IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2013-08-21

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DocScrutinizer05	it never even occurred to me that you could press the keys one after the other	00:02
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DocScrutinizer05	anyway shift is "sticky" sometimes (you can press and release it as prefix qualifier) while afaik ctrl never is	00:03
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: rtlsdr is pretty cool, i mentioned that to a few people in here, but possibly not you	00:03
DocScrutinizer05	brolin_empey: press all three concurrently and you'll never again will have missing screenshots	00:04
DocScrutinizer05	LjL-Alps: yep, I already wonder if and how to get it onto N900	00:05
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: hmm that didn't even occur to me, but it sure would be nice. there are some (not very good) things for Android to use it, but remotely	00:06
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DocScrutinizer05	seems to me like the ideal addon for a pentest tool	00:07
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: for pentesting what? i believe it covers neither wifi nor bluetooth	00:08
DocScrutinizer05	or rather, general security audit tool	00:08
mashina	sorry for the dumb question, for I'm just curious: has anyone tried to build a more recent kernel? if not, what's stopping us?	00:08
LjL-Alps	id does cover GSM but ssssh don't tell anyone ;(	00:09
LjL-Alps	it*	00:09
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DocScrutinizer05	pentesting buildings, RFID acess cards, 868MHz - garage door openers, - security cams, whatnot else	00:09
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DocScrutinizer05	mashina: the closed blobs built against 2.6.28	00:10
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: hmm, i guess. i'm content with listening to what the public transport drivers say :P well i'm not, i wish it covered shortwave so i could listen to hams, especially now my scanner broke	00:10
mashina	hack the planet!	00:10
mashina	ls blobs	00:10
mashina	like gsm?	00:11
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DocScrutinizer05	for example, but even more like XPROT (alsa/PA), GPU drivers, DSP drivers, etc pp	00:11
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05, i don't know if the N900 has enough power to deal with the rtlsdr, though...? unless you use it at much less than 3Msps i guess. iirc i can barely decode anything on my EeePC	00:11
DocScrutinizer05	LjL-Alps: yes, it can't handle the datarate needed for decoding arbitrary signals, but you can set up sample rate for anything down to 900ksps	00:12
DocScrutinizer05	they told me	00:13
DocScrutinizer05	which should work	00:13
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: 1Msps is certainly possible at least	00:13
DocScrutinizer05	that's 16Mbps	00:13
DocScrutinizer05	shouldn't be a problem for N900	00:14
DocScrutinizer05	at least on USB level, dunno how complex decoding may get	00:14
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05, plus the overhead for decoding say at least FM	00:14
DocScrutinizer05	FM and AM decoding is probably rather simple	00:16
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05, i haven't used my rtlsdr in a while, but last time i used it the reference "SDR-style" software (aside from GNURadio for people who knew what they were doing, of course) was SDR# on Windows (which, however, is a licensing mess), and http://gqrx.dk/ on Linux	00:16
DocScrutinizer05	http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr	00:17
DocScrutinizer05	gnuradio is fun, particularly the gnu radio companion. I just built me a simple synthesizer (nothing radio at all) ;-D	00:19
DocScrutinizer05	mucht like arts/ladspa or what it been called, just more evolved	00:19
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: that's the main wiki about it yeah, but i figured that'd be the first spot you'd end up on :P also, http://rtlsdr.reddit.com/ at least used to have interesting news	00:19
DocScrutinizer05	much*	00:19
nox-	there also is www.sdr-j.tk/sdrj-manual.pdf and the dab receiver by the same author - www.sdr-j.tk	00:20
DocScrutinizer05	well, waterfall and rtl_fm works now, with a cheesy logilink stick	00:20
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DocScrutinizer05	waiting for proper sticks I ordered	00:21
DocScrutinizer05	Dexatek DK DVB-T Dongle (Logilink VG0002A)	00:21
DocScrutinizer05	...is what I'm using	00:21
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LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: uh that's a new tuner, i didn't know about it	00:23
* LjL-Alps looks for its frequency range		00:24
DocScrutinizer05	anyway such a stick half the size of my thumb, attached to N900, converting it to a 50MHz..2000MHz universal receiver. Sounds appealing to me	00:24
LjL-Alps	ah, meh	00:24
LjL-Alps	it does sound like you'd benefit from getting a proper one :P	00:24
DocScrutinizer05	already ordered	00:24
DocScrutinizer05	I hope so	00:24
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: E4000 chip?	00:24
nox-	i think fc0013 for that one	00:25
nox-	(the logilink)	00:25
LjL-Alps	nox-: which one?	00:25
DocScrutinizer05	yep, and yep	00:25
LjL-Alps	uh	00:25
LjL-Alps	wiki says FC2580	00:26
nox-	there also are now r820t	00:26
LjL-Alps	nox-: yeah that's interesting since it reaches a it into shortwave	00:26
nox-	LjL-Alps, maybe theres a new version of that logilink one then	00:26
nox-	yeah...	00:26
DocScrutinizer05	this cheesy one has fc0013, the ordered ones (terratec Tstick) are E4000	00:26
LjL-Alps	i have an E4000 one, specifically the "original" one that was investigated, it works ok. apparently, another possible advantage with the r820t is that it has no DC spike in the middle for some reason i forget	00:28
