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| totalizator | oh gosh https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3053711 | 10:43 |
|---|---|---|
| totalizator | see the Resolution | 10:43 |
| kerio | the Resolution is to use windows 10 | 10:44 |
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| Juest | Worst. Resolution. Ever! | 10:53 |
| Juest | lololol, task scheduler, funny bug and wnidows 10 kernel uses a LOT of disk! | 10:54 |
| Juest | uhh wtf | 10:54 |
| Juest | yeah, dont use the ovbious | 10:55 |
| Juest | lol | 10:55 |
| Juest | never mind and sorry for the noise | 10:55 |
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| kerio | Pali: does your bq24k module actually charge at 1.8A | 13:23 |
| kerio | i thought the limit was closer to 1A | 13:23 |
| Pali | kerio: you can tell hw current limit | 13:23 |
| Pali | and my bq module exports it via sysfs | 13:23 |
| kerio | yeah but why is "dedicated" 1800 :( | 13:23 |
| Pali | for wallchager is current limit something like unlimited (or upper limit) | 13:23 |
| kerio | oh i see | 13:24 |
| kerio | but the actual charging system will only charge at at most what the charging current for a near empty battery is? | 13:24 |
| Pali | do not remember | 13:24 |
| Pali | maybe ask doc | 13:24 |
| Pali | at least with bq module you have full control of it | 13:25 |
| Pali | so you can re-configure it with your own settings (if for some reason needed) | 13:25 |
| kerio | dedicated charging from usb port | 13:25 |
| kerio | #yolo | 13:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WUT? 18ßß? | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 1800 | 13:31 |
| kerio | yes, 18ssss | 13:31 |
| kerio | i assume it's "no limit" | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm realy too lazy to get out the bq24150 DS now, but I doubt it has a 1800 setting | 13:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: anyway there's USB limit, and charging current. They are only loosely related | 13:35 |
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| kerio | oh rofl | 14:23 |
| kerio | setting the charging mode to dedicated keeps the blinking led even when the cable is detached | 14:23 |
| kerio | oh ok it updated a bit later | 14:24 |
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| bencoh | 1800mA, really? | 15:38 |
| kerio | oh bonus of using dedicated mode | 15:39 |
| kerio | the screen doesn't light up when connecting or detaching the cable | 15:39 |
| kerio | for some reason | 15:40 |
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| capitanocrunch | hi | 15:44 |
| kerio | anyway, i pulled out a ludicrous amount of lint and dust from the musb connector | 15:45 |
| kerio | now it works much better ^-^ | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 15:46 |
| capitanocrunch | i just noticed the navit team uploaded a new version of navit on maemo repos (they managed to use cmake to compile it) | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wow | 15:46 |
| capitanocrunch | but then they stop to push updates... | 15:47 |
| capitanocrunch | how can we pull the source via git or similar? | 15:48 |
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| ceene | someone knows how to define an SPI flash on the device tree? | 16:28 |
| ceene | i can't get this thing to recognize my flash chip | 16:29 |
| Sicelo | Pali is your friend with that :p | 16:29 |
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| KotCzarny | kerio: 1.8A is the microusb connector limit | 16:34 |
| KotCzarny | even if you connect bigger powersource its just too small to flow through | 16:35 |
| ceene | i got it! | 16:46 |
| ceene | :) | 16:46 |
| ceene | mtd0: 01000000 00010000 "spi32766.0" | 16:46 |
| ceene | i don't know where that name comes from, though | 16:49 |
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| ceene | mtd0: 01000000 00010000 "spi1.0" | 16:55 |
| ceene | that's better now | 16:55 |
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| ceene | ok, but where are my partitions? | 17:07 |
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| ceene | dev: size erasesize name | 17:29 |
| ceene | mtd0: 00000100 00010000 "bitfile" | 17:29 |
| ceene | mtd1: 00000100 00010000 "kernel" | 17:29 |
| ceene | mtd2: 00000100 00010000 "rootfs" | 17:29 |
| ceene | mtd3: 00000100 00010000 "calibration" | 17:29 |
| ceene | cool! | 17:29 |
| ceene | didn't mean to fill this out, only showing my happiness :P | 17:29 |
| ceene | ups | 17:29 |
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| kerio | KotCzarny: is that a fact of life or a challenge? | 17:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/05/18/1357218/nokia-announces-return-to-smartphone-tablet-markets | 18:51 |
| Sicelo | with Android in tow .. anyway, here's to hoping they eventually do even better | 18:56 |
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| sunshavi | Sicelo: then waiting 4 smth better than the pyra ;) | 19:13 |
| Sicelo | i'd love either Pyra or Neo900. i'd choose those any day | 19:14 |
| Sicelo | but both are above my pay grade :) | 19:14 |
| sunshavi | in the stmt they say: focus on Android. So It is more of the same. Android does not fill the cup | 19:15 |
| Sicelo | otoh, i'm sure Nokia will get enough market share .. people, particularly here in Africa, still believe in Nokia | 19:16 |
| Sicelo | mobile phone is synonymous with the word "Nokia" here, even though Samsung and Apple have their place | 19:16 |
| sunshavi | Nokia is an strong brand | 19:17 |
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| sunshavi | wondering if Pyra is going to beat neon900 on getting first to the market | 19:18 |
| Sicelo | it will | 19:18 |
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| KotCzarny | kerio: both | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it definitely will | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nikolaus postponed Neo900 in favor of Pyra which has venture capital to do R&D | 19:26 |
| kerio | :( | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however Pyra is no phone, I wouldn't want to use it as one at least | 19:27 |
| Venemo | hey guys | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hey! | 19:27 |
