IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2014-09-01

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wookey_the maemo5 SDK link here is dead: http://maemo.org/development/sdks/07:48
wookey_should I be using deb http://scratchbox.org/debian/ hathor main07:48
wookey_or http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free non-free07:48
wookey_or something else?07:49
wookey_I see scratchbox2 is in debian, but I assume that won;t work without some tweakage?07:49
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sixwheeledbeastwookey_: see /topic09:51
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wookey_the topic takes me to http://maemo.org/intro/, which links to the the SDK page I posted above, which has a dead link to nokia site. So I don;t see how that helps?09:57
Sicelo~sb09:59
infoboti heard scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB09:59
Sicelowookey_: he meant that ^^09:59
wookey_cheers10:01
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Pali~poettering18:47
infobot'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html18:47
PaliDocScrutinizer05: you can add this link: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html18:48
Palido you know how much some bounty hunter in germany cost?18:50
Palithis is not funny anymore...18:50
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NIN101indeed.18:56
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merlin1991Hence, even in this scheme RPM/DEB are highly relevant, though not strictly as an end-user tool anymore, but as a build tool.19:06
merlin1991wtf²19:06
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DocScrutinizer05~systemd cabal is a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too. See http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html19:06
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0519:06
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DocScrutinizer05~pettering is also see ~systemd cabal19:08
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay19:08
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merlin1991looking at the whole proposal it mainly is a more complicated way of doing winsxs :D19:08
DocScrutinizer05~forget pettering19:08
infoboti forgot pettering, DocScrutinizer0519:08
DocScrutinizer05~poettering is also see ~systemd cabal19:08
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0519:08
DocScrutinizer05Pali: (hunter) I think there's a number of Russian immigrants that are pretty cheap and do literally *everything* when you pay them19:10
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DocScrutinizer05I heard numbers in the ballpark range of 500EUR19:11
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keriowell19:11
keriosurely HiFo has 500EUR to spare19:11
DocScrutinizer05haha, do you think so?19:11
kerioit's for the good of linux!19:12
DocScrutinizer05forget it, such dude won't sign an invoice/receipt. so for HiFo it's impossible19:12
DocScrutinizer05The real problem: the systemd cabal gets paid (by redhat?) for the crap they do19:14
DocScrutinizer05to me the whole thing more and more looks like "the secret war between RedHat and Canonical"19:15
DocScrutinizer05>>Cryptographically secure verification of the code we execute is relevant on the desktop (like ChromeOS does), but also for apps, for embedded devices and even on servers (in a post-Snowden world, in particular).<< SUUUURE Mr Poettering19:20
DocScrutinizer05~aegis19:20
infobothttp://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or  http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif19:20
DocScrutinizer05ever heard of MD5sum and similar simple straight ways to ensure what you got is what you want?19:21
Paliits not war anymore... canonical chosed systemd too19:21
Luke-Jrsystemd--19:26
wmarone__DocScrutinizer05: I believe that such digests are part of said systems?19:32
wmarone__only they start with SHA-256 and not md519:32
keriowhat the fuck is a "post-snowden world"?19:32
DocScrutinizer05kerio: no idea, AFIK snowden lives19:32
DocScrutinizer05AFAIK even19:33
wmarone__kerio: presumably, one that has you aware of what the NSA does...?19:33
DocScrutinizer05and how's trsuted computing help with that?19:33
DocScrutinizer05lemme try again19:33
DocScrutinizer05and how's trusted computing going to help with that?19:34
kerioDocScrutinizer05: probably the converse19:34
keriotrusted computing is for the nsa19:34
wmarone__presumably if you hold the keys, you can verify the platform19:34
DocScrutinizer05what Poettering suggests is "signed upstram packages" or sth like that, that's not anything like "you hold the keys"19:35
keriowhat the fuck even is a package19:35
keriois it like the app store19:35