DocScrutinizer05	DC spike?	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	jr@saturn:~/rtl> python2 downloads/waterfall.py 142e6 146e6	00:31
nox-	http://www.fasttech.com/products/1254300	00:31
DocScrutinizer05	Found Fitipower FC0013 tuner	00:31
nox-	that looks a bit like mine	00:31
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: err i don't remember the right terms as i'm pretty ignorant about radio :( but, with the E4000 (and afaik, many other SDR setups), if you tune directly on x mhz, then you see noise at and around x mhz, so you have to tune up or tune down from the frequency you actually want	00:31
DocScrutinizer05	aah, maybe that's why this friggin stuff always tells me the frequency is off a few KHz from what I told it	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	jr@saturn:~/rtl> rtl_fm -f 868.3e6	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	Tuned to 868564000 Hz.	00:33
nox-	whats at that freq?	00:33
DocScrutinizer05	remote sensors etc	00:33
nox-	ah	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	my home automation	00:34
nox-	<nox-> http://www.fasttech.com/products/1254300 -> r820t	00:34
LjL-Alps	i have the ezcap eztv668	00:34
nox-	(was linked from reddit)	00:34
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: yes that should be the reason	00:34
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: there's probably an option to tell it to use a different offset if you don't like the default one	00:34
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: also, the current gqrx screenshot on the site shows no DC spike, so maybe latest gqrx version "corrects" it in software, insomuch as that's possible - at least it'd be nice if scanning didn't stop on the DC spike just because the signal appears to be stronger	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	I get an annoying line pattern on waterfall	00:37
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: this shows the DC spike http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:sdr2.png although in my experience it's hardly just a thin line on the waterfall, it takes up much more space	00:37
DocScrutinizer05	I don't have such a nice GUI yet	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	what app is that? windoze?	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	aaah SDR#	00:43
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LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: yes that's SDR#, but gqrx doesn't look much worse (although SDR# certanly has more features)	00:43
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DocScrutinizer05	http://wstaw.org/m/2013/08/20/plasma-desktopmd3743.png is what I got here so far	00:48
mashina	ubrelated but i like what kde is doing with plasma	00:50
mashina	plasma tv, plasma netbook, etc.	00:51
DocScrutinizer05	ohyeah, plasma, the thing that either freezes or segfaults on my KDE4	00:54
DocScrutinizer05	and takes half of desktop with it	00:54
LjL-Alps	hehe	00:55
DocScrutinizer05	apropos desktop. Seems that's not modern anymore, sometimes I can't even find it at all	00:55
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05, you're too stuck in 2012. join 2013.	00:56
mashina	i found kde to be stable for me, but i don't use it much	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	not that I have a look at any desktop too often, way too many fulsize windows opened	00:56
mashina	but whenver I used it, I always liked it	00:56
mashina	have you looked into tiling WMs?	00:56
LjL-Alps	i used to like KDE	00:56
LjL-Alps	3 ;(	00:56
mashina	tiling wms might be the change you need	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	KDE3 was great	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	KDE4 is :-x	00:57
LjL-Alps	yeah	00:57
mashina	i like both	00:58
DocScrutinizer05	http://wstaw.org/m/2013/08/20/plasma-desktopmd3743.png see the moon applet? in KDE3 you could adjust your latitude from -90° to +90°, in KDE4 you can select south and north hemisphere. It's just an example of how whole KDE4 is a crippled POS	00:59
LjL-Alps	well i probably wouldn't choose that particular example, but	01:00
DocScrutinizer05	was the first one I could think of	01:01
DocScrutinizer05	no matter what you pick, i can't find a single topic where KDE4 is an improvement over 3	01:01
LjL-Alps	DocScrutinizer05: you could probably concentrate better on finding better ones if you weren't distracted by plasma/kwin crashing every 30 seconds and making your desktop flash	01:01
DocScrutinizer05	and then that "EEEK no colors please, we're modern!" theme	01:02
DocScrutinizer05	noticed same shite on fremantle, tbh	01:03
LjL-Alps	fads	01:04
LjL-Alps	if the current fad is "colors everywhere", you can be next one will be "strictly black and white", and vice versa	01:04
LjL-Alps	except in the process of changing from one to the other, actual features are dropped because people are all focused on the whole saturation business	01:05
DocScrutinizer05	sigh you're so right	01:05
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DrCode	is it possible to tell skype/gtalk and other chat to use proxy?	07:49
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Macer	wow	08:29
Macer	there has to be something seriously wrong with microb	08:29
Macer	this topping out isnt normal	08:29
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Apic	A wonderful good Morning (UGT)	08:34
brolin_empey	!ugt	08:35
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Macer	well	09:15
Macer	need to figure out how to make marble useful	09:15
Macer	wish there was nokia drive for n900 :-/	09:16
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Macer	maybe i will just try monav	09:23
