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| Oksana | jonwil, freemangordon : I am not sure what codelockui is, but it could benefit from ability to accept alternative modes of input (like, hw kb, or something) if it does not yet. Actually, it would be great if all those code-thingies used the same numeric-keypad, and this numeric-keypad could be slowly enhanced to accept hw-kb input, handwriting-input, voice-input, and such, with plugins maybe... | 02:21 |
|---|---|---|
| Oksana | ...(not all users would want bloated keypad) | 02:21 |
| jonwil | codelockui is definatly the keypad input | 02:21 |
| jonwil | its used for device lock | 02:21 |
| jonwil | and sim pin lock | 02:21 |
| jonwil | more specifically its used by hildon-control-panel, connui-conndlgs-cellular, libconnui-cellular, osso-applet-devicelock and osso-systemui-devlock | 02:27 |
| Oksana | Ah, so it is the numeric-keypad used everywhere! Then seeing this LGPL-software RE-ed would be great indeed. | 02:32 |
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| jonwil | https://github.com/community-ssu/codelockui is what I have done so far | 03:08 |
| jonwil | The missing pieces are things I am unable to reverse engineer and need help with | 03:09 |
| jonwil | but yes once freemangordon (or someone else) finishes the missing pieces it will be possible to improve it " | 03:10 |
| jonwil | e.g. portrait support | 03:10 |
| jonwil | or hw kb input | 03:10 |
| jonwil | or etc | 03:10 |
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| Oksana | On a less serious note: what about EBay Telepathy plugin? https://go.developer.ebay.com/what-ebay-api To exchange messages with other EBay members? And maybe something else, like feedback, dispute, and whatever? | 05:46 |
| Oksana | I don't particularly like EBay, so feel free to recommend an alternative website for buying and selling (I am mostly interested in electronics) | 05:48 |
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| Oksana | Also, are there any text editors which can be synced (via plugin or something) with a website ( like https://www.fictionpress.com/ ), or output ( via plugin or something) a epub or pdf or something file, and are well-suited for writing a book (rather than "let's turn text upside down, colour it magenta, and insert video of space shuttle launch" office work ) | 06:29 |
| Oksana | Is somebody interested in porting Maemopad+ from Diablo to Fremantle? http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Porting_Software/Porting_MaemoPad | 06:37 |
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| KotCzarny | oksana: google docs? | 08:15 |
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| klopsi-u3 | good morning | 10:10 |
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| Maxdamantus | Though he's gone, supposedly typesetting systems like LaTeX are meant to be good for writing books, since the layout aspects are mostly abstracted away. | 10:22 |
| KotCzarny | oksana is a she | 10:23 |
| Maxdamantus | or she. | 10:23 |
| KotCzarny | most names ending in 'a' are female | 10:23 |
| bencoh | err | 10:24 |
| Vajb | depends of region one is from. | 10:31 |
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| Sicelo | good general rules is that there are no girls on irc | 10:40 |
| Sicelo | :) | 10:40 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 10:41 |
| KotCzarny | that's true too | 10:41 |
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| bencoh | meh | 10:45 |
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| klopsi-u3 | i only know 3 active ones | 11:22 |
| klopsi-u3 | no four | 11:22 |
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| * jonwil has run out of things to work on :( | 12:29 | |
| ceene | jonwil: you could always implement textsecure on yappari | 12:30 |
| ceene | :P | 12:30 |
| Maxdamantus | Port the Maemo packages to Debian. | 12:30 |
| ceene | or help me find out why whatsapp bans people who create new groups | 12:30 |
| jonwil | I dont know the first thing about uappari or textsecure or whatsapp :P | 12:30 |
| ceene | neither do i! | 12:30 |
| ceene | so you could be the first of us to learn | 12:30 |
| ceene | :P | 12:30 |
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| bencoh | isn't there a libpurple/pidgin plugin for textsecure? | 12:37 |