wmarone__kerio: asking obvious questions now?19:35
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dos1woah19:35
DocScrutinizer05I more than once explained that "you hold the keys" is a delusion regarding effectiveness, since it is not capable to implement more security than e.g. SElinux19:35
dos1Poettering suggests something like that?19:36
wmarone__signed upstream packages is a good thing, it inhibits MITM attacks where the cryptographic digest is intercepted19:36
DocScrutinizer05dos1: >>We want our images to be trustable (i.e. signed). In fact we want a fully trustable OS, with images that can be verified by a full trust chain from the firmware (EFI SecureBoot!), through the boot loader, through the kernel, and initrd. Cryptographically secure verification of the code we execute is relevant on the desktop (like ChromeOS does), but also for apps, for embedded devices and even on servers (in a post-Snowden world,19:36
DocScrutinizer05in particular).<<19:36
kerioapt already verifies packages with gnupg keys19:37
wmarone__kerio: so "cryptographically signed packageS"19:37
DocScrutinizer05kerio: sure. It's about "Trusted computing"19:37
keriowho's the trusted here19:37
DocScrutinizer05whoever holds the PKI key19:37
DocScrutinizer05and that's NOT you19:37
wmarone__presumably you're placing your trust in your OS vendor19:38
DocScrutinizer05so it's pretty in line with aegis fuckup19:38
DocScrutinizer05incl all the problems19:38
DocScrutinizer05Poettering evidently is a poor system architect, but this time he gone WAY too far19:39
wmarone__I agree, it's better to leave yourself exposed than to look into means of securing one's system19:39
DocScrutinizer05the point is I don't want $random_person to secure MY system19:40
wmarone__then feel free to do it all yourself19:40
wmarone__including audit all the code19:40
DocScrutinizer05feel free to bend over to Poettering19:40
wmarone__be more of an ass?19:40
wmarone__you haven't made an argument19:41
DocScrutinizer05I did, you didn't notice19:41
DocScrutinizer052014-09-01 Mon 18:38:18] <DocScrutinizer05> so it's pretty in line with aegis fuckup19:41
DocScrutinizer05[2014-09-01 Mon 18:38:31] <DocScrutinizer05> incl all the problems19:41
DocScrutinizer05somebody holding the keys of your system and depriving you from doing whatever you want on your own system19:42
wmarone__you forgot your blind assumption that you wont' have any control19:42
kerioat some point you have to sense a fucking pattern19:42
DocScrutinizer05that's an immanent concept detail of that Trusted Computing shit19:42
wmarone__yeah, repeated ignorance19:42
keriothat's literally what the human brain has evolved for19:42
wmarone__it's also good at seeing patterns that aren't there, and confusing them19:43
DocScrutinizer05[2014-09-01 Mon 18:35:52] <DocScrutinizer05> I more than once explained that "you hold the keys" is a delusion regarding effectiveness, since it is not capable to implement more security than e.g. SElinux19:43
kerioi really hope you're right19:43
DocScrutinizer05http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism19:44
wmarone__ah19:45
wmarone__if you want to criticize someone over this, go after Apple and Microsoft19:45
wmarone__bitching about poettering and screamig "omg trusted computing" doesn't lend you to seerious consideration19:47
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DocScrutinizer05when you can't see how what Poettering suggests is exactly the Trusted Computing scheme, then I can't help19:47
kerioholy shit i didn't know someone could be a systemd fanboy19:47
wmarone__kerio: please, spout more stupid shit19:48
wmarone__DocScrutinizer05: so a verifiable and reproducible system is bad?19:48
DocScrutinizer05wmarone__: please, spout more stupid shit19:48
wmarone__DocScrutinizer05: no, I'm asking you a question. Your primary complaint seems to be that a platform could enforce a chain of trust, why is this a bad thing?19:49
DocScrutinizer05I'm sorry for you that you're not able to understand how Trusted computing works and what it means when Poettering says >>mages that can be verified by a full trust chain from the firmware (EFI SecureBoot!), through the boot loader, through the kernel, and initrd.<<19:50
wmarone__remember, the system is indepenent of those who would misusei t19:50
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wmarone__so what you're saying is security is bad19:50
blebIs there any option for supporting group texts on the N900?19:50
DocScrutinizer05see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism and ~aegis and "the HARMATTAN experience[TM]" why this is a bad thing19:51
keriowmarone__: "chain of trust" is inherently bad for security19:51