Macer	the tutorial for marble shows a dir that doesnt even exist for audio instructions	09:23
Macer	ugh. the app manager is suxh a pain	09:25
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SAiF	whats wrong with microb? whats toping out???	09:47
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Macer	seems to max cpu all the time	10:01
Macer	even on simple pages	10:01
Macer	ah well. i am working on modrana now	10:01
Macer	i need a nav app with voice turns that doesnt completely suck	10:01
Macer	modrana seems like the best candidate but unfortunately i'm not driving to figure it out heh	10:02
Macer	and i want to get the ios theme. the default theme is incredibly ugly	10:03
Macer	i'd love nokia drive on my n900. driving with my e7 is a dream	10:03
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Macer	guess the ios theme is in devel :-/	10:05
SAiF	I agree default theme is ugly, but I would like something cool and lite.	10:06
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Macer	well. the theme didnt seem to work anyways	10:12
Macer	not sure how to use it	10:12
Macer	figured i just install it	10:13
Macer	and use it in the config	10:13
Macer	but all i get is default and night	10:13
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LauRoman	MicroB is not the only app to top out the cpu, it's just the way the Cortex A8 in the 900 works. It's rather old, and not that efficient, or more so gtk, qt and xul are not extremly efficient on it.	10:24
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sanova	hi, why claws-mail is not present in new repositories? is it too unstable?	10:28
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Macer	LauRoman: yeah i understand that i just dont remember it being this problematic	10:44
Iridos	trying to do one of the battery full-charge->discharge cycle from http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1053809&postcount=846 ... just to see how much of the battery is still left after the 1-2 years I use it	10:44
Iridos	exciting :P	10:44
Iridos	I mean... actually it's not/should not be exciting, but the constant warnings that the battery is empty and the count-down thingy trigger all excitement-reflexes	10:45
Macer	wth	10:46
Macer	how do i use this modrana theme heh	10:47
Macer	i still only get night and default	10:47
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Macer	how do i extract a .deb with dpkg?	11:04
Macer	i want to see what files this ios theme has	11:04
Macer	it has to be installing the pkg wrong	11:04
Macer	oh nm	11:05
Macer	-x	11:05
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Iridos	Mac3, it's an ar archive with a couple of tar.gz's in it. ar -x some.deb	11:14
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Iridos	hm, didn't know dpkg has an option now to just unpack	11:16
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LauRoman	is there a way to auto start a python script when i use 3g or wif or when i start a certain app? or should i just run it on startup?	11:24
Macer	i found it	11:25
Macer	although i dont see what the "theme" does	11:25
Macer	seems like it is just an icon pack	11:25
Macer	i need to test modrana out some more	11:26
Macer	but from what i can tell trying to pick a pio and drive to it	11:26
Macer	i keep getting no routing data found errors	11:26
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Macer	ah ok i got it	11:30
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Macer	seems like i dont have any monav routing data	11:31
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Macer	guess i have to download all the US data lol	11:33
Macer	i will work on that later... but i managed to get modrana to give me voice instructions somewhere	11:34
Macer	the voice sucks tho heh	11:34
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Macer	wth	11:39
Macer	hm. odd.	11:39
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jdoles	How much bandwidth do you need to call via Skype or VoIP and is that even practical? I have used local wifi once with Skype and I thought it was terrible, latency wise.	12:00
Macer	heh	12:01
Macer	i have an awesome business class cm	12:01
Macer	with wireless phones using a base wired up	12:01
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Macer	and it is still latent	12:02
Macer	it has to go through prism first i suppose	12:02
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DrCode	hi all	12:11
DrCode	I want to make playlist for player	12:11
DrCode	can I make playlist file in my linux and copy it to maemo?	12:12
jdoles	Macer: Skype via a wired (ethernet) connection does run fast and is even better than a normal landline, because of the greater bandwidth.	12:14
Apic	Good Question. Might the Mediaplayer be Part of the Closed-Source-Blob?	12:14
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DrCode	ok	12:17
DrCode	I think I found somthing	12:17
Apic	Good	12:17
MrPingu	The mediaplayer is closed, thats why we have OMP ;)	12:20
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Apic	ktnx	12:22
Apic	It has weird Glitches	12:22
Apic	Where can I find OMP?	12:36
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sixwheeledbeast	~omp	14:22
sixwheeledbeast	infobot: omp is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72156	14:22
infobot	it has been said that omp is Open Media Player	14:22
infobot	sixwheeledbeast: okay	14:22
sixwheeledbeast	does anybody use the "My Location" in the "My availability" section of IM for N900? Just wondering what information it broadcasts and where it's shown on other devices.	14:24
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Apic	sixwheeledbeast: Thanks	14:47
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sixwheeledbeast	Apic: np	14:52
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DocScrutinizer05	~omp	16:24