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| Sicelo | jonwil: possibly silly idea .. Ovi Maps wouldn't be considered practical to RE? | 12:39 |
| jonwil | definatly not | 12:40 |
| Sicelo | i guessed so. too big :/ | 12:40 |
| jonwil | Not unless a Gecko engine guru appears who can help understand all the Gecko APIs maps is using | 12:40 |
| jonwil | be back soon, need to get to the shops before they shut :) | 12:41 |
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| bencoh | Sicelo: why would we do that anyway? | 12:42 |
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| Sicelo | 1) make it point to latest compatible nokia maps. 2) maybe even modify it to us N9/Here maps | 12:45 |
| Sicelo | s/us/use/ | 12:46 |
| infobot | Sicelo meant: 1) make it point to latest compatible nokia maps. 2) maybe even modify it to use N9/Here maps | 12:46 |
| bencoh | sure, but why do you want to use Ovi Maps? | 12:47 |
| Sicelo | because they work :) | 12:47 |
| KotCzarny | adding 'find address' would be nice too | 12:47 |
| Sicelo | nokia's maps are way better than google maps for my area | 12:47 |
| Sicelo | KotCzarny: what's find address? | 12:48 |
| Sicelo | another thing that could be added (once someone knows how to extract info from stored maps) is offline search | 12:49 |
| KotCzarny | enter city name, enter street name, enter building number, map zooms into specified address | 12:49 |
| KotCzarny | yes, that's what i meant | 12:49 |
| Sicelo | ok. i was surprised because it is there, just not offline | 12:50 |
| KotCzarny | same | 12:50 |
| KotCzarny | either they keep db online only, or its just a way to keep control | 12:51 |
| Sicelo | it seems we have the db offline. but they didn't implement search | 12:51 |
| Sicelo | there's a bug report for it. closed as WONTFIX because N900 is an always-connected device .. that was the 'reasoning' :) | 12:52 |
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| Sicelo | local search is definitely doable, because OM Voiceserver has something like it | 12:55 |
| KotCzarny | hehe, sure, always connected, depends on region ;) | 12:56 |
| KotCzarny | surely it would make those bad modem chip n900s valuable as navis | 12:56 |
| Sicelo | you probably would have an ass of a time trying to get gps lock though. working sim (even without a-gps) helps a lot with lock | 13:01 |
| Sicelo | ~rrlp | 13:02 |
| infobot | rrlp is, like, the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP | 13:02 |
| KotCzarny | i have never had gps lock, even if my modem works fine | 13:02 |
| Sicelo | why not? | 13:04 |
| KotCzarny | maybe i'm too impatient | 13:04 |
| KotCzarny | but i've tried leaving it on for a few minutes | 13:04 |
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| jonwil | ok, back :) | 13:07 |
| Sicelo | KotCzarny: try using location-test-gui | 13:09 |
| KotCzarny | which package has it? | 13:10 |
| Sicelo | it's standalone i believe. | 13:10 |
| KotCzarny | http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/non-free/l/location-test-gui/ | 13:11 |
| KotCzarny | humm | 13:11 |
| Sicelo | yes :) nothing depends on it by the way | 13:12 |
| KotCzarny | also there http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/non-free/l/location-test-gui/ | 13:12 |
| KotCzarny | how come apt-get is not finding it | 13:13 |
| jonwil | ok, so back to thinking about things I can do next for maemo that are actually possible :P | 13:13 |
| KotCzarny | is it sdk repo? | 13:13 |
| jonwil | yes its in the SDK repo | 13:13 |
| KotCzarny | jonwil: make a tmo thread asking people | 13:13 |
| KotCzarny | more read there | 13:13 |
| jonwil | last time I did that people suggested stuff that I cant do :) | 13:13 |
| Sicelo | KotCzarny: not sdk afaict | 13:13 |
| Sicelo | definitely not. confirmed | 13:14 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo, i think it is sdk repo | 13:14 |
| Sicelo | nop | 13:14 |
| Sicelo | $ apt-cache policy location-test-gui | 13:15 |
| Sicelo | http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/tools/non-free Packages | 13:16 |
| Sicelo | but | 13:16 |
| Sicelo | $ apt-cache policy sysklogd | 13:16 |
| Sicelo | http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/sdk/free Packages | 13:16 |