wmarone__kerio: so the better path is nothing at all?19:51
keriobad security is worse than no security, yes19:52
DocScrutinizer05no, there are like 5 dozen better alternatives19:52
DocScrutinizer05which is what I said twice now19:52
DocScrutinizer05and even nothing at all is better than TC19:52
wmarone__and how are those 5 dozen other systems not also TC?19:52
DocScrutinizer05*sigh*19:53
DocScrutinizer057me suggests Amazon, for finding a few good books19:53
wmarone__"I'm not going to support my argument, go do it for me?"19:54
DocScrutinizer05fckit19:54
DocScrutinizer05[2014-09-01 Mon 18:43:58] <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-09-01 Mon 18:35:52] <DocScrutinizer05> I more than once explained that "you hold the keys" is a delusion regarding effectiveness, since it is not capable to implement more security than e.g. SElinux19:54
wmarone__presumably SELinux would simply be one tool of many19:56
DocScrutinizer05"I'm not going to fix my ignorance, you have to spoonfeed stuff to me"19:56
wmarone__"why won't you just blindly accept what I say!"19:56
wmarone__"no I won't engage you when you question my bitching!"19:57
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DocScrutinizer05"why don't you give me a crashcourse about IT security and Trusted computing in just 5 sentences?"19:57
DocScrutinizer05"No, URL pointers to wiki et al are just not enough, I'm too lazy to do some reading on my own"19:58
DocScrutinizer05"I heard 'SECURITY' buzzword, so it cannot be anything bad with it"19:59
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DocScrutinizer05https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg20:01
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's kind of an overkill, but restricting freedoms for the sake of security is like totalitarianism 10120:04
DocScrutinizer05exactly20:04
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DocScrutinizer05and the whole chain of trust depends on somebody else (considered trustworthy) decided what's a trusted bootloader. Or the chain of trust is broken20:05
DocScrutinizer05handing "the keys" to end user cripples the whole concept of chain of trust to a level where simple unix passwords work way better20:06
DocScrutinizer05than that "Trusted computing" thing20:07
DocScrutinizer05see HARM and aegis20:07
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DocScrutinizer05originally they promised "ther will be open mode". Now there 'is', and it basically renders your system broken. That's not what I call open mode20:08
DocScrutinizer05Does anybody want this kind of 'security'?20:09
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DocScrutinizer05We got stuff like encrypted root filesystem since decades. We got posix permissions and SElinux. We got all sorts of passwords and permission handling. TC only brings *one* new concept to the game: depriving you of your rights to compromise your system whenever you decide to20:11
DocScrutinizer05that's the foundation concept TC is basing on. Take that out and all that's left over of TC is a pile of crap and annoyances20:12
txt-fileyes, the producer … at least it looks so20:14
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APicDocScrutinizer05: Was that 7me intentional or inadvertently?20:18
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* DocScrutinizer05 failed on pressing shiftkey for "/"20:35
DocScrutinizer05intended been "/me"20:36
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DocScrutinizer05ooh, it seems http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html also sugests systemd becomes 2bootloader" now. And obviously *all* linux systems need btrfs now, or they won't be compatible to that new "package distribution system"20:56
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DocScrutinizer05>>And of course, this scheme also applies great to embedded use-cases. Regardless if you build a TV, an IVI system or a phone: you can put together you OS versions as usr trees, and then use btrfs-send-and-receive facilities to deliver them to the systems, and update them there.<< ROTFL20:59
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Pali>> [18:37:38] <kerio> who's the trusted here << Factory of motherboard and SW/FW company21:01
Palinot user, no PKI holder21:02
DocScrutinizer05exactly21:02
kerionice21:02
Paliand also no OS21:02
drathirnice reading... ty...21:02
* drathir now stop like btrfs...21:03
DocScrutinizer05>>This also allows us to implement something that we like to call Operating-System-As-A-Virus.<< crack? Or vodka made from old bread and spiced with random pharma products?21:03
NIN101why not both?21:04
APicDocScrutinizer05: I see, thank You for the Explanation.21:05
* drathir dont like forceing something....21:05