infobot	rumour has it, omp is Open Media Player	16:24
DocScrutinizer05	~listvalues http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72156	16:25
infobot	Factoid search of 'http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72156' by value (1): omp.	16:25
DocScrutinizer05	FFS	16:25
DocScrutinizer05	~forget _default omp	16:25
infobot	i didn't have anything called '_default omp' to forget, DocScrutinizer05	16:25
DocScrutinizer05	~forget omp	16:26
infobot	i forgot omp, DocScrutinizer05	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~omp	16:26
infobot	omp is probably Open Media Player	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~#maemo omp is also http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72156	16:26
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~omp	16:26
infobot	omp is, like, Open Media Player, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72156	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~literal omp	16:27
infobot	"#maemo omp" is "Open Media Player, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72156"	16:27
DocScrutinizer05	lrn2factoidPLZKTNX	16:28
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Iridos	just had a look at that and... more like http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_Media_Player or even http://maemo.org/packages/view/openmediaplayer/ ?	16:33
Iridos	the starting post seems outdated linking to some kind of horrible /usr/local installer from omp's early times	16:34
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DocScrutinizer05	Iridos: thanks for checking.	16:45
DocScrutinizer05	infobot: no, #maemo omp is http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_Media_Player	16:45
infobot	okay, DocScrutinizer05	16:45
Iridos	welcome :) And of course my motivation was an entirely selfish one, really.	16:53
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DocScrutinizer05	I'm quite hapy about you pointing me at OMP wiki, it confirmed my notion that there's no sound rationale why OMP ever should replace MP in CSSU, since you can easily install and even use the both concurrently and select which one is default system mediaplayer, by editing one single line in a config file	17:18
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ShadowJK	is it feature complete with original?	17:20
FIQ\|n900	!war	17:21
MrPingu	Well, IMO cssu should aim to replace closed bits, if and only if the alternative is feature-complete and stable (as stable as nokia version)	17:23
DocScrutinizer05	MrPingu: alas we have nobody to do decent QA even for urgently needed bugfixes	17:23
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DocScrutinizer05	MrPingu: so any statement of "is stable" is a hoax	17:24
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DocScrutinizer05	MrPingu: and I'm strongly deprecating to mess "with a working system" just to get the benefit of "it's FOSS now", since I for one don't care if it's FOSS as long as I don't have a bug or improvement to fix in it	17:25
DocScrutinizer05	and generally we won't replace _anything_, when the planned replacement as well can coexist	17:26
DocScrutinizer05	offering additional options is fine. Removing anything will happen only when that thing is rogue in any way	17:27
DocScrutinizer05	ShadowJK: seems it is	17:28
ShadowJK	including resume of playback and signaling last playback position to other apps? :-)	17:28
DocScrutinizer05	MrPingu: CSSU is _not_ aiming to forcefeed a supposedly "better" or "nicer" fixed set of applications onto users	17:29
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MrPingu	I see, but it is to get bug fixes onto users where nokia failed. Or not?	17:30
DocScrutinizer05	MrPingu: CSSU is about bugfixes if they are dangerous, and everything else shall be strictly optional, IOW offer additional options to users, not deprive them from stuff	17:30
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DocScrutinizer05	we're not going to do the "new better version: 70% of useless functions finally removed"	17:32
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DocScrutinizer05	if there's a way to increase the number of options in any way, we will prefer that. If there's a suggestion to reduce number of options for users, we usually will reject since there's nothing wrong with options you got	17:34
DocScrutinizer05	so _relacing_ (means deleting) MP by OMP won't happen, since they can coexist, giving CSSU users the option to install/keep and even use either one or even both concurrently	17:35
DocScrutinizer05	s/relac/replac/	17:35
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: so _replacing_ (means deleting) MP by OMP won't happen, since they can coexist, giving CSSU users the option to install/keep and even use either one or even both concurrently	17:35
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DocScrutinizer05	what CSSU might do is to take M(edia)P(layer) out of m(eta)p(ackake) so user can actually uninstall it - sth you can't do so far. Thus increasing options of user, not reducing them	17:37
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DocScrutinizer05	"dear Amazon user: we just uploaded the new improved version of 'Linux unleashed' e-book to your kindle. It comes with option to underline words and highlight passages, is written in new awesome gothic font, and we removed the useless chapter 13. Alas we had to delete your previous version of this book to recover the space for the new improved version" I bet you'd be extremely amused about such message	17:44
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DocScrutinizer05	Amazon indeed sometimes does this or similar nasty. CSSU never should	17:45