| KotCzarny | hmm | 13:17 |
| KotCzarny | tools might be sdk repo | 13:17 |
| KotCzarny | anyway, 4 satellites in view, 0 in use | 13:17 |
| KotCzarny | cellmo: online | 13:17 |
| Sicelo | then some patience :) you're indoors? 4 sats is a little too few? | 13:18 |
| KotCzarny | put the n900 near the window | 13:18 |
| KotCzarny | 5 sats, 0 in use | 13:19 |
| KotCzarny | 7 | 13:19 |
| KotCzarny | also, that repo has sdk-fiasco-gen | 13:20 |
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| Sicelo | there is a "developer tools" repo *and* "sdk" repo | 13:22 |
| KotCzarny | still no lock | 13:22 |
| Sicelo | bad device :) | 13:23 |
| Sicelo | leave it alone .. | 13:23 |
| KotCzarny | 8 sats, 0 in use | 13:23 |
| KotCzarny | how long it should take to aquire a lock? | 13:24 |
| Sicelo | i seem to have read 12 mins is a good average for any gps. n900 does suck a bit though | 13:25 |
| KotCzarny | o.O | 13:25 |
| KotCzarny | 12 mins? | 13:25 |
| Sicelo | yup | 13:25 |
| KotCzarny | who designed that technology? | 13:25 |
| KotCzarny | 9 sats | 13:25 |
| KotCzarny | 10 | 13:26 |
| KotCzarny | i've read lock could be acquired with 4 sats | 13:27 |
| Maxdamantus | all you need is a compare-and-swap, maybe a futex. | 13:27 |
| Sicelo | yes, it can. mine locked with 2 just now (then again, i use my gps a lot now) | 13:27 |
| KotCzarny | pn the positive note it can see sats, getting lock is another story tho | 13:28 |
| KotCzarny | 11 sats | 13:29 |
| KotCzarny | is precise clock a requirement? | 13:29 |
| KotCzarny | 12 sats | 13:29 |
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| Sicelo | no idea. should not be (because gps should actually update your clock) | 13:31 |
| Sicelo | except on n900 it doesn't work :) | 13:31 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 13:31 |
| Sicelo | n900 - broken by design | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | nah, only few things broken | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | wow | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | sats 5/11 | 13:32 |
| Sicelo | locked :) | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | 0/12 | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | not anymore | 13:32 |
| Sicelo | um | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | but for a brief moment.. | 13:32 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 13:32 |
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| Sicelo | lots of noise, i guess | 13:34 |
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| KotCzarny | im not in city | 13:34 |
| jonwil | Interesting, looks like you can get more information from N900 GPS than I thought | 13:36 |
| jonwil | like signal strength of various sattelites | 13:36 |
| KotCzarny | most sats report 25-35dBHz carrier to noise density ratio | 13:36 |
| KotCzarny | locked | 13:37 |
| KotCzarny | nice | 13:37 |
| KotCzarny | accuracy 20-80m | 13:38 |
| Sicelo | jonwil: someone hinted that we can even update the time on N900 via GPS ... but i don't think they explained how. but it sounded like the time info is available (maybe dbus?) | 13:39 |
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| KotCzarny | if you look at location-test-gps there is time included | 13:42 |
| KotCzarny | might be local time tho | 13:43 |
| KotCzarny | im happy to know my gps is working, woo | 13:43 |
| KotCzarny | 100m accuracy makes it bad for navigation tho | 13:43 |
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| jonwil | still no closer to finding something useful to do... | 14:13 |
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| zGrr | moin :) | 14:19 |
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| ceene | KotCzarny: are you indoors? | 14:36 |
| KotCzarny | yup | 14:36 |
| ceene | any gps that locks indoors is a pretty damn good gps | 14:36 |
| KotCzarny | well, i've put n900 just beside the window | 14:36 |
| ceene | in my experience, n900's is a great gps with bad software behind ;) | 14:37 |
| KotCzarny | but when i was on the vacations i tried n900 lock outdoors too | 14:37 |
| KotCzarny | near the lake | 14:37 |
| KotCzarny | it didnt work (or i didnt wait long enough) | 14:37 |
| ceene | there's clear-gps-cache | 14:37 |
| ceene | it's a closed source executable i found somewhere on tmo | 14:38 |