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DocScrutinizer05>>And you don't have to be afraid that any of your personal data is copied too, as the usr sub-volume is the exact version your vendor provided you with.<< I wonder how installing new apps fits into this statement21:06
PaliDocScrutinizer05: I'm afraid that lennart want to use that btrfs subvolumes in systemd and because no other FS implement it btrfs could become dependency for systemd21:06
Paliand this is even worse21:06
drathirlol me like mine luks+lvm...21:06
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keriothat would be *great*21:06
DocScrutinizer05Pali: <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, it seems http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html also sugests systemd becomes 2bootloader" now. And obviously *all* linux systems need btrfs now, or they won't be compatible to that new "package distribution system"21:06
keriopeople would stop using systemd21:06
Paliprocess with PID 1 that needs one FS is total nonsence21:07
Palisee it21:07
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: I agree about it being nonsense, nevertheless it seems that's *exactly* what the systemd cabal is about to shove down our throat21:08
Paliand now when all linux distributions (except gentoo and slackware) switched to systemd... they started listening to lennart and they will do what lennart say21:09
Luke-Jrwhich is why I'm migrating everything to Gentoo soon21:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, that's why we need to start acting *now* and actively denying to follow that poettering path any longer21:09
NIN101he probably almost has more influence than linus these days21:10
PaliLuke-Jr: do you know situation and what gentoo developers want to do?21:10
Luke-JrPali: they continue to maintain a fork of udev21:10
Paliok, this is good21:10
Paliand what will do with init daemon?21:11
Paliand with applications which depends on systemd (new gnome)?21:11
Luke-Jrno idea about GNOME nonsense; I'm happy not using it still21:11
DocScrutinizer05maybe we can convince Linus to "fork" and either announce a poetterin-free "true linux", or simply forbid that crap on linux and force the whole systemd cabal to fork and do their own carrpy poettering-linux distro?21:12
Luke-Jrinit remains sysvinit/init-ng/OpenRC21:12
ShadowJKhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bZId5j2jREQ/U-vlysklvCI/AAAAAAAACrA/B4JggkVJi38/w480-h320-no/bd0fb252416206158627fb0b1bff9b4779dca13f.gif21:12
kerioisn't openrc only a set of scripts21:12
Luke-Jrkerio: it works21:12
DocScrutinizer05a set of scripts is the best you can get21:13
keriono, i mean, don't you use openrc with another init?21:13
kerioor is /sbin/init actually a shellscript as well?21:13
Luke-Jrkerio: sysvinit and init-ng are also installed21:13
keriooic21:13
kerioi thought it was just alternatives21:13
Luke-Jr/sbin/init: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, stripped21:13
kerioLuke-Jr: how big? :)21:13
Luke-Jr41K provided by sys-apps/sysvinit-2.88-r721:14
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if sbin/init shouldn't rather be statically linked21:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: ew, no21:14
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keriobesides, have you actually tried compiling something statically, nowadays?21:15
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: Gentoo has /bin/busybox static as a fallback21:15
PaliLuke-Jr: I heard that gentoo has support for systemd too... so you can choose which init daemon you want to use? (sysvinit/init-ng/openrc/systemd)?21:16
DocScrutinizer05>>It's all the same. Installation becomes replication, not more. Live-CDs and installed systems can be fully identical.<< DANG those guys MUST have been on crack21:16
Palikerio: I tried and small C applications (without too many external libraries) working fine21:16
Luke-JrPali: yes, it's a choice21:16
Palikerio: and maybe using -flto will reduce size and speed up it21:17
kerioPali: that's true in debian too21:17
kerioat least, it's true so far21:17
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* drathir wonder when arch move back from systemd...21:17
PaliLuke-Jr: and how gentoo solving problem that every init daemon using its own format of daemon files (or there are only init.d scripts and every init daemon only using these)?21:17
Luke-Jrkerio: I don't see an eudev pkg in Debian experimental21:17
Palior for every init daemon there is one script/config/systemd service?21:18