| kerio | will the mobile version actually be able to place calls | 19:27 |
| Venemo | I'm surprised to see this channel still exists :) | 19:27 |
| kerio | or will it only do data? | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: it's supposed to be able to place calls. Standby and inbound calls is a completely different topic though | 19:28 |
| Sicelo | Venemo: hi :) | 19:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: loooong time no see | 19:28 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: too long! | 19:29 |
| Venemo | I decided to revive my old N900 | 19:29 |
| Venemo | bought a new battery today, but the USB connector broke out years ago | 19:30 |
| Venemo | I still have it, just need to figure out whether it is possible to solder it back | 19:30 |
| Sicelo | it should be | 19:30 |
| Venemo | I've never taken the device apart | 19:31 |
| Venemo | found a handy video on youtube, so maybe I'll do it tomorrow in the lab :) | 19:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | there's L1_2 service manual | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the YT videos are often crap | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~l1_2 | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thought as much | 19:33 |
| Venemo | can you please gimme a link? google is not very forthcoming | 19:34 |
| Venemo | this is what I found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVEHm325-z8 | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://pdadb.net/download/nokia_n900_rx-51_service_manual_l1-l2_v1_0.pdf | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo l1_2 is http://pdadb.net/download/nokia_n900_rx-51_service_manual_l1-l2_v1_0.pdf | 19:34 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay | 19:34 |
| Venemo | wow, thank you DocScrutinizer05 | 19:35 |
| Sicelo | DocScrutinizer05: maybe you could add factoid for l3&4 as well :) | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that YT video is crap | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's exactly the crappy YT video I had in mind when I warned | 19:37 |
| Venemo | I see | 19:38 |
| KotCzarny | ~usbfix | 19:39 |
| infobot | well, usbfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt | 19:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they skip important stuff that will definitely cause fatal mistakes when you disassemble | 19:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | to 'compensate', they do stuff that's absolute nonsense to do | 19:39 |
| Venemo | I was kinda surprised to find out that it really was an smd microusb that can really break off, but it did | 19:40 |
| luke-jr | good luck | 19:41 |
| luke-jr | IMO it's not possible to repair a broken USB :< | 19:42 |
| Venemo | why not? | 19:42 |
| luke-jr | too small, and there's no way to get at the parts that need to be soldered | 19:42 |
| Sicelo | luke-jr: i did it on both my N900. had never done SMD work before. just using regular soldering iron and lots of flux | 19:43 |
| Sicelo | i think the rest of you are far better experts than i am :) | 19:43 |
| Sicelo | and you probably all have better equipment at your disposal | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | … | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | Sicelo: after it broke off? | 19:44 |
| Sicelo | yep | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | there's literally no way to even get at the connections with a soldering iron :/ | 19:44 |
| Sicelo | it's easy .. you need to remove a bit of the RF shielding | 19:45 |
| luke-jr | :| | 19:45 |
| luke-jr | that's safe? | 19:45 |
| Sicelo | i'd say so. they haven't exploded yet :) | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE | 19:46 |
| Sicelo | but yes, proper hot air/reflow station would be best .. but i didn't have that, and didn't trust anyone else to fix my N900. | 19:46 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo: start n900 repair bussiness | 19:48 |
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| Sicelo | if there were lots of N900 users here, i would. :) | 19:49 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 19:49 |
| KotCzarny | make it so! | 19:49 |
| Venemo | luke-jr: are you saying it isn't worth a try? | 19:50 |
| KotCzarny | he just says he is not believing his hands | 19:50 |
| KotCzarny | there are quite few people who did resolder broken usb to n900 | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: if you want to try, i'd say give it a go by all means | 19:50 |
| KotCzarny | you might try with some disposable phone as a practice | 19:51 |
| Venemo | I can solder QFN chips, how much harder can a USB port be? | 19:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | luke-jr is right, but Sicelo is also right. And you can even use 5mm long thin wires to connect the USB pins to the pads on PCB, then bend those wires while you push the USB into place and solder it down on the mechanical posts and reenforce it as suggested in ~usbfix | 19:52 |
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| Venemo | so it just needs a bit of creativity | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I suggest to cut/file off a part of the "steel roof" of the USB component, which covers the electric pins | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 19:53 |
| Venemo | sounds doable, unless the pads on the pcb also broke off, in which case I'd need to be even more creative | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even then there's a fix for that | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are other solder points nearby | 19:54 |
| Venemo | I'll see tomorrow | 19:54 |
| Venemo | :) | 19:54 |
| KotCzarny | solder qi charger ;) | 19:55 |
| Venemo | hehe | 19:55 |
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| Venemo | by the way since you guys were talking about the pyra earlier. the hardware does seem nice, but the form factor looks unconvincing to me | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=693493&postcount=12 the pics are gone, but they are available elsewhere ;-) | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=870017&postcount=27 see attachment | 19:56 |