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jon_y	"dear Amazon user: We removed have noticed your poor taste and replaced your collection with the more popular twilight series"	17:46
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DocScrutinizer05	ShadowJK: nope, seems that's still missing	17:47
DocScrutinizer05	according to wiki	17:47
jon_y	"dear Amazon user: We noticed you mayy be reading subversive material and replaced your collection with ebooks approoved by the commision of the patriotic homeland"	17:47
DocScrutinizer05	the wiki well might be pretty outdated though	17:48
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jon_y	"Dear Amazon user: We noticed you are reading books native to your own language and replaced your collection with books in our favored language"	17:49
jon_y	hmm, I must be off my meds	17:49
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, thanks for reminder	17:49
DocScrutinizer05	;-P	17:49
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MrPingu	Agreed :P	17:52
MrPingu	On the part of removing it from meta-package	17:52
Mike11	hey people :)	17:52
Mike11	Help, is it just me? or nokia n900 is unable to play youtube videos anymore from the native browser??	17:52
kerio	eeh, it always only kinda worked for me	17:53
kerio	it was always stuttering	17:53
kerio	use cutetube	17:53
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Mike11	kerio: cutetube needs libspeex1, I can't find this package do u have it??	17:55
kerio	so it's not installable? D:	17:56
kerio	report a bug to its maintainer	17:56
Mike11	kerio: I have so many applications that depend on a package that is not available	17:56
Mike11	kerio: I have added maemo extras, maemo extras testing	17:57
Mike11	kerio: still these not solved!	17:57
Mike11	kerio: do u have any idea what to do?	17:57
kerio	so cutetube is in extras-testing, but it's not installable?	17:58
kerio	definetely a bug	17:59
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DocScrutinizer05	damn shite! N900 display turns all black, with only single random gui elements (like cursor, or time in status area, or random other button) sometimes staying visible	17:59
DocScrutinizer05	nothing in syslog :-/	18:00
kerio	graphics glitch	18:00
kerio	reboot!	18:00
DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	18:00
kerio	it happened to me once, too	18:00
DocScrutinizer05	but on a strange logical level	18:00
DocScrutinizer05	well, not too strange	18:00
DocScrutinizer05	it just loses all video content, then renders some few elements anew	18:01
DocScrutinizer05	sigh	18:01
DocScrutinizer05	reboot time	18:01
kerio	in my case, it drawed whenever something updated	18:01
DocScrutinizer05	exactly	18:01
kerio	glad to see that failure modes are at least common	18:01
kerio	:D	18:01
DocScrutinizer05	but WHAT THE HELL, when xterm goes black after it refreshed the white background when I hit enter, then the screen goes all black ooh wait a tiny scrollbar comes up(!) instead on very right side of screen, and fades out "slowly" while rest of screen all bleck in a millisecond	18:04
DocScrutinizer05	meh!! reboot	18:05
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DocScrutinizer05	which brings me to another pita: since quite some time VoIP doesn't go online when device associates to my home WLAN. When I however disconnect and reconnect to same WLAN a 30s later (or any other arbitrary moment), everything is pretty fine	18:12
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DocScrutinizer05	coming home -> device roams from GPRS to WLAN -> VoIP says "not connected, network error". Disconnect, reconnect -> VoIP shows green dot	18:14
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DocScrutinizer05	s/coming home/booting device/ if you like	18:14
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders wth is the difference between booting up device and it scans for wlans and connects to my home wlan, and me going to "internet" and disconnecting wlan, device scans for wlans, I tap on my home network and it connects to it		18:17
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DocScrutinizer05	ummmm... might it send a DHCP-release to my router when I disconnect and then get a new lease when I reconnect? but only a lease-renew on same lease when I reboot and it auto-connects?	18:20
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DocScrutinizer05	if that's the case, this might cause troubles with still kept-alive NAT sessions that are not known to SIP and only get torn down in NAT when the device actually actively disconnects?	18:22
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ShadowJK	I'd be surprised if nat gets torn down by a proper disconnect	18:26
DocScrutinizer05	the nat sessions	18:27
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ShadowJK	yes	18:27
DocScrutinizer05	it's actually aninteresting question if the NAT gets to know about clients losing the DHCP lease	18:28
ShadowJK	It takes effort to implement, custom modifications to the kernel networking stack, and is not needed	18:29
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ShadowJK	so my bet is on "no"	18:29
DocScrutinizer05	hmm, not needed?	18:29
ShadowJK	they expire eventually on their own anyways	18:29
ShadowJK	and get updated/changed if they collide with a new client	18:30
DocScrutinizer05	if you have port forwards then those wont, and you don't want another device gettings same internal IP (port forwards are always to internal IP, never to MAC or device name) and inheriting the port forwards, or do you...? hmmm	18:31
DocScrutinizer05	STUN might get confused anyway, aiui	18:32
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sixwheeledbeast	FYI the factoid did not respond when prompted so I "made" one. It then shows the previous factoid at the time of writing new one. A link is much better than just "Open Media Player" so it was left. No learning required".	18:33
