:45
Palianyway, what is state of pulseaudio-nokia?18:45
bencohI kinda tend to ... no longer be productive at home18:45
freemangordonPali: the same, I wanted at least one more guy/girl to join the party before continuing18:46
kerio:(18:46
freemangordonwanted/want18:47
freemangordonPali: spending next 8-12 months on this only, alone, is a nogo18:47
bencohdo you guys target exclusively armel? do you have an x86 target thus far?18:47
bencoh(like, you know ... qemu)18:47
freemangordonbencoh: almost all the development is don on x8618:48
freemangordon*done18:48
bencohoh, okay18:48
bencohnice18:48
bencohat least I wouldn't need a device to work18:48
freemangordonallwiner was just a POC, I wanted to see how it behaves, etc18:48
freemangordonbencoh: deffinitely18:48
freemangordonwe'll need real device when it comes to TS integration18:48
bencohindeed18:49
freemangordongnome devs, in their ethernal wisdom, does not emit 'clicked" events on touch, but "touched"18:49
bencohwtf.18:49
KotCzarny;)18:49
MoeIcenowygnome is also trying to make it touch friendly18:49
freemangordondon't as me18:49
KotCzarnygnome is evil18:49
kerio:D18:49
bencoh*sigh* :)18:49
freemangordon*ask18:49
MoeIcenowyand gnome-3 is at least touch-usable18:49
MoeIcenowybut18:49
MoeIcenowytooooo heeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaavy18:50
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo18:50
freemangordonMoeIcenowy: and this is the result when you use xml for something it was not intended for18:50
MoeIcenowyfreemangordon: ?18:50
keriowhat is xml intended for?18:51
freemangordonand also when you use scripting languages when you need pure C18:51
KotCzarnythats why firefox is too heavy now18:51
freemangordonnot for databases at least18:51
KotCzarnyit uses dom for ui18:51
KotCzarnyin early years it was using c/gtk, it was fasst18:51
KotCzarnynow its slow as a cow18:51
KotCzarnysame for gtk3/gnome318:51
MoeIcenowyI think a C-ized gnome-shell is also acceptable ;-)18:53
MoeIcenowybut js really makes it sucks on low-resource devices18:53
bencohfreemangordon: are you saying you're porting h-d to a bloated framework? :]18:54
freemangordonmhm18:54
* freemangordon hides18:54
bencohhuhu :)18:54
bencohdid they stop gtk2 btw?18:54
freemangordonI think so18:54
freemangordonnot sure though18:54
KotCzarnymaybe we should stick with gtk2 for now and see how it works out?18:54
MoeIcenowythe problem of maemo on gtk2 is18:55
MoeIcenowyit is heavily patched18:55
freemangordonexactly18:55
KotCzarnybut is it open sourced?18:55
MoeIcenowyit is18:55
freemangordonyes18:55
MoeIcenowyan open-sourced abandoned heavily-patched fork is also evil18:55
KotCzarnythen it might be manageable? really, even those 1GB tablets might not be enough18:55
freemangordondoes gtk2 support modules? I guess yes.18:56
Paliwhat is patched in maemo's gtk version?18:56
Paliperformance patches?18:56
freemangordonPali: ...and the kitchen sink18:56
MoeIcenowyPali: mainly touchscreen optimizes18:56
Palior some new classes specially designed for hildon?18:56
KotCzarnypanned areas18:56
MoeIcenowyand some new classes18:56
KotCzarnypanned widgets18:56
bencohkitchen sink?18:56
MoeIcenowyat least touchscreen capability is already in gtk318:56
Palicannot be those new widgets in external libraries?18:56
freemangordonthey can. most probably18:57
MoeIcenowybut the touchscreen guys are also patches...18:57
Palior how you are dealing with it in gtk3?18:57
freemangordonstill far from dealing with anything but trying to compile18:57
freemangordonat least we have cordia to steal ideas from18:57
bencohftr, gtk2.24 is the last branch of gtk2, and is still being maintained (and has been since 2011)18:58
freemangordonPali: look ath gtk3 thread on tmo, android808 has shared some details there18:58
bencohbut I suspect there is no new features18:58
freemangordonbencoh: but iirc it requires newer glib18:59
freemangordonwaay newer18:59
bencohglib? yeah18:59
freemangordonlibgli/libgobject18:59
KotCzarnyhmm, also, bri nging back 'try to just run it for now, port one by one later' might be useful approach18:59
bencohstill noluck for old maemo :)18:59
freemangordonKotCzarny: anyway, applications will have to be ported, even if we stick with gtk219:00
Wizzupgtk3 already has proper touch support19:01
Wizzupwhy not leverage that?19:01
bencohfreemangordon: ported or recompiled?19:01
MoeIcenowyyes, gtk3 have proper touch support19:01
KotCzarnyported19:01
freemangordonstuf like g_thread_init() etc are deprecated in jessie already19:01
KotCzarnysome functions might get deprecated19:01
bencohah, okay19:01
freemangordonyes, ported19:01
bencohwell, anyway :)19:01
freemangordongnomevfs is another story19:02
freemangordonit is so old, it is hard to find docs on the inet19:02
freemangordonclutter 0.8 is another example19:02
freemangordonetc. etc.19:03
*** L29Ah has left #maemo19:03
freemangordonanyway, back to hd-home.c and clutter_effect_move() :)19:03
bencohg'luck :)19:08
*** geaaru has quit IRC19:18
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo19:20
*** arossdotme has joined #maemo19:20
*** florian has joined #maemo19:24
*** L29Ah has left #maemo19:25
*** dafox has joined #maemo19:25
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo19:27
*** dafox has quit IRC19:50
*** jskarvad has quit IRC19:53
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo20:05
*** Kabouik has quit IRC20:26
*** fishbulb has quit IRC20:33
*** dafox has joined #maemo20:43
*** zama has quit IRC20:58
*** zama has joined #maemo21:11
*** APic has quit IRC21:35
*** heroux has quit IRC21:35
*** APic has joined #maemo21:36
*** heroux has joined #maemo21:36
*** N-Mi_ has quit IRC21:53
*** ubizzy has joined #maemo22:14
*** ymartin59 has joined #maemo22:25
ymartin59Hello22:27
ymartin59I am in trouble with Xephyr... mouse pointer is not visible... and I am not sure my keystroke are understood properly... I am testing my keepassx 2.0.2 build22:28
ymartin59Any hint how I should run Xephyr on Debian stretch22:29
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo22:31
ymartin59Found in http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation22:38
*** dafox has quit IRC23:05
ymartin59Is garage Git server https://vcs.maemo.org/git/ OK for push ?23:22
*** L29Ah has left #maemo23:41
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo23:41
bencohiirc you can ask for a project / git there23:48
bencohor at least could back then23:48
bencohdunno about nowadays23:49
ymartin59$ git push -u origin 0.4.3error: Cannot access URL https://vcs.maemo.org/git/keepassx/, return code 2223:53
ymartin59fatal: git-http-push failed23:53
ymartin59error: failed to push some refs to 'https://vcs.maemo.org/git/keepassx'23:53
ymartin5923:53
ymartin59I have justed changed my email address in my account... not sure it may be the reason of this error23:54

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!