| ceene | and it solves some problems | 14:38 |
| ceene | sometimes some bad data gets stuck and gps' cache needs to be flushed | 14:38 |
| ceene | if that happens you won't get a lock unless you clear the cache | 14:39 |
| ceene | it's not something that happens frequently at all, but may happen | 14:39 |
| Jack64 | Is there a way to have the clock sync via GPS? It's handy for me cause I don't have a SIM card on my N900 | 14:40 |
| ceene | there should be | 14:41 |
| ceene | the thing is nokia opted not to use gpsd | 14:42 |
| ceene | but if there's a way to get gps' datetime you can set time from that | 14:42 |
| ceene | if n900 used gpsd, we could use ntp or chronyd as is done on normal linux systems | 14:43 |
| Jack64 | right | 14:43 |
| ceene | jonwil: maybe you want to RE libgps or whatever and make a layer on top of gpsd, so we can use normal things and still use maemo specific api | 14:44 |
| Jack64 | but if there is a way, is it via a menu item or some binary? | 14:44 |
| ceene | i guess it's via some application | 14:46 |
| ceene | jonwil: a gpsd driver would be needed to read nmea messages (don't know if some existing one would work as is) and a library that implements maemo's gps api by reading gpsd data, which is exposed via shm or via libgpsd | 14:48 |
| jonwil | The best way forward with this would be (IMO) to write something that talks to liblocation (N900 GPS library) and then talks to gpsd as a gpsd plugin | 14:49 |
| ceene | i'd rather have gpsd talk directly with the hardware | 14:50 |
| ceene | just seems more natural | 14:50 |
| jonwil | Its not that simple, the GPS hardware on N900 is quite complex | 14:50 |
| jonwil | plus the AGPS stuff (handled by location-proxy) is a pain to deal with too | 14:50 |
| ceene | i don't know how gpsd manages agps, if it does | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | for starters even normal gps mode would be nice | 14:52 |
| ceene | also, having gpsd talk with the hardware and present the maemo api would allow easy porting of maemo to another hardware | 14:52 |
| ceene | your idea would only let us use gpsd on n900, which is a very good thing in itself, but incomplete | 14:53 |
| jonwil | On the N900 the GPS hardware is just another interface on the cellular modem and you talk to it in the same way with phonet/isi packets | 14:54 |
| jonwil | http://www.cncmods.net/files/pn_location_isi.h is the header file matching the GPS stuff on the N900 | 14:54 |
| jonwil | There is a low-level library called liblas that builds and sends specific packets | 14:55 |
| jonwil | Then we have daemons called location-daemon and location-proxy that use liblas to talk to the chip via liblas | 14:58 |
| ceene | too much complexity for so little :s | 14:59 |
| jonwil | then liblication talks to location-daemon over dbus | 15:00 |
| jonwil | its complex because it has to handle AGPS (location-proxy exists to act as a conduit between AGPS SUPL server and cellular modem) | 15:00 |
| jonwil | And it has to provide other info than just GPS coordinates | 15:01 |
| jonwil | like strength levels for the satellites it can see | 15:01 |
| ceene | but that is solved with nmea messages by any other gps | 15:02 |
| jonwil | blame Nokia for making it so complicated | 15:03 |
| ceene | yep | 15:03 |
| Sicelo | i seem to think jacekowski said time *is* already available on N900 via gps ... but i don't know where you can 'catch' it | 15:05 |
| jonwil | Whats better about using GPS for time, cellular network provides time just fine | 15:08 |
| jonwil | Or is this for cases where you have no SIM or no service? | 15:08 |
| KotCzarny | jonwil, cell time doesnt work for me | 15:08 |
| jonwil | why not? | 15:08 |
| KotCzarny | dont know | 15:08 |
| KotCzarny | it just doesnt work | 15:09 |
| jonwil | do you have things set properly under "date and time" in control panel? | 15:10 |
| jonwil | i.e. the "update automatically" box ticked? | 15:10 |
| jonwil | If you dont, cell time wont work | 15:10 |
| Sicelo | or your operator doesn't send it | 15:11 |
| KotCzarny | yup | 15:11 |
| KotCzarny | default after reflash is automatic network time | 15:11 |
| KotCzarny | but it doesnt work for me | 15:11 |
| jonwil | there is a dbus command you can run to determine for sure what, if anything, your operator is sending | 15:11 |