DocScrutinizer05	I think I got this problem since I got two (instead of one) NAT-routers between me and the internets	18:34
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sixwheeledbeast	I also agree with MrPingu, It seems some items are replaced and others not. It's not fair that what goes it to CSSU is not clear IMO. Hence the thread I started. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90862	18:36
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DocScrutinizer05	the nasty thing about most NATs: even if you have a port forward <publicIP>:5060 -> <localIP>:5060, you always get <localIP>:5060 -> <publicIP>:$random-port as a NAT session when local machine connects out to the internet	18:37
DocScrutinizer05	sixwheeledbeast: a) obviously much learning required since you didn't even get what I did to fix what you did. ~omp is a channel-specific factoid, you can't redefine it the way you tried	18:39
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DocScrutinizer05	b) the unfortunate fact that e.g. cmaerau-ui2 got into CSSU unconditionally always been blamed as a huge mistake by me. It never should've happened and it's for sure no good logic to use it as rationale for doing same mistake again and again, to be "fair"	18:40
DocScrutinizer05	actually purging perfectly working non-hazardous binaries from any users device, to replace them by some alternative unconditionally, just to "be fair" is as unfair as it gets to the user	18:42
Mike11	kerio: I found the package here http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/non-free/s/speex/libspeex1_1.2~rc1-1maemo7%2b0m5_armel.deb and downloaded and installed manually, now cutetube is working, do u know why wasn't it installing normally??!!	18:42
kerio	idk	18:43
sixwheeledbeast	calculator was also replaced it's not just we are talking about nicocam.	18:43
DocScrutinizer05	CSSU is not the playground for devels, where the one can start to cry since it's not "fair" when his project isn't forced onto all users' devices just like his "opponent's" project was	18:44
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: nicocam is fixing severe bug in the stock one. please stop that.	18:45
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freemangordon	sixwheeledbeast: what bugs are OMP and replacement clock-ui fixing?	18:45
DocScrutinizer05	CSSU uis about users and providing a maximum user friendly and FOSS spirited clean way for keeping their devices/systems intact	18:46
DocScrutinizer05	freemangordon: where's the bug ticket?	18:46
sixwheeledbeast	Exactly. there are small bugs in all these foss replacement otherwise why spend time replacing them.	18:46
freemangordon	sixwheeledbeast: besides being FOSS replacements	18:46
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: on BMO	18:46
freemangordon	just a minute	18:46
DocScrutinizer05	what are those severe bugs in stock camera that are so hazardous that you can't allow a any unaware user to continue using the stock camera?	18:47
DocScrutinizer05	does it corrupt data on user's storage? Block 911 phonecalls? Burn out the flash LEDs?	18:48
DocScrutinizer05	violate copyright? or even introduce malware or open up vulnerabilities?	18:48
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DocScrutinizer05	forced purge is allowable only for dangerous apps or programs	18:50
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: recording a pretty much unusable video is sever bug in my book	18:50
DocScrutinizer05	no, it's a minor inconvenience and no reason at all why a program must get revoked so nobody can use it anymore	18:51
freemangordon	being unable to record video is a minor inconvenience? omg, I am out	18:52
DocScrutinizer05	you say you got the right to force me to not further use stock camera since you say it's buggy?	18:53
freemangordon	bug 7062	18:53
povbot_	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/7062 Video camera does not record smoothly	18:53
DocScrutinizer05	I really don't get what#s wrong with you	18:53
freemangordon	this is the bug in question	18:54
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DocScrutinizer05	mhm, is it a showstopper? something that has any impact beyond the bug itself?	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	if not then it's no justification to purge the app from all existing devices, no matter if you provide an alternative or not	18:55
DocScrutinizer05	let me put it this way: when we want to force replacement (instead of option to pick one or the other) of any app, then we need a reason good enough to even remove the original app when we wouldn't be able to provide a replacement.	18:56
freemangordon	I guess 44 votes for that bug are giving CSSU team good enough reason	18:58
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DocScrutinizer05	if we can tolerate users to continue use stock app until we can provide the replacement, then it's up to user to decide if he wants to accept our alternative once we provide it or if they rather want to keep the original	18:58
freemangordon	and honestly, I won't argue with you about nokicam anymore	18:58
DocScrutinizer05	not 1 million votes for any bug give a reason to purge the app	18:59
freemangordon	both of us are just wasting time	18:59
DocScrutinizer05	the only valid reason to purge an app is a hazardous bug or malware or vulnerabilty/securtity-threat	19:00
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DocScrutinizer05	listen buddy, I paid for stock camera app. Who do you think you are to delete it from my device and replace it by sth you think is beter for me, without even asking me?	19:01