| Venemo | is there a chance that the pyra's hardware would come in other form factors (maybe a Neo900 variant?) | 19:56 |
| Venemo | got it, I think I'll give it a go! thanks for the links DocScrutinizer05! | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yw | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (pyra) not in Neo900 / N900 formfactor, won't fit in | 19:57 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo, did you notice? | 19:58 |
| Sicelo | notice what? | 19:58 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo, i didnt solitice oscp yet ;) | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 Step2 however is targeted at exactly this combination of SoC and features | 19:58 |
| Sicelo | haha, ;) | 19:58 |
| Venemo | really? | 19:58 |
| Venemo | or you just teasin' us? :) | 19:58 |
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| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: do you have a timeframe on this Neo900 Step2? | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: just a "after Neo900" | 20:28 |
| Venemo | I see | 20:28 |
| kerio | neo900 2? :o | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at times I considered to already start a kickstarter for Step2, declaring Neo900 the prototyping needed to implement Step2 | 20:29 |
| kerio | if you don't call it neo1800 i'm going to be disappointed | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1444602&highlight=STEP2#post1444602 | 20:31 |
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| KotCzarny | kerio: neo9000 would be better | 20:39 |
| KotCzarny | (adding 0s for next models) | 20:39 |
| ds3 | Neo901 | 20:39 |
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| Venemo | lol | 20:42 |
| Venemo | the name doesn't matter | 20:42 |
| KotCzarny | not true | 20:43 |
| KotCzarny | name DOES matter! | 20:43 |
| Venemo | but I'd definitely be more interested in an OMAP5 platform than an OMAP3 one | 20:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, as soon as we made a maemo work flawlessly on a OPEM3 platform, without any closed blobs we couldn't port to an OMAP5 platform | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/OPEM/OMAP/ | 20:56 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: sure, as soon as we made a maemo work flawlessly on a OMAP3 platform, without any closed blobs we couldn't port to an OMAP5 platform | 20:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | unlike Pyra we don't hope for a generic debian ecosystem where we simply apt-get $whatever from mainline repos | 20:57 |
| Venemo | how comfortable would you be with a Mer port? | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we heavily base on the existing maemo ecosystem | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Mer? blargh! | 20:58 |
| Venemo | you know, the stuff that Sailfish is based on. | 20:58 |
| Venemo | at least part of the heavy lifting could be shared with those guys | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there *is* *no* heavy lifting in SW done by Neo900 UG. We don't have the manpower for that | 20:59 |
| Venemo | yup, my point exactly | 20:59 |
| Venemo | to be honest I haven't been following up with maemo for several years now, so not sure how it is (or if it changed at all) | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and in my book Sailfish continued exactly the ill guided Harmattan design principles | 21:00 |
| Venemo | yeah, the Sailfish UI isn't something I'd use on a Neo900 | 21:01 |
| Venemo | but the base system is pretty adaptable | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | adaptable doesn't mean *anybody* actually *will* adapt it | 21:01 |
| Venemo | I'm not trying to get into an argument here | 21:02 |
| Venemo | my personal problem with maemo (either 5 or 6) is that by now it has a 6+ years old version of basically everything | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 is meant to work OOTB with maemo5 | 21:02 |
| Venemo | not sure how big an effort it would require to bring it up to date, if that's even possible (and not sure if that is a goal for you) | 21:02 |
| FIQ | kerio, should compromise by calling it neo18000 | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the goal for Neo900 is to provide an ecosystem where apps are already available | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not a dream device for developers | 21:03 |
| FIQ | urgh I wasn't a huge fan of sailfish' UI | 21:04 |
| FIQ | I didn't find it *bad*, just... not special | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you want a cutting edge OS you're free to port it to Neo900, this is the core design rule that Neo900 is so open that you can do with it whatever you want | 21:04 |
| FIQ | compared to iOS/android | 21:04 |
| Venemo | sure thing | 21:04 |
| FIQ | and having a steeper learning curve | 21:04 |
| Venemo | FIQ: I'm not talking about the Sailfish UI here specifically, but the underlying system that it builds on | 21:05 |
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| FIQ | Mer? | 21:05 |
| Venemo | yes. | 21:05 |
| KotCzarny | you either want a blackbox device or pocket computer with phone function | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | regardless Neo900 needs to be compatible to stock maemo5 to have a living ecosystem, we can't create a new one | 21:05 |
| FIQ | I think Mer might work on the Neo900 alread | 21:05 |
| FIQ | y | 21:05 |
| FIQ | (theoretically that is, the Neo900 doesn't exist yet) | 21:05 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: yeah I get that | 21:06 |
| Venemo | not suggesting to start from scratch | 21:06 |
| Venemo | but I'd love to have "the best of both worlds", if that's possible | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | once there's a genuine Neo900 ecosystem, we can move on to whatever platform we like | 21:06 |
| FIQ | <DocScrutinizer05> unlike Pyra we don't hope for a generic debian ecosystem where we simply apt-get $whatever from mainline repos | 21:06 |
| Venemo | FIQ: yup, I got that too | 21:06 |
| FIQ | the pyra will not ship pure debian I think | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it won't, true | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however it already has a pandora community that ports a lot of games and stuff | 21:07 |