DocScrutinizer05kerio: this quote is for you ;-P >>Any library that is not included in the runtime the developer picked must be included in the app itself. This is similar how apps on Android declare one very specific Android version they are developed against. This greatly simplifies application installation, as there's no dependency hell: each app pulls in one runtime<<21:18
kerioJESUS FUCKING CHRIST21:18
Luke-JrPali: I'm not sure init is supported outside of OpenRC21:18
Luke-JrPali: every daemon installs an init script and systemd service21:18
ShadowJKWhat's the point of libraries if they aren't shared :)21:19
* Luke-Jr facepalms21:19
DocScrutinizer05HAHA, asl Poettering21:19
DocScrutinizer05ask*21:19
kerioyou share them between the binaries of the same package? idk21:19
PaliLuke-Jr: ok, so packages have both files (openrc, systemd) and packagers need to provide them21:19
Luke-JrPali: for some definition of "need to"21:19
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: have these idiots never heard of libtool?21:20
DocScrutinizer05Luke-Jr: NFC21:20
DocScrutinizer05~poettering21:20
infobot'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal21:20
kerioDocScrutinizer05: how do i tell icd to connect to the data connection?21:21
keriopls don't say "dbus-something"21:21
Palikerio: look at maemo wiki and search for Phone Control21:21
DocScrutinizer05kerio: sorry, I don't know off top of my head. Maybe ~usb-networking footnotwe helps21:21
Palithat page has that dbus-something described21:21
Sicelohehe21:22
kerio~phonecontrol21:22
infobotfrom memory, phonecontrol is http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control21:22
ShadowJKpoettering is the sinofsky of linux21:23
Palior Elop of Nokia21:23
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Paliwho is lennart's boss?21:24
Paliand who is lennart's boss boss?21:25
Luke-Jranyone have any thoughts on the DragonBox Pyra? http://www.pyra-handheld.com/21:26
PaliI still do not want to belive that all above lennart want this systemd stuff...21:26
PaliLuke-Jr: It has PowerVR™ SGX544-MP221:26
Paliso no thanks21:27
Luke-JrPali: is that bad?21:27
Paliyes, everything from PowerVR gpu chips are the worst option21:27
Pali(closed) drivers will work only with one kernel version and only with one userspace libc/libX (replace X with any library)21:28
Palisee N900, we can be happy that powervr drivers working with stock kernel and also with kernel-power and even after installing CSSU21:29
Luke-JrI guess there are some better options nowadays21:29
Paliyes, everything is better then PowerVR21:29
Paliif nothing more, closed drivers will work21:29
DocScrutinizer05well, you can't chose the GPU of your SOC21:30
Palibut this is not case of powervr21:30
DocScrutinizer05and pyra had to chose OMAP5 in the end21:30
Palisadly, but if you do not need GPU then it is OK21:30
DocScrutinizer05Pyra is supposed to work when sold, so they need to come up with somewhat open drivers for powervr or they need to make sure they don't need the GPU at all21:31
Palianyway do you know some cheap SoC with two ethernet slots? (100M or better 1G) where is linux working? I need box for doing network magic, nothing more21:32
DocScrutinizer05hmm, nope21:32
DocScrutinizer05which doesn't mean a thing since I never checked21:33
Palinow for 60Mbps is my raspberry pi (with second usb ethernet card) working21:33
Palibut I think that this is limit (do not know if 70 or 100 is possible)21:34
kerioPali: dreamplug21:35
kerioand usb 2.0 is probably capped at 100mbps at best21:36
Palithanks21:36
kerioi have a sheevaplug21:37
kerioit's... good21:37
kerioi dunno21:37
kerioit sits there21:37
Pali100mbps limit is theoretical, there is CPU overhead for iptables plus routing... so I'm happy that 60 is working...21:37
kerioi doubt the guruplug will have those limits21:37
kerioit's two gigE21:37
kerio1.2GHz armv521:38
WizzupDidn't the guruplug have heating problems when using both in 1Ghz mode?21:39
PaliI need linux kernel with enabled multicast routing support, 8021q (vlan tagging), ipv6 and ebtables+iptables21:39
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Paliall these requirements are SW, so I think it could work on any NIC which has linux driver21:40
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bencohPali: multicast on 802.1q interfaces can get funny sometimes23:24
bencohit wont work at all on some NICs23:24
Palibencoh: it working fine on rpi nic which is some usb chip...23:25
bencohactually I think "the dumber the better" for that kind of usecases23:25
bencohI had troubles with the cubox-i NIC23:26
bencohI havent tried to fiddle with offloading options yet ... maybe there is one I need to disable for it to work23:26
bencoh(btw, it only has one ethernet NIC, but you might want to check it - nice board and cool devteam :)23:29
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