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DocScrutinizer05	you as well could delete it from my device without replacing it, it wouldn't be any worse and i'd be exactly as angry on you	19:02
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DocScrutinizer05	if you don't have a damn good reason not to ask me if I'm content with your replacing action (like "device will explode at random, when using this app. So we deleted it on all devices we could reach"), I think you're a rogue guy	19:04
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DocScrutinizer05	I honestly don't get it what makes you think your approach to purge apps at random was any sane	19:06
DocScrutinizer05	at least as long as we got an easy alternative: allowing user to choose	19:07
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DocScrutinizer05	absolutely no arguing about how many votes on any bug can make a valid exuse not to give user freedom of choice when we could easily (or even not so easily) do it.	19:09
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DocScrutinizer05	and before you start again with your argumentation chain about workload on devels was too high when we give user the freedom of choice: when devels can't handle this simple problem that's actually handlable in max one hour of additional work, then they better stay away from maemo completely, rather than ruining a good system with halfarsed "fixes"	19:12
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DocScrutinizer05	for e.g. OMP there's 0, I repeat: ZERO sound rationale why it ever should purge stock mediaplayer in an unconditional way that user can't opt-in or opt-out	19:14
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DocScrutinizer05	for camera-ui2 there been exactly as litte rationale why user can't have the choice to pick the camera app he prefers	19:19
DocScrutinizer05	nothing wrong with replacing all you seem fit with alternative improved CSSU versions, as long as user at least can opt-out and reinstall the original. But to forcefully purge sth from user's system just because we have an alternative we think is better, that's outright bold and an offense to FOSS spirit	19:23
DocScrutinizer05	how about watsapp nuking SMS functionality for example? Don't we think it#s way better since it doesn't cost use money and it's FOSS unlike the SMS lib in ISI stack?	19:26
DocScrutinizer05	where do we stop forcing our idea onto user?	19:26
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: and there lies the problem with our communication - you talk about FOSS spirit, I talk about software product which I(and the others) support. The fact that this SW product is FOSS (in most of its parts) doesn't change the fact that most of the users don't give a shit about maemo being FOSS or not. As long as it works.	19:27
freemangordon	just look at yaparri thread and see what kind of users own n900	19:27
freemangordon	yappari even	19:27
DocScrutinizer05	maemo is no product.	19:27
freemangordon	oh, it is	19:28
DocScrutinizer05	no, and even board had to learn this	19:28
freemangordon	it is what nokia sold you installed on n900	19:28
DocScrutinizer05	it's a project, no product	19:28
freemangordon	I am speaking in terms of CSSU	19:28
DocScrutinizer05	and even when it was a product, it's not up to CSSU to manage it	19:28
freemangordon	not in general	19:29
DocScrutinizer05	freemangordon: ooh, so all the extras stuff is not maemo?	19:29
DocScrutinizer05	uhuh	19:29
freemangordon	from CSSU POV maemo is SW product	19:29
DocScrutinizer05	wrong	19:30
freemangordon	IMO	19:30
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, in your oppinion, that is flase. sorry	19:30
freemangordon	I could be wrong, but how is that I feel it. And that is how I try to behave	19:30
freemangordon	*that is how	19:30
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DocScrutinizer05	I bought N900 (and even N810) because it is _not_ a product that some obscure dude or company decides everything for me	19:31
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: but you're not the only n900 user CSSU should take care of.	19:31
DocScrutinizer05	and I think most of maemo users did because of that	19:32
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freemangordon	I don't think so, again, look at yappari thread	19:32
DocScrutinizer05	and even if there are some users who think they want someone to do decisions for them, it's not legit to force same decisions to all the other users	19:32
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freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: lets agree to disagree and leave merlin1991 to make the decisions about CSSU :)	19:33
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DocScrutinizer05	by same rationale you could force all supermarkets to remove everything but snickers from their assortment, since most users buy snickers anyway	19:34
DocScrutinizer05	freemangordon: merlin1991 DID that decission, 18 months ago	19:34
DocScrutinizer05	it's you and another few guys who ignore that and argue against the consequences from that decision ever since	19:35
freemangordon	well, me another few guys is all of CSSU team	19:35
DocScrutinizer05	oh, so suddenly merlin1991 isn't cssu team anymore, and he's not supposed to do resp enforce that decision?	19:36
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: don't twist my words please	19:36
DocScrutinizer05	you're twisting	19:37
freemangordon	merlin1991 is the maintainer and afaik there is nothing in CSSU done without his approval	19:37
freemangordon	however, I have to run	19:38
* freemangordon is afk		19:38
DocScrutinizer05	we decided to make all apps (optional-)alternative that have any chance to get handled that way. This decision been taken 18months(?) ago in a public meeting	19:38