| FIQ | it will be basically debian, but also own repos (for optimized software) and some modifications | 21:07 |
| KotCzarny | devuan | 21:07 |
| FIQ | kinda similar to how earlier Maemos worked? I dunno | 21:07 |
| FIQ | yeah | 21:07 |
| KotCzarny | to be exact | 21:07 |
| FIQ | KotCzarny, no, the pyra will ship with debian | 21:08 |
| FIQ | not devuan | 21:08 |
| KotCzarny | i mean for neo900 | 21:08 |
| FIQ | ah | 21:08 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: what I was trying to say is that there are people out there who'd appreciate a fresh software stack | 21:09 |
| Venemo | I personally would love to have a device for on-the-go hacking on which I can run the latest Qt5 and the latest GCC | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | possible, but that's only of marginal impact to the design rules for Neo900 | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 is hardware only | 21:10 |
| Venemo | I know | 21:10 |
| Venemo | just sayin :) | 21:10 |
| KotCzarny | if you have latest libs, nothing stops you from having latest gcc/qt | 21:10 |
| KotCzarny | and latest libs usually mean mainline kernel | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't see why you couldn't run latest Qt5 and the latest GCC on Neo900 or even N900 | 21:11 |
| Venemo | nobody has ported those to the N(eo)9(x) yet | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so? | 21:11 |
| Venemo | not sure if it's even possible | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's exactly my point, Neo900 UG won't | 21:11 |
| FIQ | <Venemo> I personally would love to have a device for on-the-go hacking on which I can run the latest Qt5 and the latest GCC | 21:12 |
| * Venemo is not expecting Neo900 UG to do it, just here to discuss the possibilities | 21:12 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: why you fullquote others? | 21:12 |
| FIQ | then debian wouldn't be optimal either since it thrives in ensuring stability over up-to-date software | 21:12 |
| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05, I usually do that when I want to reply to someone to reference what I'm replying to | 21:13 |
| Venemo | FIQ: I wouldn't want to get into an argument about debian here, let's try to stay productive | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the possibilities are all there, freemangordon runs kernel 4,over9000 on N900 | 21:13 |
| FIQ | (er, to clarify, I only do it when what I'm replying to is unclear) | 21:13 |
| FIQ | Venemo, no no I'm not either | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: then I suggest you quoze only partial and append your answer in same post | 21:13 |
| Venemo | FIQ: but as an aside, you are correct, I don't like debian and don't use it myself, but I respect its goals | 21:14 |
| FIQ | just saying since it seemed you wanted the latest of the things | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((I usually do that when I want to reply)) nobody understands that really | 21:14 |
| FIQ | and thus debian wouldn't be optimal, not trying to start a distro flamewar : | 21:14 |
| FIQ | :) | 21:14 |
| FIQ | anyway Venemo, if you want a pocket computer for development, I think the pyra might arguably be a better choice due to its keyboard | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~devuan | 21:16 |
| infobot | somebody said devuan was the most awesome distro, or https://devuan.org | 21:16 |
| FIQ | (shoulder button as modifiers is *great*, a major gripe I had with N900's keyboard apart from being 3-row which is workable) | 21:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: maemo "secretly" moved from debian to devuan as base distro (aka 'upstream') | 21:17 |
| Venemo | you trying to covertly start a systemd flamewar? | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe no | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no systemd in maemo is a fact | 21:18 |
| FIQ | I'm not a fan of systemd myself but the issues I've had with systemd is minor enough for me not to make a fuss about it | 21:18 |
| Venemo | FIQ: I am actually considering the pyra, but I dislike its thickness and that ugly game console feeling | 21:18 |
| FIQ | Venemo, I see | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: well, try to install systemd on maemo. Good luck! | 21:19 |
| FIQ | personally I find game controls a feature, and not just for gaming purposes | 21:19 |
| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05, haha I don't embrace systemd at all :P | 21:19 |
| Venemo | @ systemd: I've been using it since F15 adopted it, never had any problems. don't wanna flame about it though :) | 21:19 |
| FIQ | I'd rather stay away, but on desktop I feel that avoiding it is more hassle than it's worth | 21:19 |
| FIQ | I've had minor issues with it, issues I never had with the previous init systems I've used | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: it simply is incompatible to maemo, and will stay so invariably | 21:20 |
| FIQ | but those are *minor* | 21:20 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: okay. | 21:20 |
| Venemo | on a different not: it would be interesting to know if the pyra's hw could be squeezed into an N810. that's something I would actually want. | 21:20 |
| Venemo | on a different note: it would be interesting to know if the pyra's hw could be squeezed into an N810. that's something I would actually want. | 21:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. both maemo5 and systemd claim exclusive use of cgroups | 21:21 |
| KotCzarny | venemo: http://linux-sunxi.org/User:Kc#systemd_is_evil | 21:21 |
| KotCzarny | just a few links i've gathered | 21:21 |
| FIQ | (the 3 issues that stood out for me was more tinkering needed to set things up, binary logfiles (why...), and a weird bug that made my system incredibly slow under certain circumstances) | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((N810)) no way | 21:22 |
| Venemo | KotCzarny: I have a few links of my own with counter-arguments, but let's not flame here please. | 21:22 |
| KotCzarny | ok | 21:22 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 21:22 |