| KotCzarny | magic phrase? | 15:13 |
| jonwil | dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.phone.net /com/nokia/phone/net Phone.Net.get_network_time_info | 15:14 |
| jonwil | Run that as root on your N900 | 15:14 |
| jonwil | and see what it spits out | 15:14 |
| KotCzarny | apparently it returns proper values | 15:16 |
| jonwil | ok, so go to "control panel" and then "time and date" and what do you see? | 15:16 |
| Sicelo | nice | 15:16 |
| KotCzarny | right now i have it disabled because i disabled it manually, but after flash/rebooting its ticked | 15:17 |
| KotCzarny | how often that automatic setting is called? | 15:17 |
| jonwil | if you tick it then close the control panel what exactly happens? | 15:17 |
| jonwil | Sometimes I find that setting the time and date manually then ticking the automatic box makes things work | 15:18 |
| KotCzarny | nothing because time was already set | 15:18 |
| Sicelo | Jack64: try gpsrecorder for setting time from gps :) | 15:20 |
| Sicelo | bug 10163 last comment | 15:20 |
| povbot | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/10163 GPS does not automatically set time of device. | 15:20 |
| bencoh | is there some hook script when connecting to wifi/gprs? | 15:24 |
| Sicelo | guess you'd have to create your own ..listen via dbus? | 15:26 |
| jonwil | dont know of any easy way to listen for gps activation via dbus | 15:35 |
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| Sicelo | by the way, can one boot own distro on the jolla? | 15:50 |
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| zGrr | On the Jolla tablet? | 16:34 |
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| Sicelo | that, or the phone... | 16:36 |
| KotCzarny | ~wiki jolla | 16:37 |
| infobot | At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{About|the company|the smartphone|Jolla (mobile phone)|the tablet|Jolla Tablet|other uses}} {{Use mdy dates|date=July 2012}} {{Infobox company |name = Jolla Oy |logo = |caption = |type = Private |traded_as = |industry = Mobile devices, Consgaumer Electronics/Devices |predecessor = MeeGo team from Nokia |foundation = Pirkkala, Finland ({{Start date|2011|03|29}}) |founder = {{u | 16:37 |
| KotCzarny | oh well | 16:37 |
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| bencoh | Sicelo: they run a modified android kernel | 16:46 |
| bencoh | with some libhybris adaptation | 16:46 |
| bencoh | afaict | 16:46 |
| Sicelo | oh gosh! why? | 16:47 |
| bencoh | because qualcomm | 16:47 |
| bencoh | and gfx drivers and that kind of stuff | 16:47 |
| KotCzarny | o.O | 16:48 |
| bencoh | I haven't looked into that for quite some time so maybe I'm wrong and that was for another device/design, but iirc that's how it works | 16:48 |
| bencoh | I know for sure that's how sailfishos works for community ports | 16:49 |
| bencoh | (on nexus*) | 16:49 |
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| zGrr | Sicelo: i guess, it will be much easier with the Jolla Phone, than with Jolla Tablet. I only guess, because i don't know because i still wait for my jolla tablet. | 16:57 |
| zGrr | Sicelo: but then, why would you even want to boot your on distro on jolla phone? | 16:59 |
| Sicelo | why would i not? :) | 17:01 |
| Sicelo | i can do it on N900 | 17:01 |
| zGrr | Sicelo: but n900 is (more or less) open platform. jolla phone is as open as soviet union once was. | 17:02 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 17:03 |
| Sicelo | haha. it's a pity though | 17:04 |
| zGrr | It should be different with jolla tablet, but then i expect them to completely lock it with uefi crap. | 17:05 |
| Sicelo | N900 won't last forever .. we may love it & its hw kbd .. but at some point we will be basically forced to move on. looks like we'll go back to feature phones after all | 17:06 |
| Sicelo | :) | 17:06 |
| zGrr | i have the same problem. | 17:06 |
| Jack64 | Sicelo: thanks for the gpsrecorder tip, just "apt-got" it :) | 17:06 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo: stock up on n900s then! | 17:07 |
| Sicelo | yw Jack64. | 17:07 |
| KotCzarny | i have 3.5 already | 17:07 |
| zGrr | hopefuly dragonbox pyra would come out before my n900 dies. or neo900 | 17:07 |
| Sicelo | not all of us can afford to stock up :( | 17:07 |