DocScrutinizer05	there's simply nothing to argue about anymore, anless you again start with threatening to no further contribute to CSSU when we don't force alternatives onto users without giving them a choice like every linux user has in every other sane distro	19:40
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DocScrutinizer05	I explained in epic painstaking length why the whole problem is in metapackage and that it's up to devels to ship their projects with a proper install file that has all the dependencies they need (like is mandatory on every other distro that doesn't have this insane metapackage). Merlin will care about the rest which is: "remove package from mp" and maybe even "add one apt commandline to a shellscript that at some point during CSSU	19:43
DocScrutinizer05	update get executed"	19:43
DocScrutinizer05	as soon as a package isn't entangled to mp anymore, user is free to uninstall it via apt and install the original stock package instead. I don't see _any_ reason why we mustn't do that. I.E. why we should deprive user from his opportunity to use apt to uninstall and install packages to all her/his liking, not limited by any insane metapackage that defines what has to be there and what can't get in due to conflicts with the stuff that has	19:49
DocScrutinizer05	to be there.	19:49
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DocScrutinizer05	all this has been discussed during weeks in that period 18 months ago, and finally merlin1991 and me elaborated on how to handle this problem in CSSU for the future. None of you had any objections, so it been agreed upon. Ever since you try to roll back that decision which kinda makes me angry	19:53
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* DocScrutinizer05 notices a quite strange change in general mentality and basic values during last few years. People more and more asking that some authority outlaws or otherwise erradicates all alternative ways or thoughts or preferences that those people consider aren't the true and right ones. Smoking. Alcohol. Recently even meat meals in dining facilities - they are not asking for vegan meals, they demand not offering meat meals. What the heck		20:14
DocScrutinizer05	is this odd mindset?	20:14
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Lithdk	Yo so I finally got my sim card for my data plan. Bit of a question though, how do I set it up for 3g, internet, whatever. I am connected and can go on to sites, but is that the connection that's included in my data plan. There's a connection requiring no passwd in the list called "Telmore Internet"	21:00
Lithdk	Using this connection draws on my dataplan right?	21:00
DocScrutinizer05	prolly	21:01
Lithdk	Alrighty, thanks	21:02
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HtheB	MohammadAG: Sup	22:33
HtheB	long time no speak	22:33
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Cor-Ai	Long time no siege!	22:38
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WizardNumberNext	could I have an option to flash root without modem (cmt?) again? Is it --flash-only ?	23:20
DocScrutinizer05	yep	23:29
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DocScrutinizer05	--flash-only rootfs	23:29
DocScrutinizer05	iirc	23:29
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WizardNumberNext	chears I think it works. I worked it out, but wanted to have confirmation	23:37
WizardNumberNext	just did full flash	23:37
WizardNumberNext	with emmc	23:37
WizardNumberNext	now I need backupmenu and kp	23:37
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DocScrutinizer05	first of all check /opt	23:41
WizardNumberNext	then I can simply get to backup anytime	23:41
WizardNumberNext	fsck?	23:41
DocScrutinizer05	since usually you must flash rootfs _after_ eMMC	23:41
WizardNumberNext	actually I did flash root, emmc, root	23:42
DocScrutinizer05	to make it re-optify aka populate-the-/opt	23:42
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, fine :-.)	23:42
WizardNumberNext	it lost few things so I flashed rootfs again	23:42
DocScrutinizer05	good	23:42
DocScrutinizer05	that's the foolproof way	23:42
WizardNumberNext	so that is the reason for emmc, rootfs not otherwise	23:42
WizardNumberNext	anyway n900 is pretty much foolproof device - you can flash it anytime and it works	23:43
DocScrutinizer05	yes, basically that's correct	23:43
WizardNumberNext	I love it - I bricked it something like 3-4 times already - no problem to unbrick it	23:43
DocScrutinizer05	rhere's one way to permanently mess up stuff, but you hardly ever run into it, and even less likely by accident	23:44
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WizardNumberNext	oh can I ask hot put lines from sources.list?	23:44
WizardNumberNext	into ham	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	last one who had that problem got the nickname NAND-tester by this channel's users	23:44
WizardNumberNext	as I have backup of /etc and others on laptop I would like to write it down to n900 on ham	23:45
DocScrutinizer05	;-D	23:45
DocScrutinizer05	sorry?	23:45
WizardNumberNext	I have backup of etc, so sources.list is there as well. I want to add catalogues to ham from it	23:46
WizardNumberNext	need to learn it anyway	23:46
DocScrutinizer05	errr, only valid automated methos to add catalogs to ham is via .install files	23:47
DocScrutinizer05	method*	23:47
WizardNumberNext	no, I mean manual way	23:47
DocScrutinizer05	open HAM, go to menu "catalogs"	23:47
DocScrutinizer05	click "add catalog"	23:47
WizardNumberNext	just need to know how to enter repos from sources.list into ham fields	23:48
DocScrutinizer05	http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel#How_to_activate_Extras-devel -- other repos likewise	23:49
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