| KotCzarny | we are free to choose what we like | 21:22 |
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| FIQ | but ultimately I wont bother messing with things either way | 21:22 |
| FIQ | Venemo, why the N810? | 21:23 |
| FIQ | hm IIRC it had some benefits with the case that the N900 lacks | 21:23 |
| FIQ | can't remember what exactly | 21:23 |
| KotCzarny | good speakers? | 21:24 |
| KotCzarny | big screen? | 21:24 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: the pyra board should be around the right size for an N810, the dimensions look somewhat similar | 21:24 |
| KotCzarny | dpad? | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I doubt it | 21:24 |
| Venemo | FIQ: bigger screen, better keyboard, room for larger battery, better overall build quality. that is just my impression though. | 21:24 |
| FIQ | ah, I never used the speakers myself on either device (obviously in the case of n810, I never had one) | 21:24 |
| FIQ | didn't know it had a bigger screen/keyboard though | 21:24 |
| KotCzarny | keyboard was similar in size | 21:25 |
| FIQ | I've seen its d-pad, I prefer an actual d-pad, but I guess it's better than what N900 had | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N810 was (is) awesome | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I still think (unlike many other users) that the N810 kbd is superior to the N900's | 21:26 |
| Venemo_j | FIQ: look it up on wikipedia | 21:26 |
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| Venemo_j | DocScrutinizer05 +1 | 21:27 |
| FIQ | I wish more portable keyboards had shoulder buttons :P | 21:27 |
| Venemo_j | I actually considered buying an N810 when I realized I wasn't gonna be as productive on the jolla phone as I was on the N900... | 21:28 |
| Venemo_j | >4" devices are the norm these days anyway so it wouldn't even raise any eyebrows | 21:28 |
| FIQ | heh | 21:29 |
| FIQ | smaller and smaller | 21:29 |
| FIQ | suddenly, bigger and bigger | 21:29 |
| Venemo_j | I would've got one if it wasn't for the spectaculary outdated cpu architecture | 21:29 |
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| FIQ | what does it use, OMAP2? | 21:29 |
| KotCzarny | yup | 21:29 |
| Venemo_j | yup | 21:29 |
| FIQ | ah | 21:29 |
| KotCzarny | works great as a heart of intelligent audio system | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: ((suddenly, bigger and bigger)) the veteran users told Nokia so before N900 rollout | 21:30 |
| luke-jr | N810 kbd is definitely superior to N900 | 21:31 |
| luke-jr | by far | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if Nokia had kept the N810 formfactor for N900, that would've been a dream | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the screen feels like 3 times the size - obviously it's not but still... | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so does the kbd | 21:32 |
| FIQ | is it 4row? | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err | 21:33 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 checks | 21:33 | |
| luke-jr | overall, I prefer the C760 formfactor | 21:33 |
| FIQ | should know that :P | 21:33 |
| luke-jr | so I have high hopes for Pyra | 21:33 |
| FIQ | it's a huge difference | 21:33 |
| FIQ | C760? | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yup | 21:33 |
| luke-jr | FIQ: yes | 21:33 |
| FIQ | oo | 21:33 |
| FIQ | yeah that would have been great | 21:33 |
| luke-jr | http://www.dreadscott.com/C760/Zaurus_C760.jpg | 21:33 |
| FIQ | then the only real complaint I would have with it would ultimately be trickier modifiers on thumb keyboards | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, that thing collected to much dust, I thought the diplay is broken and went black, while it was only a wipe where dost got removed ;-P | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/ to / so / | 21:34 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: dang, that thing collected so much dust, I thought the diplay is broken and went black, while it was only a wipe where dost got removed ;-P | 21:35 |
| Venemo_j | my N950's screen died :( | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again dang! I need to revivie this thing | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh N950, definitely not using that one for anything. Wrong OS | 21:36 |
| FIQ | isn't aegis easy to get rid of though | 21:36 |
| FIQ | luke-jr, ah | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I hate an OS that tells me "MALF!" when I touch a silly harmless init script or whatever | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg | 21:38 |
| Venemo_j | was cool in 2011 | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MALF never was cool | 21:38 |
| Venemo_j | not MALF | 21:38 |
| FIQ | that's dumb | 21:39 |
| Venemo_j | but the device was | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 21:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Werner got one a 6 months ago and went "SHIT! why didn't Nokia sell those?" | 21:39 |
| FIQ | but I have a feeling they "had" to | 21:39 |
| FIQ | as in, they were persuaded by operators to do it | 21:40 |
| KotCzarny | not operators, managers probably | 21:40 |
| Venemo_j | there were rumors | 21:40 |
| FIQ | IIRC the n900 got into operator trouble for not being able to be locked | 21:40 |
| Venemo_j | about that | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for the rationale of Aegis? | 21:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | err N900 *was* able to get locked, at least SIMlocked | 21:41 |
| FIQ | uh | 21:41 |
| FIQ | how do you lock a phone | 21:41 |
| FIQ | that allows you to be root | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a modem thing, not APE | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a BB5 phone like many other Nokia phones | 21:42 |
| FIQ | mhm | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aegis was more about overclocking and generally gaining control over the ecosystem again. More sales-speak they decided to make money from software and that didn't pan out with OVI and maemo5 | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and finally Nokia died from that ill concept of "make money from appshop" | 21:44 |