| KotCzarny | i bought them as cheap as ~25usd | 17:07 |
| Sicelo | i have 2 and already feel blessed | 17:07 |
| KotCzarny | one has to watch local classifieds sites tho | 17:07 |
| zGrr | KotCzarny: REALLY? where? | 17:08 |
| KotCzarny | zgrr: olx.pl | 17:08 |
| Sicelo | bout my 2nd for USD14 :) | 17:08 |
| bencoh | "It should be different with jolla tablet" you mean, with a locked intel plateform? :p | 17:08 |
| KotCzarny | bencoh, confusing marketing is the best marketing | 17:09 |
| Sicelo | but .. can't see others, so not much luck anymore. besides, even $14 is a lot of money here | 17:09 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo, still, its much cheaper than neo900 | 17:09 |
| Sicelo | of course. i don't even dream of that in wild dreams | 17:09 |
| zGrr | bencoh: since the hardware is fairly open - more or less generic intel it should be easy to install more or less anything you want, right? | 17:10 |
| bencoh | dunno | 17:10 |
| bencoh | depends on what you want to do with too | 17:10 |
| zGrr | bencoh: but i suppose, they would want to lock it to prevent owners from installing anything they want. how can they do that? with uefi of course! secure boot or whatever they call this shit. | 17:11 |
| bencoh | something like that yeah | 17:12 |
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| Sicelo009N | as long as i can run linux on it, and have as much of the hardware working | 17:15 |
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| Sicelo | /com/nokia/phone/net Phone.Net.get_network_time_info | 17:19 |
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| zGrr | Sicelo: well, it probably can run linux, but you might not be able to install linux. | 17:23 |
| zGrr | but there are no jolla tablets yet. | 17:23 |
| zGrr | except these 200 or so prototypes, they generously sent to some people. | 17:24 |
| zGrr | KotCzarny: very interesting site, this olx.pl | 17:25 |
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| zGrr | KotCzarny: you can get a broken n900 in very good shape for 80zł. | 17:26 |
| bencoh | "broken" | 17:26 |
| bencoh | ? | 17:26 |
| zGrr | KotCzarny: maybe it could be used as a "body donor" for neo900 mainboard? | 17:26 |
| zGrr | or for parts | 17:27 |
| KotCzarny | usually broken == bad usb port | 17:42 |
| KotCzarny | also, sometimes you can get pretty much working device with bad sw or simple to fix | 17:44 |
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| KotCzarny | one of n900 i bought cheaply was 'no sd card/camera button not working'. fix was just replacing back cover | 17:44 |
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| KotCzarny | so if one looks quite often can get good one cheaply | 17:45 |
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| Oksanaa | Nokia N900 is calling itself BCM2048B0 Initialization Configuration. Whyever... | 21:46 |
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| Sicelo | omg! there's even an 'ex-council | 22:32 |
| Sicelo | omg! there's even an 'ex-council cloak | 22:32 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 22:32 |
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| KotCzarny | how about owner/n900 cloak? | 22:34 |
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| Sicelo | Oksanaa: yes, the name occasionally changes. comes from the bluetooth | 23:06 |
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| Oksanaa | Thank you! | 23:22 |
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| Sicelo | bug 8563 | 23:24 |
| povbot | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8563 Device ID reset to "BCM2048B0 Initialization Configuration" | 23:24 |
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| Oksana | Not sure what steps, either. Should be noted that microUSB is broken (so nothing charger-related, unless the device sees phantoms), and I wasn't using bluetooth (though I did accidentally switch on FM transmitter from hildon-status-menu which may or may not be related... they are on the same chip) | 23:40 |
| Sicelo | i think it's just a hiccup when loading the driver/module. fails to read the name set before possibly | 23:42 |
| Oksana | Yes. But it is difficult to reproduce... | 23:53 |
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