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| Venemo | they died from the ill concept of betting too much on symbian and killing off the in-house competitors to that | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that too, to some degree | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however symbian had a working ecosystem but no future | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while maemo never had an ecosystem like a "decent product", it always was FOSS | 21:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | more FOSS than nokia sales droids liked it | 21:47 |
| Venemo | they should've invested more into maemo and maybe should've made a symbian runtime on top of that. by the time they realized their mistake (and bought Qt), it was too late | 21:47 |
| Venemo | who knows | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they should have focused on selling decent hardware rather than trying to make money from appshops | 21:48 |
| KotCzarny | they should've gave maemo more freedom to experiment, not trying to sell out on it | 21:48 |
| Venemo | anyway, I believe nokia's mistake was mismanagement, simply | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OVI was an epic failure | 21:48 |
| Venemo | I wasn't sorry to see them go | 21:48 |
| Venemo | (although I was sorry for the good engineers that worked there) | 21:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yep. A pity some of the worst of Nokia spirit got ported to Jolla | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while some of the best got lost during that transition | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or maybe, it was already lost at that time, drowned in Aegis | 21:51 |
| Venemo | indeed | 21:51 |
| Venemo | who knows. | 21:51 |
| Venemo | to be honest I'm not sure if actually anyone is working on anything in jolla | 21:51 |
| Venemo | we gave them hundreds of bugreports since 2013, none of which have been fixed since (okay, maybe one or two) | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which is one of the nasty concepts inherited from Nokia. Completely opaque | 21:52 |
| KotCzarny | drowned in bugs | 21:52 |
| Venemo | at least from the few dozens that I personally reported,, only one or two is fixed, a few are marked as "this is a feature, not a bug", the rest just isn't cared about | 21:53 |
| Venemo | I was really sorry to see all that | 21:53 |
| FIQ | Venemo: I get the impression that they have too few engineers to be productive with the OS itself | 21:53 |
| FIQ | s/engineers/workers/ | 21:53 |
| infobot | FIQ meant: Venemo: I get the impression that they have too few workers to be productive with the OS itself | 21:53 |
| Venemo | I don't know. they got some good people still | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think Jolla simply didn't learn the lessons from maemo | 21:54 |
| Venemo | but since the communication from them is 0, I'm not sure what's going on in there | 21:54 |
| FIQ | and I thought they were supposed to be open | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems there's no Quim Gill at Jolla either | 21:55 |
| FIQ | and transparent | 21:55 |
| Venemo | they were a lot more open and transparent in 2013 than they are now | 21:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | https://de.linkedin.com/in/quimgil | 21:58 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: what about a watercooled, overclocked-to-smithereens omap3? | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Jolla seems to lack understanding of the importance of a porson like Quim in their company | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: what about it? did it reach the Jupiter already? | 22:00 |
| kerio | no, for the neo900 2 | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no way | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMAP3 is already almost EOL | 22:00 |
| kerio | replace the screen with a vat for the liquid nitrogen | 22:00 |
| kerio | bump the cpu to 2ghz | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMAP3 has _no_ decent digital video interface | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMAP3 has a max of 1GB RAM | 22:01 |
| luke-jr | I thought OMAP5 was EOL? | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err | 22:03 |
| FIQ | who is Quim anyway? | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMAP and TI embedded is End Of R&D | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: https://de.linkedin.com/in/quimgil | 22:03 |
| FIQ | "OMAP3 is already almost EOL" <- almost? | 22:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: yes, we can still buy chips | 22:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it even seems TI still builds them | 22:04 |
| Venemo | FIQ: Quim was the community manager when Maemo was a thing. he stepped down after Harmattan (aka. Maemo 6) turned out to be a dead end | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually it's rather like OMAP5 is not fully evaluated yet | 22:05 |
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| FIQ | Venemo: ah | 22:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Quim basically was the heart and soul of maemo | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | allegedly he talked Nokia into maemo, to start with | 22:07 |
| Venemo | I haven't heard that before | 22:08 |
| Venemo | what I remember is that he turned kinda bitter by the end | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I heard it as hearsay or reference in some IRC gossip a few years ago | 22:08 |
| Venemo | which is pretty understandable considering... | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 22:08 |
| Venemo | the thing is, I only joined the party with the N900, so I missed the really fun early days | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >> open source advocate @ MeeGo team Nokia April 2008 – January 2012 (3 years 10 months)<< | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually Carsten Raterman Haitzler introduced me to N800 in Taipei when we shared the Openmoko apartment | 22:13 |
| KotCzarny | venemo, buy yourself 770, n800 and n810, just for fun (and they are cheap) | 22:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Rasterman* | 22:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I instantly got me a N810 and was sold to the concept | 22:13 |
| Venemo | KotCzarny: I considered that, and would even buy an N810 if it wasn't for the outdated cpu arch | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then Raster and me tried to convince Openmoko of the benefits of OMAP and its zeroclocking, compared to the quite awkward suspend-to-RAM concept of OM's devices | 22:15 |
| KotCzarny | venemo, you still can write useful apps and have use cases for it | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: sou prolly wuldn't. I tried and it's near impossible to find a N810 now, I'm happy I got two working ones | 22:16 |
| KotCzarny | because if you drop the bloat, its cpu is enough | 22:16 |
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| Venemo | KotCzarny: my use case would be on-the-go hacking and productivity | 22:16 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: there are always some of them on the bay | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wow | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | last time I checked there was zilch | 22:17 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: btw, is the new kernel you spoke of part of the community SSU? | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 22:19 |
| KotCzarny | not yet | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CSSU is about conservative maintenance of maemo, a new kernel would be part of FPTF I'd guess | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | KP is still 2.6.28, no? | 22:20 |
| Venemo | ah. | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu | 22:21 |
| infobot | [cssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update) | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf | 22:21 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 | 22:21 |
| Venemo | okay | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU#Testers | 22:22 |
| KotCzarny | im still searching for cheap nokia 770 | 22:23 |
| KotCzarny | (for science and stuff) | 22:23 |
| Venemo | btw, taking a look at the design of the pyra, I'd say that the pcb which has the CPU and RAM could fit and one would "only" need to design a smaller pcb for the connectors to fit it the hw in a smaller case | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, exactly | 22:26 |
| Venemo | which seems to be a doable thing if you get rid of the sd card slots and the extra usb ports | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | where "PCB for connectors" is a tad misleading since that PCB has a lot more than only connectors | 22:26 |
| Venemo | sure | 22:27 |
| Venemo | but (judging by the photos) most of the area is occupied by the two sd card readers and the usbs | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually I guess 80% to 90% of the whole BOM sit on the main PCB | 22:28 |
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| KotCzarny | http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-11-NEW-Nokia-770-Internet-Tablet-/172175449336?hash=item281674dcf8:g:VuEAAOSwWTRW0LVi | 22:28 |
| KotCzarny | eheheh, any takers? | 22:28 |
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| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: out of curiosity, how many pcb layers are there? | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno, I'm not a part of Pyra R&D team | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *guess* they tried hard to get away with only 4 layers on main PCB | 22:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the 8+ layers are only needed to breakout the huge SoC BGA | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: but why not ask those questions on #dragonbox-pyra ? | 22:34 |
| Venemo | and the Neo900? | 22:35 |
| Venemo | I mean, how many layers do you guys have? | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | The Neo900 hopes to get away with 4 layers for LOWER and 8 layers for UPPER | 22:35 |
| Venemo | lower what, and upper what? | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PCB | 22:35 |
| Venemo | I wasn't aware that there were two pcbs in it | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/talk.pdf page 11 | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | 22:37 |
| Venemo | ah, I see | 22:38 |
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| Venemo | cool stuff | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, Werner's talk is brilliant | 22:39 |
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| Venemo | did you talk too? your name's on the slides | 22:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe, I have a speacial appearance in the background a few times, bringing Werner a bottle of Club Mate | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't do talks | 22:41 |
| Venemo | you shy? | 22:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | 10:53 | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((shy)) that too, plus I can't talk | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, you would either cringe or fall asleep | 22:43 |
| Venemo | that's just another skill one can develop | 22:44 |
| Venemo | hm. | 22:44 |
| Venemo | since we're talking hardware | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm happy with the skillset I got | 22:44 |
| Venemo | there is a thing I don't understand and was too afraid to ask | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just ask :-D | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hint: #neo900 | 22:45 |
| Venemo | that is: why isn't there any chip vendor selling hand-solderable Cortex-A CPUs? like, I'd be pretty happy to see something in QFN | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, it has some 500+ pins | 22:45 |
| Venemo | not all of them | 22:45 |
| Venemo | I mean, not all of them would actually need all of those pins | 22:46 |
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| Venemo | the closest thing I found was a thing called Vybrid (with Cortex-A5) in QFP | 22:46 |
| Venemo | the rest of them are all BGA, which, sadly, I can't hand-solder | 22:47 |
| KotCzarny | make a universal 'socket' for bga? | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (two PCB) see 13:35 | 22:48 |
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| sunshavi | that video sounds interesting, even i am not watching it | 22:50 |
| sunshavi | on n900 now | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you should watch it if you're interested in Neo900 | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maemo history | 22:51 |
| sunshavi | sure. I am an n800 user | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's prolly not suited for N900 playback, yes | 22:51 |
| sunshavi | KotCzarny: perhaps with oscp? | 22:54 |
| Sicelo | not with oscp either | 22:55 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer05: so out of curiosity, how do you make a proto with a BGA chip? | 22:55 |
| Sicelo | N900 just lacks the processing power for that video :) | 22:55 |
| Venemo | nah | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in a factory that has all the tooling | 22:56 |
| Venemo | but then it must be expensive even to just make one | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, it is expensive | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we could try to do the placement and soldering "at home", but it's prolly not worth the risk and hassle | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki vapor phase soldering | 22:57 |
| infobot | I couldn't find a matching article in wikipedia, look for yerselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=vapor+phase+soldering&go=Go | 22:57 |
| Venemo | placement sounds like the issue here | 22:57 |
| Venemo | the soldering you could do with just hot air | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.google.de/search?q=vapor+phase+soldering | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | easier than hot air | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | placement and solder paste application, yes | 22:58 |
| ceene | by the way, i was yesterday at the factory that solders components for our company's boards | 22:59 |
| ceene | and i asked them about PoP such as n900 and ram replacement | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what did they answer? | 23:00 |
| ceene | i was told they can do it, but that it's q a difficult process with no guarantees | 23:00 |
| ceene | they showed me the machine, a vacuum extractor with several heads that can be used to fit the right size of the chip | 23:01 |
| ceene | he told me that even before taking out the ram, odds are the whole package would get out | 23:02 |
| ceene | so... basically only do that if one of the chips is broken and you're willing to give it a try | 23:02 |
| ceene | i asked for homemade options and he didn't think it to be feasible | 23:03 |
| KotCzarny | um | 23:07 |
| KotCzarny | if it would be feasible to fit 1gb onto n900.. | 23:07 |
| Venemo | PoP = ? | 23:07 |
| ceene | package on package | 23:08 |
| ceene | ram is soldered on top of cpu | 23:08 |
| ceene | they told me they could do try to do it, without any guarantee | 23:08 |
| KotCzarny | but seriously, n900 with more ram would rocke the show | 23:09 |
| Venemo | ah. that. | 23:09 |
| ceene | yeah, simply me ram would be something amazing | 23:09 |
| ceene | s/me/more/ | 23:09 |
| infobot | ceene meant: yeah, simply more ram would be something amazing | 23:09 |
| Venemo | @ BGA and handsoldering: I know some guys who make stencils from paper and do it that way :) | 23:09 |
| ceene | in a couple months we're gonna make a bga based board | 23:10 |
| ceene | i can tell you prices then | 23:10 |
| Venemo | sure | 23:13 |
| Venemo | let me know | 23:14 |
| ceene | infobot: are you able to remind me of things? | 23:15 |
| ceene | i'll have to remember by myself | 23:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Venemo: (VPS) http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/307715 | 23:20 |
| Venemo | sorry DocScrutinizer05 I forgot most of my German over the years | 23:21 |
| Venemo | which post should I look at? | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, the one with the pictures, it explains the pretty low resource demands for VPS | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just look at the pics, the text is less important | 23:24 |
| Venemo | VPS = ? | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Vapor Phase soldering | 23:25 |
| Venemo | ah, that | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: yes, separating PoP is basically not an option | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we used new SoC too when we tested the 1GB RAM PoPs on our pimped BB-xM | 23:27 |
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| ceene | which components are going to be on each board? | 23:34 |
| ceene | i haven't fully undertood the problem in the slides you linked before | 23:34 |
| ceene | *understood | 23:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: isn't that a question for #neo900 ? | 23:46 |
| ceene | undoubtedly, yeah | 23:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, the schematics have a note on each sheet whether it's UPPEr or LOWER, afaik | 23:47 |
| ceene | ah, okay | 23:47 |
| ceene | well, i'll watch the talk tomrrow | 23:47 |
| ceene | i'm sure it solves some doubts | 23:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway for most components the placement is obvious from the connections they need to make and space we have to place them | 23:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | everything RF goes to LOWER since there are the antennas. Same for audio and all the switches | 23:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously also the USB jack and the AV jack | 23:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CPU and interface to display goes to UPPER | 23:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kbd is upper too | 23:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | camera goes to UPPER | 23:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it will stick to upper with a doublesided sticky foam patch and connect to upper with the B2B connector | 23:59 |
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